House Of Lords, Friday, F...
The Times, 1824-02-14T00:00:00

P7LI4ETRFIVELGNE The Earl of SHAFTESBURN; laid on the table an account of the number of conivicts sentenced to transportation on board of the hulcs.-Ordered to be printed. A person from the India House presented an account of tihe sa- laries. pensions, and gratuities granted by the East India Company, anid other annual accounts. made up to the latest date. Earl GROSVENOR presenWl a petition from the mavor and corporation of Slhaftesbury, pra)lMg for relief fron tbe duty on coals carried eoastwise. SINECUXE PLACES. Earl GROSVENOR moved fer an account of pensions, sine- cures, and reversions granted during the last year. The motion, Ile observed, was precisely the sanme as that which he had made last session, witl the exception of the necess ry difference ofl the dates. This nuotion being aigreed to the noble earl proceed- ed to advert to ccrtaji offices, the aboiitioni of which had been recommended bv the relort of the finanice comonittee, but spoke in so low a tone of voice that he could not be distinctly heard below the bar. We understood him to state, that according to pub- lic rumour, a new appointuneist to the office of King's Remem- brancer of the Eschequer had been made, in direct violation of the principle laid down in the report of the committee, which recom- I mended, that that and other offices executed by deputy should be i abolished when the present intcrests vested in them should cease. The noble earl also referred to the offices of Clerk of the Pells- and of the Lord .Justice General of Scotlan.L and wished to know whoc- Iher any regubtions had been adopted withi respect to them. As to the office of' llerk of Parliament, he recollected that the noble lord onposite had last year recommended the appointment of a commit tee, which would have to inquire into the (ldties of that office, parts pf which, he understood, it would be proper to preserve; but he thought that no timie ought to be lost in regulating it,and every other office of the sane deseription. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that the whole of the circum- stances to which the noble earl had alluded, as e:xhibiting a violation of the principle established in the finanice report, were unfounded. Some of the offices referred to were to be regulated under the au- thority of Parliament. One of these offices, that of Clerk of the PeDls, had very imnportant duties, which had hitherto been discharged by deputy. With regard to the office of E.ing's Remembrancer of the Exchequer, the regulation of which was un- dertaken by the Treasury, its duties had also hitherto been wholly executed by deputy, but it was the intenstion of Governmrent that this course should no longer be observed, but that it should be exe- cuted altogether by the principaL In consequence, however, of the measures recommended by the committee being now undergoing a re,. vision in order to their being carried into eftect, a gentleman of the Treasury had, in the mean time, been appointed to the office of King's Remembrancer. But this was a mere temporary appoint. inent. which had solely for its object the execution of certain duties which, by law, must be performed unitil the office be finally regu- lated. *ith regard to the office of Justice-General of 'Scotland, that was alto one in which regulation was to be applied as speedily as possible. The regulation of the office of Clerk of Par- liament lay chiefly with their lordships' house,. and he had no objec- tion to the subjeet being taken into consideration in the present session. The Marquis of LANSDOOWN observed, that it had been re- commended, that bills should be introduced for regulating the offices zeferred to in the report of the Finance Committee, and' he should bizvo,pected that bills vwould have been brought down for that pur- ase a;won as possible, it order that the regulations might be made y act of Parliament. As yet, however, no such bills had come be- fore the house. T he Earl of LIVERPOOD-reminded the noble marquis, that by the act of Parliaeent already pnssed, it was competent for the Trea- susry to' emake, la he fices pointed out, such regulations as appeared to be cdled fior. Thi5 was to be done on the responsibility of the Treasury. WYhatregatlons ought to be madein the officeot'Remem- tbrasrcer of tle Exchequer or any other office,,could not be explained ^b} :the alt rations wnich might be necessdi!y should be asxertain. e n the mc tine it was certain, that no appointments were made to offices of this descriptione except such as were perfectly tewiiomr3rand indispensable for the exeqution of particular duties. Xe~fi arquls of ;A$SDOWN rdfot~4rked, that the office of Re- sternbrancer. Clerk of the Pell5, and others, come tinder the general division in the xeamott of offlices execeuted by depu.ty. lIfe was aware, however, that under the act of'Farliamens, itwtas competent for the ~zeaassrY ug pr t0 ~etmlts thq >the Map mu02t conve. nient, ConsistentVith thc spirit of the report. tHC- thtt codtversa- tion on this suiect ended-i THE. TREAD. 1MI I . The Marquis of LANSDO,WN wishdev before he sat downi to taake notice of a reporc whielh had renehed'hiM , connected wi the subject of prison discipline in general, but moreparticularly nith the enforcement of hard labour previous to CQOvictioSS. Nothing of this kind was understood to be contemplated by the act which eame from the other fIonAse ofLParliament, and he was certain that Done of their lordships who sat on the conimitteq to wvhich the bill vas re ferred ever supuosed that such an interpretation W1as to be iven to the lanw. It was clearly understood that the aur.ishmert of the tread-. mill was never to be enforced except on conviction. On this subject, there had been no di;ffer.nc. ef opinion in the comumittee, and had it ever been supposed that any doubt could arise in the breast of the mag'istrates as to the sense of the clause autlhorizing *ite employment of the tread-mill, he was fully convinced that the committee would not have hesitated to add a clause, making it Venal for any magis- trate to sanction such a principle as that ot punishment betore conviction. He would reter to the words of the clause, which had been adopte.d in the presence of twenty peers, among whom no doubt whatever prevailed as to its meaning. The clause made provisien for the enforcement of hard labour as a pu- nishment for convicts in Prisons, and for the fair eniplovment of others. The word " emplgyment" being contradistinguiied from hard labour, was a sufficient explanation of the meaning of the clause. Ile knew not whether any correspondence.had taken place between the magistrates who entertained doubts on this question, but certainly there could be in thelegislature only one opinion on the meaning of the act. He hoped this misunderstandiiig would be corrected, and thatc. species of punishment,liable to no objection in itself, should not be pervefted by an undistinguishing application. It was of the utmost importance that the ignominious stamp of the punishment should'be held up as a disgrace to be attached excli- sively to guilt ; and all persons in authority ought to be restrained by an express law, if necessary, from otherwise applving it. The Earl of lIVER POOI completely concurred with the noble imarquisin all thathe lad stated on thissubject- He perfectly agrced with him, that if the punishment of the tread-mill was applied pre- vious to sentence, suCl application was a violation of the letter of the law. The distinction between employment before, and punishment after -onviction, was uost material aid he would fikeely say, that if ank doubts really existed among the magistrates, they ought to be removed altogether by an act of Parliament, if necessary. The Marquis of LANSDOWIsN again expressed his surprise that doubts should be entertained by any person.-Adjourned to ilonday. HOt4SE OF LORDS. 1lnA. FtA . 13.