House Of Commons, Thursda...
The Times, 1824-02-20T00:00:00

iMtr. BLACKBURNE presented a petition from the parish of Cockerhanm, in Lancashire, praying for a commutation of tithes. Mr. DUGDALE presented a petition from Birmingham, pray- ing for some reduction in the legacy duties. Lord W. BENTINCK presented a petition from the licensed victuallers of Worksop, in Nottnghamshire, and Mr. DENMAN a petition from those in Nottingham, praying fer thc repeal of the licensing dudies. DU1IES ON COALS. Petitions praying for the repeal of those duties were presented from the followingr places:-From St. Colomnb, in Cornwall, by Sir W. Lsz3o.r; from Burton Rad5tock, in Dorsetshire, by Mr. PORT- stkx; from Wreaham, by a tnember whose name we could not learn; from Launceston, by Mr. BaOGnEN; trom Hedington, bv Mtr. WODEssOusE; and trom aparish in Glamorganshire, by Sir C. COLE. On the presentation of this last petition, Sir T. LETEBBRlDGB observed, that he would not object to the bringing of it up, but that he could not allow the opportunity to pss by, vithout stating that the repeal of these duties would be very injurious to the proprietors of collieries in Somersetshire, Mon. mouthshire, and various other parts of the country, who had em- barked large capitals in them upon the faith that the tax on coals was a perpetual tax. He trusted that the right hon. gentlemaan op posite vould take their case into consideration, before he consented to the repeal of these long-established duties. Mr. T. WILSON, in presenting a petition against the present high duties on foreign wines from Mlr. James Ward, a wine-mer. chant in London, called the attention of the Clhancellor of the Exchequer to it, as proving beyond a doubt that, in matters of re- venue, two and two did not always make four. It appeared from the statement of the petitioner, that in 1801, when the duty was 8s. 9d.per gaUon, the suir. paid into the revenue was 2,307, 0001. odd and that from the yearll21 downto the year 1823,the average sum paid was only 1,927,0001. odd, thoutghthedutywasnearlydoubled. He called UpOn the right hon. gentlem4n to increase the comforts of the people by reduciog these duties, and thus allowing them to have their wine at 3s. and 3s. 6d., instead of Bs. a bottle. Air. HUMIE exprcssed his surprise that thc right honourable gentleman opposite had not taken some notice of the observations made by the honourable xntember for London. He trusted that the r:ght lion. gent. would give them some information on this point on the 23d; and thatif he did uot then give the house some prospect of having these duties reduced, some hon. member would bring for- ward a specific motion for their reduction. He was convinced that bytaling off half the duty on rench vines, the quantity consumed would be doubled, and that the lo to the revenue would in conse- quence be inconsiderable. Besides, smuggling would be prevented, and by that means a sam of 1,000,0001. now expended on the pre- ventive serVice, would be entirelysaved to the revenue of the country. The oetitiOll was then laid on the table. Nr. HUDIU presented a petition against the combination laws from the journ erien printers of the metropolis. Mr. 0. LAMB postponed his notice of motion for leave to bring in a bill to allow perroits indicted for felony to employ counsel in their defence, which stood for to-morrow, until Wednesday, the 3d of la-.cb. BANE OF ENGLAND. Mr. GR.ENFELL said before he proceeded to move for certain accoints, of which he har given notice for this day, he thought it right to atste the resons which induced him to postpone, if not to forego altogether, the calling on. the house for the production of a t of the papers which he ha& originally intended to ask for. When he eave this notice in thiecourse of last week, he meant to ha.vc moves fer a return of tbeiam.ount of issaes of Bank-notes. At th.st time he was not aware that i-y objection would be made to the preduction of such a return. Ho,ivever, on the day subsequent to that on whichthchousc erdered a paperlsringingdown thearnountoflBank i.sues from April-last to thepresent tenne an hon. friend of his stated in his place, tbAt the lank felt considerable dificulty as to the pioduc- don of thsosi accounts; because, having resumed their payments in cash, they thought that those who demuanded accounts of this na. tarc night as 9rel1 call on any individual merchant, or banker, to tatetheaenountof hisacceptances, as tw call on them for the amount of theircuXrefltiislc5. He (Mr. (irenibli) could by no rlans S^:ith bis h? 8b1e freP4 Xs thia viewts of the subject. On ,be contrary, when he considered the great trust ana tonfidence rev posed by the public in theBank of EInRzd.Wbci be re=ollected the large suam of money *ith whicbh they were .intructed for the payment of dividends-whenf he looked to the,fact, that they vrere in j6issession of e5tclusive priv.i]e es, which belob 4d ..to to0 private establisiment; and,when pe albii to mind, that the wh4de revenue of the coulttry by act of rarllamment, might be paid into-thel Bank.--hen hconsitered aU thesecircambatances, he conld nbtaa- mit that the Batk of England rtood in the same situation towards the public as private baikers did. He felt, on the contrary, that it was the duty of that house to see, from time to time; what the amount of tbe Bank issues was, and to take care that the afrairs of the Bank. were conducted on those principles of prudence and saga- city which became a great publc establishment. As one of the papers which he intended to move for would bring dewn the issuec of the Bank to the yresent time, and as it might no: be expedient to press them at this moment, he would not call for that account, especially as by the stamp act of 1815, the Bank were reouired annuaUy, in the month of May to lay before the Stamp- oflice the amount of Bank-notes issued in the preceding year, in order to apportion the sum to be paitd in lieu of the stamp-Guty on their notes. There was, he observed,inthestampct of 1815, a clause, wiich provided, that when the Bank resumed cash-payments, some other principle should be adopted as to the mode of ascertaining what stu theyshould pay for whatever notes they might then issAc. Therefore, he supposed, as they had resumed cash-payments, that this question would soon come under the consideration of the house. On this account he did not menn to press for tne return he had men. tioned,and should confine himself to the annual accounts for which he had been in the habit of moving for the last 8 or 10 years-narnely, # an account of tfie ieposits or balances of public money lodged in the hands of the Bank of England, as the pobliobanker;" and next, "a return of tbebharge which the pub'acpaitdforwhatwas calledmanag. ing thepuiAic.Tdebt."1 With resgect to the balRnees of public moaey, thehouse would recollect thatte ount of those balaInces had bees for miany years betwe J ,000 000!. 'kndt I ,000)0001. tws,hw ever, true, that in consequence .of the diseu6sions whch hltad taken place in end out of that houFe, tlose balances had for soTme yen been reduced to about 4,-0-,0O01. TI,e return laid on the table last year, showed that the amount of public ba4nces in the hahdE of the Bank, on ant average of the three preaed&ng years, was 4?000,0001. Now the natuie of the services performed by the Jiank did not deserve so Large a remuneration as even this reduc - ba. lance of4,000 0001. aft46rded; The country was at present paying that bodv at the rate of 3 per .crit, for [5,0 00,001. which had been borrowead at the same time that they yetained 4,000,0001. of balances in theja haDds, which yielded them apnually, at three per cent. interest, 120,0001. He contended, that they wvould be most amply remiunerated for their services bY a pynineitt of 20,0001. per annum. Thuis, the public lost, and the dank gained, Idq,000 . by the systetn which now prevailed. As to the other bran'cl- namely, the annual charge for managing the public debt,-it aftorded a source of very considerable einoluiient to the BaflY. The amiouni lpaid to thein last year tbr imanagemnent was upwarus. or was readyv to admit that no establishment eouid trainsact, the psblil business wvith greater advantsge to the public than the Ban( did. but, whatever mighit be the pertfection with which this branch o their duty was executed,it was Possihle that tlley lru&h be overpaid and, aftex every consideration he Could give the subject, he thou h 2M1,0001. was roo niuchi. If the country paid the Bank- 160,0001l it would be quite stufficient. Here, then,tunder proper regulations would be another atnnual saving of 160,0001. It -w4s, be knew, con tended by the Bank, that under their charter, strengthened by th, act of 1110, they hiad a right to the sum niow paid for the usanage mnert of the public debt, and that it would be a breach Of faith to re duce it. A case hadheen somie years ago laid beforetbeAttotncysr" Solicitor-tGenera,l on tbis subjecrt and their opinion wras undoubted], in fisvour of the interpretation of the Bank. He. however, need no say that the opinions of' legal gentleman very mutch dlepended on th, mode in) whichi cases were drawn up. There were two points -on neeted with that Case, which. if' he hiad drawn it up, he would havy stated in suich a rmanner as would have given those learned persons difsrent viesw of the subject. HJe did not pretend to speak from hi; own knowledge of the law ; but he w,as fortified in his opinion or this matter by the concurrent opinion of averybhigh authority. Thi late Mr. Horm.er, when the act of 1808 was passed. 5tated that theni was nothing in the act itself, or in the circumataues6 under whiel thatL act was passed, that prevented the public fi~om revising the s vs tem, anid reducing the sum paid to the Bank for managing the publi:i debt. The hen, gentlemnan concluded by, moving for "a return of thn balances of puiblic money deposited in the bands of the Bank in thi year 1823; and also for an accounit of the sum paid for mnanaging thi public debt "or the same perioid." The CH'ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad that ii was not, the hon. gentlemani's inteniton to call for the account respect. ing the issue of Bank..notes, which he at first mneant to have cuiler for. Iliethouight it wouldbheexceedlin;glyhard on thieBank that the3 shiould he called on, as a mattert of Course, to furnish ani account o their issues ofinotes, under their present circumstances. He did no' Mean to contend that circumstances mighit not arise whlichl wJoul justify suchi a proposition ; but it c-ertainly was, not f-air to demaac suich a disclosure as a mnere mattter of course. Hie had no objectior to offer to the motion whichi the hon. gentleman had miade ; and thierefore it was not necessary for him to discuiss at any, leniith the topics he had brough-t befote the house: no practical resuIt coIdb produced, at the present mnoment, by such a discussion. The hon. memiber bad stated must accurately, that within the last few years. thec balanca in the hands of the Bask had been greatly diminished. and had been ntoade available to the public 3ervice. Nodoubt the la% whichi had caused the dim-inution of those balances was a perfectly fil andiproperone for Parliament to enact. Asto the charges forthe ma. nagsn!:ent of' the puiblic debt, he (lid not quite understand wheether ii was thec hon. miember's intention to call'on the house to express, b) any specific proceeding, their disapprobation on that point. He confessed it appeared to himi, that the opinion given oni this sub. ject, with respect to the power of the Bank to claimi as their righ~t. by the law enacted in Mrp. Perc-eval's time, the chiarges now Palo for the management of the debt, was miost solid and substantial He didi not, think they would be justified in forcibly calling on tlhe Bank, at present, to consent to any reductionl of those change-s Some years ago, a reduetion was agreed to, with reference to deb contracted beyond a given amount. That, however, was a miatte: of comipromise. T he Bank said, " So far as tile debt now goes. you have no right to take the existing charges from uis," and thal principle was admlitted. But it was stated by Government, on t.hi ~..i...y a,.,~~,jtnde. heq.s%,tLtJ'rtilsr..enefl part, lie thought, while the Bank Charter was in force, they had right to those cha'rges Looking to the Banik as liaying, undes cir. CUMStanees Of great delicacy and imlportnce, contributed essentdall to tIf e security and welfiere oi' the country, he thought they oughil not to secek out for every possible opportunity to strain the law tr 'their prejudice. (Hear, hear.) It would, he conceived, be unjust to say, after the services they had performied, that for the remraindei of the charter they should receive less for the management of the public debt than they had hitherto done. (fhear, hear.) Mlr. H UME said, it was of very great importance that his MI,. jesty's ministers should take. immediate stePs to free themselves frort the tra-mmels in which thleY had long bean held by the Banik. A: the interest of mnoney- was now nearly on a level with what it wai when the Bank lent a large sum to Government, he hoped the ChaL. cellor of the Exche-quer would not listen to anY aPPlication fora re. newal of the Bank Charter, but weuild pay off every 51hillin, tha't had been borrowed from the Bank, It would not be ditllcuilt to de that, as the 3 per cents. were at par. Let the countrY gentlemen re- collect, that the Bank were now acting as pawnbrokeis On a large scale, and were lending money on estates--a sYstem entirely con- trary so the original intention of that institution. The inteation was that they shiould be ready, on anyemrnc,t discount for tie pubicintret,br hsbeefi o trdendcomere.Now what did this bodyrealy do whe kep up isconts above the Current rate of the ay.The ket u th rae e'dicount at 4 per cent., 'when evey wereele i cold e btanedat3 per cent. He could not accde o te oinin o hi hoourblefriend-that it was inexpe. dict t cll oran ccontof heissesof Bank-notes. He thought the house ought to have before it a return of the amount of discounts effected by the Banik. HTe only wanted the amount of the discounts, he did not seek for the namesopf individuals, It was said that this monopolizing comn any had givengneattassistance to thiecountry, and that trade and commerce coulid not go on withouit them. But what assistance had they given ?~ Circumstances were now changed, and, without any aid from them,trade and commerce wereg gong on as well as they ever did. Let Governmentpay them off their l,'l,00,00000l., and if they afterwards wanted loans., the Bank would advanceethem mnoneyenoughi for 24 or 3 per cent..The country gentlemen wouldthus receive effectual reli-cf, tar the Bank would not know what to) do with their money, and must lend it ata very reduced interest. He hoped, before the expiration of the charter, that a regular inquiry veould be instituted into the whole subject. He did hot pretend to be a man of dep ega lernin; bt h wold tate a fact or two on the sub- ectothechares emaned y th Bak for inanaeing.the public debt whih wre wrthyof otic. Te bargain. whlich tbe Chan- cellr o th Excequr aguedougt nt to be broken. took Place in debt, since the pqssing of the said act, has been conieal increased, and new provisions must be made for managing teaon hro. Since that period, an increase of debt to the amnounit ofhearlyf. one-hir (aout igh tosix) hed taken Place;4 and certainly they had now a right to proceed on the sanie principle that tyas adopt- ed in 1808. It was equally reasonable and fair that a new ar- rangement shiould now be made, and that~ the rate of charge should be redluced, instead of cont:inuing to pay 200,0001. or 300,0001. a year for the management of' the whole debt, one-third of it' having been created aiRce 1808- Sir H-ENRY PARNELL was of opinion that it would be in- expedilent to renew the Bank charter. That object was usually ef- fected by a bargain made, in thze first instance, between the Govern- ment anti the Bank, which was then htid before the proprietors. All this was dune without any refe.rence 'to Parliament, who were un- aciluabitod with the details until the partie4 ov. of doors had set- tled the busiuess. if the'house entered into annq - s o h expeieny o renwin th Bak charter, he believed st would be fojund that such a mea-sure was; by no means wanting to guppor o assist the great interests of the country.potr Mlr. MANNING did not menc'l to oppose the hon, member's emotion for the Producaion of those accounts. The Bank had ever shown the greatest readiness ;:o lay its affairs before the public. Hie had no objection whatever to the accunt of the public bIanhces jin the hanids of the Bank, nor to the amognt of the chargesa for ma- riaging the pubEc debt, being PrOflneed. V'jilsr'espect to the returnLs mnade to the Stamnp-office, which baa been alluded to by t'he honour- sblegeuitleman (Mr. Grenfell), they would undoubtedly becon.1inued for public purposes. The honourable member for Aberdersithought it suite righitthat the amount of the issues of Bank-.notes sShould be lair! before the liouse. But certinly it was rather novel to ask for a list of bills, or to in~quire into anY retall transactions of a banker; and if they once eintered into this minute examination he saw no mod oprvntn a constant recu,rrence to it.Teongnt. man Mr. renfll)spoke of the latrge gums that were made by the management o the public debt-a-t thle same til~re that he did not denly eecuacy and promiptitude with whicha tibePumblic business was conducted. The management of the debt was not, howeve.r, overpaid ; and it should be observed, though it wvas not r'enemally known, that the Bank were obliged to ruin the risk of for'eries for, the transfer of atOek' WVhere a. forgery euacceeded, they were ac- countable for the amoant. The charge for managing the public debt was exactlY 7d. in the hundred pounds, which was no verY exor- bitant demand. The hion. member for Aberdeen h~td censured the Bank for lendling money to the landed interest, as being a practice ) posecl to the Principles on which that establishment was founded. = teface was otherwise. They were empowered by their charter n purchase lands, manors, and hiereditaments :auda an act was sased in the time Of William, for the expesproeo n ~ouraging the Bank to lend money on land.es AftrPs all teno- daints of 9entlemien in this hOuse on the subject of agricultural listre,6s-after the repeated'statements that they, could not get mny relief from the country bank-ers-it was sarely rather hard :o blame the Bank for granlting that accommodation which could sot be obtained elsewhere. Mr. EIALIC did 11ot understand hishbon.. friend (Mlr. H=tie) to :ay that the JIasak wgge 4ct115 imaproperly i4 lending moneyv tg t4~. lanede inttrest of the cotititry. WAne- ely ltope *h4t& ?4teTh- nent woulday the debt due to the Bank, by -which means the latter would be enabled to lend moneY at a much cheaper rate and agensib'c relief would be afforded to the country ycntlcmen, wow, .with respect to whg theehon; inembor (ltlr. Ma' aiiing) bad said, on thesubject,ofrequirifigf fritlhe Banka.xtatao mct of theiru pp *issuepi if tbey weiie-oilebartered body, haL firn:merely-thesawmc privileges- with othd* i rit.e d 1es,- estUliWhed .for the -clk titosc in $co1htnd, then -thc argHmenf of th6 hon.gnentlman would qultantwtremble; Thehouse-wouldlia,,e. no rigbt-to ask fot tbeizr - &teC ccOnts, mo te thin for thoseof any other corporadon: but te -Bank was an e- rception to all general rules. Parliamenlththd granted them a chatter, with privileges that were not enjoyed by any other of. bis hli esty' vubjccts. Look, then, at the circumnstances of the Bnk. They w'ete acting contrary to all vommon prinlp1es. 1nOtbad of usinjtheircapital fo:rhe purt poses originally contemplated -when the ank was establisbed_ natnely, for the protcetion and ePOursemerit of tradethteir whole conduct was utterly contrary to-lt. I~t was difficultJ he knew, to find a set of men ini that hoiase to take tIde view aot th,e subject, be- cause the system of the BWnk wau in favour of the great capitalists. If a great capitalist went inta thi miarket, t*eeohduct of the flak did not affrect him in borrowing, but it dia afiectthe rate of discount between an individtial and his banker, ria it sensibly afiected men of moderate capital. While others would 'ie conieht to dlscount for 34, the Bank kept up tbe rate to 4 per cent. As the tariff of the Bank of England was a rule to al the othier banks in the country every person who went fodi tcl>ount to'his banker, w3s obliget to pay 41. per cent. for l;, because the Bark thought proper to charge that sum. He (MAr, Bllice wished it to be seen, but, for hinisaf, lo d4d not htelove ihat,of.t leg;itimate secu- sity-commerc;al hi'ls.- in which the Bank ought pro'perly to vest their money-he did not helieve that their security of that descrip- tion amoounted to half a millioni and that only aimong the worNt Wils that came into the matket. And yet it was said thist tha house had not a rlght to as% thg ipolnt of tle linpt paper in circulation. He said IhAt t ws wtost necessary to am4 that qu'estian,tlhat the country might krow (in th.e 4nj) wh#t it ha4 to trust to, Sup- poee money to be wuddely wanted, how, upder the present circumOtaU,Ces, must the 4ank procecd to raise it?f Wfy, either they rftuEt iell Exchequer bills, ar.d so distress the Go. vernment, or ca]l upoli tlhe landed interest, and so distress the coun- try gentlemen. 'rhere- wag reAly an aversion to disclosure about the Ban]k, which he did not know oo6I 50- accoutnt for Tbc director who hbd'spiken ,at said-" WVould you ask us tne amoutit of our discotunts?y' And O fik not? Was theatnk of`France in a jot the less credit because it stated annually, not onlv the anlount of its dis. counts, and ot'its paper in circulation5 but actualty df the lprofits which it derived (hear), and cf the bulion in its coffers. He took of the whole question the same view w^ith his hon. friend near him and if ever it was in the power of the country to repay thc Bank ad- va'fic&s, he trustad that the opportunity would not be lost to make Go- vcrnmen t itdependent of that body. Such an arrangement,a itscermed ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~A ; .... %_ ....AA _A _A. ALP - . : mea tl h.ila practice ought to'be Provided by the pr.poieee Sir . LEH BRDGE, took thi oppoitunity of complaining of thellatJ'ip ndinjustice which was ~Cxper enc& .hy-the lab4- I Oli2Cr lahingcompelled to pay t~*~~,e;xpe,i of thle minstrtiji~ofcriminiai justice in each county.. That ex- Vens. ws etirly efryddout of tie, county ratii, and bad edegon sorapi aninceas withiir the last 50 years, that it wasnowaveylmortntcharge. Re boAtlookedijnto-tbcaccounts Of isown county frsomne yesrs past, arid without trubln h Ihouse at any length with the particulars of the great inces,h would nmerely State, that in the Year 17(11, the charge forpiin was 331. 189a wvhile in 1819, it had increametIt ,01.Teslr of the clerk'of the peAte in the first,mentionedya a 01 e Annuto, and now by mneans of additional fe,i mutdt 1,3001. or.1,400L. 1k was awarwat dottae source but thie county rates ftom which t?Irl'e res coudbpad but hie trusted tbh%t the rijiit lhonourable gentleman would eoi, among the altoutibOns which he proposed, the principle thatti ex- penitue houd e borne by th e nation at Large. and not taken from he lnd aone.He hoped that A com11mittee wobuld be appoint. ed o iquie ito hebest mode of relieving the land..owner from thi chrg, ad tatat the same time an inquiry would be made derd a a itniof he ~iatyrae. hich might be consi- Coloci OOD osealanforthePurpose of suggesting to the right on gntlemn an lteraIoni th'e consolidated gaol act Of heast ession.-,.c imeat sofa as related to the! cl.assification clA,ures. If' they were to be carried into execution, it could only be done At an expense whb,ch the swaller counties% were ill able to bear, and which moreover appeared to be quiite unnecessary Irn the counity which he h;d the hionour to represent (Breconshire) &h gaol consist- ed of four yards, four day-rooms, and slix celS ; arn estimate had been mnadeiof the sum it would cost tnnsuak-e the alterations required by the consolidated gaol asct, and it was found tbat at the kesat it would taRe 1.000J., or the, amount of four county rates ; while it W&S. %4ite certain that, one. half of it would never lte occupied. In thO e, 3pin{ng county of Radnor, the gaol consisted of two yards, two dlaj'roornas, and thulr cells ; the only prisioner waa sentenced to two years' imnprisonment, and he had petitioned to he tranferred to the other county gaol, in order that be. iight not be kept inI solitary confinemnent. Hie trusted that, seeing the number et' pri- soners in the gaols of the Welsht countiles, w iclh for the honour of ~he principality he was glatd to say wcre very few, those gaols would be excem led fron p~ ~Pipatioh of the c2ssification clauses. Ailr. 0OBUOUSE rose for the purpose oftcalling the right hon. pentlcnIain4'.attenti ofi't the injurious. consequenm% of the intrLIuc- Lion f thetreadiRif into the prison discipline. Notwit standing 1 the c~ots wichthe igh hongen. h~d rceivd rapecin~it, he ~Mr Uohoue) houht hata mre nspctin o th mahie was ruffcieit o poyt Itsinaequcy o te pupos fo whch t wasi in- 1esded 41 th pesos snt o i wee xpoed o te smedegree ~flac~u,v~rhot ay alownce ein tOAlefordifrreco of,. tion of .-ccle -J-stis[ W .ou inant tue value andcon&1.- ece't PrefC"nents in ftelind'attheir vrewscar, ' read1s of all other cou deratioes wbateye. flha fSir J..New.' rtas ob4ee? was to provide for the better end more e1te'nie m pe' m i. At gieus wotaip within teCuv fE itio. Atpreent, owd aveleave to withdraw ~is moto The motior was accordinglly withdrawn. IRISH RETURNS. M1r. GRATTAN roqe to submit amotion to whichhecoal anot ar.ticL(mPte any reasoable objection. It wastnerely1orxoey.ms &n to tnenamne and religious profexxion of gertain individurals Bhlrun pa-ticular offices in Ireland; ana his motion was, in eflect, coamcurg. rent with that of which anoble lord hadrecently giTen notice. *The house were well aware that, in 179:3, an~ act was passed deelar1ig Roman Cathiolics, as well -as Proestant, elifible.to*aU 4fieex aan posts in Ireland, wit), th ' excetio n of such as were therein byr lamne excejited. Now the immediate object hehtadin view, was 5 ihwho his.statute had been acted on, andi who bad been omitted ut ofits operation sincel17. And he really- did belieye thiat hese returns would gy-,far to demonstrate what waa the real cause of- he many political evils which bad so long afflic-ted Irelani:- fot -hey woulid prove, that out of the many offices which the act de.. lared Roman Catholkcs competent to fill, these was hardly one to. whic-h a Romala Cat~lic had been admitted. (Hear, bear.) If it iadi -not been for this most unjust and invidioug sort of exculusi 1relaud would not hive been agitated byhbalf the troubles which hAat it:ffllea her; atnd such an evasio ' of the act of 179g wa productive if more harmthan i'l the penal statutes th.t oppreamed hei-' At all nrents;, if Parlarametit were to repeal the latter to-maorrow, the is sealwo~d nt efec grate beefi tothat unfortunate couintry, lia, te ue bsrvace f hiseqitaleact would ensure to her. Utar) Te ho. gnt.thenmovd,"That there be laid before the lous, aretrn o th naes o al juividuals filling the following- ~ess he Rman Ctholcrel~,n~ r.t..- who pro.. tion ot the renewal of the Bank chart2r came nn. le hoped that'tha exclusive charter would never again be granted,and believed that th condu4t 9fthe Bank during tbelastlI0 or 12 years would make (ioverr mentverycautioushow theyentertained anysuch proposition.TherigI hon. Chaucellor of tbeExchequer ptoteoted egainst the idea of strait ing any point to tke prejudice of the Bank; ne (Alr. Ellice) thongg that the Bark had verg little t oomplain ot, when their stock, afte all their past profits wasi at 2'B Upon the question, hovwever, of tc incompetency of tbe house to Interfere with the managenmer of the public debt, he differed efitirely from the right honourabl gentlenan. The letter of MIr. Perceval said-he (tM r. Ellice) woul read a patsage fromp it to the house-intended nothing less than t preclude after 'be examinatiop of the subject. The words of M] Perceval were_- Under this disposition, I am strongly inclined t give way to the suggestions of the Bank, as iegasds the manner c arranging that part of the pifbljc debt, so far as it applies to preser crrcunsstances, or to citcumsetan)es expected to occur within a shos LI period." Surely these words did rat pat an end to all power c further examination. The hanourable member sat down by de Caring that, at a time -ahen the higher offices of Governnment hai beentouchedlihe thought hardly)by a tax upon their incomes, it wa too much to say that vie ahpould rot question theprofits of an alhead rich corporation; and hi wassorry to find tbe right hon. the thran cellor of the Exchequer resisting a reconsiderationof th tahetns upor hvlich they managed the puiblic debt. Mr. PE;ARSE defended the conduct of the Bank. Mr. BAAtING thought that it wa premature to be discussing a the present moment the question of renewing, or not renewing, th Bank charter; but, if any persons believed that the country woul be able to get on without any such establishment as a Bank,or with out an establishment a good deal like what the Bank was atpresent he differed from such persons in opinion, andl he thought that the would find themselves nistaken. Withi the management of th public debt he would fiotmeddle, for it was a subject whichi had bee: already canvassed over and over again; the question of the balances as it seemed to him, hlad always becn raost unfairlv stated by th lion. member (Mr. Grenfell).who had opened the debate, because th answer of the _%nk to the charge, that by the 4,000,0001. balance in their hands, the country was losing 120,0001. a vear-to wit that for the holding of those balances. they had diftinctlv givei compensation, and given it, too, -t the rate of a balance of f,,0 001. whereas the balance was now only 4,000,0001. ; that explanation th honourable member kept entirely out of Iiis view. 'With respect t the loans of money by the Bank iipsn mortgage, there was no doub that, under existing csrcnwistaoces, the country gentlemet had beei greatly benefitted by the practice; but, at the same time that he full a:nmitted the extent of the present advantage, he was compelled t consider the principle as in the highest degrce doubtful. (Heat hear.) And he thought it, indeed, a course the u ost likely thn could be taken to carry the country at some future period back t the distress and evils of a paper system. (H car, hear.) If the coun try, while we were in a state of peace, was to be kept in readines for a state of war, an efficient bank was just as necessary to us a an efficient anry and navy (hear); but, cramped as the resources e the Bank were with their loans on mortgage, and with the dea weight of the pension barga;n with Government, he did not thin they were in the begt condition for coming forward in a case of exi gencv. And one word with respect to that pension business, as t which the Chancellor of the IWxchequer had certainly never receive the smallest encoucagemeni; aon into which he (Ntr. Baring) be lieved-looking to the general good sense of his measures-h had been betra,yed by a 'disliket to sserifici nameasure in of 120,00OL being lost by the ;icancs in the hands of the Bank but by this tran5action, the country had lost at least a million and hal'; (hear, hear); for the traneACtIon was this-the contract We made for five years prospective, ihen three per cents. stoclk was a 74. But now three per cent stock was at 90; and would probabli beat 100. The whole advantage of this diffezence came Into th hands of the BR k. And, take the case in any shape, the bargai: was without excuse. It might be said that we lost, because it s happened that stocks had ilsen ; trid that stocks might have fallen and then we should have been gainers. But the fact was otherwise The transaction was, either way, unwise and unpiofitable If the country remained at peace, then stocks lose, and a course we lost; if stockh fell, why it must be because the countr' was drawn into war; anid then we had locked up the funds of th Bank when we most wanted them at full liberty. As it was, hi (Mllr. Baring) relieved the Chanagillor of theBxchequerfrom habin1 nad any share in devising isdch a bargain; but he did hope that no thing would induce that right bon. gentleman to renew it. (Hear hear.) A very few words more, upon an observation of an hon member near him (Air. Ellice). It was said that it would be de sirable, as soon as possible, to pay o4ff the debt due to the Bank It was quite useless to talk of doing this, in order to make Govern ment independent of the Benk; because Go-ernment msightbe mad, independent of the Bank in fiveminiites, In thepresent state of th, money market, there could be no difficulty in raising the Bank deb of l5,000,OOOL But, although it would be nmore regular tr4 defir an observation as to the destination of the surplus of the sinking fun until after the Cha(rkellor of the Exchequer had stated his view o the financial arrangements, generally, tor the country, y et he woult juSt say that he thought tl e best application of that surplus woule be to the payment of those claims upon the country which must b, paid in money. We might, if we pleased, 'redeena money whici was owing at par, and so not be doing as we were doing now, re turning at 100 what had beeni borrowed at5O or 60. The lessening therefore, of the floating debt, or (in that view7) of the debt due h the Bank would he thought, be the wisest purpose to which thi surplus oc the sin kin 'fun could be applied Mr. HUDSON GUNEY s3aid afew words which did notreaC the gallery. Alr. MABERLY wished for a committce to declare what tli Bank ought to receive for managing the public debt. The dear weight bargain he had always deprecated; but, as he' had movee for papers on the subject, he should forbear to carry his view of i any farther at present. Inhisopinion, the commissioners of thi sinking fund might have had, and ought to have had the bargain As ite was, they had been left to buy annuities at the 'highest possi. blc price, p'hile Government was selling themi absolutely at thi lowest. Mr. MONCKIthough an aceount of the discounts most expedient and objected strongly to the principle of the Bank lending money on mnortgage. Mr. PEARSE explained.-Tlte motions were then put, and agreed to. GAOL ACT. Mr. PEEL rose, pursvant to the notice he had given on a fonmet evening, to rioveXor leave to bring in a. bill to amend the gaol act passed in the last session. It hatl been found, upon carrying that act into execution, that there were one or two particulars which im. peded its operation, and to anctid it in these respects was the object of his present motion, In the first place, the act as it now stood re. quired certain things tobedoneat the general quarter sCss'ons in each county. The counties of York and Lincoln being divided intc districts, and the periodical administration of justice in those coun- ties being under a difftrent regulation, there were no general quar. ter sessions, and therefore util by a new enactment they should be included in the act, they could not be brought under its opera- tion. Anotber of the amendrents which be proposed to introduce was, to gve to local magistrates a power of committing prisoners to the cotintygao atoge, instead of tothe district prisons. He was convinced .the vnoA e tns practice wss reduced the better; and it wonld be still more advantageous if there were only one gaol in each county to which all 'the prisoners should be committed. As far as he had been able to gather thd general wish of the inhabitants of such distrcts as he dedto, they would prefer hav- ing their prisoners cornuitted to the county gaol, and wrould wil. hlngly.pay the expenses of garrying them thither. The uniformity of disciline which prevailed in countv gaols could never be attained in sntafler prisons while any abusei whicli crept into the former would be mors resily.discovered and corrected.' Theprisonsofthe localiurisicitio4s oaeqnies cgntained no more than four or 4ve prisoners; they were net ssuject to the same visitation as the county gaols, nor was it possible to linde them under that inspection which was so easily applied to a larger number. Where was also aniother topic which he intended to include in the biUl. Great dfrepce of opinion prevailed with respect to the compelling prisoners who were committed for trial to labour in the same manner as those who were uider sentencc. He had no hesitation in saying, that he thought prisonpss ought not to be kept to hard labour before trial; but for the purpose of removing all doubt and difference of opinion upon the subject, he should' insert a clause to that effect. An honoarable gentleman (Mr. Grey Bennet) bad, on a former occasion, given notice of his intention to propose a measure respecting this particular subject, but as he understood that to be only in case be (MIr. Peel) did not take s,oa steps in it, the honourable gentleman would nowprobslly'noe think it necessary to fulfil that intintion. He concdaed- by moving tor leave to bring in a bill to amend the gaol act of tbe last session. Sir E3. lNATCBULL concurred entirely with the right bon. Secretary in the amendments which heproposed, and deprecated the practice of keepingrpisoners to bard labour before-triai. There was, ,however, another, and no less objectionable practice, where prisoners who had been sentenced by 'the Court to im prsonment, but not to labour during that imprisonment, were etil made to Iat. bour upoti the plincipl1'that they, ought toproyide for their support ed9ong a their W4g 'wi a p. ont. He thorught that Wmr re, ~~.~LUULI.inc ;tAnu-nittee0or rronDis,ciplinechad furnished even a imore cogenit reason why punihzbmcst should be iti in) Som1e degee modified, when they denounced it as a dangerouis in- strumnent of-oppresssion in the hands of wan ton ansi ignorant persons. He was gla.d to understand that the right lhon, gentleman proposed to piAt an end to* the monstrouLs practice of keeping prisoners to hiard labour before trial-a practice which he war astonished could ever bave beeni enforced by m4gistrates calling themnselves the sub-. jects of a free country. The hon. mnember for Yorkshire had en. deavoured to find -an excuse for those magistrates, by saying that they thou~ght they were exercising the power meruswtedi to them ; but had they not the seine means as everv other man posessed of k-nowing the extent of' that powver? TFhe W'hole law of the'kingdom did not furnish a pretence for such a power. He thought the alter- rations proposed b3y the right hon. gentleman highly creditable to hiim, and hoped thiat he would take the subject of the- t,read-mill also into consideration. Alder-man WOO0D said, that a spce oflbursmlar to that of the tread.mil had beeni practised o'n th&e qluasouf Lodn o the last hundred years; and us, notwithstanding somie accidentg to which the persons working thisl machine were exposed, and from which those at the tressd-niiil were exempted, mien were f'ound will- ingto orkat hemachaine, he could not consider it too severe. The 1~hur f te pisoers in Newgats was far more hard. He thought thecontyraes ailychargeable with expenses of administering the rimnalJUSICO01'the counities. Sir . CO~4E oul say onie wordl in confirmation of what had falln fom he en,memiber for Brecon, by stating that in his coun- ty(lmrasie the alteratious would amiount to 5,0001., while te grets nmeof grisoners had not exceeded l8, aisd the annual average a o mor tan six. Mr. PEEL considered that as considerable expense was incurred by, the prosecution of crimi.nals, there was no more likely mnode of di- minishing those expenses than an eifiectual regulation of prisons. He should feel gret difficulty in saving that no classification'of offenders should take p lace in coufities which were too salla to bear the ex- poenrse butt he thought the difficulty might 'o obviated by thiree or forcounties joining in building one gaol. 'With refereince to what had fallen from the honourmble member for WVestminster, he really wished that honourable gentleman* would tak-e the trouble to peruse the returps, whichi would shortly be laid on the table, On eCue SUbject. -He (IMr. Peel) had caused a mnost minute inquiry to be made, and the weight of indiv-iduals subjected to the puriish. ment of the tread-miill was noted, fr-on, which it would appear thakt so far as increased weight was an indication of good health, the pu- nislhnsent coulti not have operated injuriously. As the labour was only for the short periodi of a quarter ot' an houxr at a time, nothing couild be more easy, if it were.found necessary, than to give to the robust mnan two turns, and to the weak man onily one. lndeed,thepe.. coular ativantage of this punishment is, thiat it could be graduated. If'irwere said, why then, was it not ? the answvermigbt fairly be, that the magistrates Ao not find aLny ill eftbcts oAthe parties subjected to this discipiine. On the whole, he considered the tread-mill as an admirable contrivance, and thatno sy-stem of labotir could be devised whiels was so little liable to abuse. it was not necessary for bin to defend. the general conduct of the miagistr-ates of this country ; he believed there was only onie singl case of a miscon- struction of the act, a-nd that was in the North -R idi;ng of Yorkshire; but to remesly that, he should introduce a clause to exemnpt any pri- toner from the labour of the tread-mil prior to his conviction. Leave w-as then giveni to bring,in thebill. J URIES. Mr. PEElS then rose to maov for leave to briiw.'-hi toa,,n*.. ?.- .% . -p-U ,t ituries. Hesai, ,t wa-s unnecessry for hiM to attenmpt any eulogiunen on the system of trial by jury, and he hoped st was equially unneLessary for him to say, that it was no-t his intention, in any- Dart of the proposed bill, to introduce a word that would tend to weaken die efliciency of thlat ad- midrable system. HIls irttention was to consolidate the' laws ; and when he stated that there wereno less than 50 statutes on thsat subject, it would at once be seen how desirable it was that a consolidation shouldtak-eplace. There were2Odiil'erentstatutes to show who might be a juror in England. The nutmber alone wvas a sufficient reason for his meRsure; but from the titles of somie of the acts, no one could be led-to believe that thee' related to juries. lie would defy, any man to gusaf that' he sbo ' d find a regulation on that subject in an act for the more speedy recovery of small tithes. Onie aet was entitled, "fo prveningthe exporttion of leather;" another, "1for the better PaYn entof s alle' wages;- " and aniothier "for exempting apotheca. ries from serving the offiee of scavengers ;" in all which thre were clauses relating to juries which be proposed in consolidate. As to any amendnient of the law which would of course provoke discus- sion it would be better to postpone them to a fututtre stage of the bill. On t6ile subject of the qualification,he should propose some enactmient, and also for the more effectually compelling the attendance of jurors. On the subject of subordinate offieers nomninating the persons who were to serve oni juries, he should also propose some regulation : he thouglit the magistrates in petty sessions might be usefully empiloy- ed in checking the returns of te ithingninan or constable, and pu- nishinh a omissioui of a qualified person. Si, JOHN NE WPORT hopedi that a separate measure of the same nature woutld be brought forwardl applysog to Ireland, wlhere thiepresent practice amounted to asurrender ofjustige intotshe hands of individuals very ilqual-fied, from the operations ofjealousy and partv spirit, for such a trust. Mr.WOD&H OUSE disclaiimed the intention of casting any re- flection oni any of the learnied persons presiding or practising in the courts of' law ; but in some of' themn, the Court of Exchequer particularly, therevwas alax:Lity ojfprocceeding with reg,ard to prosecu-I tions, and an array of counsl bhich must compel every one to en- ter aprotest against bothiin a moral and conslutitutonalIpoint of view. He recommexded to the right hon. gcntlemln (Mlr. Peel a quiet and steadly attention to the ameliomstion of such aboue-s, by which (though no noisy famie was attached toit) he would confer thi greatest benefit, and one whbilh the great bod of the people woul-d dulv ap- prectate. Mdr. HlUME had on a former occasion expressed his opinion in favour of choosing the jury by ballot,and he had since hiad an uppar.. tunuty of' conversing with the officer whose duty it was, at p-resent to strike the spcal Jure~ and he (Mr. Home) was convincedi that no- thingwol be mrpeaigohim than to be divested of that power; and this he(r ue huhtnuight easilv be done. He hop,ed therihh .geteawol save the housie the trouble of oig throuhtoblsai wolbinueh more convenient to have the whl ujc mrcdi ntatute. Indeed, he considered the sim13lifetn of te statute-book as an object well worthy of the attdinti of Government. He instanced the case of an act for reoeigof tithes, which c-ontained a clause the eff'ect of which i ='seldetheng number of proctors in the Prerog-ative Court, and the charges were in consequence very Ihigh. Mr. G. LA3MB said he could not hut feel jealous of consolidating acts, as he had seldom k-nown thema to go through the house without some new clause being introduced. The hon. menuber for Abeideen, on the proposal for amendling the jury systemu, Was'at pDoo for sum- plifying the whole qf the sttute law of 'ngland~and alsio'rgltn thie Prerog ative Court. He (1Mr.. tamib) would rasher hav a n single bU, as proposed by the hon. memnber for Essex (Mr. -'sVes. tern). If he had occasion, he would rather refer to the old statutes on any point respecting the jury3sstem, than have to hunt it out in the wordy labvrinth of at niodern act of Parliamient. Mluch good was said to'have been done recently by the rep?eal of abso- lute oppressive statutes; but there was a principle in loperatior. which did good by lleaving them in disuse, whilst 5O5av theseb consolidation acts revived, and put thema aspin into bassefuloperation. 'Dr. LUSH INGTON considered the prasent state of the law to he a very great evll. It was almiost impossibile to say on any one subject ivhat. was the statute law. There was no lawyer in that ouse who cold-, nor he beVeved ina the other, naot even'the I,ora Chancellor biniself. His hon. -and learned fTiend objec'ted to~ the mneasure proposed, bedamose something 'prejudicial ii%ight creep' in, but ii was the ditty of thsat boule to watch over and prevyPut such resutPIt. It had been said, thittshecy woiild lose the benefit of de- cisons ; but was there ever a ease in whichsthe counsel 'on both sides did not pro-duce a number of eases which each conteaded were ec;)y in point? Ile woald appeal to coisntrY gesiuepien whether it was not desirable to hiavenpne5t h a hc otherwise they mukst look for ip new~ e'isioRsso irnsStc, where the variouas staiut6s were pointe out.'~eSsuesa ag most be proc4red, then, at tetiinexesofbut0giea; after that they mpist havth ersinhot,hew lef a lawyer's library, liphCostsaot100. H a aife that the mrn.ershe system wseaie,temr eesr it would he found to resorttotesseofcnoito. Sir EDWVARD K ACBL was friendly to the consolida.. tion of thie law, though he was not pread to admiit the necessity of extendiagthe qualification of jprymen. L.emvw sv given to bring in the bill. THlE IRISH CHURCH. Sir J. NIEWPORT, pursuant to notice, after some prefatory ob- servations, moved for leave to bring in a bill to repeal so much Of the set of the 21st of Geo. II., cap. 8, as prohibitea the diminution of ecclesiaattia dignities, by severing froma any deanery or canonry, any parish, except on the condition of adding'another parish of equal value to it. Mr. GRATTA.N expressed hiis intention of giving nio opposition. to the bill thougth he saw that it was liable to s6raeobjections. Alir. (3iJUlBlURN gpposed the repeal of' the act, on the ground thaLt it would not fomwn,4 thg oblectss hicli the bpu9pRmWbla7,rones ls i4 iv jwt ,Darriters, Uomlsiiiioflers o Ban %A e-t* dito CoKVMMIatine of Insolvent Court, ditto, Comfniistoe, Inqditt a nd mageme o Courts of Justice- ditto,Tasing Offioners of 1sCourt l s; dinto Fm oe teel to the Crown fOr the sil circuits, fesor the assirse of tt82C; to. Counsel to the Customs, EXciaet fCo sion the rase of 1tae a'n o and other Government offices; ditto, magistrters owift saiesat Police Of the cpity of Dublin.; ditto, 'Con-issioners of Appea in wsevenue Causesut Crown tbicito ra- Clerks of the Cro Clerko the eaces; TndmoetahesturDes tnder the insurrection af consti't larysetes forutee Ot'the Linen Board ; General Inrspectors of pri_ sons Governor, Deputv-Governor and Directors of the Bank of Irelanid; Scholarii of T~iiity C,ollee Comain'frdsr. dit the rofGenteto the Lord Lieutenant for ? sromotitig educatiord ditt ofGenralBoard of Health;. ditto o. Inland Navigation; ditto for auditingnublicaccountsh dittoofCustoms: ditto of Exve acit; d oo s D Stmubl ies ditto for paving and lighting thc city of Du blian ; ditto for erecting fountains in ditto, ditto Ior p ve port of dt;itto for wide streets in ditto.. Now, aneongabl these Ofncers he' really, beieved there ws scarceiv- a single Roman Catbl5 Thol Tere were 74 trustees for example, anf the Linen Board ; and he had reason to assert hat among the bm there was not One Catholic (hear) ; o that he imagined he might anmoetay ithc te niththat in all the 27 offices aid appointments ton there was hardlly one officer of the re- ligious persuasion ii ques tion. (Hear.) Upon the question teing put troni the chair Atr. Gu LBURNh said, it bad not been his good fortune to be present in the house when notice of this motion was given, and it was Only by accident that he had seen it in the paper. But as it stood there, it was by no means so detailed as the mootion now sub. mitted by the hun. get. ; for it wat- there described as a" return of the names and religious persuasions of all persons connected with the general adninistration of justice, receipt and maniagement of' the revenue, the general manufacture and education of Ireland." He (ttr. Goulburn) thouegt that every body upon reflection must see a sufficient reason for his refuring these returns. It would be the first time that this house, by an order of its own, had ever thought fit to call on certan bodie-s in the community to niake a return of the rerigioas persuasion of the various peraons of whom they were composed, or of those of the offiers they emploed. Honour-. able gentlemen must be aware that even in the cas of the common population returns, which it was considered expedient to sake at stated periods, an act of Parliament was always pased to authorize the degree of power necessary to be exercised, in order to get such eturns preparedn. Yet, in a motion of ths inu usit ial nature, it was thought sufficient that an honourable meme should mere]w come down and move the returns as matter almost of course. Gt had indeed, been the policy of the legislature to require that the candidates for cetain offices in the State should mnake a profession of faith before they were allowcd to enter upon them; but such t teat Ias never required of those who had already ntered anf d were in the enjoyment of offices. This would be a principle quite new to oir constituteon and one which he (Mr. Gonlburn) would ever warmbly oppose. 'he otablon tAed for the return, not only of grand jturors and petty jurors, but also of all persons connected with the adminisjration of justice. Now nothing could be moare unreasonable than that in such retuirnis should be in- cluded individuals whose aervices were purely honorarY, and without emolument. He had no obw mcion howvever to a retuts that should be confined to those who 9ad alreadv taken the test oathCs. In the starpand cther departments, there was no ne i for inqairing into the reliious perseuasion of the officer; for he (Mrt GAm1hbura) dni sI on con lo wih -tbeland, ai *b ade it aasort ofn?r tosft casri es of audh appointmnents, from inquiringat all into t or political opinions of the party. On theo he ly ated old rist the motion. 1ord ALTI RPcldhdy conceive it possible, if the princple which thLte rit honourawe ge-s- hadiug spokaen Of had been acted o, t apr cout here there wos so small ai t rpowrton of Protes ado great a ailor ty,of Roman Caeto so very few of thelattr sou have been admitted int these offices in thecoxseof so many tea"r. Were these an thing realy inquisitorial in te tion ofhis hon. friendt he (Lo Althorp) would ha thebelast mnan to support it; but tbhe fact was, that til his own atttntio-a hadl been ?articularly called to the subject, he wa not at all. aware how ?ew Oatholis had been appointed to offices which they were competent by law to fill. Though not at present excluaed by law, they were, inWfedt, by prejudice ; and they wotld continue to be so as long as they continued a degred cast in the country. The return itself ould, be the most effectual means of removing the degradation which cansed so much mischief and misery to IrelAnd. Air. HOBHOUSE thought, thati hen the act of 1793 was Passe ed, it must undoubtedly have beets the intention of the legislature that somehow or otherithey should lean fron timec to time whether their benevolent intentions were carried into eifect. fie should likze to know how they could leam, withoultsore such retumns being made to the house, as those that were now moved for? He held in his hand a list that had kieen furnished him by an Irish gentleman of very good information, of al othe offices tbat were opened to Ca- tholics under the act of 1793; and he was iirbrnaed that at presrnt there was not one of them filled by a Roman Catholic. (Hear.) He should be glad if the right hon. gentleman iould contradict this statement of theyirey alluded to. Ilir. GOULBttRN.it To the extent which had been mentioned by the hon. gentlenian opposite, it certainly was not true. (" Hear, hlear," from theo inistertl beaches.) .ir. HOBH4USE...Then that was the v?ery reasonwhy the re- turn shouldlbe furnished. (Hear.> An bon. member wlho sat below himi (Mr.Doii rwnwblee assured him that thepropor. tion of Protestants to Roman Catholics in these appointments was as 49 to50. (Hear.) The objec of his bon. friend (Mr. Grattan) was slmply, therefeore, this-.to know whether religioUS 'faith was a ground of exclusion from those officest which the act of* 1793 opened without any suqi distinction. The right hion. gentleenan had ob- jected that sene of the appointments were merely honorary; but the Iriah, like~ the rest of the wvorld, thought something of the honour, as wvell as of the miore substantial emolumnests of office. The ex- cuse which the right hon. gentleman had given for his opposition was at least N'cry su!spiCious; and without mieaningan thinig per. sonally disrespectful to hinm, surely it was notquttetreO. The fact was that the right bon. gentleman didto ik ht hr should be laid on the table of the house any recorthtntoel. maan Catholic bad been aidrmstted to any of these numerous offices to which they were equally compeet with Protestants under an act of Parliamnent. (Hear.) How many. Romani Catholics the-re mulst he, the right hon. gentleman very well knew.. Air. GOTTL BU-RN really did riut. Air. HOBHOUSE.-T.hen if ibe sAthtlon. gen tler~arm did no,, know heo Otglwp'lft alt - e n ' lh Mi-11W iiel,em ployea by the (QOvernetinayofIilapointments in Ilreland. Could anyklnowleg bemr eesr or the Secretay for Ire- land P The retur o oe o ol hw that all thu boast,- ings of Parliamnent, as to what they hiad done foj Ircasd- - were vain that they lied only kept that prA-- . power, which chausetl niot onlv power. '-' UJtflatin~pryi [that party armshbad been ivp-' . .. rsas,exlsvl,T with teir poer; anAwi iuch never would be laitllwsbi wthathoeir ofwter; ,' edit wauoly last sessioA, hebeied ...Lonfroi Lndoderrh,on.,,,i se VlCtO~ea ~th~k earnof th gipnua reolutin, ythe Baoe t n th wic theyhd e shad beenpon.anThe ngms of Briis d cosunbto fenb iie upatwasiththeydha cofl thapetft houe. abandohtnaedW so nou latipieirofellowsubjectd,notuldthey l xph t seit5h bythoemigde tsisamelinhewitehc et'hed eythadrecoutldbeess oldte oa bu hair prospect of obtaining it, as long as such a system a-h rsn zoninud t beupeld. He hoped.under the cir-cunieneso h :sse th rigt hn, ecretary (Air. Goulburn) 'would.re.a.onslr his ippoitio an notrefse his assent to the present mnotion. The IdANOELOR of theEXCHEQTjER said,6b coulld see io reason wh the motion should begranted, embracantga, sriaciple which would cl upon every msan holding a situation in a public st8ice to state whiat his relig.tors as; ht therefore wsuld concur with uisrighthon. friend'iopsni.Brspicplyo h ups if settingthlatpeerrgtnoeoitanto chmht dliere did noteitishslljaysgvreetayltoiint ixclude the RmnCtoit lenl iooto.rarng In offices towihtywrblw& be ewulmnin :wo instancsiwhc ma aolc.abeaportdtju. ie situatios:oeothm(rTry.t2bt(ehii)0 . ;pector of cutmatierolante.te(irDryI ho) ~o the officeofcm oieoftap;ade eiv lhte soble lord atthhedofheresrdi 6kwhtiil( were Catholics or nt hsoislw id~ ~ ea~u lisposition to excueIounCahlc fcbajpyis Lnquiry aLs to thei'rlgo. * ;.- Mtr. HUMNE aiththetopontmn#nt tln M 'rsOC4rWe inlyexcetios tothegeneal ule,andif: should fiirther.;be wolA p?eSS it, if not, he jlerdged h-nself that he wotld brimg ft Ebo wardior anoth?er ocasion. Wliatbe accused the liovmnmnent of was, that thy p-arsetsdJslne of policy which tended to irsitala the. o- rrai Ctn olihcs of 'Ireland, by etteuding them 'fronm any partuslp3- ttOh int those offices to ivhich thejr were' eligible by the act of 1793.. The hon. memober then 'vess dn to contend, that elCcouduct hither- to pnrsutedtowsrd.q the Roman Catholics of Ireland by th'e goven- intsit of that coantry, was stih would be disgrace even to the Turkish empire; and concluded by exprsing a ope that no that Government had begun to act upon a more liberal ysytem rhey would not refuse their assent to a motion foundedupon, a r.s:l fconciliation. PMr.XA. ELtIS thought thst the motion ought to be acceded to y the Secretafry for Ireland, if it were only for his own satisfaction; for as ha did not seem to know the proportion in which the offices ee divided between Protestants and Roman Catholics, he ought 1lQt to refuze tlat which would give him correct information on the 3ubject. It ought not to be suffcred to go to the Roman Catholics of Ireland that no motion tending to give them the same advantage as their Protesant fello'.subjects, in situations to which they were n.iie eligiblc, could obtWan the Sanction of that house. ilr. PEEL said, it was unfortunate for the inference drawnb the honourable member for Aberdeen, thtat the two Roman Catholic Pporittnent spolcen of were not originallv made by this Govern. itsent. They were origially made by the Irish Government, and in the late arrangements by the Treasury they were continued. So that it was unfair to infer that these were exceptions to the general rule f the Irish Goyemment. With respect to the motion befote the house he would say, that if the object was to show that the Roman Catholics had not their fair share of patronage, the pfresent mode ws a bad onee. Let the object be fairly stated; let it be shown, if it could be shown, that Roman C..tholics were excluded (being in otherrespects7 equally eligble in poistof qualification), solely because they were Roman Catholicsrand let the onu, of answering such a case rest with the Government. g.uhe could not thinkofeneayourinKto come at such an object by adopting a principle whieh would say to every man in a public office, " Are you a Roman Catholic, or are You a Protestant ?" But suppose it could be shown that the greater portion of the appointments to public offices took place in favour of Protestants; still, seelng'that the great snass of property-he would not say all-was in the hands of Protestants, he could not see any thing un'tiir in it, unless it could be shown that Roman Catholics with superior, oreven equal, qualifications, wererefused to make way for Protestants. If such a case could be mnade out, let it be fairly brought forward,but no tangibleobjectcould be gained by bringillg the question in its present shape. With respeet to the trustees of the lUiner. Boayd being all Protestants, he believed it was well known that thegreat mass of the linen manufacturers of the north of Iretand were Protestants, and it was fronm that part of the country that most of the trustees wvere selected, as being hetter qualified; from their knowledge of that branch. The right honourable gentleman then briefly adverted to the other topics of the speeches in support of the motion, and concluded by observing, that his chief objections to it Were the fear of extending the principle contained in it, and the in. conclusiveness of such a return, even if it were fully beforethe house. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, the object of the present motion as to '4w how far the act of 1X93, in favour of Roman Catholics, had x~ cAearried into effect; and the resistance to it was mnadePto'der to hloodwink the people of this country and prevent theirsecing the real tate of th case. It was boasted that the two appointments of Roran Catholics that had just been mentioned had been mrsade by the G"Jovernment of lreland. They had-but w:hen ? In l8ot& L " No," t'rom the Treasury bench.) He souald say yes; for he knew the fact. But suppose they had been appointed by any other government since then; what would that prove ? That two RomIn Catholics had, in the course of 30 years, been appointed to situations to which during that time all Roman Catholics had been eligible. He would alsd assert, that at the time the reappoint- ment of those two persons to offices in England took place, Govern- ment knew they were Romnan Catholics. It had been stated by the noble lord at the head of the Treasury to be the wishof hlis Mllajesty's Government to put the Roman Catnolies in possession of their fair ghareofpatronage. Now he (Sir J.Newport) wished,in supporting the present motion. to compare the facts with the statement of the case. It had been said that the trustees of the Linen Board were without emnolument. *Vere they without pateonage ? He wished to know -hy Lord Fingal or Sir Edwarn Bellew were not as fully qualified as any of the individuals of wlhom that Board was composed? When thev saw such exclusion, on such limsy pretexts, it wvas ihle to talk of Roman Catholics enjoying the benefits of the act of 17;3. The nght hon. baronet went on to contend that it was an evil which muast be felt by any man, however humble, to find that the path to any posts of honour or emolument, the rewards of industry and exertion, should be closed to him. When he (Sir J. Newport) heard the Lord Chancellor of England ask " wvhat interest hadl the great body cf the people in the question whether the road to the Lord Chaneel- loethip Was open to them or not ?" he would reply, "Did nor yonr father find .somue convenience from the road being open to you ? They had more instanceS than one of pei sons rising from humble spheres of life risinz to. and hionourably filling, some of the highest offices in the stare. Tbe late L,ord Avonmore, who had distinguish- ed himself sO eminently in his professio,n, and hid risen to the head of it, did not perform lis important duties the worse for being the son orawool-comber. Though smilar instances might not be very nu- mncrous, it was in hurnan nature to feel regret at the certainty of being excluded from the possibility of increasing their number. Mr. CA.NINf, said, the latter partof the right lion. baronet's seech had turned upon toptcs, in some of which he felt with him, though he did not think the present monient exactly suited to their discusior. The last topic, as it went to show theinterest which the humbilest individual inight feel in the question of eligibility to the highest office, and that therefore the hope of such office should not be shut out from any, was one which addressed itself to the feelings ot all, and the principle af which lie had often exhausted himself in upholding But they were not then inquiring how far such offices ought to be opened to all. Wrhat he had formerly contended for, along with the hon. baronet, was-eli- gibslity; but they were no? going into the question of election. For his own part, he did not wish that there should be any bar be- tween the Ctowvn and the people; but lie did conceive, that having grnted the faculty of choice, it was not the business of Parliament to watch over the power which was not granted, but restored to the Crown. WVhat had formerly been complained of was, that Roman ,atholics,being alike eligible with their Protestant fellow-subjects to al offices, certain statutes intervened to limit as well the right of the Crown% to sdelct, aa the eligibility to be elected to certain of those offices; and he fuly concurred with those who made that com- plaint, and in the beautifully poetical allusion that had been made by the bonourable member (3Mr. Hobhouse), that the rays of regal bounty should sbine equally upun aU ClAsses of subjects. (Hear, hear.) The principle conrtended for in the present motion went too far. Others besides Roman Catholics were not eligible to certain offices, and what was the remedv applied by Parliament ? An an- nual inderinrty. (Hear, bear.) The true polcy then was, not to inquirc how far this had been elfected, and put questions to each in a public office as to bis relig(ious persuasion. This was a principle that could never be lost sight of, could all the disabilities against Roroan Catbolics or any other sect be removed to-morrow. The presert motion would, however, quite abandon it; and for no purpose wbatever would he consent to it, for it might be wrested to the worst of purposes. He was as anxious as asy bonourable member could be, to remove those bars which impeded as well the right of the Crown as the hopes of a very large proportion of his iajestv's subjects; but whenever the whole or part of those bars Or disabilities sbould be reinoved it would be his wi-h that there the matter should rest; an3 , the question of eligibility being fuily or partialy admitted, that the question of election should not be introduced. Another objection to the motionwas, that aslong as this was a monaychy, and the dis- po,al of officeitvas vested in the lExecutive Governnuent, he did not think it politic, though he would not say that Parliament had not power, to examnine into the exercise of that discretion, unless fraud or manifest injury could be shown. In conclusion he wouldobserve, that there was a disposition in this Mlajesty's Government to give to the Roman Catholics a fair slike of patronage in regard to the situations to which they were eligible: and believing that in the mean time this motion, if carried into effect, would prove a fire- brand in the midst of tbe people of Ireland, he would give it l; de. cided negative. Mr. RIELY HUTCHINSON contended that !he great aim of Government had beeu to defeat the object of tie act of 1793. Mr. GRATT , N briefly replied. The house then divided, when there appeared For tbe motion, 11 I Against it, 88 I 'ajority 27. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned at 11 o'cloc. --- LIST OF THE M1AJORITY Of 28 who voted with Air. Curwen for the production of the orders of tife Secretary ofState, that dispensed with the attendanceof the House of Keys in the Crininal Courts of the Islc of Alan. Abereroinby, mitre, E. Moncek, J. B. WVood. Mr. Mtd. Hon. J. Grar z,.t11Jarmes Macintosh.sirJ. Wrottesly.sfr J. Altlsorp, Lord Guise, Sir iam. ltobare8, A. W. Warre, J. Baring. Alex. Guzrney, tHudson Rouaxts, Col. W1"ill1anis, Jotlti Tright, Henrr Hasnilton,L.ord A.Rurnbotd, C. E. Brovsn Danite Jamien, VMi. Tierniey, Rt. lion. Tellers. Bury. Lore Kennedy, T *r. G. CLumren. J. C. Calcraft.Johmn Kemp. TP. Seftoni, Lord HuOme, Joseph Purianno ordLomb,ho. Geo-.r HOUSE OF COMIMONS. ThixSDSA-. FElT. 1lQ