House Of Commons, Monday,...
The Times, 1824-02-17T00:00:00

IUr. BLACKBITRNE presented a petition froim the town ann neigkbourhood of Lancastcr, praying for a commutation of tithes. TAX ON COALS. Petitions were presented, praying for a repeal of the duties on coals carried conatwise, fronm 600 inhabitants of Ulverstoie, by Alr. STANLEY; from the inhabitants of St. Ives, by Sir C. HAW. xws ; from the Miayor and Corporation of the borough of Deal bv Sir E. KN ATc55sULT.; from the inhabitants of llfracombe ani H oldsworth, by Sir T. D. ACLAND* from a village in Cornwall by Sir W. LEMoy from the inhabitants of Teigninouth, by Captain BASTASLLD fron those of Staines, bv Colonel W OOD; from the town of Afinehead. by Sir T. LETter)iIDGE; from the Isle of Portlandby Mr. PORTMAV; from the inhabilants of Romford, and also from those of Raynham, by Sir ELIAB HAnVEY. Sir W. GUISE presented a petition from the wooUen-manufac- tnrers of the county of Glocester, against the importation of foreign wool. Mr. Alderman WOOD moved, that there be laidi before the house,areturn of the total quantity of spiritsi mported in the last year from Scotland into England.-OrdeTed. Mr. IMA BERLY gave notice, that he should move to-morrow for the p rodction of certain returns relative to umalt ant beer. AIr. F. LEWIS rose, in consequence of the indisposition of his right hon. friend, the MSaster of the Mint, who wished to be present at the debate, to ask an hon. baronet on the other side of the house to postpone to some future day bis motion for " an address for inquir- ing how far the coin of the realra may be adapted to decimal cal- culation." Sir J. WROTTESIEV, in consequence of the request of the bon. gentlennan, postponed his mo:ion till Wednesday'se'nnight. USURY LAWS' REPEAI, BILL. On the motion that this bill be read a second time, AMr. DAVENPORT rose to give to it his most decided opposition. The country had grown great and flourished under the present ay,- tem of law-where, then, was the necessity of altering it ? Besides, the alteration proposed would be particularly disastrous to persons with smnall landed estates, and would absolutely ruin all those who had bougrht them ten vears ago when land was high, and when thcre cas nn objection to leaving part of the purchase-money unpaid upon it. This bill miglit raise, but could not lower, the present rate of in. tere.t, and as he felt more for the borrower than he di. for the lender, he could do no less than move, as an amnendment, that this bill be read a second time this day six months. Mr. BRANSBY COOPER seconded the amendment, because he thought that the repeal of the usury laws would open a door to fraud and extortion on the one hand, and to reckless profusion and extravagance on the other. Mr. HU3I1 contended that this bill was quite as much to the advantage of him who borrowed as of him who lent money. It would, he thought, be beneficial to all classes of societv, if the lending of nonev was assimilated to the pract ce observed in effecting insur- ances vwhere the person by whom a ship or cargo was insured was not rerented by any statute from demanding whatsoever rate hepleased. Egvcry transaction of this kind ought to come fairlv before the public; and ifanv thing unjust or unfair appeared to have been done, the indivuiutid aggrieved rnight seek redress through the common law of the country. *He could see no reason wvhatsoever for postponing the second reading of the bilL It ought to be fully discuss and an opportunitv given to those wbo opposed it to bring forward their ar- guments, if they had any. It ought to be observed, that the ordi- nary interest of money was, at the present moment, from three to foutr per cent., being considerably under the rate fixed by tLhe sta. tute. The country was, in his opinion, much obliged to the learned gentleman for persevering with this measure. Sir J. WROTTESLEY supported the amendment. During '00 ears, the uniform practice of the Oovernment of this country had been to prevent extortion and usury, by enactine those laws which someindividuals now wished to be repealed. This country, infstead of being injured, had been greatly benefited by the usury laws. Sincetheperiod of the last act, that of Queen Anne, there was no country in which capital had accumulated to so great an ex- tent as it had done in England; aRd yet they were now called upon to repeal laws which brought the whole capital of the country into the metropolis. If they were repealed, it ought not to be on mere theoretical grounds-some practical good should be pointed out as likely to be effected .by the measure. He contenuled that those laws h-ad done no practical injury to the landed interest. In times of distress, it was true, they borrowed money at a great disad- vantage. But it should not be forgotten, that when they gave re- deemable annuities, those annuities might, in time, be taken up. The persons who now lent money to the landed interest at 38 per cent., wonid, if those lass were repealed, change their demand with every fluctuation. Now they weuld have 4, now S. now 6 per cent. In short, there would be no certainty in the money market. If, in time of distress, the landed interest could borrow money at 5 per cent., what would become of the commercial interest ? In proportion as the security they had to offer was worse than that afforded by the landed interest" would the lender demand a mnore e:orbitant rate-not less pernaps than 10 or 12 per cent. In fact, the mercantile ani manufacturiuig interests would be reduced to the utmost distress if those laws were repealed. Let the house al1so consider the-aituation in which the Government would be placed. During the last war, whilst the imutiny at the Nore was raging, when the Bank restriction act was passed, and when the plublic funda were under 50, no difficultv was expenenced in borrowing money : but he was convinced, if those laws had not then existed, that liovernment would not have been able to raise the nioney which was absolutely necessary. They would not have had that cireference int the market which they ought alwavs to have;and they wtpld have lbeen compelled tH pay an irnterest of 10 or 12 per cent. If, herefore. tbe repeal of those lawvs was calculated to starve the erchant: and manufacturer, and to beggpr the Government, the house oufbit to throw out this bill, and that, too, by such a majority aus wvould fnuce the learned gentlemnan never again to briLg it MLr. J. SMlITfI said, the honourable bHaronet seemed to fear that the raereantile ani manufacturing clases, and even the ovemrnment itself, must suffer by the repeal of those -la-Ws. Now, without entering into much argument on those points, it might be enasugh to state, that the laws agains usray had been done away all over Earope, and no harm had occurred either to governments or to individuals * but, on the contrary, it was to be believed that the; interests of all parties were much improved bvrthat erepeaL &fIear.) One or two circumstances had come under his own observation, wlhich proved that those laws had occasioned the moat destructive effects to families in this country, by compelling them toraise- nioney by way of annuity. (Hear.) Money, like every other com- modity, ought to be allowed to fetch its just value in the market. Nos, if an individual wanted to borrow money, which if these laws were not in existence, he might procure for 71 per cent., hc would be obliged, in his endeavour to evade those laws, to pay 13, 14, or even 15 per cent. (Hear.) Thehon. baronet had only to refer to the evidence given before the committee, and there he would find those facts distinctly proved. The hon. baronet eneased som e fears as to the situation in which the commercial body would be placed, If this bill passed. Now he (Mr. Smith?, as one of that body. must say that he had not the slightest apprensen. sion on thesubject. He confessed that he never had met a man for whos- judgment he had any respect, who entertained a doubt on the uestion. (Hear.) bfr. GRE?NFELL said, the chief argament against the bill was, that the effect of the repeal of the usury laws would be to raise the interest of money. Now, is Holland, there never was any restraint on monev dealings; and he could state it from bis own experience, as well as from history, that there was no country in Europe where the rate of interest has been and is so low as in the United Provinces. (H&Tr.) He hoped, therefore, that Government woald countenance this measure, which was in perfect unison with the liberAl course of plicy they had recently adopted. (Hear.) Mr. rfUSKISSON said he badi been a member of the committee to whom this subject was referred in 1818, and who had reported their sentiments to the house. The opinion he- had formed in that commitee he still entertained. Indeed -he'1iad never varied from it. He need hardly say that it w5s entirelv in unison with the object of the learned sergeant. He considered those laws as only calculated to ere:te difficulties. (is[ear.) The CMIANCE;LOR of the EXCHEQUER iald when this question was brought bclorethe house last session ha voted against the prolosition, not because there was any advantage in the prindple of the existing laws, against whi4-on the contrary- many agraments could be advanced-but bee3use hotwas not prepared to say that the moment had arrived when Parliament ought to repeal these laws. He did not think that the- oppostion to the measure was now so strong as-{t was last year; 3nd if it were destrable at aU that those laws should be altered, h-i taitecved the present period was as good as could be selected. (Ick) Mr. CAfCRAFT1 saidlt would be very difficult, lie was aware, to defend those laws-inpoMi of principle; but, in ipoint of practice, he must say thit it wouliae dlangerous, without a great deal mote ongideration, to iltls6irsJaws in a country where there was so geneyal and so bene664iil distribution of capital, and where money eSzt.D belsadat 21Uiticsieat a lOW rate of interest. If the learned itlenirsa w7ith .wiW9ni: his mesalare originited thougat, whilo ,(iosaeeni;nt was li'tlibe market, that any cbange of the law wiItI itiske the beet: of rnoioss cheaper. to individuals; he -rev ist^ae. -Se (hir; Caleraft)- beleved the la*8 w.ould raie tihp jtice f nie.tey>to Governz inent, instead of reducirci t, G6talJet0n!getaed-t6 tuppose, that by tarryig-thismeasu e, nviduals. woald bev4vea frwSshn ruin,becausC they- wo6uld not then ,be oblioed to get inlto those' annu1ity cotract; under wbich so many &wiibes ajxftkrea - they believed tht:acos- plete endl wouldl be put to all guinous money contricts. But it was utterly imp?ossible to hope for any suchl result, unless, at the samte time that thiose laws were repealed, thiey contrived to alter the con- duct and tenmncrof individuals. *$y repealing those laws thcvwo~uld facilitate the borrowing of' nioney by extravagant persons, without coferring any Advantage on trie' steady aLd industrious part-of the community, ;whomn they ought cspecially to protect. He wag not 02s. the committce (The lionourable miemiber was lkere-rembided that he wa a member of the committee.) If lie were on the committee, he had certainly forgotten thiecircumsatance. (A laugh.) He had, hbwvever, read the evidence;, and, lhad lie known that the learned serg;eant's brat, which had -been bandied about from session to session, was to have bean takenr up by Government, he' would have brought down thiat evidence, and proved that it did not bear out the view of those who supported this rmeamue Ne advan- tage'lhad been poibted out that would at all warrant them in embarking on such a speculation. Thiere was n-o coantry,, not even Holland itself, in whiich wealthk had so greatly increased as it had done in England during the period w t!n those laws wer in operationi. Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW defended the bill. The gentleman who seconded the amendment, anjd the honi. bart., bhd fallen into very great muistakes with regard to these lawvs. They had spoken of the poliy inwhih th usry lws rigiate but let theist look to the preable f th oldlaw,and hey ouldfind it therein statedl, that; to tke nteestat ll ws cimia, ecase it was "1 against a Chris- tia prncile. Yt tis,theeary aw, was what they praisecl as ighy plitc. f curs th ladig of money fell into the hand ofthe ors ofusurrs,whocharged not only in pro- portion to the ris te ra,btwocharged also on ac- count of- the odium thywr opleoendure. They were told that this measure wol eto h addinterest, who at present could raise money by redeemaible annuties. So thiey could, and so they had done ; and the evidence take befoTe the committee pToved t,hat thy paid 10, 12, 13, and even 14 per cenit. This was the ex.lclen remedy which the hionourable baronet wished themi to resort to. It was also said that the commercial interest would be borne lowvn by this measure. Let them look at the evidence agi, and attend also to what had fallen from his tionourabie friend (MNr. Smith). It was notorious that commner- cial men, wlien in difficulties, hiad, to evade these laws, borrowed stock, and los9t 30 per cent, by selling it. His principle was, thiat, like alt other tr-ades, the tradle in money should be unfettered.;* Mlr. A. BARING said, the subject of mnaking a change in the usury laws was, undoubtedly one of very considerable importance. It was, however, a chiange whLich would produce no- immediate ef- fect whatever ; and it was bec-ause it -would not produce any efihet, that the present appeared to him to be the best time for makig the alteration-if for no other purpose than to remove a system of false legislation on this suibject. It was, as - his hon. -friend had saidl, -as inmproper to fix a nwwimuon on the valuAe of inoney,as on thei xalue of any other article whatever. Tkis was the only pexic,d, for the last half century when Parliament could safely 1"gilate on'thiose laws, in. support o? which the ingenuity of those wvho approved of theta Affordedno0argumnent. It was stated, tha't no'twithstanding these laws, there had been a great accuniulation of money in this country. But thle reason was becaucte those lawvs, with reepect to capitalists and mnonied men, bad been nuite inoperative,~ as they were very easily evaded, It was sta_ecatte ey ls which wrould,,iabove all others, he benefitted by the repeal oftoe laws, numely, the country gentlemen, should view the mieasure withi so much appre- hiension. - (Hear.) The interest taken in this subject by that very respectable class of men was moat evident; and there.. for th quston ugh tobedisussd,in order that they migt dclae teirsenimets,andtha anendeavour should he mde t remve teir ppreensons and pTejudices, if 7pos. sibe. t; n asubequnt tag ofthe proceedings, those whio suportd te masue wre ot bletopersuiade the country gentle- men tat tis bll wuld dr h injrous butfavoi;rable to them, they might then except from its prvsosalloans of mo- ney on mortgage, andreathlwasireetd the manufaic-. tutrer and rierchiant. Iftecutygnlmnpesd, the would tliai e efttoenjy ll hebenfis o te present system, which, so far fromn being iysefurl, appeared to be the greatest injury and curse theyvc6uld laboir under. (Hear.) CaPtain MAsaEB1,Y, Sir WV. DE CRESPI-;oY, anld tfr. J. MAR.- Tyew, severally expressed themselves in favotrr of the bill. The house then divided, when the numbers were- For the hill, 120 1 Against it,23 I Majority fortlhesecond reading, 79. On e-ntrig hegaley,wefondthe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHQUERon hs les, mvingthatthe report of the coom- mittconway andmeas b broghtup.It was not his inten- tio, te rghthonurale entema sad,to move those votes on the reset ocasio whih reatedtoannualuties, because he un- dertoo tht t ws te itetio ofanhonourable member (Mlr. Bright) to move.an amendment with respect to the tax on foreign spirits. Alr. BaRIGIuT and Mlr. MfABERLY said a few words, after whlich this courie was assented to.- DEPUTY REM2NE3BRANCERSEfIP OF THE EXC'HE- QUER. Mry. EARING requestedI to be informed of the circumstances under which Mlr. Vincent, after the death of the late Deputy Re. membrancer, Mr. Steele, had been appointed to this office. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said, that Mr. Vrincent's appointmenit was temporary. The law which came into operation at the death of Mr. Steele, did not provide for the aboilition of the office of Deputy Remembrancer, or fix the -manner in which the duties of- that office should hence- forward be performed ; it only, required that, whenever that event took place die L'ords of the Treasury should deter. mine what should be the fujture duties of the office, and what should be the extent of the emoluiment arising from it. The Lords of the Treasury, Accordingly, un)on the death of MIr. Steele, lost no timne in calling upon the Ba'rons of the Exchiequer, and upbn the Chancellor ot the Exchequer, to report to them As to the natw-re of the office. but the fact was, that the duties of it, from the nature and constitution of the Exchequer, %vere absolutely necessary.to be continued-until some new system could be arranged; and it was not very easy to decide by what systdm the business would be best dlone, and with least axp eitse to the public. Pandiig this inquiry, how- ever, Mr. Vincent had been appointed. He wasu requrd Iimiiself to perform the duities of the place, and allowed ndeuyadhe was directed to receive the accustomed fees for tepeet o ep itwr themn for himself, but paying them into thecnodadfu; the Lords of th Treasuryr of course reserving to themselves the poe f giighim an adequate compensation for his labour. For himslf,theChacellor of thel Exchequer added, he was miost anxi- ous to regulate the office in that waLy which should be most condu- cive to the public service; and, whatever difficulty there might be in determining the precise mode in which the necessary duties should be executed, there could be no doubt they would be performed at a considerablv less expense than they 'had been heretofbDre. For the appointmen't of' 15r. Vincent, it was merely temporary; and there wras a full uxnderstanding that he was to have no claim to the sitrA- lioni when thie Treasury should be prepared to arrange a permaneu t establishment. Mir. BAkRING professed himself satisfied with the right hon. gentlmn' xplanation ; and trusted that the new arrangemnent would=monet to. complete remodelling, of the Exchequer. It was high time thiat the country got rid of a-system of keeping -accountg so cumbrous and so inefficient, that it might almost disgrace a tribe of .Indian savages. WASA DM AS The report was then brought up, and the resolutions read. To the pension duty Mr. HUAIE objectedas partial anqd unproduc- tive. The -whole sum produced by this duty was 300,0001. a year ; for the Treasuiry had power torelieve an perons or;classes from ittliat the ih hn i.A tsee oi,te ta uh ohre-mno- deld,1 o nieyablse;ad esol ak ute oppor- tunityr (a eudrto h orbegnlmn faverting to the sbet The rsltoswr hnare o COMMITEE O SUPLY. On the motion of the CHZA1;CELLOic Of the ExCHEQuER, that the house s,hould resolve itself inito a committee of supply, Mlr. IiUME1 rose to present a petition connected with the charges for the navy. The pedtitoner was a gentlemian of' ihe name of Barridge, who had lately written upon the subject of "1 Dry Rot ;"1 and the petition stated very extensive injury accruing of late years fromn that dlisease to our shippinig; insomuch that nearly one-half the vessels in the navy were more oir less visited by it; and several ships, the Lord Nelsoni, the Lord Howe, the Qrecni C/as7lotte, and others, had latel~y, upon a survey, hpem found to be en- tirely destroyed. ? he petitionier added, that it would appear, upon calculation, that owing to this disease, the numiber of sea-worthy ships which at - present comnposed our navy was smaller than that which - we had maintained -in the year 1793 ; and prayed that the Board of Admiralty woul-d take means to repress the ev;l. Mlr. Hume wais desirous, himself, to know whiat the Admiralty was preparedI to do in this matter, -which seemed to hinm to be one of thte veryhigestimprtane. t ws qitecertain that the English oak hadno ben se fomelyto ggy,as it did now. For the coal tar,whih hd ben sppoed aremdy,he uanderstood that it did notingbutinlchif;ft njued he eath of the men, and did no goo tothetimer.He as nfomedthat ships built in America, fromwoo feledat te saso whn -the sap wads not in the tree, were not subject to dry rot,-o otlas,nt in the samne de- gree with those built by us frNVoo felled when the sap -was -ini it. Whatever mightbth merits of the petition h- thought there could be no donbt tha the suibject was one Zfic demanded the fulle-st attention and discussion. NAVY ESTIMVATES.-- Sir GEORGE CLEIUK rose to bring forwa-ed the navy esti- mates for the present year- ; and, after the great reductions which had already taken placce in our naval department, did not appre-. bend that anyulrther ones were Rlley to be proposed. The vote calld for this year was 3320,0001. more thanr bad begn taken last, becauxse it was necessry to makce some-small addition to our present force. H*e anticipated no objection to this from the gejtlemen on thie other sicle, because their complaint for some time bad bean ra- thier that our niaval establishment was too low. The unsettled state of some parts of the wvorld to which the commerce of England was now, ith eery rospect of advantage, extencding itself, would fuly xcue hetrilig adiiop.1ezpese which was contem- platd; nd n aditon t ths cnsi~r~ipnthere was the proba- quarte was wthy an a fo tnantin rawn~ th necesity go- power in the ItVediterranean, as long as the present disputes existed between Turkey and her Greek dependencies. With resoect to the petition which had been presented by the honourable member for Aberdeen, the subject was already 4n4er the consideratioa of- the Admiralty, who was not blind to its inmportange. Thefact waO, in some measure, th t-fromn the great exigencies of thc late war 'ser- vice, it had-been found necessary to build ships wyithout thoie pre- cautions which woujld have- been used undet drurthstences of fil1 leisure. Timber had been used, in many cases, which was nit. sufficiently seasoned. We werp now, h6weyeo, using every means to, avoid the -evil to whiclh the hqnouyable member for Aberdeen alluded. Ships were built under coYer; the timbep emploed wrs perfectly dry; and the coal-ta'-as to the harmlessness Of whidhne had understo6d the'honourable-member to be satisfled-the coa-tar was made use of, and, -as was believed, with good -effet, mdc. pendentof these precautiops, an-experiment was mw fnaking vye ther'thedry rot nmghtnot be prevented byimmnersingthewood in sal -water before it was worked ap ; and he begged to stliethat theCdmp- troller of the Na-vy, whose infornmation upon the matter was much betfer than his (Sir George COerk'aY own, ionJdl1e fishy prepared to answer, if neceesary, all the allegadens in .iehsqn. netnler for -Aberdeen's petition. The-hon. baronet concluded b i,that tbe extra chatge of 320,0001. incurred, was to meet-thecost of-4,900 ad ditionalfieanen (making our establishmenr, from- 25,Q0 men, 29,00Q, incduding s force of%000mariuesl, together wth extail eltente5 arising out- of the increased 7rica of provisions, d b;ymovingtigtl a sum not excecdinga 950L should bgranti4Cor wages for.the navy, for the yexr sormencirg Januarym 1.4 lr 4$ b tputs questeoitwith 'tepcct to, the or- rangemens ofthc tsr'cvntivt service, which had ilabliahed a aort of gem arm ie-.for it -Ioel-1bg compared to notbing else-uponr our sh-ores The lgh-dtitla, imiposed. *at'ere, now,.tbat France and E:ngl5nd wvere at ec, ofeititng as such L bounty upqn zonteabanilttaea?*o vigilsa iaice cou flthst id; 4dptodlucing ac. 'tuknly aregnlsr gsital waSfr etietwe;x theGovernment force ant t7ae smnggleso -+had xnow ns fewer than-l,700smeaempTn d in the prerentive seivice,patrouing upon our coast- e wished also'to know if. in case of any addition being- made to the force appointed, to the coast blockade, tbe additional forces would be put under the s.ame cousatdassaO t present, There was one s,hip of 'war stationed in the Downs to watch over a line of coast so ex- tensive, that the officer who there hwld control was either on horse- back or in the boat, night and day cTntinually, for weeks toebther. This he might do from his zeal and amcietv to complete a systen of his ownn-creation ; -but it was too much for the countiy to re- ceive froit the service -of any one man. For his own part, he did not be'ieve that while the duties on foreign ,pirts' and wine were as high as at present, thev ever would be able to prevent srmuggling. it was impossible to. make those persons wbo were engaged in bringing tri contraband commodities feel ny rnoral compunctions upon the subject of their employment, while they were tempted with the boanty offered by the presetit enormously hi'gh dtties. Pf is only object, however, in rising, was to know if any, and what porton of this additional force of 5,000 men was to hc put under the command of the gallant officer to whom he had alluded.- Sir G. CLERK said, that it was the intention of Government to continue the systenm of thepreventive service as atpresent established g which, notwithstauding the remarks of the hon. member. had ope- rated with most complete success. There had been one violent and bloody affray upon the coast of Kent, which had been much dwelt on by the opponents of the system; but it was merely the last desperate efforts of the smugglers in that part to de.- fend their unlawful occupation against the encroachnments of the preventive service, It was very true that Captain M'Culloch had his whole heart in the success -of the syslem, of which he was the contriver, and that his duties were of a very weighty kind, his com- mand reaching in extent -from Chicester, westward, to the Isle of Sbeppey, eastward. Of the additional force now asked for, 630 ~seamen werSso be placed under the supzerintendance and direction of that officer. The narrowness oF the channel in this division made the running of spirits more easy than in other places. But he could afdely say,that the greater part of the smuggling now carried on took place without the linhits of the coast blockade. He admitted that the high duties on spirits, rendered neessary bythe large amount of taxes wbich must of necessity be raised, oi*ered a great inducement for smuggling, and therefore the preventive service naturally operated less effectvely in those parts of the coast which offered most faci- lities for the introduetion of spirits. Colonel DAViE S doubted the Let proposition of the galant offli- cer, that the amountof taxes could he augmented by such enormous duties on foreign snirits, and if the proper mode of augmentation would not be considerably to reduce the dutiex, which would also enable thol to get rid of that most expnsive system of coast- blockade. By retJrns, for which he had moved in the last session, it agpp that the expense was no less than 600,0001. in the collecion of that branch of the revenue only. It was his intentior, before long, to show how the revenue rnirht be benefited and the establishment reduced by the adoption of a more reasonable policy. It was in vain to look for the extinctionof smugglily to the preventive service. Those who Tiolated the laws by the introduction of contraband goods had no immoral intentions_consequently there was no direct (Iread ot igno- miny in the punishments which they had to fear. There v as notuing in the laws so prolific of erisne, (the laws concerning poachers al- ways excepted) as the lawi which went to the prevention of smug- gling. As to the interests of the revenue, he pledged bimself on a future thy to prove that they wvere materially and constantly injured by the continuance of thepresent very high duties. Dr. EtUhlE was not satis6ed with the view of any addition to the navy, nor did he like the node in which the accounts were laid be- fore the house. It was impogsible to cboose any method in which mischief would be niore ikcely to aLise, than the combining of the preventive service-with tht regular means of defence for the country. The house was kept froni knowing the limits of either branch of the service; and if it were not-so, it was next to impossible to ascertain the expense of collectingsthe revenue, and, consequently, they were withlout the jtower of delberAtinig upon the propriety of keeping up particular kinds of daties: they were proceeding altogether upon an erroneousprincilie. Formerly the naval estimates were kept entirely distinct from the charges for coUecting the revenue. The naval officers on their different stations -were at hand, and fre- quently assisted in the caption of smugglers. It wvs no advantage to the character of Englisi seamen to be identified with the collec- tors of the revenue-it wsuld rather lower, than improve them. They would be anxious, tDr the sake of the additional pay and the milder kind of discipline, to get into that line of the service. He wished that the estimaes had continued to set out, as had been done up to last yenr, what force and expenses were wanted for sl!e defence andprotedion of the country. and what for the pre. vention of smuggling. He had moved for returns which would be of great use in elucidatin5 the system of the preventive service, as tlcy would show how fit the reduction of duties in Scotland and Ireland liati tended to tbe decrease of smurgling on those coasts. Bat what necessity coule there be for 29,000 men this year? He remembered very well fhat a noble lord, now no more, had held out hopes in 1817 and 18!8 that thev were to have the navy rednced to the limits of its establiMhment in 1792, at which time, and before, it did not exceed 16 or 17,000. That nobleman justified the con- tinuance of the then establishnient by the state of the world, which was not settled down into tbat permanent and un- questionable tranquiUity, which they had good reason to ex- pect. Since then all tie measures which he and hiscoadjutors had in hand were comrieted. Never was the state of the world more entirely settled and at rest. The war was at end in Spain. The American President had set at rest allquestions respect- ing the independence of the South American colonies. Thanks to him, and not to us: his manly behaviour had done that which the dastardly fear of speal;ing out to the potentates of Europe had hin- dered us from doing. This might be a very good ground of com. plaint between Spain and the United States, but there was nothing in it to require an increase of the naval force, re having resolved at all hazards not to go to war. He admitted to ministers that the pro- perinterestsof the ountry should induce them to cultivate peace. Then, if they had any reasons ta apprehend war, (thoughl he doubt. ad the general value of the information which they received), let them speak out and tel the country exactly what was to be expect- ed. There ought to be some good reasor assigned for the present augmentation. The navr of England, both in ships and men, ex- ceeded the navies of al the other Powers. What was wanted with more ? They ought not to be voted, unless it could be shown that there was danger inirinent. To render the navy efficent, however, much more was necessary besides men. There were defects in the whole of the arrangements of the naval service, which were inimical to its strength and welfare. How came it, then, in a time of profound peace, the captains of the few ships which were commissioned, found a difficultyin making up the complements of their crews? He beiev- ed that the reason would be found in the late regulations which had crept inlto the rules if the servic. The class of officers now employed was notfilled up from the old valued,- and experienced officers. The late promotiOnS seamed to ha ve been taken upon a better prin- ciple. But vould the house allow the navy to go on as it was at pre. sren t conducted ? To come to the radical defect: formerly it was the pride of the service that the son of any man, however low his condi- tion or ranlc, might, by entering into the navy, open to himself a sure way to the bighest honours of the profession; and this facility of advancement in the service used to' be vauntingly contrasted with the naval senices of Franee or Spain, in which no one could hope for a command, except he were a cadet of some branch of the Royal Family, or was at least distinguished by his armorial nuarterings. To this difference was attributed, and with great truth, t6o, the great superiority of the English over any other navy. He held in his hand an order in Coundl, dated 19th January, 1803, which prohi. bited all persons holding warrants, inoluding-masters, from passing examination as persons eligible for promotion in the direct line of the service. The only exception to this orderwas the schoolmaster, who was sure to know less of nautical affairs than any other officer, and was therefore less fit for that promotion which was secured to him and denied to others whose experience and qualifications were unquestionable. The house must recolct the admission made by lord Howe, that he owed his celebrated victory to the skill of the master of his ship more than to his own. Why shoald so valaable a class of officers be excluded from promo. tion ? Why should therc be any more bar to it than to the promo. tson of sergeants in the army, many of whom had advanced them- selves by their merit to great honours and distinction ? Let this be done away, and then navalpeople of all ranks would readily flock to the standard whenever the service of the rcountry required it. Wthat- ever number of men were needed let them be perfectly satisfed, and then the navy would always be efficent. Ha considered the system of impressment as an intolerable grievance, and only equalled by the terrible system of disdpline which gave unfledged boys the power of dogging veterans without the intervention of a court.ntar- tial. the natural and cerin means of protecting the service from abulse Upon the Whole he could see no reason for augmenting the nav:d force; and unlea he heard somet better reason than had been advanced, he wcnsld persist in dividing the house upon an amendment which he wouldlnow submit-thatin stead of 20,000 men, the num. ber 25,000 should be substituted in the vote. Sir G. CLERK said, that as to the period of 1817, to which allusion had been tbade by the hon. gentleman, there was no time in which the hon. gentlemen opposite had been more united in their objections against Mlinisters or reducing the navy to what they con. sidered too low and inefficient a standard. The hon. member had asserted that no reaSOn was givea for the increase of the nswal force, except the coast bloclaira_ He must have been unfortunate in trying to trake himself understood, or the horiourable member would have known what he meant by the reference which he had made to the unsettled state of the Spanish American and the British West India Colonies, and the inconveniences to which the disturbed rcladons between Spain and her colonies had given rise in the westerii seas. It was impossible for so formidabl a power as Great Britain to allow the quarrels arising between infenor beligerepts, to interrupt her merchandise in the other hemisphere- -ai4 a large a force as the whole of the addition now asked, wouglkieleus than was requ'red to restrain the petty piracies withisl sie\5t India seas. TRhe difficulty of getting men for the ships, he was lutppy to i!form the honourable member, was only imasgtnary_nQ sbsihadi suftered ny considerable delay on that account. As to the imprbsssrient wahich bound tmen to the service for life, the hon. merbermust be ignorant of the regulation vwhich li- nlited the period of service in tni'eofpeaceto three years. When th c igeniesof aterequired it, men mustbecompelledtoserve in the navy e3;en jby forne. In referring 'to the orders in council, -the boa, member had nrglkcted to quote a very important excp- tion, whilch ol?en;d the lhj of promotion to sasttrs who should dis- tinguish themsne)es. T.he fact was, thbfno class of navaa officers was so valuable as the masters, and therefore all that could be done in the fair regulations of the service, was donie to rctain them ink their . situations, but this *as not without duly warn- ing 1)em7 stiat in accepting -the masters warrant, they ex- cluded thense*yei. froiu tie direct line of promotion. The rules of 'the service gave as. much i to a foremast-an to ppweg in the service, the p tregulatoni did away al groutids for any such complaint. 'o lnilshiphan could pass for ieutenant. .unless he were lF years of ages, and no officer could obtalnsa cap- tain's cominmssibn unl le had Meryg4 tFc years as lieutenant. This was aJFtbatiethooglst it Iieessaryto sayatpresent. If tbe honomsrsbl4e rpeiiibe- chiouc to make tlieother matters of his speech the sulsject of a speti4e motio, of crse lie was at liberty so to do * hut after the tritmpb ant awer which had been given to bim in the tourse of Xust ses-siO4 bybis gaLUnt friend behindt him (fair 0G. Cookburn), it *Asnot very 14c I ebt he would getutusto the attack. (Cheirs from the Ministeril d,.) . ilZr. R. B,1RN-AI said that if those cbeea .werc to signaUzex the .trbniFmp of ti- pIleAn olicer over his honourable friend (Mrs. Hmne), thatbpirnin Zras o 4Uo vblc'for those wlio thought with the gallant offlcef* bitt if theyr-weit beyondthst, an.desumed that the bouseotth'erereisi:e t.erc satiatied,- he cois1i asstire.heni,from the. litUliexpex-icncgle liad 1haigtbt no spieeih.cogld .biZemore unsatis- Factory to thoia wilidi wetk chiefly intereste&the offi6irs a f. the navy. He WaS JrWare 0hs? the ~rresent regulatiens prseqefi xaw boys f-om the indiscreet exercise ofirower as tornmnandels, irr-i ,rFt 4,egetltan 'for, ardli evedtbif thelconclton was 'Ihousndsi ti-ds beerta.evri beei brtt biut stil- there 'hay muckh60 orlei,t{eiy inrgidrt princple upojs whichi ap. paiqsis~r.,~ rvsct.obrrind-)'e could not however, alto- geth~~j J~ hn. rien (M. Hdne)that there wha no caneo~rea, ad ro rs~on fe~ yal~raionin oar na~val equip~. mients-ar,ising fro th nete ric s Gre f thle world. On Lui -,"-_ ,mijrmy, it aperdohm htteP pltcal lhorizon all round tila gloliiwss full ofsgsadidcons of approaching danger. Heitceefore wiln oleave the navaL preparations o h on try,to th&~'discretion of mnsters, as he hailal his life through-ap. preacehed that subject wthte greates delicacy anid 'caution;. Sir GEORGE COOKBTRN would not apei to either of the Iron. members to know wlhetheIr the sijech which heh&d4he honour of making to tile house in the courie of lIst session wits satisfaclidrv Dr not tpthe officers in tibesxvli6. Tbere'wire several abie andlex'- perienreed'officcrs in the house--if they were prepared td, say that ther ~*s an thng n th reisrs whichi he. then. riadle whii Writdisgreblto he ervce enrallY, ldt them get up and saserit mnfuil. Heimselws ntimate with sonie officers of theseric, ad pobblyha asmuc eperenc t gudehim, as eble iremers.Whatlie hd thn adance, henow repeated, hat while the road of promotion. was kep open to mer7ait, d enter- prise, however obscure the istation sdoinofte parties' the navy would feel no jealousy whateverateig'esnofrnad wendition promoted ainong them. Thewreouswhcvrty were placed. They were of use to the nav.Te eeo ra ase in that house. (Loud cheers rmteopsiinbn e. The ships were as capable, and the ofceshewudonnr,ee more capable, than at any tTqrner perid hr a- icivu practice of those good old times to whihtehn ebraldd which now existedno Io e,f Ityi hi ohes rwn-om being put on a ship's books, antiIthus serving their time wtotee being at sea; and it was in the memory,, of tiuany persons, that in the; Americain war, we had post-captains of 17 years of age; but now no' nian could be made post till he was of Proper age. Then it was in the power of' in adni to'nmake his son or his; nephew a lieutenant it 16 or 17 years of age, but newv thlere was a pointed and difficult ixamination to go through, and if the candidate was nat sufficien tly skiled in na ption to sail the ship without the assistance of the maste, he cou It not be mnade a lielintenant. Wlith regard to the nasters, of the impediments to whose promotion thehon. member :rnmplabied, it was to be observed, that no other officer could become ro at once; a lieutenant could not be mrade, nor pursers or surgeons ettain their respective ranks, withiout ig through the pfevious eteps, in the royal navy but a master, if lieV had sailed in a mer. -liaunt ship and was cmipetent, m-ight be made a maaster at once; and Sn that accounit it was tliou&ht, hut just that to that rank he should te restricted, unless he disttnguishied himself. With respect to dis, dpline, the liron. nrember should not mislead. the house by assertingI that boys might flog the men that power was in the hands of the aptain onlvy; and as it was a power necessary, the liouse would see hat it couia not be lod~ed in more proper hands. Sir F. OAIMANNliY defended the vo!e proposed, and e~;pressed ais intention of voting for it. Captain MIABERLY said, that when we were assured by his Mfajesty's speech thiat our foreign re!aibs were never in a more macite state, and whern it wvas apparent thait the late Suanish colo. ries of South America could not be reconquered by the. mother munn try, without foreign assistance, he couild not see with what faee mny honourable gentcliemen could justify the augmentiation proposed in that ground. An honourable MxtrNBER under tire gallery declared, that South America wvas the prlace which peculiarly required aii addi- tional force. Mlr. HUME said, he had heard niothing to justify the aiugimenta. tion, if a proper distribution of the existing force were made. The Pgallant officer (Sir George C-ockburn) hiad argued as it' it were the ex,amination of officers8which impeded tire lrromotior. Certainly, if the officer were not conrpettnt, he ought not to be promoted, but the order in council didl not hold that language; it said, that no master shouild be eligible to be examinedI for promotion.. The ipeechr w'hiiclr tire g-allant ohic-ar delivered last year, was certainly cal. ,ulated to create dissatisfaction in the breast of ever officer in the 4avy ; and firone every comimunication whicir he (0Jr. H une) had sad with officers, it appeared to have produced that effect, and iurely nothing else.could have been expected from the gal'lant off- ,er s declaratron thiat the sons of noblemen anid gentlemen were, as Sf course, to be promoted after serving their time. (No, no, from .he Ministerial benches.) That, at least, was his understanding of he gallat officer's spreech. If he (Sir George Cockburri) had then aid noting but what be had now said, he (M1r. Hume) would not rave found faUlt wYitl itL 'With regard to the proposedl augatenta- ion, lie took the speech of his fMajesty wo be true, and that this coun. ry never had a better prospect of the continuancee of pe-ace it was uipossible, thierefore, for hiur (Mr. Hums) to sec any reason for an nerease of our naval force. Sir G. COCKB3URN tu-idthere never was amoreboldmisrepresenta- ion than that wvhichi the hon. member for Aberdeen had made of his Sir G. Cockbuirnl's speech of last session. It was impossible for mny one to suppose that he could have said that the son of everZ .ohleinan and man of fortune xhould be made directly he had sev uis time; he was in the recollection of the house, and on that he vould rest, for he should be ashamed if it were necessary to discuss he point. AUl his argument was, that providedproe attention ens paid to inerit and services, the navy did not feelj'e'alrous that a ruortion of nroblemen shiould belong to their profession. M'1%r. CANNING said he per-fectly remembered the speech of the ;allant officer alluded to by the hon. member fur Aberdeen, and tire scupos'tion contained in it was certainly very different fromn that de.. jivered from the opposite side of thelhouse. Indeed, it was imposat- sle that any man in his senses, in this free country, could say that .anrk or birth hadl any claim to be promoted as a mnatter of course. rhe propoartion he inade was, that for thiegood of the wholeprofession, ,twas desirable that the general respectability of it slirould he main- slend by anL intermixture of men of rank and birth with those of merit andl service; and this intermi-xture was necessary even for the ,ced of those whose merits and services were all they had to rely Lspon. They might feel disappointment at being passed over, hut they would be conivinced that the interest of the whole profession was best promoted by the milxture of self-created merit with siereditar claimns. It was this species of intermixture that made all clases clinig together in this free country. It was lesirable to allure men of rank from the ease of their fire- tides into a toilsomen profe~ssioni, with something like a parti-al con- tiderstion, provided it lild not interf'ere with thie claims of those who bad only their meritu and services to depend on for their bread. Any proscription, so far from ennRobling the navy, would degrade it from the rank it held at present as the profession, not only of men of' gallantry and skill, but of gentleinen. He would take this 3pportunity to say, in explanation of a passage of HIls i1laajesty's ipech which had been alluded to, that there~ never was a period in whch this country midght with greater certainty expect a. continu. %neeca ofpeace ; but it must be clearly seen, that threre never was a period in which there was so much agtation ; and it was necessary, ,iot only that we should ourselves be satisfied, but that the COn-' riction should prevail in all parts of the world, that the couatry yould be ready to nraintain its rights. Hle might thcrefore,without nak-ing any disclosure, say that in the thlre gret stations, the Me- literraneari, the WVest Indies, and now-Soth Arncrica, it was ne- :essary to have an increased force, as those quarters could not be con- idered without seeing the possibility, of events arising which might equire our initerference, not only with a strong hand, but with 'rowpttude and vigour ; and, as the right hon. harL. observed, who ,ad made so aible a statement in moving the estimates, it was our luty to hiave the Britisli force equal to any and it mightt be neces- ;ary in soume places even to outnumber al' others. If gentlemen couxld takie the trouble to calculate the numbers ruecessary to usake he adldition required, he believed they wouldhbe found rathler un,der h?n exceeding the necessity ; and they maight found on this vot an idditional confidence of peace, becuse, if that confidence did not rxist, the present vote would he insujfficient. Alr. HUMlE expressed his intention not to divide the committee. The amendment was then put, and negatived without a division, mln thre original resolution- For granting 885,950L for w4scs for 29,000 inen was agreed- to. The following resolutions were then agreed to : ?584,350 for victuals, at thenrate of I Is., a mans per month. ?282,750 for wear antl tear. X94,000 for ordinance for the sea service Sir GEORGE CLBRh now proposedi to move the ordinary esti-. nates. Mr. HUME had not had an opportunity of lookfi~g to the esti- nates, and put it to the bonouirable baronet whether it WOuld be fair 0o pres them forward now. Sir GEORGE CLElRK consentecl to postpone them. The resolutions were then agreed to, and the report ordered to be' urought up on Wednesday next. On the motion of Mir. Go1JLBl)aR1Z, the committee on the Irish aw courts bill was Pspned to Wednesday next. RElSIDENCE OF THE IRISH CLBRGY. l'rlr. GOUJLBUJRN rose to move for leave to bring in a hill to ximpel, as far as was possible, the residense of the clergy of Ireland Lpon their-benierices Hie did not thirrlc it necessary upon this coca- ion to dletain the liouse very. long by explaining the pa-iticulars of he measure which he proposed. ~Ta one would deny that the icr4i Ience of the clergvy was in all countries, beneficial to the. irha. ditants; it was obvious that the prAcdcte was still more-neces- ary in Ireland, because the greater and more difficulties unider ehich that country labourcad, the more requisite was it that a vigialant ittentdon should be paid to the wants of its inhabitants.. There was mnother point of view in whichi the residenrce of the Irish clergY ;eensed no lear important; not only were they called upon to per- 'orm the offices of religion, hut inl consequence of the absence of ithe ,eurry, other duties devolved upbn them, and they were required to ninisterto other tanthe spiritual wan3ts ofthe people. The object if the bill which he proposed to introduce was to ehbect this. In ;ome c-ases he was aware that the residence must be-disperased With. rhese were eitlher whez ttire incumbents were compelled to re. ide on other parts of their bens4ces, or where the infirmities if natusre caused their absence. Hle proposed to limit thescases to ,uchi as were strictly unavoidable, and to take care that~an adequaLte trovision should alwmays; be made for the administration of thie in. :umbent's duties, Iy an adequate prevision, he not only meantt Per- ons who should be.duly qualifed by their mnoral character and ac- ~trirements, to be ministers of religion, but that their stipends shouldl te suitable to the rank they would hold, and the duties they would ie ex'pected to perform. I-e would, theretbre, sthortly state to the touse, that the form of the bill would &_ in'- most respects] t would considerably narrow the grounds upon which a plea ,f exemption eould be allowed,- and provide that the stipends if the curates should be proportioned to the value of the benefices, and to the extent of the populatioL under their care. The house could therefore, probably excuse him, from stating ieriatirn the everal provisions of the bill, and he thought be should best onsult its convenienceby movingfor leave to bring in. a.bill to con- oli4ate and amnetd the laws relating to the residence of 5pirituail tersons on their benefices; to restrain such persons from engaging. n trade or merchandise; and to provide foT thLe stipendiary ctrattes a Ireland. Sir J. NEWPORT cxpressed bis readiness .to concur in any icasure which should be calculated to carry into efibct the object if the right hon. gentleman. and he thought thebest meais of ac- *mplraling thatobject would be by pre-eatingthe beneficed clery roin holding pluralities. There were mstances inmwhich clergymen, aready hollina five or 'six, andcven. ten benefices, had obtained fa. :ultiesbywhictheywerepermitted touniteto those beneficestthreeor our more parishes. By a reference to the episcopalreturns,,it would me foand among others that Lord ViscoDnt lfford,in the Deanery of krmagh, held four parishes, in which duty vwas performed, and that ie waa in posession of 388 acres of glebe ; he held also four other inarishea, Rnd in right of dhem 297 acres of glebe; but in these' latter sarishes no duty wfas performed. There WaS also another living in mother diocess, consisting of five parishes, ink noine of which there vas aglebe house, although thererere 240 acres of glebe land. In the iocess of-Clogher 'there was enjoyed, in right-of a living,h '0 acre 9f glebe land, thouh no g]ebe huse; oard it tb4t of Reithli5 fve prevented from dofn wy'obyhezaci'o he 21stof 6Geo. IL, ;;ij forbids such dijiptions, that the value 6f ecclsisutlcal digaine, My!ht not bedimiVisihed. !IM!r.. JJJi1IE expressed his fear that no good eouId be done wiiia, the preaent system lastad. Until the overgrowrn incemes which Win at present enjoyed by i lividuala who did nodifin should bi reduced onefoburth he -mist consider such rneasures as that nsa ptoposed to oe little etter than -ptching up, not remedying the im GonvenieDGcc Air. DAWSON deprecated any sttempt to interfere witb h church property of Ireland, und bore testimony to the valuable serv vices of the ele of that country. Colonel TRE CH said a few words in support or- the motion. Mlr. BUTTERWORTH also supported the motion, end bon tcstimony, from his own personal experience, to the necessity eo greater number of clergymen in Jreland. Ir. GOUILBURN replied, and said, -that he should forbeavf1ot entering into the details of the bill, upon sthe obi3ect of which he presumted the house vas agreed-namely, that ii was highlvgde, sirable to make the residence of the. cergy as general-as Possible and where it was not possible, that an adequate substitutte should b- provided: with an adequate iutomne..-,eave was then given to bisg un the buil. : WELSII JUDG3ES3 Mr. JONES moved for leave to bring in a bitllto extend the pwec of Judgs in Wlesw- wavews given, and the bill read a first tmee TnrON N WORT ae notice, thathle should move o. Tucdvnext for leave to brgin a bilto repeal the set of the 21st of GFeorge IL., chap. 8, restraining the bishops of Ireland froei diminishing the vaiue of ecclesiastical dignities. CRUELTY TO ANIMtALS. - -Mr. R. MARTIN brought up a bill to amend an act of thec ? Oeorge lV., to prevent the improper treatmnent of catt3e..It Wsg read a first timne, and ordered to be read a second time on the 2d o' March. The other orders of tbco day were then disposedI of, and the hooszs adjourned at a quarter o nine o'clock.o ' 6 _ _ _ __ . _ . _ A_ B 'e HflTTSF OF COMMON'S MONDAY, FE3. 16.