Manchester Meeting.
The Times, 1824-06-19T00:00:00

On Thu rsdaylast a3leeting or theChamuber oWpnmrrer4,eat Man chesitcr, enrmpoAii 'of lise lpninci'pal mnerdhant and msanutfactu-ters, wras held at the Exchange, for the purpose of considering the pro- priety of recognizing the independence of' the States of Souath Ame- flt.The ibilowing was the requiisition in pursuance at' which the Elecingwas onvned.hisneedessto apprise those who are ac- quante wih te etenivecomercaland mnanufatuzing interests of Mnchste, tat he sgnaure afixe tothe re2uisition are thseofth mstwelty eranil mn n henorthoat Enland:- To-te Vce..resden of he hamer of Commerce andt Mlenui factures. "~~~~Manchester, June 2, 1824. Cc Sir,We request you will call a special general meeting of dtle members of the Chamber, to take into conside ration the jiresent.Te- latlons of Great Britain with the Governments ofrSouth America. *VV'e are, Sir, your mnost obedienit servanits, "S. PHrLLIrS, " THtOsAs SHARP, - SAMurl., MATTHEWS, "GEORGE FRASER, "tJAMEIS DREmatNE, - WM. GARLNETT, "GEORG-E JON-ES, "CUAS. STIRLING. JO HN C EItl'EN DATE, JoHNX -ENNEDY, "TItOS. EOOTHItAN%~jan., 'K. C. HAUITER." Tlhe following wras the answer of the Vice-President : "In compliance with the Manchester, June 7, 1824. In cmplince itlitheforegoing requisition, I dlo appoinit a special. general meeting onf the subscribers to the Mancehester Chamn- her of Comrnerce and ManufaCtures..to be held at the Committee- Room, in the Exchange, on Thursd,ey, the 17th of June instant, at 11 o'clocic in the forenoon. "LGEo.I.W. WOOD, vice-president, "G. E. AUDREY, secretaty." Attwelve o'clock Jo0MM Kax:rNLu,-E4q., was called to the chair, and the Chairman briefly stated to the Chamber the object of their meFeting. dilr. Wloon then -rose. to open the business of the day. He re- gretted, he skaid, his inability-to dlo justice to the great and important object whichi they had met to discuss, andt which it becamie thiem, after the recent example ot'Liverpool, to consider witliuwict further delay. 'rthe Cause Ot' theC recognized indlependlence of SouthiAmerica, ascnnected with British, commerce, involved a question of the highest MOMent. (Hear hear.) At first sighit it might perhiaps be said, that at Chamlk~ro? Com'merce like thEirs, excluded as it was by One Of has re;nulations from interfeting withi political discussions, was disqualified from coming forward upon suchi an occasion as the present. Uponi reflection, however, it mustbe obvious to them that this question was as muich commiercial as it was political-indleed mnore so--and that they wouldi be overlookinig thegreat commercial object of their association if they permnitted theimselves to remain any longzer in silence upon a subject so inseparably connected With their vital interests. (Hear.) Thecy had,for the four yenrswhielihaaelapsed since their establishiment, refrained from involving their Chamnber in partv or polthical topics; they hiad preserved amiongst all classes ofthie interests confid'ed to them &Ttruespiritof commercial feelingunmixed '#1 h any party spirit ; and he trusted they wvould lonig continue to pursue the sutue wiseq and salutary coairse, for by it they had setured thec zealous co6-operation ofgendlemnen possessing the toast various political opinions. lIe was quite sere that on the present occasion they, could nlot be fairly charged with deviating from so useful' and becomning a trackc. Whether this were, strictly speaking, a political qnestion, would mainly depend on the mode of treadting it, and he propose,d that they should purely trcat it as a topic in which their commercial inter'ests were necessarily and deeply hifvolvedl. -The dlistincrioii was, he thouglst, in the mode of treating the qutestion, and he repeated that he only wisihed to treat it as commercial men- wouldl treat any other general topic 'which their mercantile in- terest forced upon threir consideration. The question, looking at itim this manner, then wate-whlat oaight to be their commercial situatioif with the new states of Soath America?* First, wasitrge to acknowledge their indtWerder'ce P and secondly, was it epdet As to the righit, no one,,-he thiought, could doubt it: thssae had n-ow substantiUaly.worked! out their own indlependence ht ever mlighlt be saidl on the South American question deinre, by theco- rists1 defactothie matter was settled. (lear, hear.) Bluenos Ayres, 'Chili, and Colomibia, hiad establisihed regularly-formed a-nd consti- tutiounally acting Governments for some time past. Parties exer- cisedA the public authority in these states apparently w-ith competent Pc-wer, as well as with credit to themrselves and those for wvlsom they acted: and althoughi recent changes were in operatioa in Mexico, yet andt the mrmmlar establishments. preserved the exercise of their func- tions. In Peru, it was true, there was some hostile force still in ex- 'iiteaice, carrying on a species of warfare; hut the other states were displsyingpirfectlyorgaaized governments,and GreatlBritain was cr- rying onw-vith them most extensive commercial Operations. (Hfear.) It then, surely, to commiercial men, became amatter of the utmost im- p.ortance to aiscertain -what was to be their relative coanexion with t-he new states. ([lear.) The Director.,of the Chamber of Commerce bad taken this subject irto their consideration, and recommnneded the reLsolutions which wotild be submi:ted to the meteing. The views of -theirown ('sovernmnentvhad already been ably and eloiquently stat- e'd by M1r. Canning in his communications withi thep French Amibas- sador. Ele thought that as the Governiment hiad since acted utpon these principles, it was: time chat commercial men shiouMl feel the nc-ces,itynofdoiny the same. Hleconcludedl,amidlcries of "Hear," by r~ooin- thie 1st resolo ion, which was seconded by Mel. The- ma arwl. C A'or the resolintionis see adlvertisemzent) Mr. THo31AS TRBaov'TTs suggested the propriety of reading -the whole of the resolutionts before 'one was put, that the Chatiiber s1h,tild he apprised oftheir faill iuspor&-Thissuggestion was atlopte:!. The fi rstreSOlntion was then put, and carried unanlimously, (as in- deed were all the r~st). Thec 22, 331, and 4thi were severally proposed, seconded, and car- riu:l withoutt any accompanying observations. Mr. GREENWAY proaosedl the fitTi resolution, one in unison, he sail, with their warmest feelings. Thiey were all fully acquiainted wIth the sitnatioiu of British comenerce as connectedI withi the Southt Am:erican State,. It was theprefore muchi to thieir interest aiid characeer as comm-erciil mnen, to have the quxestion set at rest, inde- rawint f te dty o Grat ritin,herself a free nation, to assert the amefreeom or oher whohadalready achieved it for thema- .Mu.Coo senra reoared,tha hefeared thew were goin-a a little too ar ith he atte inolve inthefitlth resolution. DMIdnot the 'pc saingz resolution signify% strongly enough their wishes and feel- z:ugs a' commercial men, without precipitating, as they now seemedl about to do, the exercise of thepoliticalfunctions of the Government... acnarse of p'roceeding which they wrere, indeed, disqualified fram pur- suling hr their charter ? IVere they not by this precipitate step T,assinzfro-i their situiation as merchants, to whiat was purely poll- tLical mnatter ? When hie said thiis, he begged it to be unrdertood thatt he concurred entirely in their general proceedings, and was ,only anxious, that they should not merge their commiercial chiaracter 'with anvth ingrwhich miiglt be dteeme-d a political act. M)r. WYoon.-.Do you wish us to pause and pronounce no opinion uPon the expediency of ackniowledging the independence of South AroericaP? Mr. CONNELL replied, that his only desire was, that they shiould 35reserve their commercial character apart from a political onie, which be feard they wereassumning by thle 5th resolution, all being done commercially, as be thought, by the previous ones. This was what struck him at the moment. Mr.Woon3 said that nothiing was farthler from their intention. than que-stioning, the prerogative of the Crown upon that point whichl 1was purely political. Nevertheless he must contend, that as Biritislt merchants, st was competent for them- to pronounce upon a mixed quiestion, suipposing it to be part political andl part commercial, which dleeply involved their mercantile chiaracter and interests. It -was, when so placed, their duty to tell the Government thle view which they were enatbled to take of their own interests, andl to address that Government in becornting languiage unoon such a question. (Rear, hear.) 'They first showed the propriefy of their expressing a-n opinion, by setting forth the interest which they had in the re~- sult, and secondly they pointed out the remedy. They would he doing nothing withiout the latter ; they called, in fact, for noCthing buLt what the Government had alreadly professed a willingness 'a do of itsself-in plain terms, to do foimally what the Government 'badl already virtually doi?e. (Hear.) To show the view of the Government, andl what they hadl already done, he would beg lea,ve to refer to what the Earl of Liverpool had said ini the discus- sion of the 15thi of March, ~on Lord Lansdown's motion, when spea'king ofthie Congress at.Aix-la-Chapelle :...2 At thatperiodl, the British.Minister at the Congress renewed the offer of mediation, with thieknowledge and under the sanction of otherPowersi. Spain again evaded; and-whether to gain time, or for any other Purpose,he would notsayno ccptace asacqiesedin. After those repeated and unsccesfu efbre, i whch hiscoutry consultedl both her duty andthesoudes poicy th obigaiondevolved upon the Glovern- mentof ttedin to ur ssetia inerests-interests tllat were not oppoed o duy, ut wichcomrehededthe nlagedconsideration of wat ws du toourilvesand he orld" Agin,the noble earl saidl_-" The house would recollect, thta ta er eiod (1822), thle advisersofthec Crown submitted toPrimn easurewhichat once recoznized the dofacto, as opposed to the do jnreindependence sf the Sour]l American provinces. What did we admnit by that measure of legz3.lation? Lookcto the act of the 3d of the present reign, c.43 and your lordships~ will see, that by that very measure we. treated those provinces as independent states, having relaxed toaisds them the spirit of our navigation laws, and opened to thseir flag, if, return for our trade witli thiem, an uinrestricted intercourse with our posses-. sions in Asia, Africa, and America. By this act alone, without e1nestioninz the title between Spain and hier colonies, Great Britain coasideredl those provinces as free states do facto, capable of partici.. pating in a free trade with every portion ot' the world." His lord.. ship saibsequenitly, added-" TaKing into consideration the recogni. dion of their flag, a do facto ac'knowledgment of independeince, followed up by the appointment oF consuls, thie British Government 'having no interest or iniclination to concealment, determined to take a further step, which, as it regarded tise situation of the South Amierican States, was wortlh a thousand declarations ofacknowvledg.. mneatofindependence.. He knew it had been.-said that the intennions of te Poersof Euirope respectingr the Southi American States hadi been chiecked by tthe speech of thec Presidlent of the UJnited States of Amnerica. Whiat effect thkat speecht might have had, it wvas not for him to say; u whatever its effect mighit have been, hie felt it but jutietoth ing's Ministersi to declare, chat weeks before the peech rahduoe,ithad been distinctly communicated by them to te Goernmnt of ranzce, that withsout interfering_ with the rights of Spain, Great Britain would not see with indifference any foreign power interfere in the struggle between that country and the South American States-" Again, he said thiat " considering be- itdes the naturcofourconnexion wvith Spain, the character of that eventful struggle, in which conjointly with this count'y we had been solog engaged, the handsousc, the genthenianlike course would be to give Spain the opportunity of taking tie lead in that recognition." It then (sa.id iMr. WYood) the Goveniinent had gone so far, why ob- ject to a dfacto course of proceeding ? In vain wouldl they look to Spain for such an act; and on thesamne debate Lord Lansdown truly said, " If the noble earl waited till the independence of South Ame- ricA was recognized by Spain, it would never fall to his lot to an- rknowledge their independence-that glory would belong to some in- genions and eloquent statesman yet unborn, who might fill the nohle lord's place." - Mtr. CON-rNELL replied, that that was all very true, but as coin- mnerci l mcn Ile repeated, they ought not to precipitate the political conduct of tte Government, anrl particularly after their experience ofthc good intentions of Ministers upon this subject. 'What he had said, however, he merely threw out by way of suggestion, not mean- ing to offer any opposition to the resolution which had led to his re- marks. .ilr. WVoon expressed the pleasure he felt that no opp&sition was intended. It was quite idle to wait for Spain to lead the way in the work of recognition. The British Government must act for them. selves. They ought to remember, that 40 years after Spain had lost her provinces in Hlolland, she refused to acknowledRe their in- dependence, but mads a sort of truce with them for 12 vears even fter that lapse of tinme, on the express condition that the word " in- dependent" sehould not be inserted in the treaty. Mr. Wootd then id,-tliat hafgad toettl az ttpo lttbl proceed to read extracts from Mr. Canning's communications to, and correspondence vwith, the French Ambassador and.his Govern-. ment, to show thitin tiolat of -fact, the Chamtiber of Coqunferce swas only calligAupon thelGovernment to Zct up to their owu measures. The following wefe tle extracts to whichhte referred:-_ -r ' . "ThatAthe British Government were of opinion, that any-attempt to bring Spanish America again under its ancient submissino to Spain, must be utterly hopeless; that all negotiatiens for that pur- pose would be unsuccesst'ul; and thatthe prolongation or renewal ef war for the same object would be only a wastc of human life, and an ihfliction of calamity on bolt partics to no end. "iThat, completely-convincea that the ancientsystem of the colo- nies could not be restored, the British Government couldnnot enter into any stipulation binding.itself either to refuse or,todelay its re- cognition of their indepeRdence. " Tbat the British Government had no desire to precipitate that recogr.ition, so long as tlhere was any reasonablechance of an accom- modation with the mnother country, by which such a recognition might come first fron Spain. " But that it could not -wait- intlefinitely for that result-that it coaltd not consent to -make its recognition of thenew states depend- ent upon that of Spain, and that it would consider-any foreign in- terfi'rence by force or by menace, in the dispute-between Spain and the colonies, as a motive for rccognizing the latter without delay. " That the old pretensions- of. Spain to inderdict all trade with those countries - was, in the opinion of the British Government, altogether obsblete ; but thit -even if attempted - to be enforced against others, it was with regard to Great Britainclearly inapplicable. -" That permission to trade with the Spanish colonies had been conceded to Great Britsin in the -year 1810, when the - mediation of Great Britain between Spain and her colonies was asked by Spain and FBanted by Great Britain; that this mediation, indeed, was not afterwards employed, because Spain changed her counsel; but that it was not therefore practicable for Great Britain to withdraw com- mercial capital once embarked in Spanish America. - and to desist from commercial intercourse once established. "That ithad becn ever si-ce distinctly understood that the trade was open to British subjects, and that the ancient coast laws of Spain were, so- far as regarded them at least, tacitly repealed. "That in virtue of this understanding, redress had been demand- ed of Spain, in 1822. fior (among other grievances) seizures of ves- sels for alleged infringements of those laws, which redress the Spamish Government bound itself by a convention now in course of execution toaflbrd. "ThI:atGreatBritain, however, had no desire to setup anyseparate right to the free enjoyment of this trade-that she considered the force of circumstances and the irresistible progress of events to have alreadty determined the question of the existence of that freedom for all the world; but that for herself she claimed, and would continue to use it, and should any attempt be made to dispute that claim and to renew the obsolete interdiction, such attempt might be best eit sbort by a speecly and unqualified recognitienofthe indepeuderce of the American States, that, witls these general opinions, and with these peculiar claims, England cou'dnot go into ajointdeliber- ation upon the subject of 6panialh America, upcn an equal footing witlh ot er powers whose opinions were less formed upon that ques- tion, aud whose interests werc less implicated in the decision of it; that she thoughtit fair, therefore, to explain beforehand to what de- gree lher mind was niade up anid her determination taken. "'ThePrincedePolignac declared, that he could not conceive what could be meant, under the present circurnstances, by a pure and simple acknowledgment of the independence of the Spanies colonies, since those countries being actually distracted by civil wars, there existed no government in them which coutld ofter any appearance of solidity, and that the acknowledgment of American independence, so long as such a state of things continued, appeared to him to be nothing less than a real sanction of anarchy. The Prince dc Polig- nac addel, ' That in the interest of humanity, and especially in that of the Spanish Colonies, it would be worthv of theEuropean Governments to concert together the mcans of calming, in those distant and scarcely civilized regions, passions blinded by party spirit, and to endeavour to bring back to a principle of union in Go. vemments, -whether monarchical or aristocratical, people among wlhom absurdand dangerous theories were now keeping up agitation and disunion.' "c llr. Canming,without enteringinto discussion upon their abstract principles, contented himself with saying- " That however desirable the establishment of a monarchical form of government in any of those provinlces mnight eb on the one hand, or whatever might be thcdifticulties in the way of it on the other hand, his Governm ent could not takLe Upon itself to put it for- ward as a condition of their recognition." - " G. C." " COUNT OPALIA TO 15 CATHOLIC IMAJESTY'S AMBSASSADOR AT PARIS,AND MINISTEItS PLENIPOTENTIARY AT ST. PE- TERSIsuRG5I AND VIENNA. " Tihe King, our Sovereign, being testored to the throne nf his ancestors, in the enjoyment of his hereditary rights, he seriously turned his thoughts to the fate of his American dominions, dis- tracted by civil war, a2td brought to the brink of the most dangerous precipice. h'l'ese reflections powert'ully animate his Majesty to hope that tbme justice of his cause will incet with a rirnm support in the influence of the Powers of Europe. Accordingly, the King has resolved upon inviting the cabinets of his dear and inti- mate allies to establish a conference at Paris, to the end that their Plenipotentiaries,assenmbled there along with those of hisCatho- lie Maijesty, may aid Spain in atljusting the afrtirs of the revolted countries of America. His Majesty, confiding in the sentiments of his allies, hopes that they wilU aisist hiim in acconiplishing the wor- thy object of upholding the principles of order and legitimacy, the subversion of which once commenced in America, would presently conimnnicate to Elurope; and that they-will aid himn at the same time in establishing peace between this division of the globe and its co- lonies. " MlR. SECRETARY CAVNrIs TQ SIR W-. 'COURT. " There is no hesitation in answering this question. The sub- jects of his dllajesty have for mativ years carried on trade, and formed commercial connexions in all the American provinces vwhich have declared their separation from Spain. This trade was originally opened with the consent of the Spanish Governnent. It lhas eroWII graduallv to such an extent as to require so4me direct protection, by the establishmentat several ports and places in those provinces of consuls on the part of this country,-a mneasure long deferred out of delicitcy to Spain, anid ng resorted to at last without distinct and timely notification to theQ;panish Government. " As to any further st-n to be taken by his Majesty towards the acknowledgment of the &sfacto Governments of Aimerica, the deci- sion must (as has already been stated more than once to Spain, and to other Powers) depend upon various circumstances, and, among others, upon the report which the British G.overmnent maY receive of .the actual state of afFairs in the several Anierican provinces. " Bait it appears manifest to the Britislh Government, thlat if so large a portion of the globe should remain much longer without any recognized political existence, or any definite political connexion with the established Governments of Europe, the consequence of sateli a state of t1ings mnst be at once most embarrassing to those Governments, and most injurious to the interests of aU European nations. " For these reasons, and not from mere views of selfish p olicy, the British Goverrment is decidedly of opinion that the recognition of such of the new states as have established de facto their separate political existence cannotbe much lnger delayed, " -The British Governnment have nan desire to anticipate Spain in that: on the contrary, it is on every account their wish, that his Catholic 11agjesty should have the graceand the advantage of leading the way in that recognition ameng the Powers of Europe. But the ceurt of Madrid must be aware, that the discretion of 'his Majesty in this respect cannot be indefinitely hound up by tliat of his Catho. lic .Majesty; and that evens before many months eiapse, the desire now sincerely felt by the British Government to leave this precedency to Spain, may be overborne by considerations of a more comptehen- sive nature-considerations regarding not only the essential interests of his lajesty's subjects, but the relation of th.e old world witht the new. " Should Spain resolve to avail herself of the opportunity yet wvithin her power, the British Government would, if the Court of M1adrid desiredit,willinglv afftord its countenance and aid to a nego- tiation commenced on that only basis which appears to themii to be now practicable, and would see without reluctance the conclusior, through a negotiation on that basis, of an arrangement by which the mother country should be secured in the enjoyment of commercial advantages superior to those conceded to other nations. For herself, Great Britain asks no exclusive privileges of trade, no invidious preference, but equal freedom of commerce -for all. '"If Spain should determine topersevere in other counsels, it cannot btt be expected that Great Britain must take her owvn course upon this matter, when the time for takingit shall arrive, of which Spain shall have full and early intmmation. "Nothing that is here stated can occasion to the Spanish Govern- ment any surprise. "ln my despatch to Sir Cliarles Stuart of the 21st of March, 1823, whlicl was communicated to the Spanish (iovernment, the opi- nion was distinctly expressed that' time and the course of events had substantially decided the separation of the colonies from the mether country, although the formal recOgnitiOR of those provinces as inde- pendent states by his Majesty might be hastened or retarded by va- rious external circumstances, as well as by the more or less satis- factory progress, in each state, towards a regular and settled form of Government.' "At a subsequent period, in a commiunication made in the first instance to France, and afterwards to other powers as welt as to Spain, the same opinions were repeated, with tllis specific addition_ that in either of two cases (now happily not likely to occur), in that of an attempt on the part of Spain to reilve the obsolete interdiction of intercourse with countries of which she has no longer any actual dominion, or in that of the employmient of foreign assistance to re- establish her dominion in those countries by force of arms, the re- cognition of such new states by his Majesty would be decided and immediate." Surely then, after such declarations as tilese, it was time to call upon the Government to act decidedly. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CLOGG expressed p'easure at finding that the opposition to the oth resolution was withdrawn. In-eed, lie sawv no reason why the Chamberof Commerce should not speak the language of all other bodies on this occasion. He also bel,eved that those (if any) were misfaken who imagined that resolations like these would dis- picase the Government: on the contrary, he thought that ministers would be more pleased to have their arm strengthened on this ques- tion, by the open and uneqisvocalexpression of publicopinion,in the pursuit of the policy which they had already avowed. The 5th resolution was then put, and carried unanimously. Ilr. GRnExNvAY could not withhold his satisfaction at the una. nimity which accomptnied the preceding resolution, after the con- vcrsaton to which it had given rise. It erpressed the feelings which every conimercial mati in England wished his Government to know. There was no man to be found who did not wish to see the new states emnerge into that rank from which hithetto it had been the fatal policy of Old Spain to keep them hermetically sealed. There ought to be at once a treaty of comenrce. It was more becomzing the character of England that her act sbould be open and avowed, and not equivocal or compromising. (llear.) Mr. CRIPPEr.HAbr proposed, and MIr. FRA3ER seconded, the 6th resolution, whvich was carried unanimouslv, as well as the re- maiRing resolttions. Allt heremaining resolutions being now una- nimously carried, Ilr. CLOGG said, that it was the original intention to have embo- died them in a petition to the King in Council, but it was subse- quently thought better to present it to Parliament. In adopting the latter course, the first idea was, to requcst .Ur. Huskinmon to present the petition, as from his cominercial knowlcdge and his opinions upon the subject, his influnce would be desirable on this occasion. But theyaftlerwards thought, that as Mr. Huskisson was a cabinet mi. nister, it might not be expedient for him to take the part whicil other- wise he mightbe williigto takeontheoccasion. Uponfurtherconsi. deration they deemed it advisable to follow the precedent set by the city of London, and to intrust their petition to Sir James IMacin- tosh, whose head and heart were so deeply enRaged in the South Aimerican cause, and whose eloquence was so well calculated to give ffect to their petition. 1ey would recollect that-this was no party luestion; bat that it was still desirable their petition should be in the hansg of a menmber alcutltd, frf hig fAendg ania hlthit, to call the attention of the boQse so its merits& (HIear, hear.) A -A 3ongonversation aroein theC!mtmibef uponrt e preqentatiGn of tbhe letition ; -iftal mem'bArs with2rdit presented by tic ercoatnfy. ineniberi, I;MdS;anley4iad'' Mr, tlKickburne:; i1I agreed' iri be' ,ropriety,f'fixing upon'tlhe former, and& also-in-the hionourable Eehings aina .se&vicqg of thelatter; but -it was said that Lorl Stanley,,who hid been at the cownty races a few davs ago, might not be in Ldndon- at this mtinent, and that delavy at the'close of the session would-le fatal ; also that Mtr. Blacklburne was not- so-well,caleuiated, however in other respects desirable',oaccoah- ranythe presentati6n of--the petition with suitable observations. I It,was at length unanimously determined that the petition should be intrusted to Sir James-Uacintosh. The petition was a literal echo of the resolutions-adopted by the Chamber. Thanks were then voted to the Chairman, and the Chamber adioarned. - .YFA ~~ zrrw'7'1-r4- LN riAkrOU3l OF TnE INDEPENDENC\ OFh THE NEW STATES OF A,MERtCA. _