House Of Commons, Tuesday...
The Times, 1824-05-12T00:00:00

This being the day appointed to ba-llot for a c-ommniit'tece to consider the aboye petition, the gallr was not opened unitil halt-past thuir O'clock. rho tollowing menrrier wCr, in the course oft the evening. F3worn on the committee :_ ~irJ. W1. Mackenzie. Bart. 'E. Kt Portman, E,q. E, oes Esq. ISir G. Kerrisoni. Bart. F. Lawe,Esq. R .Coe s ln.JR.B. O'Neill RF.B Coortr ~Esq' H1. DruminonI E q. Si .X.Rdey at lHon. H. Li.da J.E cwewll, Esq. ..Bailey, Esq. Sir J-Y0RKE pre-sented a petitietn fromi the ship-owners and mer- chiants of Del, relative to thie state at thet harbouir.-Laid en thie table. Alderman H E YGATE presented a petition froni thie porters of Billingsgate, andi another fromn the overseers antI churchiwardlens of the parish at' St. Pauil, ShadWell. agaitise the St. Catherine's docks bill.-Referredi to the comamittee on the bill. Sir W. CONGPEV'E prerenteri a petition from the Chamiber of Comnmerce of Plvn-.outh. in favour of thie St. Carherine's docksi bill. -Referred to the' comimittee on the bill. Mr. GR HNFLLL presented - petition from Penzance, in favour of the St. Catherine's dock-s bill.-Referred to the comnmittee an the bill. Sir NlV. ROWLEY presented a petition from the innkeepers and licenised victuallers of Henlrv, Suffolk, praying for a re(IItirtton at the licence duties.-Latid onr t'he table. The honiourable Baroinetalso presented petitions from Stowmnarket, and IPs-wich, for the- repeal of the duty on foreign wool.-Laid on the table. The hionourable Baronet likewise presetited a petition f'rom the in. habitants ot Colniey, Suiffolk, against the warehoused %heat billk- Laid oni tlie table. slIr, BYNG presented at petition fromi EdImorton against negro sav;!ry...Ljai4 on the table. Mr. BONJHAM presented a petition from the licensed victuallers, of the town of Sandwich, agailnst the new beer bill. L-ord NZEAVRY presented a petition 1rom certair landholders and others in the north of Ireland. against the warehousttl wheat bill.- Laid on the table. A petition wax presented f'ront the town of' Leicester, against the niew beer bill.-Laid on the tatble. M1r. J. .M. PITT presenited a petition front tite licendvtul ler's of Cheltenham, against the niew beer bill.-Ordere t b printed. Mr. DAVESPOR'T presenited a petition from the licensed ViCtuatlleTs of3aIsciesfield, again,3t the new beer bill.-Ordered tobe printeri. SirJ. V'ORKE ptesenited a iia eiinfottepblicans and vietuallers of Lly, in tie c*snty at Cambrid4ze. 'I lie measure which had been intro'duced! by Iiis right lion, relation had creat(Il a I fernentation throughout the -country, which all the waters of the PacficOcen ould not allay. If hie looked into the qeto,h would, t';nrhaps. findi it more -prudlent to hack coti of it, at least for the Pr~ t lession.-The petition was laid on the table. tolone'l LESLIE presented a petItion from a bod(y of freemasons, resident in the towns of Ballybay, Pobeurrv, Clatleblaney, andi varousothr pace inthecouts'of uloaghan, Ireland, comLplain- big hattheywer by lae ar ofPariament prevented front hld.Ioi ingther metngsas heyfomery dd,and p rayingtot be 'placed Sn a foting wih tire reemasos of EnLand _Lid on the table. Mr. MA WELL pesente a siilar petition fromn tte free- masos o Cooehil, ad vriou otterplaces in the county of Ca- vari...Laid on the table. 3Mr. D(ERTON Presented a petition fromi- the inin-keepers~ and licensed vietuallers Of LitherweVite, Chesitire, against tIre new beer bill.-Laid on the table. 31r. HLODSON presented a petition fromn the clergy antid MagiN-' trate-s of the neighbourhood of 'tVigan. azainst tite new beer bill.- Ordered to be printed. M. T YV I LL presen ted a petition from ttIre tanniiers of tire ci ty of Yrk,aganstthe hides and skins bill.-Referred to the coim- witenitebill. M1r. LITTLETON presentedI a petition fromn tite buitchters and leather-sellers ofVValsall, in favour of the htides and skins bill.- Referred to the cnmniittee on the bill. Mr. TALBOT presented a petition from the grandl jury of the county ofDublin,againsttheDublin local taxation.-Laid on thetable. PETI[TION' OF JOSEPH SWANN. Mr. J. WILLIAMS said, the petition he was about to presenit was, so far as he knew, that of the only person now remaining in F titan on accounit of political offiences committed in the year 11119. was the petition of Josteph Swannt, who was in that year arrested in consequence of his having vended c-ertain political rurblications. The circumsntantce had alnto?st esc-aped Iris (Mr. Wlilliamsl's) re.. collection but he believed that in tire course of Idis prof'es. iional duty it had fafllen to his lot to prosecute this indivi- duald: as, however, the distance of time was so g-reat, he might be exusedfor ravig fogote the case of' the petitioner. although he was still in prsn. The petitionier stated, ttrat bre was fornierly a meichanic residinig in Macclesfield buit thiat, in consequence of a failure in his branch of business, be becante a vendor at books and pamphlets in that town. On tire 23r1 ot'August, MO1, he was apprehended for selling s~ome of those pamphlets, and detioned (though bail was offered) until the following sessions, in the month of October, being a period of upwards of eight weeks. In- dictments were then found against hint, and. he was admitted to bail, at these October ses,sions. lie was, however, againi arrested. on some ground wltiih he (M1r. Williams) couild not cam. prehnd, n te 28h oftheDeceberfollowing, and Itept in custdy tll he hlthfJansar. Hewason this occaision confined for pwads o te day inCheser astle. to wliceh place lie was taken chaied to othe prisners andhe (M1r. Wiillihiamslhrd too muchreaon o far, onsderng he emper of thec time, that there was sme tuth n thestatmentof te Petitioner, who complained of excessive rigour and violence haying been used toward s him in the early part of this business, by the magistrates. He was ultimately taken before the benich of justices, and, on the 12th of January, I82, he was tried on two indictments for libel; and en a third indictm-ent, cliarging him with having attended a meeting in the town of M1ac- dlesfield, the requtsition for which lite had previously signedl. That meeting was assembled, tause the terms Of theCrequisition, for thepur. pose of taking into considleration the most speedy and efficient means of effrecting a reformation in the Commons of England. Trhe pe. titiorer proceeded to state, that on that occasion he aever spoke one syllable ; but that the whole of the charge sought to be fixed on him applied to a per-son of tire narnie of BAuckley-, who spoke front the hrrstings at the tneeEing, antI who wa's indicted with hirtr. That man, however, thoughi lie was thie principal agent in the bursirreiss though, through his inistrumnentality, the meeting was fixed writh ttire crime of serlitior.-tlrouglt he wasi seers at large in tire towns of Swckportastd Macclesfield on various Occasitons, had ntever, to this hour, been called on to) be responsible for that which, to use the lainzuage of the petition, was the Yery heari arid front of' offertd ing" on the day of tihe mneeting. Ilie couldi offer ira explaitation, he could conceive no reason, why the principal offender was nlever brought to punilshmsent-was never even put on trial-when the otiter party Was ~rosecuted, and was vrisited with that puinishment to wiinch ne now caled the attention of the houise. TIhe petitioner proceeded to state, that he was sentenced, for the first libel, to two years' ias- prsoonnrent; for the second, to half.a.ye.sr's imprisoniment; and, fKr his attendance at the meeting. on te3tofJlprcdng, to an additional imprisasnment of two yasmkigatttier arn amount, including the imprisonmenttesfrdbfoersl of fouir years and three-quarters, as nearly as it possibly could be. The peti.. iion next stated 'ome circumstances relative to his being confined as a felon for one week after his imprisonmenit; but as hie (M1r. Wtil. llams) had no means of ascertainting thte fact, he wvould not press: the statemenit as one that ought to be relied on. But tire fact of the petitioner's impr isoment wa ndisputed. Hlaving taid thus miuch, and begging ev to ha've it'rinderstood tlhat, thougit engaged in the pros- cution, he had nothing to do with the previous troceedintrs, and stillD less with the ituantity of' punislinient that lhad ee wred, he wished-to make thtis observation, that rthe extent and amount of the purnishinent did speak niost foreiblx' for itself; and he did apprehend that the house would be of' opin lon, titat tlre petitioner was not far from the thet, when he stated, in his conclud. tng sentence, " That lire waus now abouit to terniriiiate a period of' impris,,nnient, exceedlingr, he believed, wtuat bad breen inflicted oi ainv persn Imonhrn imeef~rolitcaIffences"ll(,1dr.Wilflamns)wouIih owvergo arher an tae eav tosuges, that if the prinishment in thiscas, wrch intea ofbetg mderte,was carried to the extreme verg of eveity-f tat curs wer reorted to in consequence of' thepeclia apec ofth peiodwhn he was awarded-looking to the hane i ttrs ad crcustaces hic lid tken place sincee that Perio, it became a nratter of iseriu uya the part of the Government to reconsider the continunc an ttaionl of thlis indi- vidual's sufferings. Could itbe forgotten, that at the period o'f tinte to which he referred, there existed, to the knowledge of every gentle- man a egre o prssue ad dstrsswhich undoubtedly had the effet o igoran mids,and venon inds that could niot be dento. minaed gnoant ofprehucng iecntet and dissatisfactron..a de- gre ofprssue ad istesswhch edthem to combine the in- dicion at frtue wththeerrrsof G-overnmente (4enstle. ment must be perfectly aware that that season, and even, the recollec-. tian of it, had passed away, unless thiey were reminded of it by this u-rfortunate individual, who was now lingering out the remnnant of hi,; punishment. There particular punisltrsAen-ts wyere, it was saidf, necessary reinedies for particular nhiscorders. If so, he wotrrld risk wvhether it was safle or wise to keep up those purnishmentLs when the disorders had subsided ? Cotild thie right honou-rable gentlemtan (M r. Peel) have fbirgottf-n, or could Mlinisters have forgotten, that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer broughit forwardI his expos,ition of the financial state of the couintry, arudI expatiateri on its growing prspriy he was pleased to congratulate tile house on what hi teprmedthe restoration Of a gratefi people to girder, subordination, and constitutional obedience?, If tins w.ere so, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said; and if it were, aS he doubted aot it: was, a matter of heartfelt satisf'action to hlim, he tiiought that the right han. gentlemian ought not to keepall his plea. surable feelings to him%el, but e xtend them to his different col- leagues. If they, felt it to be a matter of bard and painful necessity to inflict on th e people somewhat of punishment for the sake of ex- ample under particular circumstansces, -would it not,I when those dir- Cumaance wee reoved bewiseandprudent to grant to that grate. fedpeole om sustatil poofoffavou and grsee,-to give to the soethng oretitn te vel1tured periods of the Chancellor of te Echeqer?'Woud i notbe ell to refrain from keeping up he mrd reain ofthi ma's unishiment? Be, however, caled ot or reisson f hs t,etenc~, because a few months wouild bring it to a close: he would theii go back to his f'riends with those feclisigs whiich were uisually created by excessive and distproportioned punishmnent. By inflicting suchi punishnients, the o'ffending. party aways secured thie sympathy of the people, whio Considered hiis fate not that of a culprit, but of a miartyr. He dlemanded, whether a practice of this kind was consonant witla the wise anid temperate policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ? That policy he.wished to be supported, and therefore hie shiould like to see a remission of the renainder of a seiitencee, which could onlv be accounted tor by the hard* necessity of the times; and it siho'isld be Observed, that that necessity was admiitted to have ceasedl long %ince.-The petition was then brought up. Mr. JAMES said, the severity exercised in this cnse arose out of the political agitations of the year 1819. It was u casie in which the char-acter of the Cheshire mnagistrates was deepl in- volved. A punishiment miore unwarranted by the nature ofteOf. fence, or the character of' tse individual, wa~s never inflictedl. It was a proof otf the crueltv that migh t be exercised by an unipaid msgistracy, aided by thatt power which a great man had well deno. minated " the fiendl, discretion." The petitionler was utterly un- acquainted, not onil' with thte contents of the books which he was prosecuted fer selli nc, huit he was almost igedrient of their title- pages. He had attended a meeting, at which, it appeared, he did not say any thing, but wvhere a person, named Buckley, used some language that was inflamantaory. For iis mnere attendance, the petitioner was puniished. lf this, were not sufficient to) enow the iniquity of the proceeding, it was only ne- cessarv farther to state, that for the last 12 months, the magistrates had b-cen endeavouring, niot personally, but through thec 'gaotler, to get this uinfortunate man to petition. for a remission of punisLhment. This ought to convinice the hotise that the magistrates were ashamied of their conduct. The petitioner did not, however, thinik proper.to acrail hinmself of this inivitationi. ife hias niot petitioned for a remis- sion Of hlis SenEence; but called on the house to Eake his case into consideration, lie was wilting to undergo tIsM sssartyrdotm for the sake of whiat hie conceived to be justice and truth, and thus to afford a= penen of wtcat might be carried on under a free go,.erylment proesig to be the envy of surrounding iaations and thie glory of thle world. M'r. PEEL, said he hiad hiad thec petition uinder consideration but unavoidable circumstaunces prevented hint fromn minutely inquir. iun into its allegations. It appeared toDconsist of two parts--one re- lating to the conduct which the petitioner experienced before hisi conviction-the other compplatning of the severity of the punishment inflicted on him after he had beeni found guiltv. Wlith respect to the first part, the learned gent. would din him thec 'justice to say, that the infonnation which hie comnmunic-ated to himn (Mr. Peel) wvas only general. The circumstance took place tour years ago, two yeara be- fore he (Mr. Peel) was connected withi his present situation in hiis Ma~jesty's (4overament. He therefore had no personal kniowledge of it; asnd the learned gentleman must htave k-noirn, that if he pre- sented the petition to-day, it was impossible for himi, oni so short a notice, to procure informnation on thiesubject. An inquiry would,how- ever, i.e instituted ; and he had no doubt, from the character of the maitrates, that a satisf'actory answer. would be given. The hiouse w"u'ltdl see that as he only heard of the subject yesterday, he could not give ani answer with respect to what took place four years ago., (Hecar.) Tile statemer.r, however, of a prisoner, oughit to be rtceived With considerable suspicion. It ,eas strange that, during aperiod of four years, lie hatdmadeit,ocomiplaint. (Hear.) As to tie second part of hits comiplatiit, relative to thc: severity of hiis punishmient, lie could not avoid sayving that he regretted Itei constanlt appeals whichi were ma1de as to dtie exercise of' thie prerogative of' iicercy, whcre eases lad beeni decided after clue deliberation. Of necessity, many of these appealst niusbt be refused, andI then obloquy was cast on Governmrent because they ditd not act contrary to their7coticiensious. conviction, lIIe felt it necessary, in tlis case, to sav', that it was not his intenition to advise his Majesty to extenid ttie prerogative of' mercy to this petitiotter. Itu a very few weeks the term of his sen- tence would brat ani end-andl, on findinig secat ity fur hiis good be. liaviouir for one year, lie w-ould receive his liberty. Hfe terefore would niot advise the Crown to shorten the termi. The learnied genitle. man seemed to thiink tnat somnething inconsistenti might be imputed to himin iipresenting this. petitioni, becaus~e lie had prosecuited the Calm. He (Mr. Peel) saw ito inconsistency in the learned gentleman's; conduct. He hiad lieufornieel his duty very temperately, and very cfficiently. Hfe hiad convictedt the 'offender, and he (Mr. Peel) saw othig inonsitentin Ite larned gentleman a now comig frwad wth apettio. Tere wvere five separate in. dictent agansttic defndat. wo for bIplaspemous piub. lictios-to fr te pbliatin o seitious libels-and onie for a tediiou cospiacy.On hre ofthoe indietnients he was fuuntl cuity,buttheothrs erenotproeeed with. He was not prome- Utetd witot due warning that his procednswere taken notice Of'. His fan ily was eeply, engaged in the inaos speculation, for so he miust cl t of selling blasphemous works. His tather lived in StockpOTt, andt was enga%ged in that traffic; thet-cin took up the samne business at .Macclesfield, and continued to carry it tin aft.er lie had received warning. His wif"e was~ apprehended at thie samie titne withk himrself', but shie wvas liberated, because lie said thiat he hid insti- tate,ad compelled her to sell thiose works. Now, though the pu- iishriernt wenit rathier to an, extraordinary extent, thiat of four years' rinprisonninent, yet it should be recollected, thiat it was af'ter Various Ianns n 'l or thiree distinct oiThences thiat he suflered. As to the ;etitius eetng,lie begged leave to ref'er the learned gentleman to usf ownt address, whent. lie left the ease to the jury. He litre called on them to -iy " Whether, looking to the seii. itnerts that were uttered, tbe defendants couldI have met for any~'other ?urpose but that of exciting the people to dlisa&fctioni, and briniging :hIe Giovernmnent of the counitly into hatred anid ccontenipit?;'Ti'le learnel miemaber also said, that they talked of a convention (a word borrowed front the worst period of' the French revolution) ats neces. !ary to coniplate their design; and he concluded by observinig, thatt he had Tstated every thing fcdrly ; for he never would hold a language different from what he had always hield, as to the righit of free and fair discussion." Contritioa was somnetimes an itigre. dient in the application for miercy ; but, in this ease, that ground was takeei away from the petitioner, whose conduct in court was most indecorouis atid conitem-ptuous. The honour. able gentlemnan who had spoken last seemedt to titiitik thaut uno. l eass Cthe prisoner was released. there wa-s an cnd to thlejright o0f n.N ILan to be called a free country! XVhy-, certainly it wasll a free! countrty for Joseph Swanm, the petitioner; but liow its free character was a l'ected as~ regarded any othier humian creature, he could riot see. Thle crimne for which t'he petitioner was suffering was one of the highest descriptioti : lie had been convicted upon amnple evidence, and, comaring his sentence wvitlh those whiceh ladl betti passed upon ote idviduals, he (Mr. Peel) did not tbink it a severe one.. Cer- tainly lie hiad not felt warranted, under sthe circunlistances, in re. commkending thie pris,oner to the niercy, of the Crown, nor should he do so, even after wliat lied jatst passed uipon the subject. Mlr. HIUME said, that the petitioner did nor ask forthemercyof the Cro,wn; he only comsplained of an ujutsenteiice, Passed upon hint cinder the operation of alt irritated 'feelingr. He (Mr. Ilutne) in.- deed thiought is a sentence almocst uinequalled in point of severity. The man had beeui convicted ot selling a blasphemous libel-that was, something which the magistrates wh%o tried him chose to think a blasphentous libel ; for what a blasphemous libel was he (Mr. H ume) would be glad to find any body that could tell ; and it appear. edi that he had sold the book in the course of his usual trade, beiiig almosit as ignorant of the title as of the contents; anid yet, for this act, he was to suffer an isn prisonnient of five years. The retitioner stated in his petition, that he had been treated in ithe execution of his sentence wiithi great cruelty,; that during slite first week of his colitfinenient, he had been kept its a coiidemnneeI cell, andl fed upon bread and water ; that afterwards he liad been cam. pelled to wear a felon's dress, and placed in the felons' ward t and that pen, ink, and paper, as wrell as all conmmuni- cation with his family, had been deitied to himp. Comne our when he m-ight, he would co'me out a persecuted individual: is was sit act of great injustice, site merely having permitted him to be tried be. fore a magistrate wvho hiad e-hibitrel such feelings as belonged to Alr. Trafford ; ard he (ilr. Hume) regretted much, that the right honourable Secretary refused to take his case into consideration. 31r. SiYKES thought site sentence severe; and hoped that the taking of' sureties for goodl behaviour would be dispensed with at the end of it. 'Mr. PEEL maide sonie reply, which didt not reach the gallery. dilr. J. WILLIAMS said, 'that althouigh the petitioner hadl not cotidescended to ask for liberation, yet it would only have been a' graceftd' act in the Goveriiment to have grantedt it. Mlr. PEEL sad, that he proceeded not at all tipon time petitioner's omnission to ask liberatioti, but upon Ilisa own view of what seemned to himt totbe thle justice of this case.-The ptetition was theti ordlered to lie ott she table. BLER LAWIS. Lord STAsNrLgY prestented two petitions fromn lancashire; Mr. CARTER a petition front 'Portsea, Sir H. Wc. Wiis .soN a petition froni St. Alban's ; Sir M. W. RID LEY a petition froint Newcastle. upon-Tyne ; and M1r. LAWvLEY a petitioni front Birminigham, against.thmebeer laws. iNEGRO SLAVERY. Sir R. SHiAw presexiteci a petition on) thiis subject front Newcastle- upois.'Tyne; Captain BRuc.E a petition frotis Allos ; Mlr. CLa. NV E.' a petition (WE! uniderstood) frttm Gosport. HIDES AND SKUNS. Lord 1LFENN~ox IrTe-ented a petitioti fromi the bitchlers of Chi. chiester, itt favour of the hides andI skins bill ; Mr. CsnRWE? a pa. tition fromn thie tannets of Cockermoutlt, against the bill ; AM'. B. 'tVt.nasiAMa petition froits the butchers of Dover, in favour of the bill. Mr. LESLIE FORhTEPRpresentcd a petitlion from certain at. tornies in Irelanid, conmplaining of the aniual licence duty. Also a petition froia the county of Louths, against site provisions of the act for griniding foreign corni. Colonel B3AGIWELL presented a petition fronti the landowners of Cloneeni, in the county of Tipperary, against the bill for grinding foreign corit. Coloniel O'NEIIL presented a petition from Antrimn, against. the re,peAl ol'site line-butis .Mr. S. RICE presented a petitioll fiom tlle town of Temple Mi- chael, in the county o' Tipperary, complaining of certain provisions in the lrish tithe act of last session. The hoii. member beg ed to observe, thaLt the niodificationis already ualde in that act, wit some trifling fbrtlier alterations whicili e hoped for, wvould fully iiteet the views of the petitioners. MXr. JONES presented a petition from the totvt of Carnmartlien, against thle window-tax. Ml r. RICE a similar petition from the countv. OUTRAGESI N IRELAND. 1 .,J.Sl\lITH plresented a petition front an intldvidual of tle name of' M'Cuslie, under circumstances which, as it seemed to him, called peculiarly for consideration. The petidoner, whio was a resi. detit in the county of Ferinanagh, stated that, on a givein dav, his cabin was surrounded by forty or fiftv armed persons, who burst into his cottage, stabbed him, and broke his arm, and further bru- tally nialtreated his family, and two brothers who came ro his assistance. For this offence several men were taken up; but al_ though the case was one of felony, two magistrates admitted them to bail: afterwards they were tried at the Enniskillen assizes, and ac- quitted. Now the admitting these mcn to hail, the honourablc member (;lr. Smith) apprehended, was quite contrary to law- anti a pcroceeding had followed which might be law in Irelaid, huit whlich was neither justice uor comman sense in any country in thie world. Only a few days after the trial, the personis who had been arqciittecl came witl a writ of distringas for certain costs to whicil they said they were entitled; anid under diat writ, seized and sold the cow of thenian who had pro.ectited thieit. It so happened, however, that this same unfortunate individual, subsequently to the failure of his indictment at Efiniskillen, had Ihin'self been indicted for a ri6t at Tvrone, agd found guilty; *ifid tie prayer of his petition was one wluCls the house, perhaps, might have a difficulty in gtanting: he prayed i or inqaihy int6 the coniduct- of tlse magistrates who h"a-4 miitted thdrnsn who had asaultedsim to bail; and also fortbepro: duction of the judge's xotes on the trial of those persdns, ana on his own trial - but whatever might be the decision as wothe prayer'of his petition, tlerccouldlexistbut oneopinion asto thehorriblenDatureofhis ease. He(MrSmith)hadevery ressoniftominquiry,to believe thatthe statements of tile petition were strictay true. The petitioner declared his belief, that this attack upon hins had not proeeeded fromn any pri. vate motives ; hi had not taken lantd over the head of any other mnan; but he believed that the resentment against him was the efflct of a political and religious feeling. V'With a view to avoid interrupting the motion whichl his noble friend (Lord Althorpfl was about to bring on, he (Mr. Snmith) would not detain the hiouse with any comments upon the general state of Ire'land ; but lIke thought that thie case of the petitioner was one of' a most afflicting chiaracter, and hoped it would appear that every effort bail been taker. by the Government to discover and puiniah the offenders. An hon. M nraws ui inder the gallery, 'whose nannie we could niot leavn.defended the character of the Ferm-anaxh jurha. in general. He farthier made somne observations upon the conduct of Protes tants and Orangemen, whom (as we took the hon. gentlemian) he considered to be one. Lord MlI LTON, consideringz hihnself hialf an Irishman wasi sorry to hear the lion. memnber mixing up the Protestant& of Ireland' gene rally with the members of a society whichi the Government declaed ought not to exist. He strongly objected to those associations which under diffbcrent pretences- of loyalty, tended to spread seditiont an discontent over the whole of Ir'eland ; and he could by no mieans agre wit th galant embr, wo wuld hanve it supposed that the gret bdy f te Potetan poulaionof that oountry were att-ached to Oang asocition, wichwer a ane to the observance of' the law, isted o beng,asi wa prfesed,the means of their preser-. Air. CANN'ING by no mreans understood his p1llant frienid to say thatthe Protestants generally were members of Omange lodges, but that the terms Protestant andL Orangeman were in a very great deV synnvmousin that country. r. OULBIURN said that he had always understood that the termsOranenia and rotetantapprached nearly to thie samie meanig whn usd ina geeralway,accordling to the sense of the ~eo~il ol thf cuftry li cold aynothiing of the conduct of the tri, nr o an oftheproeedngs beond thie directions which hie gaveon he ve o levin Dubin o te Crowvn Solicitor, to begin Mr. PLN UTT detailed -lhe larticulars of the prosecution, in the course of which the defendants,first of all before the masgistrates, put in a defence which was rather an atggravation, by saying that they attacked the house out of' revenge for a sisillar vio- lec hch theyha4 before suffered from the prosecutor: notwith- standing which, having in court proved alibiAS, the jury acquit- ted thiem. As to the process instituted to recover the costa9, hie rather suspected that the hon. mesnber miust be misinformed upon that point, because it was contrary to every vestige of law. It tin- fortunately happened, with respect to the magistrate, that he sat in that character from his; official qualifications, and was, therefore, not removable by the LIord Chancellor. Hle cotild only he removed by laying an intormation in the Court of King's Bench, and by thne cer- tificate of the judges after the jproceedings, thxat he was unfit for the situation-.after which he migbt be remioved. Upon Ithe whole, lie did not see enouigh to induce that interference of the house which was prayed for in the petition. Air. J. SMNIITH shortly, repliedl to the observations which had been thrown out. It appeared to him- that the necessity for look. ing inito the case was be.st maude out by the. explanation of the Atvoney.Geeral whse eal nd ervces in endeavoiuringto re- stor th auhorty f te lws ie as quite ready, to admit. The rght on. gnt. old tena hat he defendants .iusitified the commttin of he otrag, an yetwereacquitted uipon tdlibi.r. This; was ot hatadmnistatin o th las which was catculated to tranquilflize Ireland. There was one magistrate in Tyrone whio bad- adimitted a defendaiutto buail, thiough the charge was a capital felony. lie was cotivinced that if the real situiation of Ireland were fully known in that house, the co3ntry would have all its gaievanices righi. ed before the present seaskiti coniid expire. Mlr. DOGIIERTrY expressed thie reluctance whicrh lie felt toaud- dressing the house, and declared that ito inducemeniit could hiave drawli these observations from him, the first which he had ever lhad thie honour to address to thte hiouse, were it not for the reflections which had been castt upon the adininistration of justice in Ireland. H-ad the lion, member who presented this petition confined himself to facts, he would not have oiffered a single re- miark, Ilie had now nothing whatever to say tupon thec merits of the petition, nor thte vinidication of the Attorney-General of'the right hoin. Secretary for Ireland but the thing which struck him with deep s arpisead regret was,that havhin lately arrired fromp that country, whr e had seen the laws adininuttered by great inen with an inte- grityv and ability which equalled any thing boastedI of in this couti- try, the honourable member hadl stigmtatized it as a system of juris- pruenc whch oul ony b toeraedin Spain or 'f'urkey. This did, ndeed prooke hmaganst iszinclination to speuk. It wA languge nt tobe tleraed twardIreand,wliere thle courts wweare kin~~ andinviingl ope to ll wo soght edress. In alnticipating the urswhih hemigt ths initeupontheadmiinistrationi of jus. tir, ie dd ot ffe hi nme nd utority with the intention of giving the facts to wliceh he spoke aniy other weight thant that of it tinan long conversant with thec snibject, who had recently arrivedi froits that conuitry. And he didi say, that it would exceedingly gratify thie house, it'th`e greatest lover of justice in it could see hiow imipartially- open rthe courts were to thie claimants. He hiad been acquslinted pro. fessionally w-ith the administration of juistice in five countiesformore than 17 years past, atid he could not chairge hi, recollection withi a sin- gle case hi wiichi partiality hadt been shown to eithser party on ac- cotint of religious feeling For his owvn part, lie could niot t reat this afaidr as a poitcin be hd always avoided political dliscu.ssions as mattrs hull unit fo im,. lie had been constantly sliroudedi and secured from them by his own sensibilities. All thie consi- deration which he now asked of the hiouse was, tlhat they iveuldi nor refuse credit to the assrtions whichi lie had advancedl inl vindication of the administratioDn Of justice in Ireland. Mr. Al. FITZGERALD) hoped that the hioLse wouldi long anti very often enjoy the pleasure of hearitig his hon. and learned friend: but he trustetd that thc houase w.ould call for rite judge's notes Of a trial so singularly conducted, unless tue request were eisitirely con- trary to the fbrmns of proceeding. It' there were no formatl objectioti' to their production, he trusted that his MVajesty-'s ministers would not refuse them. Hlia honourmble and learned friend had shiown, liowever, that he was quite new among, them, or he never couild have selected hiis honourable frienid the memnber for MVidlturst for a charge of using intemiperate or imimoderate lanl- guage ; for if there was a mnember of that house conispicuous for his inederation when speaking of Ireland, though lie had shown for it the warmest regard which a niative of the coutitry c-ould mtanifest in l'anguage and behaviour characterized ratlher more by the cool tense and moderation of his own countrv it was his lion. frienti. Great and ureful, kind and hunanie, were a1 the acts and speeches of his hon. friend towards, that unhappy country ; and it would he well if hiis bold anti benign exaiiiple were adequately followed, Hi, honourable frietidi had said notliing respecting the conduct of ithe j jdgcr,,-he had purposely and expressily avoidetl-he h.A refrained even. fromn any remnark! on the jury, because, as lie said, he respcect- ed the instiiution, But did rthe litonour-Able and learned gen- tleniani mean to intimate to the houise that there was no egach thing known in Ireland as the occasional perversion or usice throughi religious partialities ? WVere the mai strates :ts f~ree front them as he had, desribedl the judges to'bee? an~, what need was there for that late sweeping away of whiole droves of Orange mag8trates, whiich reflected so much hioror on the Lord Chancel- lor Whiat need of the constabulary act, and those other regulationts whiceh had been introduced to correct the errors likely to arise from the depraved authority of the magisterial bench ? If there was any thing known of Irelaind, it was this-that the eff'ects of religious partiality operated so mnischievously ott the administration of the laws, as to make the trial by jury, w~hich was the greatest blessing of this country, the absolute curse of Ireland. M4uch as he admniredt that inttuin he would prerer trusting his life! and property to th arbitrary control of the judges, than trust getnerally to the result of a trial by jury tainited by religieuss partiality:. Mlr. DOGHE55TY and Myr. J. SMITH miutually explained. Mr. PEEL advised postponemenit, for the purpose of mak'ing in. quitries. lie could not approve of' asking for the judges notes; buti there was no objection to a reference generally to the judge for his opinioni of' the trial. COUNTY CAVAN ELECTION. 51r. ABERCROMBY presented a petition from! the electors, complaining, of the Sheriff'and his officers in the course of the late election. 'he petition stated the display of Orange banners and placards, filled with " the glorious niemory or King William," " Protestant ateenaaficy," atnd other inflammiatory lurmnises; andu comiplained that the Court-house, and all the avenues, were tilled with clamorotus Orangemen, who made so miuch noise, thant the niame of Alr. Coote, the second candidate, could not be heard when it was proposed, and a murder was committed in the evening. Time Petition pirayed to have the Sherifl called before the house ; or, in tite alenaie, that the house would take suich other mieasures for thi eurity as would best secutre to thiem the advantag;es of the British consititutioni. Wiith respect to the miurder, he wisihed to put a few questions, to whicli the Attorney-General mnight furnish the answers. In the trial which took place at Cayan in consequence of the murder before-mentioned, lie wished to knoew-dst, of how many, the jury panel was composed ; 2d, if there were more Catholics or Protstats n i; 3, hw mny erechallebged by, the Crown, and ow anyby he risoer;4th ifthejury was at length mnade up ot o theoriina'~,ae1~ Theansersto thiose questions wvould in ll robbilty uid th hose n teircondtuct in suppressing thes fatios, hichwernowniee tan ever exasperated against Mr. MlA XWELL,, tIse meitiber for thie county of Cavan, th oughit thlat ithe petitioners had behaved unf-airly to the sheriff;because he had, bY letter addressed to tlhem. discrwiird the exhiibition of Orange flag~s anid inseriptions, and expressed his disapprobatioti of themi upon tim- lhustissgs.lvorhis own parthleregretted the niurder which liad been coin- muited, but it. was not easy to fix the guilt of it upoii tlisoa who had been accused. He was no Oranges-nar-he was a Prot6stant,and in justice to t le Omungemen, he was bound to say, that in loyalty, anti a-ttachment to the constitution they yielded to none. He objected to classing Orangemen and Ribandmen. Orangeismswas instituted for the defence of the King,constitution,and the laws,and the Protestaint sucession to the throne, and to aid and assist those who were iii danger of violence anct oppression for holding those opinions. Ri- bandmen were leagued together to brinig about the separation of England and Ireland; anid, secondly, to massitcre the Protestaats. 'l;hte further consideratioil of the petition vras postponsed accoid- nr. i}UAIE presented a petition from the synod of Angus and illearns, respectng the state of religious establishmenits in the XVest Indies. MIr. F. BUXTON moved that the report of a coinntittee ap- pointed to inquire into the effect of an act of the thlt of George I., regulatinr insurance companies, should be reprinted, and announce(i his intention of submitting a rnotion to the house on the subject. Mlr. GRENFELI, said that several insurance companies had been established under the provisions of the act referred to. Among others, the Royal Exchange Insurance Comispany had paid 300,0001. for their charter. If in the thotion which the lion. gentleman pro- posed to makle it was intended to affect the privileges of that com- pany, he hoped the house would resist so unjust an attempt; and for his own part, he shoulil on al occasions teel it his duty to oppose sucl a measure, unless good grounds were laid, upon which the charter of the Company could be fairly taken froni then), or unless they should be repaidrthe money which hadi been received from them.-The report was ordered to be re-pritited. STATE OF IRELAND. Lord ALTHORP, in rising to call the attention of ithe house to this subject, of' which lie had given notice, begged to assure the house that nio man could be niore sensible than he was of the diffi- culdtes wlhiclh it involved. He bespoke their indulgence, not merely because lie should find it necessary to trespass upon thicir time at some length, bLit because he felt that his powers were inadequate to cope with all the difficulties which presented themselves to hbnp. Forcibly as he was impressed with this latter consideha: tion, he was nevertheless encourage(d to pursue his intention, because he believed that, even if hesliould fail to persuade the house toagree with the measure he shonia haive the honour to propose, he was s-ure that the mecre discussion of the question would produce sot mutch good as would amply reward him for any exertion he might manke, and console him for a disappoirt.cient if he sliould be fated to nenounter one. The difficulties of Ireland seemed to himnCo arise from a long course of unfortunate events. From the commence- ment of our cennexion wvith Ireland, it was not too muich to say, that it had been treated in every way as a conquered country. The evils whoich were nesessarilv attendant upon sch a statofhig had for the last two centuiri'es of that co'mexion be grvtdb diffe~rence of religious opinions between,; what mgth ald h conquerors and the conqueredl. This hadpoue dits, party spirit, and hatred to the laws, to adge which. a perhiaps 'hairdly ever exist6d elsewhiere. Tese were evils to whicih, undger any circumnstances, it would be difficult to apply a remedy. Ift miust in all events be doiie with great care and cauition, because it would be absuird to suppose that evils wyhich had been of the-growth of centuries could be removed by aniy sudden or violent measures. Up to the period of tile Union, that difference in religious opinion of wvhich he had spokeni prevailing it mLnight have been questionable whether or not the rnajtrity of the pop'ulation of f reland should be admiitted to the whole of the privileges of the state. But with the Union a great change took place, for then the majority of Catholics in Ireland becamie the minority of the united empire; and the concessions which thiey, claimed, however imnpru. dent, it might have been to make themi before, could, after that pe- riod, bring with themi no dangerous consequences. That the Union was a wise and politic mieasure, he had no doubt; but, like all other humnan devices, it had its evils as well as its ad- vnaes. The evils whiich accomnpanied it were certain and obvious ; it datages were contingent upon a wise administraton. The first evil which -ensuedwath necessary increase of the nuimber of absentees, and the consequent subtraction of thie capital of the country. The advantages whtichi ought to have followed se Union should have been an administradion divested of all partialities and part), spirit ; thte main object of which shiould have been the putting down of existing factions, and a careful attentior, to discourage thlem in future, by withholding power and enmolument fromi such peronsA as were disposed to revive thiem. Besides the8e,thte people of Irelrannd should have been admiittedl to an equal enjoyment of political rights. If these advantages, which miighit have been reasonably look-ed f'or, hadl actually followed thie Unioni, it could not be doubted that the capital whiceh had been temiporarily with- drawnt in consequenice of. that measure wouild have so6n after. wards retuirned, and that long (!re this it would have been largely in- 'creased. Hav,ing thus shortly statedhis own opiniona-s to the causes of the evils wlhieh prevailed, the greatest of which wyas, perliaps, the violent party spirit wvhich was kept up, lie came to the consideration of tiie means by which the* were to be redressed. Great as the dif- ficulties were whichistood in the way of so desirablean operation,they would be removed with comparative ease if any legislative remiedy could he applied to themi ; and it was because tliis was altogeth-er impracticable as to the larger portion of them, that their weighlt and miagnitude were seriously increased. Ile was induced to thidk that the best, if not thte only niode in whichi these diffleulties; could be mect, was by the appointment of a general cenmmittee to inquire into the actual state of Irelatid. If he - should pro- pose a committee or commitetees, to examiine only into particular points, they mnust be such points only, to which a legislative enact. ment might be applied; but whe he ppsda general inquiry, the comnmittee to whom that inquiry shioul beitustedt might ex amine many copies upon wvhich it would be intpossible to leIslate. Such aomte, by shiowing the origin of'the evil,adb xoigta contemptof ablic opinion, thaut carelessness of what was thought elsewhere wichi prevailed too much in Ireland, would have the effect of explainiing the true irnterests of the counitry, and of shamning thle persons most interested in themi into that conciliatory course, and that attention to the interests of' their countrymen, thiat were necessary to ensure their tranquiillity and their prosperity. The fash- ionable siiede of mneeting propositionis of this sort was, he knewv, to off'er to appoint a commission for the purpose of taking evidence on the spot ; but this would be far less satisfactory than the couirse he proptosed, because such a coniimismion couild only, report upon such subjects as miighit be remiedied by law, and, which was still more imnportanit, their repoit would not have the weight ofthtlat of a com. jinitwce. Hfis experience of the committees of that hiouse had con- vinced himi that, however a subject mighit be intricate or delicate, there wvere no obsitacles which couldt not be overcome by suchi a com- miittee, comiposed or' gen tlemeni wlio were reselved -to inquire into and remedy the evils. The house itself was already in possesion of as much evidence as ivould enablte a commiiittee to niake a report, and if miore were necessary it would be easily procured. It mi~ht be as weell for hiim here to anticipate some of ttime ohjertions which wouild probably be urged against the proposal he had to mzke. Among thetai, however, this wouldi not be said-that the improve. ment in the affairs oflIrelandliad beensuch, that no inquiry wasnacres. sar,, and the house and the country ought to be content wihthings as they wvere. Thie righit hionouruble gentleman oposte(M. Gioulburn) had given ziotice of a motion for a commnittee to inqutire into the state of those counties in which the insurrection act had been in operation,with aL view, of coarse, to the renewal of ltiat act. It would thierefore be sufficient upon this pit to say, that the mere niecessity of the insurrection act proved that" ttie country could tiot be ini a tranquil, or even in such a stare as rendered an inquiry inexpedienit. The itisurrectiozi act might be extended over the wvhole of Irelanid: it wa^s therefore highly neces- sary for the house to know what hiad been the efthct produced by its operation hitherto. It ntiglgt, perhaps, be objectedi that the length of' timne whichi such a conititittee as he proposed must necessarily oc- cupy, wvas a reason whiy it should not be appointed. Hle coufd not disguise from himself, and he would nut attempt to disguise fromn the house, that such an inquiry nmust occuipy more time than the session wotild afford ; but this, he thought, was no reason why that inquiry shouldi not be commenced, although it was a reason why liis miotion for it was a-' well-timed nowv as though he had made it earlier in die session. The cominitree on foreign trade, of which he list ihimself the honour to lie a metaber, hakd alreadv sat more titan onie session, anid lite trustedi that no nma wvould say, ihe condi- rioti of Irelaind was a less important subject than the foreign traide oi thec country, powerf'ul as the interest wlmiih the latter fairly excited. The time iherefore ouight, lie tlhouiglt, to be no objection to the ap. pointnient of thie committee, for he should be sorry to have it said timat otne and twenity gentlemeti of' the house coriid not be found who were, on such ani occasi,n, willing to devote as much timie as might be necessary to this subject. lie wished the comnmittee to possess powers as extensive as pos- sible, because by a full inquiry alone could they hope to do any real good. Aniong the tirst topics whichi would h,e stebmitted to their consideration, was one whiclh he was awrare could not he too cautiously interfered with-he mneant the connexioni between landlord and tenant. And yet he was sure that utileas the abuses to which it wvas exposed in Ireland should be fairly examined and exposed, they could never be adequately remedied. It appeared that only a run- ning acon between the landlord and his tenants was .in niany in- sacskept there: ttie peasanm did not pay his rent in nioney, but in labour ; and rthe consequence of this was, that he was (2imong other disadvaritages) deprived of the mieans of procuring wchat was neces. sary for the employment of the females of his family, who might be usefully occupied in spinning, and in othier similar labours. If the peasant were paid regularly by the week, the money he had earned, as was the customi in this Country, he would at once be enabled to pay- his landlord's rent, and to procure for his family those advantages the results of which were found to be so betteficial amonig a similar class of' people in England. The abuses which ensued fromi the practices of mid- dlemen, as wvell as other circuniistanes applying to ithe condition of the landlord and tenant,were so notorious, that it was only necessary, to allude to them to show how diesirable it wws that they should be discontinued; aiid this he believed might be effected by the report of tho committee. The next topic in poisit of imtportance seemed to him to be the employment of' capital and of the people. No person who had listened to the able and correct speech of lila honourable friend the member for Northampton (Mr. WV. Maberly) could remain un. convinced thiat two of the greates.t evils of Ireland were the want oSi caiam ndtewnt of emp loynient. The difficulty of the employ- met aithal had indeed been considerably exaggerated by, that jcalousy wtcthe people felt of the interference of' strangers, and which was the too natutral result of the condition in which they were placed. Tue jealousfe, however, was chiefly directed against per- sons who had cmployctl their capital in agricultural improvements. In towns where there could be no danger of outrage, there could be iso doubt that capital would be as safely as it would be advan- tageously euisployed ; -and it was this fact he was anxious to have proved to the comimittee, that by their report the capitalists of Eng. lanid might be satisfactorily shown how- they might employ their capital. He had on a foriiier occasion stated hisi opinion that the relpeal of the taxes in Ireland would tend mainly towards reviving the manufactures of thtat country, atid bringing it into a prosperous condition. It was objected to himi oni tiat occasion, that he soughut, by giving laige and exclutsive advantages to Ireland, to raise her up into a, ianulacturitig country, whieh shiould rival Scotlantl and Eng- land. WVhile he disclaimied any. such intention,he feaedthatlIreland was far indeed from any such state of prosperity,; she wasas little i. be feared as shie was to be envied ; and however he might wish to see lier conidition amieliorated, he had not ptoposed to accomplish that wish by affordinig her a rate of profits above those of any other couintry. Ilie would only say, that this consideration was of tbe greaestimprtace nd is astearestwish was to produce, it posibl, tanqillty nd roseriy werenow disturbanc-e and dis- tres prvaied,andto ay fondaionfor a large revenue and those resurcs wichthecliat atd frtiityof hecountry inight rea- sonably be expected to produce, and whc Iwud amply repay, any present sacrifice. But to lay this consdrto for a miomient aside, let the house thiink of the enormous expense at wvhich the disastrous condition of Ireland was continued, by iiteans of's standing army, and by all the mnacbiurry of insurrectioni acts, which were necewsary only in consequeneceof distress. Objectionable as this system wasfor its ex- pense, it was no less so for itself'-it mnust be altogether hatef'ul to Englishmen, andI ouglit not to be tolerated withici thes linmits of a free coinstituitioni. There weas a conLaiyination in all time operations of ar- bitrary power, and it cotuld not be endured in one part of the stare, withiout Cthe whiole suffering nuditer its pernicious influence. This part of the question demanded imnperiously, the consideration of a comimittee. The next point ins inportanice appeared to hihn to be the systemn ofgrand jury presetitments, its whichi he had always un- derstood very extensive jobbing to prevail. It appeared too clearly that the individlual interests of sthe gentiry were' opposedl to those of the country; aid when it was known that local taxes to the anctital amount of 7,0-,0001. were raised'at secret ioeetings of this descrip- tion, lie was sure that the ,act was enmough to prove tite expediency of giving publicity to the mode in which these taxes were imposed. IVv'ether they should be under the game regulations as wereadopt- ed with respect to tlle Iiighways in England, or to Ehe roads in Scot- land, was aqemestion lie did not take upon himself'to decide; butthat the present system deniamded inquiry, he was fully convinced. With respect to the clurch establislimenit, he did not apprehend it woutld be denied that this was a subject which ought to be inquiretd into. He wouli iiot be understood to proposc or to say any thing which could be injurious to the Established Church, but, on the cots- trary. he wished to see its dignity and its utilitv preserved, at the same time that it should be directed to those purposes for whlsich it wias established. The prosperity of thc church must always depend upon the number of persons who were attached to it. Ie could not believe that the object in granting to the clturch of Ireland the extensive property which it possessed was to make a rich and powerful clergy, but to promote religion gene. rally, and particularly the religion of the state, by increasing the means by which its ministers might become use'til. lie did not wish to turn them from this purpose, than which he could conceive none greater or better. He should be reluctant to do any thiig which might even seem to be opposed to chat purpose ;* but it it should ap- pear to the coumnittee that by a different distribution, or even by a diminution of the revenues of the church, the people might be less alienated than they now were, he did not think that in recommend- ing such a measure he should be proposing anv thing inconsistent with the prosperity ofthe church of lreland. The evils of the tithe system were such as claimned a deep and full consideration. lie believed, that by the aeltrations which had been lately made, the system was very much improved; but he believed no- body would deny that it was capable of stillgreaterimprove- ment. The right honourable gentleman (Alr. (ioulburn) by whomii it had been introluced, could not expect-no miais couik be-sanguine -enough to- expect.-that -it -would be, UimVI'!.. ly acted *rs. Intbose-patishes; tben, where it gbenoh Ub yae b6een. adopted, its'urely becaMe niore-than-e isrn y'- eb' inus.~ i the niode tin whlch tithes-weie collected.- Even * ini. this eointjry ther mitde of levyng tit.hegmas not free-from objeWwtiot; Wh6 _ m~r sqemust it then be in rieland? T 'he pEople being, as, 'thy-wr there, for thc most paLrt of ia different religion to the cIegl nt whom they were to pay tithes, being besides extremely po nrs omntat they were altoxether unable to underseandthtehi cldistinctions which the law required in the forms o f te eesr procedigs, equredthat every thing should be.made uhmr simle i odertoavilthemselves of thoepoiinswihja beenmad ineheifavur.Such an alteratinihprasbr h effectoftenforcing a more poneUiatnory-methodo olcixtette In Englahd if any objections4 arose as to the paYment ofttis o thing could be inore easy than for the tentant to pay themiiid in Ireland, nothing could be more difficult. The noticshihi was necessary to) give of their intention to do this, frequenrjy co,~ raned flaws wvhich might be taken advantage of against tnemn. The parties, igznorant themselves, were compelled to employ 0erson who wer screly les so, and thus such inaccuraicis were o frequeat or.. curence.r V. E'ngland, if the clergyman neglected to draw thetitbe which the occupier of the land had severed for him, he suffered.the consequences of his own neglect; and if the land of the.occupier -was at all damaged by the continuance of the tithe upon it, a right of an. tion is againist the person entitled to it. In Ireland, owing to the difficulties hehad stgted, and the decisionsof tehcour?of law, thecon.. sequences uf the neglect always fell, upon the occapierofthe land, -who was, in case of any damnagelijapdenng~to the severedtithe,compelle t. pay in nioneyinstead of in kInd. Hie(Lord Althorp.)was -pirfectly. confident that in stating thi%, he was stating what was the ormictir case in many instances. It was impossible not to perceive that suchL a state. of thtings mus;t be directly opposed to that good fe6eling which ought to subsujt between the receivera and payers of tithes On the contrary, it wras unhappily too well known that it had p-oduced bloodshed, disturbance, and misery, and for this reason. alone it Was necessary thAt the cause should be inquired into, whetlier the evil could be remedied or not, if it were only for the pttrpoas of carrying into efrect compositions which it was obvious could- nati be. inade while such feelings of irritation existed. Another of the Ovila of Ireland were the Orange and Riband Lodges: it was difficult't- say which of these was the worse, as regardedl the trmnquiliu,j or' Ireland ; but both ought to be puit down. (Hear, har. ea one was, the other would always I.e and the ineialcos. quence must be, a ;continuance of that conf'usion and misery- ofWhich they had so long been the fruitful occasions. An attempt had been made last year to put them down - but in a free country such an attempt could nev-er be very auccess2ui, and it had not suc- ceeded at all. Let the house, liowever, snuppose that a committee h::d made this a subject of inquiry, and had reported their opinioni to the house, that all persons holeling offices during pleasure ihud be removed from their offices unless they renounced their connexion, withsuchimiachievous societiesa.sweretheselodges; didtehebouso not think tha6t this recommendation would put an end to the evil, and do miore good than all the acts of Parliament that had been, or that could be passted? (Hear, hear.) Every man who brought arnotion, before the house was ot' course vevy sanguine as to its succems he' dlid not pretend to be less sangune than others, but he cotd' not, help thinking &Ilso that he hald stated reasons, however in- adlequately, which should induce thie house to grant the committee for which he was about to move. The situation of thepeople of Ire.. land at this moment might be said to be, that they were-under the domnio ofan ligrch, te iterstsof which were in too miany respcts pposd t ther ow, itwasan object of this oligarchy to exeide~ majrit, te meber ofwhom were often thirwx mea ofthetennt owads is andordwhich in this country were- so common as to form part of the national character, c-ould prevafl in. Ireland anid it was eqttaLy imnpoisible that where such an invidious distinction prevailed tnere should be -onifidence or good fellowship between the landlor and his tenant. He deplored this miisunder.. standing, and no less did he regret that which miust subsist betweenL the church establislhment and the Catholic laity, wrho felt that it was by religious disabilities that they were exclutded from all offices in thei state. lie should be told they were not excluded froni all offices, but he knew that though they were not so in law, they were in practice. (Hear, hear.) It -was impossible for a govern- ment to begin thze work of degr-ading anyj particular description of people, and to say so far shall the degradation go, and no farther ; it would always be e-xtended by other hands, and he therefore wats not surprisid to find that theCatholic laity were excluded from all oflices, (Her.)Whieeh la prvidd tat heyshould be excluded from cerainofice, nd erittd hemtohol others, it proved that whie i wa nitein arnstin he xcusion, the partial admission ough tobe i~rnuloslyadheed o. t was the duty of the Govern- men toseetha inoffcesto hic Cahoics were eligible, there- shold t lastbe cetai nuberofthem admitted. (Hear.) 'rho right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Cann)wsa uch con- vinced as he could be oftedifclies whihlyi h way of re- medying the evil, which he had stated; and ftergthn gentle- man were as sincer-ely desirous of affordin thtrmd,h ad nio doubt that it was within his power to do s.H i o hesitate to say that the right hon. gentleman's tolitical conduct hithierto had not inspired him (Lord Althorp) With the greateat confidence ; but now that the right honiourable gentleman was in the highest situation that hie could hold,-for no situation, could be found in &~rope, or even in the world, which could be said to be a promotion to him,-bc called upon himi to exert the powers of his distinguilshed station to this miost noble end. (He-ar. hear.) TIhat station was. only desirable and only honoisrable because it afforded him the miost eminent opportunitiesi of doing good. He could not be influenced by the mere distinction, nor by the emolu- ments which accompanied the office he held, but if the desire of' handing eown hisi name to posterity as one of the greatest benefac- tort to h4is country had any weight with hint, he (Lord Althorp) now called upon himn, by all his hopes of future fame, to do that which he mugt be coDnvince-d was best calculated to secure the wel- fare of Ireland. (Hear.) He possessed at this momenit the kower of doing good in a grfeater degree than had perhaps ever fidlen to the ishare of any man, and he had not only the po wer, but the knowledge which was necessary to direct it wisiely. (Loud cheers.) He (Lord Althorp) -called upon himi to pursue that manly and consistent course whjch was equally required of him by, Isis own repu 'tion and by the interests of Irelandl, and to carry, the question which he (Lord Althorp) should now uropose. r'n doing so, he was -sure the right hon. gent. would have the support of every liberal-minded man in the hoube, and the approbation of every suchmanthroghorthempie. (oudand continued cheering.) His lorshi begedparon or avig ocuped so much of the time of the ouse an conlude bymovig "hat a srlect committee be appintd t inuir Ito he tat of~Eeland, and to report their oit- Sir H PARNELL as axiousto aail himself of this opportu- nity of testifyinig to the noble lord his gratitude for the excellent s%peeck which heliad just madle, aswell-as for the aniformnattentiorn he had paid to all subjects ini which the interests of Ireland were concemned. The hon. member then adverted to the evils under which rreland laboured, and concluded his speech by seconding the motion. Mlr. (iOEJLBURN said, that in the obser-ations whichi he should feel it his duty to submit on the subject which had been brousibt under the notice of the house, lie wouldt endeavour to cenfine himnseli as strictly as possible to those questions which ought properly to he taken into cousidetation on the present occasion. Hewoultd avoid entering into the wide field of inquiry which had been opened by the noble lord opposite. If the house cid him the honour to recollect Lhe part which he had taken when questions of a similar nature hiad been discussed, they would have little douibt as to the course which he would pursue with respect to the present motion. He could not consistentty withL his sens ofd dty acedeto the motion of the noble lord. But when he stated that, hebegged leave also to say, tad lie referred to his former conduice lin support of the assertion, that he felt no disposition to limit any inquiry into the state of Irela.nd, except so far as alppeared iiecessairy in order that any such inquiry mlight hee attended with an advantage.. out; rosult. The noble lord called for the appointment of a committee to tak-e into co-nsideration the general state of 'Ire- lamed, bo th with respect to its past history and its present situation. The noble lord's argument was that because a committee of that house might be able to accomplish this arduous task, it ouight thierefore to undertake it. .ie (Mir. Goulbutrn) was of opinion, that "if acommittee should be appointed to take into consideration all the tois= owhich the noble lord had adverted, little hope could be en- trandthat their labours would produce any useibulre8ult. WVhat were the subjects which the noble lord wished to be suibmitted to the consideration of a select committee? The rela6ons between landlord ni.dteant,-hestaeofthreen e,-hwliole history-of grand jury I prsenmene,-techuch stabishent,rhetithe rystem,boslh past andpraer,.-.nd aoveal, hcproostin,wheumar what wa.q caled th Roan athlicquetio wa-s not the origin of alltheevis wichaffictd Ielad ;these were the subjects which the oblelordwishd topersade he ouse to refer tb a select comn- mitte. Hewoul askthe oblelordto reflect, and then to say whether he considered the last question a fit subject for the consi- dera tion of a committee of that house. If it -were, why liad the houise for ithe last 20 years been debating that question ? If ithe re- port of a select committee would settle that importanit question, why had it not been resorted to at an earlier period ? Although he was not disposed to consent to thie noble lord's motioni, it was his inten- tion to submit to the house the necessity of instituting, by itieRnms of aL selectL conuimitee, an inquiry into the most considerable branch of the subject which the noble lord had intrwduced to the notice of the houste. The house would recollect, that nut many days ago he had given notice of a motion for the appointment of a select commnit- 'tee to inquire into the niature andi extent of the disturbance which had prevailed in several districts of Ireland in which the in. surrection act had been in operation : having by accident lost the opportunntty of bringing that motion before the house at the time for which lie had fixed it, he therefore intended to move it as. an amendment to the-noble lord's motion on the piresent occasion. Whnen it was recollectr-d that the insurrection act had been is opera. whichhe poposd wouduotgiveaprety fair view ftesaeott counry.The rguent f te nole ord was, tha eas hadbee a artal istrbace n Ielad,it was expedient to insli- trie as iqury ntothegeera stteof the country. Such a course - had never been pursued on any former occasion. Iswould, however, be rementbered, that in the last session of Par- liansetit he had stated, that sbould it unhappily appear to be his duty to apply for a renewal or the ins"rrection act, as applicable to par- ticular districts, it would be necessaryfor him to move the house to preface such a measure by some careful inquiry into the state of those districts. Anid thouzh at the beginning of that session hopes were entertained by his Miajesty's Government that it might be dis- pensed with, it was soon discovered that the state of insubordination and disorder in which some partsof lrelaudwereplunged was such.that the noble lordat the lead of its government was compelled to apply forntsenaetmrent. Havingstatedthereasonsupon wbhichhe should pro- pose to proceed on the subject now before the house, in a manner opposed to that of the noble lord, he would next address himself tosome of thesubjectswhich had been touched upon by thehonour- able baronet (Sir H. Parnehl). One of the charges which that hon. baronet had adduced against the Government of Ireland was, that notwithstanding aU the representations aud complaints which had been made to it respectisg the manner in which the offices of sherifts and sub-sheriffsof that country -were filled and their func- tions discharged, nothing had been done to remedy the grievances alleged. But this was hardly doingjustice to the Government, who had, in trotl, taken every possible means to remedy by legal means the mischiefs that hlad existed owing to the state of those depart. ments. Attenspts .lso had been made to bring guilt home to certain' individuals to whom it had been strongly imnputed; and if those at- tempts, in respect of persons who were suspected of- having misused the rights and authority of office, had not been prosecuted to inqiiiry into their conduct, it *as only because it did not seem to the (io. vernment.advisable, under the present drcumstances of Ireland; to pursue matters to that extent. But it was well known that active and intelligent comniissioners were carrying on investigations inthat country, among which the state of these offices was included as a principal subject of inquiry; and very shortly indeed he should be 'Tha tdt laY upoti the t2tblethie report of their p-oeeeelings Ra. T~hetob elo.e had insinuated broadly that Romnan CathKolics were stisdlOUitY excluded from those ofnlces and appointments -to whichi lewere hylaW eligible : but ins his warmth, the noble lord surely uStated itti prophosition more strongly than he himeelfeonldhave -Irteh~ed; enid as tis was a topic upon which lie (Alr. Gouelburn) Was anxtious to ex.onerate the conduct of the Government of Ireland -frm.s all blame, the iaoose would excuse hita from being particularly attclittte to its explanation. In the first place, hie begged to repeat his former assertion, that in every appointnment to offilces in Ireland, where Catholics had been by law eligible to fill them, there had not beons either on the part of the nresent Lord-L:euteniaiti, or of those who acteel immediately, under hiim, any consideration shown for the religioo) of anv partv. (Hea-r.) It had been felt by the memnbers of' -the Government to' be their dutty in all cases to appoint thle most fiItting officer who could be employed, whoever hie miight be, anti Without regard to the nature of his religious persuasion. (Hear.) An o i wa putrt, he ki'eIT. Gousiburn) could consclensionsly af- firns, that since the period of hi,s connexion with lreland,.-gince the aPPOintmient of the Marquis Welleslev,--.he hadl been genlerally in total ignorance of the religion professed by the Governmeent officer anld in that iguipranice should probably have remained up to the pre- 5ent hour but for the inquiries t!Aat had recently been directed by Parliameent on the subject, and of which the printed results were nlow in the hands of mnembers. If the house would recuir so) the late aippointments in the police, 'they would detect nothinig like the sys- 'tenmatic exclusion whichhad bee-ncomplained Iot. By the lists upon the table., it would be seen that of the police establishment of Ire- land there were atbout 1,800 persons4 of thie protession, and 9001 of 'the Poman Catholic, employed :anti this wvould appear but a fair proportion when the. pecuiliar ciTCrcumstanCes of' the country were taken 11nto cornsideration. On every principle at justice andl exp-_di- encY the Government were bound to enlist in this important service the fittest persons,-those whio had been already tried and found trust- worthY, withoutanyspecuil),tionvupon the refigioustencta they might bhppen to profess. 'It was also to be recollected, that when this police was newly Or95niz-ee, the militia of Ireland hati been lately disem- bodied; and'it b~eame thierefore imposble for the Governiment not to listen to the claims of those who, havin-g been already most effec- tive in one br-anch of their service, now offered themselves as candi. dates for anodther. On the whole, he. though t it was obviously to be inferred, that thle Government had actedl with the StriCtet Im par- ta-lity to i's Roman Catholic subjects. and with the atteesttioni and lcb'side-ttion due to their merits. With respect,againt,t ttleciegal 'hixtens tht ad been niadie by the present Lord Leietenrant sonn&he had been in offire, no unianhe (Mr.Gorslburn) thouglht,culd 'examine themi without at once seeuing thatthe Lora Lieutenanit had Tiot been actuated by any exclusive feeling, but was quite willinig to extend to Roman Catholic talent and dce_:et a fair chance andI fair encouragemenL. During the time that the present Lord Lieu tenant bad p-resided over the governrnenstof Ire.land,offici-al situation% in that caountry, to the value of 8,7001.a year, had beeniconferred on different persons. He waq now speaking of those situations% to which Roman Ca- thol ics were eligible. Of these, appointments to the val ue of VA,)l0l. per aanDuia had been bestowed upon Romani Catholics. There was, tberefore, no ground for charging the Irish Government with en- tertainling an intention of excludIing the Roman Catholics fromi the fair participation of office. Another pert of the soble lord's ob- serrations was connected with the interests of the chiurch of Ire- landd. It seemed to be a part of' the noble lord's plans to affect the wealth of the elergy-to dliminish it only, as he had saidl, h)y a difrerent mode of distribution from that which prevailed at pre- sent. Now be (Mr. Goulburn) dlid not mean to dispute that the clergY of IreLan` was a very richly-endowed body; and perhaps, *-~n when compated with that of Enigland, Lthev were highlv paid: hIc e didbeg thiehoasqe Most seriously to considler, before they allowed iem sel ves to w ish for a direinution ofthe revenues of tlt Irish Chu-rch, 'wbether its wealth was not very greatly conducive to the gene-ral 'welfare and prosperity of the country? (- er, hear.) He thouglht there were circumstances in the s-ituation of its ministers, in the double duty, if he might tea call it, whiceh they, performedl -in the characters, of a clergy and of a resident gertrv, that Made it highlv provcr ro continue to themn their present establishmen.t as one in the' benetits of which the country at large ultimately participated. As to all that had been said about parties in Ireland. he wvould most *readily coniess that to one of themn lie would address his earnest en- treaties that they would desist t'ram procedings f'raught with inevi- table mischiefs to their country; and rto the Orange-meni he would -ay ~'Aadn P. system, the evil effects of wvhicht now produce disquiet to the kinzdom, and may, ultimately, revertuipon yGur own hds"(II ear.) Then as to otherobservat;ons which had falleni from the noble lord-(Hcre the right hon. gentleman madle a pause of -several secondr, att t'ile end of whiich hie apologized to the house for not proceedinR further with the remarks he hadl proposed to offr; for he had, in insisiting uipon some which he had already tendered, lost the thiread of his argument.) Thin-king that the course he should propose was, calculated to produce the utmost benefit tlatl TrelandI could deriv-e from this sort of' proceeding-that it weould lead to that itiquizy witiliel was necessary to foutnd any, future meastires in her behalf, and to preveait those endless differences which might otherwise aLrise, as to the mode of ascertaining that ph-itt which miust be. the first object of their anxiety,-namrcly, how far it was Possible, effectively and speedlily to restor'e peace and pros- Perity to Ireland, he shotuld move as ans amendment, to leave out all the words of the original motion, after the w-ord " into." and to isubstitute in their stead these-1" The nature and extent of the ells- turbances thtat have prevsiled in those districts of Irelandl which are ot.Jow subject to the operation of the insurrectio-n act." (H ear). 1Lord M ILTrOX and Mr. .NounT theni rose, but after sowe little 'tin-ie the latter gale way. Lord MILT ON entirelv concurred witli the right hononrable gentleman as to the necestiiy of dlevising som-e measure that miight have the effect of restoring peace anti prospierity to Irelandl: but af'ter the reasonsupon which his nioble friendi hadzfunded his motion, he (Lord Mlilton) was hardly prepared to expect that the right ison. gentleman would endeavour'by some s*rt of side-wind, to prevent thec house from entering into any general inquxiry into tie condlitioniol Irelandi, while he should recouimend them to adlopt ani investigation into the state of particular parts, and not of the whole, of that unhbappy country. From the speech that had just been delivered by that riht.hon-gent.,o,oemightbave inferred tha'tlroland had been--noI for cturies together a mDisgoverned country, having its governiment administered like that of a conqueredi nation-but that, forsoosth, it hadl its particular dcfects, about whichi it might reailly be very pro. per for Pa-rliament to niake somre inquiry. (Hlear. )It was in this view and with this notion that the right hioti. gent. seemied to have -referred to particular commissions and investigations that had been at different periods instituted into thec state and the affairsof Ireland; and to suppo-se that if thtey now added together the result of thiose several commissiolsson specific subjects, they should come to a prett3 accurate knowledge ofthe p resent state of lIreland. This;, however, hi ~-Losd Milton) apprehiended to be b)'such means aisiatterof imposiblc -attainment. He thiought it would be far more advisable to institute -atones ageneral and extensive inquiry into thie presenit sttate ot the -various relations of the different classe8of the Irish people, of landlord -and tenant, of the farmer and thielabourer, ot politicale ,sxties. and .cc forth. This wo)uld be a miuchi preferable investigation than an-, ,recurrence to those det~chcdu inquiries, by frequent allusion to whicii that evening the right h.on. gent. had appacently- endeavoured to divert the attention of the house fromi the great anld extensive object to which it should be directed. He (Lorel. Miltoni) teas aw,are that they, who knew but little about Ireland suppesed thiat ttile grievance which the Roman Cathiolics felt by reason of their exclusion from those privileges and appoinitments to whichi they still remnained le- gally ineligible was a very slight one. Butt this was a great muis. take; that exclusioni was generally atid deeply felt by them to be at stigma upon their body : and, indeed, he would4 veiiture to say. from hiis own observation of the lower classes of society in I relandl, that the meanest Catholic peasant who tenanted a cabin there, felt the exclusion of the Irish Romian Catholic peer f'rom the Briiis House of Lor4s as a stig-ma upon himself. It wasidle to contend that there were not manny offices from whichl individuals of that persuasion were still carefully excluded by the Governmnent. In proof of this, let the house remnark the tone and spirit of speeches oti itle other side of the house. Let htim refer theta to thie speech of a gallant officer, the miember for Fetnanaagh, who lhad said that Protestanti and O)rangemian were aynonymous termis; and that i't was niece-ssary, -for0Orangemen S's unite in theirown defence. (Hear.) Yet this was a Protestant lantilord, deriving his rents Most probably from Ro- man Catholic tenant-s, who would thus learn that Ylie conceived it ne. cm-;ary to join an ansociation thast might protect him from them. WVas not this mischievous state of' thiings however, and were not These. unhappy feelings, all produced by six centuries of misrule.; by ages ot'oppre&sion ? Perhap-, he might truly state, that during ftle last three hundred years, nine, tenths of the property of Ireland kad been contiscated (hear, heat) under a system of lawsi that had the. effect of making Rie..sixths of the population slaves, and of ele- vating the remainin'g sixth snto a tyrannical oligarchy. (Hear, hear.) 'Had they nor heard that very eveniing, fromu an hentourable membet (who, on thite occasion, had omnewhat departed from that discretion whiich might be suPPosee to belong to himni-had they not heard it as- serted in the speech of that gentlemnan, that it was the object of the Pibandmen to separate Ireland fromi England, and to massacre all the Prote6tants ? ( [ear.) Anid li'sa, wag it not a very proper sub. ject., indeed, for such aii inquiry as the nioble lord bad auggestedl? if sutch a-n WIMasticrton really existedl, could Ireland be satid to he well- g,overned? If it did not, was it not material to ascertain that such an ulegation was unfounded ? (Hear, liear.) But could Ireland be sai to be Idell governed, whiile it continued a country wvhere one-fifth at'the PoPulation exis,ted likenagarris,on, eurrounlded without byhostile armies four times morenumi-erous%thanthiemiselves? H-ede- nied, however, that either of the statemients in the speeches to which he had' adverted was wvell foundedi. The righit han, gent. seemed to consider the Irish clergy, ini the doaible capacity of clergy and of resident gentry. iNow whether, they were enititle'd to be so considered or not, hie did not exactly nw ra dif[feretnce of' opinion certairly existedi on that subject in the houFe, aind particu- Jarly between stome honourable Friends of his (Lord llilton's), one -of whom was; famous for the accuracy, of his calculations at least. For the reasonis already sluggested, it seemed to hitti that the pro. Posed inquiry aughit not to'be lim~ited to any particular matters or districtsi, but take the widler range the noble lard was desirous it s-houbl elo. The noble lord then observed upon the general igno- rance that 'rrevailed in England with respect to Irish affairs, and the great bez&-t that wrould result to Ireland froms thie appoinitirent of such a coi3nttee of disinterestedj and unconnected individuials, who would dtistribute in the result of their labours, a vast atuiouns of information, throuigl the kingdom upon the subject. In the western pacts of Europe. there was no country, about which so little was ,rea;1lv kniown arnon,, ,the n,aidiu.a In, -om cases, eve the hIge clse 'h epe. Ti it rome cawes,eeven the hi'gher clmses otf t'he people. TMxs was shown in the extreme reluctance of our great capitalists to em- doy their moncy in thtat kingdom. They could find money for Peru, and Spain, ailld 'France; but not for Ireland. Now. undoubt- cdly, thonugh the stateofu affstirs in Ireland was not what i:could be wished, there was nothing to ju-stify this repugnance and alann. But it v,:Ws certainly requisite, that it' capita' was to go into Ire- land at all, it should to in thte natural course of things, and not by any forced 'ystern. lie totally denied that there was any liatural tendency in the Irish to insubordination or rebellion. The history and the circumstances of the country were never to be lost sight of. It should be remembered, that wve had first conquered, ard afterwards by bad government barbarized her people. (Hear, hear ) He had heard withi great satisfaction the Aight hon. gentle.. man declare that the Governmenst of lieland had determined to re- commend to all persens engaged in political associations to relinquish them. '['here wevre men in Ireland to whom that adivice might be addressed with considerable effect. He lhad very good reason to be- liere that the Postmaster.General of Ireland (for example) was grand master, as they called it, of the Orange lodges. Now, from what he knew of this species of office, he should imagine that there were ways of g-ving advice to individuals that were open to the Government; and whichs advice, though it might not be palatable xactly, rould be pretty certainly followed. (A laugh.) As to w hat had been observed upon Ireland s beinig al ways governed by a fac- tion, that was true enough, so far as it went; but doubtless the acts of corrupon also-ever tSo suscessful-had not been untried there. Sse had been long exposed to two enormous evils- some greaC men in England had bemn in the habit of look. ina forward to her as the place where their dependenls I risgbtbe provided for; and other great men who could not very well ss3tain public Opinion in England, went to office in Ireland on that acourit. It was requisite for her happiness ania her safety that she should be ruled by a government that was strong enough-and he would add, honest enoughi-to say to the Ribandmen and thecOrAnge- meon, "'You must not arraign yourselve- against each other, and afflict th onr it oraioities." At present we seemed to be in a most anomalous state with respect to her; neithier did we govern her by the people of the country, nor did we govern thzt people. He hiad no sort of disposition to detract from the praise whiich had been bestowed on the Roman Catholic clerl4y, for he was not one ofthose who,in the pre8cntcondition of1Ireland,would wishi to) see the inifluence they exercised over the conduict of their fio~ks taken away. The fact was, th-at thiey muist not attempt to take away that in- fluence over the body of the people, but so enlighten the people them- selves a,s to possess the best securitv that it woiuld not be exerted for perniciouis purooses. As for the Catholic priesthood, they, labouredI undler inore res'trainits than the exclusions that had been spoken of; for if one of' them presumed to marry EL Romani Cathiolic and a Pro- testant, not onily wats he liable to a penalty of5001O., buit Ft legal ar- gum-ent miziht, perhaps, be raised, even atti a,t hw tat he hiad renidered himiself' liable to the penat of et,udra statute stil unrepealed, and only imodified by usg n ecflconstruie- tion. In alluding to the established chr oIeln,i was im- poss,ible for him not to advert to a bif whc onyysedytat hOu.. h ad done itself the highest honour by reetn. I wud here ask whether any hon. gentleman suppose ttteeWas any body attachedI to anv cathedral in England wvho woald, for onec moiment, hiave daxeca (hear, hear) to brinsg into Parliament .such a measuire as the Derry' Cathiedral bill. (Hear, hear.) The fact of the introduiction o~f that bill showed, in a very clear light, thie extraordinary situiation of society in Ireland. That holise ouight, therefore, to examine thoroughly that state of' sociefty which producedi sneichstrange anomnalies.-whicih causeti opinions to be enter- tained, and schemes to be projectedl, in Ireland, which would not be thiought of or attempted in England. Oni these grounds, he was of oPinion that an inquiry -houild be institutedI into the staws of' Ire.. land, Ilie admnitted that the linmited inquiry, contemplated by, the right honoiurable sezretary Tmight be productive of sornic benefit, but lie should vote fbr the proposition of' his noble friend as more gene- rid and, cmrensive. Mr ORTH 1perfectly agreed switli the noble lord, that it was of great import-ince to ascertain the real cause of the unfortuniate sitn- ation of Ireland. That countrv had, for a long period, proceteded fromn vne affliction to at'other. Each seasoni had Its own particu- lar andl distingtxisi-r:g evil. At one timie zhie visitation of' f-amine- next, the desolation of fever--and thien all the horrors of rapine and murder. HIe saw no reason for doubting the constant recurrence of thanseevila,,untilthe causes which produced themi wereproperl yknown. A greatniumberof causes, allin action at the sanie time, were concerned in teproduction of those evils ; and he considered the vast unemployedi population as one of' the maost conspicuous of those ceauses. Where the arts of civilization were cultivatedI successfully-where peace and indulstry operated imutuially to create eachi other, they, wouid always find a hiealthy vigorous people, to whom the appetite for emnploy- ment wvas as necessary as the appetite for fooA. Whlere this w7as nol tie easec, the people became wild, untameablo-, andl ferocious. It was, disguise it as they might, the savage stare; anid, in every part I o the world whiere such a state existed, they would find the p)Opu- lation constantly divided between the two extremes of hopeless in- dolence andl dlesperate miischief. The Trishi peasant ivas Placedl at thle very botwton of the scale of society. He saw above him no class he rolthope to emulate, and, fi'om long habit, he at length received the alms that were extended to him, ne-arly writh the fannie pride that was felt by the giver wvho bestowed themi. He lost all that am- bition whichi made a man anxious en struggle for distinction in so- ciety, and remained fixed to the spot which gave him birth, eithaer im aersed in sensuality or occupied in the commnission of violenice. He saw that those whio ivere phaced over hiim were men who had sprung from another racei-who irofessed a religion whichi he was taught to consider unfriendly to hi own;~who had an interest neces- srtiY at variance with his--and iwhose sole buisiness, he imagined was, armned wvithi the law anti withi the sword, to keep him quiet and to keep himnpo-or. Thus circum)stanced, lie becamehardlen.d againSt his suprior. Hesaw in the violation of timelaw no mioral guilt, and hne his tloom, wvheni the law ovet'took him, as a patriot and a ntartyr. WVant of rank in the scale of society, und want of em- plovoment, were, he conceived, the chiel'causes of the turbuteiiee of tIbis clas-s of nen. But, in eiiuinerating those causes, they must not overlook the polverftil influence of hiabit and character---ofthose hmabiut which were transmitted fromi generation to generation. The Irish peasantry inherit from their ancestors, and they transmit them unimpaired to their posteritv-" wave after wave, in endless and barren succession." The l6arned gentleMan here entered into a slhort hi-tory of the misgovernment of Ireland from the time of Henry IT. dlown) to a recent period ; aud asked ivhether any person who heard this could say that he had a specific for soi fatal a dis- order ? Could any one hope to close, in sit hour, a wound which had been open nad .festering for azes I-le did not say this withi feelings of' despondency and despair; he said it only to maske gen- riemeni aware of thec nature and magnitucle of the difficulties with which they had to struggle, ansi to iniplore them not to trifle with that country by adopting inefficient and futile measures. Several remnedies were m-entioned for the evils of Ireland. fiYe would not speak of thiat wlichl a few nlights since engaged the attention of' thie house but there was anothier which was; proposed by an lion. baronet, and he confessed there was muchl in that plan which re- conmmended itself to him-he umeant emir-gation on an extenided scale. That ineasure fell in with the feelings, habits, and desires of the people; and in ameliorating the salvation of a country, thiey shlould never lose eight of'the max~inm- " Consult the genius ofthiep lace in all." Thtere was amongst liis countrymen a love for adventure antI en- terprise. wvhich, thouigh uinfit for persevering industry, was tlle pTOUer frame of mind for emiigration. They were constantly talking of dis- coveries in remiote quarters of the earth-thie'v were -constantly wish- igfr" Some s-afer wmord, in depths of Woods embrac'd, "Sogie happier islanid in the watery wasite." Btit for the general improvement of tlhe people, they must have re- cou rse to hiiglier methods. It would be found that there were in Irelandi certain necessary depositaries of influence ; to these they ought to apply themselves, for the purpose of'procuring their assist- ance if they could. WVithout that assistance, they couild do little towardsi cleansing the Augean stable. One of these depositaries of influence andI power wa&s the Roman Catholic priesthood : they ought to he enlisted in the cause of their country. ( Hear.) He wished that the Catholic clergy should be raised, and very much raised (hear)-that they should enjoy- an honourable confidence, anid receive it from the Government. (Hear.) The next depositary of power was on e not Possessing such great atid imnmediate influ- ence as the Catholic priesthiood, bitt possessing an influence that was ots the increase-lie ameant the Roman Catholic laity. There was no mnan bitt usiust hiave been astonished during she last 12 or 14 years at the progress of the Cathiolic laity. The truthi was, that the dis- cussion of thie Cathiolic, qiuestion in thiat houtse and in thle country hiad acted as a sort of moral compensation for the disabilities uaddr whic thy lboued,forthe hal tnde gratl toenlighten that bod. Tos diabiites ailth efectofa pwerulmoral stimu- lus ntitheRomn Cthoic lityhadadvnce inknowledge, an acelrate prgres, ad inreaing oymentum. Fifteen yeas go Cthoicbariser asalmstunknown: but now many, gentlemen of ha persuasion, distin&iikhed by their tlents, by their prooud erudlition, and, as an Irishman hewas proud to say, by titeir purity and honour, %yere at tebar-ma~n ready lo fill any situation the law offeredt tothem, wit credit to thenisaelves, and advaintage to thieir Icountry. He knew that the Cathlolic body were actuated by a j'ea. I lou spirit ; that they, wvere prone to take offience..-that the loved their fiatterers, somnetiunes, rather than their sincere friends; and knwigths,h would call on his Catholic countrymen to repress those feings s the very wsorst which they couild che-rish. Hie must, howev'er, observe that this; temper of miind grew ouat of the etrcnrmstauces In svhichinheyvwereplaced. Those circumatances,and not tie individuals, mnust .be answerable for the efi%Ct. Hie would yield to no titan in his earliest wish that thle tranquillity of Ireland should be restored by the total unnihiliation of all party feeling. But when1 he was toldi that this was to he done by the Government, tbhit the Orangemen wvere to be put down by the strong hiand of power- when it was said, that those who held fruom thir forelathers those particular tenets, were 'to be removed frmofcs in whichl they might lhave given perfect satifafac. vicen- that co contend that this was theL mnost pernicious ad. vcthtculd be given. It would plunge the country in I neWdiisorders--it would plants canker in every heart, and a dagger in every hand-it wouldI e"cite a triiumph amongst One party, and Puroduce the most bitter hatred in the other. (Hear.) The changes anti turnis ini the Government wotild be the subject of alternate hope andl fear. This Orange-man anad the Riband-man would each be anxiously waiting for lia hiour of vengeance. (Hear.) There wvere others who said, " Let Governmnent hold a parley between the contending factious, bitt attachi itselIf to neithier of theum." To take this course demanded. great temnper atid firmness;- but iii his .spinion,. if Government adhered to thlat Palas, it would iprocluce thle desired. eff'ect-slowly, perhaps; bitt surely tinder sudsl a ptroceeding, thev would,' in. the end, see thi pat spiitsubid ofItelf. Let it be'undlersttod, that he-did not want a cocilato~. overmen ii Irlan~,d bucIao imnpartial Government. The peseis Govrtimet, le beivd as perfectly impartial. NVo nian coLuld hope to gihiour or eniolunsenit there by holding this or that opinion on gthesbject of Catholic emancipation. (ltear.) lThe learned gentlea then proceedeil to speakt of' the Protestant clergyouf Ireland. e had lived with them f'rom hlis youthl; and he had a righit to say that there was no class of ,niei miore estimable for their worthAmtleir talents, their virtues, sait their liberality. (Hlear.) No man mnorerespecte(I the counitry gentlemen of Ireland: biti hY wouldl come forward and Place t4emtse?lfs in at positioii ofhsiiyand defiance to the Prote9tant clergy, be must be allowed, Ias a disinterested snaectator, wveighing the mnerits of the respective parties, to rais'e his voice iii support of the latter. He had no objection to see a Bishiop or Raphoe, or a bishop of' Tuamn, in POssession of' 7,0001. or even of 10,0001. a-year, because he Was, sure he would spend it as advantage.. ously as a Duke of Leinster, or a Duke of Devotishiire. When a clergyman, onl accotint of ihis talents and virtues, Was raited to time ilignity Of Bishop Of Cashel or Ferns, he proceeded to the couintry where he washballed wvith joy. There'he had ani opportunity bf ex- amining thle conduict, anti of rewardinig the dieserv'ing clergy. Butt the Irislh gentleman was edutcated at Cambridge or Oxford. He there received all hi notioins,a the time when th e iunmall mind wag mos t suscepttible. Whn ii etucation was completed, he proceeded ito the continent,aii on his itn .onhr posse.ssioni of his 6kmtilv' ~ Iu e nest tiin usddwscoeaieth es' 'estat. Thle firt thing he did wags to examinie thc' I (- granted by his father. After havimig settled th-esematr he procurd4 a seat in Parliament, mand nothing was heard itt itnt till it ivas announced in sorse newspaper that he la(il in the course of a debAte on an Irish question iR that hotise, levelled invidious reflectinns at the Irish clergy. ( Hear.) The learned geC- tleman then condemcned the proposition of the noble lord for a com- mittee to inquire iUlo the state of Ireland as too gencral. No prac- tical or beneficial result could arise from such a measure. The sub- ject was entirely too large and complicated for such an inquiry. Tbe noble lord, if the comrimittee were grautedi, must diyide it into com. panies, each of vhichi must go to a sep irate apartment to consider a sep.trate question. What were the subjects of inquiry? The po- pulation of the country, connected with the meant of eniployment,- the abuses of grand juries,-the appointment of sub-sherfffs,-and the whole of the Catholic qacstion. Now what information was he to get on this last poi0t? it was not to be decided by evidence, but by argurnent, and by the feelings of hunman nature. What committee could clear this question ?-none but a committee itto our own motives, our own prejudices, ouir owni hearts. lie felt grateful to Government for what they had already done for Irel;nti and he was also grateful to them that thev had not attempted more, because he waLs con- vitteed that nothing would be ever done for Irelandi if Qovernment filled its hands too full, and tried every subject at itc same moment. There were tew, he believed, who would not agree with him, that the tithe composition bill had exceeded their expectations. Theal. imation in the petty ?essiona had done a vast dcAi of good; and the eaten ion of the principles ot free trade had operated most benes ially on the whole eastern coast of ireand. The learned gentlej man then argued, that if any of the institutions of Ireland were to be motlificd, or changed, or refonnet it ought to be done by the country gentlemen of Ireland theinselves. ledrc4eadeil anly modli. fication which came from any other %uirter. fJrhe e6iuntry gentlemen alone had that pratical knowledge of IreWWa&wWich 'would enalble them to make alterations consonant with its safity. Fromt them onlyhe culd xpet any beneficial. reform; and therefore he hoped the wold egi byrefrmng themselves. (A laughi.) Sir .. NE PORTSaid the learned gentleman hiad argaed tbat. on moanv points respecting Ireland, the people of this country and the legislature were uninformed; and the course he recommends is, to keep them in the same happy state of ignorance by refusing in- qtuiry. (Hear.) Ile calledl upon tlhe Ilegislature to abdicate its functions, and to leave it to the Execittiie Government to take tip this question hiow thecy pleased) and when they pleaed. Now,it was not because the present Government had neglected the tubject, but because it hiad been.neglecred bv every Government for a lonig series of years. that he thiought it was proper the legislature should exa. mine what was done, and point out those measures which were ap- plicable! to the state of Ireland, a%d those which were Jefective. That was the scope of his noble friena's proposition ; whiile that of the right hon. secretary embraced only a smiall portion of the com- munity, andt referred merely to the administration of a single act of coercion-an act of renunciation of the benefits of the British constitution. Unless the inquiry waa taken up on the en- larged scale of hIds nob6le friend's motilon, it was useless to hope that any benefit would result to Ireland. The hio- n1ourable baro-net sat down by declaring; that the mnere diyided state of the existing cabinet upon that measuire, which was, perhaps, above all oth'ers, the most vitally important to the tran- quillity of Ireland, seemed to him an amiple reason why the le- gislature shouldl ta'ke the affasir of inquiry into its own hiands, and no0t rely for a moment, on a quecstion of' so much interest, upon the views or prporiitions of the executive governiment. Mr. STANLEY expressed his admiration of tbe warmth anid eloquience with which the honourable and learnied aemnber oppo- site (Mr. North) had delivered himself; but thought, that if his noble friend (Lord Althorp) needed any support in his motion, thie speech of that hdioiomrble and leartied member had given it to him. I ndeed5 the only argumint: with -,'hich the honouirable andI learned member had attemprted to meet the stronig case for inquiry which hils own address made out in the melancholy lit too accurate picture whichi it drew of the -miseries of Iteland, was that the sub- ject was too large for any inquiry of the hotise' ever to reach it; but thien, if it was true, 'as thb hon. mnember contended, that no benefit couild be anticipated from such an inijuiry as that prdposed by the noble lord who hiad brought the question before the house, upon what possible princip'e was it that the hon. member supported the amendmient of the right hon. secretary (Mr. Ooulburn), which still proposed an inquiry, buat of a character incomparably more limited ? His own ohject, however, (Mfr. Stanlev's) in rising at so late an hour, wns not to discuss thte general merits of the present subjec, hut merely to account for the Yote which he had given-anid given reluctantly-agalnst a motion for inquiry o-n a former evening. Ile hzd,. n6tivep that vote because he felt atny disiniclination to intt irvf On thte 'contrary, he thought that oneof thegrestest evils under wehich freland laboured was the ignoranice of those who legislated f~r lier of the real evils unider which she was suffering : but he h&dl voted apainst the motion of the hon. gentlemnan near him (Ms~. Hume), because he objdeted to the narrow spirit which breathed 'throughout the intent of it. He objected decidedly to an inquiry wbichs went only to ascertain how far the chiurch revenues of Ireland ~vere larger than a commnittee of the hiouse rmig1st think they ouszh.t to, be, and what potOn f inoney mightsafely be taken ofF fiom them. His dislike was not Ftoatn inquiry into the church establilhiment of Ireland, but to the sprtin which the suggested inquiry hadl becen proposed to be con- ducted. Hehad felt himsgelf in the dilemma of being compelledtogive up eithier a present advantageora principle ; but, inlresigning theim. mediate benefit, he thoughit he had chosen the m-inor evil of the two. Sir JOHN' SEIIRIGHT supported the original motioni, and ob- Ijected entirely to trusting the afiair to the managmenit of the execu- tive government. Sir FRANCIS BURDE L'T regretted much, that after all the able sipeeches which had been delivered on both sides thie question, a eighit hon. gentleman opposite (probably Air. Canning) should still1 continue to withihold the benefit of his eloquence and opinion from ithe house. WVith respect to the speech which had just been delis vered by the bon. and learned tnemberforPlympton-Ear!e-a speech no lcss remarkable for its s-pirit and eloquence, than surprising for its Derfect inconsistency-he. feared that he must apologize to the house t'ot replying, even in a word, to an argument which, at every second sentence, completely replied to itself; but there were a very few points in the speech of the hionourable andl learned mem- ber, to whichs he was des-irous shortly of addressing himself; and he could only excuse himrself by promising that lhi comments should be verv stiort indeed. The honourable and learned mieaber hatl commeinced, then, in drawing a very mnelancholy, andc desponding piceture, andl he (Sir F. Burdett) trusted a very highly-coloured one, of the disastrous state of Ireland, and he had accompanied that description 'withi arguments, all going to show most forcilhly that the condition of that country cried out uipon all England, and especially upon the English House of Commnons, andi still more es'necially upon her Own represenitativeg in the Eng- lish House of ('ommonst, to probe her situation to the very bot- tomn, and to ascertain that whichi he (Sir F. 1lurdett) feared was lit. tlc known to those who prescribed for her-the real causes anid ex- tent of the ev-ils withi whichl she wits overwhelmed ? but at that POint the hen. and learned member stopped, and suggested a course of proceeding which; on the English side of the water At least, would seemi most extraordinary for the end proposed, for the way in which hie wished the house to probe this maitter to the hot- toni, was by aivoiding altogether to go into inquiry uI%)n the subject. lIlSrFrni lurdett)'agreed fully in t pricety of knowing, to thec very, bottom, the condition of ~e land at the present hour-a condition which he said, it was a toui disigrace, not only to ministers, buit to the ilousieof Commons, that they had sufferaufit to endure and continute so lonig: but on what principle, after no completely, proving the necessity- of efficenet inea- stires, the honourable and learned mniebeC for Plympton could turn rounid aud vote for that most inefiiet-t easure; thte amendment of the right honouxrAble secretary for rem=d4. hei fobr his own part, had nbo hojof evegbeingablewtecamprehend: for if any thing could he ievi~6eI that was superlatively futile and.inefficient, it was the amendment of the right honourable sedretary. For what did it amount to ? Why, merely to an inquiry how it had happenied that! the insuirrection act-the only remedy ever tried upon Irish dis- tresses-had totally failed to produice the results which its coon- trivers had anticipated ; withi a sort of farthier intention (half developed), of following this, inquiry of its failure up by, renewing it; suetl yet this measure, which was confessedly inefficient even flor the mirerablepurpaseofprddueingthatpteseiltsubmissionwichfol anOd tyranLts t~iuught 4t to dcall peic~ rVid txtanqtii.lity, )iclest bring about that lasting,steady quiet, which was the restilt frro.9per- ous condition and contenrt-this wretched, bald, and impotent pic of legislation, which was approved inckompetent even to put Xow= the commion distordlers whichi distress and despair drove the poput- lation ofthe counties to the daily commission of-this frivolous, miis- ch_tievos, and miost ineffective attempt to remedy existing evils, the hon. and learned member, aftet all his expositIons, was dispsed to suPPOrt anAd be contented with . The hrin. mhember hQ said, with too much truth, that the Catholic peasant of Ireland was in such a situation that he had nothing to hope, and nothing to fear. The definition was a concise and an accurate one of despair; but was 1Ireland to be tohl( that she hadl no choice, and that she must for ever remain in that same condition, because her grievances were too large tor Parliament to embrace or inquire into ? Why that very statement by the hon. gentleman ought to be an argument unanswer able with the hou,4e for acceding to the proposal cif the noble member for Northamptonshire. And the hon. and lear;i,ned meboer Fwent stall further than this. H-e toldl the house, towards the _lose of his speech, thpt these same miserable people, who wvere described as Iwithout room fur hope or fear-who stood in a sitaation which, whatever their faculties, must deprive themi necesa-rily of ail con: rage and eniergy-he told the house that the very provisions.. which seemed fit to cruish thoese people haa operated, up to a certain pseint, to their advantage; that their exertions had received a stimulus; Fan'd tht t every point, they were in a state of imiprovement; and, if 1thi as true, not only was the fact a- most gratifyinig onie to be known to thebhouseand to thecotintry, but it ialso slldJwcd thai the ojen who under such circumnsacaiom could arrive at advancement, were ripe for the enjoyment of that emancipation which, on the pretence of their ignorance, hadabeen so long" withheld from them, and which he (Sir F. Burdett), althought he did] not look upon it as a care for Fall the ills withl which Ireland was afflicted, took ro be a great mea- sure of moral policy, without which all other remedies both would prove, and ouight to prove, unsatisfactory. The hionomirable and learned member went on with his, happy facility at portraying evrI circumstance that occurTred to hm-he went on toportray the bazesadadvantagesi of the Orange systemn in Ireland. The Or e,according en the honourable gentlemian, were not merelyg the only loyal, but they were the most virtuous, tht Fmost benevolent, and the most considerate beings in thie coun- try. And these persons, under whiose governm-ent and guidance the evils whichl cursea irelanid had been growing up for centuzies, therse we're the people to whom the lion, gentlemanl was for delivering her grievances, to be examnine-d into and got rid of ! And thie thing did not stop here, for the Catholics cime in for their comm-ends. tion aswell as theOrangemen.' So anxiousvrpds the hon. and learned member to do justice, that evesv party ift Itik turn was praised ; anid the only, surprising thingz was,how people of such admirable feelings ever happened,by any accident,to fall out amnong thetoselveal! There was one point, however, o'i which the hon. and learned member for Plymptoll agreed withi hiim (Sir F. Burdett), though certainly, not in thinkin,g that the insurrection act wouild be well rene*ed, aofter its confessed and miost transpiarent faildre, it was in thiinking that ioine relief' miglht be given to IrelandI ii a system of coloniization- a course which, in the endl, would be fouRd absoluitely necessary, even to enable LanglaRed to carry into operation any other measuires of'relief'which she might contemnplate. Whben he spoke, however, of "4Colonization ," he befcd to be uinderstoodas bvno means confound- ing that course with 'emigration." Enmigration and colonization wvere things very different in their effect Ermigratitin was going oni too fast in Ireland already. It went on, because no m'an would staY in the couintry but such as were Orangemoen, or men who ad ot owe to uitit;andperons wha possessed industry, talnt,andmodrat cpitl, arred her means away front the curse of rane scedeny o pacs werethy culdnike seof them in qiet itwas o sste lie ths (hic begare a ounrylthat he ean toadocae; nd,infac, te cure wnchhecontem- platd ws on whch n EnlishGovrnmient. as England stood. would evernture to look at for whatever ight be said of the late spirited conduct of the iouse of Comomons, he felt convincel, that in the present state of the house and of the representation, there was no M1inister could dare attempt a really vigorous mea- sure, whether of peace or of wrar, of foreign commerce or do- mestic policy; and therefore colonization upon the scale which he Proposed-that was, the sendirng ofh a large proportion of t)he Irish population with such securities aforded, and such views opened, as should make their change of homc a blessing to-themselves as well as to thecountry they leftbelhind thetn-.colvnization, upeuuacale like this, was whatheneverhopedtoseeadopted. This fart, however, did notalter either his wish upon the subject, or its opinion of tho expe- diency. The course would be attended with expense, he granted;- but still it would be expense well bestowed; for, withoult getting rut of the superabundant population of Ireland, and taking measures to prevent its recurrence, nothin valuable could be effected towards improving the condition of the country. Want and despair had ever been the parents of outrage, and ever would continue to be so. The population must be kept down to what a country could sup- port, or it was in vain to expect to preserve it in- a, state of peace or regularity. And here he agreed with the hon. baronet who had spoken from under the gallery early in the debate-the best Govern- ment that had ever existed could not have controlled a kingdom cut ii into potato gardens. There was destruction in such a system; and w erever land-owners practised it, misery and distress of every kind mustbe the consequence. Ia Irelaw,l however, there wasa populatiOn which bad been encouraged,and wbich wsunowtobegot ridof; and he repeated, there-was no course butt by colonization. Fer gentlemen tatked of employnient for die peoile and want- of capital ! If an thing like profitable means of employiT ,g it weze toe be found, did reot the house think that there were per)ple enougha who would carry their capitat to Irelaud to-morrow? lVhy, it would be impossible tc keep capital out of Ireland, If there wa!tr any thing to be gov by tabaing t there; and any mesasre to force it did harm nl,adnot good. Any attempt at benevolent associations for~ Luaoe of trade didl mischief, Commerce couild not be carie onupon benevolent principles; and steebinstitutions no more benefittod the community thani they did the individuals connected with them. It was aL curiout fact, that Silr Williamn Temple, in dis- cussing the questoio whether it was best that a new kingdom should be planted with every local advantage, or with no natutral advan.- tame at all, took- Ireland as an illustration of the first case, and Hiolland as an example of the second. Sir IV1. Temple dec'ided that the want of advantages was best, as it comnpalled to habits of exertion in the beiginning, which led to wealth and great- ness in the end ; hut after quoting the richies of Hollanci, made upon a bog scarcely rescued from the sea, he said of Ireland-" Here thie land is so richi, and the population so small, that a man who works for two days in the week may live in comfort for the rcst"-from' whichi he (Sir W'. Temple) concluded that the Irish were careless and idle. Now this was a strong illustration of the truth for which he (Sir Francis Burdett) wits contending. Thie popula. tion it was, of Ireland now, that formied the ruin of the country. Clearly, in Sir inV. Temple's time, Ireland could not have possessed a quarter of the wealth that shie Possessed. at thie pre- sent day;a but, from the thiinness of' her Vopulation, the people lived in easeand abixrtdance. tYn.thing was most cerrain,-it was not for the safety of England that Ireland should continue in her present situation. The influx of poverty from Ireland everyi year im- poveriRshed the English labourer, and miade a pauper of iun, in de- spie o hs idusryandfrualty.1'e noblemen of Irelanid-the gealemn-ad arg ad podutie btaes, and the poor which thoe eraes eneatd wrein he ndthrwnupon England for supprt.Theexitin sysem as ne regantwith wretchedness to te oe cunty, nd hichwassur evntullyto extenid much of itsbanfu inluncetotheoter.Topersis in going on blindly, was a stretch of absutdity of which the houe coulid not be guilty; and the question was, could any time be more fvual o nur than the present. If, at a tinie like the present,we iitr seeme4l to have Ealmost nothing wherewith to ocuyhermns when the country wa in a ttf perfect peace a oe n a nothing to apprehend from any quart.-r of the worl abroad-if. undei~ auch circunristances, Ministers couild ntfind time' to attend to th-e adiTstresas of lrel, nd, Ireland might bid good night to Lthe relief altogether : for the evil coulsi never be greater than it was, nior tfie erzemedy more loudly called for ; nor could any opportunity, ever owesr more perfectly favourable for applying it. r.N OYsTa' explained, but 'in n tone whichi did not reach the gallery. Mfr. PEEL said, that this was the secondI occas'ion v,ithin a short period, on which the hon. baronet opposite had expressed his dissa- tisfaction at the silence observed by M1inisiers. The hon. bart.,how- ever, should in justice remember, that (uponi thie point of speaking) he had greatly the advantage ever those of whomi he complained. Comig dwn,afte a ongabsece romthe house, with -a keen ap~tit fo deate h ouht o cnsierthat the feaLst would natu- raly b les empingto hoe wo wrepresnted vith it night after nigt, ndsomties,inded irqre e eauseame. The right hon. hon seretry heaproeedd t reretthat the formis of t"he.house prevnte hi ho. ad. eared ried (r. North) from going over th nubrless points in which the hon bart. had mnistak-en him ; adin - coming to the question before the house, observed, that it seemed to bins to be within a very narrow compass. The suxbject for discussion, as he thought, was mutch les the general state of Ireland, than the comparative merits of the two courSse whic wee popoed y hs rghthon. frienid near him and by te nblelordoppsit. Eah prtypropoed a select c-ommit- tee,andit oul bewel toexa Inetedifference between their view. Th nole lrd (ordAlthrp)wished to inqutire into the stae o Ielad gneall; hs igh hn. friend (M1r. Goulburn) to akethenatre nd xtnt f te dstubaneswhich existed in certain dstricts There wasyno questi(on therefore as to the inquiry, the only question was as to its extent. Here was Ireland, then, grreat Part of which was subject only to the ordinary operation ofl the lawv; some part of it enjoying perfecttranquillityr, othier partscomparatively tr*nquil, and other parts in a state of the greatest possible disorder, kept down, and indeed scarcely kept down, by measures ofareat and unconstitutional severity. Whien the right hon. secretary said, "' I will take for the immediate object of thi; inquiry the state of those parts of the sountry in which the law ist at present suspended." didI he not take that wvhichi was the natural, and certainly the candid course? Did not those portions of Ireland call more urgently for present examination than the qutiet p-artsa? If the honourable secre- tary had selected any small district, anid rtmnfined hsvest t then perhaps, with reason, some objection might have been rmpde ; bitt let the house only look %t the extent of territory to which the right hon. gentleinan's plan referred, embracing the counties of Clare, Cork, Limerick, Kerry, Kilkenny, Kildare, thelKing's County. and Tp erry. Wuld ny ma whoknew the size, an-d popula- tIon an~theimpatanc ofthos conties, say that they dlid not sflrd far secienof relnd enealy? M'iuch had been said of te idisositon f Gvernentso ring thep resent question for. ward bu hedened hat ny easreshadbeen proposed in whic miistes hd nt ben fund eed sogo hiand in hand. The conistanit answer to complaints of thetr of relaind had been. " Point out the object of inquiry, and we are ready to dIisculss it with YOU." But he (Mlr. Peel) wvas ac-tually surprised to hear the abuse which had been lavished upbrr the amnendment of his right hon. friend ; for the very inquiry which that gentleraan's amiiend- ment suggesqted, had been formrally proposed to the house last ses- sion,l by thle hon. baronet who now seconded the original motioni. The, motion was met by an aniendment which was not broughit agiiinst the motion troni any low and invidious feceling of opposition, but was the eftect of deliberate policy-his tight hxon. friend. havinig pledgedI himself htst sessions that if' the reinewal of the insutrrection act should be required in this,that he would oal'rno further objection to the house institutin'g Fn inquiry into the state of thiat country. The right hon. gent. dlefendted at "ome length the Governmnent an~d [the house 1-roni any charge of Indifference to the fate of Ireland, and reminded the house of the various important mneasures wvhich liad been adloptedI in the course of the last seven years, for the anmeliora. tion and benefit of that couantry, especiially with respect to education, tithes, the niagistracy, and illicit distil'ation. * Mr. CA NN I NGyioae. not at this latchour wishing to add an~y argo.- ments to the disculltos; but chiiefly because lie could nuot justify it toI his mindl to let the invitatioAs of thTe noble lord pass by withiout some notie o hi pat. eferingto he lluionof thie noble mover to, one ueston hichthe obl ioradmttcd to be not the fittest sub- jec fo inuir bytheInbursof comitee ndwhich yet he seeed o onsde aSa uesio whchit immiiaeyconcerned theI hous an th Goernmnt o cnsier,the noble lord secented also to supos tat he (Mr. Cannig wa meriously called upon to step fo-rward in sup po rt o f i t at thspriua tines. Now forhimself,hei must be alowed to say, tha htoknvewof that great question which was at all likely to induce him togo at present into the dis- ctssion of it, without some superior prooainto that im-plied in the argument of the noble lord. Hie agreed with the noble lord thai there was nothing in it upon which the labours of a sommittee were likely to c~ilighten them by putting them in possession of new and extraordinary circumstances or views. There was nothing in other circumstanices which promisedi just at that particular m-o- ment to throw light on one side or the other nf the argument wvhich dtivided the opinions of Parliament. For his own part, his opinions on that neat subject remained exac tly the same as they had always been. Dlid the noble lord come to himn for any proof of the since- rity of his opinionit upon it ? In the first place, he denied that his conlduct or language on any occasion had furmished reasons for sus. cihii'v'Irity ; in the second place, lie deniied that thie noble ordhdanvrigh todenmand an uhpledges. kle for olcneinthe Suppot whch h hadgive the catholciics, had always taken care not to ut imalfi thir ands. Wh)atever others who liati advocated theircaus migh hav chosen to do, he had always abstained fromi conultng iemasto the propriety- of advanAing or. refraininig in te masurs wich he deermed necestsary to their interests. His conduct might be considered righit or wrong ; but in all Ihis operations he had abstained-studiously, Purposely. anxiously abstained-from beinig bound by, their views and cpi' nions in the dlischarge of a duty- which he considered not s much their affair as that of the public. He did not blames those who had acted in a different nmanner. but he had always felt. and continued to feel, that he neither owed, nor would he ever pay to them, any account as to his conduct whether he advanced or abstain- ed froim the purstuit. of' that object in which the Catholics were chiefly implicated. As to others, he knew niot by what right the noble lordl clamed of himn that he shoultd ta ke this or thiat step at that or this particular diine. He was bound by no agreemenit withi any one oa the! subject. He had recieivedl the suppii,rt of many, but without conditions. He hastened, however, to translate into plain language the motion of the nioble lord. He tsaid that the Governmient was divide uon the subject of the Cathiolic question; and he stated that as a characteristic of the presetit Gove'rnment,as if it were something new in the construction of this Government. Hle would tell the noble loryd5 that s1ince theL question had been a question, no Government had been broughit together which was not dividedI uPon it. He did not say whethier this was right or -wronzg-fortunate or unfortunate. It di' so ha pen-the q-tiestion cauine into thle worldi, as it were, under thijs fatality-it hati! remainied tinder it during all chsanges of adMiDistratioxn'since. Others mnight lamnent it, and then they wouild be bound to taLke some steps towards producing an agree. ment. Not so with him. Be the opinion correct or otherwise, wise or unwitse, it appeared to hiim that the question,not to speak oF actually carryitig it, was never likely to be carried under a governmient uinited uponthbat point and at variance upon niany other-s: nay, more, tha the question had a better chance of beinig c-arried tinder a giidd overnment, than undler a government so united. aIwa)- t 'a s held thiat opiniion, 'having always proclaimed. i,tenbe lord could have no rih o aluonhmt abandon it. The wisdom of the opinioni miight be called in quetio, bt h culd not new be calle upon to chiange it. Tro be plan, hatthen6be lrd ean wa, tat he was bound to proclaim to is ollagus i ofice tht te vridsas iiow come in which theymuttconcr inone nimo, ad thiat opinion most be his. Thr obl lod ws o opnio tht te time was come, and to in- duce im t acthe hed ou a bit w icmust be alway's tempting to men of talent and spirit-.the predoinance of his own senti- ments, supportedby tie majority of that house. But to examiocemore strictly, the noble lord said many civil hnsfhm n fhscn duct in the Governalent. Trhe noble lord must ktisov that he was not there by his own ssekilig, or from any choice or wish of his own. Had he inlqisted upon those conditions, in all probability he would Ihave been far away ; and though it mnight have beern better for hiim- self, it would not have helped to avance the question. He blitev- ed that the noble lord calculated too much unon its progress. He (Mr. Canninz) believed that the question would ultimately make its way. He believed that the Government was before the public with it, and there was a strong and powerful feeling in the country against it. He believed that it could not be carried until the opinions of the coantry were more advanced in its favour. Any reasure must prejudice it, which went to urge its consummation by force, against feeling. fle believed that it would succeed; but it could only be hoped for as argument and reason were enlarged, as jealousy and prejudice were doae away. The noble lord said, that the question waa. a great question, upon which all able statesmen ought to agree. Was it the only question of that ssrt ? Suppose he were to break with his present colleagues to ac- cept the co-operatiOn and support of his ne.v suitors, was he sure that there was not another wife or nsiatress as dear to themn, and ihat he might not have the very same question of discrepancy in opinions to struggle wimh ? For instance these were their opinons upon parliamentary refonr, to which they were as strongly pledged as to the question of Catholic emancpation. (Murmurs of discon tent from the Opposition.) Were they, or were they not,'pledged to parliamentary reform ? The country believed so. It was generally understood that they were bound not to accept office without the conditioni of effecting parliamentary reform. (Cheers, mingled with cries of " No.") Whether it were soor not. altered not Mis ar- guwneat. WVith what face dii they challenge him with discrepancy of opinion upon the Catholicquestion, when they themselves stood pledged to a question of infinitely graver importance-a question that went to the&foundations of the constitution ? He defied them to show that there could be any better agreement between him and them, or between themselves one with another, than that whielh existed between him and his present colleagues upon tie formte q,uestion. WYhy, then, there were two great questionls, each of na. Qonaltlppo?tance. Those vltm were prepared to augreepos bott niglit be la a suitable condition to staridlogether in. tile sarn6 go- rernment.. Unfortunafely for hicia, whilfe he advocated:- one,. ie consiaered the other as anomalouis and revoltirig. Hle could. ie in no condition tfo accept the co..oper'atioin of the genl,e- esen opposite. Trheir banners mi-ight be~ mingledl for a timne, )Ut soon they m-ust sItandi oit adverse sile-s.". )It h6p'ed he had aa- isfied the house-it would be presumptuous to suppose that he had iatisfiedithe noble lord, lie challe'.gej s,he'detection ofany incon- iisteney in his opinions, the wisdom of whichi mighit be questioned, )ut not the sincerity. He cotuld noa agree with the noble ord, that that was a question which ought to be carried by the mere .nfiuence of the executive. If,however, he chose tofind fadlt with uim for not now bringing it forward, lot~ him recollect what batlbeen. he fate of the mceasure proposed last year by his ticht hon. friend. :he Attorney-General for Ireland. All those splenclid taleats end. rilorts which were offered to the highest bidder because they were uot boqu5ht up at a certain price, were withdrawn fromn himu sud- iculy. The owners took up their hatus aidA retired, because ~he, question was not supported by the whole force of.- the: liovenment. He did not blame them for what they had lone. But what hope did it leave to himn or any other .ndividual. to renew the labour ? If the quxestion had gone'into i.beyanco, the faultc lay with them who first turned it to a partial put-pose. It was lilkely to be carried with the least shock to ppiblic 'eling under a divided Government.TemmnLi a und Into a partv question, and used as an instrument for displacina- tagoni,ts, that moment the chances of its success 61unk a hundrela'l. He cudnot say- if there was any mode left of resto-ing it to its, frormer situation ; and he was rewuced at present to the mere iope that it wouldt be so. As to the motion, however, it was e*reed that the committee was no fit place for the discussion of that ques- tion. It remaiaed to be co-nsidered which of all the several tOPC p oDn,, niected with Ireland was likely to be benefitted by that mnode of in- iy.He expressed his approbation of the use of Parliamentary ~eaeandl discussion, and of truisting to them rathe-r thana to the miere strength of the executive government. Ho - ese- pected mnuchi fromi these instruments in working upon the imind of Ireland. Niritk ,,,pet to associations of Orange., men or Ribandmen, or these Cathiolic associations which he consitlered morcanomalous than either, ha was of opinion, with bis lion. friend near himi, that nothing was more to be avoidled in such casies than too preCipitate an exertion of the powers of the ex;eciative, or too bus-Y an application of those of Parliamient. There was a itreat difinculty in dealing witlh insitituitions, even thouigh rurt to dangerous folly and abuise, which had grown up out of the freedomn of actionl. The chief duty of Government; in thosep cases was, not to interfere unless it were seen that the evilfs became~ intolerabl'e, and that they promised no chatngei or diminution for the fature. The great point of discrimiination was between the limits which showed where the duty of passiveness eis&ed, -and where that of interference began. As top the argument uprn the church establishment, to talk of it with any view to an abridgment of its wealth, the hoiuse having already decided upon that subj.,tct, the noble lord was deprived of all benejfit in the argument; The hon.w baronet distinguished betwveen tithes and the relnt of an estate, and thouight their asstimilation sbsurd in the extreme. A grent part ot the clergy were paid with rent, and no less than one-third of the tithes were held by the laity. Then it was said. that the portion paid the cler-gy was on conditiorn of services. This was an argumnent ; but it lav the other wav. Did it not sound strange to stay to the clergy7, 11Yumust relin4uish your tithes, because you do something for thnem. You mighit keep them, if indeed Yost enjioked them in laud- abte indolence, as we, the lav proprietors-, do." The safest way was not to meddle withi property at all. Is was impossible to limit the alterations to onecelass,with entire security to the remnainder.There miight be periods when the exi-genees of state requiredl the sacrifice of property; but we wvere not in that necessitv, nor would lie under- take to contemplate it, howeVer remotely. Hie thou4ht as ill of the comnmission whilch had been proposedI to inquire into the state, man3- ners, and deporunent of the Irish clergy. There was a precedenit for it,e badt an omninouas one. It was that of a similar commission, issue uner Henry VIII. ; andI they all knew how its laboiurs ter- miinated. Having taken in review clite labours of Parliament witht respect to grand juiry prescntmeDtLS, the magistracy, and the sheriff%, he observed that the few renmaining topics wouild be dealt witli in thec commnitteeaccording sto theamendment moved by his right hon. friend, which amendmaent was brought forward ini consequence of a pledge given last year. Its coincidence with the tmotion of the noble lordI was purely accidental, and by no mearns indlicated shiyness as to any proper inquiry into the. affairs of I reland. Mr. T IERiNEY apolegized for detaininig the hiouse, being in- duced thereto by a few remiarks of thle! riglisthon. genit., whtclh touichedI himn alrmost personally. W~itls respect to the motioni on Catholic emaLncipation, in the sessione of last ye--ar he had said then, and he said now, that as the righit hionouirtbie gentleman was nea-rly, sure of a majority in this house, anid as surce ot the measure being in the miinority in the House of Lords, though for other purp oses the right hon. gent. was prepared wyithi as full a majority in one hostse as the: other, he did consider the bringing forward that meOasure as little better thian a mnock~ery. Yet because lie had alwayt; supported the question, so he would not thlen withdraw from it, andl for the sake of appearances onily, he gave it the support of' his vote. The right hon. gent. assumed ihat it was impossible for him to have acquired for that question the support of Govern2ment. Ile would. ask thec right hon. gentleman--did he, ever trvy? (Cheers.) Let not the bouse receive so easily, the insinuaiion that his noblo friend had offered him the co-operation of his party if he would, undertake. IHis noble friend hwit not done any siuch tuuing, nor would lie, because, its fact, he had no such power, All that his no- ble friend had said amounted to somnething like this: addressing the right hion. gent., hie observed, " You are a fortunate mian, yott have risen to a situation ini the Government which'" (begging Piar- don of the right hon. gent.) " ou could never have thjoghit to' readsi" tisghter); " 1your cond~sct in the course Of this anda th Ianst session- ~aws m-ade you nmany friends : go? on and prosper, al yI ou have to do is to hold to the principles whicih you have profevssed : don't forget your principles, and yout iay depend upoa the support of Parliament." All that was asked olf the right hon. gentle,'tiin w2s, that lie would try what he could do for the question. U4e ndght say that he had no, hope of doing anything withouxt the help of thle Oj,position. That was not his (Mlr. Tierney's) propo~ition. Hie. referred to what the riKht honourable gentleman might have don'e or himiself. Did he suppose that he wvas stopped fromr his emigrai3oua out of any respect or affection for him ? W.as he not aware tlhat thei't, was one miember in the Cabinet, and' that not an inconsiderable one. whio thought that there was very little to choose between the rigjlt hon. gent. andi the Pope? (Loud. laughter and cheersi.) Could 'he doubt, in short, that the Catholic question would have been adopte if he had only chosen to make is a condlition of~Joininic the cabinet- he did not say to insist upon its being imminediately, but gradually car'ried-when he saw thje anxiety ot somne of that cabinet to mnaintairn office, no matter in wvhat company ? (Laughter and cheers.) lio hioped he had cleared hinmself ot any iniiputation or suspicioa of having dealt unfairly as to that quecstion. Tuere vas anothier point to which 'he muist replv. The right hiorourable gentleman was continually entrapping the house into a belief that hie and his hon. frieinds were anxiouis to join him (Mlr. Canning) in office. For hig own par!, he was niot conscious of any suchi wish. (Laughter.) -No one was mnore disposed to do justice to the talents and conduct at the righit hon. gentleman than hintself: but it was a batti return,notr to say an imipolitic one. to holdI him and his friends up to the coun- try as persons altogethier unfit companions for him. Their support alreadyv given) had'been pretty considerable, andc the right hon. gent.. was asize of it, as long as he continued to pursue his present course of conduct. But, said the right lion, gentleman -~ su are pledged to, the support of Parliamentary reforni if you come in." The'y were pledged to no suchi thing. (Obeers.) Hfe (Mr. Tierney) was most anxious for thie suokcess of Parliamnentary Reform. But lie w.is bound by ano pledge upon tha sub)j ect; and ifhe took office to-morrow mnorning, no one could reproach him for neglecting to miake stipula- tions in its favour. To the question of Parliamuentary reform he was seriously atid earnestliy inclined, because he thiouight it niec'es- sary for the sacurity of the constitution. But a bonLd of patty it never could be. How shouldl it be ? Some of his friends wvere agreed upon it. others were opposed to it ; and among those whbo concurred,there were a thiousand shades of opinion as to' the specific degree of reform., Not so with the other question, which could have but one mean- ing. Broad Catholic emiancipation war all that the right lion, gent. had to layr down. He had accepted office without stipulating that it should be carried, thoughi hoknew that it oughit tobe carried, and. that it neyer could be carried, because there was one in the cabinet, who was the most powerful part of the cabinet, opposed to it. AIll that he and his friends wanitedt was, to make the right hon. gentle- man the mnost powerf'ul part of thie cabinet, on condition thiat, he would uphold the- principles which he avowed. The right bon. gen- tienana then oughit not to represent them as an unxworthyv set with.t whom he cautiously sought to remain at a distance. He' might de- dupni,unless he went on in a manner something different R!,m hatwhchhe seemned disposed to use, lie wvould not comne downt to the house so triumphiantly in another session.The country at present gave himn credit for consistency. Thiere was aL phirase. however, ex- pressive, though homely, of playing fast and loose. He would like to know mote exactly what the righit hutnoura'nle gentleman pro- posed to do as to Cathiolic emancipaition. Suppose it were carriled. here, it would, in all probability-, he rejected by the other house. Did the right honourable gentleman doubt that sueth wouldl be the case ? Placed behiind so good a leader as the Arch bishop of Canter- bUrY, a place-man would naturally think he was safe in all questions respecting churchi matters. How muLst it be, thien, when he saw' tile Archbishop of York, and iseven other Bishops, enlisted on the same side? And if at the hieadl of this body the prime mi- nuster were seen, what would be said then? Why, that the advocates of emnancipation had tried their utmost, und only see what a miserable minority they are in ? Ilie appetaled for ithe pro- bability of this to two; hills which had been lately introduced--one of which went no further than to puit the Englisli Catholics on the samec footing wvith the Irish. It was carried almost unanimously, in this house; but whben it wvas sent up, he ought to say down, to the lordts, it was rejected byna large majority. And ail 'this confusion RI m iht, perhaps, betrared to te sentimsents ot'one man initliar house, alnlgthe futuire views of politicians with respect to him. (Loud cheers.) WVhat they lhad asiced, then, of tie right hon. gent. was, that he would take that course which. was likely to leadl bim to glory-that. hie would be steadfast in the pursuiit oDf those principles to whichhier wasabl togiv lie ad eerg, ad tat he would stanld out for the adotio ofthoe easresupo whchthe security of the empirer depened. hey aked ojuntionthe wisedl oe:teyol iiis old speeches over again. (Laughter.) They would occa- sionally answer his arguments, but thyc would never ask him to give up his admiration for old Sarum and the other boroughs. (Laughter.) Let him not laboar at misconceptioas, but take mat. ters as they stood. If he would pursue the course most glotious to himself, they were there ready with their support for him; if he refused, they could not help it. All that they asked in the last case was, that the Tight honourable gentleman would. look with an eve of more condescension upon the endeavours of a few humble individuals who wished lo assist him. (Continued laughter and cheers.) 3Mr. CANNING explained. He had not insisted on the fact that the Opposition were pledged to Parliamentary reform. But, whether or no, it was impossible for him to find a united Govern_ ment had he joined them, because they must have been divided, either among themselves, or eith respect to him, upon the qcuestion, of reform in Parliament. Sir F. BLAKE complained that The ministry was comrposed of individuals of discordant opinions. f he were asked what ie would do with the present Administration. he would say, "Do awav with them." (Laughter.) The liberal part of the cabinet were clogged .it, their movements by 5hieirar:chaiii oftheir unwilling companions. ('- Hear," and laughlter.) The ultras in the cabinet, he feared, would never become liberal. the motion should have his cordial Tord ALT HORP ssida few words in replv. The house then divided: the numbers were- For tlhe amendsent, 184M1 Against it, 13 i Alajority, 48. The original motion was therefore lost. The other ordersof the day being disposed-of, the houseadjourneA at AK o.u A'rR vArBZolty TUR'M 5 O'CLOCE. HOUSE OF COM1NM(lJIt Nft. - *N BOSSTMEVY P:F.R f"rTA' PT.'JT'PTA%!