House Of Lords, Tuesday, ...
The Times, 1824-05-26T00:00:00

&'ILU IVKSt5 t1AStNUELLOR, presented -a petition from the operative wyeavers of Dublin against the silk bill. It was the santie as that which he had recently withdrawn on account of' inform-ality in the manner of'attaching the signatures ; and, though the bill had pasLsed the house, he thoughnt it righnt to pre-ent thi3 petition. After some obswervations by the arl of LkVDER1)ALE endl Lord HfOLLAND), the petition was. laid on the taible. Lard. HOLLAND Presented - petitioni from the 11agh~istrate of the county of' Lancaster against the comnbination laws. -iLod ship obser-ved, that he recollected one of' those laLws having Pas'sedl duigamoment of great passion and prejudice. He believed he 'Was the only member of either bouse of' Parliament who opposed it, rand it was vwith great satisfaction he found that persons of in. formationi ini all parts of the country now concurred in condemning all suchi laws. L,ord ArT.I'rsoLP, M'r. BTLOGDE-;, and others from the Cowi. mona, brought up several bills, viz. the coiunty courts hil), the Iris!i transfer dividends bills, the Irish tithe compositioni bill, &c., wvhich 'were read a first timne. L-ord CLIFDEN isresented thiree petitions from certain Freem-a. uons in Ireland, ag~inst the operation of the secret societies art. Hie also pre-sented aspetition from the Separathits resident in Lime. iick and Enn.s, and mnoter from the Separatists resident in Cork, praying that they might be placed in the satme situation as th'e AMoravians and Quakers. The noble lord quoted instances of great hardship and suffering whichi Senarati3ts had endtured in conse. quence of theiT objection to tak-ing oaths. JOINT STOCK CO 'ilPAN11ES.-STANDING ORDERS. The Earl of LAU-DERDALE rose to move, that tke house be summoned for the Purpose of raking into cobsideration the standling ordets, with the view of proposing an addition to their bumber. The object of the standing orders he intendedl to mpive would be to providle a:ainst mischief which was noaw going oni with respect to joint stoCck comPanies; atleast in so trasssto talke care that the compa- nies of that k-ind shouldi not be iiliorpoiatea without an assturance of their possession of a suitable c-apital. This was particularly nece8. esary with regard to all tucb basociations. Those which had for their object the tnalin~ of canaals, aqueducts, roads, or bridges, must al- ways have a certaini amoust of capital in operation to enable themn to carry, on their Wo;ki; h ut that was not the case with corporatiorns for charitable pur"oes or gas-miaking and some other purpose.s,because with respect to them it was possible that no part of the subscriptions of the individuals belonging to the comp-Any might be paid. He Intended to wnove the adldition of two resolutions to the standling orders-.onie relating to bills for incorporating cornpanics by act of Parliament, the other to cases in wlinch coimpanies already incorpo- rated by royal charter applied for an extension of their privileges SBy the first resolution he would propose that every bill enabling pesn to make any turnpike-road, aquedu-ct, turnel, canal, or bie;every bill for lightIng, Paving, watchingK, or cleansing any city or town, giving tthpesnthrein mentioned the right of suing or being sued ; and every bill tor any other purpose conveying to any number of Persona such rights, should after being re-ad a first 'time, be referred to a committee, and shoul1 not he read a secondt time until that COmmitee report it to he proved that fourth-fifths of the capital of the said cooipany is paid up and deposited in the Banik of Eniglanid, 'or invested in exchequer hills or other securities. The object of the second resolution would be, to order that no bill brought in for granting further privileges to a companiy already in- CorPorated by royal charter, should be read a second time until it be proved, on refer-ence, to a committee, that the debts are paid, and that the individu;al prTOnrietors have so far paid up their suxbscriptions, that four-fifths of the ~apital is deposited, anti in the possesion of those Who have the mnana.gemnent of the company under the royal charter. .Their lordships 'tere ordered to be summonied to-miorrow, to con. si4er these resolutions. The Earl of DARLINGTON presented a petitioni from Win. chelsea, in favour of the county courts bill. EXCISE OFFICERS' OATHS. The MNarquis of LANSDOWN rose, in pursuance of a notice -which he had given last night, of his intention to move for a return Of the oaths taken by officers of the excise, with the view of ascer- raining whetbrr any instructions liad been issued to the Board to die~pcnse with the acts of Charles II., on that subject. He uvderstood that officers had been admnitted to the excise withouxt talking the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, atid thoughi this certainly was not a proceeding to the principle of wvhich he was disposed to object, he wished to know under what authority such a practice had taken -place. The noble marquis, therefore, nsoved that there be laid be-. f'ore the house a return of the oaths now taken by officers of excise under the acts of the 12th and 15th of Unarlest II. anid copies of any instructions relative to the taking of such oaths which may have beeni issued since the year 1822. The Earl of LIVERPOOL briefly, explained the circumstances to which the noble Mlarquis had alluded. By the sct of the 15th Charles II. chap. 22, it was required that all persons holdiog offices in the excise should, before entering on such -offices, take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, and that practice had consequently prevailed. In the course of last year, however, it was foundrneces- sary to make an arrangement on this subject. Considerable alarm ,was fband to prevail in Irelsad relative to those oaths on the part of persona whio had been reguilarly invested with situations in thie ecise in~ that country, and who might be transferred to this. No regular instructions had been issuied" fom the Treasury, but in con- sequenre of the representations which had been made to him, it was thought desirable that some arrangement on the subject should be xnade. He had therefore given directious for the preparation of a bill to regulate the oaths to be taken by persons holding cer'tain Offices. In the mean time all persons who had not taken the oaths required by the 12th and 15th of Charles II. were indeminified by the enuiual act of indemnnity, into which a clause had for that pur- pose been introduced. The Mlarquis of LANSDOWIN observed, that thle act of in. demity was a measure which always passed as a mnatter of course, and no noble lord could be aware of its containin4 so important a clause as that mentioned by the noble earl. For hts part, he couldI nort say whether any alteration had been miade in it. .The Earl of LI V ER POOL s-aid, that the alteration he had de- scribed was the only one whichl haul, been made ini the act of indem. ir.The recita of thle act of Charles II. relative to the excise, whicMh had been omitted in former acts of indenioity, was inserted in the bill of thsyer It was, however, as he had stated, intended to introduce ath riscular at fi'r regulating oatahs of the nature in qUesti4n. apriua c Lord KING, from the experience he had had, couild nor he very confident of th'e noble L-oni's success in this measure. As it was One fauvourable tO Roman Catholics, he was afraid, if thie noble earl brought in his bill, that he would, as he had done on other occitsions suffer a complete discomfiture, thjrough the efforts of' his noble Pan leaned colleague. The situation in which those two noble persons Stood, ws very weU ll u-trateil h? a clsisal utto he a lately beeni used in their lordships hosice qoa-o hc a DitUtin ipernntcuss Jove Crasar habcf. -Now, if the noble egri was really the Casar of the Cabinet, why did he nor compel those over whom he liad authiority to render to Cew.a what was Canar's due'? Why did he not commnand the votes of that house ? Unless be did this, the redeunt specfacula manee mnight not be always very agreeable to himn. He would probably one day find his adverse colleagues assume the character-not, as the noble and learned lord had once saidl, Of giants refreshed by wine and sleep, but by real victories. The Mkinister must take upon him. eelf the authority of a M"inister, and call together his troops by a stroke of the pen; otherwise by a stroke of the pen he might himself Lbors , ,axinzd . and DATL2zLEy spke, as we undlerstood, in support Of the motion, but their observations were not heard below the bar. L~ord HOLLAND had heard the noble earl over the way assure their lordships, that the irregularity pointed out had been in some Tnsrsure corrected by the ind emnity bl, or rather by a stew clause introduced into that bill, by- which Roman Cath6lics would be enabled to hold laces itt the excise. ISo far, well: but to him it waswod wfu Uat the guardian5 of the law and the church both in that house and elsewhere had been about while this was doing. 'What had become of their vigiance for the sacred structure they, professed to maintion? How come they to allow, not only some of the stones to be shaken, hut the very cement which held the whole of the itaared structure together to be thus clandestinely carried away?F In fact, Mlinisters had by this mneasure done that -secretly for tb'e 4ttrrempting Eo do which openly James 11. was expedllet froma thie throne. hiowthils businessbhad been nanaged insacabinet in which r.oble lords tremblingly alive to all auch questions sat, he could not comprehend: but it was certainly not easy to tell where the supreme authority as to this question resided. That seemned aL problem of as difficult solution as the inquiry into thle seat bf the soul. With re,gard to their lordships' house, it hadl sometimes been supposed that this eura divina pervaded every mnember;, and sometimes it had been attributed to the brains of the hOuse, but that he doubt.. cdi He had sometimesi heardl it saithttisudfo those benches opposite (h i aos,widchati issede fromn occasions well filled, thoug~h bowhmpsl, wthichwere on someio that it resided somne where inithe iidle ;btweei a ob :Fud y ra]could not pretend to say. He, however, sensible that though to him and perpions out ofodoors all this in4ht be matter of diversion and pleasantry it must be to the noble eairl any thing else than amusing. Hisrioble friend had by a quotation alluded t6 the fate which tielsRioble earl mnight expect:r but those who were beat oni every question, whio were cuiffedi and kndeed by their co]. leamesies, mrust have fourndcut before now that they performed apact in vey dsageeblespefecrlu. othing could ho more incon.. sistnt hantheconucewhih hd ben pn'rsuted with respect to the proeedngnowbrugh unerthe ntice of the house. When nioverhcirr ha, in contitutional and publicmanner, lorahis t aler he awrelatrite to the oaths taken' by ffiers rsos wh wre lwastreibnglirgy alive on such luestions, and who forboded danger from every change, great Or smnall, loudly opposed the measure 2nd defeated it. Now, however, when the noble earl wished to do the same thing se- sretly, he bad only to give a hint to--the clerks to introduce a clause into the indemnity bill. After hearing this, and re- collecting what had passed last night, it must be dificult. for their lordships to refrain flrom laughing at each other. What be- came of the oath of supremacy now, which noble lords but yeater- day thought so indispensable? After the storm which this question had raised last nivht, it was a strange specLacaIUs to find the oath of supemacy treated wth the greatest indifference in the morning. At the same time, he was glad that a svstem so thoroughly bad was ehanged, but the alteration ought to he openly made. The Earlof LIVERPOOL would not foDlow the noble lord in the extraneous matter into which he had entered, but would endea- Your to set him right on this question which he appeared to have mis- understood. lVith respect to the act of indemnity, their lordshivs knew that it was passed every year. NVhether that mode of proceeda ing was right or wrong,he would not then discuss. t twas sufficientI for him that it had been for a century past the pTactice of Parlia' I mcnt. As to the particular oaths in question-namely, those taken by officers of excise-it was certainly a most extraordinary circum. stance that all reference to them should hitherto have beep omitted in the act of indemnity. Could any reason exist why the law respecting the excise should notstandou thesamefootingasthatwhich related to the customs ? It so happened, however, that this had not been the case. The inconvenience,probably, had not before been sensibly felt; but in the present situation of the countrv with sspect to the reve- nue laws, when a change of officers was frequently recurring, it was necessarv that the practice should be altered, and that an uniforn law shoald be established. Lord HOLLAND did not consider his objections affected by the statement of the noble earl. The act to prevent dangerfromthe em- ployment of Popish renusants, from which all those laws sprung, imposed three distinct tests_-, the oath of allegiance; 2, the oath of supremacy; 3, the sacramental test. It was to the last of these that the act of indemnity was meant to apply. It was framed for the pirpose of allowing time for taking the sacramental test, but the oaths were to be taken on entering into office. On this point thelaw vas positive. rrMany persons might be scrupulous as to the taking the sacramental test,who had no objection to the oaths and the act of inltetnnitv aftbrded them relief. The test act, as it was comrson- ly called, allowed time for taking the sacrament, but none for tak- ing thle oaths. And the particular acts of Chatles ll. which directed the oaths to be sworni, did not authorize anv person belonging to a public board to permit the officers of his department to neglect taking them. The indemnity act might exetcse those who had not taken the oaths,but he.wanted to know how the omission t* enforce the oaths on the part of thecommissioners was tobe covered ? lHe rejoiced at the change of system, but let the whole measure be brought fairly before the house. Let it be seen whether an act of Parliament held to be so important had been executed. When the retuns sliould be mrade, those noble lords could not fail to be indig- nant, if they found that for years, oaths had been lispensed with, the administration of which they thought necessary to the safety of the state. Their lordships had repeatedly heard asseverations ot the necessity of these laws. If it was now admitted that they could safely be dispensed with it ntnust be feit that in depriving the persons affecied bysuchl aWsoftherightof serving their country and their KRing, a.dtestable clime had been committed. This expression was the splilt of a report of a commsittee of the house, of which Lord Somners was a member. Ilnless, then, their lerdships were pre. nared to discredit Lord Somers, and their ancestors, theyi must allow that a most detestable crime had been committed against the Catholics of England. Its wastime to do away with such gross injustice. The Marquis of LANSDOWN did not think that the act of in. demnity would cover the commissioners, because it was distinctly stated m thn act, that where parties were known to be Popish recu- sants, those v;ho permitted them to hold office were guilty of iiisde. ineanour. Could any doubt beentertained as to this clause beilg in. serted for the purpose of excluding Catholics P, He would therefore leRve to their lordships to consider, whether it was right to do that clandestinely which he was certainly willing should be done, but which he nust contend ought to be done openly. The Earl of ROSSLYN supported the motion, arid observed, that if persons whose duty it was to enforce the law consented to its contravention, there could be no doubt of their being guilty of misdemeanour._The motion was agreed to. Earl BATHURST postponed his motion for the third reading of the Newfoundland marriage bill till Friday next.-Adjoumed. [The bill for restoring honours to MIr. Drummond, mentioned in esterda procedings, refers, we understand, to the peerage of ntrathaltan only. Tlie title of thieKIenmure peerage is viscount.] _ 1OI,SE OF LORDS PTT?r,n- 1r.-0