House Of Commons, Thursda...
The Times, 1824-05-07T00:00:00

Mr. LA WLEY prcscntcd`apetition from certain persons, whose names were subscribed to it, praying for leave to bring in a bill to light the town of Birmningham with gas. Mlr. BIRIGHT objected to the prayer of the petition, and com. plained in very strong terms of the attempts which were inaking at this period of the session to bring in private bills, in contravention of the standing orders of the house. -M1r. HOLME SUMNER gave a plcdge, that if hIe were in the house during the next session of Parliament, the standing orders should not be dispensed with, except in cases of urgent and unde- niable emergency. Illr. ELLICE, IMr. HusXisrso, General GASCOY;E, and se- veral other members, complained of the slight grounds on which the standing orders of the house were at present dispensed with, and suggested that some regulation shoald be made to prevent a recur- rence of the evil. iMr. LAWLEY, in consequence of what had fallen from hon. members, begged leave to withdraw the petition. MIr. BRIG UT gave notice, that he would on an early occasion bring forward a resolution, declarator of the opinion of the house upon this subject. Mr. Alderainn WOOD presented a petition from the Watermen's Cempany against the bill for constructing a tunnel-under the Thames at Rotherhithe. Sir JOHN NE:WPORT moved the second reading of the Royal Irish Mining Compsnv bill. Mr. HUSKISSON said, tbat in the orders for the present day there were four bills for incorporating private companies in Ireland, namely, the Annuity Company Bill, the Dublin Equitable lo.n So. ciety Bll,the Bogs Drainage Company, andthe bill at present before [the house. He complained of the mode now adopted for icolponrat ing companies, as being an infringement on the prerogative of the Crown, and contrary to the ancient practice of the law. Companies wereformerly incorporated by charter from the Crown, granted up. on a prairion made ta it, and investigated by the Privy Coon- cil. Thlere were only two companies in England incorporated by Parliament on the terms in which it was now attenmpted to incorporate these comparis in Ireland. In England all the members of cormpanies were liable to the bankrupt laws for transactions into which they entered as memnbers of compa. nica; whereas in the bills now before the house, it wvas intend. ed to render then. liable only to the amount of their subscription. The trte way of dealing with these companies, woould be to tell tbemn that the power given to them by the house would be limited, as in England, to the power of suing and being rued by some officer of their own. Sir JOt1i N NE WPORT wished this bill to be dealt vwith oni its own merits. Mlr. ELLIJlCE suggested that the consideration of it should be postponed to another period, in order to give the partics to it timne to consider how they could best obviate the objections made to it bv the right hon. President of the Board of Trade. After a few wFords from Mlr. DAwsoxr, Sir JoQI{ NE1 wrOavr agreed to the postconement of the measure. Mlr. J. SMI rh presented a petition from the " Australian" Company, praying for incorporation. The object of that comipany was the cultivation of waste lands in New South WVales. General GASCOYNE thought this petition open to the samc objection taken to these already presented. .lIr. HUSKISSON said, that if any exception could be made, the present petitioners would be entitled to the benefit of it, as be- ing a benevolent, ratber than a trading company. The petition could be read and referred to the comnmittee; but he agreed with the gallant general, that the objection did lie; and he doubted whether the incorporation applied 'ter inust not come from the Crown, in. stead of t e House of Commons. Mr. J. SMITH looked for great advantages to the cultivation of wool in New South Wales. There was no such wool on earth as the wool of that country. Sir I. COFFIN thought that the application must be addressed to the King in council. IUr. Alderman HEYGATE presented a petition from the ar. mourers and braziers' company, against St, Catherine's dock bill. xCeisE LICEic NCE BS. Air. EGERTON p resented a petition from the licensed victual- lera of Stockton, against the duty on exdse licences; Mr. FoRREs- TER presented a petition front Wenlock to the sameeffeict; Mr. Goocie, a similar petition from a parish in Suffolk; Mr. AlILLS, a snimilar petition from VVarringr; Mr. PoRTHsAN, a similar petition fromz MWentworth. NEOI0 SLAYERY, Mllr. RUSS&:LLr presented-a petition from Sltash, and Mfr. Goocur, two petieiont from pArish6s in Suffolk, praying tbr the abo- lition of slavery in the West Indies MVlr. WVALLACE presented a petition from innkeepers at Wey. mouth against the beer laws; I'dr. Goocu, a petition from inn. keepers in Suffolk to the same effect; also a petition from Anthony Collins, Esq, conmplaining of the state of the poor laws; also a pe- tition from the butchers of Bury, in favour of the hides and skins biUl; also a petition fromtWoodbridge, against the repeal of the duty on wool; also a petition from a parish in Suffolk, against the foreign bonded wheat bill. Mlr. M51ANSFIELD presented a petition from the carriers of Leicester, against the hides and skins bilL Mr. DA WSON presented a petition from Loondoderry, against the repeal of the bounty on low linens. Sir A. HOQPE presented a petition from Linlitlhgow, for an equa- lization of the duity on Scotch and lrish srpirits. _'87r H.BI3$G SON presented a peisrioss from the brewers of F'ife, against the duties on strong beer. Sir W. GUISE presented a petition from Clifton, for a repeal of the assessed taxes. Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the " Separatists" of Ireland (resident at Portarlington), praying to be relieved from the obgation of taking oaths. Mlr. HUMDE said, that in the case of the Quakers, there had been only one prosecuition for perjury on breach of affirmation in the last 100 years, although they were subject to all the ordinary penalties for perjury. Why should not Parliament, therefore, follow the ex- ample of the United States,and allow an equal privilege to aU the re- ligious classes in the taking and accepting of oaths ? Sir J. NEWPORT was in favour of extending the same indul- gence to tne conscientious scruples of all religious sects. Mr. CANNING expressed the highest respect for many of the names attsiclhed to the petition; but he wa3 at a loss to conceive how they could atachs any consideration to the Prayer of it, unless the house was prepared to say that every man who nmight f'eel objections to taking an oatht should be at liberty to refuse it.. Ie did not wish to argue the question at present, but le could not conceire how any liatction could be taken in favour of the petitioners which would not eually aplicb to any other parties choosing to decline an oath. RUSSELL was in favotxr of a general measure of relief n respect to oaths, and admired the bold example see tbem in the ow of the United States. At the same time he confessed that he as not sufficiently acqYinted with that law, nor did he know *nough as to thteexperience possessed by the United States respect- ng this particuls portion of it, to warrant hins in any attempt to mitate it. Mlr. S. RICE thought that it was a strange partiality in the law o be so unbending ia regard to "the oaths tken by British sub- ects, all memborsof one Christian community when it made provi- ion tfio the conseiences of Hindoos and Mahomerans, ant allowed hem to take oltbs ii their'own forrps. Ilr. J. W[4LTAfS said, that it *as, a flgraat iu nsisn5y- he lad almost said a deformity-in the law. that whble it- adsitted the affirmations of Quakers in dvil Stits it rejected them in eri minal prosecutions. fle pledqed himself to bring lbrward a bill 1* tbe next Sessions, to make their affirmations available in either case. Alr. CORBETT presented a petition fronithe breweri of Shrews. burv, against any alteration in the beec duties. l0rd BELGRAVE supporte -the-petition, and hoped that mere time would be given in Pressing on the measure of the. right hon. gentteman opposite. The CHANCELLOR of the .EXC{lEQUBR coul4 jQt pled&e himaelf, dtler all that had paited, io abstain from ppresszr on hbs bill to-morrow evening, unlessit cani on unreasonably late.,! AMr. STANLEY presented apetitionifrom the brewetsoifLa'Incn. shire; lr. iA1UNDY presented a similar petition from etc'lbieWeri rnd naltsters ofAshbotrrn,in Dbrbyabire; MY. DOWoWbSWE:L we. serted.similar petition from Tewkesbury; Mr. L1TTLEftT6Xpte- sented a similar petition from Birnin hm; Alr. COaaEETT pre- sentea a pefution trom the tanners ani leathermen of Shreiisbury. in favortr of the hides and skins bilL . lIord ENNISMlORE presented a petition from the sheriff and landedt poprietors of the county of Cork, against the. ripeal of the lien bounties, which was supported by lMr. C. HUTCHINISON, Mr. L)Exvys BnoivvE, stir. Doslreyrc Bnow1rsi, ColonelBAr- WELL, and Mr. BEOHEIt. lr. LITTLETON presented a petition from the brewers of Bur- ton-upon-Trent, against the beer duties bill. Mr. BYNG presented a petition from the vestrymen of St. Ann's, Limehouse, rayingfor a rept-1 of the window.-.ax. Al r. C. P]LgAM presented a petition from 08westry; against the beer duties bill. lzr. HlUME presented a petition from the merchants,shipt.o*neis, rnd traders of Aberdeen, in favour of the oil gas bill. Lord BELGRAVE presented a petition from the brewers of Chester, againist the beer duties bilL Air. GOULBURN presented a petition from the silk-weavers of Dublin, against the sil bill. 5Mr. H. T WISS presented a petition from certain land-owners of Glocestershire, against the game bill. Sir M;. W. RIULEY presented a petition from the manufacturers and tradersofNewcastle.upon.Tyne, against thc beer duties bill; and asimilar petition fiom Gateshead. FRENCH SHIPS AT RIO JANEIRO. AMr. CANNING said, that in answering a question put to him by the nenourable member for Knaresborough on a former day, respecting the alarm occasioned by the reports of a French naval force having arrived at Rio Janeiro, he (ilr. Canning) lhad-stated, that he was sairsfied that those reports vpere wholly without founda- tion; and he ventured to add, that he did not doubt a very few days would enable him to give a more accurate account of the circum- stances which had occasioned them, as well as more satisfactorily to contradict theim fie had now to inform the house, that he had received from the French Govemrnment a communication on the subject, in which every ship which had been at the Brazils was fully accounted for, and their respective destina- tions explained, which were totally diferent from those assigned to them by the reports. The French force at Rio Janeiro consisted of two instead of eight frigates; and of those two, one was now on its way home. The British naval force there, which was stationed not from any apprehensions which the Government entertained, but for the necessarg protection of our commerce in those seas, consisted of two line-of-battle ships. He would take this opportunity also of stating, that there was at this niomeat no foreign station where the force of this country did not out-number that of every other Power in the world. (Hear.) MIr. CA LCRAFT asked the honourable. member for Norfolk, whether it was his intention to bring on the motion of which he had given notice respecting, the salt duties, this evening. AIr WODEHOt USE suggested that the honourable member had better applv his question to the honourable member for Aberdeen, as it depenaed wholly on the lengtlh to which the debate orn his mo- tion might extend. Air. CAL RAFT thought the subject of so much importance, that he trusted the honourable member would not deem him want. ig in courtesy, if he opposed its being brought on at a very late hour of the evening. IRISH CHURCH ESTABLISHIMENT. Alr. lUAI E, in rising to submit a motion respecting the church establishmient of Ireland, felt very sensibly that there were many gentlemen by whom the subject might have been introduced to the house with more ability than he coulR hope for. He was aware, too, that the opinions he entertained on this subject, and which he had again and again expressed to the house, wenit much farther tllan he could expect the house and the country to accompany him. For this reason he should have been glad that soirie member of more moderate opinions (and who would, therefore, be snore likely to succeed) had undertaken the task which he (Mr. ffume) had 'now tO discharge; but he had found hon. gentlemen no reluctant to take it upon themselves, that he was compelled, however reluctantly; to bespeak the indulgence of the liouse. He feared, that in order to makd himself intelligible, he should be compelled to draw largely on their patience;. hut he would promise them not to occupy one ma- ment more than seemed to him necessary to lay the subject fairly and properly before them,. ne was satisfied that the cdurch ests. blishment of Ireland had long exercised a more fatal and extensive influence oni-he could not call it the prosperity-but upon the con- dition of that country, than most persons were aware of. He had not spared any pains in his endeavours to procure such informa- tion as was necessary to the discussion of this subject. He had in- spected all the public documents to which he had procured access, and he hail apoied tbr local information to those sou-_= whence it was most likely to be obtained; but after the labour of four years, he was sorry to say, that in respect to the latter he had been ver unsuccessful In obtaining such facts as he most wished to. lay before the house. lie had received one common answer, from: which it appeared that no general rule had been observed as to the preservation of documents, and consequently tihc information lie sought was not to be obtaineed. Hlc trusted, however, that he should be ablc to offer to thc house such considesations, that few if any persons could be found to refuse their assent to the proposition he should submit. In the course of last sessio hlie had propesed motions which had been rejected. The experi- ence he gained on those occasions, although it hal not changed his owu opinions, had at least taught him se much defer- ence to those of the house, as to induce him to moderate his own views, in tie hope of doing some good, if not all that he could have wislied. No man who had attended to the history of Ireland could doubt the propriety of some alteration in thie state of that cou3ntrv. He believed tb]at there was not at this time any people on the face of the earth in so lamentable a condition as those of Ireland under the British Government. In lonner times, this state of thirgs might have been accounted for, because Ireland was then looked upon as a colonv, and bo governed. The systemr might5then be expedient; but ivhen we looked hack for 25 ears, and recollected the promuises which at the period of the irnion were held out to Ireland, that its condition should be ameliorated, and then looked to its present state in every department of the go- vernment, wlether of tie churcb, the law, or any other, we m1ust confess that this was not the change whbich had been promised themi, and that it was far fiom an armelioration of their condition. In consi- diering the causes which had led to this state of affairs, it must be re- mermbered that they were sot one, nor two nor three, but that thev were fmany, and that tIcy still operated to Leep it up. An honoui- able friendof his(Ir. WV. L. Alaberly) hiad, a few nights ago, pointed out one means by wbich the predominant evils nmight be lessened; but although lie agreed with him as to tibe important alter- ation which the introduction of capital into Ireland must occasion, yet he could not conceal frorsm himself that such a in.--- ,tmen wbo were natli,er o .wdho bya .I riAti Pe od tores11enhe aad become citiresis, were' comnpetent tbfll everj Offic- iT the stateflbr which t heir talentsandcharacteto qualifired.t e i and no mn was ref preset-d Dn' thegigtaid'of' hiu re.ious fq0niS, Whatw the result of a ngs? :sit-. Ins M Jlajesty'a xlntersthink that imn talent,- rasnh Ihrcwdhsu, and abilitv in matia4ititatffilrs, the peopleof the United States wee interior to Ihrel coitber bof Spiin,hofu p rtugA,,or of lte, y? Wat hibecOuntry eidtba not wI3h'to tr,keiny-cornPaZsson. An inS~ilaeslCha l,ttely.-feim under hiwoul . weture then a near wath a c him fotr suiporteouad benht dappointedr o avingeithrot cuet.6c ari. had Vien infblt to; ill it, beAuse he was v 11-lnltrl Citholk0lc'Th-~ coii. sequence wsho that hesad. his farthinYg d icntartiedsaeifn the aud in want. This, If it ee olitae. instanwe, would the-` t esit was the !ae thegr u t IrelAc , w h. pursed with st toreli-ihe ysteins wern the arent sust esiontf theF Ruica, c.rus act, the intducto o,ra asnary law,, sd the insuirerwion act; anfd et tould askint alif tbe . ought r to paffered to cont io Irland ont- ever miglft be the opinionsn of our ancestors inc tdil very difnh ferenti fom thogt in -uich we lived;;, antl 'Whet athie- were driven;fo our too h theen system Alndcoud atnY maDrMe to siuc for the irpt onofseverermeasuresvb,therviof ar.d ro- citywwhichcbs adesctwriced prevote the thelin predominated it did not follow-bat thoB measures should be ctl tbai div us c o after tpr e fceairn fbr themh a ne aleiin had abri shier putting an tknd to t hent 4 andl measures6tiyo could soebenop t tad it aS the prcscnfo tho circumstance -co be,mre favougtable toAq bexpe- intent ofaitbtiontgof sy'tem. esd themaxim that every-man's house was brs castle crcheproter ama nuit stmkeitancjtle be- fore be cou'l gssfelw tlve ini.N an in tnhe south of Ireland could -goto bed with more'security thanbhecouldin3abesiegedplace; he mus,t hbein hourly peril ofbis life, and it could'not b e dxpetedit men would venture their persons and their fortunes to a country whete the stodin mmnent danger ofhbavminftheir tbroatsrcuL Hlehad aady t.oe thurc t ? this state of things di'e not arise fm? the natura disposition of the'ab pe diWhy, then, ofuld th Govetrte nt hesi- hateato adopt If the sytem-which was pursued with respect to rai gious apnionsti etolednt bcountries France, Russia, appEei*. -thb Ne- therandslu oer quesaiony, acred Wurte_bFrg were is anfyrktiy to- lerac estatis.he, ifwe to fear to Place the PeoPle of Ireland on tHe samigfooting h a sthose nations-thought fit to place al-their inba- bitanirts withet dirtiction ?o At least, was this eot a reasovable groute for inquiry into the prBent system? Annd eould any ian who sincerely wished for- the imupravlent of tselad coullist the motion he was about to m4e.? ys ut he should,be told there were obstacles which revented the compliance with the meaure he suggetted. He h hould hhantd at theliinv's oronation oath preclud- ed him-from permitting any alteration in the established religion. .ie lhould-be sorry indeed to beliCir, that because the Ring had takn iian bath, no measures could he adopted w2ich was evi- detoly -for the benefit of tls state,, althou it happened to be in opposition to that oath. He shofld bi told, moreover, the presinst holders of the church property had a right to elno it as their own Personal property, and thate they could net be deprved of it He should like to be ansiered oneplain question. Who was meant by the Churoh? Vas it the clergy, or the comn oitym? Wihen we spoke ofrtharmy, we did-notIean the officers, buvthe whole mi- litary cerarounity. If the same interpretation (and he did notknow anyoter that could bepput upon it w shouldbe applie to theurch, then ths other question oc fred3For what object is any particular chaurch established, if not for the benefit of the whole comunity ? Hve might have-shwe had-eis own particular opinions on this sub- ject; ifit were, in his powet to direct, he would have the whole of the relfvious systemn of -Great Britain tipon the same foot- ing as that of the United Siatci; but although this could not perhaps be effected, yet such a system might be aAopted as shbould. suit the wislits of the whole people. I a nwta h religio of the country had changed as the powers of the chur a wlled ; there was, thelfore, no reaso ns why the - sme ad pt should not be given to the Roman Cathalic religion asdure*a been given ; and if the pre-sent establishment was fui o to be beneficial to Ireland, surely that was reabon enough why it should not be continued. The name of ring byilliam wras con- atily apealed to in reference to the Government of Ireland; t he belieled that if a little maore time had elapsed, relandwould have been pasced on the same tooting as Scotland) as appared fromict an un gibUed proclamation, which the capitulation of Limerick pre- veted fom being published. In these times, w hen we were- returning to sound princplesin ommdoerce, why should we. not also return to sound principles of legislation, and givesto, lreland tranquilty and sreurity, and let them i h ae inethose commercial advantages which we were diffusing to all quarters o3 the-lobe. We were called upon to do this as Christians, and by tfoe at tiority of that swcrnd. Book, o te of the principles inculcted by which was to do as we would be done by. h-change which the church of Ireland demanded wold come by some meansv; there was a point beyond wrhich it was-not given to humsan nature to endure; and much as he should regret to see that change brought about by vio- lence, yet this wopo rd arrive- it' it were not prevente32 by more onei- latory measures. iha increase which had takeri place in the po- pulation of Ireland (ran whetich, in the time of Bishop Boultet, bad been as four Catholics to one.Protestants had gdne on ilt?wreasing, although it had had n6 assistance. Wias this, then, not a proof tht oursue the present system was to war against is ture? Was theis not a sufficient grouind for inquiry ? The. rotes- tamt establishment, protected as it was bv all the advanhages ot wealth and power, seeryed to consist of 1,29 benefices, as apteario by the last returns. By the returns in Cthe Clerical Guide," the nuibers appeared -to be 4 archbishops, and 18 bishops 33 deans, t8hdignitaries, 178 prebeads, 52 vicara chomral, 107 ruanl dait, and 512 nunor canons &c. Here was a statf (a laugh) for so small an army. The pwpwLation of Ireland consisted of seven mnillions, otie million of which was Protestant, half of that number being dissen - ters, and the other six snilhioris Catholic. It would be remembered that Adam Smnith said, " if you would hiave a clergy, ide and useless, pay them wtf; if you would have themi- active andi usefuil,t pay themr wha it is tiecessary, and no more." Ac- cording to the best calculation which coul be imade, tievalue of chrc propheirlilty in,elstd was-estimated at 3,200,0001ir This being the ase, it wasimponrtant to as'certain what proportion the membe ofr thischurchborseq tothe Catholics. Wameeld stated, that in 1733rs tte proportion of Prtestants to. Catholics b whoaterfoed was as one ntaifnur;t theiprentemunewhoit wasasonertoa undrede . (Hear. ) Ine Imane ofCatherecwas not.ha singlePreaotitant ftimily iii a onde- ztaa of thend6rgymen ofthat rtin anditws te imirens establish.. e hsta li church inirland, e members of that per- Sou a were ecreaig every day, he beggd to direct the attention of th house to situation of the atisolic church a itmWas Necessary to see w the Cpathiolies wece about. There were 2w Catholic bishops in Ireland who weroe resident, - perorudi their duties punctually, anid received, severally, an incomie of ie believed, fron abetween 3001. and 7001. The ;luniberbu Catholic priests, who were divided into paririg s priests and their as- s3istanits, was uipwardsi of 2,500. When it was seen that there were no less than 1,500 Protestant clergymen to attend to 500,000 Pro- testa=, thec numiber of Catholic clergymieni could not. be con- sidsred toolalrge, when it was recollected that t wey had to ad. minister teligious instruction to a population of 6,000,060. Hento. derstood that the Catholic clergymen performed the duties of their sacred office in the tmost exeumplary mianner, aind were as charit- able as their liniitcd incomes enabled theta to be. They inicreased the nuimbers of itteir congregations by their assiduity and at.tention,whieli were the consequenice of their imoderate salatries. It was useless to expect the rich to labour, It. was- only mien who were anixiDus to obtan their miaintenance who wouild labour. (Hear.) In Scotland the niumber of Catholics hiad decreased, owing to the activity and zeal of the clergymen of other sects ; andI it. was only, in consequence of time supineness of the established churcht in Ireland, that the Ca- tholics han so ratpidly increased there. The question arose, what ought to be done, nowi that the Catholics formed such an immense, masjority of thte population of Ireland ? Uipon this point he would state to the house the opinion of WVarbulrton, whom nobody could ac- cuseof halink.beef an eCnmy of the established church. Warbur- torn said-.." When) there are several religions existing in a state, the state should naturally tlly itself with the large-t." Thatiwas to say, that if any assistance were to be given bv the GoverameTit at all, it WOULif be on:y a palliation. Still the niere agitation of the question must produce good, and he believed that its beneficial efrects had even already begun. But heshould say that the present systen et' the church establishment, and the manner in which its duties were performed, was a question of tenfold importance; because, although a supply of capital was an advantage, yet that would be only a temporary one, unless security for its employment was at the same time obtained. He had in his possession accounts by whiclh it appeared, that within a recent period 27 millions sterling of English capital had forced its way into varioxk5quarters of the wo:ld in the shape of loans and otherwise. Desperate as was the chance of return in some ofthese instances,they were preferred bythe capitalists to the security of Ireland. With this lesson, then, read to them by the monied interest, did it not behove his Majesty's Government to look at the causes by which thishatd been produced,and themeans of removing it ? They ought not to deal with palliatives, but to a - ply to the root of th cvil, which he believed consisted alone in tF e intolerance which prevailed in reliieus nmatters, aRd in the church establishment, in the amount of its revenues, and the nanner in which they were collected. If the opinion he entertained that the want of security was the reason for which capital did notLnd its ar into Irelaud was correct, and that the state of the church establishS- ment was the cause of that want of security, he submitted that ho had made out a good case fbr the interferetice of the house; and he should now proceed to state the rasons upon which that opinion was founded. He had the authority of Pletcher of Saltoun for asserting, that the tranquillity of Scotland was owing mainly to the liberty which every man there enjoyed of following his own savsteta of religion i1 his own way, and to the introduction of schools. If the state of things in Scotland before its inhabitants had asserted their freedom in religious Rnaitcrs, were compared with the present state of Ireland, probably the same oppressions, the same disttturb- ances, the same misery, would be found then to have existed In the former as prevailed now in the latter country. The distfurbances of Scotland had been allayed. and that country wai made tranquil. and had become prosperous, by religious tolerance and the diffusion of education. By a parity of reasaning, it was fair to assert that the Sanie means applied to Ireland would produce the samne results. Of this he was as certain as that he breathed, and he believed ino uess that such measures would commiand the loyalty and ensgre the tran- quility of the people of Ireland. Every hog would be iin the same state of cultivation there, as every spot ot earth that was capable of it was in Scotland. He would asli his Majesty's ministers what they should liave to fear from tiaking the steps necessary to bring about so desirable a stste of things ? He had turned the subject in evcry possible shape in his own mind, and he dedlared that he saw-no pos0 s,blc objection to their doing so. The evidence which had been re- ferred to on a former evening, proved that wherever there was su$fl- cient employment, there was no disturb;nce; in other- words, that wherever the labourer received the rewrard of his e,xertipns, and W3S freed from oppression, he was tranauil annd well-conducted. If, then, in addition to this;, the people werc allowed, as in Scotland, to have their own priests and to pay them themselves, andDQtbe required to pa7 those of any other religion, was it not reaton- rble to believe, that the first tulitt of this qcange would pro- duce, as it had roduced in Scotland, satisfaction and peace, and lut an end to al disturbance and disorder ? If this were once established, Englisli merchants andi manufacturere would hasten across the water, and carry their capital to the amount of millions upon miUions into Ireland. If any man were inclined to doubt that bhat he had stated would be the consequences of tie change, le4him sey whether, in any other countries, Irishmen were not as industrious, sactive, and as honest as other people in the world. If they ivere not, he should like te know why they were noL. He wished the house to look at the state of those nations in which religious tolera tion did and did not prevail, and of which he had a list. In Spain, dO man wascapable of holding any office, civil or militarg,whodid not profess the Romau Catholic religion; but no one, he thought, ceuld say that the prosperity of S_pain shoald encourage any other nation to follow its example. In Portugal atnd in itady the samne system pre'vailed, and the *ame conclusion roight be drawn. In Denmark and Swveden there wvas a law that all persons holding office must profess tie Lutheran religion, but this was commonly evaded. In England agid Ireland no nian was competent to enjoy all the privi- leges of thc country unless he was a member of the Church of Eng. land. These were.the aations where intolerance prevailed. Those wbich were tolerantwere, first tue United States of Amedci All uu5ULt ulttolttedly to be given to the class which forms the majority of the population. If the nrinciple propounded by Warbur. ton were ever to be applied it sutrely ought to be so with reFad ta the Catholics of Ireiand, who formed suchi an over- wnelMing r!ajority of the population. The opinion of Psley coincided with that of 1frarburton: the former espressed him.. self as follows:_- It is the duty of the magistrate, in the choice of the religion which he establishes, to consult the faith of the nation, rather than his own. ' I ' * If the dissenters ftrom the establishment become the majority of the people, the cstablish- ment itself ouFht to be altered or qualificd." Hie contended that the principle laid down by the two writers whom he had quoted ought to be carried into effect with regard to the Catholic religion in Ireland. It must now, he apprehended, be admitted on all hands, that not the most distant hope could be entertained of re- ducing the nttumber of Catholics in lrcland by mcans of proselytism. The only reasonable course that could be adopted was to tolerate the Cathelic religion,andaUovw it to hepromulgated withuntreetraint. He thought that there could not be a difference of opinion on this point amongst alny men who were unbiassed by interested mnotives. It would become the house, as the grand inquest of the nation, to in_ quire into the facts which he tad stated, and to take such measures as the result of the inquiry should render necesstarv. He wouldpro- cecd to another part of the subject. luch had been said in that house respecting the manner in which the numerous atnd wel paitl Protestantclergyinen in Ireland performed theirduies. 'l heresu tof alU the inquiries which he had made, was a conviction that they were very deficient in the perfoinisa.ce of their duties. According to a returnon the table of the hguse, it appeared that the number of pa- rishes in ireland having benefices was 2,224. Of these, 1,391 were in the gift of the Bishops. In the gift of the Crown, the number was 293; malkin the total number of benefices in the gift of the Crown and the Bishops, 1684. In lay hands there were 3(17 be- nefices, and the universities possessed 21. There were also 95 inappropriate and acant, and withoat churches or incumbents. The return did 4ot state how the remainivg benefices, 77 in number. were dis.iosed of. In 1818, the total numbcr of' incumbents was 1,%89. Out of this number 758 were rc- sident, and 5l1 were non-resident. The non-residents, therefore, formed a considerable portion of the whole number of incumbents. When it was recollected that every Catholic clergyman resided in his parish, sto petson could be surprised at the great increase wb ich had taken place in the number of Catholics within the last bat \?r tury. He bad made an abstract from a return laid before the house, of the number of resident and non-resident clergy in the dIiocess of WVaterford and Lisiore. There were fbur resident rectors, and nineteen who were not resident; of vicars there were thirteen resi- dent, and thirteen ttor-xeaident: there was only one curate, who was resident. From this statement it appeared, that out of fifty indivi_ duals,vonly eighteen wereresideut. In thisnutrber, too, tbere were eleven pluralitse holding, rome two and some three benefices. Look tt the result oftYil system. n l166 the Catholicfamilies in Water. ford, according to ir. Wakefield's calculation, amounted to 16,519, and the Protestant families to 2,879. In 1792 thenumber of Catholic families in Watertbrd was 108,625, whilst the number of Protestant families was only I ~i75 During the interval between 1766 and 1792 the number of ia;holics in Waterford, as compared with that of Protestants, had increased from six to one to 80 to one. Still, however, 50 benefices were maintained for the instruction of 1,375 Protestants. Judgin from wiat had taken place, it was not at all improbable that in a hort t.me there would not bea single Protestant famiUy remaining in the county. Surely in such a case no man, let him carry his support of the Protestantestablishment to the utmost extent, would say that 50 clergymen should be retained who had no duty toperform. There must be a limit to every tlhing. Ele should care hsteje about the past, if Parliament, profiting by experience, would set to work in earnest to cifTct the reform which was necessary. There were plenty of matenalb to work upon. So long as the present sytem should be allowed to continue, it wouxld bc in vatin to look for tranquillity in Ireland. lle had been told thlat the recenedisturbances in the north. west qurttar ot' the county of Corkhad been umainly caused by the tithe-system. It had beenstated in tbnt house a few niglhts ago,: that Ireland. dlffertd from all other countries in this sespect_tbat when a disturbancze broke out there, it rapidly sprcad sverw gFeat' extent of territory. -Why was thiis?, Bthisethe countr.v was pro. paltcd fof xtbelllob, &nighs comjaseltezdstuMiot: of .Irelaud to a, . . . 4~~~~~~~~~~~~r train of gunpowder, to which it was obly necessary t~o apply the mnatCh"to cause a general explosion. The tithe-system a~ed a sufficient explanation of' this state of things. In thie parish of B3allyvourney, in the county of Cork, whiere there was n.l glebe. or glebe housle, or residling clergyman, or churcfi, and not a sit) le Pro- "'tett,the Cathiolic inhabitants were called upoin to pa ies, va- ry ing fo 5001. to 7001- a-year. In the parish of Toa ruw- Mound, in which there was only onie Protestant fiamily, the tithe amonunted to 7001. In Aha iiollog~ where there were' five or six Protestant families, but, no residlent c.ergyman, the tithe demanded fromn the inhabitants was 9001. In Innis Carr, which contained thvree or fnur Protestant famnilies, the tithe was between 2,0001. and 3,0001. In three other parishes, namely, Clondrobid, Donough- Thore, and 'Whiteclhurch, in whbich thie numiber of Protestant fanileies was eight or nine, the tithie was 2 9001. Thus it ap- Peared that -thie tithes, which were almost tleoly paid by the C`ttb0licz, amnounted 'in the parishes which hie had men- tiOned to more than 7,0001. annually, for thc,-.glebiatlion of' dj"tto service to 18 or 20 Protestant fasmilies. 'The impres- "'or Ort the mindis of the peoP-le of irelandl was, thbLt the mioney which was taken fromn them for tithes was taken. from- them by, an ilGtof robbery. Such being their feeling-s, it was not-surprising that they should go frTequently break out into acts of otrhttge. If he Were In -the unfortAnate situtation of the Catholics of Irelatid, he thought that lie slhould be as violent as -any of them. Indtied, he should thinLk it his duty to be so. That was a strong statement, but unl&,s he were to divest hiimself of human feelings, he could niot 'act'differently fromn the population of Ircland, if lie were placed in a siMilar situationi. He was glad to find that the opinion which had l'ately beent expressed of thii inutility of:the deans and prebendIs of Irelinsd, had been entertainedI m-any years ago by a man who was not likely to be -'uspected of entertaining opinions hostile to the esat- btised hurh-h alldedto ordDarmouth. In a note to the .5thvolme f Brnet Lod Dremuthsaid_-1l"We hear much of the ovety f sme o th elegs, bt nothing of the wealth of otbea" hat,inded, as en tue.But he had been informed tha thee ndiiduls ho ad iled the primacy of Ire- land- ha did woth bout3000001. each,. althiough they were very poor when they attained thei dignity. ([lear.) He had eLcpectedthLt day to obtainsa opy of the probates of the wills of those individuals (a laugh), but ho had been disappointed. He wa, h~Owever, convinced that his statement was correct. Som~e ot these immense riches were arnassed at a period when the distresses of Iteland called forth the symnpathy which this countr3y'had so ho- noqrably exhibited, and whiei thousands of Irishmnen were dy,ing of fMmsine. (Hear, hear.) HIe begged pardon of the house for bavitig digressed : he would read the opiniofi of -LoArd' Dartmiouth- " We bear much of the po-t'ert of sonmc of the clergyv, butt 'nothing of the wealtb of others ; but tai e it on the whole, andA Ro Christian church has a bettor provision. If the landIs belonging to deans and chapters, who are -of no more use either to the church or thie state than abbots and monks, weredlivided ampong the poor clergy in every dioces, there would be no just cause of complaint, unless that bishciVs'd(Uughtqrs would not go off so wvell as they do now witha gDodsinecare; andifbi.sbops~themTselves 'vere broug,ht toan equality of revenureas well as function, it would prevent the groat scandal1 given by commendamns and traiuslations that are daily increasing. But ift is to be hoped that the legislature will think proper, Sogie time or other, to put them under a better regulation." T[hos,e wets thesentinsents ot'aTory, and notofa Radical.He would as,k anyvmember of thaLthouse to lay his hand upon his heart and say tht-e aidn t aicipate in those sentiments ? We ia suchplr conduct as had-been exhibited by the Bishop of Derry, wlmwa i the receipt of 20,0001. a year, respecting the repairing ot a cathedral lie could not conceive what the Iri3h Government or the church itself could be about. Did they suppose that because the Public had hitherto borne. with them until their patience was nearly Cy,jsistd, that therefore theiy would be allowed to go on as they had e~'o oi with impunity ? I t would be a scandal to the house and thd'country if the presentsystemn wore allowed to continue. [The hon. member then 'procee-ded to refer to the cascs of seveoral clergy- mnen who held pluralities, -bunt he road their names in soi hurried a manner that we could not, collect them.1 Mlost of the indiividuals whom he alluded to possessed three or four benefices of considera- ble value, the duties of which were performed by curares at a low salary. He weuld mention a fatct to prove that the Protes- tant bishops in Irelana did not do their duty. One of the excuses for thie non-residence of the clergy vwas, that in many cases there were no globe-houses. An act of Parliament was at present in force, wh.ich provided, " that every clergyman who possesed a living which yiel1ded him 1501. a-year, anti in whiceh there was no globe-hiouse, should, if he held the living for two years, build a glcbe..house." He had received a list of 20 or 30 clergyme.,, wbo had held their livings for 10 or 12 years withoait buxilding any globe-houses. Thebhon.nisember the-n made the followving statemen3t -The number of betiefices with cure of souls, was, 1,270 ; churches, 140; benefices without churchea, 192; unionrs, 453; g;lobe-houses, 717 * benef cea, withiout globe-houses. 529; benefices without tglebe. lands, 343 ; incumbents resdent. 763 ; incumbents absent, 507. Hie would ask why did not the bishops of the Irishi chiurch do their duty ? . Wh~y were'tliey not obliged to be more attentive to it? He would assert, aril he could prove it, that they neglected it. He was informed, upon -very Ftood autho-.ity, that since the bringing ini of the bill to enforce t4e reidence of the -clergy in Ireland, one bishop badi given away two i ,ig to individuals who could noct po6sibly reside en them. (Lie excpected to he in possesion of the facts in a few days.) He then wouild rcueat the assertion, that the hou-se would not pe-rform its duty te the public, if it suffereel such a systemi to continue without ap-plying a sufficient remedy. He was niow near the close of Iiis address; but before he con- cluded% he would make a few remarks upon a circumstance connected with the Irishi Church, in which lie would assert, and lie wudpoehis assertion,that the Irish Government were very much to bansefor the part they badl acted. Me chargedl themn with a gross dereliction of their duty. They ha broken the law, and pitt a stop to a proceeding which was likely to. be attended w,ith benefit to the poorer clergymnenn ir.Teland. lie' would. lrove this charge. It wns well known that there were such things -as first fruits, anti it was also known that they had been mnade over by the Sovereigns of this country to the clhurchi, in aidl of the incomes of the poorer clergy. WVhen these were.fir.at given in England, it weas al!so proposed that a. similar concession should he miade to the Irigh church ; but Lord Godolphin, whlo was then minister, refused at first, alleging that they would be of' no use, as they wouldi not bc applied to the purposes for whichi they were sought ---niproving tile icmsof the poorer clergy. This was also the opinion of Dean Swift, who saw Much clearer on most sutbjects than many at thic rpresent day. The deniand was, however, pressed upon the nii- nistr, and was at lenoth conilplied with. He should here state, that a dlifference between the Englishn and Irish church wvas this-that iii Ireland the clergy were not called uipon to pay tenths, biut in England tliey were regularly paid, besides the pay-ment of first fruiits. Now the g?avanvtsei of his charge against the Irish Government was in their conducet with respect to the valuation of those first fruits. In England, the value of the first fruits was fixed by statute at a particular sum : in Ireland, the suim was tiot deceided, but was to lie taken by valuation, fronti timie to time; and it was but justice to MrI. Shaw Maison, whose conduct he hiad to miention, to say, that in his efforts to procuire a v,utuation he hiad acted With a 'public spirit which did him great credit, and which, instead of being discountenianced, a-s it bird been by the Irish Governuieot, deserved its warmest support. Somie tiune back, whien hec made a motion on the subject ofTIish cliuTch prnpertv, lie was cliarged withi an attempt to despoil the clergy, of' thieir property. It was, however, as he should be able to show, the Goverunment whicdi liad robbed the church, and not he. They deprived the poorer clergy of the pittance intended for the improvement of' their revenues, for thte purpose of giving it to the rich), wvho had already too muchi. Bitt to return. By the papers laid before the hituse, it appeard that the pavyments niadle as first fruits in Ireland amnounted to-wha-t wouldI the hotise think?' iNo doubt some hon. members wete imnagining a snin of 30,0001. or 40,0601., if one might guiess fromT the richies of thic church livings in, Ireland ; but no such thing; the whole of what the bounty of time Sovereign had intended for thec relief of the poorer clergy, aisiounted to 9lll. (Hear, hear.) If ever tiiere was a mnockery in the mranage. merit or collection of church revenues, it was this ; and surely after such an abuse was once pointed out, it would not longer be tolerated. It apipeared by the returns before the house,that tdie see of the arch- bishops andi bishops of England wer'e rated in the King's books at the sumn of 21,3241., whilst the 18 bishopric.s and fihur archbishoprics of Ireland were rated at the coznparatively small sum of :1,1771. This dlifferenc-e wa-, a scandal to the churchi of Irelanrd. It further appeared that the sees of England paid in first fruits in seven years the sum of 5,9991., and in the same time the teniths amouinted to 3,51,making together 14,8531.; while in the sante time in Ireland, wheret'he clerg,y paid no tenths, the whole anuount of fir-St fruits did not excecd the sum of 9101., being about one sixteu-tth of the sum paid in England; and taking, whicli wras not an uinfair valuation, the Irish church to be thiree rinses as richi as that of Eng- land, the proportitin, to the valuie of livings9, would be about one- forty-eighth of the sum which EnglandI paid. WVas not such a dif. feretice, lie would ask, a disgracc. to thle Irislh church, as well as to the Govemnuient which could -tolerate such partiality ? He weould now state the facts on which he chiarged the lrish Government with highly blameable conduct respeeting the valuation of the first frtuits. The hsonourable meniber theni went into a long statement on the subject, which was, in substance, that Sir. Slhaw Alason, who is in possession of the patent place of' clerk or reiiiembraticer of first frutits in Ireland, wished, as lie (M1r. Hume) contended was his duty under the act. of Parliantent, to hiave the first fruits ratedi on the yearly and improvedI value of the livings, and miade a demandI to that effe~ct. Th.a wa, refuised by some of the clhtrch dignitaries, who contended that the officer had no authority to re-value, but to take first fruits on the original value, wvhich (said Alr. Hlume) it was well k-nown to be out of all proportioni below ithe present actual vslue. Yltr.S.31ason took the opinioni of a lawyer(.1Ir. Allen) on the subject, and lie, after referrng to the act, istated as his opinion, that the pa- tenteesi (Messrs. Umeasn end Gla-scock) bad the power to re-valueall benefices, the rates of wliiA had not been made pernmaneat by statu te. Upon thi,. opinion, Sir. Slason was about to act, and it was unneces- sayto adid, that it wouldi have been most materially for the benefit ofth Doorer clor y in Ireland, had he been allowed to dlo so; but here die claw of t e Irish Governnient, whtch was on every occasion readily stretched out to protect a job, or vrevent its exposure, was thrus,t in lo arrest the honest exertions of this public officer in the faitfuldisharg ofhisditt. T suh acts on the part of the Go. ys~umeas o Irlandmigt b trcedthose evils whicls liad made J~~n wht t atpresnt as.i'tr. ason received a letter froma l!~Goulurn,convyingthe ord i4entenarit's commands thathe hou no proeedwit a alution on the ve,arlyva u.Jr.JasO gave in a letter his reasons for having actetl tbus, and also tite legal opinion by which they were supported ; but in some nme after be received another letter, from thie satn quarter, conveying the opinions of the Attorney and So'icitor.General for Ireland, that heand his co-patentee in office had no authority, in virtue of their situations,to makesuch re-valuttionsoffirst fruits ; and the letter atued, that should they continue 50 to do, the Lord-Lieu- tenant would remove them froys their offices, which it was hinted were only held during pleasure. (Hear.) The opinion of an Attor- ney or Solicitor-General in cli a case, he (Mr. flume) added, he agrreed with an hon. friend in tkinkg was not worth much, for it was generally such as it wa de.sired to be.' He would now, having stated these facts. ask the house whether they were slot of thcm.sves sufficient erounes for an inquiry? He wvould ask the Attorey-General for Ircland why were those gentlemen appointed to their situations if it were not to collect the first fruits by valua. tion ? for it appeared by the very patent of their appointment that thev were authorized to value beRefices under the act of Henry VIII. He would now put it to the house whether it could sanction such proc-edings? WYould iinisters toleratc such abuses? From the liberality which some of them had already evinced on some oc- ctsions, he did hope that they would not lend themselves to a svs- tem bywhich theyublicmtouey wassomisaaplied. Hedid conficl y trust that the right hon. Secretary for l'reign Affairs wouli not throw his powerful shield over men who advocated such abuses, however rhey might be pro:ected by others. The pablic now look- eedup forprotecionagainstsuch gross jobs, and he trusted they vould not be disappointed. The Irish Government might havcr- lied on the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor-General, but at all eventsthie was another legal opinion the other way; and as there as a differtnce, the poorr clerg, for whose benefitthos4! firnrmts were might have had the benet of it. He hail known nothing, I since he had a seat in Parliament ,which called more loudly for in. quir tIra id hisfact; and if hie had not mnentioned anjy other,he thoghtit oul bea sufficient groundl for granting his isiotion. tieougt t aplogze for detainine the house at this leng-th (bear, hear; bt terewasone orhier observation which he could;not abstain frmmaking, and lie didI it more to satisfy the scrup'ea of some gentemen as to the inviolabilitv of tithie and other chiurch property, than as a reason for a r, moviti of any doubts of his own, for his opri- nion was long fixed on this subject. He knew that many gentlemen Objected to any measuare calculatedl tD inteifere in any manner with the property of the chUrCh, On the grouind that it was a sa- cred and irrevocable grant. He held in his hand a book pubIlshed at Oxford in the vear 1008, in wlhieh it would appear that tithe and'othier churchi pjrop~jrty were not looked upo-s with the same reverential awve as at present, but were rather conlsidered as a pro,, per'ty which the Sovereign mighst give to the chiurch, and rosuime at' p eaue In looking to this subject, thley ought to go back to thetmeof Henry VIII., when the tithes wecre taken from one set of men and given to anothier. It was well known that Henry VIII. gave away tithes at will, not merely, to the church, but to laymen, and thaltseveral lay impropriators at the Ipresent dlay possessed con.- sideabl prpery inth wa. Hnrys will in those grants was law-hs inunctons nd poclaatios in ecclesiasticaLl as well as civl ffarshadth foceoflegsltiv eactens;and most of toseresectig rligon wre fteward pasedinto law. The ook n hi han conaine oneof tose njuntion;, in which he ordered that "1 the use ofhlybed in oly wa. ter, and the payment of tithies, shold ecntne until the King changed or abrogatedainy of them." This injunctioni con- tinued in force till the reign of Mlary. it was; then repealed, but was afterwardsrenewedl in thtereign of Elizabeth, and continued us- repealedltotlhe presenjtday. He had only mentioned this (ashe hadt already saLid) to satis,fy the scruples of others, that chiurchi property ,wAs not alwayst considered of that inviolable characte'~ which some meimber wished to attach to it, and that we inight, withiout a violation of any sacred principle, consider of the expediency of dispensing wvitfi any number of bishops, as well as our' an. cesfors had ot uniting two bishoprics into one, or mfighit con- sider of allowving parties to purchasce their tithe altogether, by which the disagree-able and ofte.s litigious process of annual col- leiction might be avoided. fiel again begged piardlon for occupying the,house at this lenzth, bu~t he couldl as'sure them that he had not t-'ld half what might be said upon it. He knew that he mighit be misrepresented, and that this might be stated as a question ofpiounds, shillings, and pence. Buit though even in that sense it would be by no means an unimportant subject of considieration, still it was not in thatlight which he put it. le contended forjtie principle,ethatwhen an evil was known to exist a remedly shiould be applied, and that it wasq the duty of the house not to allow that evil to increase, whiere a remedy might be applied with effect. The hoimonrable member then briefly recapitulated the main points of his speech, and aftex observ- ;ng that hiwr object was not to inijure the sta'blished clhurch in Ire- -land, or to attack its possessions, but merely to piledge the house to an iquiy, nd hathe oul leve t toth house to say whether tha inuiy soul b bymeas f aselctcommittee or a com- mision heconludd b moingthefollowing resolution-" Re. soled,Tha i isexpdiet o iiqurewhether the present churchi estalismen of relnd e no moe tan commensurate to thie cter- vices to be performed, both as regards the 'number of persons em- pIns edt, and the incomes they receive."* On th qestion being put from the chiair, Mr. STA'IjEY rose to oPPose it. The honourable memiber be- gan by exuressing hi% regret at being obliged to oppose the motion. His regrei was increased by the very temperate nature of the mo- tion, and the manner in whiich it was madie. Agreeing, as he did, in many points with the honouirable mover, and not hav-ing any ob- jection thiat the- church should be before the liouse in its moral, po. litci, nilpecniry eltios,he oud not think that the modle propsedby-thehonurale embr culdbe pursued wvith advan- tageor wthott dnge. Th tie chsenfor this wvas most unfor- eunae, nsI e tough th moton tsef calculated to loweri the cha- ractr o th eeabUsed hurh. rejdice to the chlurch establish- mentin rela4 h hadnon, -ad i diposition to relieve Ireland he Iwould yiel to no man. It was but too wvelt knowni that withini the last fe&w years attemypts had becen maide by the press, and through the more dangerous chahnels of priv ate insinuation, to cast odium on the establishled churchi, by maliciously aspersing the character of its clergy. He would tissert that had one half the zeal which had been exerted against the church been used to bring forth the hiighi character, themany virtues, and amiable qualities, the unustenratious discharge of their sacred duties, of the grout body of its members, that church would now stand above the reach ofallithat malice and caluimny couild invent ; but this was net done. On the contrary, the vices ot somne individuals, and the failings of others, were put forth in a tinost prominent manner ; and, being contrasted with the unassuming virtues of the great bodly, served to show th"otatsill more clearly. The hon. member then proceeded to contend, that in a matter of suchi vita Im rtne to te nation, the utmost care and caution should beused, _st by anindiscreet zeal for doing good we miighit inflict an irreparable inijury. He would not assert that there mighit not be circumstances whiich would justify an interference w~ith the property of the cliursk buit he would maintain that no such circumstances couild exist whichi would not equally justif'y an inter- -ference wvith landed, fuinded, and commiercial property. (HIiear, hear.) Suchl circumstances did not exist now, nor was there any probability of their existAence at any future periodi. He then proceededI to con- tend, that as 'a measure of finance, the inquiry woutld be unjust and unnec,essary, and that as a measure of conciliation, it would be worse than useless. The motion either went too far,or not far enough. Tue establishedl chuirch oflireland should be supportedt, or given up altoge- ther. He could not considerthiis motion asanyvapproach to asystei of conciliation :it was, on the contrary, rather to hold uip to the Ronman Ca'tholics of Irelanid, thie Protestant church as one towering above their heads, "1 in prideof place " and enormous influence of wealth, or one whichl in turns excited t?ieir indignation and envy'. He com- plained in the strongest terms of the exaggeration whichi prevailed and was circulated under anonymous insinuation respecting the chuirch property oflIreland. and the efforts which, under thespecious pretexts of' correcting ecclesiastical abuises, were directedI against the exist- ence of the establishment itself. He conjutredI the hiouse to show itself the pTotector of the church of irelana, and prevent the triumph which, would f'ollow fromi thie adloption of a motistn like thi.the honi. genit. then qiiotedI stiveral passages fraim pamiphlets circulated in Ireland, to show the violent temper which prevailed anmong cer- tain Cathiolic bodies respecting the established church, and also extracts from the BisltopotljUiiinick's charge to his clerg.y-a prelate distinunishcd by the itighest %vorth-to shiow the different temnper withi whlich, these clharges were imet. Ilie then argued at somne length, thlat the Peasant of Ireland, whiose cotidition wvs truily unfortunate, couldl derive no benefit fronti a reduction of churcrh property, as it was ob- vious that the latndlordl would retain the amiount of whate'Ver dimi- nuition of tithie couldI be efi-cited.This inrtstbc the case area where the consunmer paid the tithe, fur the poor peasant coul(i not lie well said to scantl( in anytlhing likec the drituation of a constumer, lie was most anxious to sec the courlition of that peasant raised andi improved, andi imbtued withi a mioral sense rf whiat oughit to be inculcated into his sittiatiati of life ; but this miotion had no tendency to relieve or improve theicrish peasant. Ireland laboured undler four principaluwants -the wanlt ofaresidenjt gentry, thc want ofreapital, thie wvane or employ. meat, and of adequate education. Not one of' thcse wantsK could hber'e. lieved by the proposedtinqtuiry. ( Hear.) Iltwas, liethought, clear that the residtetice of rae clergy, ttie valuec of whiichi he enforced, suppliedt in somne degrree the place otf the absenit genCltry%; anti wooilti not that be tdirninished by the operation of-sutch a inotioni as- the present ? fie then revertesi to the mischievous exaggerations contained inl certain pamplilete whic'h were circulatedi in Ireland, onie of whicil stated., that according to parlianientary returtis, there were in Ireland 1,30(. benefices wyhich averatged 8001. a-year-a statement which be declar. ad was totalty iinfounded, and the estimate mio%t uinfairly and Ltn- truly fornmesi fronii an average taken ftoin one of the richest dioceses (Gloynet, anti witen the ,,ecrirnum was very hlighl. Tn reviewing some of the statemenits of the valueof church property made by tite lion, mover, lie saw, that instead of its amiounting, according eo oneconpttariis,to 1,047,2001. a-year, it did not exceed, in tnhat ato h chuords revenue, inuore than 327,5001. In de- s cribingt the ra value of' chiurch property in. Ireland, tite amiount of finesnd bishops' leases, lie raid he was authorized by a prelate who hart ithe best inf'ornation ont the siobject, to decl'are that the value of the bishiopricks was greatly overrateui by tite public, anti that, in point of ftct, of 18 bisliopricks, eleven were under 5, i01)1. a-sear; totir of the remaining seven undler 6,0001. a-year, one under 7,~000h. a-year, atid thie rensaining two not stared. It hail also been said, thiat the Archbishiop of Dubliti liad 144 richi livings in his giFN which averaged 11001. a-year each, and that the Bishiop of Kildare htad 131 such livings. Now the fact was, that the Archbishtop had only the patronage of 20 beniefices, eleven of whtch were of very inferior value. He pointed ouit errors of a similar nature, wliich he had every reason to believe characterized ithe lion. niover's statemsent respecting the deaneries, Iachdeaconries, atid rural deaneries, andwas also asitonished to find- hiow the hon. memiber had, unthervalued the incomnes of the Clatholic clergy, miany of thieparislh priests of wh-iceh enjoyed 2001., 3001., and 40.ayear, and some considerably more: indeed, there were in- stances where Protestants, miade them valuable ofic'rings,to propitiate their goodI opinion aimong the Catholic ponulation. He had hieard that stich was the face. Ile admitted that Ireland had suffered frotn that species of worrmiption in hier institutionis whtich was in a degree more or less inseparable fromn human frailty ; and he knew tha,t the prelates of' the establishied church were anxious to have a fair and full iniquiry made into the niature of their system ; but, howvever de- sirable it might be to issue a commission for sricli a puirpose, he cotild never give liis support to that species of inquiry which prejjudged in. stitutions before tisey were investigated, and which at once stamiped withi injustice an establisltment, on rthe faith of exaggerated amid tin- fouinded misstatemnents, before a syllable of evidence was offered to substantiate such severe allegations. (Loud cries of " Hear.-) Mr. DA WSON concurredi in the opinion thalt great exaggerationi prevailed respecting this species of property. The confusion wlhich prevale in the house preventedI us from hearing the details, for some time, into whichi the hon. gent. then entered in order teoshow the comparative numbers of resident and non-resident cleirgy at dif- ferent periods. In thie year 11119, there were 901 incumbents actu- ally residenit on their benefices, or in the next adjoining parishes. The bon. gentleman (Mlr. Husie) had estimated them at 763 only;, but the returns frons which he (Mr. Dawson )was quoting, he hadt caused to be prepared ivitls the uitmost care, and they might be per- fectly relied on. If those rectumrs were carefully examined, they wvouti( be found in the most convincing manner to establish this greiit truth-thjat wherever the Protestant church swas most strongly etar- blished in Ireland, there the greatestE~p~roprt,adqi,an good rder revale.1 (Ha1heethr wr the moset, andbe houses, there the greatest share of piblic industry, of comtnerce, and of happiness was enjoyed. The order of the provincesin these respects might be thus stated-Ultster, Leinster. Coanaump it, and dlunseer. i'iunster was the province in wihich, unhappily, Chic established religion was most neglected or least follow- cr. I-e begged, however, to bear testimony to the meri- torious character of thc Protestant clergy throughout Ire- land. They-were zealous in the rlischarge ot their duties, indis- criminate in their charities, which extended to the prof'essors of either faitlh, and in their own persons and morals afforded the hest examples of conductto their parishioniers. As pastors, they were attentive ro the spiritual welfare of their flodks; as landlords (and he said it confidently, notwithstanding all the clarnour which liRd been taised against them), they were indulgent and moderate with their tenant;s He would only beg to refer the most sceptical on these matters to the present state of the north of Ireland, in order to show that what he said was the fact ; and that in no part of the em. pire was the service of the Protestant church better performed. To his mind, no case had been made out for the necessity of changing the present establishment of that church, and he should therefore oppose the motion. Mr.DOMINICK BROWNE said, that as long as the revenuesof the establislhed church in Ireland were to be continued its their Pre- sent integrit, he had no hopes of the peace and prosperitm of Ire- land.-Fornm the last returns, it resulted that the total poptilatioii of Ireland was about 7,000,000 ; of these 7,000,000, about 5,750,000 were of the Roman Catholic persuasion ; 250,000 Protestant dissent- ers; 500,000 Presbyterians; amid 500,090 Protestants of the establishment. The landed property h'longing to th'e csta- blsdls church in the same kingrOrne. might. be fairly esti- mated (his honourable friend th,g)'it two eleveaths- of the whole produe or renstal of the island. What. mnight be the amount ofi calve bythern, it vas not pteritapsyrty e5.sv to say ;but he should assume. mCd ~upon good aLuthority, that theii landed property was equivalent to betweeti .one-fiurth a7nd one-fifth of the whole island. (The hon-. centloman then entered.into some explanations of the maniner in which thurchi lands w(ere let, and fines taken uipon anticipatedi renewals of, leases, &c.) -A.good deal had been said of the deduction to be made. from thie estimated valuations he bad al- ludedl to; on accointc of the reniewal and fine system ; hat all this imade no-difTerence as to the que%tion of thle value of churchi property, for it only amounted to tbis-if the A rchbishop of Armagh, or the Dean of D)erry, received now, or in 1819, OnlY -201. a Year for, a farmi that ought to -pay 1001. a.year, this hiappened merely because the Bishiop or Dean, his predecessor hatl, in 1804 or some p receding year, sold the revershionof t4e least for. 201. a~nnuaally. There were in reand about 2,500 parishes, ana ift l !ernisLs- as t e ou lation were correct, the.average of eachi paritsh woutld be about 109 Protestant Dissenters,. 200 Pres,byterians, 20.0 Protestantsof the Esta- blixhment,and:12,300 Roman Catliolicatf ithis enormous inequality pre.. vailedin the parishies ofEngland,woulkliucl adispilsition ofpropertybe endured laytiemnajorityofthe nation e%lento, the conclusion of aye'ar ? ff e thiought not. The bext mode of preservinig the Prostestant esta.. blishinent of rrelanda wouild be to makce soime provision for the Ro- man Cathiolic ldregvof thieconntry: Some,arrangement ought tobe adopted that mnight mnake it an obiect with, gentlemen to enter into that priesthood, insteadl of filling its orders., as9. was now generally the case, froml the peasantrr. In suich an event, tlheze would be At length somethingr like a cordial communication establishedabetween thne people and the Government. Impirtisea-' ith these notions, he felt'it to be his dutv to support the motion 'of lisa hon. friend. M Ar. ROBERTSON thought. there wvere but-two modes by which it Wag possible to restore peace and tra'nquillitv to Irelsnd; and of either of them the basis mnust be the union- of Reman Catholics and Protestants thems"elves. One of these modes would be, to admit the Rtoman Catholiccle!rgyoaaparticipationof tithes. (Hear:) The other (whichise had notyet heard alluded tomn th3thoilse, but whichdid not seemimrcticable: if his Mfajesty's ministers would only dlare to undrtae uch a task as to atternt it) inight be found in the union of thie Protesitant and the Roman Catholic churches of the kingdtom. (Hear.) This might seem at first sight impolssible to some honour- able gentlemen, but thiey who were acquainted with the events that had taken place in FEurope daring the lat six years, wouldl know that more difficult unions of religisus sects had been, in that inter. val, effected upon the coptinent. Let the Government take mea- sures, therefore, to ascertain what thle differences of doctrine were, as between the established church and the Roman Catholic church of Ireland. It woudld be found that there were no essential diiflbr- enee of aith an that in the main the creed of one was the creed of th othr pesuason. Achbihop illoton ad statedl, that the Aposle' cred, s i wasexpunde bythefour first councils, was wer moe gavend eigty,posibletho.ay between Romanists and Protestants. The oesc a total opposedI toi the other; an,, ye in 1817, the Govrmn fPrussa ben ihysensible of th atdvantages whicmutace to the conrrmter union, sanctioned that measure anid it had beescriedit efc with the best consequences, not only in that kingdom, but ini Hesse Cassel, Bavaria, and over the greater part of Germany. It was idle to talk about the benefit tha-t would arise from the introduction at present of capital intoTIreland. To maKe that efrective,tli people must berTn.. dered industrious; but industry could not be created unless a spirit of satisfaction- shouxld he Previously infusedi into the minds of men and this,he thought, was likely to be effected by nothing so much as such an uinion of r-eligiotes persuiasionst as he suggested. Mlr. GRATTAN would undoubtedly support the motion of his hon. frientd, from which he thought,muc gpoot mighat result, Hie would do so, not oiut of any hostilitv to the established church, but fromi the purest andl best intentions isossible for its service. PI.'r. PLUNKETT did not intendI to detain the house on this oc- casion at any leng'th; but after having been so Personally, (he did n.'t uise the term in, any offensive sense),so directly alluided to by the hon. eentleman (Mr. liume) with res pect to certain opinions deli. vee yhim (tr. Plunkett) on a former night, he felt it to be in. uimetipon him not to allow the house to adjourn under the per. fect delusion and misconception they would Ilabour under, if tesy went away possessed with the representations that bad been given of th!ose oinions by the honourable gentleman. lie thought thathc shiould not discharge his duty tothe house and to himself, without, in the first place, making tomie obserrations (and they should bit very few indeed on that point) on the general subject in respect ol which those opinions.-had been offeredl. And he should dlc so, rather for the sake of re-scuing a cause to which he had alway, been conscientiously attached, but to which much allusionb hadlbeen un. necsesrily'introluce.diato the dis,cus~sion of this evening, andsuipport. ed (fie would s-ay) by.argumentsofsuch anature that they were caleu. Ilated to do it the greatest harm, and to wvork it the greatest injustict in the mnind of every honest and every well-judging person in th( house. (Ifear.) The honiourable gentleman who. had introduced thnis motion, had COnsuRied the greater part of the time which he ha~ felt it proper to devote to its support-not in the Adiscussion of shi merits of theProte-stant church of lrelantd,or her clergy; but of thosi o f the Roman Catholic p-riesthood. A .nd really, when the honoura. Ible gentlemnan couipled the expressioin of his aj~iprobation of tha' priesthoodl with the exposition of his, plan for pulling down the re. venue of the Prot&dant church in that country (hear), of transfer. ring and delivering it into the hands of.t~he Roman Catholic hiieratr chy (for suchi was the scope of his propositions), ibie hou'se woult giv'e him (Mlr. Pliinkett) leave to say, that he deprecated the ho. nourable gentleman's advocacv of their cause moret han he should la, meat his hostilityto it. (Hear:) For himself, hehadeverbeen, and t the last hiour of fiis life he should feel proitd to-be, unalterably thi advocate of his Roman Catholic brethren : but in doing so, hi would ever respect established rights and recognized institutions and, whi!e hie vindicated the claimis of the Catholics, he should care. fully abstain from offering any wrong totePoetn dry_ no encroachments on their property-no aggiiession on their sacree fur.ctions. Suchwere nottcheingreslients of thegreatquestion whici hie hadl already had the honour of submitting to the house. S-uc.l were not the wishies, nor the opinions either, of the Roman Catholi, clergy or laity. Ile asked it, therefore, of the candouir of the housi not to allow the c-Ause of thec Cathotics of Ireland to be affected b3 what lhad heen said that night by the hon. gentleman. If that lion gentlemian's arguments had rested mecrely upon tlhe woeding of his motion, hc(r Plr nnlrkettrl(did not know thet there was a great (lea] in that noiotini with which he should abSOILutely qularrel (hear. hear) hubtt he inust judge of it by the spirit and the argumient.i with whichi it had heen supported _;and when he heard sonie gren. tlemen (very fete-, uindoubtedly) supporting it by thleir cheers4, hi couldI not feel that hie was quite safe in erribarking with suich coml. lparis. (A lauigh.) He wotuld not sail in tile saute vessad withi the honoriciable genitleman and hiis honiourable friendst to tlie high latitudes to whichi thiev proposed to run); nor conic hie agree to sail under sealed orders, that might be broken at a tinic when hie ecould no lonerer escape out of (hieirt bask, and get back it the lerra fir-ma of thec constitution which they had quiitted. Th( hon. gent: was tar no church establishmienL. (H ear.) Diet he do thiE 1hon. mnember injustice ? IIad he misunderstood hiim ? " Hie spoke (continued lr'. Plunketit) of Amnerica as a mod(Kel in this respect, Trake inotice. Mlr. Speakcer, andl let the house, I coniuire it, well re- niember, that this is the miodel whichl the honi. geiit)eman proponse to uis. He woul,ilihave us throw away ouir venerable institutions, ouir oldi establishmnents, and one ancient forms-, and adopt those ol Amier-ica in their steaJ." But these were principles wlInch, thouigh they hadl hero advanced by the hon. gentlenman, would fintd, hE trusted, no) advoc-ite in that hopuse. (Hear.) It did hiappen, how. ever, that in the latter part of his argtimentt the hon. gentleman lintd dismissed the A-merican miodel lie lhad propoial in its co)mmence. mierit; and after suigeesting that there ought to be no chiurch ecsta. blishinient at all,he had proceeded to state that lie did not altogether, as it were, disapprove o1' a hierarchyv, but would hiave it es- tablishied accordling to the prevailing prejudlices of a nation .and lie hail instanced the coniduct of king William in Scot- land asteningto howtha inthese cass the opinions of te mjorty f th contr shuld be dleferred to : and in thisporionof hs seec, th ~rpostion of the honourable geii. rlemn raher ppeaed t be t.lst te prpert ofthe- chutrchi oiight not o b taen way bu tht te lmerporionof it should be trasferedto he oma Cthoics iluchas ie(Mr. Plunkett) regretted the principles upon which theonuae gentlemani scen)- ced to found lii, niotion, the mean.sa sgetdfrcarrying it.t design into execution Were at least equally objcinble The honourablc member evidently thouglit that Parliamntwre at liberty, to deal with the property of the church, exactly in the same wvay as it it were a tax, or any, other property of time state ; anti this, opinion lie grouinded upon a supposition of public necessity. Now, that thec property of the church might not be interferedl with, as, well as tile property of the suite, in a ease of public necessity, he (Mr. Plun- kett) would not assert. But be it observetl,that upon the samne prin. ciple, the private property of every tnan in the kingdoni was eqttelIt liable. He knew v'erv well thalt both the property of the churc and tIme property of individuals must yield to thec exigencies of the state : to those ihc property, of the honourable gentleman himsgelf, as well as of every ether memnbef who heard himn, muusttgiveway: buthe would maintai'n that the properly of the chiurch was as s1acred as any oilier. And then the quiestion came as to the construction of the exigency which should call for these encroachtments on it. W'hat was the ptsblic exigency that required it to be withdrawn frontl its present possessors?" Or, whiat wvas the public good to he acquired by so withdrawing it ? lie w-as unwllling to enter into this part of the subject, whiich liad been already so amplv and so ably disetissed by an honi. gent. opposite (Mr. Staly)lie could not allude to that hon. member without colotm=aig him and the Irouse on the proofs he hadi so recently evinced of souind intelligence antI manly eloquience (hear); and on the resources which hehbad ex.' hibitedl in manifesting: his capability of drawinig upon themn during the exigency of a~ long debate, for answers to objections that had been incidentally taken. It was therefore that he begged to offer his congratulations to the lion. gent. and the country,and the cause which he had advocated, and the noble stock from whichi he lhad sprung, and which had now reo~ived a miost gratifying accession to it-s ra-, mnily honours. (Hear.) WVas it the opinion of' the lion, gent. (Mlr. Homne) that in lieu of tithes something in the shape of a tax ought to he levied on the land? lHe hadl not opened so miuch of' his propositions: but such 'was the inference that the house was warranted in drawing froni what he had statedl. He believed that it was one of the calamiities of the country, that there was, not consideration enough lied to the comfort of the lower classes oif the people ; but if the tithes, were.takenl awa fronts the clergy, they w;ouid fall into the hands of the lantIlords; and hie most again repeat, that to take awway the ancient rights ofone class of persons, to ive them tO another, could nort be termed any thing else but spohiation. If they began with the church, let the landholder look to himself, and let the fundholder also take care of bimself, as he lay even more conveniently than the landholder. HIe would beg to advert to one of the numerous exaggerations of the honourable member for Aberdeen: he had stated that there were upwards of 300 or 400 clergymen who werc absentees. He (Mr. Plunkett) did nOt exactly know the number, hut ie beiieved a hundred or two would not be thought material, when lie came to state what the numbers really were. Msr. HU, Bt, across the table, said there were 631l. MIr. Pl,UNRETT, in continuatiOn, said thathe feared he should hardly get credit with the house wihen he said, that if they struck off thedOO frora that number, the remaining31 would be a considerable exaggeration. He did not mean to accuse the hon. member of in. tendional misstatement, for indeed he went painfally and elabo- rately to work, but on inaccurate grounds. WPhere there was a union of two parishes, he callea the clergyman who had the union a pluralist, and an absentee if he did not reside on both the livings. (A laugb.) He. (Mr. Planltett) would state what laud been com- municated to himrby an individualof the higfest characterjustbe- fore he quited Ireland. On that most respq=eable.person's infor- mation he reposed the most implicit confidence, and he had informn ed him that there were not in rieland twenty clergymen who were. not residing on some benefi* If there- were rejlly SI3 absentees, horv case it that we did nt meet with them in- tgvgand? As far ache (klr. p'ltinkettJl4d wit(essed the.conduct of.the csta. blishedclergy of Irelandi it wsta impyitle1to find art-bod3 of men Who.wrere mtore exenpThry and attetsie to. thbe. dischargeif then X dudies~ :i hre; might be e,ceptions of i erwons wo e2kane to exbibit. themselves st watering.placcj as- bUa sadi tawggererm, but-oEsuch thfere were verv few' As to the first fruits, thehon. member for Aber- deen charged the clergy with very gross.minioonduti, andl at the same time that he arraign6a the opinion given by him (Mr. Plunktett) 0fi.- thh-t uibjec~t, he was equally warm in his approbation of Mlr. Allen, He (illr. Pluilkett) Would put it. to the candour of the house, whether, on an inquiry into the coniduct of ihe clergy of lreland,' it was quite fair to call upon himn to explain ani opinion given scd. long ago as the year 1822. He would, withi the permission of tlc, house, state to them as well as be could recollect the circumstances of that opinion. The first frulits wvetc vested in the Crown under [actsof icnrv VIIIL and Elizabeth, and'as he construed those acts, the rights of'-the Crown only, extended to thie first fmits as then eAta- blishied in the Kine's hooks. Thiey so remained till the reign of' Queen Ann, and she gave them up to the commistsione'rs of rirst fruits te took, therefore-, the rights of the Crown only ;an fo the space of 20.0 years, down to the time when bhe was consultedi upon the subject, that had be~en the mode of collection. But the gentleiian appointed to collect them took, upon himself to say that hoe would collect them at the full value. He (MIr. Plunkett) gave his 6pinion against that on two gzronUdS-firSt, thef. value in the Kinig's books, And secondIly, that the officer was not empowered to alter that mode' (Hleair hear, fromn Air. I-fume). He thanked the honourable gentlemaii for liis courtesy, in desiring that. bie (Air. Plunkett) shiouldl have a hearing. This person, then, had no mieans ot ascert-aining the actual value; lie' could neither adminiister an oathi nor suimmon a jury, lie (.lr. Plunkett) farther gave his opinion, that if any alteration wiere to he mad, te lgisatue hd pescibe th mode in which it should be oneby comision th pesos who were to compose it bein noinatd. fterwha he ad tated, he would submit that he as ot n b arainedfortheopnion which be had given, santioed,as t hd bcit bya pactce f 00 years. IViths resocct to te Potesantestblismen of he ounry, he considered it'ne- csryfor the security of all sects; an etoght that there should not only be an established huch but that it should be richlyl endowed, and its dignitaries be nbe to take thecir stations with thenobles of the land. But s~eaig of it in a political point of view. he had no hesitation to staretha the existence of the Pro- testaint establishrment wvas the onily bond of connexiosi betwean the two countries; and the mtmrent you despoiled the clergy of their pro- perties, or degradedl their characters, youx staled thie doom of the connexion. After a few words from an hon. MIEMNtER whiose name we couild not learn, Sir FRANCIS BURDETrT rose, and said hie was well aware of the difficultythere was in discussing anyc question of particular griev- anec, detach ed ftom the general grievances under which Ireland had so long laboiured. If the question of the general grievanlces was entered on, the ready answer was-" We acknowledge thecir ex- istence, but the subject' is toe great to grapple withi ;" and they were called unon to confine their. attention to some specific grievance'. 'When, as in'the present instannce, a specific grievance was pointed out, they were then met with the reply, that the grievance was nlot that the removal of which would cute the complicatedI evils corn- Plained of. The bonourable and learned gentleman had, to his great surprise, stated that the chturch was not in Ireland felt as a grievance. This was the miost extraordinary assertion which he had ever heard (hear, hear); and afrordedi a melancholy prospect for ~he People of Ireland, wvho had hoped for the aid of that honourable and learned gentlemian's great talents, anid the influence of his hiigh sta- tion, to be exerted in their behalf, in remiovingr some of the ntume- rout evils under whiiihthey groaned. He (Sir F. Burdett) hadX~ar- ticular views on the subject of that couintry ; hiit they extended so far, that lie apprehiended-thel, would be considered as visionary, at4d withiout the scopeof ordcinary practice. *But unleasssomething out of thieordinary track of- parliamentary routine were attempted, it.wouldI be useless to consider the saubJect at all. .After ages of' accumiulated evils on that unbaupv- couintry-accuimulatedl eithier for want of courage to search thinin, or inclination to apply any remedlies, it was at last come to this--that something mrust be dlone ; tile wounds must be probed to the bott-wimivith a steady hand. (Hear. hear.) Though he (Sir F. Buirdett) agreed in one re-spect with, the hon. and lerned ventlemran in the praises he had given to the speech of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Stanlev,) yet he did not think it cave any efficient support to the side of thie question wiciih he hail espoused, althioughethe honourable gentlemani opposite seemed inclined to ride off upon it, instead of coming forward as Ministers, to say what views they entertained of the remedies necessary to be applied to the complicated evils tunder wvhichi the country labouredl. Much had been said of the inaccuiracy of the statenients, of his honourable friend (Mr. Hutne). Is was easy to say thley were inaccurate, but let them point out the inaccuracies, though that was, not the fair way of treating hiim, since his staterreats'were founded on returns made to the house, for the accuracy of which he did not vouch. As for the church of Irelantl, he (Sir F. Burdett) was one of thsee who believed that the chiurch property was nor Ko mischievous as many persons iiagined, but he contended that it did stand on a different footing front private propertv. It was given for a public service, andl whien thecy talked of the tionors. lie would ask to whom wvas it given? Not to the church whle' held it,but to another' and therefo)re all the arguments addlressed to gentlemen of shaking titeir own property by medidlinig wsitli thaet, lie trusted the house would have the sense andc mranliness to con teinn. If it couldl heshown that tihe church of England wvas a wrong esta- blishment, anid that instead of promnotinig morality andI happiness, it was productive of vice and misery, andl was in ecvery respect con- trary to the public good ; if thiat could he proved, would it not he absuird t3 suippose tisat the public hiad not a right to) alter the disposition of its sevenues? But his arTgumlent wouldl not lose if he were to pttt it al private propertyv. Why was private propertr res4pectel, huit hecause it was for thie puth- lie good? Butif priv,ate property coutldbe provedtlobe inconsis.tent with the public benefit, he would say that that also should be al ter- ed, because the public good was the supreme late. Then canie the question-." Is the church of Ireland of that description," and "4is not Protestant ascentdancv one of the greatest cuirses of Ireland ?" It did not follow, if thatt wrere allowed. that he shouldI be for taking their property. But if it couild be showni that they would not permit equal rights to the suibjecs of' that couti- try, he was sure theywr their own enemies, atid wt'rkedl mnore for the subverin of their owni chuirchi than th- mnost avowved of theit adversarieR. But unlesRs the people of Irelanid, with-t ouit resoect to religious scruples, were admnitted so equiality of political rihts, one great soiurce of evil woultIialways remain. For t liose re- ligio-us scruiples, they ouighit to) be looked sip to and regArdled, instead of it being considleredi a mnark of repeobacion. The length of' time that they had remained steadfast is theiropii,ions evincedl a determnina- tion not tu be persecuted outof the fatith whtichi their forefathers so lonig held and to wvhichi they themselves conscientiouisly a(tihered. How absurd, therefbre, was it to say suchl people were not to be trusted on their oaths?l He owned there were othierconsiderations of greatim-. portance with a view to the relief' of Irelandl. Somne saidi the people of' that country wanted industry; othiers affinnied thiat capital was the one thing -which was wantine; and others thounght thecy wvanted thlat taste for tile comforts of' life whicih was the ereat stimiulattive to thie indusatry of the people of England. F'romn this-variety of opiti-on -it Would he seen how diflicitlt it was to pitchi upon the real cauise ; and perhaps the truith Hitight he, tkat a conibiniation of causes was at the bottom. Certainily, they dlid not wrant a taste for the pleasures or contfortts of life, ttiere wsVt, in) fact, no people on earth miore suisceptible of sudcs imipressions, lie rememberedi a good story, which was applicable ito that point. A gentletanat,iding alonz the high road, saw an Irishman att work upon it, who,. lie knew, hiad hut a few mionthis before been left a good le- g,acy. He askedl hitti how be.came to be working thlere, sitice he had so recently received his legacy? "1Faitit," said the nmati, " it's all gone. for I had a miind to see how gentlemien lived who had 2001. a year." Thte want of industry couldl hardly be chiargedl against themi for they cantio over to this couintry in crowds, in search of employment atidi atgentleman of largeestates oneetoldI him (Sir F. Burdett)ttiat lie had frequiently been paidbhis rent inLondon,frotnitnor.ey earned in this countr.y. Indoed, every thiing indicatedi that thec people of E ngland were being pushed, by, the influx of labsourers, into the stateof those of Irelanid; and, uLnless som-ethi-ng were done, the nulseries of tha.~t country would overflow Englandl. The lionotirable member (ihir. Stanley) whose speech was receivedl bY the gentlemnen opposite with the utmiost gratitude. as if it were like the Austrian payment, a sort of " God-send," hiad read frotin a pamphlet somec arguments bni the suibject of the redundlant popuilation--a. very great evil, no Idoubt, hut it Itad grown uip from the system of managinir estates, and dividing and subdhivithng every little plot of land ; atid the consequence was, that as there were no nianufactrires, or any other miode of employing the people, thev were ready to give an'y rents for a bit of lana), the produce of whiich would afford them a mere existence. To say that Catholic emnancipation would be a re- medy for that evil, he 'wosldl tint contend. WVhat, thlen, was the remtedy for it? In his opinion there was but one. This country wa:;shpososessed of the most magnificent colonies, of any powver in thie wor t. of every variety of climate, and suitable for every species of production. I'n this state of Irelandt, it appeared tO hliM there was bitt one remiedy, and that was colonizitng on a larger scale-not as of late years, when a few wretched settler were sent to the Cape of Good hlope, but on a magnificent scale after thie old Roman plan of' colonization. IlIe should think no money too much that was expended foe the attainmient of-such an object, taking care at the satne time to miake aLn alteration in the sys4temn of management of estates wvhich bad origin. ally prodluced the evil. But it miglit be said this was a plan of expense, and we were oN a systeni of economy'N. Still lie tliou-ht meant might be found : there was the 000.0001. for the n~ew churclhes, insteadl of that profligate vote, and the 300,0001. for thie re- pairs of Windsor Castle, theyvmight apply to this purpose, the whichl would niakce at once 800,0001., which, with the salt-tax that oughit to be given up to the people, aLnd whichi, lie trusted, would that night be given up, they wvoild have a clear niillion for what wvould, in hiis his opinion, be tlie only eff'ectual means to remetly the evil coi-n- plained of. This might be thought visionary ; but it was not so mnuch so as the plan which lie feared would be acted upon as proposed by Air. Oweni, whichi weuld make the whole king. dom a con'ntry of paupers after the first generation had taken the portions of lands whiceh he proposed to give thiem. As, to the particular question before the house, lie felt'convinced, as far as argumnent ivent, that the housecould not reject it; there was niothinig that the lion, member (.Mr. Staniley) had seated but what was in sup. port of the mnotion ; all his objectiton 'was to the timte at whichiit was brought forward, and because lie thoughit the honourable mOver lied originated it with hostile feelings. to the church e.stablishment of Ireland. The honourable and learned geti- tlemats (MIr. P!unkett) talked much of the sacretdncss of church property; but wliat he meant was the ascendancy. Titere was nothing in the motion to show that it was of a hostile na- tare; it raight turn outon inquiry that the report would befavourable to the estal4ished church of Ireland; it might turn out that instead, of the church of Treland being as it was reputed an inprovident and neg igent church,that the clergymen of that establishment merited the high character given them by the honourable and learned gentle- man. From wlhat lie stated it shoald appearthat the clergy of Ireland were an exanmpl: to thecliurchl of England, and lie believed, in fact, there were more non-residents coisitlerably in Bng:land than the number stated by the hon. and learned gentleman. If that were so, in God's name let it be shown. Nothiing had been said against the motion, butan evil construction had been paton the wosas of the hon. mover. But what had the speech to do with the motion ? The question was, wa-s this a grievance, or was it not ? Let the country know that sonie'tiing shoald be done besides mere Parliamentarv tactics. Let the people of Ireland see that in agreeitig to this ini' quiry, they might hope for further imsportant investigations into the state ci their countrv. (l[ear.) illr. L. FORSTERt said the question appeared to be, how mtich or howlittle of the propertyof tle chuirehof Ireland was now to beconfis- cated. To a-ree to the present motion, would be to a great proportionL of the people of Ireland a positive infliction of great evil, and to the remainder of it no benefit whatever. Indeed, he could not give his as- sent to the proposed inquiry, as he conceived it to be demanded upon assumptions that were notoriouasly unfonuded. The first assumption of the lon. member for Aberdeen was the total insignificance of the Protestant populatiori of Ireland when compared with the Roman Catholic. The hon:v member had said that the number of Protest- afltsdid.net exceed 5w010Th. Now the' -bose wts in possession of Vata&which enabled it to judge of 'the cirrectness' of that assertion. The populationof Irelandconsisted ofsixtoillions and three quarters. of whici two mnillons belonged to the province of Ulster. - Novi every gentleman who was tfcquaintedwith thbe ountiei of. -An'trirn, Downi, and Armagh, woufld ackenowledge that in those- counitie2 the inhabitants were nearly all of them Proteatanttt, or azi least that the Protestanit part 'of themn wsas far voort runsmrous than the Catholic:. The same- Was the case in- Londonderry. In Donegal the Protestauts were full as numerus as the.I Catholics. In Ca-iran thcef~vre ratliter, ald' h -Tjy6irne Tihey :i;;irimiuch, less- num-erous. Indeed,-hs -wouild be -fully justified in stating that 58-ths of' the population of Ulsterer rotcstarits-.-a calcula- tioni whiich wvouldI give 1,280,000 Protestants for Ulster alone. Trhough ins the country, parts of dinster, as dlistinguiished fromi thte towns, the'Cetbolics were much more numerous than the Protestants, Atillyupon the whole the! Protestants wvere in proportion to the Ca- tholics. as one to fiv'e ; in Munster, theyv irere as one to twkelve* anct in Connaught, as one to twenty-four. This c-alculation woulti give abouit 300 000 Protestants to Leijuster, 200.000 to lilunster, and 40,000 to (6onnauglit; and would tnake the'total amount-of Pro-. testants in all the provinces of Ireland about 1,800,000. This cal-. citlation sitowed that thie Protestants were to the Cathtolies iniirdland, not to thesrtomer:cal prttportion of I t,o 14, as the hionouirable me mber for Aberdleen ha stated, but in the numerical proportion of I to 4. If, then, one-fourth of' the population of Ireland were Protestant, oush'it they to proceeti rashly to destroy the property of its cburch, establishmient in order to conciliate the religious prejudices of the remiainder of its inhabitants ? Another assumption which the hion. metober for Alberdeen ladl made was, that the ecclesiastical propertty of Ireland in the hands of the.bishops ambuntedt to 2,800,0001. Now it was impossible for a moment to admit the correctness of thlis assumption without contradicting the evitlence of their senses. The,tbishops of Ireland on aii average did niot receive more than 8,. 01. a year. Thiere were it, it was true, certain bishopricks whtich hatl- immense emoluments, but there were others whicli were ex- cessively poor ; and be thought. that he had rather exceeded than thirminished the real av-erage in taking it at the ratio which he had mentioned. Now, to confiscate this property would be to spoliate the laity, and not the clergy, of Ireland ; for the chiurch property of titat countrY was% leased out amrong its Fgentry in such a manner, that for every 1,000l. which would be taken from the bishops. 5,0001. oC17,0001. would be taken from the coutntry gentleman. With regard to the amiount of tithes, he would prove that the hon. mnemberforAberdeern had also been guilty ofgreat exaceeration. The number uf parishes in Ireland wvas 4,500. Now itt 84 of thenm, taken indiscriminately, the valuec of the tithes hadI been ascertained untler the last tithe com- poslition act. Thieaverage valueof each was4l0l. ;and he conceived that this average was rather too great for the whole of Ireland. Taking the tithes; of all the parishies in Ireland at this average, the total amount %vould fall short of 1,000.0001. sterling. Of these tithes one-third at least were in the hands of the laity; so that the tithes leftin thie h4nds of the clergy wonuld not much exceed 6010,0001. Uponi this calculation the question arose, hiow far is this sumn essemtieal to the maintenance of the churchi establishment of rreland ? He would compare it with the rental of Ireland. whicki as tite house seemed averse to listening to the details into witich he ?tad entered, he would take, without stating the calculations front witich be dedttced it, at 10,000,0001. sterlinig. Of this sum the iticome which the clergy de- rived frotn tithes formed a seventeenth. The real qttiestion, thiere-. fore, to be eonsidtered was this--were the peasantry o1 IrThaind likelv to be benefittetd by the transference of this income to other landlortfs- thatt thiose which nrow received it ? The hon. genitlemian procebeledI to discuss this point at some length, but. the noise of tite house pre- vented us from litearing hti% arguments in tite gallerv-. He conceived thiat ahao4a1,nt reasons had been offered to the htottse in the course of the discussion, why it ought not to go into this inquitry, evlen if it hiad the power. He note, said, that if it hati the incli- nation to institute thte inquiry, it had not the powver;- for the act of utnion stipulated that sthe churchi of Ireland shoultd bet presecrved in titesaniie state of security, that it then enjoved untler the Protectioni of thec law ;anti this inquirY went to violaLtf that security in some of its tnost essential poinits. it was of great imiportance tO the people of Irelancl that this question slioultI be immediatel) set at rest. An idlea bad been sedulouisly propagated in that country, that the church establishmuent ought to .be got rid of aS sDoon as possible. Oldl prophiecies oni tite subiect bad been carefully rak. d fromi thse ob-. scurty n wichthe ha ben evelpedforthe putpose of convinc- ingthepeole ha th tie fr hei acompismen t was now necar at ltstd. ite gittioaof his uesionin Prliament would intduce the tosuposetha tiey tadalles itin its walls zealously co-ope-. ratng iththm t i,odu he amereuIlt He therefore'thouzht, thatthesooer he ouseshoed ts esotttion to maintain the church of Irelattd unimipaired, the sooner would it restore peace and tran, quillitv to Irelandl. Mfr. HlUME rost to reply. Ile contended that the hon. menti. her who had accuse-d him of making erroneous statements to, the house upon the faitit of donnnymouis publications, had Itirmself miarIe mnore erronieous statements to the house titan he hatd ever contrived to put togethier. The honi. mnember had made - very long andi a verv able speech, which many memibers snigltt suppose was an an-. awer to tite speeit which lite (Mr. H-Iun.e) had previously delivered hut it was no suchl thing :the lion. miember litati answered a speechl wvhich he had never mnatte, andI lad refutedI statementsi in a pam-. obilet which he (Mr. lumine) hiati never seen. (" Hear," and a laugh.) - In the course of the debate be had been frt'quently accused of exaggerating; btt lie had not found that any ttore tlitan thiree of htis statements liad beell seriously contradicted fromn any quatrter. Thec first contradliction whiceh he had recefved was as to the atnoustt of tite chturchtestablishment. Thattamoun.t he had taken,rtot'r~om ny -nano-. nvyotnos nublicatitit, but from ilr. Wake!field's "StatisticlISuirvey of lIreland ;"' anti if the hon. tnember would compareit wilth the amount given in thie Clerical Register, a_ work whiich hadl somethiing ofatt of- ticial character, hie would findl it to he correct even to a uinit. (Hear, hear.) The next contradiction whichi he lhad receivedi regarded the patronagC Of the ITio.l1 ebsITrII andl upon that point the honouirable, memiber said that la~ (Mr. liume) must httve nuistaken thea parhibhes for benefices. Now he hiad, stated the benefices in the hattdls of theo bishops to be about 1,301. Titat account lie hadl taheii upon )hit. Wakefield's authority, wlto lhad extractedI it frotn a Memoiar of Dr. Bteaufort. The bonourable miemiber, in proof' of his assertions, had said ttitat titere weic only 20 benefices in the countv of Duiblin. Now the last return, presented to the house proved, that ini that countr-- titere were 209 parishies, and 14.1 benefice.'. (Hear, licar.) H' e titerefore left tite house to dlecidte whiether he had tnade his; 2sserlion,% fin tlte faithi of anonyrntous statemettts, or whlethier he badl tnade them fromi official documents,which the liton. miember Iitniself had neglectedI toconsuilt. (lhear.) Hietrustedthaat ieliad alreadyszaid enough tocon-. vince the hottse that no suifficlient anstver lhad bee'n given to his state- ttents. I t tvas easy to say thiat they were exaggerations, or to add that. thev were mad-ce t~r tite purposes ofspoliatiott ; but lie maintained that lie hlad alreaty showni them to be no exaggerattons, and hie appealetl to the w.trds of hiis resolittion to convince the house tihat spoliation was not hiis obJect. ( Hear. litear.) A -I titat lite wished the itouse to tin was.to inquire. He itad beein ea-ndid enouigh to state wvhat his o,wn o,pinions w-ere upon tite subject ; lite had not called upon the hos to adlopt themn hle had sitiirly offecreti tliteti to tts tiottce, and had left thient to jitdg- of' the Propriety of thie inqutiry uipon its own cleatr and delintte tterits. (Hesr.) The tliirdi point on whtich the htenouratele tietmber had cottradicted his statetments, relatedi to the non-residence oif the Irish benieficedI cle-ey. The honourable mem- ber had contradictetd thcto upor, the fa-ith of privatte information teltich lite stated ii-irself to hiave recrntly received from a person well acquainted avithl 'he subject. Now lite thougltt that thie honour-. aLble mnember had no righit to set up his private iufortnation as stupc~or to titat which wves founded oni the last efficial documents iresernted to that houtse. (Hear, hear.) The bonourable gentlenian liad said. whiat a nser4i statement ot ther fact eas- sufficient to di'- prove-niamely, that in the whonle cliturcit ot' Ireland there were not more titan 20 or 30 absentees. ( Hear.) Nowv, by an abstract of' the retcrtils relating to the residency of the clergy in Irelaind for the yogAI 1820, he would show tlhat thtere were toore titan 30O non-residen t cite. cyimen in one diocess. (Hear, hear, aniti cries of "riead.") Out of' 1,289 clergymen, he found the're were ouly 758 res-idcttts; that theta wvere several who by faculties were only piartially resident ; and that there were 243 non-resitlent, by facuiltiesanod other causes, which'it was not niecessarv to enutmerate at length. (Louid cries of "1Hear.") He did not know where the litonourable nieniber lbath been lately; but to a certainity lite could not have been much in that hiouse, or he %voulcl litave kiiowmt that tht. right hon. secretary had broughit in a bill to en., force the residence of the clergy, in Ireland. Now,' how did the hun, miemiber reconicile the introdluction of that bill with the smallnttmber of absentees wbiclt he had stated ? If there had t-tot been miore titan 20 or 30 ciergymert absent fromn theirlivings., would anv child believe that tite right henourable secretary would have formiallv introduced a bill into Parliamnent. to rentedy thie evil occasioned by their ton-resi- dence ? (Hear.) "1 If I had tiot facts to siupport tue in miy asser- tions," continuedt the honotsrahle meniber, andl if I were not able to corroborate tho3se facts by the concurrent testitnony, of' official do-. Futlnents, I migh-t be told that I SLootd uotti nty, head insteadi of stand-. log upon niy heels; and nuigltt be ritliculed as fuicredulous. because I could not give credit to so preposterous a statemient." (A laugh, and cries of "H Jear.") One word with regard to the sacretiness of' church property. The honourable nuember had said, that he wouldI not emnbark in the same vessel witlit himr on this question, lest., after lie lbad once got out to sea, lite sltould findi it impossible to tttr'n back, andi regain the terra fir-su of honour sana right principle. For his owvn part, lie miust confess that he (1r. Hume) was not overproud of such cotuipanyas thiehonourable miember's. (hlear, and alauqh.) H-e would likewise add, that the inan who s-aidtl tht the welfare ol tbo Catholic population of England was dear to his heart, and c-ould 3yetre-. fuise to entertain any mieasure that wwascalculated to promote that wecl-. fare wa a an n wose ontanyhe Mr.Humne) would not willingly sail (Lud heeingfro th (ipostio.) The hon. mnember bian uskd wethr her wa an tjifrene etween the sacredness of chtrchproert an prvat prpery.He (Mr. Hums) replied that ther wa a geatdiffrene. Fr istace, an intdividual had a right 'to devis hspoetbywlafter hs death. Had lthe holder of- chiurcit prpet ayscrih? If an indlivitlual diedl withouit a will, hisscesr,wehrte were his chiildren or Itis next of kin,wer ktw,adt hmte law wettld transfer Itis.property. XVas suchl tlte case witlt regartd to the chiurcit ? liras there anyv per- son kndniw or recognized as thie success-or to ttite incumbent of-s be, nefice ? or would tite las' give it as mnatter of rigltt to any particular individlual ? No such thtin,g. In all the piropositions which he bad made on this subject itt hadf carefullyr abstained from medd(ling witli existing interests ; atnd theref'ore, as nobody could be injured by his pirospectiVe Tegulariotnt, where was the injury of attemptinig to regu- late curch ropery? 'rThoun. membe ha ie tas his opiniorn thatcbttcb ropety tugh notto e sujectd t pariamntary its-. terft-enee.What,oweverwas teopiion ofa manwito asalittle moreresecte tIan te hn. mmbe evr badi been or wotitld be-he mean thelat Mr.Oratan?(Her, bar,and a laugh.) That g-reatt antiacut manhad aid uch ttetttonto this suhiject, jandl in a speech which he nade in 1771, in refutation of argumnessiutilar to tihose which ltad been urged by the hotiourable member this even- ing-a fact, bv the by, whiclh did not speak much for his talent and ingenuity (hear, hear, and a laugh)-hadl observed, that chorch property was a public fundl for the paynue;it of those public officers evhto were employed to maintain reltgion.; and that as such a futtd, it u-as liable to be controlledanitd regulated by Parliament for the in- terest of that religion,i and- also for the national benefit. He consi- deretd tdis opinion of Alr. Grattan to be a complete balatnce, to sav the least of it, to the opinion whicelh te honourable member liad stated with so much loudness and vehemence that evening. Air. Hume then contende4 thit heltad not overstated the antoutit of the ciurcl) propertyin Ircland, and &t6ceeded tumaintain htis argulmientby reference to several ofcial retturi's, of which some hadbeen very renent- lyvi.rnished fe the house,atndd6f Nohich othets were, he could anotdeny it, rather antiquated, theuygls he liad yet to learn that they,.*ere on. that account undeserving of credit. He trusted that before the house entered upon- this discussion again, gentlemea xfoidd place their information in an official shap~ei-on ihe-table of the heuse, and would refrain fromn making charges'-of exaggeration agaitnst their opponents, which, when challengel tensake good, they knewthe- coulti not substantiate. (EHear, bear.) -He again repeated, that all he wantea to obtain was inquiry into the stat of ecclesiastical property in Ireland, tatd that he was nost- adverse to. any measure which savoured of r,bhrtv-or confiscation. The 'hon. gentleman then sat dswwn amid loud ciisering. Tao: Itouse rtuen ttividtd, when the nurmbers were- For Slip motion 7. . 79 Against it . .. . 152 Majority *73 The other 6rders of tfe dav wer then disposed os a d the hrmse adjourned at IUALT-PAST TwO O'CLOC1;. 140TJSP, O'F Xf.- 0