House Of Lords, Friday, J...
The Times, 1824-06-12T00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY INTELLIGENCE- The larl or KINffSTON moved that certain petitions telative to the affairs f Ireland be referred to-the committee on. the disturbed The karl of TLAIlR[CK, vail'ed himself of the present oppor- tunity to set himself'rigbt with theirlordships, by correcting a mis- representation of his conduct rnade last night he' believed uninten- tionally, by a right rev. prelate, at a time wben lie was not present to reply. He bad been charged, not by name, but by description, with imp,roper conduct in opposing the i3uilding of a church ; for the parish lu ed to in the dity of Limerick (St. Michael's) was his property. He would in a few words, explain to their lordsleips the circumstancesof te case, and they would readily perceive how unfcunded the charge n.ade against him was. His predecessor and himself had let a considerable part of the property adjoiniing to Li- merick on building leases. He had himself built a church on his property; andthiswasafactwhichwould seem tobearontheface of itsufficient proofthathe was no enemy to the building of churches. After the building was finished, he applied to the Bishop forconsecration, and consented to give up the fuill control of the church to the clergyman, making only one condition,-that no gead body should be buried in it. Notwithstandin- this hecouldnot get the bishop to consecrate the church which was aIready built. The lergy had their reasons for wishing another, but he felt that he should ill consult the interests of his tenants if he submitted so far as to consent to the building of another church, and therefore lie had refused. Lord GORT said, that the noble earl's conduct with respect to this business had been generally condemned. The fact was, that the parish of St. Michael waa without a church, attd the noble earl had refused the ground necessary forbuildingone. because he thought he should not get enough lof rent. The state o(f the case was ex- plained in apetidon whicb he should by and by present to their lordships. There were two Catholic and two dissenting chapels for whicb the noble earl received rent, but no church in the parish. Thie whele parish had been disgusted at the conduct of the noble earl in refusing ground for a church. The harl of LIMERICK could not understand on what ground the noble viscount had made such such an assertion as that which lie had just advanced. He could assure their lord- ships that it wds total'ly unfounded. To his certain know- ledge the great majority of the parish entertained a totallv different opinion, and lie was h-mself convinced that it would be to abandon the interests of the people of the parish if he consented to the demand which had been made upon hire. The noble viscountsaid that the g:ound was refused because a sufficient rent was not offered. This he denied. No sum had been offered. The persons who wished to build the church were aware that no terms could induce him to consent, becuse it was well knawn to them that he would never consent to do an act vhich must prove injurious to his tenants. WVith regard to the chapsels which had been built in the parish, be would only say, thattneshould consider hirnself as acting a very improper part, if on account of reigious opinions he refused )permission to build to any persons coming forward and ffering a proper rent. The Ro- man Catholics and Dissenters had their rights. which surely ought to be respected; and instead of throwing r any impediment in the way of their building places of worship he woald rather do any thing in his power to facilitate that object. The Earl of DARNLEY expressed his satisfaction at the pro- reference to the comm ittee on the disturbed districts in Ire- land In his opinion, the state of the church was one part of the question relative to that country which imperatively called for in- quiry. lHe wished that the petition, which prayed foe inquiry into the state of the church of Ireland, should be referred to the com- niittee, and intimated his intention of moving for some docu4nents which would be necessarv for their lordships' iniformation. The Earl of LIVERPOOL did not wish to obiect to the produc. tion of any information which mpight be desired; but if the petition to which the noble lord had alluded chould be referred to the com- mittee, it was not theretbre to be untderstood, that an inquiry into the church of Ireland was to form any part of the business of the committee. It was with satisfaction he recently heard the roble carl observe that the most advantageous InanTer of proceeding would be to limit the inquiry of the committee: but, on the con- trary, he now appeared to wish to extend it. lWrhether the petition was referred or not, he could not agree into an inquiry into the state of the church. The labour of the Committee would never termninate if inquiries into every subject of grievance which any body mighit suggest, were to be thrown upon them. The Earl of DARNLEY agreed in the propriety of limiting the inquiry of the committee; but. nevertheless, thought the state cf the church a proper object. Lord CIIFDI: thoaght that the inquire could not be too fill, and that the chtarch of Ireland ought to form a material part of it. He believed that forssgn powers paid great attention to Ireland, and in confirmation of his opinion, quoted a paragraph from the Morn- ing Ch1ro;ick1,'in which Mr. Sculley's Treatise on the Irish penal laws was stated to be now translating into the Russian language. The predominance of this country was a thorn in the side of thelioly Alliance, and when a convenient opportunity arose, he had no doubt they would disclose their designs. A few nights ago he had expressed his opinion, that if the Catholics were not satisfied, they would when a war again occurred seek foreign aid. His noble friend (Lord Limerick) tioubted anv such disposition, but he was convinced it existed. The noble' lord then adverted to the Irish rebellion, and other rub,ects. The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke to order. As the qtues- tionh, whether certainpetitionis should be referred to a committee, he ct;Td not see why the time of the house should be farther taken up with topics of the kind which had been entered into. 'Lorl CLIFDEN said he would take up very little nore of their lordships' time, and after a few observations on the state of Ireland sat down. The motion of Lord Kingston was then agreed to. Sir J. GRtAHAM and others, brougist up from the Commons a number of private bills, which were read a first time. A return was presented from the commissioners of new churches, containing an an account of the expense already incurred in building. The Earl of LAUDERDALE tnade some observations (as we understood) on the MlIanchester gas bill, in the course of which he stated that, under all the circumasaces, he would advise the lice and magistrates notto act underit, end intimated that ho wouAd, next session, bring in a bill for its repeal- PARISH OF ST. MfICHAEL, LIMERICK. Lord GORT rose to present the petition to which lie had before alluded. It was from the inhabitants of the dty and liberties of Limerick, who complained that they had suffered for a series of years from bardens thrown on them in consequence of no taxes being paid by the parish of St. Mtichael. That parish, which be- longed to the noble earl (Limerick), did not pay a single grand jury tax. The petition stated, that in consequence of an arraRgement be- tween the noble earl and the commissioners, a bill had been passed in 1807, by which the parish of St. Iichael was exempted fro:n grand jury taxes for paying 5001. a-year. The petition prayed for relief; and after it was read, the noble lord dwelt for some time on the hardship which the aerangement atluded to had imposed on the petitioners. The Earl of LIMERICK hoped that he should be excused for saying a few words in reply to the charge of jobbing which was made against him, and which, notwithstanding the powerful oratory with which the noble viscount had supported it, he conld easily refute. It was pretended that al attempts to establish an equal svstem of taxation in this dominion of his hiad been defeated by him, and in support of this assertion an act of Parliament had been re- ferred to. ln fact, there were two acts. WVith the first, which re- lated to gr-.and jury taxes, he had nothing to do, for it was passed in the time of his predecessor. As to the last, it bad been thought ad- visable to enter into anm arrangense.t for settling the differences be- tveen the town of Limerick and the parish of St. MtAichacl, on the subject of taxation. In virtue of this arrangement it was set. tlcd. that.on the peyment of 500L the parish should be allowed to govern itself withi respect to the expenses of lighting, paving, and other local burdens. This was the real state of the tase; yet here was he standing before their lordships to exculpate himself from the charge of having procured the passing of acts of Parliament, one of which passed before he was born, and the other was enacted with the consent of the noble viscount, and all the parties concernetL The consequence of passing the last act was, that the affairs of the paish of St. Alichael were well mauaged. It exhibit- ed a very different appearance from the parts of the town under the government of the corporation, where the streets were full of holes large enough to swallow up waggons. The corporation of Limerick, like other torporations which existed in Ireland, had doubtless once been useful, but they hadl long oalived their utlity, and one of the greatest evils w hich now afflicted the country was to be found in those corporations. The E:arl of C',LARE informed theirlordships, that it was intend- ed to bring in a bill next session to remove the inequality oftaxation complained of. Lord GORT said that, notwithstanding what the noble earl bad said against' the cororation of Limerick, it was not an hour since he had been informed by a letter, that the noblelord had expressed a wish to become a member of that abhorred corporation. The Marquig of LANSDOWN appealed to their lordships, to say whether a subject of this kind ought to be aUlowea to take up so much of the time of the house. As business of a public interest stood for discugsion, he thought tkis which was of a private nature, should give vway and more espteialMy as their lordships -were in- formed that a bill on the subject would be brought forward next sesion.-The petition was then laid on the table. Lord SUFFIELD presented a petition from the inhabitants of Old-street.road, in fayour of the equitable loan bill, and Lord KExrYOx presentedone against it from certain pawnbrokers. Se- veral other petitions for and against the bill were preseuted. The Mlarquis of HUNTLEY presented a petition from Cro. marty, for ameliorating the condition of the West India population. The Marquis of LANSDOWY presented a petition from the Dissenters of the boron h of Wraec, against the test act; a petition from Robert Wallace,orreulstingweights nud mcasures, which he ebseiedcontained very elabborate caicilations; and a petition from Jfoseph Godfrey Ham p ton, praying that an inquiry might be instituted into the Roman C athoixc church and the established church. Mr. Payne Knight's legacy bill, bequeathing lii5 collection of an- tiques to the British Ill useum was read athird time and passed. NORFOLKZ ASSIZES. Lord SUFIEELD had a petition to present which claimed the se- tiouc attention of their lordaips. It was from the magistracy of the county of Notfolk, agreed to at a regular meeting, and prayed that boils the spring and summer assizes might be held at Norwich instead of the peent arrangement, according to which the spring assizes were held at Thefford. The nobWe lord stated from his own knowledge many great inconvenience3 attending the present arrange- ment, and described the bad state and imperfect accomnmodation of the gaol of Thetford. Among other things, he said that eighteen persons had been confined in a cell 13 feet below-sh surface of the ground. This dungeon, she dimensions of wlich he had taken himn- elf, was only 17 feet9 inches long2 9 feet 4 inches broad, and 8 feat 3 inches high. The wretched presonrs were obliged to lie with the head of one between the feet of another; and so noxious vras the efRuvia which issued from it, that when the gaoler opened the ioor, he was obliged to retreat back as quickly as possible. The Duke of GRAFTON said a few words, disapproving of the prayer of the petition. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he had received petitions on di. subject, and had referred himself for information to the Judges sho had reported againat the removal of the assizes from Thetford to Nlorvich. The subjeotwas, however, still under consideration, end se should certainly object therefore to any proposal for a comnmittee. Lord SUFFIELD said he should not press for a committee, after what had fallen from the noble and learnedlord; and, as the subject was still under consideration, he trusted in the result the prayer of the petitioners would be granted. The petition was then read, and laid on the table. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the tliird reading of the ounty courts bill was-postponed till londay. On the motion of Lord COLCOESTER, the Scotch appellate ju. risdiction bill went through a committ Earl GROSVENOR rose tomovothcetondresdisgofthegame lawa'- e dment h ill. -He stated that teg bill b$oze tobr io#dbis .. . . . had only or.e single object-namely, to) repeal all the laws which rendered it penal eitber to sell or to havc game in the possessiou of an unqualified perron. The billleft the question of property in game, and tlhe qualifcation for killing it, exacdly on. the footing which it at present stood. After the discussiona which had taken place on this subject in another place, he would not occupy their lordships' time vwith manv arguments; but he contended, on every principle of poli- tical econi,mv, that the adoption of this measure wvould increase the supply; and hus lowering the price, would as a consequecca dimir.ish the temptation to poachling, which at present was felt an evil of the gtreatest ipagnitudc. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he had heard the amusementsofpersons in the country during thesnontha of Septema- ber and Octo'ber called killing time, if it were not killing game, and when he looked at this mnultuin fnsparvo (for it was the smallest bill he had ever seen),and consideredthat thisverymeasure had occupied five months in another place, and had proauced what he now held in hisl hand (here his lordship took up an immense bundle of papers from the table), he could not but think that tthis simple pro- position of the noble earl would draw others after it, and that they were but kiUinz time in attenmpting to pass this bill. The noble earl hid spoken of game as if It were property: if tbat were Fo, what occasion was there for a law to enable any one to sell it, since that was an incident of property. Ile should oppose the bill, as it would take away that recreation which had been the principal amusement of his Jife, and would leave others of the rame profession with himself in a similar destitute situation. Poach- ing undoubtedly was a great evil; but he could not help thinking that if thev enabled the poulterer to buv and sell, or rather to sell only (for he would never buy), they would aggravate rather than di- minish the evil. It was notpossible to identify a pheasant or a par- tridge if taken to market by the poacher. Poaching, he Tepeated, was a great evil. The poacher spoiled that sort of sport of which he (the lord Chancellor) was an admirer, and in which he was broughtup * though he must ownz that he vras a poaches himself till he became qualified. (A laugh.) Topersons spGrting as he did (among persons who stood in the relation of farmers to him, and those farmers servants who looked on him, he hoped, with no di- like), this bill would create some disstisfaction ; for though, as to the gamne itself, a partridge would serve hin for a month, yet if the bil passed, he did not believe he should be able to find a bird, or get a single shot. The house must consider that they did not go single-handed to this business, but that the game had already been pursued for fire months by other persons; and lie would put it to them, w! ether it was of any use to pass this bill when those persons had been occupied on it so long, and vet had not been able to come to any conClusion. Ile certainly did anticipate some diffierence of Opinion on this subject, as ther, had been in other matters, between himself and the noble earl in the blue riband, and which had been so frequently adverted, to that even a game bill was not to be exempted from the introduction of the topic. lie did not believe that the attachment which that noble earl had for binm would be forfeited for those differences of opinion, and he was very sure that it would require much more to inducehim to rithdraw his attachment from the noble earl. Lord DACRE said, he was friendlv to this or any similar Tie- ire, not for the sake of the gamne, bit for the amelioration of the lower orders of our agricultuiral population. The commitments for infractions of the game laws had gone on increasing to a most alarm- ing degree, and it wai a matter of necessity that something should be (lone. ife contended, witlh all humility, though he differed from thenoble and learnedlord,that from thelanguage of a statute of Henry VIII.,and Srom .somelegal decisions,thatgame wasproVerty.Thegreat [evil was the want of a moral feeling in the minds of the lower orders upon the subject of game,which lie feared the bare rendering the sale of gamelegal would not create. If the noble lord would originate an- other. measure, so framed as to raise that moral feeling on which he (Lord Dacre) laid the utmost stress, the country would be obliged to him, and it would be a greater amendment of the criminal code than any of the speculative improvements of modern tinies. Lord CALTHORPE supported the bifl,as it appeared to him cal- culated to produce much goed, tending, as it did, to diminish the mass of outrage, fraud, and violence, which at present prevailed. The change of the law was more gradual than had been contemplated by the measure which had been introduced in the other House of Par- liament; and it did no, therefore, follow, because that measure had never reached their lo,;sips' house. that the present bill would be obiected to. Under all the circumstances, he did not think that, though the session was so far advanced, their lordships should delay, eve' for a single winter, the attempt to rescue the agricultu- ral population from a state in wvhich evil was in a manner enforced upon them. The Duke of RICHiMIOND opposed the bilL If it wereto pass, he did not see the possibilitv of ever convicting a poacher. The Marquis ef SALISBURY would not oppose tthe bill in its presentstage, though, unless great alterations and additions were made in it, he shonld feel it his duty to do so on a fature occasion. The Earl of CARNARVON, adverting to the statement of the noble and learned lord, that lie had hiimsclf violated the law as it respected the came, not when lie was a boy, but when he vas a voung man tit Oxford, and now that he was mature in age and knowledge of tie law, he spoke of it, not with regret, but with un. affected merriment and delight-how, he would ask, could any poor man suppose that he was comimitting a crime for which he was to be punished as a felon, if he had heard or read the noble and learned lord's specch ? Though he did not disapprove of the present mea. sure so far as it went, yet lie thought it would be mucl better if at the commencement of the next session a measure were introduced upon a more extended nature. Earl GROSVENOR briefly replied, and expressed his intention, after what had faUen from his nohle friends near him, of not pressing the bill nertinaciously on their lordships. The question was thea put, and the bill was negatived without a division. MWELCH JUDICATURE. Lord KENYON moved the commitment of the bill for enlarg- ing the powers of the Judges of Great Session in Wales. Lord CAWDOR expresoed his intention of proposing alterations to some of the clauses in the committee, at the same time he thought the scope and object of the bill ought to be explained to the house. Lord REDESDAIE said, the main object of the bill was the saving expense to the suitors, by obviatinr, the necessity of bringing certain actions into the courts of 'Westminster-hall. The Earl of LIVERPOOL wished the committee to be post- poned till Mloaday or Wednesday. The Marquis o'f BUTE, as he could not attend next week, made a few observations in opnosition to the bill. Tne discussion was tnen postponed till MTonday. PEERAGE ATTAIN DER R1IVERt5AL BILLS. TheEarlorSfHAFTESBURY brought up,thereportof the cons- mittee of privileges on the bills for reversing the aatainders of the Earl of Alarr, Lord Stafford, &c. The Earl of RADNOR objected to the Words " grace and fa- vour," as applied to the bill for the reversal of Lord Stafford's at- tainder. lhe noble earl, as we understood him, proposed as an amendment that "justice" shoald be substituted instead of these expre.sions. A1tera few observations from Lord LIvERPOOL, Lord REDEs- DALE, the LouD CUANCELi.OR, and Lord GuBosvExor., the amendment was negatived wi.hout a division, anti the report re- ceived and agreed to. The bills to be read a third time on londay. The weights and measures bill was committed and reported. 1 he various private bills before the house were then forwarded in their stages, and the house adjourned at 10 o'clock till Monday. - HIQUSE OP LORDS. FRIDAY. J"2E 11.