Parliamentary Intelligenc...
The Times, 1824-03-16T00:00:00

Earl GROSVEiNOR presented t-petitions from Chester which prayed, the first. as we understood, for the Tspi l of tm c acts of the 5th and 6th -of the King, relative tolicences ; ilic second, for the repcal of the duties on bcer. Several petitions against negro slavery were presented, viz. by Earl SPENCER, from Shepton Atallet bythe Bishop of'EXETER, from Truro; by the AMarouis of LAxsnoDxv-, from a Iace in Gla. morganr sire, and from the&borough of Penryn, by the Earl of CAst- NsAIvoN, from a place the name of which was nor heard; and by Lord CLIFPDEY, from somc place in Comwall, and from Leicester, signed by 7,000 persons. L d Lt EN IhRISHt TITHES. Lord CLIM~EN said he hiad still another petition to present- oneof a different kind front those just laid on the table, which came from his own country, and on which he thought it necessary to say a few words. It was a petition from certain parishes in the county of Kilkenny, praying that the act for the composition of tithes might b* rapealed. He wished to inform their lordships that that measure had totally failed to prodtuce the effect expected - in consequence of the averages being talen at too high a rate. For the barrel of wheat of 20 stone, the lowest pricc was takertat *25a., and the, highest at 44s., which made a rmcdiuan price of This was very unsatisfactory, and consequently the nmeasure never -wouid ain_ swer the views of those who introduced iL Another point of objec. don was the jurisdiction to which disputed casos were referred.-. No- thing could be more unjust than tryingtithe questions in theBishop's Court. Their lordships must see the necessity of having the aver-. ages struck on a moderate rate in Ireland. The weight of two churches pressed on the loins of that poor country, which rendered the burden of tithe security felL Peace there never could be in Ireland, nor seeutrity for this, until something were done for conciEiation; but to -tis subject he snould call their lordshipes attention on another occasion, Their lordships could not too soon take steps to make thatcountry what it was well calculated to be. come-a mine-of wealth, anda rightarm-_.in facteVest Br:tain. On the motion of the Earl of DAtnRLEWr, mcveral accounts which had been produced relative to Ireland wvereordered to be printed. SOUTHI AM~1ERICA.- The Marquis of LANSDOWN pished to ask the noble lord op. p6site whether by this tible his Maj.esty's Government had -eceived any awswer front the Court of Spain to the last deepatch of Mr. Se- crotary Cannin in the papers laid on the tablh. The Earl of LTVERPOOL had no hesitation in stati;g that as yet his Majesty's Govinment had received no answer tothe despatch referred to bv the iloble marquls. The orderofthe day for summoning tbeirlordships was thenread. The 'arquis of LANSDOWN now rose, in pursuance of the nOtiCe he had given, to propose to their torslships an address to his Miajesty for the recognition of the independert States of Spanish America. In bringiog this subject before their loidships, he was conscious that all he could say was very imperfect, compared with the iraportance of the object he was about to recommend. - If, how- ever, he foutnd himself oppSested with the magnitude of ilte task hie had undertakeir, he, had this satisfaction-that he new felt no rotom for hesitation in bringing forward the -measure he had to pro. pose. On the contrary, if e felt anyhn for which he ought to en4cavour to find an excuse eiter toahe in hese or to hitnsel', it. certainly wag not precipitation ; but rather, he muit acknowledge for delay. For that delav, however, he could account by assigning 3everalcauses; but he thought it would be safficient, on the present occ>aioP, if le reminded their lordships of the situation in which the :AffaIrs of Europe and of S pn had for some, time been placed. The events which had taken plce in Spain would, he appre'eonded, plead hia excuse with their lordships for not bringing' intodiseussionaq uestion so materially connected as the-present witlt the intcrests of that cotntry, while- -the' nature of its goveru. ment wwadinsettled. Ris inclination to suggest the measure he was now about to recommend was not, however,-of recent origin. It was now four years. since he ventured to throw out some hints for the improvemrenet of foreign trade, as a means of relieving the country irn a situation of considerable difficalty,and-tn point out the propnety of-removing tboeeesfrictioos- by whieh;commerce was fettered_-an ia.vlce which hq vShas 2ppy.tofind wast now to be follbwed by- those who had the means of enrryihg it into at time he ve~tnred to recomin'end to tbeiFlordships'ittationoftil -pJoices f( Zou.tba diitca 'anid to atotee-rtbee Ifits which the;ri te c bemg adtnittefTd. l2flcn ewnstt 1ile1 iepend and rcieti bei aetoelyand. reotsosyithem and alohte.ifope, ifey iroin d t Ot tOenale .hemto nsitat thereittos o amlt caatndcommer -frute, n ha b papes n h tbler60coA-ntmed,he Mq; e deb,astmoeqetion~ewao wbhethe t aSfatn -couldhae ato,proi.50er ofreconquermg thStatera so h i Ipdf S~anih Govrnn*t4 to" whicb: an ana we WMOAePcevO aa. prsenthi perfct indepn itOesusPendforetirato.in frop of. herdoblinlv teir reesttheirp ntlh,Rtbj0Ctolo t,eur,nOW lwbn er ahe 'louctal s, of the differ emwhich:tlee,noble earl a confederable, pen hinc ed, a nAec,adtegetpwrt o for thdis whupoeh In e fir t p ac t, Inuh to iPp aud;aia:very-littlteoscufes,sy. Ivr4jy ,pounds -forexlling onntseirlordthipsea, asnct ain a Pdpeg' lition of700 Stat0e0 of SpanishsAr ldric hund bp eenoy dl1sernwortot measure,ar hpa lt himself c lpifo-eon:e 3 ould bi,ve w n, ained td inpedc hitahXeomtendj0O. fr es cuse,* though hebad.reOn fcobsieerom yeid ute thevj c 3estY's.iisennthatl mutib thss-cuntltyl5ad. rica; unfctteied;byauny- it: have wou influbeenar- itheathmeothop. t n Gaacimaoflt his: l%vajest' ls ni sfster rca deg .Te ofT imbeeility w h ol e woulf thiever.be attributed-to them, tsuppose-thast,nr he ned,rinye wayther dupei thefortuniesof t inleantis s oolers1tvhoic=tr tairIed n Buwsaidn Aes v13;ch h s sk fei1.. ing, yet that factU d not -before been Sonf i bhyad y ofcei n docn_. meat. lower vermuch, thera , e-mighthangzbeef, odjpdsedfta-find fult itht papr lad ori the thablre ds, Ute u idthce-which.s coul no hav ilile: to, give hima great- s;atisfactiotr;.R.eas tiher fre had m tal;en b plc , no t if thise eoniid .tthei ure deadonot thed questosin towhcalj ithe rpowered ter0hectlt cotry ..noI pSpulatson greater thad ever beoW4ano orcet from the mother cof'unhthda6tudfrths to -he4t su4enfi r,uth lattud ;-teunroesmlanthgreater-than thaprins.ent],, Affics, tnot wh le of.ihe tb0uSsiMe 3 *1n!E o tIncra, t of: true-threwas ablesidtrab lhmat6 forc, amuntig, ed'Ssaid, .rytorafou-ts 7 or S0r wnhMr unde; fB somare cbdldcsses, and themiscondpc hi dai rha a db tLi h `reApcf to:whicheenco alpsrt )or oh . i si ve6 hy thotggh the n- ww forni of irddesedento thtt n bf th alst for tlit *ax thet pbseecssed th a righnty paetch-dec6gidtibiraiew ter. n thee Speramse of that richt would t cthe of entniaoiD nth IWsiret. In rife frt rIace, he Wotsakert that they had the' of ]by'in.. deipenden 6fyaAvfAiag~ wlsg b.ejs The existancoufragiright be regaardll as anIldrof narny an *prdaidion on the subjecr; for;, vhich teleje tibehis dittyt oporbit-t ou* p ece.ofan yf:ed ite,is hid might open -to the 'c6untry, he would-tievestanrhsp- i'dhis jilaceirn that bouse tho support oradviat the(aopntlotndof mieasrnt ircon_sist- ent with those princioles of righthand justice wliich ware-plaroi',ntto all t i ency appeany depatiteur front whibc co nd oteverfji to prove disaterous. Theiraportiee of this point woald excos- hif -for do.l taisting their. h_ardships 'a few Monueres on -it.: ~As to the eight. of' niaking the reognition, their lordships w.ided considet w ther: the South American States were nt now deActo independenst;and that being adm-itted, whether the're wts 'any prospect of 'Spain ever being able to g3issess themp; and to whetlier,'if they yo erinetth pen dent and coild not he radossessed by Spain, they wore iffU.conditr tino to enable them to cnaintain the relations of anity and romtieke- with otlier countrie Fronr what the noble earl otipositte hadd mitted.and whatathpaperse 1 thetable t ontaLned,hemight regard those uuestiohe as setted. Independent of everyother confineotgion, cheir lordshIps could, from the evenitsof tlietwo lastyet,'htvenio dwubt, as to the question whens er v Spain 'could h prave al: prositect of reconquering the States of South America. In proof'of their presentperefect independence and complete separation fromuSpain, he had only to requiest their lordships to look at the duration,as pa. litical bodies, of the dtffreont members of that e greatoefederation nowv ceinbined to resist all attempts to.restore'the dominfon whicht Spain once hexd in America, and the great power they- pos. eats for thisoPutpAse. In the first place, in the State of nexico, extending. from isea to sea, and containing -a -popu. lation of 7,000,000, no Spanish soldier had been see- for two years past. There was, indeed, a smiaill SpanniNh iorce on: the coastz Thre Castle of San Juan de Uloa contiined a garrison of about 4,000, who from the pecliar situatiorni of the fortre they a or.c pied, m it hol out for a considerable period ;' but-thev wtreWofn pletelv cut off from all communiation waith 'the intetoi, and, cOut- have no infltuence an te fate of the country. In Gisatirnala them was -lSO Dnow no Spanish force. Throughout the -wholeoif the gifetc State of Colombia therew as not, nor had been, since th* stadutiof of Paerto Cabnlda, a single Spanish' soldier. Tihat Republic: hiesd alreadny ebercised the character of an independent. ttate :f6 d13 yas. In Buenos Ayres,dwh iad sor lobag -maintained ts independence, 'and against which Spain had -omade no attempt whatever, dihe t had occuzred some thanges of. overnmienth} -but. it was worthy ofvremark, that aid-eall. al the 'chanes whichn had taken place, no party in ' the welonntrv uhnc'rverl manif,sted any disposition o o call in the-power of-the m6therethiney. In Chile no Spanish soldier had appeasted ot aleveral yeirs,' s.d no force from the mother country bad for thes four veasos fome uear it, wivth the exception of tbat.which held poi!,oneifaCamsinl islW-on. tue coart. I in Peril, it was truc there was' ae4nsidenable Spabis,h dource, amonting, it -as said,. toabout h 7 or 800ties had i dei i--5efEt cient leaders. That force was repbrted to halve ieC-enetl6ta.,tsjrud somie successes, owing to the miscondpct of indiviaor alsdr wba d atgt forden facilities to the operations Bf theiRoyrabiistany,; bot be led not to be expected that any partialadvalstagea which mrrighthe.i,gajed by thebspanish force, could be capable of ez thiatchiny thlbtspirngif SudepAndence which had taken roof in thetheares:oftheFrnch especially when Bolivar was encnurging theo'nwith'all thsg-hry of his na oeulnod aiding them witho all the genugviwnch distinguifhed hsis mnilitarv enterpurises and- poliuial fdinini6tratiou'; biYwhi~h -ae bid estrablisryd the in4ependen-ce - eans G o fitija, ng iventohel'acons vtitrtiton duthiehd apseare destined, thbecoevi the bondm i untit;d the charter of the liberties of 'thecoisitZderated states- ,l-e lwould now ask their lordeqbips,r hethei they considered it pronablz thaLt countries, pfoi having inyohrtained- their independence f Cl- r15 wicouldould againb rdspeled to return'e dgrcthe yoke t'lsuch a pices as Spaiy now was, andeduaSt, Of n6Ces`itA be for hlfisCentUry to come-acountry which hoad only l0rilitions ofinhba sneit s, In'te infaficientan distracted condition of Spain, s WAs'eitluene ofth that she could malae anyimpression on the confedehtdi atntees d mentioned, -which conained 17 milUiOas'df peuslajo ?-TirIe the pikture more complete, h e ight bipallo a e intheppu- lation of the Brazils,.which was 4 milions, while that;ofsorthat was only 3 imillions. Thus, i7itlt a view 'to any practica~oiia consideriR tion, all the American state he had enumeerate tb considered as independenlt, and incapiuble- of being cocpshdtor. turn under the domninion of thie mothier -codntry.~ $tesi the qluestion of the right of recognition to bdtehnedi'b eme to'the consider~ation of expedien6y, in usfar.as that dopejide4bi:6the cap&- city of the SouthlAmerican statesio 'atair y*Ad tibreaooffaiitv candcommerce as might be expecte-d to be -'cortluede ditbti them'. well as all tbeothe5rrebation)sofelvjized gove rnsnenisHete helt05it own that the cour-se which had been folloiwed;5pvihogbs o6eontries, where peace and tranquillty had so soon oVercorad. :tlhy-'trhJng_ likce civil dissension, wvou'ld be sufficient, in his. opiniess, to.'settle this question,'without going into any consideratior ~totht&stu ~tinckpes of the constitutions whidaihad bene, bse~ WIsn, hoswever, he at- tended.to what was stated by thie FrenchAifnb:issasloe-f_hen hefound those counDtrie-s describcd as blividbdh patty1spirit; as' in kwstate of anarc-hy, and as kep-t in agtation by absurd4aud dangerous theories, lIte coduldnet but consider those clisxges as' aitogetier -visfoulnded. I-e would asal their lordships whether~ if this, descriptioni were-truee, they should not asee all the elements 01" discord let lbose ? Whether the existence'of such a state'of thilngs would niot be manifesied bY its efFects ? The truth, howrever, was, that it was very eAs y in this. way to describe, any governtment as dangerous. ln' the same maniner the Grand .Scignor mi'zht very well pronounce tile condemnation of - he 'Preach King's Gavertmient, -Were the Sultan to refer to the French charter, and to all -the changcs made since it was established, he would easily find as good reasons for de- claring France in a state of' anarchy, as the French Ambassador, doubtless acting.accoefling to his instructions, had thosught proper to bring forward in p roof of diec want of good order anaTl egular go- lvernment in South Atmeriti. But their lordships would not be ledl away by those allegations, so far as to suppose that everY thing in South Amneric-a which was not in unison with the viewsof theFrinch Government must be wrreng. WVhen he looked at the constitution of Colombia, he found that it contained tiwo principles which their lordships could noi fair to approve-namely, the givlain f influence to properaty, aud the securing the means of edupOatlon. The elebtions were so conducted as to pre6lutle theev~il -alising fr-om 'a snultittde voting without property. A ce~rtain guissification of p~roperty was. niecessary to givehbe rsghL efvoilb lers atI:dhe qualification w revird ortheAeor ,bQeleutors;s opd asetti 4es. He might point utin nany othr things-itt theconstitatibn of CZolombia, which their lordships would be disposed-tor onimond ; 'out he par- ticularly wished to call their attention to the far.-thpl, under its an-. spices a system of parochial education bad b{e e4b diesragblishted tlhtougbout the whole cou-ntr.. In :.addtino salt''this,, mAny facts mightbe mnentioned in~ ptoof of ffhe f4voutable iinfliVenceof thaix contiutin.an th rgulriy f. hehoernmnett-WhiWdminister.. ed i li miht. stpe -tha sice ir x-pjlsioidf:th& :Spooiixrdz, ther 1us no heTeapperee~saything : likof diorer'; that durig te lst wo yarsit aa eutbeetsfouind- neesasry to emply ~ inge sodierin ld otbepilc, -aid et' tsp> breach. of peac ortraqtsilit:ha an whee ocirreu*- -Thte' as sijrehy- in rhe statemrept hsj biad madre pr~ofof th-e ----- of he Goverti- ment of Coloun'bia, Atid,oritr. powrer to cl.sfr antb erect: or Inintaini anyceugagerments itruight Contract:; utin'he .muSt bgssdca inf"orum their lordbships, that the state LifColombiabad niadetir,isoiufbrtel gradual extinction of slavery ir tecolonieg,~ and here-he- Wouldt appeal to the noble earl qipositeij the Seeietaty of State -for-the colonies, whether the Governuxient -witih -h'arl Oori this-,must not- be allowedlto have completed a: taalk- of no' ea'sy a,ctoiphahuentA? AMeasures had bech tOlcem f6r regual ~ii esla'ves the-ir. li berly.- A tax was estgblishblt.flras-mtgo ltyn into et ect their manuunission, and til bsldetu would issfiittre: be berta free. It was aslso dute to thue Oodes~pmelefClnat tt,ta this great mneasure was carried ihta,6f~tstanunsi sstacov to the mnasterasAs to the slaves. 'Caebbehtliiwspr o all parties compensation for lot n heeesns'o s ls'bya had, beca attended'wIdth coniid rbnzn~st daue t b mnasters themnselves. This w4i'a stateo ~ Inigwzwrittdd o but 1besatisfactory to'their l6itsls.sps baIaigsae o&at which were calculata t, rfhoW the natroft. b goer ats of America, it mig:ht next be propertoiqlr o ths#uea. nsensg were ega le by Pitbbte' opinon nEioe 'n oeh migh. ~k~hetee apretty cert4in baoitrofttounowsne now a-very -vi iantj Ju Zl tteiyof'ty t chlane would x rrYitfuh; ow l~sgrh*a dutsieso or letsof the vari6us~t~ micnE6~isuiesas. ard of their solidity h Ql&hti ia~ewev7 ad 2 1.ioolang a little.fade ea1jive f 36Wp~,..ots ancient .governmient fru-hieslii' b?iellchthCbnh asi- sunk. itas aid,int, a'afa~ :~ichpree.thea tsiAther: no6nfi.. uleee ots~cfriy,...h~f~ud tst erSatu:rday~ last the tstak l 'was that wbkits its presnt solereign had sd dheonly appoveil. with a mental reservation, whent he acted untder control, ad that he hadi1 la'tely informed the world that ke never had intended to pay either'1 the-principal or the interest of~ this debt. He had therefore carried his InquirLes 3omewhat fuTther. For this purpose he was obligefl tO3 FO an far as Amugterdatm for it was in vain to ask for the old legitimate stock of Stpain on the L indon Exchange, where there was ao0 tale for sucU a commnodity, thoughi all thelhoniour and resources Of the Governm'ent had been pledgedI for its security This old Spanish stock, so well secured, he found sold in thte Amsterdam market at 51 and .52, while Chilian and othier American stock was selling in every market of the world at 82. Sach being the situation of these Governmients with regard to Public Credit, let him now ask whether the coantries of So,ith Axnerica were in a state which jtistified any old Government in Eu- rope to dictate to them wvhat ought to be the character of' the Govern. sient theyr should adopt? Their lordships, it appeareLd, hadl been in- vited to concur in bringing these countries under the subjection of a Government founded on a monarchical or aristocratical principle. Thiz was the first time, he believed, that any power was ever called an to interferv to settle the Government of such distant countries accoding to certain abstract principles, whether monarchi- Cal, aristocratica], or democratical. Re had certainly lived in a country, where he had learned to admaire the advantageous efFect of the uniosn of aUl those three principles in one system of government, and to consider tbas?sstem the best calculated for promioting puiblic happiness:, but he had vet to learn, that a government foundfed on -only one of those princi.ples, might not afrord all the security and advanitages the people desired; and that therewas any thing in the mere principle of a government, whether monarchical, aristocra- ticall, or dem"ocratical, which could justify the interference of any other government;, but there existed in thle neigh- bourhood of these new Republics a great and mighity Go- verrment...he meant that of the United States of North America, which was founded on democratic principles, anid which, if any interference with the internal affairs of these provinces were justifiable, had the best rigzht, from vicinity and comnmunity of interests, of interference. Should the legitimate Governmnents of Europe, under the pretext that these republics were turn by do- mnestic disorders, and that it was impossible to establishi any' rela- tions of intercourse and amity with them, unless the democratic prirciple was overthrown, and the monarchical established on its ruins; the Government of the United States, seeing the foundation of their own institutions attacked, mnight thinkl it necessary to lend the whole forc-e of their union to support principles opposite to those of monarchy, or bring their neighbours back to their former republican forms. Thus a contest would be commenced, and a civil war maintained in these provinces, which could have no other end but to retarM the consolidation of order and the establishment of property y te assumption on the part of foreigners to dictate the form by toverment under which the people should live. Wasv not, therefore the conclusion irresistible, that neither on thie prin. cipIles of national law, nor on views of expediency, could there he any- interference on the part of European Governments to alter the exist- instr ordler of things in South Amierica, or to dictate what form of Government ths new States ought to adopt ? (Hear. liear.) He (Lord Lansdown) hadl now gone over what he had to say respect. lug the right of this country to acknowledge the indepenrdence of the !iouth American states, and shown that no obstacle existed to the exercise of that right. He woiuld only add to his reagoning on this partof the subject,the obserVaLionthat there was little ground for aDprehending that our conduct in recognizing this independence coId lead to any rupture either with Spain or her allies. The re- cognition of a governmnett defacto never could be niade a legitimiate ground of quarrel;, and had not, in fact, occasionedI wars in former instances, in which this country had come in contact with the very power whosc interests were now op?osed to our ackniowledgmezit of Sout Aeiainendnce. Hie would appeal to themcsso thie united prov-iuces of the Netherlands wvhen severed from the Spa. nialh monarc-hy, and, to that of the establishiment of thie family' of Braganza on the throne of Portugal by a revolt fron,i Spain, in sup- port of this principle. It was ivell known that we had carried on an open intercourse withi those provinces-that wxe fomnied political alliances, and enteredI into commercial treati.es with their Government for sxyyasbefore Spain, acting on her characteristic policy, and eLrcsin her acustomred caution, couldi be bogtt cnwei their i-adependence-an acknowledgmient which was not formally, made till the treaty of WVestphalia. During all that interv,,al, we hadl acted as, if SpainUdi no claim to the obedience of the Netherlands. In the other event to which he alluded,. our condluct had been more pointedly opposd to the views of Spain without ocasioning a war. In 1641, the ortes of Portugal declared tie right of the family of Bragan7a to the throne of that kingdom:. and in 11i42 this cou'ntry concluded a treaty with, the newly-establishned Government, without laying the groundt for any 'hostility, or qjuarrel withi Srpain, andf without event a remionstrance froin that Power. (Hear, hear.) The recognition of the indlependlence of' aL go- vernment dc facto had always been considered as the right of every independent state :ii was3 the peculiar exercise of the sovereignty of one state, and could not be regardedI as an) act of lios- tility by another. The exercise of it, therefore, depended only on it-, expediency in the particular case where it was called for. He b2a thus entdeavoured to show that the situaation of tke South Ame- rican provinces presente-d a case in which that right could be fairly a2nd honourably exercised ; because, if he entertained any doubt as to its existence, or to the possibility of exercising it consistently with the msintenance of our engagements, he would not have Yielded to views of expediency, however pressinz, or have lookedI to commercial profiot,, however important. (Hlear, hear.) He would now call the atttention of their loidships to the considera- tion of expediency which should lead the m to adlopt the proposition with which he meant to coniclude, and those considerations wvould he fiund in the present state and as3pect of affairs in the O1ld Vorld and the New. In the first place, the present condition of Europe power. fully called upon us to adopt a course- of policy, by whiich we might jecrease our power, multipl the mecans of comimercial intercourse, create ne- connexions, and ttengthsen those alliances with new aiidl mor congenial states, to which we must look as a compensation for dimiinished confidence in our former alliances, or fec aid in future deogers. H e begged their lordships to direct their attention to the continent of Europe, and while they did so, to leave o-ut of vi,cw entirely the Internal prosperity of this country, which naturally acted on 'their feelings, and prevented thecm from seeing accurately the situation in whichi they were placed :he beg.. ged them not to be misled wpith respect to our foreign relations by a confidence in our owni reources, snd not to deceive thiemselves as to our ultimate security, because they perceived no immediate dtanger. tHlear, hear.) They ought not to believe, that after thie series of re- volutions through which the continent Of EUrope had passed-after theformation of new allianceg among its greatpowers,-andparticu- larly after the announcement (inf the new law of nationis by these powes, e stod n th ase reatins with the continent as for- merl. (ear her.) n frme ties it hadl always been the poliy o ths cuntr toconectitself with somne of the miliarystaes f Erop, t cutivte that alliance withi care, to mply i tosupor ou poitialviewvs, and to enable us to intrfLre it efectIn cntientl ar. wlien our dutty or our in- terests cailled upon us to interfere, either for the stipport of the weak aganst the strong, the preservation of the independtence of smaller -taics, or the general balance of power in Europe. (Hear, hear.) it mattered not what was the internal condition or the fonn of go- vernnsent of the state of our ally-we could alWays rely upon its gto- vernment for the objects of the alliance. This order of. things had now beess entirely overthrown. It was needless to make a long appeal to facts to convince their lordships that we couldi not now look for such an al'Ly among the great powers of Eu. rope : anti that not one, but all of them were engaged in a con- federacy on a principle wnich this country never had adopted, and ,never could support- (Hear, he-ar.) It could not niow beconie a qvetion whether, in a quarrel withi France, for exaiiiple, we could oofor an allIy in Russia; or whiether, in a misunderst inding withi Russimq, we might expect the assistance of France, Austria, or Prus- sia- Thtere was not one of themn to whicih we could successfully ap. peal they, were all confederated on other principles and otlher interest ; arittl if those interests or those principles were appealedl to i one, they, nitst be sanctioned by all. (Hlear, hear.) For this purpose, sonle of them boasted that they had 700;iOtl men in arms-they all posgessed great standing armnies-they exercised a despotic and oppressive rsower over the minor states, and declaredt Cht hy wouldallow no change to take place-no imnprovemenit In government-no amelioration of institutions to he effected, that was niot in conformity with thieir views. (Hear, hear.) Nor were we lef't to deduce the consequences of their system from reasoning, or to rupply th~em from theoretic speculatio'n. Wre had Only to look to the litrof the last five years, andl month by month, day by day, we=soul eethese consequences developingthiemselves. rhey had established anew law;, and they calle!d upon the smaller states to submit to it at the expense of being invaded and kept in military possesion. tlWy had endeavoured to imnprove hier conditioni by, adopting, a ne o form of government, and she was overrun and occu- pied militarily by Austria. Spain had clainied the same privilege of changing her tnstitutionis, and slhe had been overrun and was now ocuped by the armies of France. (I-lear, hear.) ~very state was libeto have its government altered, modified, and changed, at the Pleasure of the Allies.-to have its territor-y overrun-its sub- jects destroyed-its garrsons possessed by foreigners, and all the calamities of war aiid revolution inflicted upon it without mneasure and without remedy; whiile we, who had not nowv a powerful friend beyond the pale of the confeDderacy, and who could not interfere to defend, however much we might disapprove of the attack,could con- tribute nothing but our pity or our admniration to the victimii; em. ploying the melanchioly exclamation of Maedit '#- - Bleed, bleed, poor country ! "Great tyraniiy, lay tliou thy basis sure, For goodness, dares not check thee." In these circumstances of Europe, it was our duty to lookc out for new allies, and the means of increasing our streneth and resources in the exctensive regions of South America, a-s well as by closer con- nexion with the United States of North America, where the founda- tion of a lasting alliance was laid in common institutions, a common language, and mutual interest. In ornler to show their lordlahips -with what a4siduity we ought to cuiltivate this connexion angl con- sequently how impolrtant it would be to recognize the independence of the new states, it was only necessary for hiin to state the increase in our trade with them. Froni the papers for whiich he (Lord Lans- down) had moved, with a reference to this motion, it appeared that our comuniercial interests were greatly involved in the inde. psendence of the new States. In the -first year in whichi the parts of these provinces were opened. our exports to them amounted to the value of 3,270,0001. This great exportation of commodities might be supposed to have occasioned a glut ; and with- outa knoerledgeof fcts, it might be apprehended that the amount exported in the next year would rather diminish than increase. The fact was the contrary. In the year 11122 our exports exceeded those of the prerious year bv 6-'0,000l., making 3,910,0001.! He begged their hordahips to reflct to what extent this increase might go when these countries were entirely settled-when, by our recognition of theirindependence, ther vrc freed from al apprehensions of an ex- ternal attack *nd when their internal tranquillty would admit of their undivided application to the cultivation of their fertile soil, and the pursuits of tegular industry. On this topic, he would not detzio the house further than to mention one fact which was known to him and to others of their lordships who took an interest in the state of Ireland-that tlle export of linen from a part of the south of that kingdos, where the greatest distress had soine time ago pre- veiled had spreatd life and animation over an extensive ictnct, and ii connected the welfare of the Irish farmer and amnufactur with the comforts of the inhabitants of South Ame- rica. The increase of our trade with South America under inde- pendent Govcrnments, might be conjectured from what had takeis placc in North America. rhc exportation from Great Britain to the provinces composint the United States, guardedl by monopolies and restricuoni 0 aU inds a5 its commerce there was when under British domninion, bore no proportion to the quantities of our manu- facturcs which they have consumed since the establishment of their independetice; ana the increase of our trade soon left us nothing to re gret for the loss of our sovereignty. In the eight years which pre- ceded the declaration of their independence (or between 1766 and 1774) theannual exports from this country to North America amount. ed only to 2,4-11,0001. In the eight years which have elapsed since tac last waTr-a war wlibch eaught never to have been undertaken- 7bhich hzd creat-d ranoeur and animnosihy between nations whoin their mutual interest, common origiss, ltiugitge, nan institutions, ought to have unit ed, and the l nfiL~encei of which he 'waill now happy to see daily subsiding--the average of our ex- ports was 6,905,0001., being an increase of nearly three to one. He mnentioned this instance the mnore willin'ly becase it showed hiow false the system was which Mhcke commerce, hiowv certain the principle of' the changes lately introduced wast to increase our tradt and howv surely a more liberal course of conduct lays the f'oundatiod of our Sprosperity, T 'he advantages which we re.spedI from South Amnerica mnight be extended and accelerated withi greater force than the rate which bhe had mentioned in our trade withi the United States. The population oF these states at the first period to which hie hiad alluded, was two miillions-it was now ten millions. The population of South Americ-a was now twenty- one millionis: at the same tl:stance of time, and going on at a rea- sonable rate, it miight be increased to six~ty millions. There were some fortunate circumnstances in the situation of the latter which did niot exist in that of the formner states. The slave population was small, and the soil was extremely fertile, Having now pointed out the advantages which we must enijoy by an unrestricted intercourse with the inhabitants ef those immense regions, and theexpediencyof recognizing their independence, he would answer one objection with which his motionimight be met. lie mighitbhetold that as this ques- tion had been so long kept open, and as he had approved of the course which ministers had hitherto taken, why not rely uipon their future conduct, and acquiesce in a little farther de- lay ? 'To this hie would answer, if we were satisfied that we had the right to recognize thiese states-if the exercise of that right cituld not be contested, and was likely to lead to no danger-if it was de.- cidedly expedient to recognize them, not only for our own interests but for the interests of all-we oughit to lose no tinie, but avail ouirselves of the first opportunity to secure their friendship and con- fidence by, a formal acknowledgment. (Hlear, hiear.) This was the very moment when they needed our countenance, and would be be- nefitted by our recognition. It woulil be to thiem now of the bitmost importance. It wouild enable them to place a reliance in the conti- nuanice of their indlependence, it would enable them to settle their internatl dissensions, and to consolidlate thecir respective Govern- ments. If we hatd the rWigt to acknowledge themn, and if expe- diency concurredl w'ith right, why linger on the threshold of recogni- tion-h no nter into it without reserve ? Wily not ci)nnect our frienidship with the earliest associations of their independencee rather than wait till their recognition is general ; and till they ial tanta o'drto n indeenenceo whichwesallyati thaven credit,tibecause e withheld foaral wlianche tilll wase no lonerit weanted He woulivdak, our ld thisancnolitwledgmntob longe protated? bywol any , cours do poiscyknouledteg ovrment b lofg Sprtainciutedb asy itowase wihf folicyn forei the coventry, or could , itu evnater tastfoc was wt worithdfrcw,e ablte eutoy redcothese eitevnsv prvicstner thatfreira fothrmeaclnia bealtondae?c Could frteniedpomvgince bner theira foromntha couarter bofdthe w orld? Crroul tei imroemt whichdaw they thad marter sinc they woad be freed fo the dominoVrnt ofSpinh bhey eradimatted siantcoul theyird benfreed brm le niMioy reefed Sasn wel mraichttheyI exp(cttha theiprgesb m nighty treaerse tha flo throgh tat geat ounty wold grtu y backato their slourc -as well oght they xpect btha theguftream whurce flow alng teirshors souldbe rreted in its course, or chanaec itsquait, a tht he ouns f iprvement and independenice shold eas tobe ear frm soreto hore, and fromn iiiountain to mountain, in those mnighity regions. The time was, wlien the igno- rant and oppressive Spaniards rooted up the vines in Alexico, that the inhaibitants might rely upon the myother-country, for wine; time was, when it was felony, to miake a road through some dlistricts, lest the inhabitants might hiave communications which their Spanish rulers disliked: time was, these people were subjected to every species of commercial and political oppressioii; but these times, were now passedi, and never could return again. (Hear, hear.) Still our recognition of them might hasten the era of their happiness. anid the consolidation of their freedom. He had no apprelienbion that a war would be comnmenced against t'hem f'romi Europe; b,'ut he could not but remiark the kind of condluct pursued towards them antd towards us by the conitinental Governments. It wvas evident from the papers, thatwe hd gnerosly omnunictedto themi our intentions; it was likeiseevient fro th frnk dmision of this noble earl, that theyhadcomuniate nohin ofthers in return. This silence was minos, a, thugh t di notindiate penhostility, it excited suspcio tha thy wuld mply aains thse royioces5secret, but not esseffcacous ea.mena,too ofnover honourable cha- rac te,which these leItiaesoverigns did not fiesitate to emiploy wheni suited thecir intrst r thei views. heI would not say that the progress of Southi Amnerican indlependence could be stopped, but it Knieht be retardled:- dIissensions would be promoted ; their councils wrould he we'akened ; andi the consolidations of' thieit Government ivovldl be delayed. It was with a design to pre- vent thiese evils that he mnade thie presenit motion-that he calledI uponi Government to promutlgate by actions, anid not by, words, the course which theY mneant to pursue. Convinced as he Was., that a great epoch in political hi[story liad arrived ; that circumn- stances had dlecided th!e question of Soutli American independence; and that all the inquiry nowv was, whether the ultimate recognition should be mnore orless accelerated-should be more or less advan- tageous to us, or more or less connected with the hionour and prospe. rit'yofthis country. (Hear, hear.) ?ile had only one word more to say With respect to the pap,ers on Fthe table. They seemned toindica.te a conne-xion or a dependence of our policy upon that of France, in this question, of which he didI not approve ; andl this was the only thiing in them which had liis digapprobation.Thie noble marquis con- cluded, amidst considerable cheering, by mioving " Thiat a loyal and dutiful address be presented to his Mlajesty, thank-ing hiim for the papers containing the correspondencebetween England and her allies, relative to South America, which had been laid upon the table ; and begging him to take such seeps as mnay scenti meet for acknow- ledgingv speedily the independence of those provinces, and establish-. ing such diplomatic relatioro with themn,as cannot fail to promote an amicable intercourse between themn and this country, and conduce to our commercial adlvantage." The Earl of LIVERPOOL began by observing, that in nearly all the principles laidi down in the able speec-h of the noble marquis he agreed ; he only differed wi th him in his application of them in tlheconclusion of his speechi. Beforeche applied himself tothle most insortnt f te obl maqui'sobsrvaion,be must clear away, the roud b a relminay sateentor wo.In what was said of the endncyof reetrae t inress te prosperity of the country, he cncured,altoughhe ouldnotenter into a minute detail of he ccont f or epors t Sanish America: one thing howevr, ha bee overookedin seakimig of thlat subject Ilt hadeen state thatour exports were no eryfur millions; and it had been assumed, tha tbefore the needne of the provinces we had exported Aothing. -Now the fc a,ta we had formerly exported comniodities which reached these provinces,; but they did not appear on thie customn-house returns, because the pores of these provinces were nomiinally closed against us. Our mnanufactures and prodluce hiad, therefore, reached Mexico and somie of the other states by indirect and circuitous channels. 'That commerce was now di- rect, and therefore thec amnount of it could easily be ascertained. In the uncertainty that prevailetd regarding it, the best was to state the amount exportedI to America aItogether, includling the WVest In- dies Caada an th UntedStaes.Time whole of the expoi tation of he ounry ein sttedat 3,00,001., 21,000,0001. of these went to Aeria, 7,00,001.to uroe; nd ,00,0001. to the East Iniies A on~dcabl prtin o wat was shped for the Wlest Indis t~t rach out Ameica liewasready to adniiit that ther lte reeom ad uchinceasd teirtrde witli us, and he only wished to correct the fallacy that before nothinig was sent, be- cause nothing appeared. He likewise concurred withi the noble mar, quis in thinking that Spain could not agin, by her own unassisted Power,recnnquer these provinces, andl tat it was chimerical to attempt it. Hewould even go farther,and say that she neveratany time possess. ed thermeans oftdoing so. IHe would now proceed tot te main part of thie nloble AMarquis's speechb, and in answering him, he wrould find it necessarv tta go back to former circumsta-nces, as well as to state those which hl~d recently occurred. It was well kniown that before the re- volution of1808, a general beLief prevailed amiong those best qual.- find to) form an opinion, that the perioid wats n*t far dlistant, whien Spain, unable to continue her foruiier rule, vwould he obligedI eithier to relax liar systeum or to surrender hecr power. It wa-s argued that 17 miillions o-f mien over a couintry so extensive as that of Southb America could not be kept in political obedience unider commercial freile. y akigdo wekeed utlik tatof Spain. It becamec therfor a qeston wethr itwoud no bebetter to relax her coini- nierial onooly,andto rtai thefavur naiil good will of her co- lones y alowngthea agreterderee of freedlom than to en- dangr atotl rptur bya cntiuedenforcement of lier restric- tios. hes relecion, wichocurred to every mian, were strengthiened by thewarnings of experience ; and tile example of Enigland, whos commerce had increased with tile United States after the ileclaration of their independence, was cited in suipport of this principle. But all expectation of any result from a poicyof hiskin wasconouned y te events or the revolution. In te yar 808,whe, i conequnceof the most tinparalleled aggesson hathadeve ben mde n he independence of any coun- try,a geerarisng o th Spaishpeope took place, doubts arose as o te plic wichthi contr oght to pursue. Thiere were some an thse wre ot he lastlovrs of wall-regulated freedomi, ~vh thugh tht Sainougt s beencuraedand supported in the ele hic sh wa thn cosmecin, i th hoe that Europe migt b fred y er xamle:othrsagan,eo'shtthat we Ought entielyto banon pai toherelf asit as opeessto resist; and her olones fom te moher eunty. Teirlordsliips nedohr. minded,that the fornser policy was pursued and thatit wascmltl successful. This country was bound, whiatever line o oiyse adopted, to declare: it openly; and if their lordshipg ol okt the first speech from the throtie, -hey would find that the integrity of the Spanish donlinions was then stated as the first object of this country ; and this policy was applaudedi, even by same noble lards that were not in th,e habit of suppotting his Ma1jeSty's minilisterS. EHe (the Earl. of Liverpool) stated this, to sho how the olicy of this country, had been bottomed fromr the beginnng. ThQe revolution which took place in Spaimi was accomipaiiied by revolutions in the South American provinces, but whethier anyvof those provinces then entertained thienotion of separation fromithe mother countty he could not say ; probably some did, and soime did not. In the then situation of this country there was but one honest and direct course of policy,and that iwe had pursued.From the beginninig of 1810-franm the first knowledg e we had of any rising in those proviaces_. we offered our mediation, and whethier the Governuiientof'Spain was prolvisional, whether it was vested in Juntas or in a Cortes, we always, with the mother country. There was no period since the conclusion of the war in 1814, uaider the Juntas, Corte,-, the Colnstitutional Monarch,v or wheii the King was restored to absolute power, that l this country had not always kept strictly to the line of its duty; and if theSpansls Government had acquiesced in the wishes of this coun. try, it was propable tlhe result would have been very different. But it was material to recollect, that whatever form of Government pre- vailed in Spain-not the absolute King only-but whethier Cortes or Constitutional, tlhey all of them declined the good offices and media- tion of this country ; and if there was any difference iu the prindi. ple of unwillingness to lIsten to our offers, the more constitutional the Governnment was, the less they were inclined to listen to the pro- posal of emiloving the good offices of this country. We continued to pursue the samne hne of policy down to the period of the Conr7ess at Aix -la-Chapelle, at which time this country was led to look to its essential interests with respect to the South American colonies. He did not mean by the mention of essential interests to say, they were distinguished from our duty at any time. The iioble marquis had omitted to notice what was our present situation with respect to these colonies ; what it was we had done, and what remaine(d to be done. In the year 1822, before a noble fricnd of Iiis (the Earl of Liperpool's) now no more, departed for Verona, lie had prepared in. structior,s which were afterwards given to the noble duke. who suc. cceded him. But before these instructions were all prepared, the Go. vernmenthad taken their line. They had submitted to Parliament an i act which received the Itoyalassent, and which went to the extent of acknowledgiag the de facto independent provinces. Whlat was it that was then done ? If their lordtships would look to the 5d of the King, chapter 43, they would perceive that it gave to aU those pro. vinces the rights of independent statas under the navigation act, at the same time re-affirming the general priiciple that all commerce with Asia, Africa, and America, must be carried on in British ships. We ha thus titablishea a free ietercoisrs~ 'with those states as indepndent; states, antd. from that time it was a complete free trade withi that country.' This was explainea to the Spanish rGovernment, and they weie at the same time told C'alt i would be followed iip by othier steps. Accordingly, from that time, the independenice of those states was practically acknowv- ledged, and we were not only enjoying thc benefit of a free com- merce with them, but they alsobhad grantedteo themi reciprocal be- nefits by that enactunent which he had mentione~d. In the. month of November in that year, as appeared by a letter frcomi IMr. Secre- tary, Canning, our intention of sending consuls tCs the different pro- vinces was announced. Some delay had certainly taken place in carrymg that announcement into effct, as it was thought more del1icte to wait for a few monthis, rather than execute it at that particular juncture. HeT now came to another most important 'rid-he meant that periodl when it was quxite clear that the N~'rench armies would be successful in Spain. At that time the Go- vernment thouight it proper to have a full explanation withi the French Government, and we then did take the step of sending thie consuls to their different desqtinations. We had thus given to South America a substantial proof of our intentions, which was worthi a thousand words and acknowledgments of independence. It had been stated that Cite powers of Europe had changed their intentions in ronse ece of the mes,asge,of thte President of the United States. hat e eCthat messaze had had, it was not for him to say butt weeks before this country had declared, that though neutral with respect to Spain and her colonies, she wouldI not see with indiffer- ence any attempts on the part of other countries, and we had ob- tained from France an abjuration of any such intention. He would say, thierefore, that what had been donie was all that could have been done, embracing every practical advantage con- sistent with honour andl goodl faith. 'The question then recurs, of what remains to be done ? A formnal acknowledgment of independence could properly only be made by the power who claim- ed dominion over anothier, and, in the formal sense of the word, we had no right either to acknowledge or dispute tlieir independence-But he would admit there was one thling which remained to be dlone; namely-the openinig a diplomatic intercourse; and that wa the only thing, for every thing else had been don.e, as he had before stated. with rspect to opening a diplomnatic intercourse, he wouldI obsetve, that if thiere was any thing which was more peculiarly proper to he the preroyative of thec Crown than another, it was that of deciding at what period it wouldI be proper to open such an intercourse with fo- rei,gn dstates.k Not that he disputed the right of' Parliamnent, if it shol think proper, to interpose its advice in the exercise of that prerogative ; but he would put it to thieirlordiships, whethier, on the perusal of the papers on the table, there appeared any grounds for such an interference? There m-ight beea thousand reasons for abstaining from taking sucha sate, p which it might be imroer to disclose; but h'e (the Earl of Liverpool) had no desire tocoea himself under any suich ageret reasons; he had no difficultv in telling the house all he knew, all he thought, andl all he felt en this question. This brou litt him to the consideration of some of the genecral principles w'hicIt thec noble niarquis had laid down, in the application of which he could not fully agree. The noble marquis hadl stated thequestion ot recogniition as of right and as of expedience. H-e (Lord Liver- pool) had no dlifficulty in saying, that he thoughlt this country had no right to take such a step as to any of the provinces, where the contest was still going oni. Ife knew that in acting on that principle it would be seen we were not dloing to others as hiad beeii done to ourselves. He well knew whiat lhad been the conduct of the Ihouse of Bourbon when this country hadl large armies in the field clurinlg her contest with our North American colonies; and yet at that timne assistance had been given ; but God forbid that we, in a Christian country,should imitate such an example. Ilcagreedwtth thenoble mar- quis, ttiatno country had a right to call on another not to acknowledge the independence of any state became she had herself refused to ac- knowledge it ; but that was not the question: the question here was this-Was the contest going en ? If it was, hie (L-ord Liverpool) for one, would not advise the taking the step of opening a diplomtiaic intercourse. Thiere was also ainother principlie. Whilst the contest in armns was goinlg on, that was something of wvhich every onie 'nii-ht be infornied-it was, something notoriouis; hut there was anotier circumstance entitled to some consideration, that whil.st no contest in armlswas going on, there might be (andl within ouir knowledge) a considerable portion of the peeple desirous of reconciliationi with the mother-country ; not that he meant to assert such was thie case. He was ready to sadnit, that wvith respect to all thle province-s in which no contest was carried on, there was no question of righit or Justice whiat- ever, but that the whtole resolved itself inito a qusin of expediencye anid then it was to be considered whether we ha=o all tCite solid a'nd substantial advantages whiceh a recognition couild give. lie thiought we had.But then an'othter thing was to bs considered-wvhethier,in the absti- nence from that cause we showed any ill will to South America. On reading thie corrcspontience upon the table, lie wouild put it to any Clhilian, Peruviani, or Colonibian, whether there was any, tliing in it to indicate ill will. Nay, lie wvould ask thiem this question-whe- ther they would rather have a pleniipotentiary to each of thecir eapi; tals, or that declaration of Mr. Secretary Cfanning which hiad been_ agreed to by Prince Polignac.-that this country wouild not see withl indifference the junction of any foreign power in ani attempt of'Spaini upnth.e South American provinces,? There was iti that the goodI wlandt the disposition which must be appreciated in South Amne- rica. He liad no difficulty iu stating whiat were the motives under which lie acted, notwithstanding lie must inisist that as to diplo- matic intercourse, the prerogative was in the Crown, withiout a very strong case was made out to call for the interposition of Parlia- ment. He did not hesitate to sav that the (the Governmnent) would keep the whole question in thieir hands, and as the wol not go to a Congres, so neither would they gie n pledge that wrould fetter their future condutct. It ccrtainTy 'wa's`ymaterial that the acknowledgment of the independenice of the provinces shouldl be made by Spain; but considering the coninexhon whiich we had had with that country-, it was thought right to give lier the opportuinity of makins it. Rie might be told that he had been giving Spain that opportunityv; but were his Majesty's ministers wrong in consider- ing the present as anew crisis? They wished Spain to goforwardhber- an" dthey were ready Co give lher every assistance in doing what was for the interest of Spain herself for the interest of the colonies, and bonourable to this country. Tiiis, lie contended, was an ob- ject worthy of consideration whiere nao substantial interest was sa- crificed by attending to it. He was far from wishing to say whiat government the provinces should have; oa the contrary, he would say let them take that Government which they liked best. In the papers on the tble,regret was expressed that Amerircahad not chosen ionar- chy; but that question would not govern the conduct of his Mlajesty's Govenmen; suh a overmentas wuld maintain the relations of peac an amty as ll heycoud lok to. But there was ano- therquesionwheter teseGovenmets had so far thieconfidence of teir wn cuntrmen s togiveany arrant for their stability ? It was aturl tht hs Maestys Goernent, before taking- any ulti- mat stp, houd dsir inormtio onthe subject, and somne weeks or even month miheapebfore they could be i.n lpossession of it. Were, thien,hiMaets ministers so wrong in the steps w-hich they had taken htte nole niarquis would bejustified in dtesiring to take the whole qestion out of their hanids ? Sonie mighit thin), they had goneto fast, and hiad exposed ehenmselves to risk but sure he was that no person could think they hadi ot done all whiceh they oug4ht to hiave done. The noble earl hiere briefly recapitulated the steps which hadl been taken by this country to mediate between Spain and the provinces. If that mnedi- ation had been accepted in timne, a part of those provinces might hiave still been in connexion with the inothier country. Now his Majes- 's inisters were inp regress to what the noble marquis seemed( to telsire, but they wishet do it in a far, liberal, anti generousway. Thiey had shown tlhat they were determined thle provinces should niot be trampled on byany power or alliance whatever; hut, as hchad before said, they kept this qutestion in their hands as against Spain, and as against the aliance, end thev kept it in the hand, of thei' Crown, as being the exercise of its meest legitimate hirerogative. If he understood the noble lord, he wishedI to know whiether the States of Europe would go to a Congress ? It was impossi ble for him (Lord Liverpool) to say : possibly they did not thiemiselves know, but to any such congress thisl country, would lie no party. The noble earl concluded by moying as ani amendment to the miotion of the noble marquis, to leave out all tCue words after "Tliat," and insert instwad, the following words-- This hoase gratefully ac- knowledges his Mlajesty's goodnless in directing, the papers to be laid before this house, and the house feels geat satisfaction in the as- sumance given by their perusal, that his Mjsy's Government will continue in the furteprgesothsiptatqsin te xci- cisc of those firm, moeae n rdn esrswihhv coil- tributed to the gloranhetitrssothBiismain. Lord ELLENBRU Hsad i thought no noble lord couldi hiave heard the argumients and statements of the noble earl (Liver- pool) without feeling that the question between his noble friend (the Maqis of L,ansidown) and that noble earl was of a muore extede nature than thec noble earl iseemied to think it and if the address; of the noble marquis were inot agreedl to, it was pan thatthre was no security that the recognition of South IAmieritchana independence mighit niot be postponed in the way itlhad hitherto been for an indefinite length of time. The ques- tion was not whetiier we should now recognize the independence of colonies separatedl fromi Spain, but whether wve should recognize co- lonies once belongirng to Spain, Spain being nowv in the power of France. (Hear, bear.)i The whole coarse of the -recent conduct of France showed that she*sas anxious to seize the first opportunity of regaining her ascendency in Europe by renewing the principles olrthe family compact, and miost assuredly those states would be attacked by France under the name of 6pain. 11ho that bad attended to late events could attach the suiallest credit to the denial on thec part of' France of that object ? If his M'iajesty's ministers, were so blind to the views, of France and the confederated powers of Europe- he could only deplore that blindness, and trust that the house woulti take a clearer view of the designs of France and the interests of this couin- try, and adopt the niotion of his noble friend. WVhist thlis country was etigaged with Spain in repelling that attack which thle noble carl, forgetting the attack of last y-ear, stigmnatized as the msost atrocious that ever took place, it miight then have been necessarv, when we were fighting side by aide with Spatin, to say that thi~ integrity of thie Spanish monarchy was, our first object; but that necessity no loniger existed, when the attack was repelled, and the moniarchy ivas out of danger from the enemy. Thie consolidation of the connexion of the coloies f Sain ith he othe coutrywas, in 1818, not our soleobjct;butif t wee, e fare th tlSut America would not forgt, houh hewoud wsh t eneavur to make liter forget our foregn nlitmet bll,whih uderthenamne, and with the real ap- peacnceof eutrlit, ws deidely ostile to South Amnerica. and frienly tospai. As ar a coul belone by law, niur assistance thank Heaven, lie believed there was no man founri base enough to p4r that act in force practically, tlherefore it had becn a dead letter, and of no avail. The soldiers and sailors of Eng- jand, in spite ot that bad law, had, by acting in the fleets and armies of the provinces, established that triendly feeling towards this country wlichl ths legislature, and above all his Mtajesty's ministers, would have prevented. If he had not heardl the early part of the speech of the noble earl,he should havedoubted that he entertained the opinion which it seemed lie did entertain of the importance of the commerce between this country and South America. It seemed that every thing practical had been done; and the only question now was, merely-the opening a diplomlatic inter- course-a thing which the noble earl thought trivlal; but bow was it that in all the papers on the table it appeared to be of the utmost importance, more particularly it so appeared to the miniister of France. The noble earl spoke of the other contests in which Spain had been engaged; but he (I,ord Elleniborough) conceived that every etler contest was obliterated from the mind of Spain by this last contest, in whlichl she had been crusheI by France. But it was in vain that the interests of Spain had been mentioned, either in the negotiations which those pape.s described, or in the address of the noble earl. lie (Lord Ellenborough) could not see Spain-he could not recognize the power of Spain in any of these transactions, because, look where he would, whether at Cadiz, at Burgos, at Pampeluna, or at Barcelona-in every part of the terri- tory he saw French troops alone in poss3ision, and this while lie ob- |served at the same time that every p art of the territory was full of bayoaets. The praise of their moderstiooi was not the least danger. lHe feared poting so mnuch in tme issue of the Spanish affairs as that eeted moderation in the French, whiich was conuected with measuus of essential violence, He was alarmed at seeing them take the aXest and shortest road to the posses5ion Of territorial power,when he ia the Frenclh princ whio headea that armv, anta whos e coniduct certainsly i astiLecl thre praise of the noble earl opposite, acting toge.. tiher witht his troops, with a degree of prudence, moderation, and for- bearance, lot only unkniowni to tbein in the geiieral!y understood conduct Of the French army, hut totally inconsistent with the con - duct of anyvarmv of any country undler equal circumstances. He dreaded to'see the indlependence of sovereigns states struck down without irritation to the feelingiof any considerable party-hie dread- ed this precedent of the acquisiinof great territorial and political power, without conveying feeli ofalarmr or jealousy to any othier government Lie knew of notig oterrific in the history of all that had gone before, as this viwo the F.rench nation taking pos.. session of the powver and resources of Spain, wvith -lie heart and feelings of the invaded country apparently on their sid e. In this he had the sameviw andI opinions with respect to thie general interests of Europe ashs friend Ithe noble miarquis whose motion they were discussing. Seeing thiat that bad confedleracv by which the holy brotherhood of monarchs bound thiemselves tbgetlier was the only' one of all the treaties whiich lhad been made and broken within ithe scope of history, as far as his memorv enabled him to dis- cern the tru'th, in which the aeqniisitiort of" territorial power, of sepa- rate security andl advantage to one sovereign, had not excited jea- loiusy, but was actually coasidered as thie means of strengthbening the power and security of all the other parties, to the alliance, he mnust conclude that they considered every thinig done for the esta- blishmtent of the mionarchical principle In any one state as meaisa providted and laid upfor putting down the spirit of' pupular go- vernment in anv other state in whichl it might hiappen to arise. fle miust concluide, that as the constitution of this country wvas inconsistent with thos, principles of the monarchical system, it would niot he enoughi for ministers to show to them, that'althoug,h violent speeches were occatsionally made in Parliament, and althoughb the conduct of the peopl amiong theniselves mighit indicate a spirit of hostility to those priniciples, y'et thait, in essentials, notwitihatand. logz the constitutioti and the temnper of parties, the Government wOuld cosltinue to err, as they (the Governments in alliance) hia-d erred in thle ways of bad governxiient, of violent and absolute policy. All this would be in vain while rthe counrtry itself shouldi continuec to display the bright exarnple to the worlri of a ttate flourishing by Priniciples diametrically opposite. to those sipon vwhichl aloine, as the'y sail, goveronirimi of atn legitimnate kind couldI rest its found- tiori. Thec British constitution coildl only renmain whille they were withouit the Tnsane of putting it down, and settling the whole edlifice by wvhat thiey shoculd deem mere just and lasting pro- prortions. In thlis view of the dlanger to wliich tile countrv w-as ex- Posed, and at a c-ri'sis nearly approaching that ini which the ane inlset he greatter than ever i(rdbe eoehe, for one, fetdsr ous Of seizing any opporosiyo saigafriend. Wlhen, there- fore, lie saw 'a couinteyilev isn frm rotrate degradation, the powera of whlich wrrailygongntmanhood, diei energies of the people newlyaprntoaltsebjcsf genius and enter- pris,e withoutwhhthhu nmidcudhvnoigtyds tined forwodr greater than ire discoverv- onr stae t tire centreoth civilized world, mus;t anriply proielwt ae riyers,an cre and visitetd by perio(lical winids thmotfvualI for theeterprises of comnmerce,witls adivantages botli of situainniI natural production and climate-that seemied most fittedio l e known to tlresn lo call up and put into action the geniuss,the labu, spirit, arid the e'xertions of its paptu1ation-a couintry frf-sh adsrn in youthful crnergies,wvitht a soil of unhiear-d of exrenit, thle resurces ofi wvislic seenied in tile mnind even to be beyond thie power oexhiaus- rtwn~ecint that for this counitry and her future Prosperity it wouldI ieem as i the Power of the steami-engine hasi beeii inventid nierely with aviwto workitig her precious imines and navigating hier seas sand rivers-a country for the developmrent of whose resources the -science Of Political economy wI ch na nw aking rapidI coquetots over tht prejudices of tieold states, sceeted so hiave uniollerl its clear and rational preceptssa country, in short, just about to suc- Ceed to all the advantages which thle sucession of "ges had gi'ven to science andI the institution of gnood governmnict, anti filledl withi every bless~ing which a bountifuil Providcnce couldli shower upon any people-he felt anxiouts andi eag,er to hiave suchi a country for a friendl. Like the noble earl opposite, he could submit toea little delay, rather than show a gracelless hiaste in the atusinmrenit of his object; bsit whiat lie immediately wantedl was, so hiave tile heart of that country immediately secured upon this p,oint, hiesitation andi slelay, were ilot to be mentionedi. It was in r'eference to titls, thiat lite called sipon their lordships to a(dl the weight of their adlvice. Tite noble earl stood upon the old, proud, attni high ground of preroaie aind reft2sed to allow tire Governmeut toi' usn plode ie oed thlat their lorsiships wvoulih banishl tha-tmiorioni trosulthseir usiiids tr~ev were tire Constituitional advisers of tire hirown s let trism add thre'ir inflULnce so that iseasnire while there was yet time anti opportunity, andrnot proceed in a case of such vital imp.ortance by tlse cold caslcu- lasionre o ZrMinisters; butsuffbr thesisselves tobIe gurarded fironcelbythe v-iews, sentiments, feellings, and sympathies entertainedby tise British PeOple towards a nation litvancin', inthte samie course of sqtrength and power, by adopting principles of'consti tutiunal governmehnt-princi- plea entirely Opposed to thlose of that conifedleracy winich aimed at tire heart's bloodl aird thec life of' every f'ree cons:itutrion. Lord CALTH(RPE thiought that the papers laid before the h'ouse dicl great hionour to Gjovernment ; that they were a credit to the adhrninistration, and a credit to tire country at large, whose opi- nonoe and sentiments they, very faithfuilly represented. Yet though theyj gave greaitand just groutod for conifidence in ministers, he could not forbear saving that they justifiedt conifidlence in the language of' rthe British ministers, onlv,andl that tbeydid by nomieanisjiustify~anv confidence in tlie langpsag's of thenminist'ers of France. There certain-. 1ly-weregreat and good reaso,ns whtythisr-ounstry rhosilldrefuse to co-opeC rate in any enterprise directed agannitEany cosusitey ,by-anotherEuropean Power, anti there could be very little faithbattributed tothe professionsI of those goerinseniiits with whichotur orvn iritnisterslhiadhbeen treatin,, i according to the represeirtation of the papers beforetlirehouse. Tfie Government of Fiance had last year engaged in an enterprise wliind was slepreented by almost every mian in tire country. Thiey entered Spain, lie miust own, in, a spiri't of extraordinary mloderati'on. Tire forbearanice of the military in the treaturienit of a subduedl people was Iiighly creditable to tliem. Yet that moderation of itselIf was al armitrz, because it wats cle-ar that before they entered Spain they were ignorant of the nature and character of that power they then pro-. fessed to support. They found, instead of a weise atrd ordlerly Go- vernment, thtey wvere called to reinstate a G'overtrmient surrounrded by, tire King's party, which was actuated by a blind, ferocious, in- tolerant bigotry, so that the French serersobliggcd to acrt as melis- tore between ithe two factions, of whose dlivisions, before thsey entered Sitrtey h.sdl not beard any, tiring Tine view their taken' was not _,ieher Or no tire cotistitution had been s' ubverted: the constitution of itself -would hasvs beers condemsned, perhaps, by 19 oust of every 20 persons in this isand and tlherefore he hiad never been able to give the msinisters that sort of credit wlisic herry so proudly, claiinresi, eveti in the opening speech of the session, for their conduct in regard to the invasion of Spain. But rise very moderationi of France was proof of that, uspon: svhich he liad isever entertainedi a doubt-that if this couintry- liad at V'erotra only exercised that moral inftluence whirlshsie had acquired wsitlr floods of' iloorl anid treasure. laiti out int tire re- demiption of' Esrope...an irnifiience, wh'iiih, tirosigh not in itself'plsy- sical power, was anmere symrrol of tire possession of Physical prower, and whiceh svoutld isave itid-icated a prompt anid read)y tree of physical power upon any justifiable occasiort, as it was evident frosts the piapers on the table that France was in, the hiighest sicgree fluctuating atsd inclecisive upon the subject-that tsar niglirt hiave be en avertesd, and that spirit of-inedid-ling and initerference with tire affair of' othe r states, for wliins F"rance a'as so mnischievouisly reniarktble, might have been sufficiently rebnked. The present (luestion, then, wvas, if the issue of tire canmpaign had made France-less willing, in her iiiter- ferencc with tire circumstatrees of other countries ?The papers ott the table did most striktiugly' prove that the spirit of mseddling isster- ferenice. so far fromi being stitiduedh, had by the event been fostered and chierishedl snto a greater anid niore darrgerous siegree of' force, by tire success of lier arms its Spain. If' tse reusl object of the inv'asiorn had been to enfranchise, nothing couldl beI further from conpletion. 'rhe state of Spairs was any thitig rasther thati congratulatory 'and complIacent to arty one animiated with the love o-f national inrdlieprid- ne.Toprgraphls in the papers mostmuanifestly proved that Francee was niore thars ever influsencedl by, tie love of interfering weitil the affairs of inidependlent states. IHis lord.ship proceeded so read rlite f'ollowing extract frouri tire papers:-` 'PTs Prince de Peligiiac couild' trot coisceive what cosild be sireznit, under ithe irresent circumstarrc%s by a pure and simple ackmrowledgsssent of' thr~ independence of tire Spanish colonies, sinc those countries, being actually rdistracted by I civil swars, thecre existed no gov'errnmentr itn tirem windcl couldi ofler rany appearance "ofslidity ; tisiii tlat the ackirowledgrirettt of' Anse-I rcan rindepenrdece so lonig as suchi a stare of thitgsg continued, ap~ perd tblstobe nothiis'r less than a real sanction of' anarchy ; Iand tlteri hie adlded " that in tuec interest of hurunranity, alid especr- ally in thaEt of the -Sparrishs colonies, it wsouldI be worthy of tire Eur- ropean goveronsenre to concert together the isseans of calmning, isn those distant and scarcely cirilized regions, passionse blindedl by Iparty spirit;4 andl to endle,vour to brinig back to a principle of unioni in governm-ent, wvisether monarchical sr aristocratical people. arriong whomn absurd ituid dlangeronis theories were now keepming ulp agitation anti disunion." Wlas3 not this at variasrce with the laniguage of modte- ration used by tire Frencli last year in regardl to the in",asion of!Spaiti? And yet, isnder psresent circuirsstances, lire could nor ronceive thrat tire house couldl do better than confide in the psrudence of irinister:3, arid leave them entirely to iiranagetlireres,ult. Hecadmsired their conduct, itriottespecially in that return, so ill deserved by the Spasrisis Go- vernment, coinsidlering their former conrduct, when I England stoorI in similar relations to her coloniies, amid( vet so becoming irs a great, ee- nerus,andpoerfl ntioi,of etanig sorire degree of respect to the hadw o deartd geatess it suposrrgSpain to itossess tlsat conrolnoiitrllyselichthepossssorrofier coloniies once really iisplid,andths gvin t th clonesthemrselves a prelude and foreast oftha faih, onor, indprobity, witis webich this countr' had, and would at all timles mnaintain lier relations, weith otlier states. He hoped, hrowever, that the right bun. secretary for Foreign Afiairs woulsi give an exprhiuration tirat weould convince the Frenchi Mi'nistry of thse sentitnents whiclt prevailed itn this couni- try uspoii tire subject-..sentinients of liberality arid good feeinmg which distinguish ed Great Britain frorin all oilier powers, nor itn the possession of liberal constituitions-a distiiremion trot founded en our criiimercial andl trading advantages, but upon tire dliflerence wliich existed between real and noisirial representation of tire preople in the GovernirlentL Hie wouldl vote for the airnendnireur. The Earl of RO-;E BERY saw no difference its essential, between tire views of iris noble friend (the iM arqnuisof Lansdown'i wh) mnoved tie disctission, and those of the noble earls and lords opposite. The only questioir between tlie Vin was, that of tirse. It wias true that Ministers, generally speaking. wvould be able to judgce best of the momnent when interfereiice isight bc safest and most prudent: buit it was important that uspron tiis subject public opinion sbouildi be adequately, thousgh temiperatelv and resolately expressed by Parlia- ment_that the feelings and opinrions prevalentuaniong the British peo-. pie should be riiade knownir by tircir mlost legritimate anil deliberatire body. He imrost readilv aird frankly accor(sed tie confidence Olaiir- ed for niinisters; aird he gave hiis vote to the mt.otsot of Iiis noblc frienid (tse AMarqjuis of Lansdown), to aid and assist the Governmient in carrying into effect their owii vioews and plans, and in order to aidd the 'veight of the house to that of their own authority. Tre MI arquisof LANSLDO WN shortly replied. He wislied ttat the noble earl liad imrore distinctly cliostl the ground of his opposi- tion to the nmotion, by considering Spain as a power worn out, tire bare shadow of her formergrandeur; or adisiittinig her to be that which aU the world bet idesdid admit,as a pouver dependent for existence up. on the will of France, aird entirely umder the cointrol of that goveOrn ment. If tie noble carl oranvone in th^ hoise, would lay. his hand on his heart ancd say that be believed tlic timn would corsumc when Spaia wousld be readv to acknowledge the indepcndence of South America, lie would withdraw Isis notioii. They coulid not forget wbhart hadbAP tIme condluct of Spaims on other oecasions of this natisrc. Did it tae her 60 years before site coukl discover tire insdependlence of the states of Hlolland? The honour and glory of recogrizing itbe inteperdence of South America, proceeding by these iodes;, would nlot be claimn- ble by the present right hon. Foreign Secretary. Tsev ywoould fall due to one of his successors, now unborn, oAho miight hoitl his office somewhere about a centuty hence. If no possible contingencv could be looked for which could warrant tfuem in acknowledging tie indc- peiidence of South America, more than thcy were ivarranted unider present circumstances, delay could be of no possible use. -He bid the hoase remark how much m-ore creditable the conduct of' the govetrnment of the United States had been, in seizing uVon the honour of that aeed. They had acknowledged that independ. enee with aU due solemnities. bec_use thev felt that there twas even more in the solemnities than in the immeaiate faGt of recognition, to; give thsse states consequence in the eves of others, and also in' their own. There was nothing to hinder the British Government from pursuing the same course. It was not the acting of a selfish part to which ha invited them: he proposed nothingbut vhat wvoald redound to the benefit of all. Not onlvw ouldthtsestatesbethebetter for it, but the prosperity and glory ot Europe vould be increased. Their possessions would be strengthened, their resources fortified, bv the Governnent of this country assuming the attitude proposed'- and not only Spain, but Europe itself, would be eventunally released from the thraldom of a combination the most oppressive to thegene. ral liberties, hardly excepting the oppression of the system of Buo. naparte himself. The house then divided_ For the motion, 34 1 Against it, 95 1 Mfajority, fil Adjourned at a QUA.tTER PAST 'IXNE O'CLOCK. - PARLIAMENiVTARY INTELLIGENCTE. HOUTSEI: (1p 1,O)RflN - Al.- -