House Of Lords, Thursday,...
The Times, 1824-04-09T00:00:00

*A rettirn-fromr the offi~ce o-t - Ch'amberlain of London of the reve- nue asnd expendituie of the Orphans' Fuand was presented at the bar. EarlIF6RTESta5E presented four patitions fromn difibrent partsl of the ceuhty~ of Devon ; three we uniderstood were against the con- tinuance of negr slaver, adone against thae duties on coals car- riedca tws A petition agis sveywsaso p re-sentedl by the marquis ofDIow.SHRE, from Di-ibridge, in tile county of Down. Lord PRUDHOE presented a petition from o~wners and cu piers of land in Northamberlndagiscetnclus in the wool bill. On the motion of the Earl of KnIGSTON, a return was otplerea of the names of the sheriff,i and sub-sheriffs of the counties of Cork and Roscommon, from 11110 to.- the present time. The noble earl also presentedit petition from the landholders of Killigrif, in the county of Tipperary a ins thettecommutation bil. The pe- titioners, among other t%ngs, complained that there was no cllurchi in the parish. - STATE OF IRELAND. The Earl of DARNLEY, on the order of the day being read, rose and movedl the reading- of the following paragraph of His Mla- testy's speech, delivered at the openiing of the present sesslon:-"-1 In .ireland, which has for somne time past been the subject of His Mla. 5esty's particular solicitude, there are many indications of amnend- ment, and -His Majesty relies upon your continued endeavours to secure the welfare aind happineas of that part of the united kingdom." After. the~ clerk -id read the paragraph. the noble Earlyroceeded to addlress the house; but we are sorr, from the very, indistinct manner in which hc was hear beow th bar that our report of his speechl must necessarily be imperfect. His Lord- ship began by alluding *to the great impotance of- thle subject which, in te dachrgeo hi duy, hbadundrtakern to bring forward. Of its difficulty and magnitude he wasq wellaae n ecudasr their lord.liips that 'he was no less aware of his inability to do it justice. iNevertheless, as no othier noble lord better qua fed had phuli roper to call their loreiships' attention to the state of Ilat,ehad net hesitated to come forwardl, and should not shrinklrfrom thetask helid imposed on himself. 'What he pro. posedato do was to give an outtline of the statte olfIrelaiid. A great many details must occasionally come under the view of the house-, but his present object was to direct their lordsisips' attention to thegeneral condition ot- that counitry. The~ subject, it was true, bad frequently been brought before the. house, but the m-ore he con- sidered it. the more and more was he convincedl that unless their lordships -were prepared to look at the question fairly, and to adopt measures withi regard to Irelanid very difierent from any that hiad hitherto been resorted to, no essentiailgoeti could be done. In pres- ing on their lord.ships' attention the necessity of suchli measuires, he -was afraid he shouild haLve to tres9pass long-er on thieir timte than he could wish ; but in asking their iNdulgesic for the time he should occupy, he entreatedt them to consie th sbect and the person -who addressed them.- One principal reason w1hich induced fiim to bring this business forward at thi-s moment was the pre-sent state of the British domninions generally. The state of this part of the united kingom as n eery espct louishiing. Great Britain pres3ented a rearkale sectcle f prsperty:witht m_anufactures increas- ing,agriultre iprovng,and ommrce carried to an extent un- know toanyothr ntio; wih rch oregn ossssins enjoying pro- tecionandsecrit,whle heatenior ofPariamntand thle country are diectd o te aeliraionof hecondition of the slaves; yet,in the midstof all those inestimable adatags urnaet andIdearest connexion existed in a most unsatisfactr cnionl a state of disorder and wretchedness- as bad as an ato uoepresented. Considering, then, the happy, situiatio oftecutyupon the whole, the presenit must be allowed to be a most fvuale ino- iment for the discuission of the state of that unfortunate part of it whicht formed an exception to the general prosperity. There seemed to be nothing now to prevent their lordships from taking a large and statesman-like view of this great question. Mluch veniained to be doue to tranquillize Ireland. Far was it from his intention to cast any reflection on thea present Government of that country. The noble marquis who was at its heatl lie hadi the ho- :uoutrof calling his friend. Even in childhood he hrad been taught to look uap to him ; respect for himn was mixed with his earliest as- sociations; and he had alwavs viewed his proigress with more tdin Usual partiality. He could ntor, howeyer, overlook condutct in the Irishr Goveranmentwhich appeared contrary to the principles whici hiis n3oble friend hadi always wished to enforce. He did not, however, pean to ray that the noble marquiis could have done better than he hiad dene. Oa- the contrary, he was conviniced thiat every am-eliora- tion which circumnstances permitted hadl been accomplishied ; and surely nothing could more strongly exemplify the distracted state of Ireland andI the necessity of iHquiry, tItan the fact that t'ne noble mnarqutis had become unpopular with thie opposite parties who di- vided that countr.y. The reason of this wvas, thiat the appointment of the noble matrquis as chiief of the government and the visit of his Majstyhadexited hopes which were disapnointed, and which had bee folowd b muh irittio. Te pes~t Government of Ire- lan ha, i hs lrdsip' oinin, ndevored to benefit. Ireland by vrios cllaera mesurs. n atempt had been made to ren- der he ith sytemles veatius,andvarious other beneficial mea. sure ha ben tied.He as frad, owever, that their lordsahips woul be again elle uon to pass severe measures, to whichl, usuchi as he deprecae them, he had felt himself hounid to assent in conseqec ftestate of the country. He did not say whetheri epesn state of Ireland the constahulary bill would be ncsay Onthat subject hie wished theirIlord- shlips to look attertrson the table, and they, would find that the greater part of the riots and muirders hicfih disgraced that unhappy country were conemitted by or owving to tie conduct of men who were appointed conservators of the peace. Niothiing could be more deplorable than tUse inefficiency of all the partial measures which lietd been adopted to settle Ireland ; and what could snore strongly prove than this state of things the necessitv of acting on some mo egnral'and sound principle of' policy ? Wvhiile this ~~nty prsentd a ictue ofhappness, Ireland, withi 7,000,000 of po~ an evey failit forcommerce, was in a state of g~an hada suerabndace of capital, and some of it fin it wa toIreaud bu nohin bt grood govern. was necessary trs encourage meni to embrr nrd rnarcl tural iutprovemenbs. Unfortunately, par-ty spirit was a hsmmn higher in Ireland tln.Ti it had been at anyv forrmer period, and in such a situation tranqufuj.ity was not to be e-xpected. On this occa- sion he woulfl not enter iniuo thie details of the past. AJIlhe wished ,was that their loirdships sbotthd refresh their memories with the his- tory of Ireland. Of those whio had read the history, of rreland he would ask whether the annals of aniy enuIntryin the woirld ever ecbi-i bited so much of eppression on the one hand and of suffering on the other ? From the time of Henry Ir. to George IV. that country had co-nstanaly been governed by principle.4 of harshness and asperity. These was not in the hiistory of the world such an exam-ple of dis- cord; for the distinction betwveen English and Itishi, and between Cathoric and Protestant, had been mlaintained with unceasing in- veeayev .sne the conquest. Party spirit gave birth to con- stant irritation and to frequent acts of violence and injustice. Every endeavour was doubtless made to administer the Jaws impar- tially; still there was not in their adminiistration that perfect impar-. tiality which ougbt to be observed. The noble earl then alluded to' Catholic emancipation,which he unserved ought to be made a cabinet mneasure. Every. one of his M1ajesty's suibjects was entitled to the enjqyrnent of eq6xl rights, unIessit coutld be proved that there would he danger in admitting theni to such enjoyment. It was plain, how.. ever, from experience, that no 4langer was to be apprehended from the Catholics, and that it was -altogether to be anticipated from the other side. But,twhatever difficulty any of their lordiships miglht ageein thisquestion, it could not be disputedlthat the present timie, when therstate of the ceuntryvwas most prosperous, and when its re. 1ations withi foreign powers pronsised mnany years of peace,was onein ,which it cold befairly considered and cooly discussed. He there. fore most earnestly conjured tleir lordships to reflect whethier itwouild not be practicable to adopt some great and general measure which s'hauldI include Catholic emancipation as one of i ts principa'l featui'es. Muc, h acnowedgd, ad eendon bythe present Government in he ay f aseiraton,butnon ofthemeasures resorted to had secretary there 300 years ago. In oeo i etr htmnn person said, "I wonder that no cr stknt aeta country (Ireland) have a better Governmient ; but such is the sad fate and destiny, of that land, that -no measure devised there for the public goocl will prosper," &c. In thia respect Irelard was littlemended. In spite of allithe mneasures whicli had been taken, the state of the country was much the same as in the reign of Bliza. 'beth. Of the trthof this ohservationhe could give their Iotdshmips too many proofs. He lookedI to Catholic emancipation as a great. me~ans 4CI conciliation. At the same time he did not pretend to say that 3llevils would be removed by that grand measure. He did not ,expect tbatwhichroughttoGbe thefoundation stone couldlalso bemiade the crown of the building. Itwas generaly supposed tbatdlfFerences Sn the Cabinetformed the great obstacle to this question. Ministers could not. agree upon bringing it forward and keeping their places 4c.. cord-ingtothieir present system. Another rea,son assigneclfor not pro, lposing it was diffbMtlidt5aU10g illelCatholics tliemnselyes and themnis. conduct of the'more .vt9lent partof that body- He would however, Ask those who brought foxward this excuse whethier the 1~rotcstants, were- not equally liable to thie charge of misconduct? The violence on the side of the Protestants was not confined to the lower orders. He hed seen patpers written by a cler.gyman of the Established Church, whichi contained the moat disgusting ribal- dry againstthe Catholics. The oonduet of the Orange parties was too ?constant asource of irritation, aind the spirit of that art could not be too strongly discountenanced end disavowed by the Gyovernment. lWhen their lordships liad reflected on thesg thtings and roany other causes of discontent which existed in Ireland, he would aslr, them wliether they thought the Cathiolics wrere the only persons to blanie?p Nothing could exceed the hostility of thle party of which he had spoken to the Catholics. By Orangamen, Catholics and Jews were regarded with equal abhorrence. While some or~ the clergy partici. 3pated in this ho.stility,thiere were on the other hand hiigh aiid ho- nourable examples of a contrary spirit. A right reverend pre-. late, well known for his amiable qualities, lied, he was hiappy to gay it in-Vis presenase, by his conduct and his cnarges to the clergy, of his diocess, displayed the true and genuine spirit of Chzistianity. If all persous who possessed powver and influ- ence had so acted, hiow different wo',slia have been the state of Ire. landli Hewouldcalluponthiat wortlsyprelateandhisright reverend brethren near him to continue to act in such a maltner as would con- .eiliate the country.. They, would thus ya llayth rnmosjities which :is?raeteti the country, anti .poye that with their faith thle tepe Spirit of rdigion was united. -The noble earl next adverted to the state of *he dxbrch, and observed,that there was agreat disproportioni between its reveniLes and tbe duties ofthe clergy, Whathe said on this sub- -ect bad to application to Great Britain, but to the church of Ire- land. In Englalld the splendour of the hierarchy was a consistent w.companimeot to the splendour of the dtrone. But though no sueh splendomir was on that ground called for in Irelaud, what was the state of the es4iblishment in that country ? In Ireland, there were 7,000,009 of.people not one half of whom were Protestants, and yet that country -laui to maintain 4 archbishops and 18 bishops. The nextppoint to whick he wished to cali their lordships' attention, was that most important subject, education; and had not the other house taken the lead, he should nave wished and recommended that a commission should have be3ni constituted to take the whole of that vital queation into it consideratio-. Aluch would doubtless depend on the persons who ehoull be appointed to the commission, for if they were imbued, with those stroig prejudices, unfortunately so irevalepi in Ireland, little good cupid be expected from it. 1t was mnst unfortunate for that country, that every system of education there had been putsed on afalse basis. Their lord- ahips were aware, that in 1823 the Protestant charter schools -were ,established there. The real object wac not the education of the people,but to proselyte the country. These institutions had produced comparatitve little advantage. aud by producing a spirit of opposi- tion, they'had in fimctdone a great deal of injury. Another seecies of schoolsF which .t existed in Irelanld for a long perio, he believedl since the time of Henry niIr w aas the diocesan schools; butibefore these or any other establishiments for education could become useful, it vas absolutel-necessary to do away the im- presuion from shseisaind of tbe Bocisl Catholic that the intentior was to' make proselvtes He was perfectly wonvincea that no great extended. beeiilefFects could be produced by any sys. tern,to which such a suspicion attached. Jlie came now, to a part of the subject most worthy of their lordships' attention-be meant that important point, the conditio,n of the people -of that country. There were miany circumnstances: whIch had concurred, to reduce them to the wretchea state to which they now were; amongst others,the introduction of potatoe.sasansarticleo fGdeilyraise,bad by natural .and necesary consequence,produced a numerous popu.. lation ; the patch of grouad which fturnishied the foodI producing at the samie time the feael to boil the pot. The most obvious remedy to relieve the distresses of the superabuindant populatiah appeared to him to be the fuirnishiing them with employment. Unhappily th state of circumstanices in'thett respect was very different in Irelnd from what it was 'in this country: here the peasatit was always sureof procuring aday'swork,but tliere,from thetotalwantof capital, -the cae was extremiely diffeient.There was also another~circumstlince which would be worthyv of attention, should their lordships be in- duced to agree with hini in the motion with which he should con- clude,-it wras the minute subdivisioa of' land which pr.vailed. in Ireland, and to which, in his opinion., much of the mise.ry, of the population was to be traced. This evillhd efae,be nrae by a le-gislative measure (the grant of the elective franchise to the Roman Catholics), whichb, from the greatest bo-on that could be con- ferred, was thus,by that fatal influence which blightea every measure! intenided for thegoodof thatcountry,beeniconverteatiito an engine forI agg-ravating all theother evilstrhatpressiedupon it.Forthe truthof this hecappealed to the noble earlopposite. Indeed, it nilghteasilybe sup- posed, that to incerease hils influenc-e every gentleman would be anxious to make tihe greatest numb-er of freeholders on his estate, that beinig the only manufacture he was possz'ssed of. In any ex- tended arrangement whichb their lordships mighit be induced to adopt, it wouldi be a fair subject of n gtiation on the one ha,nd, for advantages to be given to the XmnCtois to induce them, on the ot'her hamd, to reiqiha p of that fatal privilege which had been grantedt hm hr was another topic to which he must adetiawchtmitbesp posed thiat h(- ind somne personal itrs.I osdrn h c-auses of the evils which afflicted Ireadgrtsrsshdbnlid. and with some justice on the non-reiec flnlrs h ol lord who seconded t'ie address at the openinig of h eso a distinguished between legitimate ana jiegitimsate absente,adn the lacter class he had placcd these whoe had vreat landed roetyi Enigland as wvell as in the sister kingdom. INLr an thatthegreat.landed proprietors of thatrcounte were legitmae bsn tees. But what~v-erimight be the extent of'the evi thu oil~ ond there could be nodoubtthiat itwvastheindispensabledutyoftsesh did not reside on their estates to visit their property occasionally, to encouirage industry, andto le,sdtheir aidin amelioratinigtlie condition of the people. The'efvbets of individgals might certainly effect a great deal, bilt the Government ought also t.o assist. And if ever there was a case which stood as an exception to general rules- a case in which the poinciple- o plitical econtory ottght to he laid aside in order to save the country from the greatett dlangers, it was the cas of freliipd at pesent. He therefore strongly' urged the noble earl at the head of lis M5ajesty's Government to use every ineans withiin his power, though even contrary to the ge. neral rules of political economy, to promoie the indu3t ry, of the people of that country: and with this view, he (the 'Earl of Darni- icy)hoped the bounty on that manufacture which had begun to flourish there (hie meanit thie coarse linens) would not. be withidrawn. He feared the resideo,t proprietors had not been sufficiently imipressed with the necessity of malking the public wvorks, roads, &C,a means of beneficially einplorinv the p-ople; betA on the contrary, the system of turning 'sac iworksp to private advantage liatd prey-ailedi to a very great extent. The 'noblicarl in support of that assertion here read an extract from a report (thetitle of wl4ich we could niot catch), and also the opinion of Mlr. Gilmore, an ~mi,- nent engineer, to the samle effect. In continiuation, the noble earl said, it wyas clear th at every plau- t'or the jr'qprovement of that cot rn- try must be nug'atry, if tnhVse who ought to lbe its guardians and protectors thuts f~ailed in their duty. If every suggestion that lie had mnaeweeaoptd, t as til eidet tatno permnaiientgood could be eftcted or Ireand wilst tat qustioncontinued floati.ng wh ich hadagiate, ad wuldconinu toagiatethe prople,whilst selarge a prtin o thm lbouetinudr rstrctions and disabilities. Hfe view to othier alterations and improvemntsi i huliteiele arrived wlhen the house ouight to take it ssror~isdrto the church establislhmernt of Ireland, hwvrdiaitm ujc inightbecoiisidered. Ilie thouxght also teeuainn t&ne lioration of theconidition of the peopleouglit to form aprominentpart of any inquiry to be now inistituted. Ile was Qne of' those who was s%anguinecenouighto expect great results from.His llajesty?s gracious visit to Ireland ; but in this he hiad, in common withi others, to regret his disappointment; andl as thlat and every other plan calcu- lated for the benefit of that country hind proved nugatory, he thought it highi time that their lordships should now have recouzse to more efFe~ctive mieasures. Let their lordships consider the vast expense of men and money which was niow necessary in order to keep Ire- lanudiii astate of even moderate traniquillity. Thecre was at the pee. senit momenit a force of about 24,000 memi required for that purpose-- a very large proportion of the military, force' of the' emip Ire to be emn ployed in one part of' it. This, hiowever, 'would fit be all whiichi wouldI be necessary, and he predicted, that .if thie' Govern- muent aild not resort to oilier means besides the ironi sway of thie sword, iot only wouild 24,000 men, but even 0,000 would be in- sufficient to secure the tranquillity Of that part of thie upiied king- doin. (Hear.) Let theier lordsthips also consider that 1lirane was now in possesujion of' Spain, Could their lordships e-xpect that if any hostile feelings arose between that country and EniglaRd, she wouldl not be disposed to take advq.itage of thie discontentit ivhich prevailed in Iteiand.-discontentps,whic must continue to in-, Crease, if Ireland cositinued to be zovenedL by tike system under whielm shie had so long grosaued, andl againat whbich sire 'had so in- effectually complained ? Itwsbcuse he was anxious to have an end put to that system-it was because lie wishied to alter the plan of tbo3p political Sangrados who in every emer- gency hadl still recourse only to bleeding and hot water, that he should submit hisnpesen moin fie telt conivinced that by other I,tO,W.U lu .,ULas IUX-fl4crt DCC11 yntIr; In.1- mnent of Ireland, that country might be issade a Teal and efficient support to thle empire. By an endeiAvour to improve'their co4dition, the Sovereign ivouId find them as warni-hearted and devoted a set of subjects as any in the emnpire; by a contrary proceeding, a spirit of discontent wvould be nourished, which would materially retard the prosperity of the country generaliy, If he knew anythling of the Irish character, there was nothing which it could bear worse thai. contumely aBd neglect ; the being deprived of what they considered their rights would not affect themi so much as being altOgether neglected, and having every attempt at amneli- oratinig their condition passedl tl~regarded. As long as such a sys- tem of ne-glect was acted upon, their lordships might rest assured that nothing bat discontent and disaffectiorn would exist in tilat coun- try : theretore he again and again assured their lordships, now that the state of the country afforded so fit' an opporitunity for such an inquiry, not to let that opportunity go by unire,garded, but to apply themselves sieriously to the consideration of what might be the fittest remedty for those evils of which they 'could not dieny the existence The noble earl concluded bY movinig, " that a select- committee be appoin ted to inquire how fptr the measures lately adopted b Parliament, or by his Majesty's MVinisters, had tended, or were likely to tend, to remedy the grievances, repair the mischiefs, or alleviate the discontents which existed in Irela4d, and to consider whether aiiy and. what further measuxres wer,iccs- sary towards attaningthose objects."'.ee The Earl of LsIV.ERPOOL said, that under any other circum- stances he would bave refrained fromi giving his opinion on this imotant question uintil he had heard those of noble lordIs who from their local acquiaintance with Ireland possessed much more information on the subject, but h16 was afraid that in' his pre- sent state of health he should be ezhausted before that hour couJd arrive. lie therefore rose at tihis early period of the debate- He would set oat by saying, that if he thought that coy practical good was likely to arise to Ireland, or to the empire at large, by thle appointmnent of thie comnmittee for which the noble lordi had moved, lie Wopldl not oppose it ; but he felt firmly persuaded that not only could nio benefit arise, hut that muchi inconvenience would ensjse froni agreeing to the motion. He would thierefore oppose the motion, because, however much (and he liad xo doubt the noble earl felt satisfied that mucht good woild result from liis proposition) might be anticipated from such an inqui'ry, it appeared -to him (Lord Liverpool) that it would be productive of naischier, inasmiuch as it inight give rise tohliopes which it couldanotrealize. In setting omit he would beg to say, that for the lrlah peojile as a body he felt the kindest feeling. 1i wvas buxt doing justice to his knowledwge mf their character to say, that though he had not v-isitedt Irebind (and was t.herefore free from local prejudice, one way or thec other, viith respect to theni), yet he lied frequently in his public and privdte ia1sacity Come m contact with large bodlies of the people of that country, arid he wvould assert, that, whether lie referred to that very large portion pfphem wvhich was engaged in the most labo- rious_eriployments~in this country, or whether he considered thlat extensive class of Irish airtisans andi mnehn swihwsepoe iin the capital, or to those others o that country whip were en. gaged' in various other-pursuits, he would, he repeated, assert, that a. more honest, a more industrious, set of people, or a people more alive to every feeling of gratitude for favour8 coniferred, (wh~at. ever might be said of theni it) their own country), did, not exist in this or in any Other country. He said this, that it mtight not be insakingd. that his Objection to the m6dibn ariose iroom any indiffer- ence to the people of Ireland', or from any disposiuion 'Q Undervalue ,their imporimice ; for he would say a!gain, thiat whetKi'we laohe4 to tie service'sof the people pf that country in our armies or navies, ~or in any other departlernt' in vwhigh their seryices were required' a more isefulset of people did not eist in tlgworld. (Hear,' hear.j In referring to the present s5tite of Irelanld, their lortLships shiould consider thiat there was a great diff(~iencc d~4 on 'rt of th'at count-y and some o3thers.' The province of Ulste'r,f instance was in a stqteof prosperity, not merely as compvaredwith somebtiter parts of Ireland, bunt as compared with Great Britain itself, There- for, i rferncetotheevis hic mihtbe said to existin other placs, e soul alwys ~chde hatpart which happily was eqept rou al o nerly'al ofthM. He woq4ia now say a few ord wih rfernceto he gtsof thle English Govern. meat amdt it poicytowrdsIreandin frmner times and at the preent Hedi no men t uderalu tat poicy which.had been formerly pursued by Bng4and towards the sister island, that po- licy whichmighe be termedunjust:idiliberal. lewoiild admit tbiat it was for a long time a policy of tyrarnny and oppression,'and that even in those cases where the epithets of tyranny and olptlisibhl were not applicable, it was a narrow and selfish policy, and that in both' cases Ireland had greaitly suffered by its adoptsoa, But ad- nittifig this, he could not shut his eyes on the fact, that it was not altogether to such policy that Ireland owed those evils by which she was afflected, Irand owed much of the inconveniences which she bad stPffered to the baving received at an unfit moment, that wliich might under diffirent iytcumstanees be a benefit-he meant the extension of English laws, and teEnglish constitution. He was sure' that had this country app1ied the same principle to Scotland immeliately after the rebeliion of 1745 Scotland would not be in the gourishing condition which sioe 'th day pre- sented. He mentioned this in support of a principle which wpuld not, he believed, be denied-th4t in all countries, the beneit'of legislation should be applied to the p4rtjcmqlar circumstances oF: the eountry. Before hie proceeded to other parts of the 'nobe 'earls' speech, lie would say a rord as to the pohcy which had in recent times been adopted by'this country towards Ireland,' and he would refer particularly to the acts which had been passed'in 'the late reign for the benefit of that country. On this subject, he'would take the evidence of a noble baron (Lord Grenvhe, we believe) 'who he re- gretted (lid not of lateattend in hiisplieein thehiouse, ?batnoblelord, who ofterrtook a verydiffererst view from that which he held on the subject of Irish questions, had adnlitted that atno periodof our history bad so many actsin favourof Irelaud, andi lculated to promnote its interests passed as in the late reign. He (Lord Liver- pool) believed that the noble earl (D?rnley)'was not awhre of all the acts which had been of late years passed in favour of Ireland. However, from his(Lord Liverpool's)'knowledie of them, he would assert that there asno instance on recordof anycountry doink more fora limb of its enpirethan Englau4hbd'done 'for Ireland 'within the last few y'ei?s,. aiu& upon the o6iabilibment of the tisfith of 'this assertion he would rest his opposition to- the present motion. It would not be denied that England wasc the highest taxied of any counry i Eurpe it waLs double tlsat of France or the Nethierlands : butwih thsbieren aehad akenuponerself the iaxes of Ireland, andhe oud aser4t~t relndwasatthc present momeht the least taxe contr isaEurpe.in popotio toher population, except, perhps,Swf~erand Enlan wa fie tmes as much taxied. Ire- lan Isd nw n diecttaxtio toth Crown-no direct taxation whatever, unless thqe titeeul be so considered. When lie said that Eglnwa osltxe compared with any other country in- Europe nn h~Ieadwste nliost free from taxation, in the same coprsn etrdonlys small part of what he meant to prove. Hewudamttata sminl degreeof tasationrimight betoo muchfora countrywith vcrylimetedre-sources~;but itw-as not themere freedomnfrom direc taxationinwhich Irelnandharlexperienceclthelibe- ralitrofthis country. From all the protecting duties againstthe corn- petition of other oDuntries with English produce, Ireland hiad bean exempted. In the corn bill, which prohibited the importation of com from the rest of Europe, the produice of Ireland was allowed to be brought into the Engrlialh market. Thus, while Ireland was not half as much taxe4 as France or the Netherlands, and only one. fifth as much as Enigland, she had all the advantages of the English market for her prodluce, from which the other nations of Eufope were excluded. These were facts; which should he stated in the' discussion of such a motion as the present, as they would prove the assertion whic'h ha. had made, that no country in the world had ever behaved withi more liberality to a branch of its empire thVk, Englanid had recently (whatever might have been her policy- lih formier periods) to Ireland. Per- hap1s the subject of religion migh't be excepted by some noble lords from this princple ; but upon that he would observe, that it was not connected with the comnmercial or fiscal policy of England towards the sisterislands. But if the evils of Ireland were said to arise from that source (whichlibe was not prepared to admit), he shouldI on the proper ocea4on be able to show that those evils were to be attributed to other and verydifferentciuses. With respecttothecomnmitteeofge. neral inquiry which was nowsouehit, he would ask their lordsfhips in what case had gany practical evil been pointed out which the Govern. menthad shornan indispositionto remtedy? Wherchlad tlieyrefused inquiry where inquiry was likely to be attended with any beneficial results?P Their lord4hips were aware that a commission had been appointed to inquire into the fiscal regulations of Ireland, ar.d that it had alreadyvbeen attendedawith the most satisfacetorv re,sults. He would not object to anv inquiirv whiere a particular evil coAild be pointed out; but he aid stronkly ob.iect to a gengpul inquiry' with no partkigpr qbject, and which frim. the 'natuire of it, muxst give rise tio hopes whiih it mnigbt not be possible to realize. From the poeings inr the other house of Parlfanient, it v7as clear thati wlhere legislative measures c-ouldl bo ap. pied with anv hope of effect, they had not been neglect- ed; and he ;Nwas glad to acknowledge that in some of those measures nien of all parties had unjited in forwarding objects likely to be productive of general good. Amongst these lie noticed, with much satisfaction, those measures intendedI to diffluse the benefits3 of education in Ireland. In 1he f~peirrost of fhoic who, were anxious to promote that salutarv nudertakifig, wais a noble marquis opposite (the M1arquis of Dowaihire, we believe), who never visited lIreland without conferrinig a benefit on its people. That institution from which the country might expect such, lasting benefits was now in gctive*pogress.' He would vidmit the benefit of chatter schaoos and other Protestant establishments~ for edticationk, but lie also admittedl, that the beniefits of eddacation shudbeoewdl diffused, and extendled equally to Catholic as well as Protestant. Thatobject, he was glad to observe, was likely to be attadined by the institution of genecial schools to whiich he hiad adverted. Sinice their establishment in 1817. thzey liad increaed in number every yea,i iimanner whichi show&d the importance which was attached to thins by al Tnks nd lases. n 117. he umbr wa 30(webelieve); in 81, teyamontd t fd; n 819 t 13; n l20to241; and sere, hatinthelas verteirnumer asInceasts o ,122. To sho th pogrsstha thseschol wee aking week after week, hu woulatat thincrasewhic ha takn pace in the quiarters of the last ya,In the first quarter, 615; intesecond, 73; in the third, 117 ; and in ii foiurth, 142 - making in all 395 increase iq the year. InthesRe the Rtomnignaihiolics and Protestant- were indis- criminately admitted, the formier having the Scriptures accordling to their own,'the Douay version, whenever they'so desired it. It was also a satisfaction to remark, that the numiber of these schools con- tinued to increase in the south of Ireland as well as in the northi and cast, and~ that in the appointment of masters there had been no dis- tinction mnadc'between Prote?t4nt and Ciitholic. It would not of course be expected, ilhat the improvement to be aerlyed from such schoolsi could be expected to be: appaieeut all at 'once- that the habit$ and manners of ithe people coutld be all at oncerefomed as f bya tuch f amagic Wand.; but it was. graifingtolean,tha i thsedisritswhere the system wvas most generl, ad whre te scoolshad een longest establishled, the gretes imrovmen ha ben vsibe.(The noble lord here read someextrcts rom he cmmuncatins f private individuals, andI also from the reports of the School Association, in proof of this as- sertion.) He had thouglht it necessary to rention those facts, notas objections to the noble earl's motion, but to show howv ank institution, c-alculatedi to remove many of the evils compulained of in Ireland, was working. Their hardships ivere; parbaj;s, awVare, thait jin thle other house an address liedl been carriedl for appointing a commiis- sion to inatuire into the state of education in Irelard. So far from objecting to tliat measure, he crordially approved of it. It wvould, lie had no doubt, be productive of very goodt efTects. The next subject oni whioh thp noble earl had toiuched was the police of Ire- land. Upon thisi, he would adrniltthat many of those who w(ere ap- pointed as instruments for the preser'vationi of ihe' peace had been guiIitvof gross abuses of their authority, but in every case where such 'abuses had been discovered (and perhaps under the best system it would be impossible to prevent themi altogether) they had been corrected, and their authors punished. But in this respect he did not see what benefit could be derived from a committee of inquiry, or what more co4ld be done than had been already ancieveTA. If it was asserted that the appointmnents in the police had been exclu ~elv confindtone ar -to Protestiiuts in preference to UalW s-he louttxsayv, tohaet t7e:cit~a-rtgewas nottbundet ttlbr, asfar as lie couldl learn, there bhad been no preference given to eithier party, h ut that those personsapparently best calculated for the duties of the. sittuation were appointed withouitdistinction. He would now -come to another topic, on which the noble lord had dwelt; but first a wvord upon tithes, Upon thFt lnmportant quecstion he would not enter at preisent, for a measure was sni progress in the other house, which, when it came bef6or them, would afford an opportu- nity of enterin.' fully into it. He wvould only say upon it for tlhe present, e'isst there were manyv parts of the system of tithes whichl required a remedy ; but he wouldI assert that the fears of Li.ose who thought that no remedy could he found but in the abolition of the systemn of tithe altogether, were altogether unfounded. The noble lord then proceeded to shiow that the evil of tithes in Irelanld arosge, iuotfrom their amouint, but f rom the abuses in their collection; that from the manner in which preperty was subdivided in Ireland, the collection must be liable to great abuse, and that crying abuses did exist ftQqr the exactions of tithe-farmers and tithe-proctors in very many cases; but that the abolition of tithe altogether would not afford relief to the occupiers of land; that it might afford a tern. porary, relief' to the present Iessees. of farms; but that, eventu- ally, the advantage would entirely accrue to the proprietors of the soil, and that after, a few years the tenant would have togray more inl additional rent than he unow. paid. in tithe even at the highlest rate. Theman sudivsios o lad ito mall farms were, he conti. mmc, asouce f geatdisres an msery to the poor farmner. Ther lrdsipsshold lsorecllet,that Ireland had no. poor laws Hislordhip ere roceded o cotrast the condition of' (hic colnia slve ithtlitofth unmplyedpeaant orth broken. of food and clothing, and derivedI even sm adntgsfrom the very caprices of his muaster; but-thme poo esn in Irelad where there was nosyslesm of parobial relif whnuepoe, was a vagrant without a home' or any bac ofrle,save that whiich lie derived from c4sual gclirty He Was as great an enemy to slavery as any man-no nyfromi his sense of thie moral degradatiorc of tse slaves, hu alofo htof the mnaster, who must be degraded by the very habilts he acquie intiie unliznit. ed control over so maniy of his fellow-men. He therefore would, as anabstract question, wish-tbatit were- abolished. Tlienoblelord proceeded to say, that when the cerf was separated from the soil, when he was looked upon as a free being dependent on his own ex.. ertions, it was awise policy to snalke some provision for his wants, whien those exertions were unable to supply them; and inthis view he considlered that the estabUlisment of the -poor laws in this country were productive of more good than evil. From such a re- source, howieyer, the poor of Ireland( dlerived no benefit, as she bad no general poor-rates ; and beiece was derived Eanother evil, to whichi the motion of the noble earl (Darnley) could afford 'no remedy. The noble lord next proc-eeded totake aview of the evils arising from the numnber of absentees (proprietors of land) from Ireland. This sysenm..if ystm t culdbecaledhad,. he observed, been pro. ductve f mny vil, nt mrel totheabsentees themselves int the detrioatin o thir roprty bu tothe residents, in the want of tha cae ad rotctin wirs nt etenivlanded proprietor would, eve fo th sae o hs on iterst f e had no higher motive, aord to his tenanits. Itas aers oaclass of men called miid- dle,men, not known in hscuty and it was in the very nature of such a tenure of lqtna todiiste income of the owner on time one htand,anadniaterisUiJto detractfror1theprofits oftheoocupyingtenants ontimleother. This was an evil ~whi clihe could not Ilave anticipated 4t tlieunion,to any thing likethie extent to which ithadlnow arisen; but it 'was strange,thikt though Scotlanid was as far from the place where lie then spoke aq Jueland, and 'the' Scottish landlord of 'course as far removed from hi tenant as tIme 1rish, yet the same effect was not urotluced'by the unioin of Scotlntand for the Scottish farmers were ;vihou ,omprisn in a much- better situation thani those in Iead Taing Ihose circumstances into ronsideration, lid WoPM not see kow far the r'esult of a committee would be likely treeyany of the evils to which he hidadverted. The noble carl bDmey ad aEdverted to the question of Catlm6lic emancipation. Heddnt see lioi that qi.iestiqn bore upon the motion. The Ca- tholics of Ireland were in a different situiation from auy coutntry in Europe whr the great body of the people were of a religion differ.. eat from taof the state. (Hear hear, from the Opposition.) In other counre where the Government was Catholic, or where it was Protestant-in those provinces of which the inhabitants differed from the established religion, the property went with the great mass ofthe peeple; but in Ireland, the great mass of property, landed and cons. mercigl was in the hands of Protestants. Taking this for granted, h'e coul nopiee how the grcat mass of the people couldbbemmefitted by emancipation; vfter wffich,'the weight and influence in the coun- try museseiiattch, in thie ian;e degree sbefore to property. It might-be said, tha rIte measure wonud be salutary as one of concili. atlon.. He did notsee that, except it could snake thle Protestants be. come Catholics, or Catholics become Protestants; but be this as it might, this was a question which had been often discussed, and. which weuld again. It was ene which rested on its own merits, and could ihot be declded-by such a committee as the noble earl rloved for. He bad now one.through'all the points of the noble earrs speech, as far as his strength allowed him; and he would say;' that whenever any particular grievance.-was pointed out, it might be the subject of investigation; but he-could see no good whicbl was likeld' to result firin such a general inquiry as the noble earl had propose, ond he -would,therefore opose the motion. : Tiie-31arquis of LANSDO W"N iaid,' that agecing as lie did in many points of .theisiolle aril's speech. be eqeld nqt concqr ini those .pynes, -in which he endeavoured io induce thetr lord6hmips to refuse thp present n)otiofi on .tbe-grounds that Ireland was, in many re- spects$ in a prQsperous state, -ajd tbat t1he evilX which did affcctit could nbt be iptnedied .by the" result of aiuy inquirv. It was a singtilavanomaly, thatwith tbisasserted prosperity of lreland,. the legislatute'should, fromsession -to session,- be caled upoR to travel out .oftlie oedinar policy of the country and-of the constitution, to keep it'in a state of even mnoderite tranqu1lity. In admitting the partial iuccess of sole of the measures whichhad been lately adopt- ed with respect to Iselaiid, hebegged he uight not be understood as for a moment arecigThat their lordshlp ought to suspend their attention from the cons-deration of those important topics wbicli the situationof that country ealledforth. He couId byno meanscon- cur intthe statept of the noble earl tI*vcrpool), tat - such credit 'Was due to Enghind for whfit tie was pleasodto toern her6unbounded ganerosity to rreland, anti the great sacrifices she had made to improve her condition. It was sarange that with all that was said to havebeen done for that country, with aU thelovalty, and-at- tachilsent, and. devotion to the constitution for which ihe. lfad -:goft credit, thhat it should still be found- necessary to keep up an iUi- mense miltary force to ensure that ttxiquiIIt4 which it was at the same time asserted that- there existed r.o disposition to disturb. Surely there must be some hidden catise--sonething radicallybad, either in the people or the mode of governing them, that of all the blestings and benefit-s conferred, none of them should be absorbed, as he might sa, --into the system; btit"tbat theyg- sliiild aU slide off without producin anr visible impression'. He was disposed to admit the good that had been done to Ireland; but when the noble lord talked of generosity and sacrifices in allowing Ireland to bring her produce to our market, he could think of it only as an act of justice done to one part of the country, for the ge- neral benefit of the whole. In the same manner should lie view the privilege of allowing Sussex to send its sauperabundant corn to the markets ef AMiddlesex. Then as to the freedom af Ireland from taxation. She was, indeed, the most free from it of any other part of the empire; but the cause was obvious-she was the most impoverished ; aad there was no process of alchymy, by which any treasury could extract money where money did not exist. Severe measures had been tried in Ireland to raise taxatiop: they-had beern found ineffectual. The more taxes were increased, the less iroduce tive they were found, and they were abandoned. This was not generosity bus common justice. (Hear, hear.) The no- ble marquis then proceeded to contend, that the poljiy of this country for centuries towards Ireland had.been unjust and op- pressive; that the population of Ireland still increased- and vouldincrease; but it would depend on future measurts- whether thatmereased population should ben source of apprebension and ir- ritation or a source of strength sad security- to England. He would admnittiat some oF tisemeasures recently adopted were calculate4 to improve the condition of Irelanid. He particularly alluded to the. tithe, composition act and the police act. They were wel intend- ee, and though they had not succeeded to Ahe extent expected, yet they were 'in mamy cases successtil. With iespect to the former measure he hadbefore given his opinion and expressed his approbatic-n. He had hailcld its introduction by the Irish Govem- ment, as a measure calculated to put an end to a system which for so long a pieriod had been productive of tho treatest evils, and he trqsteA it wonld be successful. There were some parts of it to which he objected, but the principle was once established, and he trusted that the day-was not distant when he should see a general commit- tation of tithe in Ireland. There was another subject to which the noble lord had adverted, and which at all times required the most serions attention of their lordships-he meant the administration of justice in Ireland. Surely their lordslhips would not deny that there mustrbe something bad in the system of Government.in that country, or in the administration of its laws, when they foord so many per- sons-not merely the owners of largelanded property, but persons of middling and small properties-leaving that country to seek (he was golng to say an asylum, buit he would say) a residened elewhere. By the- way, ho would here say a wordc as to one of the effects which thu noble earl had mentioned of absentee- ship-he meant tb,e creation of an order of middlemen, not known in this country. The fact was, that this, and the divisions ard subdivisions et land into small farms, were caused by a want of cas pital among the farmers to manage largeportions of land. But to re. turn to the&administration of justice. Howr did it happen that prac. tically this unequal administration of justice wras felt? lrhen he mentioned unequal administration of justice, let him not be under- stood as casting any imputation on the learned Judges of Ireland, by whom it was administered in the superior courts. No set of men could dischalrge their d-.g more impartially; and if it were not in. vidious to mention individuals where all did their duty, he would name the learned Judlges of the Court of King's Bench, and most particularly the learned and very excellnt individual who presided in that Court-who were particularly listinguished for the most strict and impartial administration of the laws, and for maling the people sensible of their benefit. But though great credit was due to Government for their selection of persons to fill the Iiigher offices in the administration of the laws, they were not equally successful (he did not impute it as blame to them) in the choice of those by wlhom the subordinate situations in the administration of justice were filled. He particularly alluded to the manag,ement of the police. The noble earl (l4iverpool) had himselt admitted, that greatabuses had been committed by some persons connected with that department. Ittvas mosttrue, and greaterthan was imagined. He had had a conmmunication from a gentleman who stated, that in one county wherc the assize had just terminated, they would have been maiden but for the trial of some policeofficers. This case was so flagrant as to attract the notice of Government. The Government sent four King's counsel to conduct this prosecu- tion at the assizes; but so deeply were the family wlo were thepro- secutors persualed that they would not obtain justice tbrough the means of the counsel nominated by Government (although he sup. posed there was not one of theirlordships who would entertain such an opsnson)-ao conninced were they that it was not the boaza fide intention of Government to procure them an impartial trial, that they. actually subscribed amongst themselves a sum which enabled them to obtain the assistance of an eminent coun- sel, Mr. WalLace, upon wlhose speech and showing it was that the verdict was procured. He did anot state this cir- cumstance for the purpose of iniplying any thing like remiss- ness on the part of Government, or that justice would not have been obtained through the meanms of the counsel whom they appointed, but merely es showing that there existed a rooted opinion among the pooref classes of the people of Ireland, that they were per- sons proicribed and excluded from the pale of the laiw, and that there was no sacrifice which they would not make in orler to procure a counsel to whom they could give their own instructions, and by whom those instructions would be carried into effect. (Hear, hear.) He was sorry to say that the misconduct of constables, which had been the ori-in of the ttial to wlhich he had ailuded, was the subject of very general and just complaint through- out Ireland. He hadi received a copv of the resolttions which had recently been passed by the Grand Jury of t!.e county of Rosconm- inon, and which were signed by a member of that house whom he did not at precsent see in his place. In those resolutions it was de- dared, that the chief constable who had heen appointed by Govern- iment, and the persons employed under .him, had been the means of exciting disturbances in that county, in order that they might turn tlem to their own advantage. (Hear.) The Grand Jury further stated,' that the individual wlhowas placed at the head of the police was constantly employed in screening the inferior constables from the punishment to which they were obnoxious on account of their illegal conduct. He could, if he pleased, multiply instances to show that the people of Ireland were urnable to procure an impartial admainistration of justice, even in cases where it was the wish of theGovernmentthat it should be obtained; but he would not occupy the time of their lordships in atteospting to prove a fact which was perfectly notorious. In the northern counties many trials for murder had taken place in' which acquittals had been recorded: hut it was nevertheless true that the murders had been committed. It had been proved that in many cases -atholics had been murdered at nigist in the open streets, whilst the houses wvere lighted up, and aet up to the present moment it had been found im- possible to procure a consviction in a sngle instance. (Hear, hear.) The result was,, that an impression was left in the minidsl of the Catholic population that blood had been spilt for which no atonement had been made; which impression mustlead to fatal consequences whenever an opportunity should arise for future outrage. (Hear, h1ear.) The police act, which their lordships had passed last session as a means of tranquilizing Ireland,had, in consequence of the manneriin which it had beea exe- cuted, become acauseof fresh dissatisfaction. The remedy had been converted into poison, and the measure not only excitea pre- sent disturbance, bat laid the foundation of thase future resentments wlich in that unhappy eour.try were transmitted from generation to generation. (Hlear, hear.) He would nov say a few words with respect to one of the chief causes of the unfortu- nate situation of Ireland-namely, the Orange Societies, which it had been not unaptly- said rendered the country unsafe to live in. A learned judge in Ireland, iBaron Maclelland4 had meritoriously ex. crted himself to yut down the processionswhich emanated from those societies, andwluich gave birthfto counter-processions on the partof the Catholics. The lcarned Jadrlge, after observing that the latter pro- cessions were as legal Us the former, out of which they arose, con. eluded his address to the grand jury, by saying, "5 Put down lioth." (Hear.) He knew tlhat such were the sentiments entertained by the noble lord opposite and his colleagues, but the only way effectually to put an end to such processions, was to let it be known that no person who should tal:e a part in them would be permitted to hold any office unaer the-Gopeirmmnt. (Hear.) Until the Government found courage to adopt that resolution, no good would be elfected. Their lordships might'sake speeches, an'd flatter themselves:that they would faiml ther way into the cabin 'ofthe Irish peasant, and,af. ford hint satisfaction; but they would over-rate the value of their speeches if they did sO. If an Irish peasant saw that a ?urphy or an O'Connor who had insulted himself, his family, and his religion, was appointed to an office under Government, he must either bow down to the dust before his oppressor, or rise in robellien and commit assassination and other crimes. - He tbought it was in- cut1 bent on the Government to showv that they would not al- low any persons who took -any sbare in Orange processiois to iolil any thinglike oflice in lreland. It was also of great impor- tance that juries should be &electcld from persons .of all parLies, in- stead of bein~g, as was how generally the case, comuiosec' of Protes- tants exclusively. The-noble earl had stated that Uoveminrnment had adopted the surgesti6n which had heen thrown- out by a right hon. friend of h;.is (the Marquis of Lansfiown), and intended to establish a commission of inquiry on the subject of education. He-did not think that the establishment of such a commission would be the best mneans of attaining the object which .they had in view. -It would, in Lis opinion, be a better' course to act upon the information wlhich they already possessed. WVhat had been the CQarse which Parliament had hiitherto pursued on thesub- ject of education in Ireland? He would not ga back to a date pre- vious to the union, but would refer to a period so recent as 1806. At thiat time a commission was appointed for the object for which it sas now proposed 'to establisl a fresh one. He held in his hand tIe 14th report of that committee, which was tbe result of the investiga- tions of men eminently qualified for the duty to which they had been appointed. Nothing, however, had beeh done by Parliament its consequence of the fourteen reports of this- commission. - 'hen he ststcd that tlie reports to which he alluded contained many most valuable suggestions which hbd never in. any one itlstance"been a t. tended to by Goverhment, 'he thought he wis n t inexcusable -in loolking forwvard to the prospect of a new' coriruission with little hope of a successful result. H wvould wish Governmentat oneetosancton the endowment ofCatholieschools. It wits repeatedly-urged as an ob- jection to such a measure, that Catholic clergy men had afundamen- tal objection'to placing the Scriptares in the hands of .the- common people, una'snompaiiied by any note or commdat." This subjec t had been adverted to in the 14th revort of the commission. of .1800, to which the namies of four members of the established church in re-, land were attached, atid'a vcry valuable suggcstiolijwas. then- made with respect to it. The.suggestio n was, that seletionis sh6uld]-be made of the most importait .partss of sacretl -liistory, together with the precepts of -lorality- containedrin the Scripturcs, anis ' fh6 examnles by which they were illustrat.0,.whiclshould not heliahg! to thbe jbiidin'whiIh thc Cetholc clergjineii'ehtertaiWed a gainst the indiscriminate psrusal of- the Scriptures; That suggestion had. been totally_ disregarded. If a selection'of the nature .suggested had been made, and u bmitted to the Cith6liEl ierarchy foi theirap. probation, and that liael been obtained, it would hiave been the means- of establishing a- xystem of instruction calculated to catry the light of knosledge ineyerypart of Ireland. Ithad beensaid- that7the Catholic clergymen-Avere Inimical to education - altogetlihr. 'le was bound to say from his ovn expoerienc that that was not thp case. JBut iftthere were any foundation for such a chargke,wbat could be smore useful for friends oftthe established church than to bring the question to thetest? Those persons whs wished ill to the Catholfi clergy could not take a more effectual way-to injire them in the opinion of the people of ireland, thanto' show that thyere the enemies of insteu tion. The predominant feeling .of the Irish people-was a desite to obtain informatina. He thught that the labour of thenoble earl opposite would not be lost if he would read the reports which had been s made by the commission of'1806, and whsigh contaitda greatdealof very valiualeinformation. The noble marqtuis toncluded by erpresing an opinion that It was the duty of the house to agree to the appoint.. ment of a' committee, which would have for its object to secure to thc people of -Ireland that imprtial adrninit4tiei of jUstice which' formed the ptrsd boast-of their fellow-subjects im this country.' - ,The Earl of-LIMERICK agreed withmuch that had fallen from. noble lords on both-sides of the bouse, buthe felt it his duty to de. dare his coneumTence in the opinion which ltad faleh from the noble earl (Liverpo6l)-_that no benefit could result from the appointment. of the committee. Witq respect to poor-rates they would be very agreeable to the IWi'hp easants; for they wouad never work if they 'could obtain support without it. The establishment of a System of poor-rates in -Ireland would only createsix millions of beggars. -The Mtarquis of IODIV-NSHIRE strongly pressed upon their lordships the considerationof the state of Ireland. One of the great faults in Ireland wasIthe absence of a middle class, and the too great dist.ncebetween.the praprietor and the tenant of the land. This infermediate disbdvantsqe the progress of educationi was calculatcd to rtmove;Religious distinctions had also had their powerful weight from the Catholic poRulation education had been long withheld by the system of the (zovernTent. The unfortunate operation of such a system was not calculated to last: its only efi'ect was to cre- ate ill blood and consequent turmult. He hoped that an ameliorated plan of Government would speedily relieve evils wlhich all good reen concurred in deploAng. He pointed out the remarkable fact, that in the north of Ireland the wolice and coerdve acts were not brought intoaction,althougli tbey were in the south. In the latter, a better attention ought to bepaid to the component parts of the public esta- blishment, and also to the situation of the people over whom they were!callel_intotction. ldeaccordinglTy hoped that some part oe thesurplus cipiILd'of England would be turned into account for the benefit of Ireland, where the abundant resources of nature, were so well calculatel to repy the enterprising capitalist. Lord CARBERY seid, that the progress of education, notwith. standing some unwise and injudicious effosts to force it, was sow under a better system, very observable among the lower classes of Ireland, and that the Scriptures were distribued amonrst the poor tit'aout any affrt to hurt the feelings of the Catholic population. He augured much good from a temDerate and equitable government in Ireland, and Save his Majesty's Mlinisters credit for the al] teration of th7er old svstem. There was oneevil which added to the miseries of Ireland ; and it was, the excess of population above the means of providing adequate employment. 'The Earl of RODEN expressed the satisfaction which he felt on this occasion at the development of the state of Ireland, although he could not concur in the opinions expressed bv many noble lords as to all-ofthe causes to which the miseries of that country were at- tributable. He must protest against the opinion, that no measure no amelioration would practically apply to Ireland with any effect, without a previous concession of what wa- called the Catholic ques- tion. On the contrarv, he thought that if the house were in a condi- tion to concede that important measure, there woulK still remain the genn of murh evilinthat unhappy country, vhere an ignoranceofthe lawsofGod,andofthepenaltieof moraltransgression, was workedup and preserved bydesigning demagogues, who.in their convention now sittinginlubin,decaimeLwith .actiousinvectiveaeainstEnglish con- nexioni. He spoke from a resident knowledge of Ireland; and on the subject of education be could truly say, that there never was a time when all cl;sses of the people were so eager to receive the ce- ments of education, and when the middling classes were so ready to afford them. In proof of this general disposition, he quoted the report of the Sunday School Societv in Ireland, which established 1,640 schools, educated 12,000 childien, and was supported, not by publccrioney. but by voluntarysubscription, unaided bv the Catho- liC clergy, who were in general (there were some particular excep. tions) hostile to the education of their flecks. In the Sunday schcols, the Scripttires formed the basis of the education conferred. The , noble lord theo enumerated the differenat Sunnday schools in Ireland, r the rapid progrcss of education which resulted from them, and the number of Catholic children who were ready to partake of their sys- tem of education: the sum total was 349,306 ch:ldren, 164,745 of whom were Roman Catholics. In his view of the state of Ireland, lie was ready to admit, that prosilvtism ought to be avoided in the education of the people, although' it was a matter of great ins- portance, that ia the spirit of the reformation they should by all fair argument opposethe errors of Popery. Hethen contrastcd the dliffeicnce between the people of Scotland and Ireland, and pointed out the advantages which education had conferreid upon the former. After adverting to the tithe commutation and police. bils which Parliament enacted in a former session, and of rhe prindiple of which he approved, he regretted that the state of the country required the applcatton of coercive measures; for,whether it was the triumph of the Orangemen or that of the Ribandmen, they were alike out- rages which must be put down, before the tranquiUlity of Ireland could be restored, or the English capitalist induced to commit his property into such hands. On a late occasion, lie knew that a contest nip arisen out of these party triumphs which ended in bloodshel and the magistracy required strong measu,res for their suppression. As to the recent trial at Cavan, he believed the mind of thie judge wvas impressed -that the prisoner alluded to was not the individual who had been engaged in -the act whicl led to that trial. He should oppose tbis motion, because he thought it more calculated to exas- perdte than tomitigate the evils of Ire and. The Alarquis of LANSDOWN explained. Lord ULIFDEN was-pleased at the progrcss of education. in Ire- land, which would, he believed, be productive of great benefit. Hle deprecated, howevur, any attempts at conversion in the diffuision of educatinn,andasked whetherit wasnotncatural tbat tbeCatholiccleigy should be jealousjofproselyrismwsen tbeyknewthat the whole object of the detestable penal code whi.ch solongeonvulsed Ireland was ceu- version, and forcible conversion. He acquitted the present Govern- mentof entertaining any such intention as that of continuing such a plan, but it was siatural for others to be sceptical, and particularly when they knew that there were two sets of parsons in Ireland, one of which had the revenue, and the other the flocks. (A laugh.) It would be in vain to attempt the tranquillization of Ireland until the erasure of the last odious blot of that penal code, which stUll Conti- nued in Ireland a divided people, contrary tb the express promise held out by Air. Pitt at the time of the Union. He -concluded by supporting the motion. The Earl of CARNARVON lamented the difficulty of legisliat. ing under exosting feelings for Ireland. All agreed in the existence of the horrible evils which afflicted that country, although none con- curred in any part of the cause, or any portion of thle remedy, which had led to, or was likelv to-remove, this state of things. l{e was conv.iced that the Governmuient must,with a more fixed and steady attention, determine to ameliorate the condition of that coun. try, which presented the astonishing spectacle of alarge population being conapelled to support the charch establishment of a small mi. nority: a Prote&tant establishnmenthad, without anY previous means of conversion, been forced upon the people by a violation of the treaty of L;mericks He admitted that the church establishment in Ireland must he supported,' but he denied the necessity of maintaining it upon the present plain and unequal scale. The real question of difficulty was, how to attach the pedple of Ire- land. From whiat hehbad-seen of thenm, lhe would say that a more generous, active, and noble-riinded people never existed; and if well treated, they would he a bulwark to this country; but if ill-treated a source of congtaHt weakness. Now was the time to mnake Ireland reaUll our friend. The noble earl had talked of boons granted to her, bLat 'what were they 1 She had for centuries been ill-treated and plundered, and new alittle of what washerowvn wasgiven backtoher. The Earl Of IABNLE3Y briefly replied. After which the house divided, wben there appeared, For the mnotion, 171- Against it, d7 j Ma.ority 40. Adjourned at 12 o'clock. UnTTQrT.n A T.Tn9R1fl ThUUnSIAY. APrIL 8.