House Of Lords, Tuesday, ...
The Times, 1824-03-10T00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. .lr. BlOGDEN ana others trom tlle tuommons, brought up the ;outh American postage bill, and several private bills, which were ead a first tinie. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition f:om the inhabit. .nts of ;\ arylebone, against bear-baiting and other cruel sports. OFFICE OY CLERK OF PARLIAMENT. The Earl of lIVERPOOL rose to make the motion of which he )ad given notice, for the appointment of a committee to inquire into lte stateof the office of Clerk of Parliament. He did not mean to rouble their lordships witlh any ebservations on the present occa- ion. The object ot the inquiry would merely be to consider what vas fitting to be done with *he office in future. He was sensible hat it must be the wish of their lordships to do justice to all par- ies by any decision to which tbey might come, and he had no ob- ect in nominating the committee, but to appoint those members of he house who could most conveniently and effectually prosecute he inquiry. Heconcluded by moving that a committee be appoint. d to inquire into theoffice of clerk of Parliament. Earl GROSVENOR observed, that no immediate advantage to he public would arise from this measure; but their lordships must ie aware that a very considerable saving might take place on the lecease of the person who now held the office. The noble earl af- erwards alluded to the office of Remembrancer of the Exchequer, mnd urged the necessity of the regulation of it. Their lordships he emarked, were aware that that office still remained as it was (Lord Liverpool saidacross thetable, "No.") The noble earl then ad- serted to the necessity of also regulating the office of the Clerk of the Pells, and also that the LJord Chief Justice of Scotland wished that he consideration of the state of all theseoffices might be referred to I committee. The Earl of LIVERPOOL reminded their lordships, that with respect to the offices of the Exchequer, the law which had been passed for their abolition authorized the Lords of the Treasury to make what regulations they thought necessary in them. This had been done as far as possible in these offices. With regard to the Remembrancer of the Exchequer, it had, as he stated on a former day, been found necessary to put iton a new footing; but before it should be finally regulated it was the wish of the Barons of the Ex. chequer to ascertain precisey what ought to be done with it, and for that purpose a gentleman had been appointed to execute the neces. sury dutues, but without a salary. The motion for the committee was then agreed to, and the noble earl proceeded to name the lords he wished to compose it, selecdng thetn from each side of the house alterately. APPELLANT JURISDICTION. Lord CALTHORPB wished to say a few words on a subject in whish the interests of the public and the dignity of their lordships' house was deeply concerned :he alluded to thearrangementrecent. ly made for hearing appeals. That arrangement he had heard comn. plained of out of the house, and he had not heard in the house any one argument in its favour, except that of convenience; but, how. ever important that convenience might be, it was to be regretted if it were obtained at the expense of that respect in which the appel. lant jurisdiction of the house ought to be maintained. It seemed to him that there was much ground for doubt as to the propriety of an arrangemnent, the principal feature of which was the absence of one of the judges, on whose opinion appellants were accustomed to rely. Hewasfar from wishing to depreciate the qualifications of the indvi. dual who was recently appointed to preside at the bearing of causes, but he certainly could not have the same authority as the noble and leartied lord with wlhom the house and the public were more inti. mately acr1uainted. There was, besides, a great anonmaly in bring. ing appeals from a superior judge before an inferior; and thlough this arg ent might seldom apply with respect to English causes, it certainly did as to the Scotch since the individual to whom he had alluded was in judicial authority inferior to the Lord President of the Court of Session. Supposing, then, tbat the judgment was always that of the indtvidual who presided in the absence of the Lord Chancellor,there was this objection to be made; but if it was said that the house decided, then he would ask who were the colleagues by whom that individual was assisted ? How could the judgment be said to is that of their lordships as a bod when the regulation made by the house fbr hearing appeals proceed ed on the supposition that each noble lord attended only one day ? He did not mean to say that the regulation precluded any noble lords from attending; but in fact no other. were expected to attend besides those whose names were in the order. This arrangement,in his opinion, tended to lower the dignity of the house in the eyes of the public, and he hoped it would not be continued. There was another subject which affected the dignity of that house, and also of the other house of Parliametit, to which he wished to call the atten. tion of their lordships: he allued to certain of the forms and part of the practice of both houses. Nothing could have a worse tendency than the restriction imposed on their lord. ships' house as to originating certain bills; for that restriction was not merely confined to money bils, but extended to those for promoting various useful changes and imuprovements in which it might be necessary to enact a penalty. This practice arose out of constitutional jealousy, which Might be misapplied. Hc didi not mean tothrovw any- rieed6 on'he other lrous&-~ tlhe O.sage had growiq up, graduially, pethai b Weause their lordships had ne- glecte to niake apr e iaal9 ii the first instance. Ini conse. quence,owever1o tir#rtino their lord hip a to or.gi t iog b%ill the a terhuse of araent was se- riously aiet&td fo bil aeu nsuch nurmbers at the close of' a session, that thei nodhish d alternative left beut to reject .them, i t was Virety evdn,ta ythis practice their lord. *ships were depinve oandvtaehihwas due to thenm-that oji taking their pro r hr ntetancto of public affatirs. The Earl of lERO Lwsomwasupied at the ob- servations of the noble lord, as they cranyhdodirect reference to themnotion before the house, whicws henmaton Or a com- mnittee to inquire into the state of tbe ofiHce of Clerkc of Parliament. The regulation of the house which tbe noble lord had now thought orper to attack,was one which haLd beOn the result of a long and de-. lirbe,rate ainquiry, mnade by a committee~ whose recommendation was adopted after mature consideration by the hiouse. Thie course now resorted to was considered by the house to 15e the best mode of cur- ing the crying grieyance of thie great-arreor of appeals. The whole questiboen was referred to a committee of the h,ouse, composed of per. sons beInging to all parties, among whom were some of the most eminent members of their lordships' house, anidesome of these, from ltheL- connexion with that part of theLUnite Kingdom moat lkely to be affected by the miemure, were the heat qusliledto judge of ita pro- priety that could have been chosen. After the fuillest consideration of the report of the committee, by the house, the plan now acted upon wa vg etpWd lt was true their lordships hiad but a choice of evils. The commiiittee proposed what appeared to Lthem as the beat regula- tion, ansd which, after several long debates, was, agreed to. The preat object pso'posed to be attained by the regulatiQn, was to do jstice to the appellants, whQ called for dhe decision of the house on utheir cases, and m iore pardicularly to those ef that part of the United Kinigdom to which the greatest arrear was due. There certainly was same difference of opinion as to the mode proposed in the comimittee, but thete was no di%frence of opinion as to the necessity of getting rid of the arrear of appeals by somec means or other. Their lordships must be aware, that a comlmission of in- cuiry into the administration of justice in Scotland was going on. T~heyreport of that commiaision would soon be laid bef'ore Parlia-. ment, and ht' hoped that, in consequence of it* rccoinmeridation, measures would be ad6pted to lessen the number of' appeals ; but if their lordshlips were certain that the system of, adrninis- tpring justice in Scotland was perfect, still it would he ne- cessary, to get rid of the existing' arrear of appeals. The measure was therefore likely to be of a temporary nature.. At anly rate, when it was adopted, the proposal of any other plan would have bpen readily listened to ; but that now acted uipon was then thought the best, a-nd experieng-e had proved it to be very efficient, 'Wixth re - spect to the discredit into which the noble lord was afraid the judi- cial authority of the house wouild be brouight, he couildnot see hiow that was likely to be the result of an evident wishi to do justice. As to the objection taken to the mode ofsecuring tie attendance of Peers he con-. ceivedit to be of little weight. Ife must maintain, that whether three lords or thirty were present, the decision which they cAme to was the decision of the house, and was as complete as if' every noble lord weseini his place wfhen it wvas made. By the regulations made for their lordships' governmeplt three p~eers constituted a house ; but by the regulations of ithe ?1ommona, forty members must be present before that hduge was formed. But w;as it ever meant by these re- gulations that the numbers required tobe present at the comnmence- mentof asittng mst cntine unil ts close, or until the business befoe rhn~ as cnclued?Ther cerainy was no obligation ofthtlat kind A lmite numer ws neessay i either house to set the, procedigs -gong,andto ontnuethe; but it was not expected tha th sae idrAduls houd awas he present. Though cer- tainlord wer sumone to tten onthle hearinig of appeals, it was1 not to be supposed that no other noble lords were present. TIhose tu whose judgnient in m-atters of that kind the house was accustom-- ed to pay respect were often, in their placs. A noble and learned friend of his (Lord Redesdale), who was exemptedI on account of his age, and whose name had not beeni drawn, nevertheless gave his at- tendance on appeals. In fact the proceedings in appeals went on precisel as befbre, every membler of the house being at libeity to at- tend if ~e pleased : the only, difterence was, that measures were nowe taken to secure a House of Peers. It Ihaving, after mnature consider- ation, been decidted that the p resent plan should be u-dopted, lie trusted that their lordships would give it a fair trial, Lorri CALTHQRPE explained. Lord HOLJLAND concurred in the justice of the observations made by the noble baron (Caltlio e), and thought it Iris duty to say a few words on this stubject. tt was perfectly true, as the noble earl had said, that the present plan of hearing appeals was adopted, after much consideration, last session; and it was also perfectly true that the subject was involved in miuch difficulty : but he inust, in justice to himself, say, that when he came to consider the niature of the plan, he could not help saying thien, and now, that it was a most censurable Parliamentarv proiceedling-one whichi operated more against the honour and the fouindation of the dlignity of Parliamient, than any- with which lie was acquaintedl. The noble earl was of opi- nion, that die regulation worked well and conveniently for those who applied to avail themselves of its operation. lBnt whiether it hadl this efflact or not, it afforded the first instatice of a distinct ex- posure to the prublic, that the decisions miade withiin these ,ralls were not the decisions of the -louse of Peers, but of certain individuials, and that their lordahips, as to any judgment which was giveni, were reduced to the state of mere cipheri. This was the first tinre in which it had been determinedthiat their lordaships should be calledon, by name, to attend in their placesandI do their ,luty. This proceed. in,of whichi convenience was the ratio sruasoriai a's well as the ratio jrcrljicatoria, was pregnant withi evil. After more reflection on the subject, he must assure their lordships' that it appeared to hinii that it would be better even to make some encroachment on the constitution, than to vo on. with suchi a reguilation as tires. It woud b beterto p oint a committee, and invest it withi the ju- dical utoriy o te house, than to adhere to a measure whiichi wassapin th repet due from tire public to the house. it as ertinl tre tat no law decisions were adopted without coni- sultng he nbleandlearned persons w*h.o presia~ed, or hiad scats in thehoue. ut hatwasnot necessary. Every noble lord was entitled to vote according to his owvn opinion : he knew of no distinction of learned aLnd unlearned lorda-they were all pares in parlhamento. They were all equall peers, whiether they sat on a woolsack or oni a bench; but now, fur the first timie, this resolution repecting the hear. Ing of' appeals informed the public that there were distinctions arrong themn-thatitwas not the body of the peers who gave judgmnent, but other persons who attended and decided for them. Ile knew it would be said, that, it had always been so.-that the decisions were formerly giveni by the law lords wlho attended, but tire differ- once was very great when the fact was so distinctly exposedL Every nati in the country was aow informed of the manner in which this business was managed, and knew perfectl] w ell that one noble lord wvas sumnioned to hear an appeal on the Mlonday, and another noble lord to hear the continuance of the same appeal on the Tuesday. He 'li no men t sa tht ay pactcalinjstce was donie to the appelans b ths rgulaion bu wht h obected to was the expo- lurewhic itcreaed,and hich asa meberof that house, in which he hd senta cnsierale artof ristime, he could not but de- plor. Idee, h wold ot ow avesaid what he hiad stated on thi sujec ha henotfel itto e hs dty o uppoirt the observa- tioso h noble lordl who had sojsl ecibed the manlier in wihteouse was lowering tR tnpbi opinon The noble earl opposite had stated that this mauewsmrly a temporary sne. He sincerely hoped itwol prv so. He hioped that the result of the commissio i Sctland ivould soon enable their lordahips to return to the ancient regular practie., The commissioners would deserve well of this house and of the tountry, it they were the means of correcting thepresentirregularities in the appellant jurisdiction of the lhouse, andI renderinig it palatable. As it now stooed, its exercise appearedi a sort of juggle. One personi hears and another decides a cause; or rather the samie personi both hears and decides, and the others attend mere-ly for form. The Earl of HAROWVBY obiserved, thiatif the noble lord thoughit the present state of the appellant julrisdiction unpalatable, hiis speech was not calculated to make it less so. The soleobjectof theregulatiola was to enable the house to get through the cases which were in arrear, after which the flormer practice whiceh the noble lord so mnuch preferred would be resumed.] The advantages of the present course had, in the mean time, been proved. In the short tinie which had elapsed since the regulation was enforced, not less than nineteen easer )f appeal hadl been disposed of. Wlith regard to the discredit, how- nver, which was so much inisisted on as a nece-ssary consequence of this regulation, he was at a loss to understand hiow it could arise. HeI apprehiended, that it was not more notorious that tire House i)f L-ords met in Westminiister, thian thiat when appeals were heard, it was aLttended only by as many peers as were suffici- ent to make a house. The question was, whiethier it wasi probable that there would be suchi a certainty of voluntary attendance oil the part of pears as not to expose the persons who rent coussel to the bar to an unnec-essary expense- It was, however, alwvays at~ the op- tion of any noble lords to uttend, and therefore the question as to the hearing of appeals remained precisely on the samie footing as before. The Earl of DARNLJEY expressed his approbation of that part of the-noble baron's (Lord Calthorpa's) speech which related to tIre legislative functions of' the house, and expressed a hiope that the noble earlI opposite, or some other person, would originate somie maeasure, which, without inifringing on the privileges of the other house ofPrimn,mgtsret orc le evil. Themoioiapitnthmebrofhe comuiittee to iniquire intO ttireofc rCeko alaetwsde agreed to. The aruso ASOW prsnepetitions from Devizes, Calne, an hpehm ryn o h bltion of Negro slavery. The Er of DARNLEY- alluded to what the Earl of Liver- aol1 had statedl on a former day respecting the removing of tire duty From Irish linen. He thoughit it singular that the noble earl should ihot have been better acquasinted withth te state of that manufacture ; but he believed the rolele earl was now aware tirat there was a con- sider-able exportation of coarse linen frons Ireland. Thze effect of the noble carP's atamement had -already been seriously felt, as orders for coarse linen to a considerabi4 eL cxnt had been countermianded. Hle intended to move for sonic documents w'hie4h would afford infor- mnation to the house on the subject of this manufacture- The first was the report of a conimittee of the House of Comnmons, which satin 1822, on the listen trade of Ireland. In tlhat report it was seated thatli eveyidence proved the continuance of the brunty to be esseatial to the existence of that infant manufacture. He would next move for a return of the weekly salc of linen in Cork during the last three years; a7ad also for an account of the number oftconvictions under the Insurrection Actduring thesame three years. On acompa- rison of those accounts, lie was assured that their lordships would find that in proportion as tire linen nianufacture increased, the con- vietions decreased. This was a circumstance which lie trusted would deter the noblc earl from extinguishing that manufacture, which was so important to the peace and prosperity of the south of Ireland. The Earl of LIVERPOOL would not object to the production of any information which tIe noble earl might consider necessary to throw light on die state of Irelwnd. He had formerly explained, that when the noble earl first put a question to him respecting the exportation of coarse linen from Ireland; he was not aware that any eai taken lace, as no bounty had been demaanded. As soon as he ascertained that the fact was not as he had at first supposed it to be, he flt that it was but just that the same relaxatien ui withdrawing the bounty sbould be observed as with respect to the fine linen. He was, however, far from admitting that it was advantageous to foster by artificiaL means asny manufacturc. InEtead, there- fore, of wishing to preserve this trade, he should think it far more aIvisable to withdraw the bounty altogether-not sudden- ly indee buit grauaUy, and so as to produce as little shock as pos- sible. No man looked more anxiously than he did to the establish- inent of manufactories in Ireland, but-he wished that advantage to take place tlsrough the investinent of capital by natural means. The getting rid of an artificial system was always difficult. In removing the evil, it was necessary to. avoid violence, bat it would be most impolitic to attempt to bolster up such a system. The Earl of LIxiE atcr and the 91arquis ofDowNSsHhRE depre- cated any rash removal of the bounty from Irish linen. Tire Marquis of LAN'8DOWNS observed, tiat the reason why little coarse linen appeared to be scat to foreigh countries ftom thle sautb Qf Irel , was, t4at tlnefpeatr part of it went in the fi:st instance t6 Scoti id in order to be afterwards exported to South Americm. The* vicious policy of bounties having unfor. tunately been encouraged, coald not be rashly withdrawn ; but he oo)ed to see tue day when no such thing as a bounty should exist. shemotions of ?ord DAnNLE"Y were then agreed to. 'T'he Austria loan bill wras comumitted. and the next stage ordered for Thursday, when Lord HOLLAN~D intimated that he would pro- pose an amendment._..Adiourned. HOUSE OF lIORDS. TUESD.4Y. MAAru 9-