House Of Commons, Friday,...
The Times, 1824-04-10T00:00:00

DIlr. Scrgqeant (NSLOW gav,e noti u,-t-ha'tmmediately after tho cormmencement of. the next gession of Parliament, he would nmove fer leave to bring in r bill to repeal the usury laws. (hear.) M r. Il SUMNER pre-sented a Petitioll from the inhab6itants Of 1~;rnlirn, praying-for the abolition of negro slavery in the colonies. Mr. TREf1AYNE prtsented a similar petition froim the inbab. tants of Abe avenny.I i r. LAMt TON presentedl a petition ftom the artisans of Dar|. inlton pgaitinst the com enbineation JaWs.I Zimlarpeitinswere presented, by.. Mlr.E?..ICE from) thle jotir. nerymen'printers of Dublin- andl by Mr. RaHotrsro, from the journeymen bookbindcetsof London -sg WVestmiuster. LAWV. OF LIBEL. Mlr. HOBIIOUShi presented, a petition from-'cerWisi inhabitantst of' Wesmiter,compiuipng of -the power of commnittal for libel beote trial, whichi had beex ercrised-by amagistrate in the ease of Mr. Gaythorne- Butt. The hon. member iaid'that the power of committing before trial in cases of libel was firsit given to magixtrates by a bill which was introduced in 110, as an-amiendmvent to the re- venue lws. By that bill authority was given tomagis.trates tocorn- -Init-individuals to prison who were aectised of libel -by thbeFAtt6rney- General, unless they could obtain bail. Thiis bill Pased thirought the housein four days withoat observation, doubtlests becAuse no. body sutpposed that -a measure, whlich profeosed to relate only to 'thle amendment of thie revemu'e laws could contain such an importatilt provision respecting "aes of libel. The bill went utto the Lords, it happened there that a very acute man, and one wo h ad the goodl of lils fellow-subjects sincerely at heart,-hie meanit thie late Lord Stanhope,-looked into the bill, and findling in it the clause conferring the powers to which lie lhad adverted, lie drew the attention of the House of Peersi to the subj'ect. I Iuiry wasl made as to who hail introduced the bill into the Hlouse of Um menun but no person could be found to acknowlege it. The bill was defetiAed b$ thte Lord Chancellor and the other usual defenders Of such Saort of things; and it was opposed by Lordl Holland and othier noble lards whio always took an active pant in all that regarded the liberty of' the suibject. Tn lookitng over the dlebates of- that period, hehlaa foundI that the L-ordi Chaihcehlorhadsald thattlhe bill wouldi beavery good one if it Teceiveduome amendments, tbereby adlmitting that it contained somnedefecls. The bill, howevel,passed through thie omittee withtout anv afntitlument. In 1815, the nver-to-be.forgotten circular of 1,6rd Sidimootht appeared, whichi inomdmgstrates that the act of 11806 en-Apowered themn to corn. itprosto prison- in defaulTt of bail whio should be accused upontheathof a~ny inidividual of hiaving publishied what he conceived tbe a e lie. That was a subject wh-ch he intended on some futur ocsntobring under 'the considerationl of the house. He hdscrined that upwards oft 50 persons had been comsiitted to pri~son bef6re trial uLpon charges of libel of whomi not more thian one hafbad been mrinvicted. (Hear.) lie would not enter into the case of AMr. BAtt, because it had already been fully discuissed; but the petitioners prayed that the house wouldt take an eatrly opportunity afre-considering the iniquitous law under which he wvas puinisheA. AMinisters could do nothinie better calctilated to please thte people of England thian in these halcyon days to weed the Statute Book of the evils which had crepL into It. AIr.JONBS presented apetition fromithe inhiabitants of Mlilford, pirayn fo the abolition of negro slavely. irRYGpresented a petui on from the overseers and inhabi. tants of Clerkenwll rain r the repeal of the assessed taxes ; and another fromi the- samie parties, praying for the abolitioni of negro slavery. Air.EL LSONpresented a petition from the occupiers of land int o unty oNohubrad,praying for the repeal of the Mir. CUR VEN presented a petition from the licensed victuallets ofthie town of Penrith,against exciselicences. I Mlr. PRENDERGAST presented a petitiob FM~m eertain mern. berm of Freemasons' Societies in the county Of, Connaugkht, p'raying that they might be placed upon the sinme footing as their brethiren in England. AGRICULTU1tAL NORSE TAX. Mtr. DENISON presenteai a petition from certain market- gardeners at flaftersea~ complaining that the surveyor of' their dis- trict had assessed them for horses which oaght to come under the description of horses employed fur agriculture, and should, on that account, be exempt from taxation. Lord ALTIIO RP thought that thie horse-. employed by gar- denergs hould not betaxed, Ilfthe hon. member wished toas.k him for any particular explanation of the law as applicable to this sub- ject, he would be ready to answer him. .Mr. DENISOiN s2id, that all he dlesired to know was, whether market-gardeners were.liable topsaythis tax, or not. They employed horsessolely in carryingz tomarket the produice of their own gardesr. The CHIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he hOdw gerfectly unclerstood the question, and was ready to replyk, that if a hor-se was partly employed in agriculture, anpa rty in trade by the owner, then he woulcd be exempt according to thu .cact oflast year. If solely employed in bringing to market, then that act olid not confer the exemption. Mll. EJJLICE asked, whether a horse employed in carrying manute for a inarket4garddaer, and afterwards employed in bringing the produce of that gatdeni to market, was or was not exempt from the tax ? The CHAN4CELLOR of the EXCHIEQUER saia that such a horse vwas certainly exempt. *Mr. BRIGHT said, that when appeals ,Vere made from the com. miestonerq to the higher authorities, the latter affirmned or negatived what had been previously done withouit stating reasons. It wouild be better, he thought, to have mnore explanatory decisionis. In ans'wer to-a question from Air. DENsso-r The CI-IANCELLOR of the EXChfEQuJER staid, that he could say nothing of the particular case of these petitioners;~ for he knew not how the law applied to their specific question, being igno- rant of the facts. Mlr. HOBHOUSE said,tbat when the agricultural horse-tax was first laid on, an additionatl number of surveyors and collectors were put in cempnission. Had aLny reduction of that number taken place since the tax was diminished ? The CffANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER really did not know; but he had no doubt, that if new employments were occa. sined by the tax, thecy must hiave been redteced when it was dis- pensed with. Mr. ROB HOUSE had he*Ar that the contrary was the fact. The petition was laia on the table. FRENCH KID-GLOVES. AMr. BENNET presented a petition, to whiceh he callda the particular attention of the right honourable gentleman oppo'site. it was from Win. Harrisson, a manufacturer of kid gloves,who had sustained, so far back as the year 1821, a seizure of gl6ves vThichs he had manufactured at home, from the mnaterial which he had procured from France. It waw. a miatter of notoriety' that the French kidi gloves were superior to the English ~ they were finer, the leather being free from the impolitic ta?tation to which the British dresser was subject. By the stoperior manufacture of Mr. Harrisson, he excited the niimositfv of rival traders who didanot im- Port the French material, and they insinuated that the ar- ticle whitch he sold was not made at hoin6, but was coaR. trabauad. A long correspondence erbsded upon the seizre be- tween the petitioner, the treasury', and the customs, and curious enough, the vera witnesses who were called uipon tn decide die quest- tion whether e mnanufacture was legal &' contraband, althoug the clearest proof was tendered of the former, were the parties who wre connected with giving the Original information that led to the seisuxre. He was sure th-at thle Chancellor of the Exchequer, who'se liberal views hacd induced him to depart from the system of his pre~- decessors, woald not tolerate this sort of opposition to a useful imv. prnvernent in the manufactures of the country. The CHTANCELLOR of thie EXCHEQUER said thlat he ~Was entirely ignoranlt of the petitioner'a case, and had no recollection of any decision having been formned ujin it 'at 'the Treasury. But the poecution to which the hon. gent. refetred was carried on by par- ti.rswho. were independentof theTreatury,and who thoughtthemselves injured by the introduction 6f whiat they seemed an illicit article. H e was no advocate forxontinuinga system ofimpolitic prohibitions, and many of tciose in existence he wislhed to see repealed. If, how- ever, this individual. had been prosecuted for introducing contrabandl articles, and the seizure sustained upon trial in the Court of Exehe- quer,then he (the Chiancellor of the Eiclhequer). was bound to assumec that the verdict proniounced by a competent tribunal, after the party hadl a fuill opportunity of being heard, was a proper one. Sir S. IV RII),EV as aniousto ask a quiestion on the sub. jectof xcheuerproscutons.Hadthe jury-tees in the Court of Excequr ben lteed ithn te lstthree or four years ? He un- dersnoe tht th spcia jOy.fes dffeedaccordinq to rIse fact, whehe th vrdct asfo oragint heCrown. Che inlryKot two uinas,if heyfoun fo th Crwn;andonly one, if contrary.. Mr. EELrepled,tha it as ntirly on~away withi. SIr. HUME saidta an uxn ar dstintinwas- drawn betwreen the rempunerationfo special n o omt jutrors.The former were, srl,from thieir sttion iieetral to perform the office gra.. =utomly, than tha class fowhcteohers were taken. Mlr. PEEL said tat th subeCt was a complicated one, and hiad better be discussed we a specific oppiortunity urose of entering folly into its consideratio. After a few words from iMr. Alderman C. SsAtTvH and Ali. tE.sr- NET, the petition was laid on the table. On the motion that it be printed, AMr. HE8RRIES said that he could exculpate the Cormmissioners of Customs from- any blism-e re4, specting 5Mr. Harrison's petition, for they lhad, step by step, allowed thle petil ioner ever ~Portninity of melting hit dlefentetefore the final conifiscation, whic,0 id-niot take place until the petitioner had ne- glected in thle several stages, to mnake liis defence. Alr. hENNET said', that thle procesks of defetice was perhaps thought like throwing good montey after baa. The petition was orderedI to be printe,~* CUJRR]3NCi'.1N_NBIjr SOUTH! WAiJES. Air. IIENNET moved for an accounit ol'the nuinber and valtue of dollars impiortedi inito New Southl NVajen, in the years 1821, 1822, anid 1823, specifying the price of their purchase, And thie ainorint at which they were issued in New S_ outh ivaies. He underht6oo that there would be no objection to his motion;, but ht was anxrious to take tbis opportuinity of calling the attention GI1 Government to the state of the currency in New South WVales, and the evils which had beets f-elt thlere ; first, from a loc]Al s-hilling pae icuain whe the metallic cuirrency- was scarce ; and 'wren the dotlais did atrrive, they were exposed to a Most injuriouis fldctuating value, Owing to the te-rms 'at which they were isk`fed ; tliev were also "~stuinped," to use the classical langoage of Botany B ', and holes nadle in themn were Plugged, which led to a further andaconsiderable difference of value. In the n'month of Mlay last, the intrinsice valule of dolar as s. d.;the wee pid y (overilmertt at Ss. in their purchses n Boany ay, nd t thearmyand offiCial clerks at 4s., and gai recive bak bythe6-o erMs, in revenue payments, stie,it.wa tie,he hoght tat heGovernment at homeshbould loo tosuc animprtat ~eston s teir colonial currency afeect- .ma i me o viattythe ntersts f th cooit in al thc rsi ngps; it 1xial so vntallY thei interemsts ofteclnssi i h ea tions of their busiliess and expenditure. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ausured the hon. gentleman that the Government had evry' disposition- to re- slate the colonial currency' on the principle of strict ' ~Vith regard to the particular' question he wa4 -aa to admit that the different rates at Which the dollar was tssued'in tie colonies was. often inconsistent with the principles of justice, as welt as com- monsense. He enuld proluise the hon. gent. that the subject hadnot escaped the attention of the colonial branch of the Government, and he hosped bethat some measure would be devised (although he feared eput n operation at some expense) to remedy thc very great inconvenience complained of with respect to the colonial crrency.....he motion was agreed to. MIr. slAavBerEgRCROAIBY presentted,a petition from Calne against STATE OF IRELAND. Sir HENRY PdRNELL said, that when the Secretary for Ire- land lastbrought in the insurrection act, lie promised that if he had occasion to propose its renewal this year, he would precedle the propoall by moving for the apapoinhtmentofa committee. Did the ight onourabie secretary mean to propose the renewal of the in- su tion act; and ifso, did he mean to move for a comrnittee ? Mr. GUIJBRN sid, hat h wasabou to et out for Ireland, nu ton his return would beparehpeared to ive the information re- SALT TAX. Mr. C TERWoEN 8aid that he w ms anxious to ascertain the amount' If the salt-tax paid by-tile agricultural interest, as lie was sorry to mnd, that after the pledge given. by his, Majesty's Govetninent, tI-se ubjet ws t be gai cosideed. Hethen moved for,an~accur it ~~~~~~~~~~Iua purposes f)rom> tTe he' s.~t~he5thofJa uary, 1824, .5tlsViiShf'tg Mr~L~TE~Qud no eposet~emotion, though he- thwsgt Iit U.nnecessary, alter tihe promiise whiichbaa -been eiven by o verlnment relative to the cgpirationl of the salt tax. For-Ais own' part, he was quite c.9nfidcnt, that the Chancellor of tie Exchequer would,-not breqyhe mpact into which--he had entered with -the public.?.. ,r"jAr. ELLiCE presented-s petition from George-Franeiiq,z rectifier 'Of 6piritsicl, Whlteehh e1road, complaining,'of -the m ionopoly en- joyed- by the Enrlisdxiaillllrsin-this ffarket, and praying that the [so. ewouldavsa- sone'rneasure t6allbw raum to be; rectified. He called upon the houtse to giant the prayer of this petition in justice to thfe 1'eml-adfii fintere4t~-whfch, was-noW-suffering; under gre-at (i1.. tress- 4ndeed, he Could not see anyreawon wliy g mnerchant miglht not be permitted to tuirn an4ffctile, ulion whichi he had paid the re- quisite duties, to any use which het ought proper. Theright lion. gent. oppoalte-had already secured to the distillers under thie pro- posedreduction of the Tur duties, a protection oPdM per gallon on Engish spirits-why then, should he grant them a further advan- tage byrnot allowin dite rectification of rum?i All. I.GURN Ymade afew observations, but they were inau- dible in the gallery. Air. lUMIE said, that it was only natural. for the hon. memisief for Covehitry to call upon the ChanceBor of the E~xchequer to pro- teet the interests or the 'Vest India body, anid for the hion. membier tbr 1'lo'rwifh to calltupon him to protect tlitie interests with whicht he was c6nnecte(l. He(51r. Hlume), however, tiouglit it necessary to call up6h'the righit hoti. gentlemiath nOt to protect eithier the Wtest India interest or the- distillers excehisively, bilt io protect against both'a third interest--namely, thiat of the consumers. lie then ei.. tered into ceritain caictilations to show that the consumption of rumh had greatdy diminlished in England, Sodocand, adnd Ireland, and coin- tentded, that ifa simall body of distillers enjoyed, as was now coni- tended,a mionopoly in the English market bringig clien in liOO,000l. ainnually, it Was not fair to the publIc to Allow it to lbe continued to them In lo ngr Mrl. IETLEFORSTERcontended, that the honocirable mem-. ber for Aberdeen was incorrect in the statements which he had made relative t . thie consumption of rum in Ireland. 31r. BRIGHT contenaed, that the Wles~t lindia body had a right to expect that their rumh, which *as enormously taxed, shiould be permitted to undergo rectificatioR in .this country. The.petition was then brought up. On the question that it now be read- hll. ElLbICE took the opportunity, of asking the Chancellor of the BExchequer whien he initended to h ave the repor t on the resolu- tions respecting the rumn duties brougcht uip ? He gave notice, that he would oppose the nieasure founded upon those resolutions in every stage, unless thte rectiflers were allowed to use rum in their stills ini fuiture. He contended, that thie mneasure of the Tight hon. gen. wul gienoelef otle estIniainterest: it was no boon to thatbody onthe ontary,t wuld urnout a delusion to themi, and a wate f m~1e tothepubic.He ondredat the supineness which til Wet Idiaineret ehibtedsitina qestonwhich affected ofteECEQUER begged leave to remind the honourable meniber for-Coventry, that helhad stated last n ight trait the mlost convenient course to take with regard to this measure would he to have it brought up to-night. A bill would then be founded upon it, so that there wouild be three subsequent stages on wvhich it might be discussedt. 'With regard to the supine- ness of the %Ve-4t India interest, he would only say that that matter was no affair of his. That interest, however, had expressed to him their satisfaction with the measure he hiad introduced. He had never represented it as a bo-on to themn: on the con. trary, he had said at the conimencement of the session that he did not introdluce it las a boon to them, but as 'a ching which it was correct to make upon principle. He therefore col not see what right the honourable m-ember for Coventry had to de- signate this measurTe as adelumion upon the WVest India boDy. The honourable member said, that the reduction of the rum duties woruldI do no good, unlessi it were accomnpanied by a permission to let f-ili be-rectified. He (the Chandellor of the Exchequer) hadalways ad. mitted that the ijiestion of tbd distilleries was one ot great dillculty and ompexiy, nvovin vaiou inerets,large capitals, and no iticnsierale orton f rvene. e tereoretrusted that the hous wold ot res himto eguatethe bya hiasty and inconsi- derae masue, frc, wthot dinggoo toany party, might in-. volv thewhol disillry tade n grat cnfuIon le thou g%t that he soulddo ifinte mschif toallparte if he were to bring forward any measuire for the reglaio ofe distilleries be- fore he had seen the practical results aingfothe act which had been passed regarding thiem during th lsseio.If a little more time were allowed him, he thought that he couldI do the public fifty times more good than he could at present. Mir. BERNAL thought that the course which the Chancellor of the Exchiequer had recommiended the house to take with regard to the discussion of this measure, was the most convenient that could be devised. AMr. C. R. ELLIS agred with the heinddrable nyinmber Who had spoken last, that the mnode recommended by the Chancellor of the Exche quer would be the most convenient for discussing the mode of relef which this measure held out to the 'West India interest. At the same time, he could not help observing, that he did not rate thiat relief so low as some honourable gentlemnen who had just been addressing the liouse. The petition was tken read, and ordered to fit printed; Sir G. CLERK presented a petition from the candle-makers of Edinburghn1ptaving for a repeal of the duty on candles. Air. flM 'presented two petitions-one from the journeymen shoemakers of Greenwich and Deptford, and the other from thie cot- ton-weavers of Bury, in Lancashire--against the combination laws. They were referred to the committee on artiisans, along with a simii- lar petition from the weavers of Knaresborough, presented by Air. TiSRnuEy . Lord ALTHORP mioved for a return of the suims of money which had been paid, either by the public,or ini consecjience of grand jrpretnents1for thdi maintenance of the peace in Ireland during theylast erayears, under the peaceprervtoac,heonabs i6t, And the Inish insurrection act.-Notion granted. M1r. JOHRN AIARTIN moved for a return, scatiuig the gross. produceof thestamp-daities on fire insurances from the year 1I= downto he haset prio; aso fr aretrn,statingz the produce of the cam duieson ireinsranra n Lndo, dunriisg the same pe.. SUPPiX.-DUC TiON OF RISH, POOIL-W.EST- .M1f~IsTIt AliBY, &C. The HANF~LLR o theEXCEQUER moved the order of the day for bringing sup thereportof the committee of supply. Onteitem, appropriating 22,0001. for the promotionof te edu- cainof the poorof ireland, being rend, r.HUME rose and saidi, that when this resolution was brought forward a few evenings since, itwas discussedat so late an hour that he had nc.' an opportunity of noticing certain speeches which were delivered on that occasiots. He noW rok~ to enfet his protest against the system which was pursued in the Kildare-street Establishment..=that estabilebliseilt , wbich bid . been so highly praikea by a lefirled gent. opposite (Mr. Ndrth), It the poor of Ire- land, 'who were entirely Romana Catholics, were to bie educated, h6 contended thtat the public money devoted to that object oughit not to be placed in the hands of the Kilugare-street Society. Thiat body were anxious to impart a scriptural education in all their esat- blighments, re ardless of the prejudices of she Roman Catholic po- pulation. If those regloigos pCeJudices did exist in the minds of the Catholicsli ginetil,theyriub prEclildethenirft6imiattendingan7 esats bliAhhmebtsimilartoth iKildaLre-~streetSociety. Tbatp6sitioni wafully borne out by the statemnent of the Catholic bishops themselves. Hei wouldzask thehouse, if those prejudices existed-if they made so strong an impression on thi Catholics, as induiced them inot to send their children to thiose establishments-..ought this grant to be exciii- sivt1v confined so them ? Should not the hiouse take care that the Inoiciy *vaasialaid oist as to enable Cathtolc childlreni to tecelve the 4eniefit-of-eOucatiqn, without htviag the religious feelings of their parents lintertered VWith ? On a former evening he hiad stattd the ojliuiop ottvo Catholic bishops onthiis sulsrect. Heinow held in his hand ihe 6piniqus of aix or seven Catholic bi.1hops, who all stated t'hatLthey were'lesriosusto see thiiCaltholic,populattiossol reland edu- cated, but who were unaknimodus ini thetr disapproval, of the syrssem adoped n-te Iildre-tret etabishent. S'uch was thie opinion of D. lroy Dr Muray Dr Dole,and Dr. Coppinger. If thos iniviual, wo hd eeryopprtuity of forming a just jodgmns dclard tha the rejuice o the ypouth of the country prevntedthemfro appoachng tio'e esttblishttlent.~ ought niot thehoue t. eertitSlf o rmov Te difficulty. and dtvise the means of giving educiation to the great body of th'e Cathiolic po-or, withiout trenciieng on tleir religious feehings? Thelearned member (Mlr. Nortb) had argued; that a scriptural education was calculated to meet and to allay the. prejudices of all parties ; and he ex- pressed. his conviction,. from tils own e,tperiende, thiat Cathiolics and Protestantli i~otdd in thie course of a short timie lie ediucated together. He seemed to consider it absurd to suppose that any dis- pute could arise, as to the use of the Bible with or without niote or comment : but it could not lbe forgotten, that a few years ago, a contest on thiis very, point was carried on t6 a.great extenit in thiis country, 'Ihle Bible societies, at that tnie, did not receive half the sudppOrt they wp iiha daine, becadse olie party insisted thlat thie Scriptures siotild be-usmed without note or comnienti whiile else oilier party -contended -with equal force, that the Bible shouldl be aceomlpnio,4 by bote and comiment. If iucls were thte c.nse lnfti- cZiuntry like- th' .wer reigiou s-animiosity was in a great mcusmure set -at.rest- .4rit were fduind almost imp~ossible to establish a l3chptlha nilemuit-1sisdestferosavue Bell's systeqi2 whilst another adhiered to the siystem of Lantutster-wasi it -surprising that a greater difFeurenceofopinion-should be manifiezi*1 i-In Ireland, where the great bodyv of the popuilation professedI two different cretds,? liaviiig taken an active 'iart in thie establishiment tlJ' e I'sncastefiin 'ei6si efore ibe.nitionel schoblg or those of Un. neIl were set on foot,th coultd speak- with perfect copfidencei as to the difficuilties whilch he had to 6ohltend witli in prcuing ass jpot.- Thig,quetaion was, whether scriptural>education o should o not!lie- ffivcn i Those who. were friendly to Air. Lanceaster's sys. tern,s'aidi -"Eddratidn is *hdt we haive in view; we willteach the chil- dren td readitid *rite- htit we *Iill ;iot -nieddle *ith t heir religious iiiini~n ctati-lied wewil lei~t5 tle. gtuidance of their difteent mnistes.'~The scietyof Qekerswere, gral 0their credt, te chels pposersof lios scholsand noanwo knew Wns Alen oranyofthde jdtiduk who took wluIsddble A par intheeaeblihme~ o feool onthe lfanbeaser plafns coutld suposefOranid5nt hatthe woldintroduce-any book which wvasllkely to injere the morals uf the youngmen. Yet. such was the prejudice.of the Tor,or the high church party, that - scarcely any 8Jupport eOqlA.- ne deuived from them, merely because it was not ,eenied necessary to give the pupils a scriptural, education. After a lapse of 10 years, the animosity which formerly prevailed was greatly reduced, and now schools were established in which both. systems . ere taught with tnuch -advantage. But- when helooked. back to the dificul-ies which existed .When the Lancasterian schools were set on foot, he could not consider that education could be carried, to any exeknt amongst the population of Ireland, if money were voted in support of a svstem which mili- tated against the prejutUces pof the great lodv of the people. He did notmean to object to the. grant. Nothing could be better for the people of, Ireland than to make them sensible of the advantages of education, by raisingthem in thescaleofdvilized life. Heahould, indeed, have no objection to enlarge the grant, in future years, if the report of the commissioners proved that the money expended had been productive of commensuratc benefit. Mr. BUTTERIVORTH iwas of opinion, that to give the poor of Ireland generat instruction without Scriptural educa- tion, woqld -be the -worst and most pernicious thing that could be- done. He had seen a petition from certain Roman Catholics, in which it was asserted, that if the Bible were placed 'without comment in the hands of youth, they might derive impres. sions from it that would have a mischievous effect on their minds. Now, lie would ask, whether the poor of England who had Scrip. tiara knowlede, were lese moral than the poor ot Ireland who had riot? X [ looked upon the assertion to which hle had alluded, is a gross 2ibe}on the word-of Goed. flow could any person assert that the word-of G'od was calculated to prodluce mischiezvous efibects on the minds of south ? olir. HfIUME .did notwlvish the population of Irelanid to be brought uip without religious instruction,. but let not that Instruiction bcter- fert with their rehigiomiut feelings. The Catholics ,aid, "Y You attack our conscientiouss prejushice,anl thus-prevent us from.acceptiih the boon ot education.' 'Ts declarationl was suflicient for his purpose, since it showed that Httlegood could be effected under the Kildare- itreet system. With respect to the sentiments which the hon. mem- ber had quoted, they merely sent to this-"-Such are the doctrines laughtin the Bible, that if read by children of tender- yea, with. ut interpuretation, they may be productdve of misehievon conse- wuences." The Catholics dtid not say that they would not haye the Biible taught, but that they wEould have it taught in their own way. After a few words from l\lr. H.G. BIERNET, blr. BFruTTER- WORTHt, and Air. Aloxcx, the resolution was agreed to; WEISE lI NSTER ABBEY.- On the resolution for grantii ig ,0Ol. for the-purchase-of the Angerstein collectioni of pictures being read - ilr. HUIIE rose, and said he wished to know whether any ar' rangement, with respect to the admission to Veitstinster.Abbey, had beep inade in consequence of what had fallen frorii the fresident of the Board of Control, relative to this subject, on a fomnYr even: ing? He understood the rigiht ion. gentliman to say, that #fithin hiN own recollection, the mode of admission was extremely easy, and the expense very mtoderate; and he (Mlr. lume) had been led to believe, that some negotiation was set on foot, between Govern- ment and-those conneeted with the Abbey to remove tie difficultv of procuring adnmissionl whiich now existed. The public were, in fact, excluded from seeing monumnents wlhich were erected at theit expense. They were the propetty of tfie public, and certainly were not plaeel in the Abbey us be concealed fronit public view. (i ar.) He was anxious to learn swht measure ligd been or couild lbe desed4 to give the public fuU and free admission to those monuments ? Wtrhen. 61i.00. was votec-for one establisb- ment, and part of a sum of 30u,0001. was demanded for another, mi- nisters should look about them, and feel the nece6sity of preventing the public front being excluded from the -sight of that whichhad cost them such largesums of money. If the charge no,w made for ad- mnission were-an abuse it ought to be rectified; if on tie other hand, tihe Dean and chapter had a right to exact those feeg, the public ought to buy their interest. There was an outcry on every side against the Dean anti Chapter, for taking money to which they were rnotentitled. Ile wished to see all cause for suen an outcry re- moved. llrhilst, however, the present system contbiued, the people would talk; and tierefore he called on Alinisters to make sucil an arrangement as would secure to the pblic tilrose advantages to wliieh lie conceived they were entitled, and thus put an end to all ground of compl. int in future. Colonel BEAUAIONT (we believe) said he approvedof thegr.t Df 60,0001. for the purchase of 511 r. Angerstein's pictures, but he did not think the situation in which they were to be placed was a good Dne. It would be much better if a more central situation were fixed on, where an edifice fit to receive them could be erected. The lease of Alarlborough-house would expire in four or five years: that would be an admirable situation for the puirpose,and it afforded ample space for the occasion. He trusted that no renewal of the lease wouid be granted until Ministers had considered this suggestion. Mr. IV. WYNN certainly rememibered the time when the great, est Part of Westminster Abbey was open to the public. At the time to which he alluded a very small number of monuinens were shut up4 and even those were alowed to be seen for lid' ( Hear.) He believed that every part of thie Abbey was now closed, atrd that 2s. were charged for admission. (Hear.) He was not himself, however, aware of any redress on thlat subject. He regretted that the Abbey was shut up: but if the Dean and Chapter had a right over their churchl, which authorized them to make those charges,-lie knew not how the Executive Government could interfere. Alr. BANKES said a few words, which were inaudible in the gaUery. Sir .J. VROTTESLEY said, that fornerly what was called Poet's Corner" was open to all. (Hear.) That passage formed a very greatconvenience to those who had to pass through one part of Westminster. It brought them at once from the Cloisters to this part of the town. The whole space between the organ and the westem door was open; and the north aislc was also open. The only part of Westminster Abbey to which individuals could not go without paving an attendant was Henry ti-e Seventh's Chapel, and that could be seen for the small suRn of 6d. He begged leave, as lie was on the subject, to state what had recently occurred to himself. He went through the Cloisters towards the Abbey, and there met the verger, who asked," lVhere are you going??" He answered "lnto the Abbey." " Then " said the Verger, " You must pay 2s." He (Sir John 'W"rottesiey) then observed, that, as service was going on, he supposed he might enter the church. " Oli yes Sir," was the reply. He then went to the door of the choir, but the verger, who seemed to know his motive, (for he really had not entered for the purpose of going to church), did not lose siglht of him. He turned round to go out of the door at Poet's Corner, when the verger im- mediately said, " You are not come here for the purpose of prayers, but to make this a passage; therefore yon must go out by the door at which you came in." (Lauglhter). He looked upon this system of exacting fees as a paltry and scandalous extortion. (Hcar,hear.) The whole of those fees were let by the Dean and Chapter, for their own profit. That building which had been the pride and glory of this country fbr centuries-for, lie believed, a thousand vars_could aot now be viewed without a pecuniary consideration. Dean and Chapter dealtoutpernmission to go through this vene- rable building at so much per head, to add a little paltry sum to Eheir salaries. (Hear.) Mir. H. G. B EN.N ET would be glad to know whether it was aot possible to remove those monuments from the Abbey. (A Laugh.) ite thought it would be a very fit subject for inquiry in a committee, whether those monuments, which the scandalous extor- tion of the lergy of this metropolisprevented the public from seeing, night ROt be removed. Hte would vote for their removal. Let a buiding be erected for them; Iet them be put up in any place where they could be seen. Titey ought to he rescued from tlhe bands of that scandalous set of money.dealers who made a profit of thenm. : Hear.) Mlr. MONCKC entertained some doubt whether the Dean and Chapter had any right to exclude the public. Up to the time of the reformation, ourchurches were open all day to allov the people to tay their prayers, as was the case all over the Continentat present. Nothing, he conceived, could be more shameful than for those per- sons to turn these public monuments to their own privateadvantage. lt was a scandalous distinction between this and other countries. An honourable MIEmBER, whose name we could not, discover, wished to caU the attention of the house to what appeared to be the 5rigin of taking money at Westminster-Abbey. In proportion as the public were attracted to that place, it became necessary for the Dean nd Chiapter to enlarge the expense, for the purpose of having per- sons to attend on the public and to protect the monuments from in. jury: for, unfortunately, it rarely happened, when monuments of irt were generally exposed, that they did not receive wanton injury From thoughtless or evil-disposed persons. The resolution was then agreed to. TURKEY COMPANY. On the resolution for granting a sum of money for foreign consuls lein eaUSE inquired whether the right hots. secretary (Mr. Can- iing),or his Majesty's Govcrnment,had turned their attention to the dituation ofthe'TurkeyCompany.When that company was established here mighthavebeenreasons forthe proceeding;but the queston was, cheter any reasons could be advanced for continuing it. He knew .t might h defended on the ground of chartered rights: but char- ered rights ought alrays to he given with reference to the pablic wood; and so lxong as they produced public good, they should be :ontinued. But if this establishment inflicted evils on commerce, ngtead ofettfecting benefit, he thoueht no delay should take place in :harting the whole sras one peculiarity system vhich was nt ound elswhere-he meant the right which they mxercised of appointing their consuls. That authority was usually rested in the Secretafy of State. But here, if an individual com- ,lained against one of their consuls, either fbr an improper interfer- net, or for refusing to interfere, he could not get relief from the Se- :retary of State, lie must apply to this body. Mfr. CANNING (as we understoodJ expressed himself fully ensible of the tisauvantages 6f the present system, and intimated hat the earliest opportunity would be taken to improve it. 'rhe other resolutions were agreed to without observation. BUILDING OF CI-URCHES ACTS. TifeCHANCELLOR of the EXCCHEQUER moved the order ,f the day for the house resolving itself into a committee on the hbeve acts. The SPEAKER having left the chair, The CHANCELLOR of tBe EXCHEQUER said, he did not enow that he should have thoughitit necessary to have troubled the oynmitfee with mnany observations on this stubject, but for some re. narks which had been made at the time when he first acquainted he house that it was the intention of Governlment to propose a grant 'or the purposof buildingadditional churches. IHeconfessed thathe van agood dealsurprised at the opposition which was then marifested oa3rdsthatmotion, and noless surprised at the reason assigned odr that opposition. He certainly should have expected that any in- lividuat who did not dissent fron the doctrines of the church of England would have supported lis proposition. On the other hand, slthough he couitfi not expect individuals who were indifferent to hose doctrines, or,i/dlferent to the doctrines of any Christian- ect, to support hiS motion, lie certainly had no right to aNticipate hnir opposition. All that be almed at was to enable those who itlieved in .the doctrines of the church of ltngland, to attend to he cereimonies of the religious faith theyvprofessed. He should. have hloughtlthatahlperssonms who prof essed Christianity at alh,lvorildatleast save admitted that a propositon to enable individuals, whoat present . ad no ooportunity of attedding the ch urch to whicl they belonged,to perfonn theirreli ious duties,wa vnet onl;y sot objectionable, but was, or,4ia facie, goo in itself. He felt very great astonishment at the ivjSecionswhiclm were raised against the plan, and more particularly it one of theori, which he had supposed could not enter the imagina- tion of any hnrdan being-namely, that the proposition to belid ad. litionalchurches was sonething almost approaching to blasphemy. (Hear.) He knew that, in leal minds, there wac great difference of vpinion with respect to the deflnition of the word "blasphemy,. and he would not undertake to saY what its precise meaning was; but certainly it was the first time he had ever heard it sa;d, that the auempt to give rcligious knowledge to any portion f the people. approached tof blasphemy. (Hear.) He knew tlat that observation was coupled,with this statemecttthat the propesr- tion for building churches ought to be united with the repe of some paticular taxes. If those taxes bore heavily on the commu- niti t might be cited a8 a proof of inconsistency mn the individual, Lhat he ?efused to consent to-their repeal at the same moment tunate proposed to build churches. It siight even be argeed, thatitprovelI something of hypocrisy in the individual; but such a reaoning! rould not form a ground of objection against -the propoition itself. No one could deny, looktng to the situation. in which he, as proposer of .the plan, was placed, but that two objects vere placed before bim first, togivetothe peoplean opportunity of attending the serviceof the church; and second, to remove particu- lar grievances. It might he desirable that those grievances should be first semoved ; but it could not be denied that practical good would be effected by the'course which haul been- taken; and there was 'nothing connected with that course which could pos- sibly call 'for such a remark 'as that to which he alluded. If this nrgumentwere'tenable, it would go to deprive the country of an established church altogether; . for no established churth could be mltintained othervise than-at the public expense. Thedissenters paid their tithe and their parochial church rate, whether they went tochurch or no* and if we were to have any established church, that chutch must take contributions-it: had no choice-from the dis. senter as well as its own members. The.object to beaccomplished- the principle upon wlhich the house must proceed-was not the specific rightof the individual, but the general advantage of the com- munity. He thought it inmpossible that the general advantage of a regular attendance at places of worship could be denied; and how could the people enjoy this advantage unless churches were built to accommodate themn? The objection as to contribut:on of strangers, too, was novel; and, indeed, the same principle would go to -put a stop to half the proceedings of the house. Parliament had, last year, 'voted a sum for tlb education of Roman Catholics in Ireland. 'the Englishl Protestants certainly gained notlhing by this grant; but it had not been resisted. Again, 50,0001. had been voted for Presbyterian churches and, ministers in the Highlands; and no one had complained nf that tax upon the members of the established church. He really thought there,was nothing whatever ill eitherof the two objections to which he had alluded; but he must say a few words as to the awsrtion that the grant demanded was notnecssary. The Tion. member tar WVeattohster would &dmit, that if a n%ez.s sity for the cliurches ask-ed could be made outt, it would be impera- tiveupon Government to administer to that necessity, a far as po5.- sible. Mlr. HOBHOUSE,-To find some mode of administermn~ to it. The CHANCEI*LOR of ibe -MXICIIEQUJER.-zlyAJ !. lie knew of no mode except applying.to the public 'purse. - bi4'tile fituess of meeting th ecse en ranted, he 'cane to proVVthe fact; anid it wou d be founid upon iInspetting the ))apers ~ttbreej th house, thlat in 170 places,. conitainingK 3,5'4tl.00l inhabiiniiis,'Otlice was only churchi accommodation for 500,1100 Persons, riiiicii w ile 'About one individual ini seveni, upoih tetl'fhlfplu6. admitted that there must be deductiolis fronm tisitt 7etiate of, 3.548,000 souls ; some would be Sick, of. old, or Inifants, Aaii toy Ffersons niot attending church, but stily. thiei amiount of _ , conameodatien fell -far below what was- required.' A'n'rlgtd -ljwas it thtat left it so below ? Whby, the -increase in #opulation -e. sunie parishes,, to ai degree. whichi, as regarde d yibviding p~~~o Worship, entirely overpDwered all itieii means. -I't-wes utterly 1in1,ib24 "ni he house wauld find it go, to leave mtatters in such a. aiutos Here were peope miost anxious to go to elIrch,A and who, so fnrgothe means were Wihiin their reach, had tT6fi6'so',an& still did so, withitrrflnite benefit and consolation; and it Wvilipos, sible to deny them thie extenided use of that privilege which they. felt; to besuch ablessing. But hanourahie gentlemen said-" 5M0~jW1. willnotaccomplish this." Whly, eertainly,it wouldnot,do a,bll;bu it would 'do something. It appeared, upon reference to the report of tshe comnis.-Ioaerstfor building churches,ithattihe 1,000,0Ool.31- read7 scranted haddione incalcuilable good. It had been siupposed that it might bssild perbipa* lS5 churchT~ 1and find chnrchi accommodation for 145,MDP0piople', arnd instead otitiat, itbatksafficed VI build 98 example et by ariaint fmil excitsel'thezeal and time emulation of theprofesoes ofthbe ,11 fire and we hgd alreatdy hadmor thn 20,001 susteibad be usding placea of worship, and furte suba ti tons unigfr be excte Other' partiesi cdtme tende forthe nutiity f the pressnt'gr,l' lnd~dtat h e verumient *ss buildn cliurclies-iritd whk1th'o,'oni jWOqU go'- wbes6 th'ey were fminised bt this was a heav jniisk inee frs. cording to theypaperbeoetehuealthne ircew1rhd been built sofa,wratnedbovroigcgrain.T't right hon. gcne. thnroeed redaartyorprt rempet.t lng th-e 8tate of thoeprae nwil e rcin a tAserl plc.At Blackun i anahr,hlftep rsi the niew churh were let, and thie remainder wudb e. u o u ra conVenyth(!e of thle " free seats." This conytnience Ie thCar. cellor of'the,E?cbequer) was well pleased to be inforeofth " free aeata" were thue main point of conaisderation ; he 'ih0 h lettingof pews to gor ouly so far as might pay the clergyaadth CUrrent expenomas of the building. At Black burn, the,th huc was well tilled, andI the peoljde were all poor: wouldithebabl to say that they shiould not hiave the advantage of aplace of worship unleessso far as they were able to pay for it? The church atlBlak.. bdtrn was well filled, and the congregatiorn was steadily increasing; annd the, clergynman lhad seen it so full thtat it would not hold any more. From Trinity New Chapel at Bath, the accountis' wvee equall'y satis. factory. From Ilawarden, 'in 'Wales, no lens- soo. Fromi Birming. hami, gratifying in tue highest degree. At Nottinghamf ther new~ tlsutrch biad absoluitely been takeni by storm ; it was very much at. tended by females in an evenilng. In a wildter part of the' country, at Ringw/oenl, in Hampshire, (nsong ttpopuilation consisting. almost entirely of smutgglers and poachers, tIme endeavours of an exeelkeni clergyman and 'fiis highly.accomplislsed wife' had produced re. suits whichi could scarcely hiave. been hoped for. Now, unoder such eircumstances, could 'it he conterided that' the 1,000,OOOL already given was filbestowed?' He thought that no sum o1 mioney ever granted by the house had been bestowed with more advantage; and it -would be a strange cor.cdusion, ak i havint given 1,000,0001. under circumstances when we were cod4ratively poor, to say that we should refus,.e W0.0001. more, at a~ time when we couild comparaiilvely so' much better affbrd it. TJ.he right hon. gen- tleman, after observing tlmat hie. asked: only in his volte for 500,0001. but thiat, upon principle, if the country were in a state to atlbrin more,be shoald by no meanstSunk it misapplied, sat dower by rov. In "That his Majetsty should' be authonized to direct Etchequem bill 'to the amiount of 500,0001. to be paid to the comminissioner* fom prometing the building of churches', undler the regulations ned re. strictions of all acts passed, or to he passed, for that purosm." Mlr. H01MIOUSE was as well convinced as -416eright hon. fhe Chancellor of the lExchequer of the importance- of the.subject before the house-, and if itappeared that there was really, any deficiency existing in the means of religious nstructio-a far the, country. be thought there could hardly be agentlemnan in the'housevbho would not at once use his endeaviturs t.towirds supplyiagft-~ A's an irnii. vidual. he fel t that he wasgoing to proceed upon a 1ver delicate line .of grouind; but, while he denied stpeakinig the 3eutitoensa eithier of dissenters or any other specific class of iiidividuais~' he felt that he obeyed the wish6a of his constituients,, and of the country at large, iopoing the grant. The right Ion. Chancellor of the 1xchcquiez reere to tIse million granted when wve had been Poor, and spoke of tlse riches of the country ait the presenit moment, Hie (AMr. Hob. house) wouild be well pleased to see some of the riches that thie riglit hon. gentIeman spoke of. The right hon. gentleman, indeed, bad appeared surprised at the surplus whichi he disccDvered in the begin- ming of the session; but the cieuntry, tipon the whole, had not been so miuchi Surprised ; and the people were hailf of 'e6ipinlon', that, if left to themselves, they could ver-y well find how to emiploy the sum now asked of 5130,0001., and the whole of' the S~urplus, indeed, whichi was to accrue for the period of the four years'next succeeeding. If religous instruction seemed to him to be one of thcq ilmLimediate wants of the nation )ie would not oppose the vote be-fore.the house; but he did not thinl that the want, though asserted,?had' by any means been made our. lie trustted to the canldour of hon. gentlemen for not mistinterpreting him; but, even supposing, the, deficiency charged really to exist, he thought there were otfiii;inans bauidts the public preaailable for nmeeting it. Hle,dia'noe advocate any suddel or sw=eepi~ng descriptioni of meaLsure; but he tAomh thai thee wre osessonsinthe hands of the church Whichi mighit by degeesbeappie toth pupoe i qestion. The gran's to Scot- lan, wichtherigt ba, he hanelor of the Exchquet-badl re. fered o,wasbyno eas acas i pont Threwas non benehiccc sar,~~ t6 be incurred. . . 't th vote in question haa been, gieh otePebtra hrh Mr. !iON HOUSE saiA that -still they ha olesLomeans lik-e those held by our church of England.Honr'e-etee spoke of the measure before the house as being~ls ~rb h voice of the country: why there was not a singeptt'o.uo h subject upon the table. And surely it would nth setdta there bad been any deterioration of mnoral or religions feeln in the country? On the cotar,he beleived that such feelingha of late years (hear, hear, froe the Mlinisterial bench) very much increascrd. Honourable gentlemen cried "hlear, hear," as thoukhbhe had said some thing wh ich iold eagaist his ow n argument: but surely tltty didl not suppose that by "' late years" he meanit the years muerely since the grant of.1817? He spolkeof the time from the periodof tlt F'rench revolution up to the present; and lie did think, that withit that period the country sitood mIorally improved. Tos.lma.rmnediatt question, however, before the house. BHe ~was told thtattherewern' upon -the table 43 applications fornew churches in difFerent parts oJ England. This seemed peritctly natural, and, oreo.v,r, to prove nothing; for wheReyer it was known that Parlimetwar vigstn of money away, there wvere generally persons eogaxost have a bandjn.tie disposal of.it. Then the right hn ep~opst Said, that there were a great 'number of placesinEgadwr the inhabitants were entirely witliout the meanas o 'ot ot established church., He (Mlr.klobhos)are htEhr e some; and he agreed that, where thepol eeetrl ihu something ishouldl be done; bat- the xeto uhdfcec a greatly overrated, and the papers quoted:by the rigtbn.hnel of the Exchequer were not to be relie upon. In l4W6tminit-1 for nstnce afer ddrssig te huseon a former night upon thi subjct,he ad onehom an lokedat the papers to which thm' rigt hn. entema ha reerrd,,andbad found that accordingt ther vew,thee wre ix arihesoutof eight in "InVestmLiiester,i whic 18.00 peson wee wthot te mueans of resorting to th estabishe chuch. Tis hd alrmedliim~' and he had fubisoltitel been in doutbt whether he ought not to chaiike opinioam, aiin corn down to the house to vote for-the present grant ; but~, iqn 16okiog little farthier, it apipeared that a deficiency for 33,447.enrodrs in th parish of St. George, Hanover-squa.)e, liad been calulated from th census of 1821, and witbqut allowing any thing, out. df 'the gross PC ulation, for persons who were sick, superannuatecd, or iuluti,t . No' Se.u James's church wasg ihronged. A veiry excellent JA;khC'nv ha made that church -so popular, that. in order, to obtain. .sez4 ar Pews, ,ueoTe were obliged to a pply'seven years beforeban.d. S Gere,s,aoersur,too, (thechurch) was quite fttU no Pla were to be obtained.Best did the matter restlferee He bpLieved notei, tirely. There were in the parish of Sit. George, Ilanov`er'sqliare, Si or aeven chapels efease. He liad applied for seats ini one o&i:hern. Ir was informed that there were 100 at his chioice. Hie wenetqu&<iothe whiich he found.full: a third was not quite fullI: so that upoms'his osi experience lie couldl take upon himrself to say, that there were tvl not efull out of those three, and'thiat accommrodation tnight v&iY eas,i be had by those who were desirous of it. The.Chiancelhof-thie-E: chtequter had offred somie p roofst for the statemnents whicbh-hbad. ,' vanced; but there was nothing in them which seemed to' altdbrTm the reliasice:of the hou*e. He had afte~rthis gone tothie parishti6f.", Anie.whfierf, according totie re'turius,therevwdrel14,1)0pcrons'wI were. -le ft withiout th-e nieasn of religious worship. On ii quirp,i lie found that although there was no chapel of 'ew in 'tte pariahl, thaem was: plenty of room for those wbowan ed it' in the church. The returns in. this case were not corrOde, they 'did'not state the fact-.thehouse oughtnot totrust.to tlmb papa He went. on to St. Jamee's, 'Where the deficiency was stated sat papers asof'26,19 persons. He admitted thatithe church was fic and that the new cbureli of St. Philip's, in the same parish, 'W- almnost full;but there wereseats to bebhad:there were severalyAapi of ease, in which there wag abundanca, of accommodation t6-.be hr, The nextpartish which hevisited was St.1114ritin's,thedeficeencVrbeir. asistared for 23,752 perons.' There itwas easy to get accoirnflod: tion in tlse chrh though there Were sm 'Chapel oea. The d' fcncof St. Mlargaret's, Westminister., was stated -iat 20Pfl9 Pm,.' sons: the church was certainly full; but there was no WIv of seats in the chapels of ease. It !St. Jobhn's, the tleficier.; was stated as for 14,839, and the 'church was not fulfl. 'L sexton hadl Informed-.1him, that on the day 0 Partic-ul., sermon whichwas epected to have drawn a fuU cr 1,thre place! left for more tbsrr'lOO;~auad that he had never :heartkof comp4int as to want of accommnodawion. He had gonwthro)"rn,- this rmnner, six of the parishes of 'Westminster. Withi ticpe' two other-St.Jaiesa's andSt. George'#, Bleomsbury-theye wits' compltint: but there was a oDmplaint generally among the litss ters of the waunt of means for accoDmodation. Thecbspel of Oranl street, Lcicester-fields, wLas so throngel that not a seat.could be h' This might he urged a an argtumit for building chapeis for better accommodation of dissenting wor,hip. But bow could house consent to do that? He, fbr one, would be among foremost to resist it beeause thsey were there bound to fend' and support the national establishment, and no oth But unqtutstionably there was a great afflaence of dissentr: who might as, reaonably complain, that they were deAci., in accommodations for their own worship. Still there teas absolute deficiency. Every shopkeeper eitler went himself ers his family to some place owrslsh p or other it'5tvsdiscraedtsblsl~ a family notto do so. He contended, therefore, that the'Iivt not felt in the city which he had the honour- to reprelent-thesel place into which hebad been able, in th%e short time which ie devoted to theaubject, to direct-his reseakh. 'lIe would now gi, to the next point. -The right honourable'~gentlenlian profesFedfl he was not sanguine etsough to hope that he shbulg be ablir toe thatwas'waiited; bhutisethought hecould do a. great deal- tor curing thealeged deficiencies. Upon thatbiOIntbe must:beaV. with the' ri ht hon. gentlenian: according 'to the deficienvem the paper, this was almost doing nothing. He readily adm, thatthere might bea deficiencv oh mreans ainplhes 'where the sir-, factures had caused -a corsiderable popuWation to viseeup'uoddt Itmight be, wvieto assistauch places in tliepbuildingOf theou cluro butreally, to observehow little had been done, by'the sl cation of one milliouit _y granted, w6UIlddlI ourage the re=e` of anyprbopoa for further disbursen*bt It.aperpek ttbst Sgnteoration hadebeen pFovidedfor 13,000 some hunareds. tPhe 'papers roled than deficiency of means of religious worship under *Whicih lio less than 3024 000 personia were said to be now labonring, and for which the arlisrnrent would be bound, according to the brgaenit of the right hant. genticnin, to provide. They were to go taby dgrees- it a's said; but then they were pledged by the same (nVotoogothrough with thework: and howmntueh,then,wouldbe b 1 i ? edofthem? Why,saccordingtotherateatwhich they hadgone eore,te supply'thedeficrency tfaccominodation of 3,024,OMOper- t-1O would require 20 millions of money. Was the house prepared to go to this legth ? Iut if they were, this was only one-fourthi of li lTthnrof the country. If the othier portions cf the 12 mil- Snidt Sould, in their tUrD, require relfef ot the same sort, there bWould be 6O nnilions tO provide. If this was reaUy the crying want Whitch. 1? had been represented, they mnst go on gjvirg mioney tll thrt was ao room lcft tbr complaint; and he really believeri that l view of the subject presented a degree of expense in which Par- t}ment wouhl vety rcluctantly embark. Nowm that he might avoid rge of doing away one method of cffecting an object without roposing another, he wvould find oie for meeting the wants of the 77,0 persons for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer tar. P?s-ed to provide. What objection could there be to institut- I double, or even tteble, services in the churches and chla- Pers of thoxe places where there was at present the greatest defici- entY ohF means? Those who knew any thingof. religious worship 'O the contirr6ri ,ust know that several services were perfonned in te cour:e of the day-that they were going on fll day', ihri six ' clock in 2the morning. To be sure, the analogy did riot ihotgether !5i`d: because there was a difference between the ritual of tire Ro- man Catholie antil Protestant churchles. Tlre m3aSS was performed ,l -1eout a quarter of an houir, which was too short a space of tiiie kbr any of our services. But then it was onily to open the churcii at an earller hour of the morning, and continue it opet till a later hour ot the day; where one service lIad been pertormed, there -hegh be novw two; whfte there were two before, now let tihete be .thee. Another good plan was that of the honoutrable member f or Iidhurst I.he right honoutable gentleman thought it nig- 1ardly; he tould not agree ib that opinion-to himn it seemed o.st fair and liberal. ilis hosourable friend had proposed to lethia patrifohine!s, ,ho lvwante churches, build them, asnd pro- b'fiat a pa1tor for cni-nselves. He grounded his belief of thie efficacy CStabishan la on the well-known liberality of ti emembers of the toan blrnt. But they tisust be allowed to choose their own pas- - 'therewvotltdbe nothing done. Let there be somethinglike it5lar election in thie choice of the pastor, and much would be dtile - individual liberality. Tethe was a memorable example of that given by one of the.(5urzon family, who had at his own cost raised a church in Percy-street. Some would cheertfully embark money, if they were allowed, in helping the public to this accommodation, and content thlemiselves in uaksmg te interest of their money from the ptoceeds of the chapels, with the reflection that the better tse deed, tire more sweet and savoury would be the produce. f it were generally understood that the worshippers wMould be al- lowed to choose their owvn pastors, there would be no deficiency of means. Tire ehurch of England would be advaritaged because the building efchapls in her communiori would prevent dile congrega- tions from straying into the dissenting houses, and so far would hinder them froin becoming schismatics. One word more: the Chancellorof the ExCeqxer thiougist it beueath the house. on a question of this kind, to slow an illiberal and niggardly regard to poutds shillings and pence-an unfortunate sentiment for the right Eon. gent. to utter, considering that he was yet young in his ofiice, ;tad one ir which the house could never consistently with tir duty they owe;t to their caxstituenta- concur. if there were really this dc. clen4y of means of religions worship, which could be provided for in tto way so well as in the way proposed, he would be one of the 1st ien In the house to refusc thie vote now asked. But the right hon. gent, had only proved this by citing particular instances to which he (ilir. Hobhouise) had opposed instances quite as weUl rounded ofa contrary nature. He could not believe that there were any good reasons for making this grant, and thlerefore he would opose to leave out all the words of the resolution after the word "that ' anti substitute these words- ," That it appears to this conimittee that the sum of 1,000,0001. sterling has already been granted out of the public revenues for the building of churches; and that the number of individuals provided and about to be provided with church accommodation by the expen- diture of that sum does srot exceed 153,886 persons. "That it appears to this conmmittee, that a further sum of 00,0001. is now required by His Majesty's ChanceUor of the Ex- chequer fer the same object. i That it appears to this committee, that in 179 places or parishes only, more than 3,000,000 of individuals are stated by the parlia- hXsentary returns to be unprovided with church accommodation; and hat, according to the .sums already granted, and the accommodation thereby procured, it would cost the natioa nearly 20.008,0001. of *money to provide for tie deficiency above stated in 179 parishes or aces only, besides what would be wanted for other parts of the " That itappears, therefore,to this committee, thatsomeotlsermode than that proposed by his Mlajesty's Cbiancellor of the Exchequer should be adopted for providing for whatever deficiency may exist in educating tile people of this country in the doctrines of the esta- blished church; and that it is inexpedient to make aay further parliamentary grant for the building of churches." hlr. PEEL, before he proceeded to notice any of the observa- tions of the henourable member for Westminster, felt hiniself bound to say that nothing could be fairer than the principle upon which he proposed to rest the whole of this argument: it was a tair and liberal mode of settling the question. The hon. gent. admit- ed that they were bound to watch for the interests of tire national rel4aon before all others, and that it was a proper object for the solicitude of Parliament. All that the hon. gent. required was that there should be anmple proof that the church establishment did require this additional expense to be laid out for the due maintenanos of the national religion ; that proof being made out, the hon. ger.tleman said that he would be among the foremost to give this establishment the aid now sought. The lion. gentleman liad enJeavoured to reduce the force and weaken the validity of the n guments of his right hon. friend and it would now be his duty to %how that the hon. gentleman liaA not been successful in that at- tempt. The first airgument of the hon. gentleman was, that there was no immediate want of maeans felt, and that no call had been snide on Parliament to supply means. This would not have weighed -with him (Mr. Peel), even if true: he could never consider that in- difference tothe means of religious worslhip was a reason for holding them back. He rather took tbe contrary argument: it was the in- mediate duty of the church to inculcate religious feelings where thev existed notbefore. But how was the fact? Previous to 1817, there were complaints forwarded to the Parliament from various parts of the country, that the petitioners were without sufficient means of accommodation for religious worship. Parliament appoint- ed a commlission to inquire into the subject-to that cons- Tmission,, and, not to the Parliament, aU subsequent complaints lbed been addressed. Let not the honourable gentleman suppose that no complaints would have been made to induce Parliament -to interfere if they bad not gone through that commission. The hon. gentleman rounded his argument upon the case of the Westminster parishes; but there could be no conclusion in that argument. The norn;3entlernan found no detidency of seats and accommodation in thechurches and chapels of those parishes. But he confined hlis re- rnrks to the accommodation required by the rich, and those who were able to pa7. Vhat was the case with respect to free agmission ? 'The objbct of the Parliament was to provide accommodation for the poor. The honourable gentleman totally mistook the purport of the return on the table. It was by no means intended tbr a retum of allplaces whatsoever whichi were without adequate .means of accommodation fbr religious worship; but of all such places wanting the necessary means as contained 4,000 inha- bitants and above. In 1'Vestminster the commissioners lild not find the necessity so pressing as elsewhere. They had, therefore, spent little upon churches or cliapels in that city. In St. Mlargaret's it was computed that there was dleficiency with respect to a population of 19,817 persons, and yet the conmmis ioliers did not advance one farthing. They applied their measns where the deficiency seemed to be great, andi the urgency was greatest. Tiey only provided for about 5,000 persons in all the parishes of lrestminster. (Mr. Hob- bouse said acrosi the house, that lie had no objection to the mode of applying the moniey.) Tie hon. gentleman had not objected to the conduct of the commissioners in applying the money, but lie had drawn Ids onclusionrs wrong. XVlsat would he say to the large ma- nufacturing towns,-to Birmingham, Mtanchester, arid *Valsall? Vould he say that because Westminster did not want accommodation, that tihese places had also sufficient means? Would the house allow itself to lose sight of tire effects which were likely to result from a want of those means in large ma. nufacturing places? Vas it trot well known that a single inesarber of-a family once drawn to attendance on religious worship, the greatestbeniefit frequently followed to the whole of that family? Tine vicious lhabits of the others were abashed and rebuked in tire presence of this one righteous person, whose virtue and piety fre- quently effected a conquest over all the house. There were instances where children of tender age, after being brought to a sense of reli. sion, bad shamed their paTents out of con6frmed vicious habits. The lion. gentleman, then, sliould not conclude that they were doingno. thing, if tlrey did not provide for the whole of the deficiencies. It -Y --s--u11ta t usexut worB to enable one memberofeverr fa- milY te attend divine service. If he were to take one tlolt0sand in six forthebasis of what they ought to do, reckoning tor children, sicl; peo. ple,andothercontingencies,perhaps that wotild bfa fair modeofadjust. ing their arrangements in applying the grants of Parlianient. He did not think that tbe number of dissenters ought to be left entirely out of the calculation. God forbid that in this free country Govern. ment should ever wish to constrain the religious opinions of the peo- ple: but certainly it would be desirable to give some consideration to those who had dissented more from the want of churches than from solemn conviction; and who had shown that they preferre4 the use -of any-mode of worship to a total negIect of their religious duties. llut surely those who had been brought up in the comfortable and -enlightened doctrines of the church, would never be contented to. let so many ofisamembers go over to the disscnters, and run the risk of beng d into schisms antl errors, merely for want of churches to worship, in. Ile would calculate, then, that one-fourth of she whole population were without the means of religious worship which ought to be provided for them. Suppose a town to contain 109Q000 inhabitants, it would be necessary to find accommodation for 25,000L He could satisfy the houte, that with what was already done, f00,0001. would go a great ,ray towards the completion of the whole. Manchester, for ex- ample, contained 187,000 population. One-fourth of thatnumber g.Lve 46,000 At present there -were accommodations for 22,468: there on-y' remained 24,761 to be provided for. Of Birminghan, the population was about 100,000; one fourth, 25,000; persons al rTcaOy accommodated, 16 000- about 10,000 to be providei for. lWouldany man say, that i0,00) personsshouldbeleltin such atown as Birminghatn without themeans of religious worship, The popula- tion of Leeds,84,000; the fourth about 20,000; present accommoda. tions forl0,000;tobe provided for, 10,000. Theyought to do whatgood they could, lcavingit,Iikeseeds sown, to maturegrowtb, andin tlieend there would at last be a plcntiful harvest. - The hon. gentleman proposed double services. re ought to know, tbat in many of thcse places there were already five services in a day. He could mention n place where, besides the morning and evening services, there were 20 marriages celebrated; there were, besides, baptisrns, burials, ca- techising the children, and sometimes administering the sacrament. As to the choice of pastors by the people, he did not think it would be favourable to the interests of religion. Party contests would be mingled with religious feelings.amost unprofitable conjunction of senument at all times. At present, there was no hindrancp to the choice of a pastor by the congregation, proyided that the diocesan and the patron of the living could agree upon the presentation. In Frome there were 12,5O0 inihbitants, thete was only ac- comnmoilation for 950. In Walsall there were. 12 006, and acconmodation forno more than 700. In'Halifax there were 92,000, and 85,480 were without the means of religious worship. He knew no method f-ineeting these cases by any recourse to local meains, The rich proprietors were driven away by the very presence of the manufactures. There could he no ratidnal objection to laying out hairs million of money on this- ebject. As to the million already granted, there was no pretence ofany thing wrong in the application of it. Of thechurches theexpenses of which were voted in the reign ofQueen AnAretherewereonly 11 built in all; but eofthe onemil. lion voted by tlis Parliantent there had been 100 chutches built. The .00,0,,1., if granted, woild enable them to build fifty more. Ti&iwould excite the liberalitvof individuals and if altogether ihey c!oula succeed in providing the reans.of redigious worship for one mnember ohly mot of every family in 800,000, they would efiedt a gre.a5ter g-od than they could achieve by any other application of thle samie sum of r.4oney. Mlr. J. SMiTH thoughit the Building of churches was- a sub- ject, the imnportaTnce of which did not appioachl that of the edui caton Of 'the lower elasses of the peoplc. Churches might be built, as Ma ny had already been, by the voluntary contributions of the inhabitants, without the aid of Parliament. Under a proper ma agement they would rise of themselves, but the educadion of the poor required and deserved in a far greatcr degree the dssistance pfetlled legipslature For this season lie was sorry tnat ke felt com- peledto ppse heinteni0ed grnt. adr.e ' UHIdNGTrON could not accede to the arguments which hadW ben t?sed against-tie proposition before the commuittee. On the cont'ry, he thought the gratnt was not only required br rite neces- site5 of the people ,but was demanded from the house; no less as a rea.junre of justice tnan of expediencv. The principal object in erecng new bhurches ought to be to provide seats in. them for such persons as were unable from thieir povfrty to pay any tin'g for sucl accommodation. ',o this point he had parti- cularly directed his attention, anid in considering it uow niebe- sought the attention of the hoase to the andient laIw and prin- ciple bv whlcil it had been governed, It must be in the know- ledige ' niany honourable gentiemen, that there still remained, unrepealed upon the statute books, several actS of the reign ofQueen Elizabethl, by which all persfons who absented themselves tnrm the appointed times of divine worsliip wvere subject to penalties. He knew that these acts were upt now in uise, bht it was enotgh that thIey manifested the sense formerly entertained of the uty and necessity of all persons attending public worship. Nothing coulld.therelore, be more unjust than toleave therequisition remainink, whil e the possibility of fulfilling the duty it enjoinied was taken away. He could even go farther. for ie had heard from the hiighes- authority in the law an opiiion expressed, that even now the inhiRbitants of any place mizlht be compelled'to enlarge the severa,l places of worship it cont.ained, su as to provide every indi- vidual wio pleased to attend them with a seat. He mentioned these ciurcmstances only in support of the justice of the Proposed vote; but when lie considered the consequences wlicil the dearth of places or public Worship must and did occasion to the establishment of the church of E:ngland, lie was convinced also of its necessity. Those consequences were, that the poor were drihen either to the a1iemnative ot absenting themselves entirely from the public serYice of G(od, or of taking shelter in dissenting chapels. (Dear, hear.) Did tue members of this house, almost all of whom were members of the establisied chtrch, think that either of these alrna'es shou~ld b-e presented to the chioice of the poor ? (H-ear, hlear.) If there were any such, he (Dr. lIushington) profrsed bimse.lf to be of a decidetily different opinion. Let huse consider whiat was taking place at this hour. It was not hia Object, in the statement he was about to make, to hold up in an Invidioul light.thereligious epinions or sentimlents of persons who difered Irom himb, but that he wished the church of England to liae fair 1l1ay, an(i that the dissenters should not have the ad- vntagn e of having their doors open while those of the former were shu At this moment there wasociety called the HomeAlissionary Siociety, which was ainsost exclusively employed in sending its agentstoe%erypact of the kingdom fortlhepurpose ofincreaslng the numubers of those who no longer belonged to the established church. To the operations of this society lie felt reluctant that the field shlould be left open ; an(d what thti nature of those operations were the lmou',e might gather from a report which he held in his hand, and whlich putported to be the Societv's Third Report. Some agcnt of thesociety, who had been pursuing hislabours through the county of W1 orcester described it in these terms _" t shall here attempta description of the verydeplorablestatein which I have found the people of this dark county." (Thie hon. member wondered whether any of tbe representatives of this county were present.) " It puts me at my wit's end when I think of the depravity of its thoughtless inhabitants. I shall only toucl upon the marnner in wvhich they profane the Holy Sabbath." flere the honourable member said he feared the house would be lost in horror when they should hear of the enormities which wvere committed by the people of this dark county. " They play agairst each other at foot ball, and at hurling in a field adjoining to the church ! Some of them play at fives, some at ball, some with sticks upon the green, some go to the river with lines and nets, and the boys and girls" (Oh monstrous!) " assemble together." (LauRgh.) 'rThe zealous agent recommended that a march should be immediately commenced, and that invested in gospel armour, they should go from house to house ?and this was literally done) to collect subscriptions, the object of whichl was to spread the progress of dissent through the benighted county of Worcester. Ile (Dr. Lushington) was sorrv that theselaour shouldgoon uninterrupted. (Hear.) He de- plored rite manner in which doctrines were propagated. which, if they gained a general and a. fast hold upon the minds of the people, woulc be productive of infinite misery. He would not compare such doctrines with those of the established church, but it was because he wisyhed to see the establishm.nent upon a proper footing as reearded the dissenters that heshoud suppor the vote. (Hear.) There was another paper (which indeed he thought the right lion. gent. should have deposited in the archives of the Secretary of State) which purported to be an account of the monthly prayer meetings. One preacher was appointed to begin, another to go on, and a third to conclude, and the end of all this was to obtain subscriptions. The mischief which had been already done by these practises was infinite, and with his good-will they should do no more. (Hear.) It had been asked, why did not the members of the church of En-gland sabscrtbe and build churches as the dissenters had built chapels ? He replied, because they had been accustomed, and moreover they were eiutitled, to the enjoyment of places of public worship without subscribing; and although it would beeasy for the rich to subscribc, it was totally beyond the ower of the less a..ilent to do so. To the proposition which Tad been thrown out for vesting ia the inhabitants the right of electing the clcrgy- men of the new churches,he decidedly objected, Ie had had the h6npur of being counsel in the case of a parish in the citv of London, where the election was disputed. A regular scrutiny of votes ensued, -and the litigation occupied five whole years. Withont, iowever, entering into the details of all the mischiefs with which this mode was fraught, his objection to it was mainly that the necesfary canvass was degrading to the dignity of the establishment, and after all, it diU4 not tend to place in the pulpit that clergyinan who 'was most fit for the functiton. (Hear.) It had tather the effect of ap- pointing what was called " a popular preacher ;"-one of those who made no scruple of sending his hearers to the lowest part of the other world-a doctrine, however comfortable it might be to some persons, by no means suited his (Dr. Lushiitgton's) notionis. (A laugh.) It was, as he humblv apprehended, the dutv of a clergymnan of the church of Erngland to abide by the doctrines he had sworn to maintain, and to court the favour of no one. (Hear.) Itlhad been asserted by the hon. member for Westminster, that there was a sufficient number of chapels in that citr. This he de. nied ; he lived in Vestminster, and he was oblige to pay not only for his family, but for his servants. He did not complaih of this for hlniself4 it was his drtv to pay, and he did, it cheerfullv. But howv could the poor afford to do it? Let the house thirik how many -poor persons there were witlhin a nile of the house who out of their earnings could afford notiting for such a purpose, and from whom too,nothing ought to berequired. eb had one objection to make to the operations of the commissioners for building churches; it was. that he thought their expenditure was on too large a scale; he thought that at least they should furnish one free sitting for every 51. tley expended, and when the bill should come into the committee, he intended to suibmit a motion to this effect. Hleobjecied, too, t4at the bill, while it provided that the livings of the new churches should not be held by the incumbent of the msther chlrch, had not also provided against their being held by persons already in posses. sion of other benefices. Ile appealed to the good sense of the house whether, if the sum of 1501. was not enough to ensure a conmpetent discharge of the dittv, 751. (and no more would be paid to stipen diary curates) would efllct the purpose. This he proposed to re- inedy by ausendmlent in the conmmnittee. Ile should also move that the consent of the incumbent be dispensed with. That of the dio- cesan it was necessary to preserve, if the establishment were to be preserved ; but as no rights were proposed to be taken fronr the in- cumbent, he could, not be injured. The honourable and learned gen. tieman concluded by cxpressing hlis cordial approbation of the vote, the object of which was to sopply what the people were most in want of. and which, by affording them the necessary opnortunitv of attending worship, wrould most effectually prevent the increasie of crime. Mlr. HOBHOUSE explained. Mr. HIUME b, had not intended to have addressed the eoniiniilee but he could not sufferthe observations of hiislton. andl learned friend to 1ass unnoticed. fe had never heard arguments less applicable, unless they were used for the purpose of attacking the dissernters. For what other purpose could he have quoted the aet of Queen Eli- zabeth, or thatlpanilAilet, which mnight, for aught lie (Air. hutmSn) kniew, llaye been written by himiself. (Loud latuighter.) tale didr not mean to say this was thee fact ; butt if it were,.it otilml ndt be the fIIrst time' tlm, -- eCt work -as n auh---,,,-, -- -- - - -4qute(t iiis own I work as an authority. The honourable men;ber referred to a parliamentary document of 1812, by which it appearel that ib 1881 parishesin England, the population of which anmounted to 1,000 souis and upwards,. there were at that period U33 churches and chapels of the establishment, and 3,413 dissenting chapels. Now how did the hon. and learnet gent. tnean to supply this deficiency in the esrablishment ? Not by &iding thee putpits withi men of talent and zeal, but by building new churches. Did he suppose the stone walls would be sufficient for the religious instruction of which he tlought the people stood in need ? As fat as titiliiy Aia the object of religious instruction, the presenit 'sg:stem of church patronage ivas a most inefficient one. - He tegretted much to hear thr on.an learned gentleman (Dr. Lushington) advertingtoit witb such expressions of approbation and coull not u elp tli3king, tha theplan whichah;d been suggested by his hon. friend the m mbei or I idhurst, was that whicn the house might much more advAnta. geously pursue. 'With respect to what bad been said of the orisi. lege w ich in another comhmunion every seat-holder had_to vote al the electien of the clergyman-it seemed to him that great benefit would arise to the community, if such a systern were to prevail throughout the whole church., notwitlistanding the occasional con- tests to whiich it might give rise. Buit such a proposition as the ex- tension of this privilege lhad not in fact been yet submitted to the house. He would as], were hon. embers about to establish a new hYitem The right onourable genleman who bad introduced tfis question, ha,1 said the cases of thc church of England snd Othe dhurce wo' Scdotland were essentialy different the one from the other.He wpud grat that they wer s.,uinwarepect ? n Scotland, the heritors and Iandwere boand to maintain and keep up the church, as well as to provide for the clergy. And even in England, up toia recent perod, the parish churches had been built by the parishes. Very did brentin is nature was the system which the right honourable gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) wanted Parliament to adopt Before, however, the committee voted this half million, in addition to the 1,000,0001. which they but a very few years axo appropriated to a simnilar purpose, let them esdeavour to ascertain whether there were not Junds belonging thu churchl herselt out of which -00,0001 might very properly and tairIy be provided. Mas it meant to be contended that nothing which the church might tormerly have misappropriated, ought now to be restored_that if any such fands could be made availalble, not a sinle shilling ought to be granted out of them for the purposes ot this reso. lution? The committee had heard lately a great deal about tithes; and he woald now beg them to consider what were the objects to which it was originally intended that they should contribute. One of the highest auxtorities on these matters, the learned SClden, had laid it down, that there were four objccts to which they were so aj)plicable_l. 'he maintenance of tre church; 2It, the reliefoftthe poor; d, the supportof the clergy; and, 4th, rescration for the bihhop.: Now he (Air. Hume) cenceived, that the revenues of the Church of Eng2and, lookin) especielly to the if any other church except that of Ireand, that it w0a's hiighly Prxo. rer tt osuchario in2uiry us he called 'for shoul~dbe institated on the zreentocasin.'herihthn.gentleman hdspoken of the rfclies ottheceuntry as ?alirly authorizing the grmue .Fpublic inoeoy thati he proposed. Why, the fact was, that m th aq kingdom there were -millioas of-artifcers who-were working hard for the pittance of-from O.to. -1.~ a-, we-ek,- for -the, muteiancre of tbemselves and their -famili'es. Such be4ing -the'-4 daehd'(A1r.lidtrnt burnt be lal Dwed~ t dOut wethe thWaontry couldf be. prouerlyr Clled ri6h.'-(,Hear,) .- Thfe money market, nRdeed,; might be fuUil,..oi~ng -to -the:.rYetlundancy ~of 'capitti-in particular- hands ib'st hair-o. tally denied that,thervatmass fteptl,hldse~oT 'sitting uip arairs,- whoseohjedt --as :lnquir In atpht cZnalti&h; of- tho3e cla,sse-;-attid-he-woultIventure to-afir5 ha *en0t, h re~iorts of those comiinjtte6~s sho'.ildbe~ JaidbWiiiv- ihbe housej they: wouild exhiblit nothii,gbbit4derails of-poveiy- The righton..gen. tlernan had little reason -to ddesribe tipW,ple generallyr as beingc rich, when so large is porLion of. them were- employe d from 12 to 16 hours a day.for so little a pittadb*gie pvet ie` Did the- rsght hbon; gent, forget that out of the fopulaifo*h spolte, a1.mounting to 16 or 17 millions,'there were some 7,0O00WO~a least who acre not very' comfortably off', undoubtedly ; for what could be said, for ek.9nmple, of the Iri I! panty?(fear A%adrsggsinh'ro bee otei nadintht oiie,t n-bhalteaio ftbevote before the commitivee, whichi had been Just pr-oposed by the member far Midh,irst (11r. J. Smith). His honourable friend had very sensibly and feelingly olbsdrud, that it was moni- strouxs to appropriate 500,0001. ta thebluiltling -of bare wall% that couldl be of little or no use wheni built, -when iL might he applied for the purposes of instrucetion to be giVen to tile poot-, esnpecially in Ire- land;t and to whichi purposes thie hon. member, therefore desired to see tile money applied. The right lion; gentleman opposite hail askedl whether any ob.lection was made by EParliamnent at the time that 1,000,000 of moniey was sisk-ed ofitfor the buildingof churches ? lHe (.Mr. Hunme) was vety sorry to-reiiiy, that certainly no objec- tion wa.~it made at Che tifue. (flear.) He wo'ul d,onfess, thai 1,000,0001. wet granted thien, and. k0;01 nsal, frb iu pt4 riod commiencing in 1801, and continuiing uintil abboht three y-ea-ts since, when lie (5Mr. Hlime) had the good. fortunie to'priivct jits further duiration by a, mo'tion thathle .11id thec hoisouir to submit to Patrliament. But really the question priopoafnldl by the eight boni. gentleman furnished no argument for the vote whidh he craved the commTittee to comne to. lHe would readilv admit to' 6he right, honourable gentleman, that there were maany among oar own clergy whlo were exceedingly ill paid ; but he must repeat, that the reveniues of the chiurch were sufficiently ample to provide for thicn and for this grant. It should never be forkotten thlat this 600,0001. was part of' what hiad been denominated a1 "God4send,'t repaid, howevet,' as an acknowledgement of a debt, priAcipadl aind intere$t; dise to the people of Enigland, amiounting to 21,000,0601. ; atid thadt this 500,M01 wait! qn hle fourth of all that Egland lhad received on account of that delt. "Po drfaw itfruc a purpose as this, did appear tohim perfectlyunjustifl6l1e.- HisAills. jesty's ministers were at present in ve'ry good grace with the ibl (hear, hear); at least they themselves said so, and he Wm`pDoe31bh1eiY had some reason for the arsertion. (A laugh.) if they wers, fow-; ever, it was only in virtue oif tile compatrison ofrered by thosd who liedpreceded themn. Before they thoughitof builgingechurches with thtis sum of 500,0001., he',i~6uld recovmiend-Therii to examine into the income of the -bishoprick of Durham. (Hear.) If the hon. gentlemen whio cheered admitted that that vast income was given oriinally for purposes of religious concernment, he must beg to be infoi meiwhethetlit *as not too much for the services actually per- formned ? If it Was, Ict the excess of such income be appropriated to the building new churches. Xt might be asked, why he (Mfr. Hlume) not long ago had declinild to oppiose the grant of 50,0001. for new churches in Sicotland. lHe u*ouhcd tell; the committee: at the time 1.000,0001. was gta9 ted for a AmlUaiW&'it e in England, only 100,0001. was givefi to Scotland ; and oft it-16000001.. not ai single pound was ever appropriated. Wlhen, therefore, 50,0001., only hialf the fosmervote, was demanded for the actiual edification of churches in Scotland,he thought it would beliliberal to refsge it.; The right hon. gent, had put'it to the comnmittee whether'they would refirse 500.0001. on thie present occason, while they paid towards the sup- port of thie Catholic College ini Ireland. What didl those payments amount to? To about 10 0001.- a-year for the establishment at Mlaynoothi. In tliemeantime,~ lrihpople paid about two mi- lionsand a halt Per annumurnfor tit es, and heal already contributed 700,0001. tdwards the buildingof Protestanteburches8in thateountry.- WVithi respect to thie rih o.et'.e?ti9ns asto the disposition of thepeople in England,hraiyocre with Tight bon, gentleinen in sayingr, that if hywne e churches, it was flttirng thysould have the.hbbidn of churches for the esta- blished relipion, the diine ha ilaglycontributed ; not all of the,4i, by the by, fo eke aywo grumbled bitterly. As for the Quakers, he beeedtatey-i not pay unless they were forced to do so. Iftes cuhecol.ot be butilt out . of the re- venues of the cliurch hei ese~ ed- whether thev could not be raised from some other funds, without calling on the public. Hlere the hon. gentlemnan suggested, that if a bill were intraduced to au- thorize the erection of newcohurchesi by voluntary contribution, con- ceding to the subscribers the privilege of electing their own clergy. men, and providing that he should pass the usual examination to qualify hiim for a miinister of the Church of England ; in this case there would be no war,t of new chiurches. By returns made in "810, 1811 1812, 1813, and 1214, relative to the church of England, it appeared t1hat of10,6000parsons, 6 804 in- cuimbents were noni-residents 3,798 were residents. PAarliaent hadhead agoo del bou th abentesand non..tesidents'i the church o Ireland but the bore noproportion to the church of Englnd. o Irlandthe ropotionwasabouit 800 residents to 400. absntes. n Eglad, ccodin tothereturn of 1814, which wasI simlartotha of187, lmot o afratin, the non-resid ents were Exemptions from residence . . 2,&45 Ditto by, licences, and various othercauses 2,759 Exempuons, sinacares, and sequestrations 1,306 Ditto misceCellaneous causes . . 195 Making a total ot , 6,804 (Hear, hear.) The honourabIe and leaLrtied gentleman who was so anxious for fair play for the church -of Edngland, had bet-. ter turn hio attention to this statenient. If he wished to serve the church of England,, let him get rid of plaralitts and nnn-residents. The hon. memie~r, after-adverting to the statemient imade by Mlr. Peel witli respect to 'the Malnchester new chur'ches, contended that it could be proved, ttiat having been built they were now but half attended. JHe would give his decided opposition to the resolution. Dr. LUSHINGTON in explanation, begged m-ost distinctly to disclaim every sipecies of hostility to the dissenters, and to say, that it wvould be most painful to him if any misiconception entertained by the hon. member for ilfontr se (Mir. ffume) shouald go forth to the -public,, but there had -not been, in fate, -one word in his speech which, being justly initerpreted or rightly understood, woutld bear any such construction asi the honourable gentlemian had put upon it. -r'he paper he hiad read from was the thitd report of tle- Horme Mlis. sionary Societyb whichi he did not quote in Any ill feeling to thedis. senters,buc tosalow the necessity that existed forthechurchafEng.- land':sreceiving her poorermembers into her own congregation. He thouight thiere was a greatd1ifFerence betwetn hostility to the dissen. ters and attachmehit to oihe a ofts religioni Im ut he kad always given hi, vote in favloir of the most extended principle of toleration, -and only a few nights ago had paid the humble tribute of his applause to theexertions of the missionaries i the WestlIndies. In risingto correct a misconception on the part of the hon. gent, (Air. Hume), it 'mnight have liappened that he himself was mistaken, owing to thie difficulIty which was sometimes. experienced in making out what it wvas that the lion. gentleman really. ineant to say. (A laugh.) If, on the.othtr hiandli he ivas right' in his apprehkension of what had fallen from the holn. gentleniatis lie now gave himn an opportunity to afiord the hiouse some further explanation of his meaning: ex fumo dare lherein. A, lighter.) Mfr. BANK ES, juin., hiad been informed bybis hon. frind, the memiber for WVestminster, thast since the new chturch at AMaryle- boise lhad been built t'ie price of pewit in the old churchi lied, considerably risenl. I oi to Ishni this really seemed the oddest arguiment fin the. world agailist'the necessity for new. churches. (Hear; hear.) The losouraible gentlernan opposite had spoken of churches 'as beinig comVosed m erely of foot atone6 walls, and hadl asked of what us-e could they beto religion ? Wthy, he Oilr.Bankes) had lheard of religious service having been perforuiedin tubsauad open fields; buit he cert- inly thought tIqLt the Government of every late was bound to pr.o-lde for the deecent performnance of theL re7ligio'use rites whbichi it professed to uphold. As for the generalporinciple of building new churches, it ces-ts.inly ought to be a main object with Government to provide. for tdie union or sexes (sects). (Mluelh laugliteri) Thlat union had been.-an object mauch attendedI to in 'Irelanid. (Continued inlaglter.) it -was an. union that it- was of the greatest consequence to keep up. (Renewved laugh-. tar.) He apprehiended fromn the laughter in which honoturable gentlemnen indulged that lie had Inadvertently' committed somie verbal Inaccuracy. He needl hardly say that on such a sub- ject hie had no intention to speak with levity or disrespect, anid he begged to give his cordial asipport to the motion. Alr. IV. SMITH expresqsed- his inability to stupport it until it -shouild he ascertained il'trieidir r o the ilecessarS' fuinds could niot be furinislied outof the revennues of the establislied chiurch. Lord PALMEBRSTON, appealing to the invariable tenour of his own votes in that- hous-e for the evidence of hiis wish to extend'every toleration to dissenters, weas yet persuiaded that it was mutch for the advantage of the country that the udibmler of dlsaenters should not in- crease and thiat Whiich was thie zstablishO, sibould,.become also the asCenm2eht -drind iredomluani chiirtlbt Hi; loMsblip thent demon- strate the differernce between the cases of the etita6lighm-it u 'itd of the disgeisters witth, respect to -hjuilding clhurches. !t- Was oilf Ol poor that thie want of church accommnodation fell. The rich cotid Iipurchase pemes; - siud- they wvere always certain of- finid- inig sufficient toom ; but:iit would be ni6sit 1reejlosmeroixs to gay.that the poor shouldi subscribe for churches out of thlif daid all earningsi It had been sai d&that the application of thi-s fund to cburcheg Was a wanton eXpentlitire of - the public money, and that it: would be tnuchbetterif.thie ndney,wgre expend&ldin givingthem the benefit of ~ddi6atioh. - No man dodtd have it SUMter feelIsg of the advantages of having the poor educated thatn fie had7; but It r-iitsit be.vecollected, that eduication did not consist in merely learninsg to reAd aoud write. Thesewerethe eansand ot te obects of education ;- the ohs- Jeemi eremorl adrligousinsrucio. L-et the commlitteelocokat thedifbrece etwen he nhaitats f Scotland and those of Ire- land Intheforer herewasa pacebleand orderly disposition toobeythe ils., in thelatter, the constant tendency-t`ou -..ge.and disorder were manifest. What was - the cause? It was that the Scotch were better educated tlan the-trish. He didnot mean to say that there were more in one countty wlso knew how to write than in the other, for the difTrertce in this espect would be found to be less than -was genetally imnagine4; but the fact was, one people had theadvantage0ofmoralandrelhgiouseeducation in a muchgreater degree than the other. l(Hcar4 hear.) The noble lord conclu!ded by expressing his cordial approbation.of the resolution. filr. GORDON said, that wh si theChanceDlor of the Excbequer first proposed this measure, he thiought it a misapplication of the publie money ; but on reflection, '.e had reason to alter his opinion, particularly when he found*from the paperx, that there was such a want ofchsurchaccommodation. Ile was moreparticularlyinduced to alter his opinion after hearing the speech ofthe learned civilian (Dr. .ushington) and moreparticularly washe convinced of the necesi- tv-ofit after having heard the speech of the hon. member for Aber- cleen (Mr. Hurse). Since he-had had the honour of a seat in that liouse, he had never heard a speech with which le .was more dissa- tisfied. (Hcai, hear, and cries of" Spoke," from some members on the opposition side.) He awaYs found that whenaamember happen. ed to ifferfrom those with whomtlie usually acted, they -rere much les4 tolerant to him than those whom he usually o poied.(Hear.) This, bowrever, should in- no instance,prevent him from-giving his honest and conscientious opinibn: on everv occasion, whether it was in unison witlh, orinoppositoi itp, his p5liteit friends. (Hear, hear.) Ithdabeen statedbyan honourableandleamed gentlemian, thata set of peripatetic' nissionadJes were-g.-ing about the country; t'romn house to house, endeavounint infase what they called -stricter ziotdons of -religion into- the people. This wvas a canting and hypo- critlcal age, aned hie thought that t.~ere was mzuch-more danger from thoce evangelical -missionaries, ast--they e alled -themuselves, thaa could be - apprehended from the clergy of the church oEngland. It Zasms- because he wislhee-to -put'- Wl end to the pqpiciQinfou. uiee o6!those itinerant preacters, that he would vote for the present grent. (Cheers.) The comimt"ee then divide2- For the reolution 1481 Apinst it, 69 lfajority, 89 On returning tothbe pWlery, we found. Mr. VXtomri2 bringinz pthe eport of~ the committees on thesugarindrum acts whidf -wire ngteed to,'sndbl ordeted to be brought in pursuant tLreeto. The other of deis of the day were then disposled of and the houst airjoued ats cjtAA'rEXTo ON! o'cLocIt. till hIlondav. HOUSE OF COMAJOINS. FR1DAY A-,, n 'liHk UJSTRV T.AWQ