House Of Commons, Tuesday...
The Times, 1824-03-10T00:00:00

--- -- -uiuo presenrecu a petitionl from Spilsbv. in Lin- COlflihireaainst Negro slavery. Mr.PAItES presented a similar petition from three parishes in Leicestershire. Mfr. J. MlARTIN presented a Petition against the combirnation laws, from the mechanics of Tcivkesbury.-.Referred to tliecomimit.. tee on the combination laws. MVr. C. DUNDAS presented a petition fromi the victuallers of Newbury, against thie excise licer,ces. 314r. BYNG presented a similar petition from the v'ictuaUers of Brenitford. Also a petition from the united parishes of St. An- drew, Holborn, and St. George the Mlartyf, against the window-tax. Mr. JAMES presented a petition from Franicis Bott, of Liver. pool1, against the legacy duties. Ilir. GRATTAN p resented a petitioN, signed by the Romuan Cathiolic hierarchy of Ireland, and nmany of the mnost respectable clergy,.complaining of the regulations ot'several charitable insti-. tutions; which were enforced to tile injtury and disparagement of their religion. 'Jibe chiief grievance referred to the system of edu- cation persisted in by the different school establishmentzs. He thought that the prayer of the petition could be consiideredI as only rational, which besoughit fromn the lmouse that where mio- ney was granted for the education of the poor, in placts where there were scarcely any other people but PRoman Catholics, lhat their own clergymen, andt not those of tie Protestant church, should he intrusted with the administrationof soineportion at least ofsuchi grants. This subjectL besides its general and seriouis importance, was the miore entitled to their attention fromi the consi- deration that ttie system of Protestant mnanagement exclusively liad liot produced any very desirable results, and the Protestant schools were likely to reqjuire an additional gant this y-ear. For the Pro. testant chaurter..schools, it was designiedto ask for a vote o!'70,0001.; and in the course of 17 years froii their foundation till this timie, there hiad been enipended onldem no less than half a million), wvhile only 2,000 ingividuals had comnpleted their education in themi. Ha could spak of his own knowvledge to very gross mnismanagemient ixn the administration of the fund, for that whichi was called the liord Lieutenant's schiool. It was his intention shortly to miove for ascom- mittee to which should be referred the svstem of' education for the poor in Ireland ; and he did not doubt, should it be granted, that some mnethod wouild be found out for sa~tisfying the miinds bothi of Protestants and Catholics upon it. Mlr. (IOULBURN, in the absence of documients, contentedl him- self with a broad denial of any mismanagement in the funds allowed for education. He could not admiit the prayer of'thec petition for money to be applied to the uses of the Romian Catholic clergy to bring up the children of the poor in their ownv faith. It wss sowing the seedts ofl continual discord, andi niursing antipathies already too vigor6us. There must necessarily he a restraint in the application offundsgrar.t- ed by a Piotestant GoverDnnent foredurcating the poor. Thiat restraint was the most moderate which cotald be devised; it only required a pledge that the Scriptures shiould be re.td in the sclicols, which were open alike to all religions, withiout note or comsment. These condi-I tions hiad been complied withi in niumerous instances by, the residenit Roinan Catholic clergy, notwithstanding the opposition of their sui- periors, and thie parents of Romanl Cathiolic children hiad senit thiemi to the schiools in mainy places wlhere thc prirests were opposea to it. The efl~'ct was an increasing spirit of union and c-onciliation amnong tile people. Sir JOHNNEWNPORI'conmplained.tiiat althoughiin tlieimonth I of July, in the last session of Parliament lie hadl mioved for a va- riety, of papers connected wii the subject before the house, with the intention of calling the attention of the hiouse to it befoe the grants were mioved for, yet they were not at the present mioment on thieir table ; and, as he was informned, no communication of the order-, of the house hazd been miade to tite parties who were to comiply with it till the last mionth. His intetion wasto havenmoved for a conm- mittee to inquire into the whiole of the subject, for, undoubtedly, thie benefits of education oughit to be extended to the whiole body of the pepe ithout being subject either. to the reality or the apprehicii- lin of11~ iwts being converted into an engine of proselvytismi. dir. D)AIVSON doubted whlethier, in point of 1orcm, this petition could be received, purporting to comne fronli the Cathiolic Bishops of Ireland. He contended that the greatest benietits liedi resulted to Ireland fr-om the, system of educationi as already, established, and he disclaimed for thie Charter ar,d other schools aniy intention of abusing thle trusts reposedI in thiem to the piurposes of proselytism. d,Ir. J. SMITH thouglht the readinig thle Scriptures in thie schools withioat note or commnent wias a niost desirable object, anti one to which no objection could be mnade. Mr. PLUNKETT said, whatever difference of opiinion miight exist oni the subject ofthtie petition, there wvas nio doubt the Petition- ers were entitled to be hecard withi tie most respectful! attention. He thiought his hon. friend 01r. (coulburn) was mistakien in the cha. racter of the petition, in supposing it asked for a grant of public malo- ney ; andi his oilier lion, friend (dir. Dawson) appeared to himi to be also in error as to the character o' time persons whio si~eed it. It was the -lpetition of the undersigned Carbolic Bishops." Thaws a righit description. Those persoiis were bishops of aChitan hlurcLes,and were coimpetent to give oidination as suchi; and it they were to conformi to the Protestant church, they wvould becomne bisliops of that clisurch. I-le hiad satid thiis, lest tlie petitios shiould ha rejected in point of form. Oiii the imatter of' the petitioni he would isav, that lie agreed withi the sentiments expressedl by thie honotirable mueniber for Waterfbord (SirJ. iNewport), anid lie ulso agreed with imany of the allegationis of thie reverenid peLtitonlers,IlIe agreed with theni on the importance of education, anid that no systemi of educationi could be safely conducted, of which religiiou was not thie bas4is. He thtought it impracticable and chinterical to rest aniy sys- tens of' education oti m-orality onily; thie attem-pt, in his minol. wvas not only useless, but pernicious. Ihow far it isiight be practicable,I fromn the state of the funds in these schiools, to support tei:chers of ~he separate persuasions, it auight be dlesirable to ascertain. I Sir Hl. PA R ELI, said a few worts. dir. ABERCROMBY thought tile best results had been expe- r-inened from tue reading of the Scriptures without note or coisi- nient, where it liad beeni practised w,ith the consent of thle Catholicc :lerg, bu he houldbe dcidely aver-se to niakinjg that coin-I pulsrs'.Whenver he sbjec of he rants camie before the house,i ie shuld ressfor snic ssisance toite schools in thle south, oft Irelnd,wha hadfolowe thepratic towhiciihbe had alluded. Mr. V FITZERAL thouht hs hon. friend (Mr. Girattan) nad eenmismifonedwhe he tatd tat the guotl elfects of their ,chools had not beeii conformable to thle expectationis of PIarliamient.t In two coutities in the sotith of' Ireland, whichi were alniost exclu-c ;ivelv Catisolic...he inieamit Limerick and Gjalway-the schools hadc :onsiderably increased. In 1817 there were only three schools; butI1 n 1823 they hiad inicreasedI to 108. He assured the house that therer ivso no partiality in the management of the schools, of whlich himat thet Catholics theiiiselves w'ere now satisfied,. lie eulog,ized the objects )f the Kildare-street Society,, which hsad,during the last year,pramited mnd sold 121,00(0 volumes, at a cheap rate, with the intenition oftI Iriving out of tie market the corruptinig trashi whichi before pervaded f t, and which object they had in a great isieasure accomnplished. Mlr. D. BRO WrNE thlouglht thie Kildare-street Society would nave done a great tleal miore good if they hiad not stipulated, as ai duze qua nion, that the Bible shiould be readf withiout note or CouiMentL in the scliools to which they lent mxoney. it was the opinion of'seve-f ral dignitaries of the chiurch of Englandt, that the Bible slhould notr be put into the hands of the igiiorant. unaccompanlied by aiiy expla- nation. W~hile, lhowever, nearly six m illions of thle populationi ofr Ireland ware separated fromi the stae, lie did niot meaii in the part.- ,:ipon of civil offlices, but separated by the episcopal governmient, It was in vain to expect a remedy for the evils whiich existedl. Mr. PEEL regrettedI that any topics upon~ which a great difference1 ifOino wa knw to exist shiould be mixed up withi the subject ~f this petition, upon whichi all lion. imenibcrsweeard.Iap peared to hiiii that there were two great principles by which 6 th nducatioin of the poor of Irelandl should be effected. Thie firsct was to unite, as far as it was possible to do so withiout coniimitting I 6violence upon the feelings of the people, the children of Cathlolic and i Protestant parents in one systeml of educaition. The second, thlat in t ,ducating Catholic children, the persons intrusted with the tak an Ic ~hose directing it, should honestly, puinctually, aiid faithfully dis-I mrd all attempts at proselytism. (Hear, hear.) lie liad co-operat- r id with his righit honourable. friend, the miembcr for Clara, in the v Formiation of the societY which had been alludied to, and ait thlat pe- i! riod he could hear testimlonY that every intention of' proselvtisiist ass absent froin, lie believed, all the personis cominected with thec so-Id ,ieiy. He trusted that as tiere was a geeaIcodneo h ilain principles, no party animosities would be adinitted into the e tiscussion of thii subject, and that when its details camle to be de- I sated, here wouild be no interference of aiiy, less worthiy felimigs8 hanthos bywihthe questionooughitto bereguilated. (.Har.) r Mlr. C. GRANT said, he had thought it his duty to inquire into r ,he charge of prose'lytism whiich had been miade againist the society, tA intl that it appeared to him to be withoultfoundatioii. The society tC sad even so far relaxed its original rules as to permiit tihe circulation p if the Roman Catholic version of the Scriptures. n Thie petition was then brought up and read. On the mnotion of e 1Vr.GRATTAN, thatitdohieon the table, hieexplained that lie had p ni-ade no charge againsttlie Kildare-street Society ; but hedeprecated tf lie effect of rival-institutions; and convinced as he was that no good a :ould be effected, but, by the adoption of one universal system, bet mwri o hope of suich a systemi, unless it shiould he enforced by thet stutliority of the hoxse. h The petition was then ordIered to he printed. h On the motion of Colornel W&'LPO .E, the Spe-aker wa-s orderedito p issue hiis writ for the return of a memnber for King'bLynn,in thieplacet of the Mlarquis of Titehbdeld, decesed. ob sy Sir J. N-EWPORT gave notice of his intention to pursue thleoh ject of the petition whichi hadl been Just received, by moving for at comimittee to inquire into the best mlethlod of educating the poor off Ireland. The noise which at tilis momnent prevailed in ttite house c prevented us fromn hearing the day fixed by the right horm, baronetc for this purpose. SOUTH AMERICAN COLONIES. Sir j. MACINTOS H put off hiis iiiotion oii this subject1 which he last nighitfixed for Thursl-day the 18th inst. but here, also, we found it imipossible to catch the day to wlhich h tie motion was host. poned. M1r. SyKES mo(ved for a return of the dIuties paid, for the yeari1 ending the 1st of' Jatiuary, 1824, on blubber and train-oil procuredI fronm fsh caught by tie creics of British vessels; and also for a rc-I turm of the bouinties paidl to the owners of such vessels during the I same period.-Ordered. Mr. EVANS presented a petition from three parishes in Not. tin~hamahire, praying for the total abolition of slavery. Sir U. BURGH presented a petition from Freemasons of Ireland,I praying to ha put in the same conditioa as the Freemasonis ef Great Mr. BENETT presented a petition from Ileytesbury, against I slavery. Mr. J. SAMITH presented a petition from Chelsea, in favour of the bill to prevent cruelty to animals. I Dlr. DENISON presecited a petition from Lainbethi, praying for i the repeal of the duty on coals. Mir. ABERCROMl BY' presented a petition from the merchants l of Edinburgh, in favour of free trade. They expressed an opinion, I in which he fully concurred,that the measures of Mfinisters had enti- tled them to general support and approbation.They prayed for a repeal of the direct taxes, and deprecated the application of anv part of the public money to the building of churches, for the advantage of I only a yart of the community. I Alr.MONCK presented a petition frompersons connected with the ! silk trade in Reading, afaiimst the imnediate execution of the Chan- ; cellor of die Exchequer s measure wvith respect to the silk duties. LordA. HAMIILTON presented a petition from the nobility gentry, and freeholders of the county of ortar, against a bill calld I t'oe Tay salmon-fishery bill, wvhich had been introduced into the l house asa private bill. He hasd waited in the hope of seeing the I bon, mt,mber hin bis qphac by whoma that bill had been intzoducedt. Mr. C. GRAINT said the gubjerit was under the consideratitsrs,of the Board of Trade, who were desirous to satisfy all parties.- Ue-wAs Inot authorized to sal anything on the part~ of the bom.ent.lsyw3som. Ithe bilIlibad -been introduced, but he wou~ld mnentien. at in * ilOn- rersation with him, that the Ponour.able gentleokan -bai8 pireiised his readiness to dielasy his bill, if the matter should be taken usp by the Board of Trtide. Sir IL FERGUSSON said a few wvords, after which the petition was ordered to lie on the table,-and to be printed. MVr. IHU IIE presented two petitions against the same bill; one from the Provo3t and Magistrates of Mlontrtise, ujider the seal of the borough ; and the other from the Coinvetner and'Deaconr, of the nine incorporated trades of Dundee. Mr.Goui.zuRx then rose; but Ali. Husxisso?e begged the right hon. gent., if it would nut be productive of inconvenience to him, to allow him to move that the report of the committee of ways and means be brought up. AMr. GOULststsese gave place, and on the motion of Mlr. Hius. Kesso x, the report was brought u WlAYS ANt MVEAN!S. Thje resolutions in respect of the sugar duties which had been pro- posed in the committee, and were now reported, were read a first and second time, and agreed to. MVr. HUSKISSON ten Tmoved the forther consideration of thle retr~t of the same committee (16th of February) upon the-titird re- so utions respecting the duties on foreign spirits and sweets :-" That towards raisneg the supply granted to his Mlajesty, the duties of ex- cise on foreign ajunts and sweets granted bir an act made in the 43d year of his late mtajestv,and ois brandy anti other spirits, granted by an act made in the 47th year of his late Majesty, which have been continuedI by several acts until the .5th day of July, 182, he furthier continued." 1'lr. H-UMlE wrishied to k-now what was to be the racte of these duties? WYasit the intention offhis M. ety' Governiment to con- tinue the duty of 10s. 6d. upon the ga on of.' spirits in England, whiile is was to be so mnuch less in Scotland and Ireland ?HBe thought that this seemed inequitable, while it had not even the re- commendation ot'operat'ing to prevent smuggling ; for ifsp dluty was to be continued in Scotland at 2s. Gd., and in England at l0s. 6dl., it was clearly imnpossible that smutggling from Scotlan.d couldi be pre. vented. Mlr. HU.SIlSSON pre_sume~d the lion,. memiber was aware that ihis resolution related only to that part of the duty- en spirits which was granted annually. T'he annual duty on brandy was 6s. 8d. ; Fintl that on rum 3s. The resolution had no operation on the annual luty on B-ritishi spirits ; thierefore the whole question as to British ipirits would remain open to any icsinwihtehn ete nan m igt wish to originate.ydsuso hchtehn ete AMr. U111UIE.-Did the resolution include the reduced ditty on rum ? le tunderstood that uponi the rum duties a reduction had takeni place of Is. lI d, per gallon. IWe did not hear-Mr. Husk-isson's reply.] Thereoltio ws henred seon tmeand agreedto. The2d esluton,tht "thesu of4s.inthe pound be raise4 withn te saceof ne earfro th 25h dy o ~larceh,18924. upon penion, ofies,andpesonl etaes n tatpart of Great Britain taild Eglati,~Vaes ad te twn f erwick-.upon-Tweed,- SILK-TRADE. Mr. H USK ISSON wishied that the. house wvould allow- the brinig- ing up the resoluttion in respect of the silk-duties., which lie liad sub- rultted in a commlittee of the whole house on the preceding evenine. Mr. BARING took the opportunity of stating, that it was tier hIs it entien to give any ,further opposition to the resolution. This de'! 'laration was no(t owing to any alteration in his own opi'nions upon :he subject ; but to this circi3nstance-that seeine what thec general ;ense of~ the htotse was, he f'elt it to be his duty rather to suppose that ie was wrong, and that they must be righit. (A lauigh.) Ile hoped. sowever, tlvst in submnitting the details whiceh tt would be necessary . :o brinsp before the house, before the measure intended to be finally idopted upon them should be proceeded wvith, the righit hon. gentle.- nan would allowv sufficient tirue for their mnatuire dhiscussion. M11r. R-USK ISSON was mutch obiliged to ilisi honourable friet,d -or the candlid manne inwic e a js spok-en. Ile could iave no wvish to hurr onte osetros t hc me-asure in ques. :ion with any greaterdge 1dsac tha. wouldi be niecessarv II ortler to givethoaiecnerd the proposed relief at thie ear- iest possible period; t was withi this view that hie wishiedI tit reo-o utton to be now brouh up n order that the bill miglit be prepar. ad and brought in as speiya inght be and lie thought the iou.geniemti hmsef, ponconstdin its provisions, would be tue amnong those tmt anxious to irive the effect. He therefore noved the order of thie day upon the report on the goods and wares customns) arts. AMr. BARIN G was aware that if these ditties were to be takeni uffi, it was importanit to proceed witht their reniission as soon as pos., .ible: but he thouglit thiat mitci difficulty would be foutid in dosIl- ng with the dTawvback to be allowed upon stock on liand. A better node miight be suggested in this respect titan thie rig,ht hion. gentle. iian seenmed to propose. Perhaps the parties woultd be better' Ratis. ied, also, if Government proceedted by degrees, so as to fiztally take :ffthe 6-u. fil. ditty, at a distant period, rather thian to remnit it at nice. Upon the suggested immediate remis-sioni, thie righit ho. ourabie gentleman inust begin with this silk-holdler; and thlen te wouldI find hiniself called uponl also by' the sihk-ntaniufatcurers, vlito miight have the large stniks (and there wvere tmarv wvhose stocks vere worth pichtaps Stt,0001t.) But hivlie the right I;on, gentleman, vould be busieti in attending to their claimis, sehiat was the smial-l htopkeeper to iio ? -Whs' was not the smnall shiopkeeper to be 'qually considered ? i1s small stock of' 5001. woiild be of as inuchi tuiportance to binsi as the SOdItidi. stock to the large nmanufactutrer - Lud the irunsieuhiate reniission of dititv of cotirse would be orf propor. tonable mioment to htintii. e uniherstood ithe hon. gentleman to tld, thiat a periedof two vears and a half at thie Iast shiouldt Le al- oweti for the Droposed experimecnt. Ir IUIM~ reall thought that the principles sehicht had bee-n aid down by, every- intelligent man connected withi tradle, intio lied pok-en to this subject, were suchi as lef't no doubt of the suund and 'onsistentitpolicy which his Majesty's Ministers were in this instance Pursuing, lie could not concur, theref'ore, with, his honouritble i-lend in considering the taleasule ini questioti a fiuere experiment.. proceeded tuponsuch soundI principles. that thiere couhd be no easotiable doubt of its success. (eruaitily. seinie uifficutlties rere likely to arise upon the mode of dealing with persons who hand Sock onhan ; ut,surtly, thiere could he no question whiether the utiesough to eremitted nt once or tby degrees. Thie general pinin o expriecednieniwasidecidedly in favour of the Slinistetg' ropsiton o tke heIII off wiithi the least delay possible. Ever,' sati connected withi the silk- trade wouldl, in that case. kuotv wh~tt do, and etmploy hiis workmen accordingly. He hoped that the ase of' the small shopkeepers wvould mieet with due attention. It nly partie-s shioild be in possessiotn of goods tincut, (for the difficulty mened to be as to the imode of' alloweing the drawbalck), lie would r-opose that they should retuirn thieirgoods on a certain da',-,to aparti- ular pla-ce ;and thienitttie excise takesaproper accouint ofthem. The 3iuntri wouild never grudgecthat proportion of ountyvwit ich it woultiI e necessary to return to individuals, to rave tltenni from distress and ain; and as no private funids could be chiarged with the expense of less returns of dtitty, they must of' course be borne by the nation. Alr. EI)IVARD'ELLICE was quite satisfied that Ihis Males. !Rtv's Mlinisters liad not been proceeding in error on this question. le was only anxious that it shiould be nascertained fromn the nnianu- ucturers, that if' justice were done to themn by this return of duty, iey wottlsl instantly set about employing thieir mnen. Sir H ENRY PARNE LL saida fe~w words that were not audible 1 thisgallery. M1r.'Alde'rman 'VOOD gave credit to his M'tajesty's Ministers mr a desire to tneet all the dlifficulties of this subject ; 1bittlhe feared iany woutld be encountered in dealing with !stock on hand ti. th This report uponi the silk duties was then broughit up;an th taolution read a se-cond time and agreed to. TITHJE COMPOSITION ACT. 1Mr. GOULBURN said,it 110w became Isis uluty tc,iniove for leave britig in a bill to amend the tithie conmposition act, wviihihhadl seni passed in the last session of Parliamietit. Hie thoughit no onie 'iso had attended to the discus.-ions on the subject, and no~ e watched iseoperation ofthe act, would deny that itwas not so perfect us not reqluire some alteration. No one, therefore, ivould be sur- nesed tht lie should take this opporttinity of' submitting to the oust the various miatters utpon whiich it seemed necessary to itrouluce somec alterations, in or4er to give to the nieasure Itimately (he trusted) complete efficacy. At the sanie time lite id hsop~ that lie should be pennitted, frons tiusie to tinse, bring forward suchi further eunendatiotis as tniglit appear to be eceessar. Last session, the bill lie hsnd proposed was inst by a arietv' of objecions ; some lionourable members diss-entinig front a provisions in past, others opposing the measure altogether. Te iese latter gentlemien it hardly seenmed necessary that hie should ad. ress any arguments on the present occasion, in faivour of a sneasure te necessity of which hiad been reco-nize,t by- Parliament. What. ter thottbts aind difficulties thiey, w1io obje&ted to parts of the bill sly,, iight have expressed, woulcl, how-ever, tleserve to be moat -riousisY and caref'ully considered. He should noun propose a vs. sty of alterations ulson the existing act ; mluany of them appa. !ntly isiinuite, but in reality of' essential imnport, and calculated u nset some of the objectionis thiatliadat different periods been started particuilar provisions of tIse act. He could not better preface tbis irt of his speech than by just stating to the house what hacl been the iode of proceeding as to the act of la.;t sesion. It was circulatc(l over teypart of' Irelanjd, in order that all whomi it concertied iniight tifeetly know its enactmsents. Tuie transmission of the copies of is act was accompanied with suchi printed expositions of its nature id effect as seemed necessary, in order to inform all persons upon toes topics, without subjectiiIg thecns to thec necessity of yoing irough that msasa of legislatiotn which the intricacy of its provisions ad inevitably itiduced. Since this act wa passed, last session, there ad been, 1,033 veEtrnes assembled in Irelai for the purpose of ap- lying the provisions in qitestion to tithe cases. In 5679 instances iecy had been acted upon in SS3I. the further consideration of thec .t hiad beeni adjourned. -hr as, therefore, every reason to sup. osic from the numiber of cases in which the act lhad bests applied to. sat both parties to the contract which it wa, to regulate wer- satis. ed with its enactments. Of 1 ,033 applications for -ospsto n er the act, advertised in thse Dublin G eCfc(. t Piwr md b lsrgypriaters, and other cas. hs rthe1-1n-ners, proprietors, lay indopication adoftheIiesh PrItp-l r.V't bon~. gent.th en enitered into a inLlcatin ofthe rishProt-state u-ut u -i--ttinof e iets togasp enormous Isr0fits, and to 'sring from thiepockets o tos onminited to tilteir etiarge the'utmiost possi'ble antount of tithes. HeI ontended, as e thad often cotitended, that if the value of the in. rest ofall the, Protestant clergy of 'the empire cobld be ascertained, would apperacre tathe tithes of the Irisli clerg , as comncpated with eircinterest, wer lower than those of any otveripart ofthe clerical Sir JOHN Nrih POR t hon. gentlemanpded to red a serieoal, hat thoughq Cashel n as certainly a diocess c-ontaining as wealthv pa- ishes as therc vere in any part Of Ireland, perliaps, it alto cortain d manythalt were verw i poor. lUr. d OU.Bea RN said, his calculatione, wete made on tbe eturn of fifiy-one parishes, taken without any iselection. excellt hat they 7vpre those w theh first acted upoin the statute. t vas~ true that many vestnies hatl adjourned the coansideration of heir aris gements under this bill, but not because they were bes re to it: the adjournnients were to wait for further explanations, nd mnany of the parishes that were at titst liostile, became subse_ uenty in favour of the measure, and acted upon its atrovisionsh shere were two oinerating puses in Ireland which reitarded the ractical operation of the bill-theis c as wee mae on the kart of the propneetors h,f grazing land, who aere uswilcing to ubject themselves to the measure; and the other was the opposition te those who acted on beualf of absentees, and held grast land, nd who wete disposed tO make ha aourned their private interestso nd who could Dot rmell be affected until the expirat on of theions eases, when the propriatoins o the land would, hider the thew ar ancement, be riable to the tithe composition. Someobjectioh bad alson ueet taken to the mode ofcoureuting the average on which the oost- wosition cls tonot tem be affe ct quite aware of aie doftheiy Which must arise in the settlement of any auchi general avcrage- It, wVould D-Ot have done to have tak-en a shorter average, for the reduction Of the value of land for the years 1820, 21, and 2'2, would have been (fl,uiJust valuation for the clergy ;the seven preceding years _a I I5t 1821) wvere therefore deeined a fairer space of time, as tI adiu anothern the two patis leaving it to tbetii every third year tO UILanoheraverave, fountled on thie preceding seven.. He now '"etopropose that it shiould be open to the parties to ~iakearrange-. saeit.s for a compomsition every sevetitli, and not every thirdl year, and t-L't'5toenabletliose who p leadto baLrgaintfor21lyears instead ot7,if ~eythoucht properw and lie wished that the arrangemcnt should be fbiined, first, on the price of comn for the previous seven years, and k1tornd, on thAe average incom-e of the incumbent during thie same period. He also wished to lpropose a modification of th'e plan of Toigat the vestries, to redUCe Lhe scaile alTeady fixed, by which the "'tilb-e of votes was civen according to the amnount of tithe paid by the individtta, whichi in some instances was found to give too greaPt a Preponderance to propertv. The Ist of November was4, ac- Curd'11Z t-0 the bil in force, the time for the new compositions to be d'ted from: he wishied the Ist of May also to be introduced, to give '6t~t to such bargains as were not completedI in the winter. He also amshd ttong a nuimber of minor arrangemcnts to introduce some alteraltion in themodeofeolltctiorn; forinstince,inthieparish of Elphin, `wherre in itome cases the proportion pro raMn was only 8d. ; and whlere 6 or 7 diiTherent persons wvere entitled to shares of the amount. At Present,~ each was obliged to have a separate collector; his inteit- non a--.. that they shud hiave the power to appoint one collector f(ri-c the whole. T~iFtrheowelre many explanatory details whichi could iCttt-be ive ina utue sageof heproceedirng; and he hoFed that whe thy dspssinatly onideed hewhole subject, they would giv saisfrtin t te rspetiv ineretsinvolved in the discussion, sadconer eae ad hrmoy ponthecontry. Hs-concluded by Soovng or eav tobrin ina bll o aendthe tithe composition act .ir. (JRATTAN thogtth rpoiinprematutre, for, as yet he was, not aware that teeiinbllwsreally in force itn a single Parish in Ireland. He Ia hsefatended and ptresided at two In-ttctings, to contsidi-r the provisions of thelast bill, witls a vier, to ,heir practical ogercation, and hie rend over the bill to the vestries, sad adjournzed the meetings to give tiime for conisideration ;btitt when theyv r&.-mwembled. noboidy seemnetl to comiprehend the natcore of the act, until the right lion. gen.lemnan's (Mr. Goulburn's) circular letter was issued to explain thle 27t(h clatuse, bitt tite rector, whio was pre. sri-it and eXecise1d authority at the meetings , and the parishioners, affer v'arious olThes. , tuld nst aree. In otie instance Elie recLor was a-1cre to take 4tulW really, if they' nominally agreed to pay 6011h.,offer- )Inc to give a secturitv that lie would not enforce the oddl 101)1. (A laugh. lie said thiat he tendered the ariangemient under tilse sanc- "ion Of the Archbitshop. On the whiole, lie thought it much better, that blefore they stirred a step fstthcr, thiei' shiould have before them oIfficial i'~frsrm 'tion respecting titeoperatioti ol thie bill of last session. Tr. HP U..N I thoutrht the proposed alterationi nugatory. Nothing would do in Ireland 'on the suhject of tithes, but the breaking tip of' the whole church establishment thiere. (Hear.) Tite estaiblished crhnrch p4pulation was in that couintry ~in the proportion of 1 to 14, ad therefore i:i hiad to pay for tite church establishm-ent of one-a ,Tate of rhings 'ehich oughit not to be piermitted to continue. Wh'y cid nolt G Overnn:ent re-move tliis etndless cause of' irritation, by en- itersons to putrchase up the tithes at once ? Bringing in one "IT! aftir another to patcch up the presetitsystemn, was to heap legis. laticon after. legislati,sn uselessly, and cotifound wlitat was alrea'dy too M.PFEIl ci,i.tdiet utitil tie proposed bill was broighit in and p'rinte'd. it w-as impossible to say with accutracy, what were, or were no sdetaik- lie therefore deprecated fighting: slitadows by srguittg :n ths enctrr 'ganner. The honourable gentlem-an (Mr. Grattan) laFd hluimnsef t',xen the best reason why tie explanatory amtendment shudbe introduced. for lie clearly sliowed that the bill, as it at PZ-c'--iexstd was not adequiately, understood. Mr. GRATIT %u and :'tr. Hvatx severally explained. L.canv was thien given to hring in 'die bill. RO)MAN CATHIOLIC CH-ARITIES. SZir IlENRY PARNELL saidl, that, in Pursuance of the 1otice lie liad kicrisc to move tor leave to bring in a bill to en-able Rmtian Catholics to puircliase anti hold lanlds fOr pious and cilantable prnttrru,e lie hiad to state, that withiin the last two ~er.a lads hadl le!'t some ilionev and lanid for charitable t:-sie.bitt the commtissioners t1r, chiaritable bequests in Ire- land f-it it thteir duty- to interfere, anid require Cite applies. i;-i ut' the lreufsi-t to tkco Other ue, teiteioofheeta MNi. as they S-14d. be-ing contrary oti lawt. lie liad. lhowever, since unlersian. ih1t tlhe 1 cirul Chancdilor had decided in favorir of the tesretrlx : arid h ail also been inthintied by the Attorney-tieneral for lercland, that tlter-e us-is io round for. supposing that Catholics stoo? in th!'I ereect ina diffhrent situation ft-tm ProtestantDissenters. (Hecar.) Inconsciiuence oft this ass,urance feriin the right hon. gentlemnan I lr. Pl'unksrtti. thiat the l'rote'.tarnt Dissenter atid the Rloman Ca- ehi-1;c st-pod in the amie situatie'tt, lie (Sir H. I'arnell) would tuot .c'l or. hisenrs. hlEP'(hlT OF SUPPLY.-ORDNANCE. Msr. RIll( IEN brou'ght tipj tite reptort tif supply, including the fnn ot- the- t irt-.'tnace_-;evcral resoltlitions were 'agreed to. 5nthe vote 1fur thle conutnissat-itt branch of the Ordnance, a con. Meration took plare b-twveen .Me. 11r t;t and Sic H. 1HARDiNGE1, ri-isertirir the crlrk-~ in thec conitin:issatriai, ttow rernoved front ithe 7reasury ii the IOridnance. It appeared ft-out Sir H1. HAIIDINGE:'s ,.-wr.that thoseclr, a!ftc-r the expirations ofttbir tirst period of' xite.were -o con:ic ordler tuie Ordnance regulations withi respect to "Ilswn e o nhilcii )t set-i-ie. `"A L.ARY O1 THlE $ECRETARYN TO TIlE ORD-NANCE. M r. I A LCHRi FT' observcil. that thec salary to titis Public officer, %ho wa5 g-enerallyv a meisuber of'tite hotise. an;d tnust be a stian of some rank amnir -Nrisunate as representitsg the Board of Ordnance, w,emntiely ttoo~ ,-ial ?XIJh0 a yusar was, lie tchoiup ht, too low a renit9er-ntoit fur the services of that oflicer. Ile did not see thvi, stis"uiid not hte put out the saute footing as the secretaries of cYc Treasury. Whien lie (Mr. ('aim-aft) was Secretary, lie enj,oy. eda 'alrvt- is ice' the present atmouint, anti lie didi not thlink it tioo 11tc." lar." and a laugh.) Ilie hioped the Gover-nutenit would take thlis matter into cotisidieration. M'sr. PEE!, said that the suiggestion, coming from a gentleman of 'le known artilitirs of tile lion. iereniber, and whlo niu,t be suipposed to be distusterest.ed. was wvorthy the consideratioti of Govermenuitt. He costid rot 'av i-ore on the 'subject. M' r. ill '31 EPrestesed a hlope, thiat if the salary was to be in. c-'a-eaed. Gover-otienlt would look at die large salaries givell to tho(se whe had liiilg or no'dting to d'o; anti liY reducingtchens, increasethe tin the vote for the. RZoyal Mlhtary Acasdemy at WVoolwich, Mn'kr. HUMI'sE iid. hr hoped thiat itt) a sItorT time thlis etstablish. mco-t woiuld be altogzethier redluced, It was us;eless to educate young mT.e for the set-vice, u itnitsou, if' justice was donie to the ce!tury, and to the officers oni haf.pay. dile Governienit couldI not glive coim. S!r HI. lIAR DINtiE said, the establishiment hiad -already been con'.idcrablu- r-educed. There were tiow- only 1i3 cadets in it ; arid !tnes u was to be given up altogether, Of whichl lit seould ntt ad. wit, -le proprieti-. lie could not tliink- that a less nuiitber could be A,.1er a few words front Mr. D. G. Git.BitsTcr, which were not auld:ble in the Z311ery. thle resolution was agreedi to. On the resolution for gruintinig thie suni of.114.521 1. for the barrack department. 3Mr. l)hlO'Esaid lie wolald oppose the grant. Tue gal. ;snt offilcer (S'ir II. Hardinge) lied, on a tot-met- occasion, said that he wo.uld be readY to support thie question of pennanent barracks on, 5-onnsitutuional grounds, lie (Mr. H-obitouse) would be ready to eri'er the Fsts with tile galdlantt oificer on that or any other subject ; ftcr tt would he- an hotiour even tu be defeated by such an antagonist. The gallanit officer haitl said, on a former occasion, that the 'rncipIt o! t1he barrack ss'site't it-as supported by the psetition of rig'pnscIf,c bossrem, hewoud condescend to look again, and see the real peti. to-of rights_not the humsorous petition,' to which, in waggery, lie hlad alluded-he wouldi find ttwhat the People Complained Of wa,, not so much the soldiers bein.- billettedi amongst them, as tIee-stence of any standilng anny at all in time of peace. They al.o coitiplain"d that the Kiing's troops were not Kept in the arr-ison towns usuallY approuri-atedi for themn. It was the being obiirced to pa'~ for a hat the King shiould haive paid our of his own n'se-ueos that our ancestors complained, wilen they Objected to tile bi'derctng of soldiers upon themi. The lion. itemnbee then Proceeded to contend, that the svstems Of permianent barracks was unconsLtiru rional. as it. 'eparaird the soldier ft-otyi the citizen, and wcent to make ri-emvr a dlkisirit lasin thec sL.-te-niere u/ornlata. knowing only the -ill Of their officers ThI'ls was, the opinion of somne of our a'blest lawyers-that Of tile able coimmtentator on our laws, Mr. jtustice 'llacksnornc. Hie also Objected to thle intendetd erection of barracki on sir6 site ot the Kn'-iw.In conclulsionf lie imoved as an am-end. That itappears to this, house, that since the conclusion of tile war in lMl,i more than 2,?M,iho1.hOl sterling hiave been expendedi iii the batrrack depar-trneat established in Greatt Britaini and Ireland,and cisuit 136.53111. arc proposed to be devo,ted to tiel same object in the ctsrrent year. -- That it appears to this house, that a part of the sum so required t' to be laid out in the construction of a Pemianent barrack on the sir of the Kin's-insews, at Chtaring.cross; and that titus, in the heart of O tfle citv and liberties Of Westminster, another niilitary station, Fseparating the soldier front the citizen, is to be added to the msanv ,zmlar establishments to be founti in various part-s of the kingdoni. "That this house cannot but view with, the utmost jelos at suspicion, the cofntinuiance- and increase of a system utterly incon. mistrent w-ith the ancient laws attd usages of Etiglatid, such as they find them expounded by all the authorities whio have treated of tile consmitittion of the cotuntry ; and moiore partictilarly by Mlr. justice Itlack,srontse also, in hiis co-nuitientanes on the laws of England, after ex,prcessly declaring thaLt the laws and cOnstitultion of these kinglomns know rno su.ch sUtat as thlat Of a perpetual staittling soldiery, itiake, Use. in a SUissequert pwsuua;re, of tile f,ollowinlg retisarkable wocrds:_ .Nothing, then, according to tile-se principles, ought to be ,-ere guarded against isa tree state than making the militarygtower, ,t,hen-.' a one is necessary to be kept onl foot, a body too tsinct ftnathe p,~,-. Like our's, therelotre, it ought only to he enlistedi if.t- a short an!d limi{.,'l tinle thEle soldiers, also, should live inter- Mixed wit:Auc people:- no separate camp-tto barracks-no inland f,rt-uteses 66~i5ad he al lotted , 'nd perhaps it ntlighit be still better, if, be dsntmissing a statedl nuitibet-. and enilisting others, at ces-ry re- niewal of therT ICrtil. a rsrC-1hatiolt could be kept upi Itetweeti the Armys and the people, and the citizeii acud the soldlier be niore inti. ma_el conneett d tog,titer.' 'I .this house partaking, therefore, thcsc just scntinients with the great continentator on the laws of their country, atid wish. ,,g to discouragFe the military yvsteni therein dlecried, will not vote a lager sum than lil,Iill. for the barrack departntent in Great Britain in the cut-rent year; and this houtse further huntbly begs leave to , that no new barrack for soldiers ought to. be erected in the se,.td'-t or in the vicinity of the ,tetropolis." Sir. H.HARDING( said, he would not enterinto the constitu- cianal question as to the erection of rDermanent barracks: he would confine himself to the necessityof their erection. It would be in tie ,eollection of many meusbert., that in the early period of the war, vt1ons were snt n from various paTtS of the country, praying to -rdi`eved fnt the burden of having soldiers billetted on them. Fs- such an evil there was ito remedy, but in the erection of permta- aent ba-rack,- The Govemiiient wese obliged to order the erection Ts la-rge barracks, particularly in the maritime counties, during that crioof the war wben this country was threatened with invasion. snce the peace- however, a great niany of those establisbmentr had Iseen reduced, and the expense was now on as low a scale , rcTnstaces would admit of. As to the barracks at Charing c,s, he dlid not know wiere the hon. meinber got his inroensation eM the subject. It did not rest with the Board of Orditance to say V,stcher barracks should be erected there or not. It might perhaps be very proper to have them there. At all events, aniy expense at- bee ding themO did not come into the estimate of the present year. Lhc 9on. g ember then contended, that the sunt voted was not too tuch fort heaerviee of'the year.WVith respect to the objection to keepirg be troons in departrnents separate from the people, he would observe, k3t before the revolutionary war there were no barracica in the i-rewohis except the Tower. The ;Guards were then bilietted jtzaa dowp amtongst the peopsle; nnd the consequence was, That a greaterderce of immorality and insubordinat-on existed arnongst them at that period than was cver known since they were lodged inbarracks. It was a singular fact, that in the years 1791,2, and 3, one of 14 of the persons convicted at thc Old Bailey were guards- men, and about that time there was not a year in whicis one of them was not executed. (Hear.) Now, lowevcr,'a corviction of any of the guardsmen for crme was very rare. In such a place as London, he contended that it would bealmost impossible to keep the soldiers from the contagion of vicious example, except they were in some degree removed from a conutantintermixturewith thepeople. A lr. HUM E supported the amendment, and observed, that if it ,were thought necessary to keep the soldiers from a constant associ- ation with the people, -e was surprised thev were not renmoved alto- gethet from the metropolis. Alr. HOBHOUSE, in explanation, observed, that he had derived his information respecting the intended erection of barracks at the King's mews, Charing-cross, from the Secretary at *Var (Lord Palmerston), to whom he had put the question in the house some short time ago, and who answered him, that such was the intention of Governnment. Sir U. BUTRGH said a few words in support of the originsl vote. The amendment was then negatived without a division, and the original resolution was apeed to. The remaining resolutions were then passed without observation. The recovery of penalties bill passed through a cormmitteet and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. lLL-TREATMENT OF CATTLE BILL. Mir. R. MARTIN moved that the house do resolve itself into a committee on this bill. Mr. HUME saw no reason why the honoiirable meniber for Gal- wa should be the exclusive protector of cattle. He (Mr. litirne) had hitnerto takenno part against the hon. member's measurer,except that of voting against them. (A laugh.) He now, however, felt it ne- cessary to say a few words on the subject. By the biU which the honourable member ha I introduced this se3sion, it was made an of- fence to overload a horse. How was it possible to ascertain what load was suited to a hosTe's stiength ? H e had seen a little pony who could carry I)is noble friend near him (Lord Nugent) with the greatest ease. (A laugh.) it would not surprise him, however, to find many a large horse who would find it difficult to do the same thing. ( A lauc.) He was willing toadmit, that the hon. member for Galway would have done good if lie had allowed his bill of last session to re- main tmaltered. Ile would stute wlhy he doubted the humanity of the hon. member. On a foirner evening, he (MIr. Humne) made a motion to prevent the torturing of men. 'Ile meant by llogging. He expectedas a matter of course that the hon member for salway I would give hini his vote; b it to his great surprise he found that that gentleman, who was so anxious to protect oxen, and,who sympathized so much with the sutfilrings of dogs and cats, did, without the slight. est remorse, consign, as far as hiis vote went, 73,000 Eng-lishmnen to the torture of thie lash. (H3 ear.) The lion. member concluded by moving Ihat tlle house sbould resolve iLself inito a committee on the bill on that day six mouths. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose to second the amend- mcnt proposrledby the huln. member for Aberdeen. The present bill appeared to hjin to be vexatious andl evers way unnecessarv. The definlition of the otVcnce irn the bill whiclh the hon. member ibr Gal- way had introduced last year was the wilful ill-treatment of horses and cattle. He understo6d, however, that the object of the present bill was to render the ill.treatment of those animals, arising fromi iniadvertence and negligence, a misdemeaiinour. There was one claluse of the bill which, in charity to the framer of the bill himself, he hoped would be witvidrawn. He alluded to that clause which authorized any individual to apprehend a person in the act of ill-treating cattle. iHfe knew, from the zeal which the hon. niember had here!ofore displaved in the cause of humanity, that not a week would elapse before ftie would be forced into some (lesperate conflict it attempting to enforce the law. (A laugh.) He remembered that the lioniourable memher had been extremely anxious to introduce the word " bull" into the bill of last vear. After a long discussion, however, the bull was ejected by a large tmajority. (Laughter.) The honourable member, however, | contri,'ed to introduce tte words *- or other cattle," and he had *been endeavoaurinig, during the last year, to persuade the magtstrates that the bull was included in that description. He supposed it was for the sante object that the lion. member had introduced the words " or other cattle" into the present bill. He (the Attorney,vGeneral) objected to havingt the bull introduced thus covertly. The hon. member should talce the bull by the h-ons, :mnd bring it in openly. (Laugitter.) AIr. XXv. SMN1 ITUI was convinced that the bill of lis lion. friend, ridiculed as it had been, had already conferred great benefit upon the commntunitv fie conceived the object of the present bill ta be good, and was therefore disposed to go into the committee upon it. illr. R. .lARTIN replied to the arguments of the speakers in Opposition to his bill. The S0)LlCOlTOR.GEqERALX supported tlteamendment. Dr. LUSH INGTON had notheard any sufficient argument urged to prevent the bill from going into the comnnittee, and there recetiving such amendments as might seenm expedient. AI r. C. 11' YNN opposed the measure for the same reasons which had led htim to oppose tite existing act of the honourable member for Galwav. Alr. rUXTON Supported the motioti. He liad asked a friend what efFect the bill of ast yeaT bad prod;aced, and the answer was, that it had put an end to half the cruelty wvhiclt formerly prevailed in the country. Mr. WVARRE said it had been stated by a right hon. gent. (M1r. Wlrynl) that the cases wlichl measures of tihis kind brought before magistrates were in general of so doubtful a clharacter, so nicely balanced, tlat it was a chance whether conviction would or woultl lOtor take place. He denied this to le thie fact. An overwhelming niajorlty ol thie cases recenitly prosecuted were of so atTocious a character, that conviction had regularly followed accusation. lie should support the notion for the bill going into a committee. Alderman BRIDGES also supported the motion. He shortly pointed out the evil effects whichi an habitual practice of tormenting animals, or secitg them tormcrted, must prodiuce on ttie mind, and illustrated his proposition by an allusion to Hogarth, whose Hero, in Txc Progress offCreflty, commences witlh tying a canister to a dog's tail, atid engls by coninmitting murder. Slir. GOULBURN opposed the umotion. The bill of last session had. it aleared, eft'ected nmuci good : but becauseit did not efrect alL tbat the liozi. member contemplatefo, he now came frward, and called or) thie hoise to tolerate a imost disproportioned punishment, by making the ofRence a misdemeanour, at the discretion of the ma- gistrate. Mr. G. BANKES expressed himself in favour ofthe bill. M r. :EIUSK6SON spoke against the motion. The house was now required to increase the punishnment for this offence, although the hon. memv.ber for Galway liad showvn that tIlis was not necessary. The lmon. member himself had stated to the house, that,genetally, wihen ht obtained a conviction, he paid the penalty himselt, the per- sons accused being mostly too poor to pay it: This, surclv, proved that the preRcttt hill was auffisiently severe. Air. COURTENAY said, the statement that a penalty, of 51. would tiot prevent bull-baiting, because persotns addicted to that practice could casily raise so small a sum, was quite fallacious. Thle penaltyo i.appliedto everyvpersonactivelvengagedinbull-baiting. The call of * Qucstion"'now became general, and the gallery was cnared for a division. lW'hile strangers were excluded, the house was counted, and therc not being forty members present, an adjourn- nllent took plaee at a (SUART ER BEa OltE TwVELVE O'CLOCK. | HOUSE OF COINDIONS, TUESDAY. AIAR&c,- Q