Common Council.
The Times, 1824-02-13T00:00:00

AU tf Co monot ci ~was held ytesteday, for thie' eiptch Of-% VAxiOty of biiinem - 2ILLINO(SGATE Aix . !sfr. Alderman TBROw,r Presentedl a Petition from WVilliam rorbes Ste ?~ t ishseleran,eomlaningofhihmhaig be&n ousted froM Isis standing, in Bi-ihngsXate MVarket, and praying for redlress The 'Worthy aldrm~tan mnover Th~at the peiition be referred to the Corn- =ittei of City Lands." .M.S. Drxo-c took that opprttunity of observing, that it weuld .beave-trY desirable thing if thecommuittee to whom it was proposed lto?ei'er this pet-ition, were instructed to tatke into consideration tile ~eflrelta?cfBl1insgasI~lrk I. Iwas aduty which the Cor- 1:oration owdato the community at large. It was quite evident that Urlewas uiitsufficicntly convenient for the sale of fish, whenk thegreat iricrease of the populiation of' Ite imetropolis was taken into con-sidcration. He therefore gave noitice, that he would at sanieluture v=n mo ve thzt it be referred to the Cormnlttce of Zity lands, to take into co-nsideration whether there ir accommodationfo~rthe saleof &ihat Billingsgate, in proportion to the increased extent of London G.od AWetmiaster. COAI. rTLADE. cAr- -SOTtTITGATSt said, that he had at the last Court laid on the taIle the repor-t'o thec Coal and Corm Comumittees, (to whom it had bee referred to inquire into the mode of' delivering coals in the' river, sad tate cau~se of the high-price ofthiat article.) and mn ved tliatd it slmnld 1be printed, tind a cope Sent to each memiber. ThI'e reor had, he believed, been perused i'ery yenerally and therefore dee Vas no necessity for him to reapitulat t e arguments he hnad made us-, of when he brought it forward. Heshould therefore miove '" tiet this Couirt do agree with the commiittee ius thie said report ; I lwna that it be referrea back to them to fill up the vacancies, beinig th-ee in number, and to-elect 12 additional deputy sea-coal meters)' MNr. RowsTn said, that wvhen aLt a former Court he seconded the %ame-ndMent orf a 'wordiv Alderm-an ( Wood), calling for the imme- dia'te UPPointment of' 12 additional meters, lie did so uniter the coniviction that it was the duty of this Court to shlow to rte public that 'they had not lost a Moment in ear- zi~-19i into effct those reconimntlnnationA, the propriety of whichi Was admitted by all parties. le did not, at that time,.OA flno tsimyirclf to the allegation that the proposed i,,creas' of imeters 'wOrld be sufficient for atraining 'ie objiect theyh: in- view.har. On the contrary, it was always hiscnvc%ththe olnt do ustceto hepublic, unless a still '-omater number of additional mneters was appoinited. In makin .reIeosrainaithrpr, Ile trusted the commlittee wo. cuIt. ben ofseranitetioson terportin ~~~~~~~ but it was n ecessary to lookr frilly- c,Maplaine on t,* .-igin of that report, It originated in a general of caals a -I! part of th e public with respect to the high pricze r.c-,'.1t-erence 'was in consequtence made to the coal and en. r7InTttc to inquire inito the causes hichiil 6ccasionied the * .Ancrd price of that niecessary article. and to repr thei opinio 4tireCorst. Now he would appealtenihiern,whetherthe report dinI t-'t all develop the causes of the high Price, It wvas stated by the vomrnittee,that in fact no excessive price did exist,but they annexed the reortr of the coal-meter in truat,iu whichi they admiitted that the ~ was igh, ad stated that !hat circumstance did not arise from 'ci -at f mtcr.,ut was the result of causes with which they were ~cn~quiinre. Nw, had the commnittee investigated those causes, theywoud hae ben atir likely to have dliscovered roine remedy earrhee~rl. t ws uearthat some diminution -in the price had takn$teesine ~'ce terraination of the war anid it would have been 1r~l~l thy huciinqired, whether the reduced rate of wagez4, the di- iat'~iliei vlnefahpping, and thie reduction ofthic price of the article ~ ~h shppin-pot, had been met Iry a commensurate reduction of puceto te c niuer'? The fact, 'however, was, either that the committee hditiveigedthose causes, or, if they had, they 1-nd neglected tisattoheCut the conclusion at which they had zrrived. It w-as stated in the report that the commnittee hail hadl before them various parties, whore inteiresta were of a COnflicting na- ture. It was dLecidedly right that the conimittee should hav'e such information bef"ore theta. But what was the u4ii made of that infor- ma.Jirion? It wa-s stated, on the one hand, by the coal-mierchants, that an increased number of coal-meters was necessary; and, on tire 'other, the most intelligenit of the meters declared thiere was no neces- sity forz qny such increase. They- declared, moreover, that they were capable of metering out an increase of twenty-five per- cent, on the quantity of coals now metered ; but they na- turally enough resisted an increase of the number of nmeters, b-cause such a Measure would lessen their emoluments. In his opinion, the neccessit' of increasing the numnber of meters miutt he dcear to every man who conisidered the subject. The public atten- tio 'was now ver~ muhdrce t hsqetion, and to the pro- ceedings in. that Gourt. The public very well knew that the emolu- zerits connected withi the situation of Meter formed part of the pat- ,tronave of the Court and a feeling 'did exist, a suspicion was enter- tzinea out of doors, that the conduct of the Court was controlled by ;thr&rreof privrateinicre_sr. Hehoped, however, that thei.rvote would giv~e afiat contradicdion tothatidea. The coal-trade oughtto beplaced ,on the sm-me footing as that on which the corn-trade stood. It should Ue fixed -in the samie situation as that in whtich Goverinment placed ,every trade over which they had a control. No person found any diull- 'culit in procuring a lanid-waiter at the Customn-house when hie want- d uhogtto be the case with respect to coal-meters. VCIII -iwd ut neargument against increasing the numnber of metes, nd e tough itredcte nocredit on) those who advanced it.Thy sid tht ny nceas o te number of Meters would dnseas th emlueni ofthoe ~honow held the situationi. He knewtha th siuaton as ne f sme,thougch not of very great cesoriibiit. le wuld tereore gve them a~ fair salary. He w'old ot edue tem o 2s. r28. aweek ; but thefact was, that a-t preset tey got a sum exceeding 2801. per annum. (M ear.) He as- wecee nothiing imore than liewas prepared to prove. The coal and corn. ,committee might distinguish the meters into senior anid junior classes; 7but taking thecaggregate,they each received 2301.a-vear. By referring to 'rhesiocuiments befoie tlierm,it appeared,tbiat fromn 1800 to 1810,the me. 'tena received 1801. or 2001. a-year., and at that period provisions were Z0, 40, or 50 per cent. dearer than they were at present. It would be- perhaits unnecessary for him to state, as it must he notorious to er-cxy member of thte Court, that other ad id ying abuses existed in ttie coal-tmade. It was9 perfectly well known that some individuals 'were, at the samne momient, freighiters of coal-shiips and factors, whilst others were freighters and coal-mnerchants. TIhe coal and corn ceennit tee mnust have been perfectly aware, that individuals thus %=ding in the situavjon oifbuyer anid seller, were in the habit of --king fictitious arlA nominal sales, by whbich tIre Market price of co= was influenced to thie prejudice of the public. This should have oeen stated as one of the miany cause-, that kecpt up the price of coals. There was another abuse to which 'their attention ought to have been ilirectedeL There were 12 or 13 d1ifilerent sorts of lV'all's-end coaLs, varyinig in quality from 10 tog 10 cent., but in tthe meter's ticket the quality was not specified. Thecoals were merely entered as "11'Wall's-end." In consequence, -any dealer who was disposed to rake an unjust advanitage of a con- sumer(and there were such dishonest men in all trades), miight sell 'coals of the lowest quality, and obia-n for them thie price that ~ouight to be given only for the highest. Trhe report ditli not suggest any remedy foe thesec abuses-it merely statedI tlat, if 12 additional vsctcrs were appointed, that increas'e would meet the object < some of the meinorialists. Nowv he imust say, that those memo- rialists were not in anv particular way before the Court, and the obetof thte C.ommittee should hnave been to mieet the neaessi- 1?iT tepbi.He should now move, a-s an amendment, a se- risO eounions, all the facts of which were takten from thie re- pori. (For the resolutions, which embraced all the topics containedl in die worthy, gentlemnan'stspeech, see advertisenient.) Msi. lU iRcos.iBE: begged leave to call the attention of the Court -to som-e'rirs of the report to whichi the hon. mover had not referred. The cos~-rnetrs ought to hiave fair play, anid, in justice to tdiem, 'that poriion of thec report ought to have been readi which related to .their labouirs. The worthy memnber then contended that there was, 2sufficient nujriber of rmeters to discharge all the coals nec,~ssary for the city of Lonidoni, if thtose who purchased themi wouldI send downi craft to receive themi at a proper tinie ; and referred to a number of calculations in proof of hlis position. B%v the act of Par- liamient it -was dtirected that coals sliouldlonlybe boght between the hours of twelve and two. The fact was, th Iat none were sold ulntil about a quarter before two, when the noininal sales were made; and almost t-he whole of the coals were purchased privately aftir two o'clck. The price was thus enhunced by the bad sysitem of the market, which ought not to be countenanced. Insintuations hadl meen thrown out ag-ainst the present meters ; but it appearedl fromn -the examination before the committee, that the charge was meet un- jatad unfounded. They diseharged their (luty honestly and iar';and he believed there were not I118 meni in the metropolis rrore rel-Tected. 11r. JsA.ris said the question was simply between the public anti the presen t col-mecters ; and though the coal-meters now appointed felt it difficult to0 exPress their sentinients, they hiad found a va-rm advocate in that court, who had stated every thing that could be s~aid for themi. A great attemnpt had been made to mtystify this simple matter. The report had niot informed theni to what the high, 'rceof coals wats to be attributed. WVhether it was the fault of the Owmers of mines, of the shippers of coals, or of the coal-meters, did not appeaar. It was asked why they were not niore explicit? N'owv it Ought to be recollected, that they had very limited powers. They roulal not rail a gentleman from the North -to give evidence. Te'e 'were obliged, therefore, to receive the evidence of persona in the nvrghbourhood, whos were necessarily interested in one or other view of the case. The gentleman who mioved the amnendment said, "There is a plan by which we may exctricate ourselves....appoint a greater numnber of meters." Ile said so, too. 'Who would bear the expenise ? Not the public, who could not be dainnitiei, 'but the xneters, whose emoluments would be lessened. It was a fact, that 'whenever there was a large arrival of coals, the price was raised in- stcad of being lowereetL No gcnileman in that Court could point ,crat a specific remnedi'. Theretore, he isaid, try the experiment pro- gt~.PLn an additional number ofimeters. eONe said, the wyorthy gentleman who had Just ad- gdrcssed thens observed, th-at an attempt had been made to mzystify a very simple matter. Stitch was the fact; but that attempt was made by the mover of tire amendmient. He dar.ied that the reduction1 in 'tireprice of Prlovisions had been so great as was stated ; and when the worthy gentleman spoke of the decreased value of shipping, he showed that he knew nothing about th-e matter, for the value ofthatb ,peeof property had been greatly advanced by thg! shipping act. j.'be,15WorthY geatieman asserted that the coal-meter received fioa2801 to. ilOL a year. He must however, remind hMm 'thzt at the period of th ihs eI-very ever known, die su received was only two-thirds Of What he mentioned. He 4~g5e f-rom the average YearLv,,'.4 -.,. D-i ,.o c amue inrA 0 triatA tlse Prent prce was hot highi; the grouhdwork, therefore, of tlis C~ fled. If it could be sahown that the price ot coals was high, andl thar hih 'es was owing to an insufficient n umaber of tees, then let an ostital number be bappointed; but he.cntend- eddiatf t. bc ricle Of coals o)uld be reduced, it was not by Aug- . thes numberof meters that it could lGe done. Hehad no ection, however, to go the length of the report, and agree to tlre 3tprnttnet o twlve Le atbe tried whether or nrot these -t;crJt b he sufient ; aeond if in bso me tim e a still greater nu m- .. should be fnd e then let. more he appeointed. ie gatZ=d thait the msre seste by the aofendment would not- pr?'. the deir efdam ae had for some rie past considered with pain tae nc ed consu sptiohreo coals, for the time would cotne iwhen it would be productive of treat misery to the country. L-w kedtb5t there were coals enough tbr 500 or 60l0 yearS; bUt, sood God! was the world to last no longer? (Great laughter.) He sd tat it. was not with thle meters thetat th cause of thed high .,*prce of'coald (if it eigtted) rested. It was well knower that ,Oais brightbe. carfiedfrpot tire pis month to. lamburgh ,ithd less expens than to, Lobdon. He ws o indispose _10 lesato the Wuse othcmuny, end agree tomanincrease of =ttm t the extent recommended ly, the :report ; the additional A-veto be employved aLs extra or sq~upenueratrxfe, whenever thcer :'ea *ccxmion for 'tleir 5ervices. No rcjulatiorl of this Court coul * omtpe. the dialer to refrain fronx cnbanping the p ire of coals by. gyns~ss llapor'cr toorg a tht~wsas.a demandfoatthem ; j~ ,toi~aglu inrIt otrke thr'culd hsve the-eflet-of lower ursyaetbthcis, or o theParlat heatri walVis be cod IIr. tVxitLd4eld hia &Mend'g X olations froarnthe shasge oa cmys?ifidtion" brought aga9lst-them.by the gentlenmats opposite; The Wirkah up mnost-ably, most-.blearly, and most logically.' The atrnment of. tbe 'wortl2 bmen2ber (Mr. Dixon) was most.incon- sistein, for he had argued that .the present'number of meters was asffsaoent; hud yet he votsd uoz an addition of ityve. Fiftwena yeats ago, when the conumptiond of coals in toe dty of lve.dor Feas only 900,000 chaildrons, 110 eters were appointed; if, therefore, 11 were sufficie4t nowv, then the consumption was 1,S00,000 chal- tlron's those 110 must have been much more than sufficient tlhen. The (ourt hadl nothlng to do witi the conflicting interest8 of the ship.owners on the one side, or of Ihe coal-meters on the otber it was their duty to stttend to the interest of tlepubllc. Itseemed tobeagreed on all hands that some atldition io the present number of mneters was necessary ;the dllydifference W.es astothe extent of thatadditiorn. H e wah of opinion thiat the numnber.suggested by the amendment was necessary, and therefore he would stapport ihe amendment. Mr. Aldesman LJUCAS siid, that for the last 20.years, the increase of meters had been only 12 per cent., whilst the increase in the im- portation of coals had been 36l per cent.; therefore the increase of the one had.not been proportionate wvith that of the other. He contended that the present number of meters was insufficient, owing to the un- certainty that attended the arrivsl of the ships. Looling at it as a pnblic measure, he thought it better that the meter shiould wait for the ship, tlitan the ship fur the meter. He wolull, however, recomnmend the adoptlion of a middle course, to be regulated bv the proportion before stated, and try what eet that woild fhave; with which view he would piopose the alteration of the 40 to 30; but he would sooner vote for 40 than for 12. Air. Alderman IVOOD tbodght the Court ought not to fetter itself in point of nmiber. If they ditl, the House of Commons wouldl certainly take ;t up. (A laugh.) Gentlemen smiled at the mention of the Iouse of Coommons, but they ought to recollect that upon a late occasion that house had proved too many for them, notwith- standing all thetr remonstranceaz aad their strong measures,&c. It had s%hownthiemithat they c,u-idsot alway,sdo justas they pleas-ed. -le thloiught ithat the crade ought not to be shackled, as it would be by an insuffiC fllunumber of m'eters. With respect to the incorneof the ee,, S~io 810t did not exceed 1101., and last year one junior re- atised upwards of 3001. He did not think there could be any great hardship Ini reducing it to 201)1. Tihe worthy alderuiian after some further remarks, in the course Of which tle mentioned that he had a petition pr'pared, which he viould as-k the C;ourt to agree to present to Parliament, prsying for a repeal of the duty of 9s. 4d. on coals eatering the port of LSondon, concluded by saying he would suppert the amendment. The LOnD AAY0ol,,althoughhe didnot commonly enter into the Siscuissiors of this Court, a privilege, however, of which his situn- lion by no means deprived him, would state one or two facts for their consideration. Notwithstanding a reduction of ls. 6d. at the pit's mouth in Newcastle, and that a var duty of 3s. 2d. had been discontinued, yet in six years the price of coals had advanced 6s. gerchal.lron. Witen this subject was brought under his notice in December last, he caused a return to be madie to him of the number of ships in the river laden with coals, when there appeared to be 350, oF whici 200 had been in fbr eight days, and the public were then plyig 6s. per chaldron more than they paid at present-a re- ducti n which had taken place owing to the subject being brought utnder discussiori. It was clear, therefore that 6si ner chaldron had been taken out of the pockets of the public for the last six years, since that reduction could take place now without any cause. Mr. IIANSAItD then rose in support of the amendment, but the cries of " Question" compelled him to sit down. MVlr. SOUTTHGATE reminded the Court of the glut of corn ' hich a few years ago caused an additional numlber of corn-meters to be ap- pointed, in consequence of which that situation had now become of little value. He had not overlooked the fact of non-reduction in the price of Sunderland coals; the answer to his inquiries upon that subject ;vas, that they came to market in a superior state. He de- fended the commlittee from the hard knocks which liad been dealt out to them so liberally; they had devoted their best attention to the subject. the question was ther put by the CoatssoNa SERrEANT ; when the amended resolutions were carried without a division, and ordered to be printed in the usual daLily papers. TIIE DUTY ON COALS. Alr. Alderman WVooD moved a resolution recommending a peti- tion to Parliament, praying for a repeal of the duty of 9s. 4d. per chaldron on coals entering the port of London, vhich resolution be- ing agreed to without opposition, and a petition founded upon it read, he moved the adoption of that petition by the Court. MIr. Alderman IIEvOaTE suggested that the petition ouglit to go the length of admitting inland coals into the London market. lilt. Alderman WOOn said, that the rcpeal of the duty would have that effect. r. Alderman HEYGATE denied that it would. After a few words from MIr. Alderman LUCAS and Dlr. DixoN, the petition was agreed to. 1VEST INDIA DOCK COMPANY. lUr. Dixox asked the Remembrancer whether or,not there had been any steps taken in the itouse of Cornmons, towards the renewal | or extension.of the West India Dock Company? IThe Renienibrancer said, there had not. - eYoMA4,iA)_ CoLwQ.