House Of Lords, Thursday,...
The Times, 1824-03-12T00:00:00

PARLI.MENTARY INTELLIGEANCE' 1,OrLU IUItr presented a petition from the Freemasons or thecit, and county of Limerick, praying that the act against secret societiee rnig'ht not be extendedt to thern. The Earl ofSEAFTE;SBURY presented a petition from Tewkes^ bury, praying for thc amdioration ot' the condition of the We'est In. The Itish church rates bill, and the annual indemnity bill, were read a thirdtune and passed. AUSTRIAN LOAN BILL. Tbe Earl of LIVERPOOL moved the third reading of this bill. osrd E-1OLLAND, in pursutance of the notice he had given, rose mrnake some ebservations on this measure. lie was certainly ready to acknowledge, and had alrelyacknowledged, that thouih the 5arn received onrt- Mtraviw fi6n Was much less than was due, yet that it was much more than the country, or the humble individual now addressing their lordships, ever expected to be paid by the im- perial debtor. He must therefore acknowledge, that much ability appear-ed i* haTe been employed in bringing this transacton to its present conwlusion. There was, probablv, also much exercise of the temper in the manner of conducting the negotiation; for as it was to be presumned there was some good feeling in the imperial cha- Tcter, it was doubtles3 thought advisable not to expose in plain terms tbe nature of the settlement, but to allow the debtor to take credit for some virtue, tbough he was at a loss what that virtue minnht be; it was not generosity, and it could hardly be called ho- nesty. He was readr, however, to acquiesce in this bill,and to concur in carrying itintoeffcct,but not in the statements and recital with which it bad been passed bv the Comnions. He gid not object so much to thc language of the preamble on account of his own opinion, as to preserve the consistency and dignity or ParliamenL In the convention on which the bill was founded,there might be some reason for concealing the sum due, and stating only that which was paid. He was aware that persons in high situations mnust have a mice sense of honour, or at least were always supposed to have it ; but whether they had it or not, from the means of Courts and the ser- vility unfortunately too cPmmon in human nature, that quality was always attributed to them. It was therefore to be presumed, tlhat those whoananagedathis transaction did not choose to exhibit it to one of the parties in its true light, but thought it necessary, from motires of dedcae, to disguise, as far as possible, the nature of it from his Inperial lajesty, whose nice sensibility would doubtless have been greatly affected to be told that he was conmpounding a debt, instead of honourably dischargng ilt This mnight be the excuse for not stating what was realy due in the convention, but he saw no reason for the souse delicacy irran act of Parliament. Great talent must, however, have been displayed. by the persons who managed this -dfir, so as to persuade his Imperial Majesty that his debt was paid. It was extremely difficult to discover how this persuasion could have been prodnced, and he had been puzzling himself with conjectures about it. Perhaps those who acted for his Imperial la- jNtv had been pursuing a study for which a gentleman on his (Lord Holland's) entrance into life was much distinguished. That gendeman, the late MIr. Horne Tooke, directed his attention to the ori,rinal meaning of words end their various applications. In spite of the little that was to be got by the barren nature of the one study, and the sandy nature of the other, he carried his etymology into metaphysics1 in order to acwunt for the dif%trent shades in the sense of words. NOw, as it did not appear from the convention that a ,word of doubt bad been thrown out as to the sum mentioned being less than it orght tQ have heen-as there was nowhere any specifica. tilont of the armount aue-he coulal not uniaerstanraby whiat kindl of logic it hail been siettled that the debt was paid. He had, conse- Uenitly, been, like Mlr. H. Tooke, dlrivenl to etymology, in order to 3icver the meaning which was attacbed':l in h ira eria court to the erb topay." Perhaps the negotiators derived it fromi the wordl PaRges because it was from dlistricts, towns, or the people who inhabit them, tihat all payments come, according to the `alyig, PtlgOrlsm popidi verti.ViiWz premtiminti- ahtd this-was what alt who were lavish ofthe public money, whether Bmperorm or le- sltr,shold well consider and bear in mnind. Another word, V.1ee,was perhiaps the origin of the idea conveyed in the conven- tion. It mnight corme fromn pacio or paci.rcor, because the imperial negotiator considered the matter done and settled-the bargain car- ried into effect, and conipletedI by the payment. If thii would not do, perhaps their lordships would allow tat the deriyation mnight bt from pacare, "to m-ake tractable," and also "to Pacify, satisfy, and appease." Thus his imperial Maj est mightc be taught to say, "It is true I do not pay myi~ deb'ts in ful , but I shall "e somne. thing to pacify and appease thosermemrbers of the Britishp.1ilaent who have been talking of my affairs." Sdmetliing had ateordingly been done to pacify and appease their lordships. A sum, notAmount- ing, to One-seventh of what was fairly duie, had been transmitted to this country. He had thus gone fhbraugli most of the waDrds from whjich those per.sonswhlo amused thecThaalesve ith such studies were likely to aecoustit for this new con'ventional meaning of the word Itpay." But he mUst not forget peru:, and that brought to his recol- 1ecti~ the oldenFleece, which hI ben fperred to his Imperial Maiijesty's famnily, from the Dukes of Burgundy, and accorcding to -which the House of 'Austria, withi refe- Tence to thlis tra nsaction, mifflht still say-P seliusm ntol vike /abOri.'. As muckh. ingenuity tad doubtles been exercised by the learned mren of Atist ria, in satisfying anvimnperial scruples whicn might hiave existei its to the meaning of paying one's debts, it was to be hoped that their labours would -more reconcile their Emperor to learning, Hie hiad hieard stories of a visit paid 8otne years ao byhsIperial Mlajesty to Italy, in thecore f w,inch that Sovereign was said to have exhibited no great desire to encourage any k-ind of study. From what was re- Ipred, it would appdar that his lImperial Mlajesty wanted for sub- ects _men 0h never troubled themnselves eithrwt raigo thning. He sincerelv liopied that the next timehis Inpei a- l. jesty~ shol .'t hiis foytil andI learned University o ai,h would shoxi that he entertained a grateful senise of the se iewich soe clever scholars hadi rendtered hlim by so ably glossing the word pay.", Then, indeed, he miight lie expected to exclaim- H ow charming is divine philosopliy I " Not harsh and crabbed, as dull fools suppose, "But musieal as is Apollo's lute "And a perpetuaal feast of nertar1d sweets, " WVhere no erude surfeit reigns." But let the Court of Vienna explain the matter as it mighit, it was for their lordships to take care that they did not pass a bill which on the face of it suppressed a fact 'and contained an Absurdity. The preamble recited that this couintry had granted two loans to the Emperor of Austria, and it was; afterwards stated that his Imperial Majesty would pay 2,500,0001L in satisfaction of the debt thus contracted. Nowit might be convenient to give up cla-inuing the full repayment, and to bec satisfied andI appeased withi these 2EM0U 000 but whiy was not the amiounit of thne debt stated ? Were deir iordshi'ps aware of the amtount of the sums whiich this country hiad expended on Austria ? Besides subsidies, the debt in ques- tion arose fronm two loans contracted f6r, the one in the year 1795, the other in the year 1792. Tkwo reasons were assigned for granting these loans.' The first was, that the money af- forded facilities for bringing Austria inito the field; the second, that good security 5rAs given bv that power for the'repayment ; in6ced, it was boasted in that house that the security was as solid as that of the Bank of England. It was triumphantly, saidI that we could suae the Emperor for the money in his ownA Courts. These rea. sons3, anld the great advantage oflthe co-operation of' Austria to the com-mon cause, were the groundcs urged tor this profuse expen,(liture of thiepublicmoncy. But wha,ttwas therea,ult of thiis extrzvagance? Part of the mnoney arising from these loans was actually not paidI to the Emperor of Austria unitil after he had made peace, and was in his turni pavzing money to the enemy of' this country. After the peace of eainpo Formin was conclud(ed, remiittances of thie instal- Inents of these loans were maile to Austria. The two loans amiount- ed to mnore than 6,000,0001., and this couintry was bound for the pay- ment both of' principal and interest. Great Britain guaranteed the payment of certain annuities for 25 years, which on the wlitole amounted to more than 5,00O,0001. ; as, to the interest, it appeared th-st his amenal Majesty never pald for more than ant year. These annuities added to the origin-al debt mnade about 12,600,0001. Btit we were still bound to pay for a time about 223,0001., WhtiCh taken at the 'pltaunt rate of the money mnarket, mlight be rec'krned at other ,5 millions. So that, with what was paidI andI what was lost, the bargain cost the couintry altogethier about 17.J millions. This was the amouint without calcuilating the loss by compoundl interest, which hie mighit Lava done. For thiis vast sumll thiat was now paid was 2~ milliens. Such bring the nature of the transaction, he~ was not surprised that his Imperial MAajesty didl not c'hoose to describe it; but lie saw no reason whyv it should niot hlave been fairly recorded by the framers at this bill. Hle had heard that this extraordinary settlement of ani account had somewhere or other beeni cotisideredi as a " God-send." Such a description of the trans. action certainly wvas not very decorous to the Emperor of Austria, for it was a plain ackr.owledginent that to pay hiis debts was the last thing expected 'by- those who were the loudest in their approbation of his Imiperial Majesty's stense of honour and justice. He sliould like to know whiat would be said of a simillar case in tlitercivofLondon. WNere lie to gowithin Temp)le-bar withi a proimiasory-ilote for 10,OOO1L, ancl inquire thec character of the per- son wliose signature it bore, would it not be strange if in answver to hii inquiries somne one should lauinchi out in praise of' the acceptor, andi say-" Oh, there's not an lhonester mian in the world, nor one more able and willing to pay his debts"-and after all to enid with the observation, II if' you get 1,0001. from hiun, it will bye a God- send." It seemied necessary for him to say thtis much, to dissipate the delusion which prevailed, anti to miake it be kept iItn mind that this money received was really nothing more than a smnall comiposi- tion for a large debt. Tihese 2,t0,O0001. seemed, however,to bereceiv- e(l by certain Oersons,asifna shower of gold had descended upon tiem. They seemned at a loss wh.at to do wtith it, and look-ed anxiousl1* atbout for objects, to e,)'end it utpon. "1 How shiall we lay, it out ? Does the Church want any cthing? Does the C'rown wantany hin? wee te exlamtions which this God-sendi excted No, i thir ordhip' ouse, or the other liouse of Pariamnt,thoghtfitto ivethepub~lic-moner to palaces or rhurhesnd,by-he-b, i wa rearkable th t the church of l'nlnn, wichwasoneof he ichstchurches in Europe, a as the onl on heverhead o tht nverdidaii thng oritseltZhe did uiot mean to say that suchi an applicto of onyiight not be right, that weas a question for considerto btcrainly thiere- son of its being right was not the receito tis oney, from the Emperor of Austria, though the wholemnr in wlichl the subject had been treated tendedI to impress that Op]inion on the pub- li.The people of Englauid, like the fleece of Gidleon, received thie dew which was afterwrards wvrung out of' them. A commisi.sion hiad been appointed for regulatiiig ruec repairs of Wlindsor P'alace. To this lie seriously objected. Wi hatever was thoughit necessary to bedone in that way, ought to be done under the direction of the legal and official servants of the Crown, on their responsibility, lie saidI this solely from ajust constitutional jealousy. Those wlio biad prn. montedl this nmeasure, among whom were miany- persons whom he res,pected, woul1d not suppose that he reflected oni the apoointniient of this comimittee! on any other ground titan that fie consi- dered it derogatory to the Crown. It was derogatory to thle Crown, because thie Constitution always supposed. tchat it was left to the constitutional officers of the Crown to dietermine what manene- ought to be expended on such objects. It might be said that the object of the commission was to take care that nothing unsuitable to the ho- nour of the country should be dove. Tliat, however, was a reasoit wliich was not very complimentary to Itie Crown. But even viewed in that way,lie could not look at the institution of a conmuiittee of taste as thie best mieans of attaining suchi sit object. In the affairs of Governmciistlie was willing to go as far as mast people-indeed, many of' his ttieiids thoughit lie went too far in support of the maximt that', in the multitude of counsellors there is wisdom." But in the affairs of taste as wvell as of wvar, he wasI convinced that thne direction ought to be left to oRe individual ; because as the faniner required promptness of execrution, so did the latter siinplicity of (lesmgn, and these advantages could only be obtained bytrustiing to indlividuals. Hle need nor go far front their lortlsliips' house to find many instances, whichi might prove that commnittees of taste, thoug-h composed of men of great eniinence in various departments, niever producedi any tlitiig that did lhonour to the country. It was not, however, on this.grountf that he ob- jected to the commission, buttbeaus its appointmient was iso invasion of the constitutian. If any citing more importantt than another had been gained to this country by the revoluition, it was the necessity under wvhich the servaitts of the crown were placed, of having the coisfidence of Parliament. Hle was therefore against lseig their responsibility, It was necessary that they shlould always keep ini mind that the servants of the Crown inust have the confidence of the Crown ; but that could not be secparated from the confidence of both houses of Parliamnent. Hie did not mean to say, that the evil to whichi this mea- sure tended was desired. It was not done, he Lselieved frouii design, but arose oat of tha't eanvenience of the momnent, by which the noble earl the otlier night excused another measure. Their loraships ought, howe'ver, to be on their guardI agatinst the tendency of thus yiel ing to the convenienc-e of the momtentt.He should therefore 'nave, that this bill be re-cormnitted,with the intention of altering the preamble. The Earl of LIVERPOOL fIt hat.Ahe nob,p lrd -had.been -very enterrtfiining in the fifit' pare of his speech. After attending, hiowever, very closely, it did riot appear what his object was. W'hets the noble lord gave notice of his intentioti to call the consideration of the house to this bill, it appeared that he hatl in view to object to the phraseology as,not sufficiently desribing what was -meant to be eniacted. No person couild suppose that it would be proper to draw up such a bill as the present, and in a very off'en- sive nmanner. But what more could be done, than merely to refer to the transaction as it took place ? The fact was, that a loan hail been granted to Austria, and this country had accepted a sum in lieu of the whole demiand. The real object of the nuoble lorda- peaecttObe athr o rad hchouse a lecture ORa the A^ustrian Go. vernment, than to make any amendment on the bill. Had this been done fairly, he should not have thought it objectionable ; lit the noble lord acted like a counsel pleading, and brought fbrward every thing unfavourable to the side he opposed, keeping in the back ground every thing tending to the honour of the Austrian GovernmRent. The noble lord argued, that this nioney had been granted to the Emperor of Austria, without any necessity-as if no wars had intervened between the time at which it was advanced, and the time of payment; and as if no good reason could be assigned for letting it lie over for 25 years. He appealed to their lordships, whether any body listening to the noble lord's speech would not consider this to be the nature of the transaction ? The whole question, however, at the time the loan was granted, was, whether it would be better to give Austria six milUions in that way, or as a subsidy ? Mlany persons thought it would have bean better to have granted it as a subsidy than as a loan; and certainlv at the tisne the transaction was carried into effect, there was no individual who voted for the loan who would not have voted giving the mo- ney as a subsidy. It was true, as the noble lord sail, that some of the instalinents had been remitted after the peace of Campo Formio; but after that peace, Austria had been engaged in no less than four wars-itaniely, the war which terminated witll the bdttles of iMa- rengo and Hohenlinden ; that which terminated with the battle of Atstcerltz; that which terminated with the battle of Wagram; and that wrhich terminated with the battle which brought the afFairs ol Europe into the state in which they were niow placed. He be- lieveX that no public man, who had examined the transac- tions of those times, could fail to be convinced that Aus- tria had, in all those wars, fougJht to the last-that she never yielded but from necessity, adti was always ready to cilse again, against the common enemy. Under those circumstances, it became this Government to consider what was due to Austria. He had already stated, that there had been four wars sice the loan was granted. During those wars three subsidies had bcea granted to Austria, and in granting those subsidies not a word had been said on the subject of this loan. When the friends of the noble lord were lIn onEce, they themselves oftered a subsialy to Aus- tris, if $he WOUld muach and co-operate with Prussia- He certainly, did not blamne them for this; but hee wriched to remind the noble lord, that int making that Offer, nO idea of the repaymenit of the loan was suggested. Austria did Iot march; but notwithstanding -herrefusal, soine charges which the Austrian government had incurred were paid bythe nobleloed's friends; and inliquidatingtboie charges they never once. reminded. Austria of the existence. of this loan. The present Government, however, did call upon Austria to settle this transaction;- but he certainly was not sankuine as to the amount which might be received. At the same time, such was his sense of the policy, which ought to be followed by the AustrianGorernment, he would have advised the payment of something. Mlany persons, well informed on the subject, w,ere perfectly convinced that nothing had more tenided to taiise the credit of that Government than this vrm easre and he was convinced that Austria haa gained more thnsh ot by this payment. When all1 the cicmtncswr taken into consider211oh, any -reasonable persons. would be in. dcined to doubt that we were juistified in asking so muchi as we did, rather than thaI we should demiand-more. As to the per- sonal- character of the Emperor of' Austria, no sovereign ever sat on a throne who cherished more honourable feeling. He doulbtless was desirous to bring the transaction to an alj ustmnent ; but whatever miisconception might have g one abroad, he must alsoi say that 'the individual by whom his Imperial Mlajesty is supposed to be chiefly adv-ised, wasL also convinced of thu npcessity e-f making the arrangemnent. His noble friend hiadl alluded to what hiad passed elsewhere on the subject of this l(an, when an hon. friend of his stated the manner in which he proposed to prov-ide for ce-rtain lpublic serices. lIn opening the state of the, financees for the year, his noble- friend referred to the receipt of 2,600,0001. received from Austria, and stated that Governmenit would be enabled, not in conisequience Of that payment alone, but by. it and the exi-stence of a surplus re- Yenue, to afrord some relief to the country, andl to apply' an equal sum to certain Purposes. The objects to which the application was phroposed to be made were those which appeared mosit necessary, and' th eftreet would be to relieve the surplus from any such burden for four f'ears to come. Special objects were pointed out for the appropriation of the sunii of 2~ imillions. Ile should say nothing abouit the 600,0001. proposeEd to be granted for churches. After what had been said on a former occasion in that house, on that subj'ct, it couldi not now be necessary to discuss it. The other appropriation which had been' alluded to was equally unobjectionable. It was, for the preservation and or- nament of a structure which was venci-ated in this country, and had always been admired by all foreigners who had the oppor- tunity of viewing it. The receipt of the money from AustriaL had given facility to the arrangements which the Government had in view; but the sipecific sum whic'h had been proposed to be applied to the bu'ildinmg of churches, and`t?o the repairs of W1indsor Castle, must haebens applied; although the money had never been paid by Austria. He therefore coulld noL think th;e observations of his noble friend were at all warranted. It was true, that if the expense fi,r WVintlsor C-astle had been paid directly out of the civil list, the usual methotl wo'uld have been observed; but it was surely much better to havye the workw carried on undler the control and direction of a coim- mittee.As he had said it wassnot anew palace whichi was to be built, but some necessary alteratiions were nierelv to be miadte in a structure wliceh was the object of genersl'admiraltlon. Funds muit.have been funti or carryinsg on she wdt-ks, for thie repairs could hot have been delayed. As to thec bill, he saw no ambiguity, in it ; and withi re. pird-to thte sum ex-pressed, in it, the counitry had received as mutchi from Ausrtria as it-had any title to expect. Lord'KING objected strongly to thie preamoble of the bill, in not mentiening.the sum received fo'm Austria as the payment of adebt. Without-such an acknowledgment in direct tat-ms, ttie clause in the preml wag unintelligible. Nobody could certainly deny that we adacdmoney to the Government of Auistria under a promise of repayment, and that this was, our 'only return. 'What else was ne- cessay to constitute a debt? It had been said that our money wvas expeRded in wars, and was not productive toAustria: buit for whomt were these wars carried on ? Not for us, because we had shiown that we could saftrd to pay for thie charges of our own quiarrels, but for the Emperor of Austria. It was true the Emperor diid not succeed in these wars-a circuimstance -which he (Lord King) could not mnuch lament buit that was not our fault. Thie Emperor only showed that he had then made the same kind of miscalculation respecting the difriculties of the contest and the probabilities of suic- ce.ss, which he had since made respecting the amount of his obliga- tions to us, and the suass necessary for fulfilling thiem. Had the transaction hetween the Emnperor and us been placed onl its, proper footing, either in the preamble of the bill or in the statements of thie minister, mutch of whhit was now said against tlte Austrian Govern- ment ighthavebeenepsid. Poplewould noit inv that case, Pro- babl,hae ben s maicius aro avetalked about those 2 millions and hal, a a avitg ot ofa bnkrut'spropet-sacmposi- tionwithan isolvnt-a a sall ercetagercoed at a great failre-s hlf--crwn n te pundwrung from an unwilling or dishnes debor.Nor oul theutiisters have insulted the Em. peror, by pretending suiprise that he sliould pay his debts, andI calling that payment a God .rend. In order to show that the preamble might hi,ve been more precise on the suibject, and have denominated this money the payment of a dlebt, he begged to call the attention of their lordships to) the transactions ouit of wiciih the debt abose. The Mlinister of the day, M r. Pitt, called upon Par- liament to lend this money to the Goverisment of Auistria, on whiat he termned good security-the very beat security. A regular contr-act was entered into-the dleed was' signed, sealed, anti deli- vered. hir. Pitt boasted of the certainty whicl, it was gave us of r-ecoVEring our due ; he even went the length of saying, that if the Emperor refussud to pay us volunitarily, we could sue himn like a reluctaLnt debtor in his own courut. (Hlear.) Now hiere hie (Lordl Kxing)would beejeave to ask whiether theministerstated this lastrecu- rity trout excess of caution, or for sthe purposes of delusion. (Hear.) Thfis appeared to hiun a very, proper questioni to be resolvedl by the Pitt club, and he rmight expect to see it answered at its next mneet- ing. (A awAgb.) Some persons were disposed to put the latter in- terpretation on the words of t~e minister, while others liad consider- ed the money transaction meMconed in the bill before the houise as the result of sL Iegal proceeding, or the proceeds arising oxit of the sale of a bankrupt's estate. God ftbid that he (Lord King should so con- sider it. God forbid chat heVw)tuld inisinuate any thi ng against the honour of his Iniperi alMajesty or even hint a suspicion that the Emperor had not paidI hisi just 2lebts. As ouir power to sue him in hiis own courts hiad been so binadlyvstated, lito (Lord IKing) had aright toanssume that our rulers hl~d done so-that the suit haid been carried on for the laist- '20 years, and that as it ittppeieed neare hom, a reatpartof te cotestd prpert hadbeen s wal- lowe onin fes f cort nd oherlaw xpeses(a laugh.) The gear cuse f " Rx v. mperr," iivolinso great an inteestmus hae ben eardandre-ear-itmus hae been con- sidredati ttanre-onsdeed-c msthave been argued and re-ar- gued, before the Austrian great judge of equity. The (.ourt mnust lhave taketi home the papers (a lauglh), and then the Court mnust lhave lost the papers; and the Coure must hiave required to be re- freshied (a laugh) ot, the cause, and sup plied with newv papers. The Couirt afterwvards must have fixedt a day for judguiient, and that day baring arrived. the Court must not have given judgmient ; and then the Court, utiider a solemin promise to givle judgnenit, must have dixcii upon anothier day and when. that otlier day came, the.Court must have had a tloubt (a laugh), and have postponed its decision to another (lay, ; andt wheni that othier day arrired, the C~ourt must haie required again to he re- freshed. tA laugh.) At last, wheon the law and the lawyers had lhad their full awing, and twenty years had been spent in forwarding the cause, the Court mus,t have pronouinced its decree, by whiceh the Emnperor was ordered to pay the account of 2,500,1000I.. whiile wve paid by far the greater sum to the lkwyers, and in the bill of costs. (A laugh.) WVe had thus obtained only 2,600,0001. out of six millions which was the original loan, and we lhad lost all the inter- est, which in the cours;e of 24) years had swelled the debt to 211 siillions; but we could not very muds coniplain, while we considler- ed what mliglit have happenedI nearer liotise-naineIy, chiat we niight have lost not only the original principal sumn of six millions, but miight hiave expended, in an attempt to recover it, the othier 2.J sitil- lions, wvhich we~ Were now enabled to pocket- (A laughi.) With the proeed o ths sccssfl sitat iena, Ministers were enabled to epel or lw txesto iveus awcheaper at home. (A laugh.) Atioter cnseqence,probbly,of tis expensive litigaLtioni withtheEmprorwas,a bll o dminsh the expenses of law proeedng~fo th feovey f salldcbs.Governmniit had found it s dificilt o rcove ths det fom ustria, thiat it was willing so fclitate the recovery of other dlebts. Thien, fromi the experience of the evils of delay in our suit with the Emnperor, mninisters had seen the propriety of' instituting inquiry into the cautses of delay in tlie Court of Chancery. (A laug~h). All these beneficial consequences he was glad to perceive, had resulted fromn the termrination of his lo.ng.- protracted suit at Vienna. Now lie thioughit ministers ought to have inserted a proper description oif tbese transzactions, and an avowal of the debt, in the yiiemmble to the bill before tle house.- (Hear.) The Earl of ABERDEEN said, that in riising to make a few ob- servations on the question, he wouldl refrain from- noticing thespeech of the noble lord opposite (King), Which was of too fac-etious a nature to requirean answer. He (LordI Aberdeen) was prepared todefend the Court of Vienna, from any im-putation of bad faith or dishonest feeing in the present transaction. The loan for which we were now paid thei 2,5Of0,0MO. was advanced to Austria for the accomplish- mnofobjects particuilarly contnected with the interests and policy of Great Britain. It was a British object at that timle to drive the French from the Austrian Netherlands; and to enable Austria to effect this, an advance of money was necessary. AMr. Fox said at .tlse timne, that so little did he expect its repayment, he would have preferred a subsidy to a loan. It rwss~Apcliarly. destined to enable- AtustriA C0 ffo'rdfli'oiesilon' of the l'N etlierlands, that its repay.ment was fixed on the Belgic revenues. Had the enterprise succeeded wvhich thi-s money wa, intended to promote, there couldi be little doubt that the loan would hiave been punctually paid. That it was% rather intended as a subsidy than a loan, is evident from the fact that we had thirice subsidized the Austrian (4o- vernment since, anti had never alluded to this debt. In 1805, in 1809, and in 1813, when -Austria received pecuniary aid from us, no mention was made of any obligation under whichi slite previously lay. Hiad the subject been mentioned, and had Austria, anticipating, a future claim, requested at ans' of these epochs that this dlebt should be aninulled, could any noble lord believe that the dematid would have been resisted ? Austria had therefore a right to be surprised tst the renewal of this claim. In 1816, when, after hvnpasdwhat was cialled two successive bankruptcies, the Aus- trtan t}overninent determined to adopt a new financial system, it published a list of allits debts atid property. In this list the debt to Great Britain did not appear. On seeing this list, we were bound to mention so important an omission, if we nmeant to make a fu- ture claim ; but we took no such step. WVhat surprise must not Austria haye felt, therefore, when after this the alaim was revived. Much had been said about suing the Emperor in his own courts, and if he had been so sued, probably his courts would have decid- ed against him ;. but he (Lord Aberdeen) doubted, after what had passed, after 20 years' silence with so many opportunides of making the caim, whether ours would have given a decision against hin. (Hear.) The amnount of the sum advanced in lieu of all claims had been the subject of much animadversion, but that amount was not a question of will, but of ability. Had Great Britain demanded more, she would have obtained nothing. Yet the sum, small as it was, compared with tbe nominal amount of the debt, was nearly as mucl as Austria had received. Though the loan was about six millions, yet, from the state of the exchanges, and the dif- ficulties of transfer, not much more than three reached the coffers of Austria. The money was so much advanced for British interests, that it was stipulated to be expended under the inspection of British officers. Officers had accordingly been appointel for the pturpose, and there was no doubt that every tarthinF of it had been employed to for- ward operations which fell in with the policy of our Governmetit. He(Lord Aberdeen) was gladtnathi noble friend (Lord Liverpool) had not only done jusuceto the charactcrof theEmperorofAustria, butto thatofhis minister ( PrinceMetternich),in this transaction. With regard to the Emperor, he could uy that a more virtuous Prince never gatontltethroneofany country; butstill he would add, that contrary to the advise of his- chief Mister, he woald not have urged the re-payment of this sum. The noble earl then expressed his appro- bation of the objects for whiCh a part of this sum was to be em- ployed-the tsalding of churches the creatioIn of the picture gal- lery, and the repairs ot W'indsor datle. The Govermne.et ought to see that the money for public buildings should not be ex- pended as it had been. Architecture was carried to a higher pitch in this country than ever it was, and mei of the first character would see to the proper application of the gifts of Parliament. Lord CLIFDEN observed, that the money which we lent to Austria bad Ooand its way into the pockets of Napoleon. The fashion seemed now to be to complement the Emperor nf Austria - but if he (Lord Clifdeil) could credit the account which ilIr. Rose gave of Italy, a more cruel tyrant never existed than the Emperor appeared to bein that part ot'lis dominions. (Hear, hear.) Yet this account came from no jacobiia or radical, but from a gentleman whose claracter and opinions gave weight to his tesdtmony on such a subject. Lord ELLENBOROUGH tbought the Emperor an absolute angel conipared with the rest of the lHolv Alliance. He was the only member of that alliance on whom we gould place confidence as an ally. Adverting to the commission to be appointed to wuperin- tend the expenditure of the money to be grante for public build- ings, the noble lord asked if it was to be a parliamentary commis- sion,orone app ointed by the Crown ? The EWarl of LIVERPOOL said that the duties of the commis- sion might be settled by Parliament, and the names be filled up by Lord ELLENBOROUGH hoped the commissioners would be naled by act of Parliament. He was glad to se an increasing jea- lousy directed towards the expenditure of parliamentarv grants. After a few obseryations from the Earl or DARaLE-, in reply to whom Lord LIVERPOOL observel, that every shilling of the 24 millions had been received, wvith the deduction only of the discount forypromptpaynment, the hill was read a third tine, and passed. 'the lMarquis of LANSDOVN moved for leave to bring in a bill to relieve dissenters (as we understood) from the operation of clauses in the Marriage act. The bill Was broughi in, and read a first time._.Adjouraed at seven oclock. HOUSE OF L,ORWS - .