House Of Commons, Tuesday...
The Times, 1824-02-11T00:00:00

The CHANUBLVI.A l 0 e o. . . the houtse his Maiesty?s..mostgradou5an3werto their address, whichl, after being read, was oredered to be entered on the journals. Mlr. GRE'NFELL moved for a returm of the number of Ban-.. nowes and Bank post biUs in weekly circulation, from the 24th ot April, 1824, down to the latest petiod at which such return could be made up; aLso for a retum of the quantity of copper import$I into Great Britain during the year ending 3Ist December,. l8j, stating from what countries it was impoorted, and at what potts it arrived: also for a return of the quantity of copper exported from .Great Britain, to what countries, and from what ports-Orderei. 1r. Cb'RTEIS moved for a retuin of all Noltial-graih and-3.neal in wvarchouses under lock, stating the quantity at each port, and dils. tinguishing Loridon from the outports. Lord LOWTHBER presented two petitions f.om the occupiers of I sheep-farmsa in Wesanorland, praying for protection against the im. prter of' woollen ragS to be used in the manufacture of cloth. I Mr. CURWlEN Dresented a petition, praying for a repeal of the duty on hephc' ilogs T7he uty, he said, was of !lfling &tQiaW.t; but wag Yery unequilly ilii ibulted, pTi8sinlg entirely oii tile farmers ill unenclosed. counties. Mr. S. BOURNE moved for a return of all sunms of monev ex- pended dulring the last year br the maintenance of the poor in the different parishes of EnglandI and Waler.-Ordered. -DISCR TIONARY POWER OF THlE MAGISTRATES UNDER THE VAGRANT ACT. Mr. HUME said, that he had a petition to present to the hous~, whichl he consideredi of peculiar importance, as it related to an in terference with the liberty of the subject, to which the country of late bad unfortunrately become too much accustomed, The petition came from ant indivdual wvho complained of the improper use miade of the discretionary power vented in the magistrates by the vagrfant act of last session. The petitioner, on the 7th of last September, 'was returning in the evening to his own houtse from Claphiam, where he bad been upon private business. In passing thirougih one of thle allies of the metropolis, he was accostedi by a womani, who askedi Ihim if he kniew the way to Brick-lane. Whilst he was an- swering hier question, the watchman came up, accusedl them of violatingf thie decency of the place, and took them both off im- mediately to thle watchhouse. It was evident from whiat the -watchman saidl as he was taking the parties to the watch-house, tha-t he had apprehended them for no other purpose than to extort money; for he repeatedIly observed to them that he only got five shillings for apprehending them, an observation which led the petitioner to believe that, if he had halipened to have had 10 shillings in his pocket, and to have offered themn to the watchman, 'he could have freed himself from the charge witaouit any dlifli-ulty. The point to which he chiefly wished to call the attention of the House, was the conduct of Sir Daniel Williams, thz magistrate be- fore whom the petitioner was brought the enstabu) day. The watch- man wast sworn, and told his story; and tupon hiis oath alone, hoth the petitioner and thewosru anb- had a ccosted him, were condemnedl to one month's imprisonment and. hard labour 2at the treadi-mill, (hear. bear,) both of them disacliming all exposure of their persons, antii the watchmani himself admitting that the alley in whicli he foundi them, was a dark lonely place, that there was no ,liglst eithier from the moon or lamnps; ana that he had been obliged to look at themn alosely with .his lamp, before he could dliscover what thiey wvere doing. Now, under Any interpretation of the clauses of the vagrant act, relative to indecent exposures of the person, lie thiought this was a harsh decision, especially as both the parties whom it affected affir-meda that there was nothing indecent in their dress and gerstures. The conduct of Mr. Swabey and Sir D. Wiilliamis. ivith re. spect to cases of this nature, liadl beeni fully detailed to the public by the press and h.rc was satisfiedi that there wvas no loan, let his opinioni be whfat it miight regartling the vaqgrant act, who would state hiei approbation of the mannier in. whicli those justices had k'terciead the dliscretionary powers whbich they received unde- it.(Hear, hiear.) He was sorry to say that there was no rete7tlation by which it couldI be a-scertained whien bail* ,could h-e take,-% and whien not, but that it remained a question whaich the W.agiqtdte cletcrnmned according to his own pleasuire. They all Icnew th' at in a recent case, wvhich excited general disgust and ab. horre.-.Le.. an eminent prelate was admitted to bail, though hiis guilt 'wa'. establishedI by the imost satisfactory evidlence. (Hfear, hear. Ino acase, however, of still more recent date-lie believed it occurred; only thr-ee days ago-an individual whio hadl hitherto borne an linimzpeachable character wais apprehiendedI on a clharge of receivinig &lnts into his nursery, knowing that they were stolen fromi the Royal Gardens att Kew. Men of the first respectability camne for- ward to speak of the general correctness of hsis conduict, and bail wvas tendere-d to any- amount for his appearance to) aniswer the charge at the sessions. But no; tlhe magistrate would niot Ileat tt ball, and to prisoin the man went like a commion felon. Qf1ear, hear.) Suich a surprising difference in the practice of thle Thag-istrates miade it neecssary that somnesuperintending power shiould he diligently employed in observing it. (Hear.) As the Secretary of State for the Home Departmnent was the person who appointed the mnagistrates, and who was atithorizedi to suspend them in case of miis- conduct, he thouzght that this superintendinwg power should be exer- cisied by, as it wats undloubtedly vested in, that department. (Hear.) Ile knew that it was inipossible to lay (town ruiles for the guidance of magistrates in all cases; but that verv impossibility render. r1d it doubly imiperative on those whio appointed thiem, to employ great care and diligence in selectingi proper per- -ons to fill such sitiations. lit was well worthiy of notice, thiat in every case hut the present, in which plarties lhad been committed to prison, under the vagrant act, for imnproper exposure of their persons, reliefbhad been granted them upronaipplication to the Honie Secretary In this case, hiowever, no relief had been granted by the righ hourable secretary, perbaps because none hiad been ever asked fo.Tepetitioner, after ilils cae was dlecided by Sir D. WVilliams, -as taken to the tread-mill. H-e was tent there on the Alondav, and it was Thursday before lie was& enabled to give any of his family in- timationi of the fate which had befalleni him. His friends, know*ing hiim to be a marn of good character, immediately obtained a warrant, anti brought him again before Sir D. WVilliams, for the ptsrpose of ppaing from his decIsion to the sesnions. This step rould not, }'owev=Ier,be taken wtitliout incurring an expense of 151. (hear), and for l-ie Trepayment of that sum his labour for thie next year was iinortgaged rohisfriends. (Hear.) Thesesionscameon: theappeal washeard, and thiepra4secution waisin consequence quashed. (Hiear.) Sucshwas ,he case -with respect to the petitioner ; but wlhat was it withi respect to the wroman, who was committed alonig withi him I? She coulsl lnoeniuster 1.61. to pay for the liberty to appeal, and wats ini conse- (tuence compelled to, submiit to the punishmient to whirli shec had been sientenced. (Hear, hear.) "1 I ask," cointinued thie honourable mnember. "1what kind of justice th'is is ? We have laws to protect us from injury, but if we have not mo-iey to purchase their protec. dion, it appears that their protection will not be givers to us." (Hear.) le contended, that if the right honpuTable secretary would not, or ilid not, superintend the conduct of the imagistrates whbomi lie him.i i-elf appointed, t'he lhouse must undertake that dtyv. Hle dric not mean to say that time right honourable genitleman would not lhave given relief to the petitioner, if it had been appLied for b-sit he mneanit to sty this,-that the house was hound to prevent the recurrence of cases which rendered application to him necessary on the part of the subject. (Hear.) He had put this petition some time ago into the hands of the right hon. secretary, in order that lie inighnt inqnr into the particulars which it detailed; and if in the courve of the inquiry the right hnon. secretary had discovered any circumnstanceR of extetiuationm in this infraction of the law of the land and the liberty of the subject., lie (Mr. iFlume), for one, shouild be happy to hear them. The circumstances which this case developed could nomt fail to suggest certain considerations as to the manner in *vihch he aidmagstrtesof he etrpolis performed their duties. He ws srryto sy tat hey pperedlax in their duty, when com. ard wththemaistate o th cty of London. He had re. ccivd aprined ape fro on ofthe sheriffs, which shiowed howcauiou sh latermagstrteswere of sending individuals to aplae whre hei chaactr mst almost inevitably con- tract a stain and where if vrtuous, they rani a great hazardI at beinil containated by the infamous society with which they wtre comp.elled to mningle. The paper to whlich' he hadl alluded was a comnarative statement of the nuxmber of commnitments and convic- tions from London and fromn Middlesex. During the year ending in las;t D)ecember., there had been 1.1652 persons committed by the nuazistratescof'AMiddlesex. Of thepersons brought totrial outof this mu.tnber. after sufferinz all the contagion of ba~d example, 4781 were ncquitted ; against 195 bills were riot found and 261 were not pro. secutedi; sn that there was an aggregute of 699 commitmients in one Year, withoutt adeoquate cauise, to that siiik of iniquity the Old Bal- ley. (Hear.) Now he wouldl ask, was it nothing that 700 persons shoutld be thus s'tbmitted to thie hazard of moral pa1l ution Would those call it nothing who were always preac'hing uip she necssit y of giving a high tone to the moral feelinigs of the lower orders' (Hear, hear.) Whiat he principally complained of was this,-..that the stipendilarv magistrates were guilty of imiattention to the cases which came before them, and that they didi not employ requisite diligence in 'sifting the evidence sub- mittedl to them. During the samne period of time in which these IJ1152 cowlmitme-tst took place in Middlesex, there had beeni 420 comnmitments by the mameistrateu of L-ondon. Out of this number aothv 79 were acquitted, though the-re were .96 cases in whichi bills were not fouind. (Shear.) He was informedthat the proportion of ac- ottittals to commnitment-s was larger in the last year thian it had been for many prePvious years;, but even so, it was not one-fourth of the numTber of comnmitmncms, whereat in Middlesex it was very nearly one-half. (Hear.) As lie was qupon this siubject, hewoald cursorily ri:mark, thiat it was his intention in a very short time to monve for a return of the nuimber of persons commited from each pillice-offico. specifying the numbers committedt by each magistrate anid he sthould make that motion in order to give the public proper mraterials on which so form their opinion of suech men a-, Mr. Dyer, Mir. Swabe y. and '4ir D. Williams. (Hear.) In niaking these oh. servrtations. he had no wish to cramp the magistrate in the pro per dischiarge of lilt dutv ; all he wantedl was, to miake titens feel that their authority ought to be kept under prommer control. The sale object for whici fie had addressted the house, was to submit to it 'What recompense, what remuneration it would affort! the petitioner fo hesima whic'h hadl been fixedl on his character by the incon- siderate conduct of Sir D. Williamns. That was one of the points which the petitioner urged in hiis petition. He also implored thle ltiuve to aiiord himn such redress as would enable him to repay liis firiends for the pecuniary exertions whiich they had kindly made in his be:half, withoat mortgagicng his labourfor the ensuing year. He beggedt p-rts-in for havinq intruded so long upon the house (hear, hear); he would inot have donie it, hnad he not considered the petition to beoone of vast importance, and to deserve its favourable consideration. As to the womnan, let them again and again consider the tunfortunate si- tusaion in whichi she hail been placed. The persn with whom she' wats accused of having violated puiblic decenicy was declared to be not guilty of such an ofFence ; what, thien, was her crime, arid forI 'what was she to be i mpritoned ? If she were innocent, could any v thene be more unmerited lUhan the treatment wyhich she had received?l (Hear, hear.) He was aware, that before the last vagranit act, it was left in the discretion of the miagistrate to commit individluals as va- grants on the oath of a single person. That discretion, he thtought, ought not to be continued; and as the act wouldi expire next Sep. tomber, if it were not renewed this session, he tTustedl that some ameandment would be made to it, dlepriving the magistrate of this discretionary power. The power was not 'so like,' to be exercised tinder the late acts, as it was under the present; for it ought not to he forgotten, that the present gave the policeosfficer a reward of five shillings foir everyv vagrant hie apprehend(ed, and thus offered himn a premium" fort every inf'raction he might make on the liberty of the su5siect. H3e then moved that the petition be brought up. 1r., DAWSON declared his ;intentionof not rep)lying,at present against the vagrant act. That act would expire in the course of the Year, and on the motion to renew it. if anv such were made, its merits and tIemnerits would be fairlv taken into consideration. He had inquired into the cireiumstances of this case, and he could assure the house that the petitioner had no hardship to complain of. It nppe red tihat the p mttionert as gointh to his home at a very lats hour ia the nigat, w h ee inet rith the woinan in huestion, who las well known as a common prostitute. At the time ihe watchman caught them, they were guilty of as open an exposure of their pereons as could possibly be imagifed. The watch,man deposed to the facts. The petitioner did notventureto deny them; aU he said was, that the watchman had trumped up the story to extortmoney. Thatcould ant. howgever, be the case, as he. was not entitled to, nor did he re. a ive, the fve shillings for their apprehension. He therefore trust- ed that the house would not thinik that the magistrate had acted irn- properly upon this occasion. He would only add, that the merits of the case were not entered into at the sessionsbut that it was quash- eV upon a legal technicality. Mlr. LITTLETON rose to cautioni the hoe1se against attributing tn his honourable friend, the member fda StaWford, who had framed the vagrantact, any harslmess which tll.tmagistrates had shown in carrying it into execution. The object orhis hon. friend had been to mitigate the severity of the former VA#ant act; and he was sure that any gentleman who would turn his attention to the subject, would see that it was considerably mitigated. Fonnerly the ma- fistrates had the power of sentencing to transportation for seven years; at presept thev could not sentence to more than two years' imprsonirfient. Formerly, whipping could be inflicted by ihe order of one nisgistrate; now it could not be infl;cted, except by an order of a bench of magistrates at the quarter sessions. He then proceeded to defend the prineiple of-the vagrant act, and to re- quest hloo=able gelntlemncn to withiold their attacks upon it until his hob. friend, the ~inorer.ior gtiA who Was n10W a'oaeatg from indispositionl. was, present to answer-them. Mr. PEEli observed, that the honourable memnber 1w]r adverted to a Mrat mnany subjects, the importance of wliceh he dia not mnean tO uindervaluc ; but lie was sorry on accoount of their importance, that he shotuld have introdluce-d diierm when presenting a petition, 'without givin.% a previous intimation to those who might have given some expianation, if the facts had been clearly stated tothem. The con5tlunfication of the honoiurable gentleman to him (Mlr. Peel) lhad rather misled im rtha.n otherwisae. He certainly had placed thiepe- titian in his hands, and stated that he was going to present it; biut he did not say that he intended to comment on the conduct of the magiastrates, or to introducea aniy observations withi reference to the Homne Departmnent. This indiv-idual never sen' an eti. tion, PraYing for a remission of his sentence, neither did tiepweol. man matce any representation on the subject,4 and therefore he had no opportunity of applying to the Crown. Some cases had un- doubtedly occurred under the vagrant act, which he dleemed worthy of examination, and interference; but of the case now uinder ceasliferation, he'knew nothing, and therefore he had not taken any Steps re-specting it. He wondered, howvever, that the hon. mnember shiould attack- thie discretion of the magistrates on this occasion at the same time he admitted that the subject was very proper to be in. quired into, but not in this incidental mnanner. I'ie petitioner was accse of an in~decent exposure of his person, and the fact having bee swon to, he was committed. Now, what did he allege against the witness in riis petition ? He said, that watchmen were praverbial for their poverty, cupidity, and ignorance. (At laugh.) Therefore, as it was acoammon proverb, that watchmen were tlistinguished by poverty, cupidity, and ignorance, no person ouight to be c'onvicted on the oath of one of themi. (A laugh.) It was verywel fo th peitinerto xplin is deaof the probity of those persns;but fa atcman f rod caraterswears before a megis- trae tat e sw prsos ofeningaganstthe lawv, the magistrate mustat' ecesityconict.It ws aothe mater wliether it was fitting thatthemagstray soul hav suh adiscretion as that which they enjyeduner hisac. Tat ata vrydiffrent question.. The ho. noulrable member had referred to-the hiome department, wit-h respect to the reward which was allowed for convictions unEder this act. Now it was9 very true, that by the late act, the sum of 5s. was allowed . beti by, the former act, the rewvard was l0s. (hear) ; so that there was a IlSSerning, instead of ani increase of reward, upon coniviction. ( [fear.) Hel, hoiwever, thouight thiat this was not to he considered as a positive fine, to go to the mninor officers of justice ini all cases ; and Soon alter the passing of the act he Saw the magistrates, and im-. pressed on their minds that it was a matter of discretion whether the finie shotild or should, not be granted to the officer. It was for themn, in exercising that discretion, to consider whethier the indivi. dual had, actedi from a semise rf public justce ormrl from a de.. sire of receiving thle rewardl; and he directed them not to certify to the pariah in anyv case where Ithe individual inaking the allegation seemned to be actuated by the desire of gain. Certainly. when the vagrant act came under the considteration of the housc.-although he knew the intenition of the hon. member who brought it in was% entirely to benefit the public, andI the public, he conceived, ought to he much obliged to him-still the-re were some parts of it on which he meant to suibmit certaini aimendments, particularly the clause relative to indecent exposuire. (Hear.) lie thought there was noIt a more flagrant offenice than that of indecently exposing the per- soni, thiicli had been carried to an immense extent in the Parks, whiere virtuous femnales hiad been shamefully insUlted : hut wanton exposuire was a very dlifferent thiing from accidental exposure. There ouglit, thierefore, to' be a more distinct and definite line drawn be- tween exuesure, the effect of accident, and exposure, the result of ilitention;. At present there was no discretion. On conviction, the mzagistrate nmust comomiit for a Mon1th. His object was to invest the ma'gistrate withi a tliscretionary power, which wotild enable binsi to comimit for a Shorter period. (Hear, hear.) Such an alteration nighlt be effecctedI without trenching on the priniciple. (Hear, hlear. Hea agreed in the observation of the hois. gen. tat rea cae oghtto e tkenin thte selection of persons to art s stpendary agisrate; an he ust tak-e some credit, both on ehaf o hi prdeessr ad hmsef,for actingoni thoge prin- cipls whch ere ikey toensre aproer anid effcient selection. Formrly'almot an indvidul wa cosideredI eligible for the offie. ut ord idmutl andlielai itdown ais a sine q2ta moon, that those whio were placed in the situation ot' stipeRdiary magis. trates slhould hiave practisedl three years at the bar, and must, thecre- fore, enter on ttie duties of their diffice with a competenit knowledge of the law. He never knew of any arrangement, with respect to the appointm-ent of stipendiary mnagistrates, except that of selecting thiose persons whio were the best recommiiended, anid requiring that the parties shiould have practised at the bar. The hoinourable gentlemian liat commented very much on the conduact of some of those who held this situation, whien acting in their magisterial capa- city,. He had introducedI the names of.61 r. Dyer and of Air. Swabey. He hotgh i t wouldi have been as well, when thie hon. gentlemant mnindto h4im (Air. Peel) that he would present this petition, if lie hiad also stated, "1 I imean to introduce those cases, andl I now give you the informatioin, that you may have ani opportunity of ar- ranging what you may hiave .to say, on tlhe subject." But as these cases were smut properly before the house, he thiought it would be as uinwise a% it was unnecessary to notit'e them fuirther; and therefore he would avoidI that topic. The hon. gent. observed, that A'l r. Dyer liad takeni mioderate bail from one individual, whilst he had refused to receive bail from another. But the lhon, gent. did not Seem to have inquired as to the distinction that mnight have existed be- tween the eases. He didl not state whethier th e one case might not have been a miisfiemeanour, and therefore bailable; whilst the other might have have come under the provision of a statute that was imeaive on the miagistrates. Now hie must contend that in the caewere bail was refused, the niagistrate had no discretion to ex- ercise ; anid though in time othier case the mAoral offence might have bteen deeper and more degrading yet the magistrate must deal with it as the law directed : he could not proceed to consider the imoral distinctions of crime. (Heat.) As to the committals by the ma-. gistrares, the prima fhiae statement-, of' the difference was very im. portant, and deserved inquiry. But, on account of its importatnce, the hon gn.oht to have given notice thab emat obigi forward. Ile hiad not statedl whether any of the committals werein xectio, a oin whch as f g_reat importance. Hle had merly aid soniny erecomittd,and so many convicted. But, suppsmetha a artof hos peson wee committed in execution, it as nTmossbletha thre oul beany subs4equent conviction. Thi wa imortnt o b cosidred ad the bonourable gentleman ough to ave sceraine thefactAsiowever, the honourable gentleman would in the course of a few Aasmove for accounts on the subject, it would be be better that the wole question shiould be then debated. WVhen the honourable gnlmnbrought forward a distinct mnotion on the subject, he shouldb ed to meet it, and to tir e to the hiouse every information wic col,with propriety, be demanided ; for he coufld assure the houe thtGvernment had no motiVe Whnatsoever for mystery or concealment. ~,ear.) Time petition of (as we understood) Willa I'ochpole was then brought up and read. Mlr. HUM a B, in rising to move that the petition be laid on the t'ble and printedl, wished to make a few obser-vations on what had Fallen from the right lion, secretary. The petition averred that the ac. roainrested on the statement of one man, and he arguied that his s-oice, in rebutting the acusation, was as igoad as that of the person who advanced it. He denied the correctness of the accessation alto- zethier. In what hie had addtressedi to the house, he beggedI leave to soy that he had not attached thie slightest blame to the Home-office. DOn the contrary, he observed that he believed every thing was pro- perly conducted. As to the courise of proceeding which was to be atdopted wehen a miotion or a petition was to be brought for- meard, i-f the right hornourable secretary wished to hear his (Air. Hwnes) peeh bfor liedelverd i tothe hiouse, he could rasiy olig hi. Itwoud, oweer,be somewhiat inconve- nien, ifall ime bseratios w icmust necessarily grow out ~ ucha ubjct er sumitedto he igt hon. secretary. With rrseccto hecomittls al th idivduasbehad mentioned were * they had, he thought, heard enough fromtergthn ther ueta ,t ithow that the individual had been harl rae.Telw fi wyere allowed to remain in its present stae was calculate opo luce very great inconvenience. He wol as, in on hog h 5treets of London, crowded as they weewt feml,whteon of thiemselves might not be polaced in th Sam siuto sthis indi- vidual '? (Laughter.) If any of them were asked by a woman to Point out her road, he would not be much of a gentleman if he refused that act of politeness. The petitioner stated, that he was to accosted, and there was no evidence to proye that such was not the "aet. The right lion, secretary admitted that the law wanted re- vision, and lie hoped the public would benefit by the alteration. Air. PEEI, never meant to Say that the petitioner's was an aces. lerotal exposure. There were some exposures which might be acem- lental: but he thought, assuiifing the guilt of the petitioner-(Mr. Hlume-" Assuming the guilt !") .LYes, the hon. gent. hos assumed hie petitioner's innocence on his own allegationi. Nowr, assuming 'is gmuil, liae couldl not think, he was hardly dealt with. The hon. cent, ought to excuse the imperfection of his (31 r. Peel's) answer, as it bad not received notice of the m-atters that would be brought 'orward. The igallery was cleared for a division on printing the petition, mUt the house did not divide. COMBINATION LAWVS. AIlr. S. WORTLEY presented a petition from the artisans and abourers who wvork for hire in the town of Barmsley, in Yorkshire, iraying for the repeal of the combination laws.-Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. PAPERS RELATING TO) TIfLE STATE OF IRELAND. Lord ALTHORP sAId, in offering himself' to the house, as having undertaken a task of considerable importanice, perhaps, some apology wouild be required of him, for calling the notice of Parlia. ment to a portion of the em pire with whichi he had no connexion whatever. But he thought he hiad an apportunity of doing somne good ny riously applying himself to thieconsiderato fth tr of ;eand; odefelttlhatitwas,as much the business and duty of Englishi as of Irishi members of Parliament to use their uttmost exer- tions for the benefit of the people of that country. (HWar.) Hde hoped, therefore, he Should not be suipposed to have travelled out of his line, in undertaking the introduction of thois subject. (Hear.)' It was his intention, at a later period of the session, to submit a motion on the State of Irelandi generally, and therefore he now called for car. tain papers which were intirnately.connected wvith that subject. The resat points On which he equired iniormatien were,-the amount of the revenue of Ireland-the situation of the church. as to the number of resident clergymen..and the mode in which the laws. allowing Roman Catholics to hold certain offices had been executed, together with a specification of the offices which they were so entitled to fill. As to the revenue of Ireland, it might be said that information on that head could be procured from the papers now before the house. But every one must know, that unless it were brought together, in a shorter compass, for general observation, it would not be attended with that good effect which ought to be derived from it. It, therefore, there was noobjection,he would move for " a return of the gross and net amount of the revenue of customs and excise n Ireland, for two years, ending the 5th of January, 1824; enunme- rating the articles on which the said revenue was charged." He would next move for "a return of the amount of money levied by grand jury presentments, for the same period." To that he con- ceved there could be no objection, as those presentments formed a part of the charge of Ireland, and it was desirable that its extent should be known. The next point on which he would call for in- formation respected the residence of the clergy. He conceived it to be impossible for any man to look to the state of Ire- land,. and not feel the necessity of having a resident clergy. If, as they must all be convinced, it was of great import- ance to have a good resident clergy in this country, it was infi- nitely more impowtau;t, situated as Ireland was, that there should be an efficent resident cergy there. The landed proprietors in England were far more Tnumerous than thoe in Irelaiad, and it was of primary importance that mnen of fortune should be induced, as far as possible, to reside in the latter country, and to do every thing in their power to promote its welfare. He could quote the instance of a reverend person who had lately, and he believed veryproperly, been promoted to the see of Limerick, to prove the utility of a resident clergy. That revercnd person, during his residence in his parish in Lime- rick, acted so prudently, that notwithstandintc the confusion which reigned around, 'no vutrages occurred in that portico. lar parish. He was not at all acquainted with Dr. Jebb, the slhhop to wlsomihe alluded, but hc knew that what he tiad stated wasfounded on fact. He should move for "a list of the pa- risbes in elaind, with thel names of tbeir respective incumbents. distinguishing those where -the ineumbents. were non-residents." Another polot, aind a very grt one, on which he would move for inforraifon, was "the state of the church property in Ireland." No person c&sld suppcse tbat he eherished any wish to weaken or overturn the clturch establishnent of Ireland or England. On -the contrary, in any'arrangement whiich he could possibly propose, re. lative To the chnrch property in Ireland, bis whole desire would be, not to injure but to benefit the church establishment. He, there- fore, thought it very important to know wbat quantity of land was at present the property of the chureh; and with that view, he would move for " an account of the number of ocres belonging to the church of Ireland, distinguishing glebe-lands from ether parts of that property." His next motion would be for a paper, to show "how many Roman Catholics had been employed in those official situations which by law they were. empowered to fill." By the act of Parliament of 1793, there were only seven exceptions, with respect to offices which Roman Catholics might fill. All offices, buat those speciaUy excepted, they were eli- gible to hold. He wished, therefore, to have it stated, how man) Roman Catholics had been appointed to those offices; because it would very much depeud on the mode in which Government had ap- pointed Roman Catholics to such offices, whether that bady were likely to be satisfied with the situation in which they were now placed, so far as related to the execution of the lawv in ques- tion. He shonld therefore move for " an account of thc number of Roman Catholics appointed to the situation of assistant.-larrister in Ireland,with the dates of the appointments; an accountof thenum- ber of Roman Catholics who have enjoyed patents of precedence in Ireland, for the last five yeats; a liat of the commissioners of appeal in revenue causes, distinguishing such as are Roman Catholics; and a list of all Roman Catholics who are clerks of the peace, and Crown solicitors in Ireland." These were the papers which he felt it neces. mary to move for. The account relative to the Irish revenue, and that respecting presentments by the grand jury, wrere ordered, without observation. On the motion for an account of the number of parishes in Ir.. land, distinguishing those where the clergy were not resident, being put, Mr. GOULBURN said, lie did not rise to offer any oppo- sition to the motion, because no person in that house who had heard the sentiments uttered by him when the affiirs of Ireland were under discussion last session, could doubt that he felt! very deeply the importance of the residence of the clergy in Ireland, and that lie was most anxious for the enforcement of that system. He had pledged himslf, in a former session, to do every thing in his power, and bis Excellency the Lord Lieutenant had given him every assistance to enforce the residence of the clergy; and it would be his (Mr. Goulbitrn's) duty, in a few days, to give notice to the house tbat he would introduce a bill. containing such provisions as he hoped would completely effectual for that purpose. (Hear.) H1Mr. H S UM suggested to the noble lurd the necessity of making some alteration in this motion. If the motion were carnied as it was now worded, a clergynan imight be returned as resident who re- mained only one month on-his living, althgugh he was absent during the other eleven months. He wished the return to be made under four distinctive classes, specifying those incumbents who had been resident for 3, 6,9, or 12 months. Lord ALTHiORP, as we understood, had no objection to the alteration. Alr. CROIER did not know how a return of this kind could be made, without applying to each individual clergyman. If the cler- long enough to satisfy thc general law, he must be returned as a resident. The bishop could only take notice of these clergymen who did not comply with the law. tr. HlUME observed, that the clergymen might make the re- turns. Therewereonly1,280 parishes, and one post might carry out all the blank returns. Air. V. FITZGERALD said, if such an aLmendment were agreed to, founded, as it evidently was, on the argument that some clergy. men who resided but a month on their livings might be returned as regular residenrs, it would be c,sting a most undeserved stigma on the bishops of Ireland. The pains that had been taken by the Go. vernment of Ireland to enforce residence, the division of parishes, and the appointing resident incumbents to do the duty of those cures which were formerly united, suffioiently proved the anxiety of the Government of Ireland and of the Lord Lieutenant on this subject. Air. HUAIE defended bis proposed ameadment, and denied that he was casting any stigma on the bishops of Ireland. As to the de- licacy of calling for such an accouniit, lie thought the house ought to observe little or no delicacy in calling for returns. In 1819 and 1821, orders weTe issued to tbe bishops to make certain returns; and, as liad been stated by his right honourable friend (Sir John Newport), scarcelv more than two bishops obeyed the order. Sir J. NEWPORT, as we understood, denied the accuracy of Mr. Hume's statement. Mr. J. FITZGERALD reiterated his objection to the amend. ment. It would cast a stigma on the bishops of Ireland, since it proceeded en the argument that they would return, as a resident in. cumbent, a clergyman wbo had only resided on his living one month out of 12. Mr. HUME argued the necessity of full explanatory papers being given. MIr. GOULBURN thought that the amendment would virtually defeat the motion. If the time of residence was to be given, the return must go farther into detail, and state the cause where any re- sidence was limited to a particular period. There were cases in which the law provided, that a certain extent of residence should be deemed (generally) residence; or where incumbents had peculiar duties which took them from their cures. Facts like these-illness, and other circumstances, which might occasion partial absence, would require to be set forth. Mr. PEEL opposed the amendment, which was withdrawn after a few words from Mr. flame and Mr. Robertson, and the ori- ginal motion agreed to. On the notion for the papers respecting the church lands of Ire- land, giving the number of acres belonging to the church, distin- guis.iin die glebe. Mr. (QOULBURN said, that he doubted whether such returns could be produced under the present imperfect admeasurements of districts in Ireland. Sir JOHN NEWPORT believed there was not a bishop in Ire- land who could net tell (if the question were put to him) pretty nearlv what land he let to his tenants. (Hear, and laughter.) The informuation, he thought, might be obtained without the smaUest dif- ficulty. Lord ALTHORP could see no weight in the right honourable secrerary's objection. Air. IIIABERLY cautioned the house generally against support- ing the right hon. gent. in his refusals of papers. WVithout papera, and the most ample ones, there could be no fair inquiry into Irish affairs. Mr. GOULBURN would be judged by the house what papers be had refused since he had been in office, and what liis disposition upon the subject generally had always been. He hadl, only two nights since, granted 30,000 papers to the right honourable baronet opposite (Sir J. Newport:. Sir J. NEWPORT, i he could have been surprised at any thing, would have been surprised by the confidence of the right honourable secretary. The papers granted (as he had stated in moving for them) were by no means so numerous; and the subject (parochial taxation) was one of the highest importance. The motion was then agreed to, without a division. The next paper moved for, was a list of Roman Catholics ap- pointed assistant-barristers since the year 1702. Mr. GOULBURN asked how Government should know whether persons were Roman Catholics or otherwise, unless in those cases where the law had imposed an oath. Mr. UIUME said that nothing was more easy than to put the ques. tion to each individual. Lord ALTHORP believed that the return would be short: for lie thought that there had been no Roman Catholics appointed, but he saw no difficultv in making it. A man's religion, in lreland, was always as much a matter of notoriety as his profession. Air. MABERLY supported the production of the paper. AMr. CROKER was not sure that the paper now called for might not be obtainable; but he knew that the state of the law as to re- ligious profession in Ireland would throw serious difficulties in the way of otherobjects contemplatedby the noble lord opposite. The act of 793wastheonlyactnowexistingwhich gave the means of ascertaining whether a man was a Protestant or a Papist. Ie had himself witnessed a curious instance of the general impossibility of ettingatthatfact, which, although it occurred In a trifling matter, e would relate to the house. Formerly, as was well known, a Protestant could not vote at an election in Ireland without taking an oath that he was not a Papist. Subsequently, the law upon that point was altered,and a Papist was allowed to vote upon taking the oath of allegiance. A Catholic coming up to vote towards the close of an election. found, when he got upon the hustings. that he bad lost his certificate of the oath of allegiance. It happened that, as the numbers stood, every vote was of conse- quence. Upon which the man said, " If I cannot vote as a Pa- pLt,i I will vote as a Protestant ;"2 and actually did so in his (Air. Croker's presence, there being no law which bound him to declare his faith. (Hear.) As to the return, however, now called tbr, he believ- ed it was to be got at, because asistant-barristers (Roman Catholics) in Ireland took an oath, ast Roman Catholic barristers did in Eng. land. Mr. PFEL said, that the information might be given, and that there was no objection to giving it; but he objected, and decidedly, to establishing a.preclant.for4putting questions to individuals as to the religion thay professed. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT saw a great diversity in the objec- tions of the honourable. gentlemen on the other side, and no force whiatever in ny of their objections. The right honourabie home secretar,y seemed, o fear the establishment of a species of inquisinon, which was to demand men's oninions and pro- fessions, catlling them forth against their will; but, in fact, the inquiry now contemplated would be gratifviig to every person concerned in it. He trusted that the house, on the feeble opposi- tion of the right honourable gentiean, would nor wave their right to papers which wrere most important to he laid before them. Ir. PEEL would consent to give the papers; blt protested against the principle of inquiry into men's religious opinions. MIotion agreed to. Lord ALTHORP then moved for a return of Roman Catho- lic barristers enjoying patents of precedency in Ireland. hr. GOULU IRN thouht the return should be of btrristers generally. elr. PEEL said that it was notorious that there were no instances. After a few words from MIr. FITZGERALD, the motion was withdrawn. FOREIGN AFFAIRS. LUrd NUGENT postponed his notice on this subject, from Thursday (thie 12th inst.) to Tuesday Dext. On that evening he should moYe for a copy of the instructions given bv the British Go- vernment to Sir *Vm. A'Court; and for copies of the correspondence which had passed between Sir Win. A'Court end the Government of Spain. In case those papers were refused by the house, he should foUow nip tLis moton with a resolution expressive of his opinion on the subject. A message fron: the Lords requested a copy of the report of the select committee appointed to mquire into the state of the poor in Ireland-Acceded to. Mr. PEEL gave notice, that on Tuesday next he would move to bring in a bill consolidating the laws with respect to the empanel- ment of juries; and another upon the subject of the regulation of gaolg.- ivr. WESTERN spoke in so low a tone of voice as to be inaudi- ble in the gallery. As well as we understood the hon. member, he complainea of some want of courtesy on the part of the right hon. secretary in havingtakena suyjectout of his hands,upon which he bad introduced a bilt in the early part of lsrt session. In the bill now proposed by the right hon. secretary, there, was no novelty whatever. Mr. PEk:L apprehended thxt his bill (in which he claimed no- thing on the score of 30velty) differed from that of the hop. gentle- nan, which he thought he brnd.sliows the bons. ,entleman contained pinnts which coul*not' b,e proceede upon. the consolidation of scie twenty eFthirsy 'tatute., upon one subject, had appeared io him to bt rmatter worthy tlhe agentioaofGloveranent; bhe hadpre. valledupona gentleman ofgreatability tofrane a bfoithe purpo The b which it was his intention to bring in related to betvee 30 anid 40 stattttes which were spread over the book--a subject ver different, of course, from ihat to which the attention of the hon. gent. hadtbeen attracted. Not- that he would have objected to in. duiding the bill of the hon. gentleman in that which had been prepared; but he really intended it as a courtesy to the han. gent. not to do so, because he thought that the hon. gent. would--aturally rhaviogthe credit of hirs own measure secured to -himself hthat fiew, he had actuaUv postponed his own measure to make way tbr tlat of the F.onourable gentleman's, which would cone on to-morrow. If the house concurred in the propositions of the honourable gentleman, he could have no objec- tion to the adoption of them into the general bill. But he must hold to his intention of bringing a plan before the house in order to conisolidate the scattered and numerous statutes, to reduce them within more intelligible limits, and to repeal for ever aL the former statutes upon the subject. Air. NUME asked if the bll would Include vithin its reforma. tion the whole of the laws respecting special juries. 1Mr. PEEL.-Certainly, his intention was, that the whole of the law should be embodied in the new bill, subject,however.to such dis- tinctions as r.aight be adopted by the house out of the propositions of the hon. member for Essex. USURY LAWS. Sergeant ONSLOW obtained leave to bring in a bill for repeal- ing thelaws which regulate and restrain the interest of moncy. He declined making any general observations on the subject at present, having expressed his sentiments at suffient length on former occa- sions; he proposed to make use of the indulgence of the house in re- plying to any ob jections wvhich might ariseiin the progress of thebill. TAhe CHANCELLOR ef thxe EICIIEQU R brought up ac- counts of Exchequer bills issued and authorized to be issued for the year 1824; also accounts of Exchequcr bills paid between the 5th of January, 1828, and 5th January, 1824; also estimates of the interest due for Exchequer bills issued in 1823, now outstanding and unprovided for, which were laid upon the table. Mlfr. ffRATTAN made some observations (not clearly audible in the gaUery) upon the constables of Ireland. He was understood to complain rmost particularly of the constables in his own county, and to give notice of a motion for the return of papers upon this subject for to-morrow. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice, that he would to-morrow, in the committee of supply, move for the ap. plication of the Exclequer bills not issued and authorized to be is- sued, aad also of the arrears of aidls granted for the past year and not yet gathered in, to the services of the present year. Adjourr.ed at 7 o'clock. HOUSE -F.rCOMMAIONS,- UESDAY, rEJ. *u-