House Of Commons, Friday,...
The Times, 1824-02-28T00:00:00

dlr. R. iMIARTIN presented a petition froni certain inhabitants of Liverpool, praving tor the abolition of hull-baiting and other cruel sports, and also for somre measure for thie prevention of cruelty to dogs. As to bull-baiting, the honourable member said it was al- ready illegal, according to the opinion of a vety high law authority. -Tbe petition was laid on the table. Mr. Aldeman NWOOD presented a petition from gorne parish in Devonshire, against the duty on coal and culm.-Laid on the table. ILord G. SOM ERSET presented a petition from the in. habitants of the town of Bury St. Mdmund's,_praying for the aboli- tion of slavery.-Laid on the table. Sir W. INGIILBY presented a petition from a place in Lincoln- shire (we did not hear the aname,) praying for some measure for the more effectual recovery of small debts. Mr. ff. SUMINER presented a petition from Dorking, in Sur- rey, for the repeal ofthe duty on coals. IRISH MIINES. On the motion of Ar. S. RicE Ieavc was givCI to bring in a bill for incorporating a cotnpany for working minie in Ireland. CASE OF AIR. CIIARLES FIjNT. JMr. DE, NIMAN said, he held in lhis hand a petition of considera. ble importance as related to the admiiinistrationi of justice; anti the more so, front the powers which a late act of Parliament gave to maFistrates. The petition was Irom a Mrlr. Charles I'lint, con. plaining of tlec conduct of a mnagistrate of tle county of Stafford anci who acte(l as the dliairnan of sessions at Stafford, and also a member of the House of Coinmmons. ile regretted that it vas his duty to present a petition whivcl complained of the conduct of a gentleman fer whlo he entertainel so great a personal respect as hle did for the honourable member tbr Staftord (Ir. Ctetrwynde.) The petition was very long, and contain- ctd many allegaions. ruThe honourable mllember v'as already inform. ed of their nature, and in his opinion thley weresuch as called upon him for an answer. It was probably not unknown to the house, that the town of Staffordl had for a considerable time past been agitated by the claim of a person llanaedt Cooke, to soisie lants in the 'Pus- session of Sir George J erninghani, and also to a barony for which that hon. baronet was also a clainmant. A Mr. Wilks,who acted as the agentfor MlrtCooke got possession of some partof the property, whiclh had becn held under Sir George Jerningliam by a man named Ficken. In whatever way Mr. Wilks took the possession of this property it was not novw the question; but it was retaken by Ficken in a way which, in his (MIr. Dernian's) epinion, was 1ot justilied by tie act, the Ist of Geo. IV. That act was made to preventwilf'ul tres- passvs; and, in his opinion, its provisions were not meant to eXtend to questions of disputed right. The hon. menmber tieni proceeded to detail the circumstances of the case of Mr. Flint, which have already appeared befoie the public in several shapes. The subsLtnce was thss-that MIr. Ficken, accompanied by several constables, went to recover possession tront Wilks. They broke locks, and took down gates, and succeetded hi taking possession of the pro- perty, and also of the persons of WVilks, Harmersley, and another, whoim they carried away prisoners. Tliis proceeding at- tracted a very considerable crowtd. There were 300 or 4()0 persons present, and tbough inany of the parties used very strong language, yet there was no violence attempted-no atteinpt to rescue, nor any assault. While these things were passing, intormation was given to Mr. Flint, who was at the time at Staffbrd, transacting business for rthe oration. Mr. Flint was an attorney, and Mlr. Wilks wvas hclient inding that his client was in custody, MrIr. Flint pro- ceeded froni his inn to the spot, and asked one of thie constables by what authonty he had taken Wilks into custody ? The constable said, that he had his authority in his pocket, and Pouhl show it afterwards. The warrant was afterwartds produced, and it appeared not to be a snceial warrant for the occasion, but a general warrant appointing thle party a constable. The petitioner stated that this was the only way in whicll he had intertcred. lie bad neyer attemlpted to interrupt the constable in the discharge of iis duty, and had taken no oiler part in the proceedings whatsoever. Indeed, this was proved by a very f ull report of the trial, whici he had seen. For this, bowever, lie wvas included in the indictment for a riot, along withl somne others, and tried. It certainly was a very slight case on which to find a man guiltv. The lion. mem-ber (Mr. Cliet. wynde) was the cimairiiian of tile sessions qn tIle occasion, and it was statedt that in his summing up to the jutry, which was what is called summing up against a party, lie sai(d there was no distiiiction to be made between the cases of the prisoners. Hle would not even acknowledge Flint as an attorney, thouglh that fact was adulit. tetd by the counsel for the prosecution. Ile (Mr. Clhetwynt(le) told the jury that the case was f'ully made out against him. The jury, wittiout hesitatiom,, returned a verdict of guilty a6ainst the pe- titioner anct the others indicted. k;vidence was then given to sliow that the petitioner had takeni no share in thbe proceedings ; that his goingr to the spot was altogether unpreisseditated; and that it was oc- casi6ned only by hearing that his client Wilks was in custody. In. deed, the learned chairman himself admitted the fact. However, it made no distinction in the sentence. He (lr. Denman) shoul(l here observe, that there were only two magistrates present on this occasion-thic learned mcember (M.lr. Clietwynde) and a rnverend di- vine. Afterconsulting togetherf'o5 sonieshorttime, sentence was3 ro. aounced on the parties: it was, that they should be confined for Tw mioiths to hard labour, which was now knowmn to all to cousist of the labour of the tread-mill. 'The hon. member then observetl, that everX if the conviction was founded on the fullest and clearest evidence, the crime did not subject the party to hard labour in the tread-mill. 'rhe petitioner was sent to prison, and there put on the mill, tbouah at the titne his hcalth was in that stato whict retiWrvd lhiw. wbolly utsflt for such tabour. He eremonstrated, antd It was only by the advice of the a urg",tmjtie was relea, fos this gevere r'oi a *fiket whtich htlutfitepted gko lvlattedtiont ef ~~~~~~~~~~~ a?Q e the peitionewVI committed to ratis~ The1Ir DeON van)w4i rathe suiprised t1 in anordfr fo It eeae ansepe itioe deialned un&h ti dethexi. rat o~bYtr b.ieesiso a, w aront uhiAliaft- ti he- ppttioer wi sonMt dres phrithm co .o mae~~gcn)lw4a rth-ere.s Tried hon mIemberloede'ota, that Setnretarn4f Stthe aistrae di f ntheo county seas held in the Januar after, and they came to a reoluition - no oiqieit h atclr f a e titiontr's - i o otki'n the ofTth mitikeo ofe bisliiiisirit hubtt to do ehany th !-eo oinn had done about a-week back, when a noble friend of-his sutbmitted a motion oqn thte confipet of ifiinise4rs, which was miet by an ainendmenit pro- nlounczi1g an-etlogium on thaLt conduct which the motion -went to impugin; in the same masnner the tnagistrates pronounced a pane. gyric.on the conduct of the hon. mermber (Mll. Chetwyode) on tire occasion alluded to. Perhaps it mig%ht be said, that a proceeding uv,n thissubjectwasalrdady eingentheCourtof Kin"' Bench,andt at he (flir. Demnman) shou~yrl&avedefetredipresentingil-, Flint's petition usntil.th0 event of'that criminal informaation was aseertained. Bat it wrould'so fouLnd thFt,from theLdelay used inmoving for the crimninaI 'information, ino tnaed could take place upon the suabject before the Summer assezes ; so that the petitioner had his ch6ice only to come niow. o 6 to wait until the next sesion of Parliasnent. 'The petition ,concluded -with the usual prayer for relief, and with-a Tecmmnenda.. tion shalt p0wers so despotic ak thiose which hadl beene-xereisecJ upo the pedtioner shoutld no longcr be intrusted to thte coniman onf magisraeet". Bur'there wajkone previous part of it which'impouted c-ertain dhotives to the honourable meriber for Stafford in what he had done,' which; as theyap ated in the pciition, it: was, right should be stated to) the house. Mlr. F.lt did asivribe the severity with whichi he hadlt~eei treat~ to a dllifirec whc existed betwedrn the hon. inein b t for S tafeit% and hsis (lIt.' Flihnit's) b ro ther ; an d i t fa r t Ier appearOj th4t thii brother, AI r. Abraham Flint, having been con- victed sorre'tine putckl of a trifling aiseault upon,a woman, had been stentenced by the yery honnourable mieimber against-.w~homv the petd- tinner now corniplsiined, to six months' impirisonment, and to a fine of 1001.; *kith sentence hadsubsequentlybeen remittedaat the recoin- rnendation of the right hon. gent. opposite (AMr. Peel.) The hon. and learned gent. after fuirther seating that he believed the hon. me9mber for Starfid had himself interfered to get Abrahamn Flint's entene commuted, ,at down by moving thiit Ihe petition should be Mr. HOSLME SUlIlN'Egopposeal the bringing up of the peti- tion, anti declared that no gentleman could act as a magistrate if lie waskto be subjected illegally to calunmny and attack. liedoubted noti that the honourable member for Stafford could give the fullest an- swer to every charge that the petition contained - buit the proper mode of proceeding, if any proceedin5 were necessary, was in the Court of King's Bench; and he certamnly would divide." tht house before he Saw tha petition brouglit up. .qr.CRRTWYNDE offbredbis prayer to the house that the peti. tion mighit be brotight up, and every assertion in it investigated. lie should feel himnself unworthy en sit in f'arliamnent, or ever again to act ass Inaiistrate, if he conseonted to its re,jection on any point of formi. if he dtid not, to the very letter, refute every charge that it contained, he wouild be content that the house should dismiss himi from it walls, and that the Lord Chancellor ghdrrld strike hiis name out of the commission, 't'he ATTORNEY,GFNERAIJ had no doubt that the honi. and learned member for Staffotd was well prepared to answer all the statements of Air. F~line-in his PetitiOn ; but thequestion was. whe. rther the lhouse would allow himn to an-swer those statements; ittd he (the Attomey-Genieral) hoped that it would not. At the Fame time, howeer,dinthe houht te hn. emiber for Stafford ought to b prclued romnotiingtheetiionpresented, there were sonic elcearaion init,andimptatons sotransparently at variance withtrut, tat h coud nt hineel cosent to pass over thiemi in silece.Wit repectto ir.AbrhamFlint, against whom the Ironurale embr fo Stffod ws spposed to entertain a pre. judiee,it wvas to tire interference of thjat lion. tr,emiber (tirst,with LordI Sidmouth, who tlhought that there was nio grouind for the exercise of mlercy, and next wpithi the present righit iconourable Secretarv, whoi lead been of aL diflitrent opiction) that Air. Flint owved the ciiiiigationi of a sentence which liad been passedI upon Ifini under the verdict of ajury Itiar, ear. Upo Mr.Abrahtami Flint's ill-treat. uret, herore hewoud sy un mre.Nouw, thien, what wvas the case an wht wre he cargs o th peitioner ? A certain mndi- vidnl haingcommtte a beac of irepeace, aclid beinig in thec custdy f aconsabl, M. Flnt ad en one of a miob of .506, who ndeaotird t resue hm. Te ptition suggested, thlat when lie hail been) brouight tirst bore a aitrate for this offene, thiat maigistratc bad refused to hindhnoe to the sessioni. 'Tust statement was ini the petition, althought the lhon. andI learnedl uinm. ber for Notting am a o etoe it ;, andl, like imaniy othier statmens intir peitio, i wasuntue.An-other suggestion in thec pettio, hatif e etiionr ~d ot riinalybeen mneant to be in. dic~nI ut ad sbseuenty ben poseute at the instance oat the lionurale mmbe forStaordhias-uggestion was contradicted uponoat, bythehonurabe mmbe forStafor, in thet Court of Kings Bnch,ondalsoby he aentwho adianaged thieprosecui- tionon he ar ofSirGcogc ernngfain. ff lie (the At- torny-Gncrl) ppoed he rlngin upof the petition, it was because contained calumnious. (hlear.) How could the hon. member tor Stafrord act but as hie lad done ? le was chainnian of the sesions. The ease wqas tried before a jury. in summiing up, be repeatedl every pointof evidence to the jutry ; and in his law, as he laId it down, all the magistra" on the benchi made affidavits that they cgred. (Hiear, hrcar.) Then, a sentence was to) be pionounced. In ta matter the bench had not relied alone upon itself. Alagistrates in attendance.-(this fact wras proved by Sir Os- wald Mloslcy)-mairistrates of the highest respectability, who were in attenan L,ha ;ber consulteti, aud'the sentencecronounced had been the result of their united opiniont. (Hearr, hcar.) Wlithi respect to the stntence,theni, if thehon.miember for6tafflord had been wronig, hiow were the rest of tht magistrates situated ? With, rcs pcrt to thle punishment, it would not kave been possible to sentence the persons indicted with Mlr. Flint t.o hard labour, withiout including lIinsintlie sam dgrce of penalty. tCheers) One word, however,upon the mode in which the punIshmient of " hard labour" had been iinfficted. The bon. miember for Nottingham had talked of thle tread.mill, andl had spoken of hard labour for three mnonths. Nowv, in tIre whole thiree muonthls the pet tinnerlhad work-ed in the treadl-miill fivelhours. (Hear.) alir. DENAMAN.-Dld the hon.-and learned gent. imean live hiours only, in all ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAI, eneant no more. (Hear, hecar.) After thiat, on at representation, he had beeii emnploycud in carding wvool anti spinning it, L1 licar," and laughter) ; and aftter that, upon a seconid representation, he hazd been allowedi to dlo nothing. 'rhle Story of hit, having been shut up for 40 days3-of his having been fedl oni bread and water, &c.--of' these matters antd others in the petition, the Attorney-general would say noticing, because tire lion, miemuber for Nottingliami had not touched utpon tieni. The whole statemients of the petition had beeni contradicted upon oath inl the CourTt Of King' Benh, b theaffiavit ot r. Clare, the agenit of Si- (+coge ernaghm, he urgon f te prisn, tire task-master of' The elarof wichthe ion,membr fr Notiga hdsoen in theKig aBech roeedng arseoutoftir apliatonof tirele- fendnts or ime o anwertireaffiavis fildaintter but tIre petitioner probably found it mnoat covenintomkhi state- tnents in the shape of a petition, whiere, if they htappenedl not to lie true, they carried tino leI cnseuece along with ttenr. (Cheer. Air. XVEBTIIERELopoe h hicrgirrg up of tIre peti tioci, considering that a eiinwa oh course by wlinchitire party, itf ag revd,sould aepoedd imr-ftJiEL, whio conisidre himself in sotne imesure avs situ,.- larly si(tuated withtirtfe lion. merirber for Stafford, would not detaini tire lhouse niore than a very few ricontents uipo ire qfc(uestion. The reirrission of scutence which he had thioughit hiimself enititled to mnake in the ease of Abralham F'lint, liuLd proecededi (it wats tire second ap- plication) uipon the interference of tIre liron. memciber for 8tafforet. Tire grounti of that liron. rirciciber's applicatinir had been, that a wit- ness whio hadl given evidetice uplon tire trial of Mir. Abrahiam Flint, had had hiu credibility shaken upon a suibsequent occasioni; and tire letteroft'he hron. tnenrber haud conehlu(ted in these ternms-"1 I feel f,ully justitietl, under stuch circumnstanrces, in nimploring tire Royal cleinrency for this unfortunate person ; and its he is ihow suffering fromn confinement, and hiis fairiily are in distress, I beg leave to so- licit youir earliest attention to his case." (Hear, hiear.) This was the pecrson against wliom the liron. iuneurbcr for Stafibrel was said to be prejtrtii d-within a week, a warraLnt had becir issued for his li. beration. (Hear.) Now to tire wae of- the petitioner: and first, to the charge, against himself, of delay. Tire petitioner hiad beeni convicted in October last, it Was said ;-it was not until Decetirber thiat lice (Mlr. Peel) fred ever lheardl of Iiis trial. ( Hear.) Ali. DENMIAN said, that he hiadl not beeni aware whren-tie case had reaeheAl the lioni. sceretary'. Air. PEEL.-Then why, did tire lion. and learned gentlemami conic forward, withiout knowing, to unake tire charge ? Mlr. DE~NMAN had stated the cotriplaini, as he found it in die MIItr. PEIL promcded to'state. dusatlire lhad first received the peti- tionepr's triemorial on,tIre 6th of D)ecember. Ilec had applied for infor- miation to the liron. rirember for Staflord, as the judge betore winont the indictinent had been tried, anrd he should hiave felt aslianied of referring to any othier authority. T'ireliron. nientber had not beent content with sendinig uptitis opiniion; he hadl sent up ttire whole case, with the eviderice andlhad said, Do whiat you drink fit." His Opinrion (Alr. Peel) hiad been that miercy could not cons.,istently be recoirrunended. Iirto tire reasonis for that opinion, he shiould niot now aetain the house by entering:. but lire thiought it righit to say thkat, irn his view, tIre sentence was a lenient one; and he postpiiretl fur. tltet detail until liesaw what bemcaeof the petition. Air. LITTLETON thoruglit tire cot.,piaints of the petitioner groundless. Thereccould not beanirore zealous, able, andlintelligent iraisrtetlItn Iris lion,.and learnedtfrictid, aigainst whiose cotictuct the peitioner complained. Re had somereigit to find fault withitIre mianner in whicht the hon. and learned member huad brought ttire peti- tion forward. Surely lie ought at least tolirave taken care tosee thtat alt die sllpga4ons were well grounded and supported by testimony or sufficientchiamater. Thzi on. and learned mensbrbr seemed to have identified Iirisgeif too closely with the feelings of die petitioner, and to have accepted, without due examination antd caution, tie clarges against hiis hon. anid learncd friend. The magistrates lIad done more justice to Mlr. C. Flint, than tie hon. and learned gent. had done to the magistrates. They at least took tihe precaution of obtaining a statement of the case from the Secretary of State's of. fice, and frad looked into the evidence with the closest circunispec. lion. Another ofitie masistrates, Mr. Clare, had desireti him to declare to the house, that ie was mrost anxioua to take Iris shame ia whatever blanmc might attacih to the conduct of tibe chairman of tire euarrer sessions. There WalS not a word of thIe chalrge in whichi this gentleman did not concur. The name of Sir Oswald Mlosley was anotherpldge of the propriety arid .justiceof tirc conduct pursued by the bench of rrcgiatraees, tItan whour there could not be a niore up. right and eonsciciltious man. hiad there been it different miesare of justie. dealt out to' ile. Charles F'lint front thiat whicl was visited upon bis five aecorilices,wh o were cncci in tbie lowest vvalks of life- shocsakers tailor, and cordwainers-there would lIave been just cause toe coniplaint. lie opposed thie bringing tp the petition. Mir. STURGES BOUItNE could irot consent to allow the petition to-.be brought up. Hlis objection was tliis-tbiat thie hon. acid learned uerenber tle ed no injustice attributable to the corruip- tion of thcniagisttates. ?f the petition did allege corruption, as the lion. cird learned gentleman did, then this was not the proper tribu- tial fbrhc appeal.- The Court of King's Bench was the court to which the. pvetioiner ouglit to have taken Ihis conplaint.. Tlrht geavasnez of the charge was not against the srclnrliary nature and ar- bitrary conduct-of diWe jurisdiction, but against the finding of the jury-.imattiritpou swhich the house could not erect itself into a tribuauaI of arp3^el, because thorontscqtenice would be the p3ost ca- arenjtinclvcOllierncC,r Rern"the bouutet wld b15ou2id, iii ft4irbeas, to oppotit.aius rad.i T~hec cud not, however, -be decided uintil the tiimWa Mal- hproper course, at present,would beto allow hon..ad lear ned friend to withdrawetheStition' till the allegationis shouald be Contlmeuponoat, an thn sow himn tofrresent it,again. ("1No,, f`rom the mninisteria benche)- Sir JO N WROT~ESLEV bad signed the resoluijon 'of the MaXistrate Passe Iin approbation of the conduct of the chairman anEsteoncurred in everY thing advanced by the Attomney.Gczn~_ upon the sarne subject. Ile had. Ito Weveir made one. reservation, which- lad not beeh atrkctly obseived-.,natnely, that the resoluti-on, shOuld,not.be- direcly published. His reason f6r thinking it unfit for pretenit Publication was, that the conllduct of his worthty and ex- celleut friend,th chairman, had been attacked in oue of the jour. na2ls (the Bri-tirsh Pr'ess5 a% we understood) irn a nianiner which he wouldt not stigmatize writh any particulareoithets at present, because it was likely to become the aubject of judcial dedision-he would onl sa tat heattckwas such as no person of honour and sound - felig culdsuferto Pass unlnoticed, or without calling for-the de- cisio of cout usfitiue upon his conduct. He could not accede to wthdrwingthepetition, becaulse the conduct of the ma gistrates, whic hethouht nimpenechable, vWas Concerned too deeply' itn the' discssio an he ssered,withoDut fear of contradiction, that in all Engandtle culdnot be a set of more mneritotiotta magistratre than hoseof th couty of tafford, hir H.WILSO wond ere at the proposition of the honotirahle meme brSurrev-that the house oughit not to receive the petition, if tre frfear thlat other magistrates should be attaLcked in some distant tinie with chrges of malversation, WhO were neither ortators no htoiin. The Attorney.Genral opposed the bringing up the Petition because he was preardtdeyhelegio,le (Sir H.Wilson)krnewhtothingof the Petitioni,and wishtduto lea-n its contents oy hearing -it f4ad. That Was the' right of the people of Brnglandi, and he v6 OUld nor allow this aEtempt to subvert it without oPPlosing it, and demanding, though he should stand alone, that thiere should still be access to the hiouse for their petitions. Mr. C. WYNN was convinced that this petition ought not to be received., It weLs the duty of' everv member to be prepared to v-ouch for the contents of a petition before presenting it to the house. (L-oud cries of "1no, no.") ilonouraLble miembers had no right to in- terrupt him in addressinig the chair, anld he called for its yprotection by entorcing the general order. lie contended that no individual memuber had a-right to present apetition to thebouse without pledging himnself to the consents of the petition (-' no, no, no"), that it con. taineil noibing disrespectful to the house, (Hear-, hear.) When hon. members were dSisposed to apply that kind of co-.tradicrion to his observations, they ought, at least., to take care to hear all that he had to say; it wyould be a much miore safe and ,iudicious course. He expatiared ott the general danger and inconvenience of allowing appeals fronti the jurisdictions of the county to the house, and u.pon t is prncilple opposed the bringing up of the pietition. Mr. BRIGHT'had nior a tingle doubt ot the rioth of all that hiad been urged in defence of the conduct of his excellent and very woty friend, the chairman of the quarter sessions ot Staffordshire. BuLt th,,rowing aside all personal feelinig and consideration connected wihti uject, he called upon the house and especially pn h country gentlemnen present, to reflect deeply howv far the treatment recommended for this petition agreed -with the right of the people to prresent petitions to P.,irliament, whichi right was secur&l to thlem by the Great Charter. Hie would assent to the withdrawing of the petition, but not to the opposition made to bringing it up. lie never would consent to so dangerous ain eneroacitmnent on thie people's rights. WVere they rc-ally- prepared to say, that be- cause a maLgistrate happened to be a member of the hiouse, that thje hiouse wvould not licare any fetitioni accusing i1im of mialversatu. n ? 'rite liott. gentleman saidl, that a imember presenting a petitionl, was bouird to take care that there was nothiing disrespectful to thec houise in it. WVould any one say thtat this petition was disrespectful to the hoiuse, which souglit the interference of thie auithority of the hiouse in a case of - ileged o ppression For whiat purpose did they sit tlhere, if not to Isteni to tie coniplain ts of the people? It was said that thec comiilaint in the peitinon, if true, was niiatter tryable by, the orutit nary jurisdictions, Ilie allowed tharnsightbethc inureproper course: but it was one thiing to deny the trutltiof it petition or the propriety, of' its appieal, anid it was, quite anotner to refuse to hear it. It didi niot foillow that thley mulst alopt, its suggestions, or thiat a nietabe inighlt not be prepared to refulte the allegations in it, or that thie hoube would not thirow it out. But hiow could( thiey know the value Ort its contents withiout first hearing it? Sonici said thlat it oughit nio. to hr entertained or received, because it waus an appeal front the coutmnoroi jutrisdictions, for which tbere was retticely in thue courts of' law, leC understoodi that a part of the prayer of the Petition was to alter an oppressive law. The petitioncr cuniphuiineetlitat leie ad suftereduon- tdet the oppression of thiat law. WVotildi Lie liouse, thierefore, refutse to hear him, because hie asked of thecii to repeal that oPpression ': The aillegations nlight be true or f'alse - btit lie offercth grounds toe liis compillaints, and petit ionedl for a remedy. All that was re- quired in the first instatice, wyas for the hiouise to listen,. It was ati appeal, not tothtir jutdicial, but to thecir legislative I unet ions. To refuse leave to being the petition up wa,s oppressive, lie hiopedi, thiat the co.ntry gentlieiien wouild at least hiave thec discretion to shlun the agitationi of a question of suchl dangerous coDnsequences a.s that which would be inev-itably involved in a refusal. Thiere was a safe couirse left for them, whichl was to allow the Petition to be writh- drawn. (Alurmurs.) Mr. C-ANNINGi wishied to know if the hon. and learned mnember was iniclined to withdraw the petition ? Mr. DIN MAN said, that somec of the hon. gentlemien who hiad spoken had refused to sttffer it to be witlidrawn; and unde-r those circumsatances he declined saying what lie would have done had the matter been left to hiniiscf. Mlr. CANNING wished rthat the petition could be withdrawn, If pressed, however, he mu.t opp~os tih br4a5-iog it u, On u gt swgte ground of its containing a pr-ayer for arti impossibility,-varnaely, thia thiehouse would rwcosideranod reversethe verdict of ajury. Mlr. PEEL saidthiat th,e hon. and learnednmember seemied to be displeaseed with hiim for not reversing the sentence of the quarter sea- siots. ithregad t hi owl iniviualfeelings, he could have no objctin t th adptin o tht curs bythe petitioner with a view to reison f te ase aiilif he ettion were withdrawni, the casewoul stad jut asfavorabl asbefore for thiat Purpose. ?ilr.5, ~ORTLY enteate hishon. frienil the miember for Surrey not to persist in liiis opposition to the withdrawinig the pet ition. Mvr. 11. SUMINER said, that thjis wvas so great ani abutige of thie prvlege of petitiotiniig, thiat lie couild not allowv the petition to be withldrawnl. The (AIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said thattittp- pecared to to hinliCite argiument brought forward by, thte lhonorable miemiber for Surrey wouldl apply, if the honourable and learned gentlemnan persisted in pressing tie houise to receive the petition, butt it hadl no aplcto if the lionou ruble atiid learnced genitleman wished tovithttla tePetition. ,)Jr. I)EN\MAN said, thiough lie was aware it Wau not quite regu- lar, yet hie trusted the housie would indulge hill withi a few wordi,. thidbee-n Supposed that lie lhailniixedu esnl elnswt tue statenucists of thle petition, but he hani stated no opinioni of any dhisputett facts. HeI certainily, did eittertain a strong opinion as to the trial aiid sentence,wliili heI shiouLel( never be backwtar at expressing. Tl'he possibility of a pectition containinig what wits false w,is rio reason whly the Hfou-e of Commons shoulld reject it. It wqas enloughi thlat LIIC petitionier felt Itinliseif aggrie-ved ; anititiftthe Petition a as couchied in respectf'ul languiage to the hou01se, and stated what tule niieniber conceived l it be a grievance, rvitli all ulcfetence to die righit lhonourable defenider ofth ie prj%ivilgc-s of thiat hou.se, it wazs the duty of siueisibers top resent siticht Petitions. It was nor titi answer to say thicie was a legal remetdy, and that tite petitioner was. to go aind waitt at the doors of ithe Court of Chtancery till all the appealst there were di3posed of. Againstship-iOney thie louise hiad enitertained a pet.i- tion, theugil tire Judges had given thleir opiniionis (hionestly for aught lie knew) thiat sh1ip)-onenY Was legal. It had been put to hinti, as presiding Sometiemies in a court of justice, h'ow lie shiould feel if' suc a et!on erepseetieilagansthim. lit truisted thecre was not magstrte is tat husewho oull object to entertaini a peti- tion itit ereimaine tht ay prtyhad been eitlher uintairly or unjusty treteti.lie wa, howver, iiig, seeinig tire teniiper of'thie Ironi, towithraw te peitio, an i e unit omu thisgrotind,..rliat hr fare thehoue wold stabishtheprecedent Cliznt such a peti- tion ought not to be receivedt. Tuie aluestion was thecn put, anid the petition withdrawvn. The CHIANCELL~OR of the EXCHEQUJER their miovedth Lat thechouse shiould resolve itself bintoa zicommIittee of'supply. Sir JOHN WVROTTESL~EY hiad riot understood thie CIisneellor of the Exchecqueronit a fortiter evening iii statilig Ilisi platn for the re- dluction of the interest on the 4 Per cents. to htave mientioned the period at wlitichthe tile finayli3Ylelnt wOod take place to ithe dissenti- carts. It wouild be a great convenience to the stckkholtlers to hiave sonnie idea of the tittle whten that would take place. hreou The CHANCELLOIR ofrIte! EXUIIEQUEIR saulrtersou tion Oiltttat pont w~ent to t1iis-that all those persoits whou did not agree shioutiSin" Ocitober be piaid one-third of thecir Stock. lie cer- tainly ha in(rit stated a3t what period hr would be conveniient to Pay oflf a further proportioti, because thatriliustdepiend on themoatis possess- eat by (iovernritent at the timec. What wvas nicant by tiere mention of a subsequent pAynient of 10 iler cent, was, that nio less sitint stiotthrI be ai ol. ORDINANCE ESTIMATES. Tieelhouse being in committee, Sir HENRY HARDIN'G E rose to move tIre Ordnance Esti- tnastes, and he was happy to ilifoniit de coutrmittee, that there was a considerable diminrition in every branch of' mte Ordnance Establish- miint. Int the last year itte total sulm to be expended was 1,217,9O01; in the present year it was 1,1 19,7741., being less by 98,1461. t-hati last year ; aicl if ftnns thlat suml were dducte~id the barracks, which had been transferred froitittthe Ordnanice Estirnustes to rthe farrack branch of the dlepartiment, thlere teotild remiain a real eintiinution of the Ordnance et 67,ttool.-Of rehiichi there wyas in Ithe Extraordinaries rite vry co I ileble sumn of .56,0001. but that very great sa,ving lie could not h'OPe to coils dler as perk)ruen, beasinit lastyear rite estiniates tor repairs Iirid been reducedt to rthe very low- est arnonlt r, cosset cihkeping the buildings its repair. Ile wol,r rfr,considtertwitleh t oh 55,LI00. as a suspensioti rather than a dintinustion oaf expendliture. Utider tile itetit of Utprovided, the itiuhl Sum of' 1,09fil. only was wanted for thjis y-ear. The sniall- ness of rite suns, arose front 'the new arode of keepiitig short accounts establishied by the Pilaster-Gjeneral. This result, was the miore gra- tifying, as this' itemi was one of which theeihone was always jealous, as it was one for whiich thlere was no estinriate. TI'le tlittee irens of Ordiisary,EXtrTsordinary,and Unprovadeti,compriseed the Lotal chiarge tot tire effective ordinance estilliateg, and fell below whtat ttire inaLnce counnittee of 1818 had thioughit the ordnisice coaldt be reduced to. This great reductioni liad been ellecteth by 234 clerks being reduced; antd ahlittugli a great additional labour hadi thus devolved up. on those who remarnaed to lio tre daty, yet to rticimi the gratuities whicl hadl been objected to were tdisallowed. The next brancir was the Barracks, in whicil there was also no ii- creasc ot cliarge, though there wvas a-i apparent increase. The vote was for 114,5311.-thie last year's vote was 100,0001.; so that there wasl rapparent increase t' 14,0001.; but 16,0001. ought to be de- ducted tor repairs, so that in the barraci branch there was a savitig also. Eleven barrack stations iad been reduced; and irt orier to show the coinusittee the saving tiat had becn effected since tdie eace, lie would tiforisi thieiII that ve hIad, during the War, barracks for 167,000 aen, which were now reccetucd to what was suflictent for 42,000 mets, being a reductiori of barracks fer 125,000 mcn. The expense during the war anitounted to *20,1001., siow thc amount was 1201,0001.; so that there was a total saving of ball a million. Tbielrisih p3rt of the vote amoanited to 134,0001.; in-this vote thevewasan excesu of 23t0001., towhich,adding5,Otl. for barraceks transferred,there was a real-increaseof 28hihOhL,which was to be attributed to thecxpenseofthe repairs ot trris4pe, Pitting the last uaehsr, # dosnhrllc of inspec- f flirIoa,e whc b o-ed th'h , Irodi 1ijasuppl of24tJPio Pt, an ~n durijng peace.., Thedul itsw~ *d e1'owell of their co'ne nv, this add 'tiua1ll ex re( br, e.ar.) Theiniwa;aIoo aimincreaseofteh0~ o6af~toresient to rew South Wales. and~~ Leonri e. Tj two itetns of bedsteis4d indadd ioalfoewould fullyaOif0 the'excemsot'the totitoLsssnriatstore brancht. jItaing tltil the whole oftbthe jreegrest branches of'the expenditue,h coDnclude by mnovisagthat th~e sunt of 47,2331..be grante oll ,~ jegty for defrayingt -the charge of the salaries:of the Sl5tr1 nn and officers employed ait the Tower and PaIl'.mall. Mkr. HUS1E sad it'was but juticte to the gallantofficer whu hsa jo.st sat d3wn, to acknowledge thit 'the estimnates now ont the t5Ile were muxch'better airranged that they had been hieretofore. The.nM_ lantofiar' -.~'*into the reportof the finance cqmpnittee, wo~igI rftoUwhtat 4 beexeet~'me6botlidepatinnLs a .hwould contenid hat they wete stil greatly above what they ought to be. He observed. that uh4 old stores were still b rooght into these sststiant6 though Ise hatd understood from the Chancellor of? the Elxchstiep' that they were tobe includedin the ways and tneanna That w55t~her noM bwith ave1wy estimate,- and he saw no reasion whty it shottll noerveod r th*eseestiinates.According to the preenrt inode,they onir sretoprevebt a fair comparison being maode by an 4mneees,ly dimninution of the sums total, beyond which many, personts never looted. 'rhe house wrould be surprised, periaps, to find:thit ti,e estimates for thse ordnancevwere.three times as great as they wi.-ej5 his (M1r. liume'sj golden era of.- 1792. Were there, he would ask, any circussstances in the state of the Country to *11arrat suth gcleat difliresicee? In big hu'mble oiion 'there was not. In 1792, the ordnance estimstes were 444,09t,l,in 1817, 1 284,0001. in 1818, 1,212,00ol. ; in 18-21, 1 326 0001. -n 1822, 1,?E44,0001. ; in 11323, 1,217,0001.; and now,11,119,691b. Hie would bAsethecommittee,wlji.. ther, after the report of thie inuldiary commiission which had been ex-. pressy appointedi to inquire:intonthese subjects, h e Wvas niot justifol in calling upon his.S1ajesty'sE3overnmncrt t comply with the recoin. mendations of that conumissio'n? The proposed vote for the expenses of the Tower and the Pall.rnall. establishmnents was 47.001. This, he w&as sire; mnight be reduced by at least One-third, fie had, upoal a I'onner occasion, -stated -the amount of the ordnanee establishinent in 1796, and had moved that thepvresent expenditorye should be- ap.. proximated to thatamnouret. Touaccomplish this objet,be proposed the measure of uniting fhe MwO departments, 4and thus savinig as once from 17,01 to 8,0001. annualy but itseetred,as well frpo5 hiis ill success on that occasioni, as from the present vote, that there was an extraordinary pertinaciryvin keeping up the arount. lnathe course of the lat session be hitd submitted w the house the pro- priely of doing away '~~iti.tthe office of the Litutenant..General. It was then objectea b a~ririht honlourabile gentlen1%. that tie business at the Tower 'co,ld not go on without toe pres;ence of that 'iffcer, and upon ths. ground it wras that the miotionx was refuted. He ( r. tirnme) would now, therefore, ask-, wbte. tItr LrdBersfod,the L'ieutenant-General of the Ordniance, had ot een bset fo hisi post the greater part of the year, and wheherliewasnotnow in Portugal ? 'He hadt heard within tho last two or three weeks, indeed, that another Litutenant-General hadl been appointed, buthe did not know wheth*r the fact wus so or not. The duties of the Licutenant.General had, lhowever, been performed during his absence, and this oonfirosed him (Mr. Huome) in the opinion he iail before entettjined of the practcability of reduction. If it could be eff'ectssA in one instance, it wls.. equally practicable in othiers, and lie called upon the house to try the experimrent upon the present Occasion. In the vear 17110 the foturth year of the war, it appered y th reort f a".oiuiit.ee f te houtieoif whiich the late Speaer ws cairmn, tat he ttal mout of the establishmients in Pll-hil an attheTowr ws 1,501.;now, in time of peace, it ws 4,0(01.It as iposibl, uderanycircounlstaneca, evtn if thecoutrywer te tmesricer hanit s,and sthe debt not onie quartcr of itrsnt aisiount, that sucea increase could be war. ranited. hiwathfistie weliad ee told thjat ouir expendi-. ture was now redutee tislwet pitchi,ad. it wvas nuw,therefore,tihat tile housemnusteonirwetrth vote ougiht to be reduced or not. If thley left a suin of 30,0001l. or OM,00., s~hich wouild be twice ther amnounit of the yea 1798, the cotuiisiitte wotull see that i its week (lhe whiole establishmentcu Aould be re-modeledti. The office of clerk of' tthc ordnance was, lie believed, indispensably necessary, and its dutics were ably- performedt; but th;rit of the principal storekeeper, Mimoe salary, exclusive of f'ees, amouintedI to 7501., uiiight be dis- pense.l with, by the remtoval of the wvhoiC- depot. 'While lie was ution; this stbjcct, he wouild statt thiat lie held in his lhandI a state- inent of the fees rec-eivedl ly the storekeeper for tlteadtiniision to view tie armuoury inithe Tower. He knew of no lapy'that justified Colo- nel Maclean, whio in 1806 raised these fe es fromt Is. to 2s, for each person. The saute charges were kept rip to this time, and appeared to produce a sutm of 400t. per annuni; Of this, 14s. in tlhe pound was paidi to the.princ Ip istore keep Cr, andI the remsainder was dividedI anuotigt other offcers. lie concludedI by moving thlat 10,0M0. shiould be rectiuced fronti the proposed vortes, whichi wotild reduce the amnount to 37,000., and wvould be tdouble the amtount for 1796. The amendmienti tea, then pter. Sir H. IIARDI NG E did not know exactly, to wliich point thne Isonourable sneusbee's objections applied-,vhetbier they were re- tpcctin- thie cstablislhnient. of tile ordnance, or conifined to the case nf theLieuwcnnit.tGeaeral. (Mlr. Mlunte said, " Both.") He would tell the comunsittee that, in shte Pall-rnall department, Out of 187 rclrks, 27 hadbeen reduced. The labour which was thrown upon the Dthtcrswas very great, as -well fromi the diminution of number as front the aLdditional business of the barrack and cotuimiiasait depas tMoenra which hadl been tranisferred to them ; and yet the hon. nmember pro. poed to reduce them still farther. As to the objectioni made by, tite ho nourable memiber respecting the old store-s, he begged eo woint out that this was the niode sto .--.1i ..__ ary nuance eommaittee, anti nau een atlopted. in consequence of thiat recommtsendation~ Xjittt respect.* to the absence of the Lieutenant. General, he could a-ssure the comnmittee, that althoughi the noble lord nall been unavoidably absecnt on his private businc's, the conduce of' Jie Board of Ordrnanci liad been perfectlY justifiable. In the first Ilace, an to that nmore immediately affecting the chiaTactezr of the noble lord in tilia transaction, it was well known that the noble lord rotntiandedI the Portuguese armny, ansI that upon his return fromi Rio Janeiro thec revoElutionary party thien in 'power, very wise- ly for themiselves, peTrhaps, prevented Ihis landinig. N1then afterwards an opportunijy ofibred, for his retuirning thithier, and he Was summoned to do so, he asked leave of the ilaster- Gecneral, who grantted it, and he wenat to Lisibon in the beginning of October Inst. At the end of November, the Master-.0leneral wrote to hlint, requiring his returni by thet latter end (If Decenmber, for the purplose of itischa 'lng the dutie-s of his office To this lettex, ordt Berefrdrplied, by senditig in htis resignation; andl informing the Miaster-General, thiat the state of his private affairs at Lisbon rendered it imspossible for himi then to quit it. As. to the dtities of his office, they were twofold: first he had to conduct tie business of thte departmevnt in the absence of the N1aster-General;i and secondly, to oteforini Iils own dluties as a board officer. Since hisr absenc thie first hiad never oc~curred, forf the Itlaster.lGencral had always beent present. Somne inconven:ence had been felt as to the second; but the business hiad in no case been suspended. A great part of it had been transactedl by the Master-General. and the officers of the Boardi, particularly hiis bonouirable friend behind, whlo with sonlic others hatl, tr ihis knovwledge, bedn engaVe for a ca-sidera- ble t-ime betweeti eighit andl ten louts a day. ( ear, hear-) They. hadi done tilis withi the utitiost cheerfulness, it, the hiope o'itthe no- ble lord's. return. Thie hoti. nietubeee wouldI ask, why the appoint. nient of a Lieutenktit-General was not made in Decemiber last? ae, ~~Sir H. flardinge) replied, it was because liis lortlsltip's siervices lied beeni so vaittablte that the 11aster Generatl kept hiis rfesignation ; antid lie, as well as thie other officers, preferred *to do this duty themr- Melvt'n While any chance of his return renamned. Findling, hlow, ever, last week, that thiswa Wag ill tinrcertain, thte Master-General feclt conipelled to accept the resitenation; - andl tile name of Sir George Mjurray (upon whose distinguished mieritsit was unoccessary for hiint then to ettlarge) hiad been submsitted to his Majesty, who had been Tileased soptoi,nt thatIgalant officer- to tihe post of L;ieutenant-Ge, )ce.The lon. membeor's proposal to traiisler thie establishment front Pall-isiall to thec Tower, or f'roitt the TIower to Pall-mall, was totally, inipracticable; it wvas jimpossible that bothi could be accon- modxated inceither place. As totransporting the stores to W'oolwich, this hiad been alrea(ty done, al realrded the Ordnance, in conifortmity to the 8uVeestions of the mii tLary conmmittee, and only tile arins and itgter stores remained at the 'Tower. As a saving of 90,01.1s been effectedt since 1819, and tlhe vote for this year was dhtiusei n htions upon the expenditure anti not upon the vote, he really thugtthbon. imctibet had no righit to quarrel with it. (Hecar, tr. M r. hlM lineed, andl the hous d,civided, 'wheii the num- hers apperd For Mr. Ifumc's amendlment, 19 1A;gainst it, 119 I Mfajority, 70. Upon our return to the gallery, we founmi the Chiairman putting tile vote of 7,02931. for the departmients at Wloolwicht, which was agreed to. Upon tlhe niotion that 35,841. be granted for the statio ns A homie and abroad, .)Jr. IlUME said, that unless the Covertmnsent wouild com-pel C!orfu and Zante, and olbher places t th~q lQnittn ses, to keep up their own establibliuments as thecy iwer able to do, and as by thie treaties thecy oughLt, he did itot scee how any, reduction couldk b2e ef- fectred in this it.cui, The votes oif 4,1431. for niiaster-gunners, and of 67,W~41. fot she c sof' snicn appers, and minors, were then agroed t6. nthe vote of '247,0203l. fbr thie regiutient of artillery', MIr. If UMIEcould not hells repeating what 1%c ha wsi4l,on other branh o sie ntioal iliia,butthepropttin Wbil; h i,bore to the rmywastoo rea, ad th manerin whicih it was brigadled was ar to exensie, ie dd no couiuiain of the artillery, lHe admiitted ds the e most efficitist body of troops : but they might hv b ousytc o good thing. Thxere was a inuch grea~ter pmpoaonor niury lal waR neccssarY for Gireat 8riLaiu and ber colonies; and thie reductioli of two or three battalions would create a savitig of 300,0001., which -as as v erly large sumi. But if it were only 30L,0i., itgought to be attended to. Sir SI. HARDING ( defended the ptopriety of keeping a large body of artillery ot toot. Itwas a corps of all others the most difli- cult to raise. If a war broke out, it could not be created in a uo- muent; and tiserefore it was necessary to have a considerable force bf that deescriptiont in readiness. Ml\r. HIU,lE said, he foundled his objection on the stateinent.of ministers, who had declared that there wasno chanceof war. He denied that a war was at all likely to occur, and therefore there was no necessit) for such a force. Motion agreed to. The next *uotion was for thse suns of 29,5901., to defray the ex- penses of tihe brigade of royal horse urtiUery, rocket, and riding troops. Mr. IlUiUlE wislsed to ask a question of the hionourable ee- cr=tary. Sir Beiijasssin Bloomfield hlad, it appeared, been brought back to the corps of' tie toyal horse-artillery, undler very peculiat circumstances. Ile was suppobed to littve-left the eorlib some yeahi ago, on balf-pay. Ile afltcrwards wcnvabroad as -assibassador l ut ot thde death ot the contimianding ofiteer- be was ininiefistelyiifted over the headb ot officers who were aeting with the corps, antlplaeed at its beadt although it was impossible for hifh .to atteOts top any of the dutieseontieuteed with- the situation. ' Th3s was sta;ted t4elsevery great grievance. HIe didliottutos whetnetit was so or not flsor.he wished to have snfbriuk'tetyoiy. cii th ubject, ' ',si SirHM HARDN&G 0 i4MN at by the rev0ultion6f` 181J A4 'w, arranged that the officeis ofi ghorie-arttile y Nshoatl auciespt&iAe brigade,-not according to their reiezmcissl'ran .l tis 1t`1oia - rnitijev?c te thkt bcevrak intX tlthearmy. Iss'1l88thie'7Tasitie. 7'. v -ti, - I - s * -.. . . oftcb a de too),.-P Be t 'ElOol~r~ ~~,saahis rank in t3je Aarmy,the iIe ntxt en~- titeiit'oeh~c~n~Iad;and as4 the 5ilaxter-Oeneral fl h. tti flrel~ti~i.wde~b5Ye retrospective effibct ityjl eeec o that 'officers should succeeA tto battlos.cod -,intO:ttii~aikthtee orPS, coupled with their geitea set. ~lur.lM E assd. lhe :indel ttoo-d a new systemn haLdbesltl * AdoPted'in elbe artillery. lndividuals bad bet uoemt e <Outy,ft ortder tha othbrs, mighit receive promotion inta bps ~He wish&d to leowi when , qat practice first took placethpor* * thereb r eq"Cutnee; anda bioa far the public expens a ~i thrby indrkiaed sell their commissifts-was gra,tted i.'st year, for the purrpose of.as- * u[sting thie deplorably low state utjf promotion in that corps, without iflcreassnF the *bslie burdens. It was admitted, that a. certain ti&tn. beoatlervoffieers,wvho had served 20 years, might sell to ffi - cars of the line, they being uinatta chaed otlcers on half-pay. Ten lieutebAneomlonelT on ajr atishree captains of the aitillery, sold their commissions, which weire P*Lrchased bM'officers of the lina. Thesaving byeb rease of half-pxy was, 2,463L, and the increase on he ~ssy ists~2,5fl4L, leaving a balance of 1011. Fifty-five Ofilersfth ~ctiUry,and 14 officers oFo the army, benetitted by the plan attheexpnseof lOll. (Hear.) * Mr. flUME wis-e.a simnilar planivwas tried in the marine corps, where he chace ofpromotion was equally slow .and, deplorable. * ~Sr 0.CLEK Bad, ameaure f te same nature as that resort- to i thecaseof he atillry oficr,wast in contemplaion for the beneit f th maine ffiers.Butforthe illness of the noble lordI at theahedof th Adiat,i ol,before this, have been car- rie into effect. MIr. HUMIE complained of the custom which prevailed, of con- stantly appointing Admirals to be Generals of mnarines, lie would venture to say, that there was not one marine officer out of 99, who di4 not think it a great hardship. Sir I. COFFIN said, the honoura'ble gentleman who now sp?oke so4 feelingly of the marines, hadl complained, when an in- Crease ofthat force was propoed, "' that we were fgoing to turn the navy into an army." That force had saved the country over and over agan W'hen the mutiny broke out in our fleet, what couldt have bedone but for their steady lovyalty ? ANr. lUMIB said, it was; on that very aCCOUTA that he thoughit they, Ought to be better treated. Their loyalty was proved, and he he, leetwfor their exertions at the pernodwhich had been alluded to, that they were ionouxred withthie appellation o "'RoyaL" Wlhen he spoke ofthe manines on) a former occasion, it was not against -rewarding the men that he exclaimed, but against the nium- ber. There were 9,000 marines now, and he should like to know how many of them were afloat? They were too numerous for ouir navy in its reduced state; and such of them as were not em. ployed on oard, were in reality an addlition to the standing army. Hae contended that they were not promoted sufficiently. There were 700 or 800 promotions in the army and navy for every 8 or 10 in tho mnarines. Sir I. COFFIN said, when he wa'i on board atD?ortsmouth, there never wax a marine ashoare. The navy eauld not do without them. if t_hVy did not assist, the seanten woultd never be goL on hoard; * theould be in at one port and out at another.(Luhe. 3161oon agreed to. * The next motion was for the sum of 1,7881., for defraying the ex- Penses of the Director-General of the FieIld Train.-Arreed to. ?,4.for defraying the expense of the medical department of the ordilance.-Agreed to. ?4,670 for defraying the expenses of the establishment of pro- fessors masters, &c., of the RoyalMiilitary Acadeniy,at Woolwich. Mir. UM.E comp'lained that no reduction had taken place in the corps f cadets, althoug hho ofthat kind had beenbheld out. . ir H. HlARDINOgEssidr,a goreat reduction hadbeen Made in the niumbers of those who were under a course of instruction. The cadets suffered greatly by the change in the artillery depart- me nt~,which prevented them from getting commitssions. In the lat twoyea-s, thlerd were 108 vacancies in the artilleryvservice, by- which 80 cadets, now sinemploved, might have been pro'vided for, if a Clhange had not takecn place. Air. H UME conceived that acorpsougbt not to have been set up, for the memnbets of which no commissions could be procured.-. Mlotion agreed to. ?76,524 to cdfray the expensme of certain cxtraorAinaries in the colonies and islandsd of Great Britain, deducting X35,MG) for old stores, &e. Mkr. H UME thloughit it wvas not right tlsat the islandls of Jersey and (iuernsey, froni whifch the public dlerived no revenue, shiouldl be a constant ta4x on tuec country. fie also objected to their deafray- inJg the whole ef the ta-xes of Canoa. There was a charge fur the lonian Islands ml these est1imates, which appearedi to him to he exeeedir.gly unjust, lie then adlverted to the powder-nitills at Fevers. ham, ana observed, that every pound expencied on them for thelast six or seven years hiad been throall 'wy-oIo agreed to. I,O9P1L for the xtraordinaries of he Ordinance Ofice, not pro- vided tor.-Agreed to). ?8,36 for the Office of Ordnance in Ireland. Air. HUMAE said, hie observed a charge of 9,0001. for defraying the expense of tlic milit-Ary suirvey. Ile wishied to know What pro'grs was isiade in lise work, anid liow lonig the expense was likeiy t'o continuec? Sir H1.11ARDI NOB said, one-thiirti of the survey of Great Brit'ain had been prtinted, two-thirds of the whole coutiLry hiad been sur- veyed, and the entire triang-ulatedI survey had beets fini,3hed. Tile completion of the wo.k would lake tW *Years more. After a fewv words from Sir J. NE%WPoRT, WhO declare-d that a suirvey of this kindl would be utterly iinsplicable.to Ireland, M1r. GOUinBUsN, Air. D. GILBERT, and Co. TRFNCH, the motion was agreed to. On the- question being put, that 1,4001. be voted to his M1ajesty to defray the fees paid into the Exchiequer on the grunts for the ord- niance, Mr. H UME rose and asked the hon. Secretary for the Treasury, whether the country was ever to be released from the absurd practice of pay-ing its own servantLs an extra salary for doing their own busi- ness ? It was strange, indeed, that thie ' reasury could not disburse r1 '1 1 u i a -A th b- sid_es this vtof140.nal 01. isel 1b~een-v`oted- awayv i'ii the- army estimate forr the payment of these same fees. He conssidered suc~h pzyment to boadeailloss to the country, and also tobe the oc- casion of eat complexity- in the accounts of the various depart. Ments.tabadudmtDothe Chancellor of the Exchequierto say, on a former occasion, that the whole subject of fees taken by the Treasury was now under cons-ideration. Alight lie ask what was decided on, with regard to these particular fees? 3[rS BERRIES gave no answcr. Mir. HUM E.--" I bon,e I am tohave an answerto mv question." Mir. HERRISIS said ihat the Chanicellor of the Exchequier had beer obliged by itidisposition to leave the house and that the sub. ject referred to was one'ot' sucli difficulty that fie was not himself exactlyprepared to answer it. 'he honourable gentlemianimust re- collect thatsomne of t1hese fees were established b.y patent, and that therefore the perxons to whonm thley were payable had suchi a vested interest in thiem as, prevented their immediate abolition. Othiers of them wvere paid on other grounds, to whicli it was unnecessary for him to allude farther thatn to say that considerable delicacy oughit to be used in meddling with thiem. With regard to the complexity of' tspublic accounts,of which the hondurable memberlhad comiplain. id, he could only sajiv that It was the earnest wish of' the Qhancellor of the Exchequecr to simplify them ji muchl as possible. Air, HluMB, in reply, observed that if the Chiancellor of the Ex- cheqener would granthmn a committee next mnonthi, he would go into the business of it with great Pleasure. As to the patent fees, lie had -no hiesitationi in saying, that hie shouLld recommnend. theni to be boughit up. Me1. BERRIES said, that the hon. mtemiber for Abertdeen did not appear to be aware that inany of thes~e fees were very beneficial to the public, andi absolutely miade up a fundI out of wliich many aoustingent services in the Trealsury wrere paid. The subject was of a complicated nature, andt lie therefore tru-ted that the hionourable nie-mber would nor be surprised that he did not give himi any furthier answer in the abs,ence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Air. HUAII -.U long as9 thsese fees continue to be taken, the house will never be able to learn the exact expenditure in eachi de- patttment of the piublic service.-.The grant was thten agreed to. On the quesion that 114,5311. be granted to hisr Mlajesty for the expenses of the ordniance barrack department, "Mr. HUMlE said, that he coutld not allow such a aunt It5 be Ivoted without sonic considermtion. Trhehouse was niot aware of tite situation int which the country wvas placed, from its being studded ,all over with barracks as it was at present. In the year 1797, wheii we hlail as manY troopsq as at the present moment, the whole e~xpenjse for barracks Only amounted to 29,OOt1. for Great Britain, and 12,000 for Irelanit. Hle thouglit it wrong that the extraordlinary z,ara on which things had been carriedI during the extraordiniary wvar in rvhichj we hadi rceently been engaged s4hould be stili conti- nued duri-ng aperiod of profound Peaice. Thelhouse was now called upon to vorse astun, for these bhrracks, which wvas much above the aversge sumn 'voted in any year froill 1817 to 1323. Hielhad for. snerly contended, andl he titust stsll persist in contending. that if the 'Goverunoent were determined to keep up its barracks in an un- -tenanted condition, it ouglht to keep thieist up at the least -po5-ible expiense, and that it ought not to pay lst. or l0s. a tlay to barrack.'eXMtttrs, when it could find hialf pay officers willing and evegn joyful to) perform their dittie.s at 5s. a day. He was of opinion ihst ctie. counatry ought to he relieved froniitsite payn nt ot hialftt te .kurntvote4 for thiso"irpose. Ilielikewisecobjected to tlhepatyment of &5,()W1. fir qse repair of' barracks. WhIat was there in the state of E~pgland whiih reemuired suchi a. suin to be e-xpended on xuch an-ob- jece at tfhe prdsept momnent? fie could sece no reason for granting 7,001. fob ireciing a 'riding,sclmool at St. John's-wood. aLfter tl%e sumns whfeichbead been expentle4 oni the ridling.scliool at Pituilico. Unless he received a satisfactory exT.lss.atiei re-garding the expense incurred for thie replair df barrMCKS, h stllaytnent ofbarractr-rnasters9, and the riding-schiool at St. Jtnswooi, lie sol eolgdt offer tgde house some aniendnisent on tIme present grant. Sir WH ARDINGE replied, th4t with regard to thle expense in- curred in paving the barrack-masters, it wasiinil3ossible to find per- sons,of respectability to fill their situations for a less remiineration than that now give-n co them. As to the ttlifebrent barracks whiichi were:stillkePt up thiroughout else country, he couldI only say tbat it wa ncesaythat they slhould he kept_in proper repar 'heti m3ates ter matring those re patrs were all nmadc under tIe inspection of tle egineetr d, partnment; anid if the hon. gent. could show thiat there was any thilng imprToper in them he soultl be readly to turn his attention im,netdiately to it. The ricling schlool at St. John's wood had been erected for thC puripose of giving an ecduation on the same plan to all the officers of the arny in every clepartisietit of it, Only 6,0001. lhad been expended-in the erection of this school. The other 2,0001. was for the repair of the Ordnance barracks, whici had for soile time existed at that place. Cutlonel DAVIES contended, that therc were barrack-masters in many places Where there outgl]t to be no barracks. Indeed it would hiave been cheaper to have burned 'aany of them down than to keep thernip at the present expense of repairs. Sir H. HARD I NGE begged to add to his former statement, that rnanyhlalf-Payofficers hadbeencosiipelledt to fbrfeit part of their hadfrpay when they were appointed barrack-ntasters. SirW POltT asserted, that lilt y of the barracks in reland had been erected inl mlo't itmprover places, and omght now to be discontnued- As .seversal of theui had bcen built only 12 or 13 L ears ego, thetc coufd hIave been no occasion fbr spendinig so much money in repatrung theim, had they becn properly constructed iu the Air &U5?sI4FlBURN defended tic condiuet of the Irish Govcrn. psencton keeping up the present barrack establislisuent in that coun. try Puring tlm ar there had becn barracks in lrclaud for 87,000 men at resent tere were only barracks for 36 000 Imen - 3r Ht)BHOUSE wished to impress upon tilc housYe the consi. drantion, tihat this vote was extremely likely to excite much opposi. 0ont frons the public. Titat part of thIc city of Wesmirnster which wasoJorcsinedintely in the seighbourhood of these barracks, vws emetremtehy iive io the questionl. Hecould assurc tihe noble lord (PmsImerstont) aud the lhone Jbaronet opposite, that petitions-on the ;m eeepttlC barrack eysfemn in WYestminster tvere at%thid7llbnvent; prepaTiitri~ allpalts of -that city. It wra a beliepaii, iiertefdre, siUl~itak wthou ~iinsrvcondrtio.n, -He bbncutred. indeed,, tntire1~~' in ~ by hikgQ1lintVfticiMi&;fbr he be. ieve.stWas ut oo rue hii1~ as o p6&sA in these'days to at- ~dicindinacnsttutenlqustln.(Hear.,) It'1814 or 1815; s~.fss hanromlh o2O ote wee tkeni'tbishbuseon' the %ub.. jiof thie-barrack department: but now it waswith the greatest diffi. .ulty that-thev could.get up a stingle division.' (!ai~t~titer fwos. the rtinisterial benches.) Suchn was the truth, andI hi oriest1y avowed it. If the house thought it of no con'iequenee to watch over that-dan- geroiss evil,.the consrant presence, of soldiers among citizens, wfe, sur ancestors were ~so jealous of, it bad better be confessed ai-once.1 The-se qtiestions were now treated ais mnatters of cours; but hebegged. to Tensind the comitnittee, that In this y#.ar there was an excess in the bakrrack estimate over thtat of las%t year of 14,0001. The gen. tleyroen wouslilbe astonished to learn that since the year 1815 the aggregte carge for barracks in Great Britain alone amouittet to, 1,299 0001. (Hfear, heir4i Since the same -perioad the aggrfgite charge for barrackst in Ireland aldne was 1,314,0001. and uowarda. Thsit appeared that in a time of profouind. peaco tbere hid been paid, in the couirse of lit,.. than nine years, for barracks~ in the Uniited Kinj;dom of Great Britain and Ireland, 2,6i3,000O. (Hear hear.) This had been the chuiT e for. effecting that which it hiu been predicted could never be effiected in England. How long woula thle House of Comnmons-compliantaii he was afraidl hie niight with. out any, great breach of decorum tant' it-how long would it tolerate suich expenses ? He recollected well the time and the occa- sion upoti which the troops were fizst brought into the Ring's. mews ; and he feared it watt quite clear that they could have been 'brought there for no other purpose except that of acting, when an emergency presented itself of a sufficientfirnportance,sgainst the people. (Hlear.) WIould any gentlemnan on the other side get op and %ay that it was with any other motive? IfI he would, not onilv his (Mtr. Ifobhouse's) fr.ends aroundI lim, but those who sat on the opposite side, would laugh at him. The time might come, however, when the Govemnment would find that the spirit whitch n~ow seemed so little alive, might. be awakened to a mense of this griev- ance, and to such an extent excised, that it would be found very dif- ficult to control it. The same people, be it observed, who had lately been described by the ministers of the Crown as a religious-, pa. tient, andlloval population. Thesebarracks were aweapon in thehands of any ministers, and might turn upon themselves. Independently of the eonstitutional question at issuie, the people of Westminster, in thist neigh;bourhood; were very mnuch annoyed by what he (Mr. Hobhouse) presumed was necessary-military d isciplinie: he alludedl to thie beating of drums at an early h6ur of the morning, in order to drown thie cries of the soldier. He alto begged to repeat whart he had said in a precedingt session, that he very much doubted the right of the Crown .to appropriate this mews at all. Tinie out of mind there hiati been a suffcient passing throughi tkem by the public to establish a commnon law right of passage. By closing these mews, the propertv of individuals in the vicinitv hail been very much injured ; buit vhen he shouldI present the petlition, which it wouild shortly be his duty to lay before the house, lie would argue the matter more at length. Sir H. HA RDINGE said, that the whole of the lionourable gen- tleman's speech, exceepting the constitutional question he had started, wasi fouanded in mnistake. Insrtead of there being an excess of charge of upwards of 14,0001., there was in fact a saving of 2,0001. The whole amount to be paid was 114.5311. ; antl under the abstract was a note that the ordnance barrack expendliture in Great Br.itain, amountIng to 16,6001., had been transferred to this estimate for 1824. Consequently this was to be allowedl for. Upon the constitutional question, he should not endeavour to cope with the lionouirable member for Westminster; butt when'that hen. gent. talked shout the separation of soldiers and citizens, he begged to remind him who as4ked for it. Surely he knew, that in the reign of Charles 1. the citizens petitioned the legislature to have the soldiers billettedI upon thein. (Hiear, hear.) If the hon. gentleman wouldI allow himn, as a soldier, to kusow any thing about Llie matter,. hie couldl assure himr, tnuzt to billet soldiers amonF the little puLblic. houses that abounded in the purlieus of Wiestminster would he thie very worst thing in the world. Would he wisli to send them to learn' lessons of patriotisin,or good order, or goad coniduct, in Tothill,fields or in Petty France, or in the atijacent necighbourhood,which swarmned withi the worst haunts of vice, profligacy, and vagabondlism ? If the soldiers were to be sent there, thecy wo,ild associate with the very dregs of' the metropolis. Surelv, thien, it was miuchi better thiat the barracks shoiuld he maintained.- Sir R. H ERO N admitiited thie nisehuiiefs sug-gteste by thle hion. baronet; hut the whiole dlifliculty that he seemed to feiel.arose froni thie unconstitutional purposes of keepingr tip in thie empire a large standing aruziy in thec timie of peace, and in the metropolis a large bodi' of soldliers to overcoimr its populationi. Mlr. I4-lJ l E, in explanationi, said, his only dlifference wvith thtc lion. baronet was, as it) the amount of the vote. The sumn to lie voted rar 11 i,5411., from which was to hr deductedi, it wass saitl, 22,0001., on acrount of the ordniance barrack expenditure in Great B3i itain andI Irelandl. Bint the statenienit at page 29 of the estimate, wouldi shiuw that with this 22,0001. thecy hiad nothing to dio upon the present veote. Thle total sumn to he expcndcd in 1824 vais 136,5311., consequentlv there waLi an increase as stated by hiis hon. frienid (Mr. lobliouzse)$ wleo was spcaking of the aggregate of the twvo years. lie (Sir. Homie) should propose to redutce the vote whtich had been ptit fronm thte chiair to 100,00111., suchi reducition consisting in the aiim of 7,0001., destinedl for a ritling-school in St.J.olin's-wood, seeing tlimt there were plenty of other riding-schools that wouldI answer the sanie uroe; and in3 7,0001. from the allowances to barrack-mnasters. IThe total beingareduiction of 14,0001. The comimittee then dlividled upon Mlr. liume's amiendlment- I Ayes, 3Sill Noes. 9PSj Majority against it, 57. Uponi thc vote of 182,7951. fer thie comtuiissariat of stores departmnent, Air. H UME begged to have sonic explanation of a chiarge of 40,0001. on account of New South WVales, &c. So large a vote for any colony sihoulul be the subject of a separate item. Of course this chiarge was not included in the specific estimate for New Soutth WVales, and he wishbed to htave soiuse explaniation what part of this 40,0001. was to be dievoted to New Southi Wales, wlhat to Sierra Leone, and what to presets to the Incdian tribes. Sir f11. H-A RDI NGE coulti not give a dletailed answer to the hon. gentleman's question. As to thte stores to which the vote re-lated, it h,-d csres o Idm moaet adviy,,lbie andl bent-ficial for the public ser- vice,that they should be furnishbed from the comnmissariat departmenL. Mlr. MlABE RLY objected to the needless expense occasioned by, thRe various storehouses in different parts of the imetropolis, They, ouight imlmediately to he given up. Woolwicli containeti every pot- sible requisite for supplyi'ng the necessary storest n ry navy, or colony, however extensive or important, and upon any emiergency wliatever. Soine conversation then passed between Sir II. HARDIVGE, Mr. MIAREFRLY, and Mlr. 1 u Atc, upon thtesubject, anid thec motion was agreed to. Tihe CHIAIR MXAS reportedI zvogress, and asked leave to sit again, andi thec report was orderedl to'be receivedl on )Monday next. U-SURY LAWS. Sir R. IfE RON b--gcd to a,sk thie learned sergeant( Onslow) whethier at that lste hor, ang in the exhausted etate of the house, nisn meber haing ttededalradynine hours, lie propiosed to go int the ommitee tipn tls usur lasrpal bill, llt was real. ly tobe hped hat he larne sereantdiidrenot, seeing,. the vast impotane o th sujec, te etree axiety of numearous oppo- nentsto th measre, ad theprobalelengthi to wvhich the dliscus- Mr. Sergeant ONSLOWI thoughlt if the lionourable baronet had been present on Fridlay last, he would not have asked this questiomi. Hie h 'IIthe postponed it till to.day, upon the exprLss understand. tog that it shouldi now comec on. The hiouse then divided, wvheni the numbers were- For going into the comnsittee, 111 I Against it, 31 1 Majority, 54. Omi re-entering the gallery, we foundt Mlr. ROBERTSON' on7his legs, tracing the existence of tistury laws upl to the tinsi of the ancient Romanis, end opp'isitig thie re- peal of those now in force in this country. The borrower, as it seemed to hint, was always a fit obiect for protection, inasmiuch as that lieacted fromi necessity ; thie lendler had no suchi plea. It was a-gross error to suppose that thiereivere no usuirylairs qin France, or HollanitI, or Germsany ; no doubt the laws wire evaided occasion. ally in those countries, as they were in this; but byno mecans to such an extent, assumie lion. gentlemmien imiaginedl.!Lct the houlsel100k at India, and see the state to whichithienativess were reduced by the wcant of a elseck upon thie inte-.es.t of money. WhIere usury was once permittedI to get footing, there teas no endI to its encroaici- mlenits ; monev was lent, not by the year, but by the mionths, the wee'k, andI th&d'(ay. In Chinia, whiere initerest was limiited only to 3:1 per cent., the wecalth ives all foundi collectedI in a few hands, ant(I thie mass of' tile people were groitnd dlown to the lowest state of mi. nery anti degradation. The iwitnesses exanijinedi before tile commnitt,,e 11( liadahnot ull of themi beemi interested palrtics ; buit thiere was not one whio spoke to) any iniconveniernce from tlle laws as they now stood il Mr. Rothschild was dlecidledly of' opinion that there wouild he da.nger i'n their alterAtion. It w'as itistancedI as a proof, that tlrwn pn the mioney tratic could( do no harmi, that thie Interest wasno loer than the suns allowedI by the state ; but thiouigh this- was no dloubt trite as regardled tilt transactions of great capitalists, the lesser trad'er, it was well k nown, diii not now get his discounts u~nder five per cent. The lion, gent., after declaritng his conviction that the couintry had not the slightest belief thai the houise wouilti pas8! the bill, sat doiwn b, mnoving thiat it shouldI be read a second tuine on that day six niiontlis. Captaina 111ABERLY suipportedI the bill ; and was no more in. dlinedt to limit or initerfere with the pirice of money than he wouild be to fix that of aii y othier commodity. The laws as they now stoodl, every one knew~, were practically evaded and be thioughtI the value of moiniey wouil,l always find its levelwaeotding to the supply andi the dleimandl. Mat. AltXcrnsai IIEYVUsA'l'E decildedly opposedI the projected iilessure, and( resil a recomiimendatioii frtiii a commlittee of the house, dlated -lhe 30thi ot MIay 1818, pointing out that timie as a mrosit fitting oiie for th repeal of tile laivs in question. If that recomnmendation had been followed, he would Put it to the lhouse what woulti hbave been the mae two moniths after, when the change was miade in tie state of thec currency. lflie hernlof no inconvenience from the laws as they stood. saw no petitions for their repeal. The witnesses examined before the eons- mittee above stairs--what were they ? Lawyers and capitalists-no people else. Besides, lie, generally speakinge, attachied no great weight tot neevidence giveil before conmmittees. When a gentlemian brought a question forwardI in thle house, lie was; peeniittedI probably to niame hila own comnmiittee and then tie miembers of thtat comiejittee call. cu witnesses whosc views coincided with thicir owvn. lic litd himself been asked twenty times to conic and give evidence on particular conmnittees; and if ever lie had stated that his opinioii differed fromi that of the frienl apply- ing, the answer ha(l been-_ Oh, then you had better stay away." (Ficar, antI laughter.) He foresaw great difficulty in the conmon transaclions of life from the wcent of a fixed rate of initerest. Guar- dians and trustees, who had not got lhigh ra.tes, might be challenged wuitli neglect of duty. Besides, tie question was not,how wvould the nieasure afrect the great nionie?l men, but thie small tcaler who wanted accommuiilation. If a farmer went to a country batik for imonsey, what was to prevent the banker from charging him anv izi- tercst lie pleased ? The imian, perhaps, was known but at thai one hank, perhaps there was ' no other witbin a considerable distance. Again, with reference to the arrangenients of Goveniment, could any man doubt that if thue usury laws liad been repealed 20 years back, the national dlehit would have been four or five millions greater thani it was ? WVe were in a situiation now in whicil the relteal of the laws, perhaps, wvould do no great harm; hut we should not count uporn reiuainzimg in that situation for cver. As to authorities, they were not all on one side. There was a writer of the nanme of A .ani Sniith, whiose talents were onceas niucis renoswn- ed as any - - Ahiese whie ha(i since written in favour of unrestricteel usury. -There was one evil'whicbl he admitted in the existing law-it imposed its penalties wcith great'inequiality. The fine was treble thc amount ot' the loan,so that the line for taking 201.fho much npor; a loan ofl,0001. would be 8U01-., white the fine for taking 501. too tusuci intetest on 100,0001. would be 300,000L This enortnomu inuqualit3'twishighly objecetomiatt2. oppress)ve, ant absuird. He plededtinmself, should this bill fail, and no other muember teotxnp the su10-edti ohring iii a bill fotr the moire: equiita'ole a'Qjdstuilets of the penaltie of usury. le mnight be asked wliyhg did noItutod'lil~ bid iaie s'voveal1rtberii?cb; t; *'re was 9 Rreat differcnce in:hls fppreiensioli-betWleeitldoInt X*i Twith laws winclwere essentially *ise and.*ell.foi,det1,, ahi delgtaisrids- a Mr.'C W. W: lYyNN attribated the d "sJt uD1 r'l t and antiquitgyof whiehvrwere so loyd snted to the spirit fmed_- coing1dtettref5er;nnleenwhiclhfiotmetlyregu l& id oth ern` Oother legislation. As to the merit 'of antiq'itr'the usury mustshare it'in common with the lawm which gtntished ill the moiuhers, wheI ther nearlv or remotely related, of hithi3ho baa corpnittedl a parti cular offetec. In fact, they were ben9lth t te,erdlightened' spirit of legilation wbich characterized tbe- pestnt age. Thit' they were m anly inoperative, was certain: tvery orqe codld- produce instances to prove it. He would content holxself wtth'one. }{e knew a gen- tleman upon, whom a mortgage- of- 40 years' 'standing was about to' be foreclosed; and. thotigh-3 fee simnple to secure' the money, he could not rise 20,00.- 'Upon it eXcept by atlnuit at 10 per cent. As .to authorities, he' did .nnt place much reliance uionseparate opini6si. -ElHe' o4l4 not' 2eny the' emi nent talentsof Dr. Adam Smith.' ?B%t he tnust in candour con- fess that his argument was for evetoverturnedby Alr.. Jeremy Ben- tham, in a work of as much ability 'ats' ever wss displayed by the head andl en of any man. He was convinced that the time was come for the abolition of these alisuid 'siatutes which incumbered the books. As to the constructin of the committee of which the hon. alderman had coniplained, he d, id not know what more able and fit persons could have been called to' it then the' eminent solicitors and. thoe T wh admost eOxpgeftepJeeinthdortro'ing. transactions. Mr. CLCRAT stongl objctedto ugingthis measure for- ard so lace in the evening, throughta thlin and exhausted house-a measure wh-ch he would be bound to say was second in importance tonone of the public interests. As this mrasurehadreceived the corn mendation and encoursgemnentoffiveof his iAlajesty's ministers on the last occasion, it was a greatpity that the bed not lent the house their assistance in the present discussion. Ifthe bill wat fit to be carried into effect, it ought in short to be made a Goernment measure. There was nothing which the house. could do which would more deply andl extensively affect the commnaiity at large. What was it that was now proposed to them ? To alter a system of legislation which had been continued with increasing success dswn to this time-which had operated a legislative teduction of interest from the time of lIenry VIII., when legal interest was fixed at 10 percent., to thertign of Queen Anne, when it was lowered to 5 per cent., each succeedingstatute containing express recognition ofthe wisdom of all the preceding, and the ceuntry manifestly growing in prosperity in proportion .as the leFislature was successful in depressing the Tate of interest. rhe right honourable gentleman opposite showed a wonderful degrce of' faith ip this new proposition, consi- dering his general dread of change or innovition. As to authorities, he alto ha some to quote, which might serve to keep the 27 persons who had voted as foolishly as he was said to 'have done, in counte- nance. Dr. Paley, in speaking of them; said, that the policy of the usury laws was to prevent the too rhpld accumulatien of wealth with- out industry-to enable traders to borirw`inonev on easy terms, to carry on pursuits which would- be plrofitable to the comimu- nity, and to secure the: powet of raising money at mode- rate interest for the Government. He could bear witness that this measure had alreadv greatily excited the country. As to the case mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, hoev would this borrower be situated, if this bill should pass ihto a law? Instead of 10 per cent. annuity interest, he would have to pay 10 per cent. on mort- gage. As to Holland, undoalbtedly the evidenice showed that usury was restrained in Holland; and they a'l very well knew that there were usury laws in France. The only precedent which he knew of, was one of ominous import-that of the French Convention of 1793, who resolved that money. was merchandise-and the confusion into which that one rcsolution threw that confused country !-he would not tire the house with the descriotion. It was enoagh to say that the law passed the 7th of Anril, ana was repealed the 4th of Ml\ay. In like manner, should this bill pass, the hon. and learned sergeant would be renowned with posterity, and all the lenders of the present tiimes. Huzza tbr usury ! This bill wMould be the signal for a general rise of interest, and the road would be opene for the fuill career of. avarice_sordid, pitiful, base, mean, hateful avacice. The simplicitr of Rve per cent. would be scouted-extortion wouldl cease to be a vice. and solicitors who now reftused to mingle in such transactions would be compelled to lend their abilitics to the binding of tile most un- righteous bargains; the most remorseless usury would be as reput- able as the profits of productive andi advantageous industry. Hfe claimed at lcast, if tic bill should pess, that it shonla be made a Giovernmcnt measure, and that it should go thirough a committee of personis who wouild apply a more trying course of examination to it than any to be Found in the evidence before the house. AMr. 11 USkISSON said, he could not conceive that it was at all the duty of lis llMajesty's (Uovernment ta take tihe measure out of the hands of a gentlemican wlio liad brotulhit it forward vear after year, amid was cimairitian of a committee appointed to inquire into the sub- jeeL It was one on whlich mcin mighit difter, wvithout deserving any opprobriouns namies, and he had come to a different conclusion from thec lion. meinber for M'areham. The obloquy which atpreseat at- tached to those whio exacted more than the legal interest, was, under the present system, necessarily paid for by the lender, who required harnier terms than if no such obligation existed. Ile was, therefore, firnily convinced, that the law as it stood was op- pressive and injurious to the borrowers. The opposition to this measure scemed to came principally from the landed in- terest; bat ie was satisfied titmit in a course of years these laws werc moreinjurious to that interest than to any other. Heat- tached so much inipertance to tile change of this law, by which the value of money was tied down in this country, that if the gentle- men who hatl iuortgagcs at S per cent, would be satisfied withi a clause that they were not to be affected by this law, he would be disposed to agrec to it. I: was said there wcre usury laws in Holland and France; buthe wouldask were those laws enfbrced ? Was there :ny power there fur the borrower to recover three times the amount of the money lent, in the shape of penalties? The hon. gentleman (<Ir. Calcraft) praised the laws passed for the reduction of interest from the time of Henry VIII. to the reign of queen Anne, and he (Llr. Huiskisson) hail expected, in consistency with that argument, that he wishled for an act to reduce the rate oF interest to 4 per cent. but those laws had not forced down the rate of Interest-in fact, they had done little more than follow the market rates. He could not under- stand the argument that money was the only thing which paid no taxes; undoubtedly gold and silver wrere not taxed, but income, whvether it was derived from land or from capital, equally contributed to itle state Sir RTOBERT HlERON was against the p-oposed change of the law. Ile was assured it would be ruinous to the landed interest. Al r. T. WILSON said a few words against the measure. Sir .JOHN SEBRIGHT was favouratle to the measure, and begged, as a landed proprietor, to return his thanks to the hon. and learmted gentleman for having brought it forward. Alr. BARING supportedI the measure, on whiclihe had never en- tertained but one opinion since he had been capable of forming an opinion on such subjects. li liad no share in bringing the measure before the house, bu: lie enitertained a firm convictioll thiat it was for the benefit of alU classes of the commu- nity, and he should therefore give it his warmiest support. bhepgreat argtipient of the night appeared to him to be tliis-that the orrower would be at the merev of the lentler ; but there was no more foundation for such an opinion thain that the buyer of corn *vas to be at the mercy of the seller. Did they not find, ill fact, that at the present moment tbe lender was obliged to come down from I to 4 per cent.? Upon tite treedlom of capital depended the freedom of all other branches of trade, and if the house were disposed, as they appeared to be, to return to the free principles of trade, there was no branch in wvhich it was so essential as in the circulation of capital. It had been said that money lisel been sent to India, and 10 orIl ier cenLtexacted forit. Butivhathadbeen theresult? lVhv,that imterest of money has come downi there to 5 percent., and the people of India had dlerived a great benefit, which thiev could not have had if there had existed any restrictions. It was said there was a want of capital in Ireland, and if no one shall have more than 3 per cent., then capital will not go to Ireland. AMr. Alderman Hl;YGATE explaited. Tuie hoase then dlivided on the question that the Speaker leave the chair, when there appeared- O For the iilotioII, 4X I Against it, 32 1 Majority, 16. On tor return to the gallery, we found the house in a committee on the bill, and after proceeding some tiiie, the Chairman reported progress, and the house hiaviBg resumed, obtained leave to sit again on Monday. Tue olther oruders of the tlay were then disposed of, and the house adjouetieat .ALF P'AST TWO O'CEt.OCt. llOUSE OF COMMONS, FAtDAY, FEB. 27.