House Of Commons, Thursda...
The Times, 1824-05-14T00:00:00

The city of Hieretbrd gas bill was read a third time and passed. Mlr. H. SUMNINER presentetl a petition from certain individuals residing near the site of the intended South London Docks, praying to be heard by counsel against the bilL.-Referred to the committee on the bill. Alderman WOOD presented a petition fiom the watermen ply- ing at Trinity-stairs, praying for compensation, in case the Thames tunnel bill rshould be agreed to.-Laid on the table. Colonel BAGNVELL presented a petition from the Roman Ca- tholics of Carrick-orn-Suir, against the disabilities under which the Catholic bodv labour.-Ordered to be printed. Mr. LOCKHART presented a petition from the inhabitants of Oxford, for the repeal of the whole of the tssessed taxes.-Ordered to be printed. Lord STANLEY presented a petition fromabodyof tanners and curTiers in the county of Lancaster, against the hides and skiasbill. -Referred to the committee on the bill. NEW BEER BILL. Lord STANLEY presented a petition fronm thetown of Brinkley, Lancashire, against certain parts of the new beer bill, which, the petitioners were of opinlon,would producc disadvant4ges grrtly out- weiehinc any benefits that might be expected from it.-Ordered to be prited. b?Jre DAViES presented a similar petition from the innkeepersof Wercester.-Laid on the table. Mr. LITTLETON presented a similar petition from certain districtg in Staffordshire. The hon. gentlemaan observed, the feeling a,ainst the bill was so general, that he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be persuaded to abandon his scheme. The diffter ence in the strength of beer brewed in different parts of the country was so great, that it would be most difficult for the right honour- able gentleman so to shape his measure as not to inflict great in- jury in some quarter or another. He hoped he would not persist in carrying this bill, but that he would withdraw it for the purpose of introducig something of a simpler nature next year. Mr. MWIABERLY said the wise course of proceeding would be, to go into a committee, for the purpose of considering the whole question with regard to the different interests that were connected with it. The measure had created a warmth of feeling throughout the country which was almost unparaleled. There was not an in- terest connected with it that had not complained. If the right hon. gent. had adopted the plan which he (AMr. Mxdaberly) had proposed_ that of transferring the duty from the beer to the malt-all tis i feel ng would have been avoided. It was a glaring injustice that one class of his Majesty's subjects should pay so much more than an- otherfor the same article. .Mr. DAVENPORT made a few observations, which did not reach the gallery. Lord STANLEY thought it would be advisable to postpone the bill for another year. Notwithstanding the alterations that had been made in themessure,itwa stiU very objectionable in manv parts. Atter a few words from Mr. LAWLEY, It was laid on the table. Mlr. SYKES psesented a similasr peti ion from the common brew- ers of Kingston-upon-Hul.-Laid on the table. Captain BRUCE presented a similar petition from the brewers of the town of AUoway.-Ordered to be printed. A similar petition was presented from the innkeepers of the bownr of Gainsborough. Mllr. IIEAUMONT presented a petition from the town of Hex- ham, against negro slavery. The petitioners expressed their appro- bation of the procedings which Parliarpent had adopted to lessen that evil, and hoped they would continme to persevere in the same course.-Ordered to be printed, MIr. BEAUMONT presented a petition from Onendon, iNor- tbiumberland, against negro slavery.-Laid on the table. Mlr. SYKES presented a pedition from Kingston-upon-Hull, as wc understood, against the abovebill. Not seeing the right hon. gent. (;lr. Huskisson, with whom the measure originated, in bis place, he would defer his observations on the bill until the second reading was moved.-The petition was laid on the table. Sir U.BURGH presented a petition from Carlow, Ireland,against the warehoused wrheat bll-Laid on the table. Sir. H. PARNEJL1 brought up the report of the commnittee on the Holyhead roads, which was ordered to be Printed. DIMINUTION OF SALARY IN PUBLIC SITUTATIONS Mr. VWV, TAYLOR presented a petition from certain clerks and other official perswns employed in the collection of the excise, com- plaining of the reduction of their salaries, under the act of the 2d of ee. Ill., and praying that their case should be taken into con- sideration. Sir J. YORKE said, if the prayer of the petitioners were com- plied with, it would have the etFect of rendering nugatory the whole. somc act which took away part of their salaries. Howvescr merito- rious those officers might be, lie must call on Ministers to resist this application. If they gave way to it in orne instance, they must in- evitably give way to it in all. He trusted that, on this occssion, Ministers would adopt " steady" as their motto; and not suffer themselves to be talked from the duty which they had pledged themselves to the public to perform.-Ordered to be printed. Mr. IVIABERLY presented a petition frorn the curriers and tan. ners of Feversham, against the hlides and skins bill.-Referred to the committee on the bill. Mlr. NORT H presented a petition fron the manufacturers of Bal- Iycorbett, Ireland, against the repeal ofthe bounties on coarse linens. _Laid on the table. SCOTCH BEER-TRADE. Mr. KENNEDY moved for an account, showing the total value of all kinds of beer on which duty was paid in Scotland, from the 25th of October, 1822 to the 25th of April, 183, and from the925th of October, 1823, to tie 25th of April, 1824; and pointing out the increase or decrewse in those two periods_-Ordered. IRISH ASSESSMlENTS Mr. GOULBURN presented a petition from the gentemreit of the baronies of Onagh and Arogh, in tie county of Tipperary, complaining that much loss was incurred in consequence of persons who collect. ed the assessments not having given available securities. The regular assessnients of those baronies was 1,0001. a *year, but the pe. titicners stated five instances, since the year .81, in which the ye. assessments, occasioned by (defalcation, amounted to 3,8801. Lord ALTHORP observei, that this evil required animmnediate corrective. In future, no person tshould be intrusted with those as- assments who could not give the most satisfactory security. Sir J. NEVWPORT bore testimony to the extent of the evil, to which he had before called the attention of the house. The petition was then brought up- The petitioners prayed for an inquiry into, and a remedy for, the grievanmc. 5Mr. J. GRATTAN stated, that the remitedy entirely rested with the grand jury, who ought to see that.the security was good. Mr. GOULDURN said, when the individual holding the office aware that he was solvent, and produced securities of good repute, the Frand .ury could not interfere. Sir J. NEWPORT said the great evil aroFe from the circum- stance that when the period for which the securities wvere bound had. expired, those who should see that they were regularly renewed fre- quently neglected that duty. Mr. T. ELLIS said the beat wav of curing the evil would be to insist on lansled instead of personal security.-The'petition was laid on the table. FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS OPINION. . Altr. RUAiE rose to pesent a p-etition fro cerhaWinibhbtants of IBevrerley, 'Yorlahire wt o comp2bned of the mAnrin-fv1 idiin rvidu mwere punished for expresng tleir ownreligio opid i. oe *bMU4Whe is ig-talonimentieits of 0thers Thme basn geat. tlw,AU .-th o t1sat~ Man's opinions on thi It subject were mot Vo. l'rtwy64 eIt were fordm upon him by_ tle portion of ivfe_r. matf?"whil e,--b* linbleil; and ist ;gs unjust toQpInilj tidW adgiL for htd t p what -ie t6 th'see 'to"-be xf I n t princfple, hi: s k eor _ O rtesety. Uoobil as Ithe dut so p Steliand *iu peti oin g ., d i lncs iutter of religismi r co e es he Othe which authorized the partislsi4n iti ror 'fhI pCtitiOp41W trdeesad to lat retue table. COMBINATION LAWS. Mr. HlUME prtsented a petition from the sawyers ot MVanches'ter and Sford, prayint for the repeat of the combinsiraiti laws. RIDES AND) SKINS IMr. HULME fitsent&d a petitiona stnst the itles and skin bill frorn LTHOR P preof Aberdeen. aO p ESTONE prceented a sri- ituts nm thte cf rriers of Sarum. oer. LA WLEY prteented a petition from Birmingham, gaiinst ngreg slavery. Mr. HUMSE prested a petition frohi Kineardine, prayeto an equalization of' thse duties on Scotch and Irish sipirits brought to LodATOPFOD prereHted a petition from Enniserthy, against thB'r binh offoreign bonded wheat. petintion in conseqocem of the late discvery of abuses in the takingof turnpike tolls, moved tabpt returns should be laid upon the table, conitfIng the sounts of l turnpike trusts in Sngamd and NVies for tE1t yed aoe th act the la3d. Ge ro. I v hlrd ALTHe r esenf a pi th om certain Separa- tists of the count dur ing tohe s ewierev fo the obti. atlao of taiesung co The noble ld ntenden tht ther cu be no da tager in ac t esi of the pet;tto who, ee pt with regard to thires were s distic srokiny of the systemh of Englouanaste Qakgnxdervs w re. ual raie,b ther. don po the pnetitin, which was ordered to lie on t'he table. Lord ALTHORP pofginied a itution from the inhabitants of arnd y ingr ancashire, praying trust that thvrheuty ncthedo-might not-bee ided from therbeefitofthe County som courtsemillb hAlso a petition fomld pth aubli~s of Catterick against the beer bill. Sir W. Wspresentedf4 c tea,vetii waginst the beer bill fros o the CORN LAWIS. Mr. CUIRTEIS moved for an account of the several persons who haA made returs of sales of corn in the markets of sondoe, Li- verpool, and Boston, dui the pzx weeks previous to the 15th of May next ensung. Tifhe hronurable gentleman stateo, that he moved for the papes in question with ia view to check certain most fraudulent practices cor nnfcto ith the striking of the averages. A sy,ttemi of colourable bargai.n sAnd sale was regularly organized, by which the nominal prices of'giain in 'the utaketa, and conseque-ntly the declaration of the averages quarterly, was almost controlled. Such practices, it was unnecepssay to say, were entirely subversive of the intent of the existing c r laws, and plaed the fair dealer, as wel asu the grower of gmin, inf a situation of great uncertainty and danger; and he (Mr. Curteis) trusted, that when the docu- mentsmoved fi vwerebeforethe house, somecoursemightbe hit upon whihe wourc fteld ast ya r,o findin raltonther ieethtnoia swle3 b a S LB HBRIDae the warml supported the motion. enc e t he averagenh a thtiyeraghe tw most mischievous to the Eandedinterest; and on one. occasion it ha4 nearlr su~ceedcd so far as to oaesion the opening offthe ports. Mr. HUSKISSON, if toe requested the hon. member for Sussex to withdraw his motion for awhile, certainly did not d,o so from any dist iton to withhold information on the subject of the corn ave- rages, but beause he wisned, before the papers were ordered to as- cetain how far it would be passible to obtain them. For himself, he had not the slightest doubt that the practice alluded to did exist; and lie agpeed fully in the mischief and danger which it producedp but there were circunistancex ofb ifficty in thf wxy of putting a as " to it with which the house was not, perhaps, acnuninted In fthecourd e of the last year, fi nding rason 'to believe that nominal sales had been taking place in the corntmarket, with a view to influ- ence the averages, he had thought it right to call for the bilit ofpar- cedIs of thp paicular salts, and also for the bools of tle deal- ers. Now, hi was fro e to pra, that he had not a dth st that the bbigains to which he allsd wes gr colourable mard entirely con- trar to the spitnrt ofthe corn laws as they exuistea; but, on laying the boof and cers obtained before the lUac dvibrs of the Crown, those aviseres were of opinion that the trnsactions, as they appear. ed,were erfectly legal. In fat, there was this obstacletostopping the,practice.-4hat it was next to impotiuble to fix a bargain or sale as - coIeuable." In the cases which had been examined, be had found allthg regular frms preservedi i they ewmrtraht i betvfeen persons of substthheeand sbarycter; rnd thuigh e PaD no amubt as to what the truth was, yet it was uite igiurssible ag mfake it out. In acty, i own opinion (the right hon. gentliman oontinued) was fOunded upon the statements of practical dealers, as well as legal men, that It would be almost inpracticaile to prevent this sort of jobbing, the interest in it was so grat; and tie market (so long as the present corn laws continued) would Ie constanay(he.thought) kept, for the FIZ wERk, previols to the tating the averages, n ar sate of fever and uncertainty, most prejudici both to the groweir the consumer, and the regular trler. A 'general disposition aonIDg those wh were most interested in the state of the corn laws, to be- lieve that they required revision, would be the readiest mOda of chick,ong the deeptive bargains complained of; and he hrad elt greaty leaure o ue ran} a petition from a parr of the empire pe. culary aiv t th mrit o te abjct fremu eestin arianst toe adtcthersyse of Baforee importation, guavoroftehded bya sufiient pro- air. aJ, Wi IAVfm S moyed that certain pape relating to the Coaunt of Chanery should be printed.-Ordered. Mr. V. ZGERA LD presened petition from the Separatists of the county of Carlow, in Ireland, praying for a relaxation of the vernmcnth compee& to the taking of o ftrts. lir. S. Ri moved for abstract of the presentments made by grthd juries in Ireland during the year for2contrdered. Mr. . WOTLuY prsened ~pettion from John Hardy', Seq., solicitor, toeachuityfnd. Ther ehon gtbegvenpported the prac!rtioaers sin cunty sourtspeeundeclring the sew nsi; a h a e petontfrom the bthexrusof Brasdfmord yorshie,ifavor oft thear hides underwkinsbil alsodapeition, from th tbatner, h iers, and others, o befield, CLERKS' ANNUITIES. Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a petition, of which he- bi given notice two or thme timue, from clerks in the civil departtnents ofGo- vernment, complaining that against the fair principles of justice, and the conditions under which they were admitted to serve the pub- lic, and against the provisions of an act of 1810 they were tas,ed to the amount of 5 ,er cent, upon their salaries Or contributionis to- wards the annuit-futnd. The hon. gentleman supported the peti- tion in a short speech declaring the sense which he entertained of the injustice sai impohIcy of the act of two years ago, under which this unequal tax was levied. lfr. CALCeRAFT eLd, thAt he took no blame to bimself, having from first to last done al that he could to prevent the house from adpi h measure. Ile hoped, as the inconvenience now began torbe a btithat Goverinent would lose no time in taking oif so so preive a burden from the shoulders of those who were so little ae to bear it. ar. CANNING had never approved of th e measure . it was, in his view, unjust, becuse it was a particular tax upon particular tersona, e wth whoeill emolumh len , G ov ment could have no more righttos tamper than wirmthti these ay of the arm anidvy, or any other mchs mofersoes. It wasm also unwse, bteaeswe it operated to the changinglof the toldenure,b gradupo wich to thep taxed had been eacchstomed to provide Itr wentr to gethrem greater claimr to reired allowances thany shouldever be allowedsto the suboriinate clerks of the departments. Now, however, the uischief was done ; and he was not prepared to say that he could devise any feasible measure for a stubstitute, though it would be very agreeable to him to hear that his right honourable friend was prepa with one, The CgnANCE nLOR of the dlHoQ UER wasnc ot surrised that his right honourable friend neai him retained the opinion which be had formerly expreed upoern the subject. For his owe parr, he had concured in the propriety of the mieasure at the time of passingc it, Undoubtedly,it tseemedahardship tocBntrol the emolumentsof those who were ill enough paid already, considering their merits and geavicte. But the house must look at the sttuation ina which the questionstood. Informertime the payof the officers arose from fees iuch more thgan from salarie. Those fees were very lucrative, and enabled the,holders, by gradual promotion to thchighest station in eaheofce, torovide fo their ownretirementon the approac of ageMand inFirmity. ThereN wee algoamino sreculires at the dispotal of Gvernent wit whih lng ad ueful service was f'requently rewded. vcryharduaflly bthfees adu inecures were so reduced, that tovernmengu hadnot shouffibcientmeans fr that purpohe. The prac- tice then altered to the granting of retired allowances; which cer- tainly did grow to a bulk which justified the complaint and inter- ferenceofarliament Government being thus reproached,y ad re- cours tob oeactoflc l, bhiclit was ceertainly not intended tocon. vey aprescriptive right to retirTdallowance. But then each department wa eta lieryto settle the retired allowances ofits servants, and a new gnrevance sprun w out ofthti- fwer, epseoially in the Customs and Excise, which again provoked the attention of Parliament, and the enarctment of which this petition complained wa the result of the whole. Jt was nDot exactl thesort of hardship which had been described. The payers had tileir quiid pro quzo in the claim to re- tirement ; and as to the exclusive nature of it, there was a regulation of the very Sane sort which required con,tributions from the'navy to the chest at Greeniwich.- AVir. F. BUXTON spoke aginst the regulations of the act. It seemed very hard, after the iredcions which had been miade, that those regulations should be continued, by which the clerks werc ex- pected to continue their respective services for double the period fornierly required, and all the recompense they received in the way of spernnutionallwane, ws fom ioney which they paid out of teirown ockts. e hd noconexion whiatever with thepe titiners of hom e kew bt thce, nd toseonly by sight. H tretedtha thircas wold,hoeve, rceie he consideration of the overmen, an tha thy wold e restored to the same foot. 10 r. PEEL4 bore testimony to the ability, integrity, and fidelity of phejeenons who had been spokse of. At the period of his coning into otihce as Secretary of State, he found that the ncasnre, against the effect of whicti the present petition was directed, had beenzgreed upon by those gentlemen who were to be his collragqes. He saw that it was intended tooperite universally, and he could not. nmuch as he wished to 4o so, claim an exemption in favour of the persons who were to be employed under him. Hie trusted( however, the house would recollect that it was alone responsible Ftor this measure, which was forced upcn the Government, and to which they could not object, as it contained also a proposition to lower their own salaries. lie beleved that the measure was carried more out of defetence to the expressed opinions of the house, than to its own substantial tnerit,s and he therefore thought that any alteration in it ought now to be left to the prevailing opinion of the house, and to the public Mr. GRENFEIJ tsaid, the sentiments of the right hon. gent. had his warn concurrence. ile bad long been of opinion that the Goverumeut of Iers,from the highet to the lowest, were very in- ade uately uid. -Ir. W. TAYLOR hoped that the former decisions of the house would not b sskffered on the present 6castibn to prejudice the claimtt of tlkcpetgoAise,b\t tat juatice w dF d6c ne to a very deserving clisagof pescn8, wlsmad endured iery ci'rable privation by the neaslure a,ini^nidni they coenplased. 'q: -. Mr. il. SUM3NEiR laid the regulation h ;;rnsadopted at T1U period whpo a.very- Ii{i&ery bav been raissed faeimcsivrl retrench. *ment IU this aalntt i einstanee he tb-~i it had bseen listened to X7tsuwae gan unjustly- hlr.rHTJMFZsaId,that he was sure tbaibowever censstrable the~ lioue mlghthbieither to have amsd- or to-have complied ih tt er ~fOr unhverlderkens4Et iii. bo4ixable gentle anehl ts..s sytsQi share 0f' tbe blaisre to - s f; fo!r BO had aDeriC" fox rsincEmest of a ny sot, or to ismy-amut. t . - # . - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.c (A aUg94 The gtoAune which the mieasure lisa been adqsIted was thegret Increasewhwbi hudbbeenoid w nnr4 list andtb~ mgpt Of the expense which t he eona. try. ~ere ~ed~ that when the =pgo~ baa, bee rbposed,the lattrt 919leryyobjeeteil to the derlr4 if pu4sUe Ulin lef w~ott nypro'iio aftei age khouId bave incqApCltafa &~et52 forfrthr srvie. pon that ocasion thei hou*e agieo ftat some prohtao iobei made for thm "and the regulations alluded to tlfeh l use, d byew%Vir. lurne) had himself pmrot se y hchsit whasicaef h ~~ofanofth~fficr before he APi6,tm,fideo h *yeseocers ~~~~Qud he entitled to, or hiave th oupeal~e fd,hewhole sums that he thol be conid hid s liapersnal property, re, toahs repesnttivs. Th supe rqlutio system,- therfo, Daan h atre of a tonting,ap ~ ian aeabnftO tothe Public, but to the persons by 4host contaibu_. tionsitwas keptup. He theught the houseoughtnot to'sufferiiwlfto, be rli2 Cwa3 witli by any fsnciedlbealit.J~ and to becatosn unidoitng what had beert dotie on very due deliberation cTuhteorewavis one griev'ance he believed existed in the public office which really demanded alteration. fie meant the practice w Mchwprevailed of taking clerks who bad servwed 10 or 15 year, from out of the extra claas,sas vacancies occurred in'thesuPerior classes,anrd insteadofgilring them such rank and salary as their services entitled them to expect, to put thern on a fo-oting wthyope clerks. This,he believed, was a much greatter adhpta h lee by th'e petitioners He had befure teomieddtattedsrbtion of 'the superannu- ated fqAnl should hdietdbsoeprnsa ucth~e clerks themseltves, as ws tecsatteasInaHoe;nd he hoped that if any alteertuon were to b made thatreuaos would be adopted. Mlr. HUSKISSON would not hatve risen, but for the remark made by the hon. mnember for Aberdeen, respecting the increase in the superannuation list. That such san increase had taken Plaoe at the period to which he alluded, was very true, buxt nothing could be more easy than to explain the cause by which it was produced. Underthis former stystem, which prevaljed with respect to Govern- ment offices, large fees were pernitted to'be received, and thero**as a considerable number of sns4ll sinecure offices, whichi were at the disposal of those who had the direct iou of the various departmen-ts. These two sources furni!shed a provision fo. the clerk:? when they were no longer compoetent to the discharge of their dutieg. Parlia- ment, hovwever thought fit,he believed vory wisely, to abgolishi the fees and teoidots to whih he allud ed but no substitute was then pmovided forteheaged clerks, Those who had the direction of them had the painfulalteritaive ofeither seeing the public duty iU.performed,or of dismissing thoso who had once been highly serviceable without 'the meactns of existence at an advanced time of rife. It was necessary that thiey shoula be removed, and he asked if common humaLnitv did not demand undersany circumsttances,that some proviaion should be made for such persons P T'his would account lbr t'he rapid in- crease of the superannuation list soon after the system 'as establi.sh.. ea ; and the rapid mortality which followed it was the best proof he could give that the persons gidmitted deserved the aid which was afforded them bK it. Before it was imputed to the Government of th&t day, that t ey had been lavish or wastefuJ In distributing this fund, it should boe known that the average number of years that the persons on the superannuated list had served the public was twenty-nine; and die averag sxi'pend was 941. per annumn. He would ask a Aritishi House of Commons whether this was, a wasteful disktributio'n of the public money ? He admitted t-hat the total anmonnt was a large one, but it grow out of the circumstance he hiad explained to the satisfacrion, he hoped, of the house. Whatever the house might choose to do, he was sure that no persons could be more gratelRed thana himself and his col- leagues, if any fuirther reward should be given to the services of those persons whose merits and &delity they had a daily opportunity of witnessing. He did no sav-h~4e did not suppose, that any thing the house inight do would dimli,ish those exertions; but it wag not too much o su ethat its liberality would encourage and increase dtei H eined giving any opinion~ on the subject, but left it to the discretion of the houise. Sir F. OMMAANEY smorted the petition. Sir THOMAS ACLANI) also expressed himself in its favour and hopedI thAt the hon. mtember for Yorkshire would be encourages by the favourable reception of the petition, to bring the subject again bef4re the house at an early period. Sir T1. BARING expressed a similar wish. Air. T. WILSON had not hesitated to take his shareintheodium which attached to the measure maow complained of, because hke thought at the time it was carried the interests of the country re- quired re-trenchment in ever Practicable shape. He shoulcl now be no less willing to give the alrlerntionx which had been suggested his fullestoonsideraticut,and his support, if upon discussion it shouldlap- Ir MrX- S said, that two years only had elapsedl siacee tht house was ursin? a rapid race of retrenchment and economy, and he begdt stwhat reason had been giveni why they shiousd. turn their bac-ks upon that course and pursue a contrary, extreme? Ho cautioned the house against indulging in a liberality which was un- called for, and trusted that the subject wouild be fully and delibe- rately discussed bQefore any alteration should be determined on. Alr J AMES said that when the ministers had taken off the as- selsst taxe, he shoDuld be glad to conicur with them in the proposa to reward more ampiy the public officers. Until. thaLt proof of the public prosperity skould be given, he thought the intended liberality wudb limed. Mtr. S. WiORTLEY said a few words in reply, and concluded bty an i,ntimnation that he should probably at an early opportunity intro. duce the subject in another form, to whiich course however, he didnot pledge himseLf...The ptition was then ordered toL be printed. THE SUGAR DUTIES. M1r. W4HITIVORE rose to bring under the consideration of the house, tbesubject of whkclh he had given notice,-saamely, the draw- backs ont bounties which were paid on the exoortation ot sugar. His object wras to procure the appointmient of a select committee, to con- tidr the question, and he trusted that he sihould make it appear to the house that, such a measure was called for by peculiar circum- stances. It would be necessary for him, at the outset, to show how the affair stood. In the tirst place, the Wiest India interest pose-es"e & monopoly of sugar in the English market again.st all other coumntries ix which suma was produced, with the. exceprtiou of the Eastt Indies. But the sugar which was imported from the East Indies paid a duty of lOs. more than that which was imported from the British WVest Indies. The sugar imported fromn the West In. dies paid a duty of 27s. per ewe, when the pric-e was unider 47s., and of 30s. whlen the Price was above 47s. thierefore the suim which con. stituted the difference between the hsixh and low duty was only 3., which he considered too little. It happened that when sugar was ex- Ported to the continent, it received a drawback, not commensurate with, but greater than the duty which it had on importation, to the extent of 3s. A bounty of ,%s. was therefore given on exported su- gar. This fact c-ould not be denied; but that was not the whiole of the quesuion. The sugar which was exported was in a refined state, and received a drawback of 46s. In the process of refining, a consi- deorable quantity of molasses was necessasrly abstracted from the iugar, and the weight was therefore diminished. For instance, 1121b. of sugar yielded only 561lb. of refined sugar, when prepared for the home mnarket. BuAt he' wes informed, that when the sugar was in- tended for exportation, it was not sufficiently redLned, hut a considerable quantity otf molasses was, left unextracted from it. The consequence vwas, that instead of 1121b. of raw sugar )ielding only ,561b. of refined sugar, that quantity generally produced from 0lOIb. to 651Ib. The price of miolasses in theo market was fromn 25s. to 30s., therefore there was an enormous profit on the exported sugar, which, as lie had shown, contained several pounds of niolasses which ought to have been extracted. After reaching the oDntinent, the sugar un- derwent another Process of refinement. to fit it for the market there. It would be a materi:al point for the committee to consider the effect Produced upon the home market by the continuasce of the bouinties. The c naumption of sugar in Great Britain, in 1823, was 1,150,000 cwrt. The exces which was exported was 560,000, upon which the, gublic paid a bounty of 168,0001 The principle of abolishing bounties, had been adopte recently with regaird to Ireland aad Scotland, and he lhad yet to learn either the j~ustice or the poiyof conitinuing themi uponm the oNportation of sugar. ieasaware that he should be told of the distressed stat of tlke West India interest. He ackniowledged the existence of that dis.. tress, but he felt that it was his duty asi a member of Parliamnent to endeavour to point outthe causes which psoduced that result, i-n order that it might be ultimately reinovedl. In consWidring this part of the question, it was necesarv to ascertain whether the distress whi chxiste in the WVest Indies was of a temporary or of a permna. neat nature..whetlier it was likely that it could be jemoved by pal- liatives, or whether it had its root in the system itself upon which the IVest Indies were conducted, and whiether it would not be necessary to chance thiat systemi altogether, before any good could be effected. [He would read to the house, from the spap-r whichi he held in his hand, statements -which would prove th~at the distress in which the Wtest Indian interest was at p reet involved was not of a novel but of a permnanent nature. In 1792, r. Bryan Edwards said, "4 The great niass (planters) are men of oppressed fortune, consigned by debt to unremitting drudgery in the colonies, with a hope which eternally mocks their grasp of hiappier days, and a release from their embarrassments." In 1785, Mr. Tobin declared, that for " one planter that lives at his ease in Great- Britan, there are fifty toiling under a load of debt in thie colonies." A reprt of a commiiittee of the House of Assembly of Jamiaica, 17921, contained the following passage :--" In the course of 20 years., 177 estates in Jamaica have been sold for the paymient of deobts; ;W eseathavesbe been thrown up; 92 are still in the hands of' creditors - 80,021 ext.- cutions, amountinK to 2-2,563,7861. sterlinF, haye bcehlodged in the Provost's office, in the cour-se of 20 years. ' Ano;hcr report, dated 1804, aftetr despribing a state of great distress, states that "a fa ith- fli detail woula have the appeaxiance Of a frightful caricitturo." Again in 1807, aniother -report contAinied the following Passage a- "The sugar estates lately throwrn up, brought to sale, and now in the Court cf Chancery in this island antd in England, amount to about onc.fot;rth oT tite whole nuumber in the colony." Simi- lar facts, were stated in a report which wan made in 1807. All these testimonies proved, that with regard to the WVest Indies, dis- tress was the rule, and prosperity was the exception. E~einc had proved, that in every age, and in every part of tlhe woely,auch state of things inevitably produced the depopulation of the country in whichi it existed. Thie reason why such a result had not occurred with respect to theWvest Indian colonies was tbiis-~that thyero- messed by acountry abounding in riches and caia, tprio,owic had been continually pouring into thlem. The ra? as fteds tress f thie Wes~t India initerest was the system of slave-labour which prevailce in the colonies. 'What slave-labour was always more costly than free labour, was a statement tlot madeby him tor the first time, but ne the truth of which had long ago been allmitted by every persop who lookcd at the question free fron the prcjqdice which at. tached to those who were connected with the colonies. Take the cases of the nan rwho worked by the job, the man who worked by the day, and the man who was compelled to work by thle overseer of lhis parish. In the first case, the workman having a direct inter- est in tie work, exerted all his strength and ingenuit towards its accomplishment; irithe second case, the quantity of work done would be much less thanin$bf. former; and in the iast case, neither thequan- try nor the quah Iid bear compaison .with the two 6rst cases; Many celebrat f'#rike had tracedithe decline of Itaty with respect to rural aimira to the introductisof slave .labour. The same causes univordlly produced a declin 'is the value of land. It had been reiiarkad by an intelligent writer, that the moment he passed the line which separated the northern part of the United, States of America in which free labour existed, to the wesktrn part wbere slave labour prevailed, he perceivul a striking dilTerence. In the district where free labour was employed, hie be. held neat and comfortable farm-houses, lands in a state of ferti- lity, and managed with every attention to economy, on which all profits depen4ed. In the other-districts, directly the reverse was the caie. Nature herself drooped and sickened under the influence -f.; slavery. The large mansions of the slave.owners sapearea here and there, but they. were surrounded by the sordid hovels of the slaves- the land wa sil culdtvated.and a general appea ane of wtcedness mei the eye in every directon. It Was a Matter of mnuch uimortance to conbider the difference in the vaiue of land whete dave,hs did xna did not9prgvaiil In Pennsylvania, where lbogrwas free, the hn.d wa ont.elrd her than in Viruia, wheredavay aed; i4h asality of the so}l being theame -.s both stata ahfiand is the vup* ps pet of which free labour petied5 estates. Xrd St4el being to be foutnd ink the *hnaemi,r Abes *ad gnSt ml ot lmOtiPftenv -mind, r thev Jud!~W, belonge toiald0, whoreide i a tae wqr a1ve~'Prevailed, ermtnin5d upen manaed.At he imohe rried nBabada, 790, his estste mn sisedofl,OOsre; te umer flaeswas 28, aid the brh in he hre yers recdin h~d ben15, and the deatta 'irthsf gro court; and Oxvredteslvs into copysbl -snn t. Haen rent for land, adrcvigwesoimtlaour. Iii foryeaaaa Nr1 coemedtlsebiert we 41,',;, camof aatbrtb men 4 sad wh adu the annual net proi of the. esatnastr d 1wors~ tnd aother part of th su-c.M ihe opoetat in a sta, of freedom the efottfmnisd hte hite or a't would inevitalply ledto the awhmultto o ator blacks and to ProsPerity. The fiat instac to wic oe wnaiona di the attntitwonof tebhosewasathe iliteresun gcolbe iWhWd drect On the. hobes of Afrcsr.usnaely, Sierra LiDene, the eat imed whose pultion, wGa efipnpce of the sanx Aeerpsts oi' o afomdthe slavepsalci h W est Idies. public ProsperitY. preva ed in 'that colony to ML degree which could scarcely be paaleled inL any other paLrt of the world. In order to ptove ths,h would state the amountt of the cusionia of Siesm ide one for several yeas st In 18l2,they ee192. n11,l2~ rI 1820, 0.73.;m ,,3141.; in l18M 4761L.; and i'A3q~. Of 1I3,93, If the reann qure f12 hudbs r. ductive as 'thotse which had precede it, . reul wul b d thto 82 Thll sttement proved that the exten~ta. e ofSiera Leone was rapidly increasig. The colony ws also M. inon a considerable internal trzade. At the present aornmet, idl vi ual wee in the h abit of coming to tfie colower, even fromn th, Niger, to barter thieir gold andl other commroditiesot6 the productsof Greet.Rritsin and the restof Europe. The next document to whilh be would refer, related tciUayti, and was drawn upby the Secte- tary of State of that Government. It proved that that gtate wats makaing the most rapid advances in national prosperity In 82, taenumber of ships emplotyed in the i.oe,~ amounted to 1,13d; the tonnage to 121,474: the goods imored to 13,178,900 dollars; andl the duties patid to the state on the iypose ation werel1,477,178 dollars. The numbercof ships emlyei in h export triae for the same year was 700; the arfopnt of tonaaw Was 78,769 ; the total value of exports was 9,239,700 dolrs, sand the duties paid to thesxtate on exportation amouinted to 13642dla The hor. member then proceeded(asweunderstoo fosrthe o.um berherspokein solow atoneas to be nearlYinaudibeirithegalc!)to rgue the necessity of appropriatinig Part Of the revenueaisn from the duties on sugar in promotingthe work of ernanepatioen wthe WtVest Indies, without which, he considered tat they never could enjoy prosperity, He did not wish toprPopos any violeretchangein the lpresent system. In his opinion, if such a mesure were so applie,it [would faciltate in a greater degreta n te wjhoIdb v-ised, the gradual emancipation of the negroes, and the ultimnate eg.. tincti6n ofsaUveryin the colonies, and all* ofasy stern which was, from its nature, pregnant with distress. He was aware that ther wer- various other ways of makinf suwh a diminution applicable ta the same end. But he oiere.y touched incidentally upon these topics as -points of discussion in the debate, and only prayed the house to go into the comm;ittee for the specific objectof inquiringr inito the o eration of the sugar bounties, andi to ascertain how faur the view lKe haLd taken coincided with the pratical tefect of the present system ; and then suppoing the fact proved tas he asserted it would be in the result, alhe subseqLuent consideration of the apelication of the amount thus ascertained, would be, as it tuh, entirely at the disposa of the committee. He could not bu~t tre~ink his pr'inciple would be estaiblished in the end, for it was consistent Iwit the feel. ings of the present Government, inacodcewtthnwcrn mnercial priniciple of feee trade whicthyidanioe,ndf the general establishmnent of thatbetrstmofplcwhh had received the concurrence oftalanebH onlddb nioving "1 for the appointment of a slc oiire oiqa the operation of the bounties on the exportation of sur" On the quetion being put fromi the hair, Mlr. HUSKISSON rose, and said, that as so large a proportion of his hon. friend's speech related to the qrct question. of slavery, and to smalla cortion to that specilc question which his notiee of motionL ralinolved, he hoped it would not be expected either of him or the hOun oemakadmr epcally without nofice in the con. siderstion of the larger and regarly introduced SuMb'ect..one which they would, he was convinced, thintk with him a better nkot be discussed incidentally, but upon a regular notice, such as would en.- able the house to meet so portentous a discussion in the mnanner which best suited its gravity and importance. (Odiesofbhear.) In- deed, he was of orpinion, that far better aud more prudent it would be, for all practical purpose, to leave the question of the slave.. trade, as Parlament had confided it by mutual consent, in the hands of the Executive Government. (er er ihre-. spect to what had fallen from his hon. friend on the subject of the relative value of compuilsory labour compared with free labour, and then again with labour by task ani~ by day, he was also dispoaed to- abstaina from following him, and for the same reason he had already ven-..namiely, that thi was not the fitrnmoment for entering -into. C nidrton, introduced as it had been in an incidental maia.. ner. He thould therefore oonfine his observations shortly to whit had fallen fromn his hon. friend, respecting the labouxr of cultivation in the WVest Indics being carried on by human beings insa state of slavery, and that the consequence was the destruction of the real in. terests oftpr,,to,wela the piser inflicted upon those uider them. Hishon. frendl had alfirmned thte general rule to bce, that distress was the habitual condition of WVest Indian property, and prosperity the exception and he had illustrated his position by travelling through the historr for forty years, frmm the time of the prosperity arising out of the great convsusion in the island of AiL Domin?oe to the distress whbich followed when the high excitemtnt that eto that prosperity had ceased, and the re.. vuilsion in valuc its necessar, attenidant, became feLt. Now, taking for a iomnent his hon. friendspeie,ta t emgnealcotifti(ii5 of West Indian property was one of distress to te extent be had described, without assuming, however, his cause for that condilaon- a cause, however, that be nmight admit had necessarily its operatioic ton crain degre, in producing the effct ascribed to it--still he coutld notgoalong with himinitheconcluaion which hehaddrawirfr6m these premises, or in thinking that the mneasure which he propose would ad.minister the relief hem ina'ed H'sbnual fhen [ was sanguine (and he wished to G4~i oe could be realized that there might be created a great facility, in the manner he ha poiated out, in congverting comnpulsory labour into free lab-our. Bu t must not they look beforehand at the consequences ? Alad when thev did, must they not see that before theme slutary advantages could he obtained, all the aids of improved moral intelligentce, all the mnotives to good action, must be w'ell iniculcated and well uader.. ttod eforewhchhey culd hope to secure for the slave-population that entwiha ch'aonge in their condition was intendedt to realize for them ? (Hear.) His hon. friend hadsaid that the duty was 27s. ort each cwt. of sugar, and tbst, fromn the nature of the bounties, the draLwback was ave`raged upon a duty of 30s. ; he had also argued, that when the priior was 479., the duty was taken osly on 37s. lHe had also sad that 1121b. of sugar, as imiported, would mnake odll. of refined sugar fior homae consumption. Hie was convinced that if his hon. 'en hadlooked with mnore care into all the details of caculation which theo subject involved, be would find himnself much mistaken in many of the essential p-arts of his. estimrate, and necessarily wrong in the conclusions which he drevw fromn thenir. Besides he had overlooked the fluctuation between the bounties and the duties which had occurred, as the law stood, during, the period which his calculation professed to3 cover. If, thercrelhr these errors had entered into his, calcultions, why caLl for their cor., rection by the appointment of a coimittee? It was adryimatt-er of fact, capable of elucidation without taking anysuch course; and ben so, lie saw no parliamentary ground laid fior the appointmient of a comnmittee which in the presnt state ofteWetldian interests was calculated still nmore. to embarrasu those engaged in the L-ade, ink all their fiscal and pecuniaryvarrangenents. He must repeat that the sense of Parliament hauing been aleay expressed upookn great [geeral West India question, and it being understood that it wan left to the contsideration of the executive Government, andl intrustota to their responsibility, it would be ins the exercise of a soudet dis- cretion, ztot to deal with it by incidental debattes either in or out of committees, but to leave it where he thought it could be enost ppac, ticaly viewed. (Hear, hear.) Witen,hi hlon. friend sad th~t by. his proposed arrangemnent a fundl for emiancipation mnight bqe veated amuounting to no less than 1,100,0001., he again gratl o'Terhok the mark, for the wAcual amount of the diffiereuce to which he hath%&l. Iude,a paid into the Exchequer, did arot exceed frmi 1~00,001. to 150,0001. Taking, however, that part of his heo. nourable friend's propostion, he miustan tha it *ought to be propouinded in a digfl'errnt shiape, Ittatcaneinke 4con- dition of the alavc.po "atOn.wVg t e ef1 tdby ic4 esr of ecoomy cons! ere in.the.cway his oorbeladptiate let it be broadly put to'alaet,wehrtywreesyowol what miht be dtiedasltr chneadtopyuhat amount in cash to temses oprhs h mniaiz fsc A nuMberof slAVes.A owa hshnuaefin a said re- spectng the prosperityfSeraeoeudradietssemdi he mean to say,' that'wa was practica i teducation, icpie and internal regulations and iiniproveirnents of ansal olnys placed, and so paid for, could be pctically introduced, adwl equal practicaliffty Managed wbzen transplanted and e)4 to the condition of the lVest Indian population of slaves? (Hear.) The distinction between the twok ","s was obvious, and need not be further argued. That thq comnmeria policy of great Britain was altering, was indeed clear. His liciour.. able friend could mot be unaware of the immerncse ch&. hchw now working in the old comimercial system of the world,bhyith4"!,'i* centevents which hlad occurred, and'were stil'DIn progress, in tihe new world. A great commneeqW~itcontry like this, mustraieq r le6a adapt her policy to a state of things which arms in theb lr~r' important colonics which-hadseparated themselves from teit-% vious stat. of European dependence.. New interestsAwrem cretv~; and still creating, and England must regulate lkev Poly accor&in.p to cirCUMstanCcs, many of which were not yet fully developed. Thai again was a point of discuWion %ipta whipli he thoasbt is would be iniproper for him in'ieWetally to embhark, with li: honourable fredio hs et rshe trsgted - tht hdhota wouldagreewithhim, h~t here as nnecesatyoup a comitte o acerai fatawhih wrenotindispute tsrnoreps.. fal toawken,ie~osie' nd lamn l4hitwere more prurdent noe, The TMOR, rnotion res V. that they werempec- u1pon. facts, andI ofered to deniain oa committee. With rmo pect to he iffrece f te aout o pamets in the Excheqper-.4t didnotuibuenow tbaec ause zI t hes wn e tpaid into the Exche. u er, th at thereforen it w as r n o eq ral as ou t of the p cket of the eon - s e rn S , l ie wo u ld n o t,e r t ain l y , p ress h i tb e r o tio n ag a in sttb e s e n se . of,.tz the house.riaet d ldedfrtiee Th motion ofa then Put, &ad ne.atived without adivision. SALT DUTIES. Mr. WODEHOUSE matobringffvw'h-is peromeisedmotiwn fon the continuaree of the salt duties; an to enable the hous toascertAi, if somne more substan tia rlef coo] inot be obtained for the coutry. ley the eawinutlori efan~equal amounltin soaeothe art of the pub. 1k burdens He was aware that the grea ob4kactie whichhad been uyged, asait -eres ieIsmine, to the oonalderatior 6N:tiasaubject, Was, that the faith .t PaLrliaheent stood pledged ;for te -en-.. tire abolition of the salt duties, (Ljoud ciies o. ' Her" He lroed that -be was not prticulaly prone to an; 1idt Pfus5pdnd,pbq1lt ~ eue, d he could not cee ,iow*Idiblukj! ;.O.faloe ol~ehl-Pmlan&ws~*~leie of amaint Wat to measue its conauct by the ~lresebt view If what it were beat for the true interest of the country to ado1Pt, under all the rcir staxuces of its ~Pmerst alituationl. Their duty. and the express order of their institution was. at the fifme'of their being called upon to ebnsalder aproposition, to sce what it was then best for the Interests of the, country to adojit. What, then, was the best course for them to take. udreivig circumstances, respectitig the remnainaing salt duties ? lie was aware that the question was not so much as to their present 2ifooUnt, as it WMs to the operation of the excise regulations which strillaccotnpanied thepayment of wbat remained, and the particular inconveniensce of which was felt by the class lIssable to bear that in- Ilicti("dcries of"'Hear.")ltmiuee be obvious to all thatthe details Of sueb a subject must be left practically to the individea1s engaged in the regulations. He had therefore, for information upon that point, efedto Mr. Canr, the sol citor for the Excise. (Cries of" b har" fforu the Oppodsion benches.) H e begged to informn the hon. gentle- mem who bad ijut cheered his reference, that he (Mr. Wodehouse) We)a no advocate for these severe Excise laws, or their accomparnying Penalties; but be muse declare that both the one and the other ought to be considered with pattience, and not w-ith passion. IlIe beggedI to call the attention of the houste to what had been said hr Mlr. Carr, whett Le was -xamined respecting the operation of the Excise laws, beforeP the committee on erimininal law. Mr. Carr, before that com- mittee, hadI justly laid it down as a principle, that if low duties w-7e Imposed, low penalties would suffice ;but that it was the im- Positioni of high duties which necessiarily led to high penalties, and t'hes,in ther result, to thedesperate schemes of smugglers. Some- thintg had4 been said of the anomalous difference between the Eng- lish and Irish salt duties, and an argumhent for the total abolition baLdbeen founided thereon. On that point he would merely remark, that as they bad now a consolidation of the Englislh and Irish excise boards, some regulations mnight be made to obviate the Objeetion to which he alluded, consistent w ith the fair re- tenktion of the remaining prtion of the duty. The amount ofdutY' retained was 800,0WI., and the exp-ense of collection, esimitted at65 p-r cent., was 16,0001. In viewirng this object, he ha caled for returns showing the state of excise prosecutions in Englan and Scotland during the last five years, and the result esta- blishedI his opinion that the diminution of the duty had repressed smtug~gling in the article. In the y,ar 1819, the geineral amount of =C:se prostecutions was in number 1911, penalties recovered from '3.0001 to 4,0001. In the Year ending the 5th of January, 1Ot2t, there Were 23 prosecutions, and the pensalties recovered were 631. The state of prosecutions actually ornginat ing with, and carried through the Court Of EXChequer Was, in 1819, 37- prosecuttions, penalties recovered 2,4001. In 1824, three prosecutionst penalties recover- ed 1IL IUs 8d. (A laugh.) In Scotland, in 1819, there were 1l~ prosecutions, and 4,0001. recovered. In 1824, 212 prosecutions, and 6041. recovered. The smauggling in salt was, therefore, almost wholly dlone away with; a-nd he meant to have demonarated the fact by a deputation o f smugglers to the Chancellor of the Exche- quer. There wats one man in Chesthire who used to employ 25 of teemen during the high duties, and he had discharged them all when the tax was reduced. He knew from what he could learn from the bakers of iNortwich, that no smuggling in salt was carried on there; and the honourable miember for Yar- mOuth couldl say whether he bad or not received similar informiation rePecting the fisheries at Yarmouth. On the subject of the fiche. rdes, hie was far from wishing the adloption of assv nmeaure calcu- lated to discourage them ; but it was well known thiat their fisheries could not be carried on to an indefinite extent : sometimes the fishi would come, whens the maen or the nets were not there to catchi thnem ; and at other times when the nets were spread, the fish w%ould Tr t,ipproach them. There was not the same quan. tity Of flu seonsumed here, as there Was in Catholic countries. The nex:C_~int to which he should allude was the quantity of salt used for toe purposes of agriculture. He was aware, that undler the existingt law, it was necessary7 that a person using it for these pur. Poses soulWd give a certificate, stating the quantity which he used, the land on which he used it, the sheep, or other cattle, to whichi he gave it, end the result whiceh he derived from it; andi that, if he fail- ed to give such certificate, he was liable to a penialty of 40s. a bushel for every bushel of salt h'e consumed, or to a penalty of 1001. fer the wholequantity, atthecdiscretion oftheBoartl 0t Excise. He had no ol,- jection to do away entirely withi the necessity of giving this certificate. With regard to the utility of salt for agricultural purposes, he had no hesitation in saying that he believed it to be much magnified. The ho'nourable member for Cumberland could, however, af- fordl to the house the best information upon that subject, as heC had frequently employed salt upon onie prrtion of his estates, and never employed it upon another. He understoodi, that nor, only the members for WViarebam, and Shaftesbury. andl Bodmnin, were opposed to his propwsition, but also all the members of the western counties and that. too, chiefly on account of theadvantages which the crmployment of sa'!t conferred upon the agriculturist. Therie was, however, onie gentlenian connected with the western counties, whose support lie expected, and whose vote he wouldi rather have than that of all thne other genitlemien of' the western counties put toge,ther. (A laugh.) That gentleman was the hon. membier for Westminster. (Hear.) On a former taighi, that hon. mnember had said that it would be of the greatest advantage to Ire- lind if the house vote4 to her service thre million of money which it was going to expend on much worse objectsi and had added, that he should feel gTeat satisfaction if the 5N00~00. whichi the house was goingL to expend on Fsew churches, the 300,0001. which wn destined for the repairs of Wiindssr Castle, and tude 200,0001. which was derived from the salt duties, were to he transferred to the use of the population of that distracted country. He inferred, from this declaration, that the benourable baronet v;Faa In favour ot the proposition which he 'was now going to submit to the house ; for he could not see how the bonourable baronet couild derive 200,0001. frousi the salt duties, un- lesst he were prepared to continue thiem for a longer paeriod. The bonotajale member theu proceeded to contend, that the repeal of toe existing salt duties would be of very slight adranage to the country. He was aware that Mr. Parks, when lhe was asked by the committee, " what new manufactures from salt, or otherwise, are likely, in your opinion1 to originate from the repeal of the salt dii. ties :?" had answ~ered,' tZ hat it was imnpossible to ascer,'ain the num. hber of new rnannf1cturr that might rise upon the repeal -of the sale- tax ; for such an impetus wo-uld be given by it to evory branchof trade, tIrat all the maanufacturers would see about examiininig in what man- ner itcou,ld be best applied to their particular trade." iNow, ifMIr. Parka would cGme forward, antd state any particular trade to whichi the recent reduction of the salt-duties had given the slightest impe- tus, he worald immediately wi,hidraw his prseset motion. (Hear.) Nay, if the hon. member for Bodmnin would lay asiide hia affection for pileharda (a laugh), and standing forward in the dignity of an abstract man (,another lauxgh), woulA assert, that the fistheries had derived from that reduction the benefits which it was continually asserted that they had derived, lie would alaso withidraw hIls p resent mrotion. (LoudI cries of "hear.") The hon. member for Shaftes- bury had declared to the same committee, that if the salt tax were repald, the smiall housekeeper would use' 141b of sale whiere he hd frmnerly used one; and the larger housekeeper would use a bushiel where he had fornierly used a gallon ; and had further adaed, that if salt were used in the Potteries' which he promised it would be, were the tax repealed, the health of the workmen, who at pre- sent were ni:uch liable to paralysis, would undergogrt improve- Mnent Now, without meaning the slightest disrespecto the hon. member, he would ask, was there any man who could believe this statemernt to its full extent ? Sir T. Bernard, speakting;of the salt- works at Northwicls to the gaine committee, hiad said- "V'estibulum arste. ip-sum, prisrisque in faucibus orci "Luctus ct ultrices posuere cubilia curo,, Pallentesque habitant maorbi;-_. meanin by the pallente: moerbi, the 147 excisenien who were sta- tioned there to prevent any fraud upon the revenue. Really, when honourable gentlemen talked in such a sttain, and when they in. veighed upon the demoralization which was likely to arise from the conitinuance otf the small duties upon salt, he niiust say that for his life and soul he could not understand thiem. (Hear, hear.) Ile then proceeded to argue.that if these duties wore continued, the couni- try migh.t be freed from the window-tax paid by small houses, anid supported his proposition by references to ihe lsa. popula: ion returns. He had been told that his mojion for their continuance was inadmis._ zible, because a, positire pledge for their repeal had been giv-en to the house by the members of his Majestv's Gloverninent. Now that proposition he for one could not understand. He would illustra-e what he meant, by an example. He had maintained, and he di(l still maintain, in commnon with his M1ajes,y'qAMinisters, the policy of keeping up a sinking fund. But he would ask whethier he louse vote for the sinking fund remaining a%t 6,000,f001. in perpetuily, in cuse it should appear to his Maliestv's Go,vernmsenit upon mrature de- liberation, to be expedient to0 aiminish the amount of' it, and to relinquishi a part of it to dimninish the amount of tax- ation ? Certainly not; and yet the house andi the Ggvernment were as strongly pledged to support the sinking-fund at 65,000,0001. undler all circumstances, as they were to repeal the remaining salt-duties. His reason for moving to continiue them was, that he gdid not con- sider them to be in themselves objectionable, and that he wished to keeP uP a source of incomne with which little or no fault could be found, and toget rid of another which was liable to niuch and serious abuse. Contending that it was th6 duty of honionriableenembers to leek at taxation, not as it affected their particular constituentis, but the country at large, he called upon thens to juidge of the present mnouan, not by their private interests, hut by its general merits. The honourable mnember concluded by mnoving two resiolutions, of whjich the first declred the expediency of cotitinuing the present duLties upon salt, in order toeal i aet' oenett ie niore effncent relief to the country in the next session of Parliamnenit by the remission of the duty on windows of' low rateable houses. The second resolution was read by Mr. Wodehouse in sio low and hiurried a tone Of voice as to be inaudible in the gallery. Mr. CARTMVRIGHT seconded the motiorn, contending, in a .4hort speech, that the machinery by whichi the salt-tax was collect- ed waslworked at a smaller expense thati that by which tbe win- dow-taxl was COlleCted ; and arguinig that the consumrer of salt would benefit very little from the reduction of it that was now intended. Before the SPEAXEncoauld put the first res,olutionl from the chair, Sir F. Bvaawt RD rT.Ai CALCtAYT, Mr. Ct?aRWEN, Mr. D. (fhIL- BFET, the GRA)XCZLLOP. of the EXCHQIER, atid one or two other members, rose to address sthechoxu's.e,Eamid the cries of their re- spective friends. The SprEA.,xE intiuiated, that beforeche coultd dettcrmine what member had the priority, ihe niust subniit the ques- tion to the house.Ini consequence of this declaration, thc hionour. able rtie4t&', whose natres we have just mentioned resumned their Th;e SPEAKER then put the question fronm the chair. The CHANCELLOR of theEXCHIEQUER itrimcdiatehv rose, amid cries for Sir F. Burdett. He had to aPologize, he said, to the gentlemen on the other side of the hotuse, ?fopeting in la en- deavours to present him-elf to ie..i-t,20.u beoete;bt itanidg in the particular Situation whic; hid a hemi bite the oXwn, he was anxious, at this early period of the debate, to de- clare, without reserve, the opinio whilch be held with regarelto the present motion. Honourable nbers, he was sure, would do him the jostice to recollect,tthat in the statement bichl he madeto them, in ttee commencement of the session, he haddistejnWr infonned them that if, in the course of it, there shoutld be aL general feeling that the cessation of this tax ouzbt not to take place at the time fixed for it by law, it would not be a difficult task to find other means of affrding relief to the public; but that he was of olinion that, aa far as bimself and the Government were concerned they -were pledged--(great cheering, and loud cries of hear from ail sides of the house).he repeated, thcy were specifically pl-edged to aLhere to tle law as it now stood. (Cheering repeated.) lie would net go so far as to say that Parliament were pledged to stand by that law, if it were good that that law should be repealed; or that the Govern- r lent were bound not to repeal it, if the repeal of it were either good or useful to the public. He had, therefore, on formerly addre.eirdg the house, quahified the pledge which be had gKien in this manner_ that there sgould be a strong getieral feeling in favour of this tax before he ventured to propose ite continuance (Cheering.) It' therefore. any Buch feesng had- been excited, he Should have felt himself at liberty to support the motion of his hon. friend, the mem- ber for Norfolk; for he asTeed with his hon. friend in thinking that the objections to the continuance of tbe 2. duty on salt had been veryrmuch over-rated. Indeed, it was his opinion that the consumer would not be at all benefited by the repeal of it. (Hcar, hear.) It was Imposible, le centended, to retain these two shillihgs duties witholta rretdIrtig the exemptions. (Cheers.) le was indlined to yi that if any tax on sia wire coxtinted, it ought either to b much inwre thau 2s,or to be reduced to so low a rate as t6 dispense entirely with the exemptions; for it was out ofthese exemptions that all the smuggling, perjury, and demoralization arose, wbich ren. dered this tax so generiUy objectionable. (Cheers.) Thounh -he believed, that if the exemptions were removed, and the duties low- ered, the produce of the tax, from the greater consumption given to the article taxed, would be as great as i was at the present, he was not prepared to say that there was no objection to the extinction of these exeinptions. The lion. member for Bodmin would, perhaps, tell him that the evil created by these exemptions was not COrp n- sated by the amount produced by. this smal tax-a sum which he believed was somewhere between 200,0001. and 260,0001. The ques- tion *hich he had to put to hinself was this-is theadvantagevwhich the public income derives from this tax, su-fficient to justify me in retaining it against the indisposition of the honse ' (cheers,) which certainly was much greater than he had previously' expected. (Hear, hear.) Ilis hon. friend had told them that he anticipated many objections to his motion, le had told them that he reckoned among his opponents not only the hon. mnembers for Shaftesbury, and odmin, and Wareham, but also all the members connected with the western counties. 'This was a decision that there was nn strong feeling in the country in favour of this tax. (Great cheering.) lie therefore felt, that after the pledge which had been given, not to continue this tax, unless a strong feeling were manit'ested in its fa- vour, Government would not be justified in continuing it a noment longer than the period fixed by law. (Immense cheenng.) Think- ing that there was no general feeling in. favour of' the tax, he had not waited for the expression of the opinions ofthe house ; but had come forward at the earliest opportunity, to make a suggestion to his hon. friend, which he trusted that he would not be indis- posed to adopt-namely, to withdraw his present motion. (Great cheering.) As liis honourable friend had coupled his project with another, to which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could by no means accede, he should ha-;e been obliged to make the same re- quest to him, even if the house had been inclined to listen to his proposal about the salt duties. (Cheers, and a cry desiring Ilr. Wrodehouse to withdraw his motion. If his hon. friend was not disposed tz accede to his suggestion, hi must conclude by moving the previous question. (Immense cheering.) Cries of " question, cestion," were then raised, mingled with a loud call for " Mlr. Urodehouse" from all sides of the house. In the midst of them, Mr. WODEHOUSE rose. After exprcssing his astonishment at the observations which had just fallen from hWs right honourable friend, he observed that he thought that it would be unfair in him to withdraw his motion, as In bringing it forward he had made many personal allusions to hon. gentlemen, whichn might, perhaps, have rendered them anxious to obtain an opportunity of re pying to him. A great cl,amour took place, and repeated cries of-" Vithdraw the motion." hlr. WODEIHOUSE, we understood, expressed his willingnes to withdraw the motion, if the seconder of it would consent to such a measure. AMr. CARTWP.RIGHT had no objection to have it withdrawn, as he had seconded it with a view of ascertaining the feelings of the house upon the question. The SPEAKER then put the question-." Is ityour pleasure tbat this question be withdrawn ?" and took the sense of the house on it in the usual way. On his announcing that the " Ayes" had it, the house cheered loudly. SALARY OF THE JUDGES. ilfr. R. MIARTIN, after a speech which was rendered inaudible in the gallery by the contusion prevaleht in the house, moved a re- solution of which the cffect was, " to increase the salaries annexed to the great offices of state, and to high judicial situations of the country, so as to render them more adequate to the labour and im- portance of the duties to be discharged, and more worthy of thejus- tice an(d liberality of the nation." After Mr. RI. MARTIN had finished the reading of his resolution, a pause for some moments ensued. The SPEA KER.-Does any gentleman second the motion ? Another dead pause; no reply, and a half-suppressed giggle throughout the house. Mfr. R. MARTIN was understood to say that an hon. member had promised to second his fnotion, whom he did not at that moment see in the house. Mr. PEEL said that he rose as an officer of the Crown; but not to second the motion of his hon. friend. With regard to the first part of his hon. fiiend's proposition-namely, that which related to the increase of the sal4ries annexed to the great offices of stato- he did not mean tosaya single word; but with regard to the second, lie might be permnitted to state, that the propriety of increasing the salaries of the judges had recently been, as indeed it deserved to be, under the consideration of the Crown. The emoluments of the judges were at present insufficient to support the situation which they occupied in the country, and fluctuated in a certain degree according to the fees which they received. Now lie thought that nobody would dispute this proposition-that the emo- luments of the judges ought neither to be precarious, nor derived from uncertain fees. The public interest required that such an ad- dition should be made to the salaries of the judges as wouild induce men in the prime of life and of mental vigour to de-ote themselves to the discharge of their impomiant duties iImr. 11OlROUSE state that hc should feel it his duty, if the suggestion of the right hon. secretary should ever be submitted to a committee, not onlv to oppose it, (and this lie should do after con- sulting the sense ol many of his hon. friends in the legal profes- sion.) but also to submit another motion of very considerable im- portance to it, if that suggestion were adopted-namely, that in fu- ture there should be nopromotion on the bench. (Hear, hear.) He would not state his reasons for such a motion at this conjuncture, but he had a motive most undoubtedly in entertaining the intention - and he re peated, that if the suggestion of the hon. gentleman on the other side should travel to a committee, he (11ir. Hobhouse) would not shrink froin explaining that motive. (Hear.) How painful it would be for hiui to allude to any personal character on such an oc- casion, every member would concur with him iii feeling; but he should discharge the task lie had imposed upon himself, however re- luctantly, unless the recommendation for an increase of salary to the. Jitdges (in which the right hon. gent. seemed disposed to join) were accompanied with the sort of provision he spokc of. (Hear, hear.) He merely threw this intimation out in order to give the right hon. gentleman fair warning that the proposition which had been just subnitted to the house, come when it might, would be far from meeting with no opposition. (Hear.) He knev many hon. gentlemen who thought with him on this subject, and it would be found that the ieneralitv of the country concurred in the opinion. Al r. LE YCESTE R was favourable to the increase of the judges' salaries, and he hoped that addition would be accompanied with a provision for a third assize. M r. R. MARTIN, on the suggestion of his right hon. friend, was willing to withdraw his rnotihn. (Hear.) AMany of his hon. friends would have been disposed to second it, and hld promised himn their support, but they were not now in the house. A fter a few words (which were not audible in the galiery) from Sir J. WiROTTESLEY and Mr. BANKES The 5PEAKER suggested, that the discussion had alreadv pro- ceeded somewhat irregularly; and that as the proposition had not been seconded, there was no motion before the house. The conversa. tion then dropped. COUNTY COURTS BILL. On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, thc house went into a com- mittee on thlis bill. The noble lord then stated, that though upon the compensation clause therelhad been some difference of opinilon among lion. gentlemen, the sense of the house seemed to be in its favour. He must admit, that since this clause was first suggested, so many newr claims for compensation had been brought in, that it would be proper to provide some limitation. At present, however, he would iiiove that thlis clause stand part of the bill. Upon this the tommittee divided, and the numbers appeared For the clause, 55 | Against it, 49 1 Majority, 6. Mr. SCARLETT moved a clause for the purpose of exempting thn Courts of the county palatine of Lalicaster from the operation of the bill. Lord STAN LEY opposed the clause. The clause was, however, agreed to, as were some other clauses, without a (livision. The house then resumed, and the report was ordered to be brought tip to-morrow. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned At ItALr )'AST TWELVE O'CLOCK. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TnURSDAY MAY 13.