House Of Commons, Thursda...
The Times, 1824-06-11T00:00:00

On the motion of Sir . SAW, this bill was read a third time and passed. MR. 811ITH, THE MIISSIONARY. Mlr. KNIGHT presented a petition from 100 inhabitanta of the town of Rye, praying the house to inquire into al the circum- stances attending the trial of the late Reverend Mr. Smith at Deme- rara. Similar petitions were presented from the inhabitants of Hadley and Holywell. NORFOLK ASSIZES. M,r. J. WODEHOUSE presented a pedtion from the justices of the peace of the couinty of Nortolk, praying that in future the spring aesizes might be held at Norwich, and oit at Thetford. Mhlr. R. COLBORNE objected to the prayer of the petition. Mlr. W. SMt ITH and (we think) Sir E. HARTEY supported it. It was read and ordered to be printed, after which Mr. -WODEROUSE gave notice, thathe would to-mosrow mole that the petition be referred to a select committee. IMIPRESSAIENT OF SEAMEN. Atr. T. *VILSON presented a petition from the merchants, ship.owners, and masters of vessels of the port of London, praying that the practice of impressing seamen mighit be abolished. As this subject was to be introduced to the house in the coarse of the even- ing by the honourable member for Aberdeen (Mlr. Hume), he (Mr. Wilson) would not make any other remark now, than to say that he fully concurred in the Frayer of the petition, and that he . would willingly give his support to any measure by which the evils of imnpressment rrughtbe removed. On the motion of Mr. RoXrL Bt~SO2, there was ordered to be laid before the house an account of the annual revenue and public ex- perditure of Mlalacea, while in possession of Great Britain during the late war. CATHOLIC QUESTION. Mr. GRATTAN presented a petition from the town and county of the town of Galway, praying for Catholic emancipation. The honourablemember expressedahopethatpetitions on this subject wouild be presented from every part of the country, and added (an we understood him) that, whatever might be the fate of these petitions, he would in the coutse of the next session endeavour to introduce a measure by which some system of poor laws should be extended to Ireland. BELFAST ACADEM1ICAL INSTITUTION. Lord A. HILL presented a petition from the President, Vice- President, and Professors of the Belfast Academical Institudon, praying the house to use its good offices with his Afajesty, and im- plore him to direct an inquiry into the state of their funds and re. sources. MUr. HU1IE said a few wotds in suppOrt of the praver of the pe- tition, and hoped that the attention of the Irish Government would be turned towards it. Mr. GOULBURN said, that the Government were by no means indifferent to the objects of the institution; but, considering the otber and more important institutions in Ireland which called for their support, they were not prepared to accede to that which it was the ultimate object of the petition to obtain_namely, pecuniary as- sistance Alr. ABERCROMBY expressed his surprise that ministers should withhold their support from an institution whose objects wsere of such a laudable nsture as the present. The house were not aware, perhaps, that the object of this institution was to give a pro- per education to those who were to become the future pastors and teachers of a great portion of the Protestant of Ireland. It wasnot a private establishment, but a public institutiou, and as such had al- ready received the support of Government. Why t,hat support had been since withdrawn, he could not telD, except that it arose from a refusal on the part of those at the head of the establishment to allow Government a share of its patronage. But i whatever was the cause of the withdrawal of the Government sup. port, the friends of the institution now courted the most strict and minute inquiry into its conditct and management up to the present time, satisfied that such inqairy would clearly show that they were fully entitled to the support which they solicited. Ilr. FORD said that the institution was conducted in the most proper manner. lTlhe petition was ordered to lie on the table. On the motion that it be printed, -Mr. S. RICE moved as an amendment, that a humble address be presented to His lMajesty, prayiyg that he would be pleased to in- struct the commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of edu- cation in Ireland to take into their earliest consideration the Bel- fast Academical Institution. Sir J. NENWPORT supported the amendment. Mr. GOULBURN supposed that what had previously faUen fromrhim must have been misunderstood. He did not mean to deny that the Belfast institution was a fit subject for inquiry; he had only doubted the expediency of diverting the attention of the com- mission from the consideratton of the general state of the education o f the pr in Ireland, to that of a particular institution. He should feel it his duty to oppose the amendment, which was beside the usual course of proceedings on the presenltation of a petition. Mlr. C. HUTCIUINSON WaS of opinion, that the institution to which the petition referred eught to come under the consideration of the commission. Ir. PEEL said that he had bcen given to understand, that an hon. and learned member (Ar. Abercrumby) had stated that the Government had refused its assistance to the Belfast Institution, because they could ebtain no patronage in that establishment He could assure thc house that such was not the case. He had, ina cor- respondence which took place between himself and the governors of the institution, stated thie reasons why the support of the Govern- ment would in future be writhheld from the establishment. One of those reasons was, that it was coDsidered to be better that the young men in the north of Ireland should receive their education, as they had foralong time done, inthe Scotch Universities, instead of in an in- stitutien situated in a large manufactcurig town like Belfast He also disapproved ofmanyproceedings on the part of the persons who took the leadin the management of the Belfastlnstitution. He thought that it the Government took upon itself the responsibility of applying the public money to the support of the institution, it ought to possess some check on its management. It wvas therefore proposed that some individuals of the highest rank in Ireland should be appointed vi- siters of the college by Government. But he solemnly declared that it never was the wish of Governnient to obtain any share in the ap. pointment of professors, or any kind of patronage whatever. tie trmsted that the hon. member for Limerick would consent to with- draw his amendment, on the understanding that an inquiry should take place intothe stateof the college, after the commission had per- formed their more pressing labours. Air. S. RICE, under the circumstances, withdrew his amendment. Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to know when the commissioners would proceed to business in Ireland? Mir. PEEL said, that their names would appear in Saturday's Gazette t their instructions were already drawn out, and he wished to take this opportunity of stating, that although he had no doubt himself of the povrer of the commissioners under the Crown to ex- amine witnesses on oath, yet if any impediment were on that ac. count cast upon the inquiry, he should on the first day of next ses. sioan move for leave to bring in a bill to remedy the difficulty. Mlr. SPRING RICE presented a petition from Strabane, in Ire- land, respecting some alterations contemplated in the butter trade. Alr. COKE presented a petition from Robert Gourlay and' others, in the county of UWilts, praying for a repeal of certain taxes. Mr. PORTMAN presented several petitions from parts of Dor- setshire, prayin for the abolition of slavery. MDr. RIDLEY COLBORNE presented a petition from Thetford againstany alteration in the plaee forholding the NorfolkLentassize. AIISSIONABY SAlr Mr. GRENFELL said that he held in his hand a petition from a number of inhabitasts o? Falmouth, Penryn, and the neighbour- hood, complaining of the severe and unwarrantable treatment of the late Mr. Smitb, at Demerara. The honourable mnember observed, that it was too much the fashion now.a-days to attribute the epi- thets of methodist, and fanatic, and saint, to any body who thought proper to complain of. the hardships of the negroes in the West in- dies. He could assure the house, that lie was neither a methodist nor a fanatic, and most certainly not a saint (a laugh); but that as a member of a Christian community, inculcating peace and good- will to all men, and teaching thie precept of doing to others as he would wish to be done by, ke would fearlessly declare in the House of Commons, thathedidnot believe the declarations which had been made in the colonies respectidng the good treatment of the negroes. On the contrary, he thought that these poor creatures were the most wretched of the human species, and suffered under an inffiction which was every way aggravated by their task-masters. He also believed that there was in Demerara a rooted objection to permit the slaves to be taught the doctrines of the Christian religion; nor did he vronder at t,when that religion could only inculcate more strongly the heinousness of their treatment. Entertaining these opinions, be should to-morzbw give his cordial support to the motion of his hon. and learned friend (MIr. Brougham.) Mr. RO ERTSON could assurc the hon.memberthatthere were many in the West Indies who highly recommended the diffusion of instruction by missionaries, and who thought that the Christian reli- gion could only be adequately taught by,that meritorious class of persons. Sir 1. COFFIN said that he would recommend hon. members who talked in this manner, to go to the West Indies and look at the negroes vwith their own eyes, ashehad with his. They would there find the black men contented and happy, as long as they were left alone, and withouthaving their heads stuffMed with nonsense, which tnade the slaves rise in judgrment about things they did not under. stand. He hadseen thousands of negroes as fat, and thick, and joD~r as the hon. mnember himself (Mr. Grenfell.) (Loud laughter.) Mr.WARRE protested agatinst the wanton cruelty which had been in'dicted by the fecent commutatioe, as it was called of the sentences of some of the black prisoners. Togive a man hislife,and then to torture him to death,wasasingulsrsort of comemutation, yet such wcas thefact.Whatcleecould be called sparingamanfronmbeing hanged, to infLict upon him the military exeuton of 1,000 lashes? (H'..) He hoped that vrh'dethe Govenmant at home were so lau- dably engaged in discouraging and abolishing that species of tor- ture, they would express such an opinion upon its inflction in the colonies, as srould prevent a repetiton of these acts. MIr. MANNINGp declared, hat whn hlie was in the West Indies, he had seen no instance of the i2fliction of exorbitaiiteruelty, and he could add, that pains were taken in the colonies to promote religious education.-The petition was ordered to be printed. - ' - ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND. Lord MILTON said, that he had a petition to presenl for his -noble friend(LordwAlthor), who was unavoidahlv absent, from "the undersigned Catholcs of Ireland." There were parts of this petition wfhich nresented acomplete illu6tration of the efFect p roduced in Ireland by a longcntinued system of amisgovernment. lt aa the necessary consequenceof unjust stigma to engender dis- ontenlt, and kindle animosities. He could not concur in the whole of the prayer of the petioners, a for th4 ve,ry rcon-becuvxe he mould7sot conmur in the princi1pe of the penal code. Ie cotld have RO objection to that part of the prayer ef the petition which' re. quired that ctrtain ptrrons who were styled Orangemen should be tendered amenable for theif acts to the laws of their country: but he could not go the length of calling for their being disarmed, for he would not punish the Orangemen of the present dyfor the crimes perpetrated'by 'th-er ancestorS a ceatury ago. He thouht however, with the petitioners, that it was full time to have an eqsa adfinistration of tbe law, and a fair eliltibility to the privilege of the constitution, secured to the people of Ireland. The petition waslaid on the table. Sir W. W. WYNN presented a petition from Wrexham, com. plaining of the treatment of the late llMr. Smith. WVAREHOUSING BILL. Sir N. COLTHURST presented a petition from the merchants of Cork, against the warehousing (Ireland) bill, to which he, caUed the attention of his Mlajesty's Government. Mr. GRATTAN said, that the-bill had given a general cause of complaint thlroughout Ireland. AIr. HERRIES promised that when they caTne to the discnssion of the biU this evening, in the regular order, he would remove all the objections which had been made to this measure. AIr. HUTCHINSON assured the hon. gentleman that much of explanation was necessary, for the bill was severely complained of by the merchants of Cork, Dublin, and other parts of Ireland, who must certainly he supposed to know their own interests. The petition was then laid on the table, and ordered tobe printed. IMIPRESSMIENT OF SEAMEN. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the ship.owners and xea. men of King's Lynn, against the impressment of sailer. ReIcalled on gentlemen to pay particular attention to the arguments contained in tis petition. No person, he thought, coult read it, without com- ing to the unbiassed convicdon, that the system of which the pe- titioners complained eught to be abolished. Its existence was, in fact, a slur on the Britis constitution. Air. C. HUTCHINSON said, one of the greatest hardships in. flicted on seafaring men, under the system; was, that after they had served for yeais on foreign stations, and distingaished them- selves for Food conduct and gallantry, they were, when return- ing to a Bntish port to join their families, or to recruit their health, liable te be impressed, and compelled to serve for perhaps as long a period as that which they had already devoted to their coantry. the petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. ROM3tAN CATEHOLIC CLKAIMIS. Mlr. HUTCHINSON said, he rose in consequence of the notise he htad given, to present the petition wbich he heid in his hand. He had not detained it in his possession one unnecessary moment. He had received the petition on last Thursday evening; but, owing to the halydays, and the general state of 'he house, no fit op. portunity had occurred for prezenting it until this 'nvening. The petition was from ceriain Roman Catholics of the county and city of Cork, and was signed by nearly 900 per- sons. Re besoughtthe house not to suppose, onaccount of the smal' number of signatures, that the question of emancipation was not felt bv the g reat body of Roman Catholics as one of the deepest and most important that could be agitated. So far from that being the case, he beheved there never was at moment when, in alU parts of Ireland, and through the whole Catholic wopulation, the opinions of that body were more unanimous on this great subject. They felk a decded conviction of the necessity of frequently ad. dressing Parliament to interpose iha authority tbr the pur- pose of relieving them from the restraints ani disabilities hich they had so long and so patiently endured. If numbers could have added any v eight to the prayer of this pedtion-if num. hers could have enforced or strengthene the arguments it contained _he was convinced that it wouldhave been signed by thousands and thousands. The Roman Catholic body were feelingly sensible of the degrading disqualifications under which they laboured; and therefore they approached the House of Commonswith the utmost respect, and caUed on them for the repeal of those obnoxious laws as unjust as. they w ere impo.itic, which so cruely abridged their ciril rights. 'They rested their cause on the broad principle otf justice. They founded their application on the great political axiom, that every man had a claim to an equal and imp?artial enjoyment of civil privileges; and they ceied for the restitution of that ahich they denominated their indefeisible right. That unfortunate country, to which the attention of the house had of late been so forcibly ana so painfully directed, would, he felt assured, never be restored to a state of peace and pros- lerity, until aU classes of his Majesty's subjecte were placed, by Vatliament, on the most perect political equality. He had now stated, if not the words, at least the substance of this petition, which called the attextion of the house, in a most forcible manner, to the immediate consideration of this important question, In a few days Parliament, he knew,would be prorogued; and he slould be glad to be informed what excuse he could offer to those petitioners, and through them to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, for the non-consi- deration of their claims in the present session? In what way was he to explain to them how it had happened, that Parliament had sat for several months, during which time some questions of grrat im- portance, and many, as compared with this, of minor interest, were discussed, and yet Ainisters had not considered it their duty to direct the attention of the legislature to this momentous-this, as he had often styled it, imperial question. He called on the right honourable Secretary of State (I Ir. Canning) to account for this. Could he (lr. Hutchinson) turn round on the Roman Catholics, and tell them, that it was attributable to their own neglect ? Could he make such a charge with fairness and justice ? He did not think he conld. He saw the Roman Catholics professing attach. nient to the person, the family, and the Government of the King. He knew that that attachment was sincere-that it was enthusiastic. It was founded on a grateful recoUection, o01 a thorough conviction ofthe fact, that it only required the advice of ministers to the Crown, to ensure the perf oranceof every thing that was right, just, and gracious, towards his Majesty's Roman Catholic eubjects. For there was, in the quarter to which he had referred, a love for Ireland and for Irishmen which would lead to a willing concession of every just claim ; and, if proper adviceweregiven, theywouldnolonger behold rillions of hLs Mlajesty's subjects discontented and dissatis- fied. When he sawthe Roman Catholics takinganoathofallegiance, (such as he believed was never before tendered to any people),deny- ing every abominable opinion imputed to them-when he saw them appealing to the journals of the Irislh Parliament, to show what had been conceded and what bad been promised to them-when he considered the way in which they had entitled themselves to the protection of the legislature-swhen he reflected on the exemplary manner in which they falfilled their public and private duties-when he turned to the history of his country, and read of the battles in which they had bled, and of the victories which they had achiewed...when lhe found thatil-treated body claim- ieg, and justly claimning, a share in crcating that glory and proipe- rity which so pre.eminently distinguished the British empire at the pvresent moment..-.hen he saw and recollected those circumitences, he never could turn round on them and say, that the apathy of the House of Commons, with respect to their cause, was attributable to their own conduct. HXe could not but feel, as the Roman Catholics of Ireland felt, that, than the present, a more opportune moment for ministers to bring forwarda morion on the subject of the Catholic claims-a motion to pacify the people of Ireland-could not have been selected. But, though ministers had not dcne so, the Catholics were not, therefore, to despair. They had still a right to look for- ward to thatfrortunate moment when their claims could not beresisted. He (MIr. Hutchlnson) belonged to a family, whic in all times, and under all circumstances, however varying, had advocAted the Catho. lic claims: but he had never, either here orelsewhere, advocated those claims on the principle of exclusively assisting or benefitting the Catholics. He had alwavs repelled the idea that the Roman Ca- tholics were obEged to his fiamily for their exertions, at any time, in tbe cause of emancipation. He hadsupported theirclaims on the, great principle of justice. He had done all lie could to assist them,- first, because they were an injured body of the community-and next, because he felt chat to concede their claims would be to benefit the community at- large. D)id the right honoura. ble secretary for Ireland imagine, from what had transpired before the committee which was now sitting, that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were so little serious-that they possess- ed so little talent,-that they were so little united-that they had so little energy, as to suffer this question to begot rid of by a side-wind ? The right hon. gent. must himself know and feel that an end must be put to this question. Things could not So on a they were at present. Those Protestant gentlemen who hada great stake in Ireland would, he believed, force the question sooner than leave the country in the situation in which it was now placed. AIinisters must look at this subject like states- men. If they considered it properly, they would see that unless sQme scheme were devised to pacify the Catholic population, there was no security for Ireland. In what state was the country at present ? Ireland, which in time of peace ought to be the bright- est gem in the imperial crown, was now governed at the expense of several millions a-year, and the far greater part of the disposable force of Englandi was employed there. The right hon. secretary seemed to be amused at these statements. But be (Mr. Hutelin. son) was speaking the language of truth. If the present were a periodrof war, the greatest danger might be apprehended from the disturbed state of that country, if an active force were ready to in- vade it from the enemy's shore. He would be a dishonest man, if he did not state this broadly to ministers. Whtn, or.a former night, a committee was appointed to inquire whether the in- surrectiou act should be renewed, he-did not, as had been repre- sented, express any opinion on the propriety orimpropriety of conti- nuing that measure: but he expressed his astonishmernt. that mi. nisters should agzee te the appointment of a committee to inquire into the expediency of renewing an act of restraint and penalty, without at the same time feeling it to be their duty to caU lbr a committee, whose object should be to adopt measures for uniting and quieting the penple of Ireland. The Catholics, he hoped, did not despair. Their ultimate success he looked upon as certain, and he trusted that it would soon arrive. He had not, in the course of these observations, intended to give any person offtence; bait he must be a perfect master of languagc who, in speakingof the wrongs of the Romarn Catholics, could abstain from asingstrong expressions. Divr. IV. BECHER said he had been requested to support this petidon, andtherefore hetool thatopportunity to state his sentiments as to the propriety of its prayer, and to bear testimony to the respec- tabihty of the persons composing the meeting where it was agreed to. Tlus was not the period to eaterinto the genernalquetons and all he lied to ask was, tJ'atthWhouse wouldconjideritcoollyanddispas- sionately when ittwasbrought tbrward.Hewishedtocatutiongentlemen against suffering their minds to be biassed by any misconduct or er- ror on the part of a small portion of the Catholic body, who might have complained in language not sufficielntly nieasured of their grievances. Thosecomplaints proceeded from persons who, as they t'elt most accutely the evils which they sufilred under the present system, naturallv expressed those feelings stronsly, and sought re- hefin amanner vhich might appearintemperateand violent to those who were mere spect3tors. Sucnerrors,whicharosefrom strongirrita- lion, only formed, in hisopinion,anaslditionalseasor for granting that which tie Catholics claimed. He never could hear a reproach cast oR any part of the Irish population for complaining in forcible terms of their sufferings, without figuring to himself what. would be the conduct of the people of England if the great body of them weTe la. bouring under similar disqualifications. (Hear.) If the nmajor part of the population of England were thus situated, would not the em. pire be shaken to its centre by their efforts to obtain relief ? (Hear.) Sure he was, that if the people, under such circumstances, betrayed any thing like apathy, tbeir superiors would en- deavour to arouse their energies. (Hear, bear.) Would not the gentlemen who now surrounded him, if such a state of thin"gs prevailed, incur the charge of being agitators, sooner than suter their countrymen to remain-sn a state soinjuriousnd so ldegrading? The etiton wthe bro~ht p, rad,ancl ordered tobe prin ted. SMNiALL DEWL S Rl ECOlRY BILL. Lord A. HAMIILTON rose forleave to bringina billfor the exr- tension of the small debts act in Scotland. In doing so, he observed, he ditl not act froma individual feelin in calling fbr so exiensive a chang e in the law of Scotland as wolsd be effectedby this measure In thct report of the cormmissioners who were appointed to inquire into tie state of the courts of justice in Scotland, which report had been I ying on their table for iliree yearF it was stated, that the com. rnL-sr,pcr, and the justices of the peace wreunq jov m z wiO for the extesaion of tlie at smurouetionsb had ilao beent * sentedin favour of thi ineasure. 'Thieoble'lcetthenar.ccedediko state the fact contalnedin thosepetitions , from'which it appearici that kreditors in sotland oftengave up debts of moderate amount altogether, sooner than go to the expense of suing in the superior courts; whilst, in thany eases, versona to whom 71. or 81 -were due, gave up 21. or 31 of their. debt, and reduced it Bo as to come within the provisi'os of the -small debts act.- The noble lrid faither quoted several pasages from the report of the comlniagonera of inquiry, to show that the opinions laid down in that document were favourable to his measure. As the prezent session was ao far adyanced he wished only to bring in his bidl,'im haveit printed; it might tZsn be circulated for the convenience of members, and next year come on for discusion. The noble lord sat down by moying for leave to bring in a bill to amend the'9h ard 40th acts of the late Xing, cap. 46. The LORXD ADVOCATE said, that the business of tbe coin. mission of intuiry had not exactly extended to the subject before the house. He doubted much, whether the feeling in Scotland was se fvourable to the noble lord's oeasure as was supposad. The bill lookedonlytotheinteretofthecreditor; thatofthedebtordeserted also to be constiderti. Herewasanewfaciljty tobegiveutotherecovery of small debts, carrylng ofcourse withita fresh cncourasementto the givingof smalcredits. AMorethanthree-fourthsof thepersonsnow imprisoned in Scotland were imprisoned for small debts: and the bill gave a power of summary confinement to the creditor, beyond that which ne possessed already. He (the Lord Advocate) had no objection to the bill's beingbrought in and printed: but, upon exsi. inination in comnlttee, it would be found that heavy objections ex.. isted against it. It was worth while to observe the mode of doing business in thosecourts, of which it was noirsought to extend the jutrisdiction. The Sheriffs' Court of Edinburgh sat 48 days in the year; and inthose 48 da y, tried upwards of 8,000 causes; this was trying at the rate of 1'O causes a day, or rather more than two mitnutes to each cause, calculating the whole time of sitting. Mlr. MAXWELL was fivourable to-the principle of thebill, but wished tkatsNmething-couldbedoneto get rid of the systeni- of im. prisoning for small debts. Mlr. flUME *ihed to extend the jurisdiction 'of the courts in uestion to IBL, and to get rid of all imprisonment for debt, both in ,cotland asd England. Lora A. HAMILTON said, that the number of causes tried in the Sheriff's Court, at Edinburgh," showed how partial the people were to the jurisdiction which he was desircus of extending. Leavewas then given to bring in the bill. PRIVATE BILLS. Mlr. BRIGHT withdrew his motion on the subject of. private bills, as a committee was appointed to inquire into it; but would renew his application next session, if the committee didiiot propose some decided measure. 0MPRESSWENT OF SEAMEN. Mr. flUMlE, in bringing forwvard his motion on this subject, be. en by expressing the deep sense he entertained of its importance. Cireureistan ces had compelled him to postpone it much later than he could havc wished iD the session; but, late as it- wa, he flt it his duty to move at least t'or a committee and for papers in the way of eucidation. No man was more anxious than he 'was to see the navy of England maintained in its highest state of efficacy-pnd vigour; but surely that could never be best done by, a system which rendered the service one of general terror and abhor. rence. He wished to see the naval service, which awas the -,ide of England. placed upon a footing of equalfreedom with the q5er ses. vices of theccuntry; and if, upon going into a committee (wylh7A,how.- ever, he theughtimpossible), itshould be found necessary tocontiouc the operation of the existing ystem, still the consciousness of having performed aserius duty would more than repay the house for the trouble of the inquiry. The hon. gent. then proceeded to examine th law of the subject at soine length. It had been said by some, thal the prmctice of impreument was legal; 'by others, that it was illegal lIe, himself, was quite sure it was unconstitutional, and that,'fo him, was enough; but it was right that he should laybefore th house the foundation upon which the legality of thd'practice tif lefa itwas) eted. Thefullest opinion whichhehad been able tomeet Wit upon that point was that of Judge Forster, given when that learne person had been a Sergeant and Rcorder of BristoL A rcsS.gang this was in the year 1743-had boarded ashipin Bristol-Sr'cour; r sistance had been uade by a sailor, and one of the pressmen had be killed; theoffender,Alex.Broadfoot had been tried forthe murder and the opinion delivered (as to the law) by Mr. Justice Forster o that occasion had been this-Affer citiDg several commissions an warrants which had from time to time been issued to admirals an otherofficersinthenavy,authorizingthemto impress seamen, tb learned Judge proceeded and said, "I nowcometothe statutes whi Speak of this matter; and I admit tnat I know of no statute now i force which directly and in express terms empowereth the Crovn piress mariners into the service; and admitting that the prerogati IS grounded on immemorial usage, I know of no necessity for such statute for let it be remembered, that a prerogative ground upon generalimmemorialusage notinconsistentwithanystntute,n repugnant to utility, is as much part of the lawof England as atatuI law."J Thus far the learned Judgeas to the legalityef the practice; b his argumentfailedin thiarespect.thathe hadnot shown andcouldn show thatpractice to be consistent witblthe statute law,or to beso p eminently useful as to supersede the necessity of a statute on t subject, It was the opinion of Mr. Baron Maseres, in his work a the same subject, that there was no statute in favour of it, and the practice was repugnant to the statute law. Sir E. Coke, was unable to produce any statute on the subject. The questi then was, was this practiceso useful as to ride over all the privileg of the subject ? It was curious to observe that thereswas no class men who were more praised-none whose actions were more hel upto general admiration,than theseamen of England, and yet the was no class of subjects whose rights were so much encroached up on the plea of necessity as theirs. He foundmany records on ti books of thehouse, eftle alleged existence of this necessity.In the5 ofAnne it wssstated,tbatthepractice was absolutelynecessary for defence of therealm. This necessity hada all tunes been the pl of tyrants; but it was necessary for those who made such plea prove that it existed. He should show that it did not In the ye 1739, an attempt was made to bring in a bill to mitigate the evil but he would, before he came to this, just mention the fact, that ti ships which composed Admiral Blake's fleet was composed of lunreers. If such qdvantage were deri,'] from that ecmstan would it not be worth while to try a shmilar experiment now ? In tI year 1739, as he had said, an attempt was made to introducea m sure to mitigate the evil. That attempt completely failed, but was then said by those who opposed it, that it was a subject whit should be considered, not in war time, but when the nation was. profound peace. That season had now arrived; we were now peace, ud were likely to continue so for some time, snd we coa not take up thisimportant question atamore proper period. Theho member then proceeded to point oat some of the evils of the ayts of impressment, and amongst others stated, that though very ma improvements had been nadein the condition of the seamen of royal navy towards the close of the war, yet that even th the desertions from our ships were very numerous. a very excellent pamphlet written on this subject by Ca tain Matryatt, the danger and inefficacy of the system of presament were clearly pointed out. He stated, that he was appoi ed to the Newcastle i 1814; that while he was on bourd, some rhemen, in view of the sentinels, and in presence of their officers, down the ship's side, took possession of one ofher boats, and thou they wvere fired at with bali-cattridge, they succeededl in gaining shore and effecting their escape. From every opportunity vhich had of judging, be observed that this disposition to desert did arise frorn a dishlke of the treatenent by their officers, hut ft their naturalabhorrence of comnpulsory service. Captain AMarry also stated, that wvhen the ZVewestek was in chase of theA rican ship the Coustlhsdetn, she had one- hundred men 1 than her regular complement. HowY should these things hap pen, there was nOt something bad in our naval system? P Wfe h plenty of admirals and captainaf and lieutensrts and midahipm and other officers, and plenty more ready and anuious to fill th situations. There was no deficiencyof men in tlt: army; menw easily h-ad when they were wan'ted. In short, men were fo wrilling to engage in- any occupation in life; but t4 theRHo navy there was a; general repugnance on the part of seamen;a this wrould apipear the more remarkable, wrhen itwvas recoDlected the seamen in the British navy enjoyed many advantages wh wsere not possessed by those in the merchant service. In of illness, they had - ospitala eri shore, wYhere every artete was .paid to them as long as they were sick, and their was.omjahed. T'hey'were provided for when disabled; and- notrwitJ*tandiig those advantsfies,wthich the merchant-.seamen not enjey, it was w,ell knowsn that-seamnen yiere ready to mutil themselves, nay, even to risk thie acrifice of their lives, rather enter the Royalnavr. Hlow so strong ?ar so general a repugn to the service should exist, was a question which deserved soluti He would contend that it arose from the original force by w hich t were brought into the service; a nd by the constant salae'of coerc and restraint ia which they were kept while they continued-t continuance, too, being for an indefinite period.~ These, and th alone, were the cattes; and the house would not do jus to themselves, or their country, if they. refused the inq wlhich he should propose. lf, in that inquiry., the abso and unavoidable necessity of the practice could be pro~ved, why a great good wvould he donfe; but if it could be sbov n that the might be altogether avoided- surely no man would, contend tha ought to be continued. Ge bad mnentioned that-eamlen of thea navy possessed mnany advantages no: enjoyed by mnerchant sea Hle w ould nowr mention some of tletlisdvantages under wvhich laboured, and which, in addition to the forced sertice in the first stance, created such'a repugnancetX our ih,iPs of war. In the plaCethe would mentiOn tile irregular mode olpayment toour sail lie would admit that a conxsiderable improvemnent bad been fected in - this respect byr- Lord:-Dlelville. by wshat wasc " the allotmnent act ;" but that the syster -waS fat;f being zperfect would s ppear -from thist-tbsat sir mtany instw five six, and seven- years and in- ot'hers ten ; tyhilve, and X teent years, were allowed to paSs over before;aP seamoani was his wages in full. In the interim ho received-, only an- oceasi small pittance, whicht did not serve his wants for the. time be Wasitwo'tbleths men whO ha-deartted their mone7-'lthromr labour should be satisfled-with such a system?. - Bimight fmeatior. thoe small amouTot o the'seshan's pay on board a Ei ship' -- T'the time of Wflliai III., the pay of the seanusn was per month, was va t presgIt not more than 38ts. 'HIow could he satisfied with such pay, then theg found- that snen in the ohantacyi'ce obtained3l&, 'and7L.,nnd sometimes RS high a per month. Let the houss look to th8condition of the American 'l'here there'was no impressment-America, the only nation could attemptto rival us on sea, had no imprestment of sailors if.they couldnian their navy efficiently without that prctice aiglrenot sc? If weshould hereafter meet America inhostl the seas, e cld not meet them on equal terms,because we sh havconly tha forced labours of slaves to ospoae to the apontan exertions of.freemeii for he would ask-in what other- lightc the impresed leatan, ihoe person was forcbly dragged onb in the Zest hnstance, -and afteirards detuined agalnat his w il viewed> than. s a slavef ? If he were ibreibly torn the bosot,iof hi fami}y, 'or prevented from rejoining- them an absence of yeas-, - and obliged to enre into a service ' he mightbt'detair.ed sinent his wll for the -rest of his life,in respect was -hir 'eadirYoninTdifercent from that~ of the gslley4l WYas there not in boith instancee the same violaton of personal ty-? Then with tesprtote Am erica *eacn,ln theyr wee better iaid and thepaywas iven without those ong delsye so frequently htervened'betwreen the eamning and receipt of his' by the Brituah seaman . The next objection- to oulr preeens system was the indefinite length ci' 5efsice. The house hadI much ofthecrultiesinflicted upon blacklmen, in beingtorn their families, and forced to labour for their lives; but why tr ply the asme reasoning tt white men and British aub,iects, who forcedS from their country sad friends' by thet volOtrice press-an? The tdllantalmiri (Sir (George Cockburn) seem dissnt fresad is; buthe wouldrnot take hiso pinion ott the au He would rather take thec opinion of thw5t ;het had felt xthe wrhich he noF ointed ouSL* He bad seen eaen, whoaffier d iicf, itMn.of.war'bqatCSi aIap1de and tore tbema isad' itlsat tiqmaonXe r.a$they were o tig&oesscea Llrc' iltidS was- perhaps to end only with thgei lives. 'Was this, itswoud slt,a aaero.srhchoghttobe allowed to continue, it it w'er~ozsileto ~ov~e a rmedy va s not the necesaity ofa- t~1ptll~ omeremdy a raso wh te house should proceed to the inqury? Hear) Antherobjetio ohe present syistem was theresrait pace upn te mn - oin n shome This, howe'ver, vt ne It wtsl naturosalmothti necessrl o Ilote system of im.. PreramnenL. Itwsntrlta ftec wr pened, the bird riould fly away. It was tho system whichwstecas fti dis. Positio(n to desert. Great coercion, and that alon,poce this eavil, w?hich was very little known in the Amerid erie The great errr lay in the miethod of treating tbe sailorsb those Placed in commnind oyer -them. Sailors were like ohrmen, Snil their conduct wouldl be .affected Iky the manne inwhich they were treated. He had seen saoios . on board ships, and he found them po-sses,;ed of as good qualities' as other men. Therdiconentin ing'st ships arose froin their treatment. Let aniYmanimrazinebhimseIf for amoment inaesimilar situation1and he spight then judgerof what Wss feelings would be under similar re- ritaint. Ainothor avil of the ~present system arose from the mode of Punishment. Thishewas awarewasa verv delicate subject, but he culd not avoid saving a few words upon it. Be woula assert that the whole mrnnitime code stoocl in need of improvement. The Practice of givingpunislhment at the discretion of courts-martial was a bad one; hut there was one which was still worse--that of punishing at the discretion or whim of the officers, witbout arty court-martial 'whate'ver. He would appealto the Governiment on this subject~ end -Sl,w'neth-r after the amelioration of thecondlition of the black sae with respect to, punishment, they would 'not make some exertion to remedy the evils of the white slaves ? (Hear hear, from the minis. teri, benche3.) Hie would reeat the phrase, and he would prove its correctness. Alinisters had puiblished e sort of decree with respect tothe future punishme-ntof Westtibdia slaves which was common- ly' Called " Lo-rd Bathurst's letter." Tn that letter it was directed that no0 slave should be punished until the day after the offence was c0omrritted ; and that if. more than tbree lashes were inflicted, three Percon ghould be present to witness the punishment; and also that nil such puinishment should be registeredi m ahook kept for that pur- PIore. Why not allowr the s-ame inaulgence to the British seamanii? Accordin,g to the present practice of' the navy, a sailor might receive One, two, or three dozen lashes without sany trial or inquiry into the caus%e, and solely at the whim of his officer. This was a practice -which shouldi not be allowed. He would admit that exceptions might be made- of punishments in the face of an enemy, for these wrere unravoidable in many cases, as long as martial la'" continued, lHe would now mention a few instances of - funnecessary panishments, and would contend that corporal punishments Might tb)e dispensed with altogether, and that with ad. vantage to the service. He knew. well that corporal punishment was de2fended by m6any ablewriters; but some of the best ared most humane men in the service had declared it to be unnecessary. He wrould grive credit to the Admiralty for their recent regulation-that all punishments On board ships should be registered. This, no douabt, w,ould be 2 gcrtat check on many officers; but, as long as man was man, he would, if trusted with such absolute Power as offcers in the navy possessed, he would be likely to abuse it. The honourable member now proceeded to mention some instances of untiemetary s,everity towards seamnen:- the first was-in the D.qsp.&l, the C-aptain of which was superseded on his arrival in port, in consequence of the severity with which he treated --his men. It appeared that there was scarcely a man in the ship ,y.hom, he bad not punishied. The next inistaince was mentioned in 'am letter, which he (3Mr. Hame) bad received from a person wmho of- fer,d bhrnself tobe examinedon this subject. He stated, that he .bad been acarpenter on board anlIndianman, and that he had been pressed on board the Lion, 64, Captain (we think) Rolle. The cap. tain had two flogginig days in the week, Thursday and Saturday, brtidcls ftradays ; and on those days,after sermon and pra.vers, the AtceofWar werefr eas, andl the men ordlered up to be flogged. Some f th wer guily oftheoff'ences for which they werepunsher, ad otersnot or nlyguily o mior ffeaces, suc as hainga irt shrt mon hs eoths; utno matter whattheoffncewas,thepunshmnt ws te sme.Eveu if a manhadseera ceanshitain ischet,yet he has subjected to punishment for hav.inx one dirty on. In 1 .Tames'z NVaval Histor1, " when speaking of the mutiny on board the Hermi one, and of eier having been taken into Bordeaux by thle crew, it is ,Added, " Truth compels us to add, that the conduct of the cap- tain to the crew was not accordant with humnanity." Be bad heard of instances wvhere officers hadl been suspended for cruel treat- 'Ment oF their crews; but such punishment were mere farces, whien that suspension wvas only for a short time, and they wrere ag-ain re. stored. He should muach wish that a retumn of the number of offi. ters so suspended, and again restored, were laid before the house. The han. memnber then pr.oceeded to cite instances of ships where corPoral Dunishment had been altogether diseontinued, and to show, that in n6s ships of the navy was there imore st rict disciplinLe observed. Among other iastances, he~ mentioned that of the Dietator, 64, Cap. tainJamnesStuart. In that vessel, the captisi, duriniga voyage, had Ordered men to receive one., two, and in some instances three dozen lases; but finding that such putiishment was ineffectual, he had recurse to the suibstitution of solitary confinement for three days. The consequence was, that in a short time the necessity for any pu- nishment ceased to Exist, and th- ship became one of the most or- derly in the service Ho could mention many other instances to show that in.- those shsips where the least severity was re- sorted to, there the best discipline was observed. He went on to say, that he really thought it unfo-rtunate there- should he so many young Captains in the navy; for, fox his own part, he should be sorry to place mnany hundreds of his countrymen under a man who had not seen 30 winters over his head; because, even on account of his age, - it was almost impossible he should have under. gone that long ant painful discipline which alone could form a good sailor. It mightbhe matter wellworthy of thehouse'sconsideration, whether the conferring thie command of ships upon young and inex- Perienced mnen was not an objectionable practice, and one that should he inquired bito. He had it from Seamen themselvcs, that such was the nation they entertained upon the subject, that if upon in- quiring whio bad the command of the ship in hand, aboard which theyhad Perhaps proposed to enter, they were told "1Captain such a One," being one of these young Captains, it was a common reply with them.-."` Oh, then, wte will not trust our backs with him." (A laugh.) Thehouse mighitbheassured, thaLtevery, thing whichi he (IMr . Ho1me) had stated, he possessed the means of perfectliysubstan. tiating.Buthenow cameto the worst partofallthesegrievances,andthat which foisned theprincipal objectofhisintendedmotion-hemeant,the existing system of impressment. (Hear, hear.) Every body at all connected with naval affairs, or acquainted even with our seaports, must know the nature of that systema but too w-ell: and must be aware that the mnode in which tat avatem of press-gangs was con- ducted, was one repugnant to every principle of freedom. Into the details of this revolting subject, it must be, therefore, almost unne- cesry for him (Mir. Hume) to enter; but he would prem-ise what be had to say upon the matter, by maintaining that to bring men aboard ship to undergo continual danigers andbhardships, and to6fght the battles of their country, by a system of violence and coercion, was not to be endured. (Hear, hear.) He was afraid he had already trespassed upon the patience of the house too largely, but it would have been impossible for him to render his view upon the subject intlliibl, wthot satig al tesevarious8 principles with Some degee f dstictnss;andtakngthem together, he trusted thatthe ousewoud coside itto he practicable to isupply thesericewit vountersinseadof seamen brought tope- theruponcoerion Anoher nd ost important consideration was th siuaionin hic tis ounrywould stand, Supposing the present system elf mimressment were to be continued, wiiii regard to Amnerica, in the ever{t of a war. (Hlear.) Uponi that he would say a word or twropresently. As tothe captains of'our navy,bhethought there was no greatnecesity forgivingany additional encouragementto OffiCers Of that class, and there was already quite enough of them in the service, without increasing their number. But the presenit inoae of disitributing prize-money, and the custom of giving to the captains oz, King's ships all the pro fit upon convying1 Specie and jewels, were t'wo matters, the existing condition of which was a sobject of great uneasiness anid complaint to the general body of our reamen. (Hear.) What could the house thinik was the feel. ing that must be entertainedl by men' who were dragged to a service, tie duties of which they might be unwilling to fulfil, in respect of a prize distribution, the shares of which were regula-ted in the fo`l1owing proportion-a captain, 3-eighths; lieutenants end masters, 1-eighth; warrant-.officers, I-eighth : petty-officers, 1-eighth ; (Leav- igto the) Private men, 2-eighths. So that if the house supposed tecase of a shsp, with a crew of 450 mnen, having captured an eey's vesel, worth 1,0(101, th ati fteKn's ship would receive, in distribution, for his own share, 3751. ; while the whole of the seamen, the crew of 450, would altogether receive only 2501. (Hear, bear.) In respect, therefore, of what be had already said, about the propriety of increasing their pay, he would propose to add come provision for putting the common seamen on a betterfooting as to their shares in distribution of prize-money : for colald it be con- sidered fain or just, orp roper, that one officer for his own portioni, should receive a Sam half as much again as tbat which would be thu portion of the whole 450 men be commanded ? (Hlear, bear-) As to the profitis of captains and commanders upon the conveyance of plate, and specie, and jewels, he really thought it a very bad prZin.1e to Pay captainsofKn' ship forincha service at , where the articles were public p3roperty. If, on thie other hand, thegroperty ormoney belonged to inertchanta, it miight be progp r enough toallow captainsosome comn- mission1,eecing that it could be transport ed much miore safely, nnd at a cheaner rate than it could be in merchant ships ; but why the Public should PaY their owni ser'vants for.such a duty, by this additi- coal2 remuneration, he could not at all understand. Biut be now came to aquestion Of vast imPortance; and that was, how should we stand in case Of hostilities with any state of Eur6pe ? a case in which Ame. lcat could, tinder scarcely any circumstances, be left out of the question. Fur itwas notorious thiat the right whilch we had always claimed, and had never given up.-tsrgto erh.elecie as it had go often been, upo'n Amlerican vessels for the discovery of British seamen, was the Principal cause of our late war wvith tels United States He felt, therefore, no hesitation in saying that our slystem Of. imprressment bad been the principal cause of that pil>. in th rcrdedt -nessage Qf the President to Conxgress, this rihlt of search, so exereised, stood No. I among the causes of dis- agreemen: between America and (ireat Britain. There was no person atall acquainted with these matters who would not be per- fectly aware of the vast imnortance which America attached to this sub,ect. He (Mr. Hume) held in his hand copies of letters from vanous American seamen who had been impressed on board British ship3 of war. They had been publishedand circulated threugh the United States with the greatest rapidity ; and he beliered he might add, their perusalhad fanmed that flame of vexation and discontent which at length terminatectin openwarbetween thetwo coutries; This wasthe information he had received from many American subjectas whom he had consultedoel the subject.lt seemed thata paper was set upin America, exprmesly intended for the publication and drculation of the complaints of American swamen,who had been so subjected to ourrmpreesment; and the effectof those complaints was extensive and complete; forthey excited sgainit this country a deep feeling of hatred and animosity. - (Here the honoumableogentleman readci a statemcent of thbt-.kindpurrrporting to be from an Ameirican mariner, inamed " lsac Clarke",of Salem (United Statea), setting forth vs. ious acts of cruelty exercired on board a British ship into wihich he had been impressed against l inm, the deponent, and that no less than d,978Anmerican seamen had been impressed in the course of the mar into our service. Thiz number might undoubtedly be ex- ;s%,gerzted, (A laugb, and cries of " hear, hear.) He (Mr. Humie) tiooaht hirmnelf tha it nwa overcbarged (bear, hear) - but the cei le cplained f, not the- aectua number of tio3e who ed to ita operation was to be loohid nt. -Be I by no means intended to vouch thaLt this 'statement was cor- e~ c(hear, bear)- but the question was, would the hon,_.entle- tleasn opposite wRns rie " he" take upib themsevefl toaeiifft? (Ch-ers.If c2,he would call foirthe log.hookcofsthc,-Briuship to whichthe Fgaer referred, and then the house might see whether, upon the day in question,i suchband cribh a punishment hsadlben,in. Hece no kcem aCT ed at thss very cetioss coas?c?ation, w1iich- hecearnestly presse upon the house'; and] it was, whether it was not I much better to thinik of altering the sYstem he spke of now, in a time of profound peace, so that in the event of a f.uture war it mlght be already done away with, and thg disastrous conseunces thtt he anticipated from its continuance might be no longer to be d readi- ed ? For if this system of impressment were to beconitinuea, hekuewv not how~ the navy couldl continue to subsist. (Hear.) The same la- mentable eff'ects would be again experienced that had been found to result fromn it at the breaking out of the late wiar, when our seanien,. to avoid its oppressions and its press-gangs,,fled in every direction to seek a ret'uge in America, in Holla id, in everycountry where they could imagine themselves safe oat of its reac. Under these circumtusancees, he must he allowed to contend, that what he awas for submitting Ito the consideration of Parliament, was a question of great national importance, anid that he had already shown there existed ainplegrounds for going into the inquiry he proposed. Let the houise l7ook to the practice which obtained in America. There there was no8system of compulsory impressment- every mnan who served on hoard the ships of the republic was a vo- luntfeer-proper bounties were allowed to the seamen, anti they were enteredt for only a limited termn of service. And he (Mur. Hume) hacl great doubts,whether,even under our present syscem of coercion, if it should unlianpily be continued, it m,ght not be found much better to adopt this limnited term of service. He was perfectly aware that the subject he was disicussing was oneriot very agreeableI tomnany indiyiduals whom he saw in that house. The subject was of nseessity crowded with details--that it would be tiresome to some [hon. gentlemien, he was prepared to expect.; and to those who had al- ready madeup their minds upon it, any furtherobservations he could offer would he of course of very little consequence. But the matter itself he did conceive to be of sinigular imnportance to the best interests of the -nation (hear) ; and he was persuaded that Par- liament, when it looked to the melancholy cansequances of impress- ment, particularly with regard to our connexions with America, would feel persuaded that it might be well to guard against them in future. Perhaps he mightbe asked what the practice was, as to im- pressment, in France? le apprehended th-t it was,to acertain de-. gree, a tystem of conscription. The merchant service and fisher- men were exempted from rerving in the army, on condition of serv- ing in the marine for a particular period. He woula have the com- mittee inquire wvhat was the practice of France, of EHolland, of Ame-. rica, and of every other maritime state, totihne impressment, or The mode of neiasniai their fleets ; anid though hie did not maean to say thathe would have this Government model its future systemby chat of eitheroft'hose countries,yethe wouldhave them approximateita&smuch as possible to the beat rule that was furnished us by foreigners. The ge- neral answer to such aproposition as he was about to submit was,how was the existing pr-actice to be done away wvith ? and -what was to be substituited inthe place of thtt which it w,as ropose4 to discontinue? Nowhe had no hesitation in saying thatT~e could submiit aplan which to him appearedl very satisfactory (hear); but which, as he might not be sensible ofnumerous defects that existeclin it, he should be very presumnptuous to offer. lie thought that a much ra',re like- ly mode of effectinig a permanient good and a beneficial alteration would be, the committee's c-alling for and examining the many schemes for the abolition of impressment which had been subpnitted to that house; Others whiich had been promulgated, tliough they had never been brought before Parliament ; and such new ones as the hon. memnbers of the committee mnight themselves suggest or intro- duce. An examination of their various hearings might enable thlem to arrive at re,ults whbich would be most satisfactory and practicable. One of the evilz to be deplored in the peetconstitution of our navy was, that our ships were niot sufcetly or effectively mannedl. A very considlerable number of men out of evcry 100 of them, tak-ing the whole average of the navyy, would be founid, perhaps, to b6 landsmen andl bad seainen. If the house considered the various principles whiclh lie had submitted it would be most desirable to sanction and establish-the number of men to be employed-the making the remuneration in money more equivalent to the services to be performied-the granting to the sea- men such privileges arising from their service as might be commen- -surate with its dangers andi its duration, he had no doubt they would concur with him in thinking that the effect df putting those principles in action would be to provide the country with a navy, mannetl most effectively,but withfout difficulty,by volunteers instead Of imPressed seamen. (Hear.) By these means, too, the whole scheme of ress-gangs, guard-slhipq, and prison-ships, would be re- mvdanwith it teexpense o 'that establishmnert which was niow found necessary in guardin- the men who w"re impresed -.an esta- blishmenjt consisting of 3,06' persons, and of which alonethe expense had amounted,during the war, to between 300,0001. and 400,0001.,and 400,0001. and 500,000l. per annum.(Elear.) Upons the grounds he had stated, he really thiought no hon. gentleman, however disposed he mighitbe to vote again'st the motion, could, in honour or justice, refuse to Yote for such an inquiry as a comimittee might institute, provided he were of Opinion that the present system did require isome altera- tion. He (i~llr Huine) was mnost anxious that audli a coni- mnittee should be appointed ; hut at present asked only that honoctrable gentlemen would pledge themselves to such a mneasure in the ensuing sessions of Parliamnent. He would conclude by movin as a resolution, "1That this house, being well awvare of the tliffiaulty of maunnig the navy in a time of war, and of the evils of forcibly impressing men for that purpose; and considering that a time of profound peace will best admit of the fullestand fairest examination of that most important subject, will, early in the next session of Parliament, take that sutbject into their inost serious consideration, with a view to the adoption of such regu- lations a's may prevent those evils in futuire, consistently with the efficecncy Of the navy, and the best interests o; the country." (Hear.) Mr. ROBERLTSOJN seconded the motion, because he thought in- quiry' was a good thing; but lie was by no means satisfied that suchi a commnittee as the hon. gentleman recommnended wouldl effect the PurPoses which that hon. member appeared to anticipate front it. For his own part, he was not sure that there was not much less dispo- sition to desertion in the navy than in the meuchant service. He did riot believe it possible to do without the imnpressm-ent of seamen (hear, hear) ; but being willig to see whether any, thing, aind whbat, could be done towards attaining the objects which the hon. gent. hlad in view he would support the resolution. Sir G?. C6CKBURN said he found great difficulty in follow. ing the hon. member for Aberdeen through the verv extended range wliich he had taken in his speech; for though the hon. gen. tlemnan had stated in the commencement that he would confine hiMSelf eo the question of impressment, he had digressed, at a coni. siderable length iotesubject of the discipline of the navy. In his! (Sir G. oc buru's) answer, it would be necessary for him to divide his observations into two parts ; the first relating to, impress. ment. Indeed, the subject of impressment had been almiost got rid of by the very secondex of the motion, wvho had asserted his be- lief that imnpressment could not be done away with. Now, in the case of an evil of this descript-ion ~o an evil he admiitted impress. merit to be, (hear)-if it was consi ered that it could not be got rid of, it was much better that no ho should be improperly held Out. He was satisfied, however, that he spoke the sentiments Of every naval officer in that house, wvhen he said that they would be deli-ghted, if it were possible to car-er on the service without con. tinuing the practice of impressmient. Every body would feel how unl easant it must be for officers to command men who had been brou.ght by fOrce to serve under them, and whoam they were to tAke into battle. But still he must declare, that his owrn mioral convic- tion was, that there was no possibility of maintainiing our naval strength and superiority, witlioutmaintaining alsothielaw of impress. meat. Hle called it a law, though he felt how unequal he was te argue a pohiit of law to the house; but the hon. gent, mnight have told thiem that Lord Mansfield, when a seaman whio had been imnpressed wvas brought up before him bykiabeascorpus,finally disposed of thecase by saying thatthe man had uotshown sufficientlvthathie wasexemnpted by the statute, and had not proved any common law right against the impressment, aiid thlerefore he seat him back to the shiip to which hehbelonged. Lord Keniyon, in a judigmeuut on a similar case, had extended the liability to impressmaent to all persons exercis-ing employments in the seafaring line. (Hecar, hear.) Now, there was one ottier clear reason why, as he thought, this power of impress. inent ceuld never be parted with-thea country could never have a sufficient number of mnen to man both the navy and the mnerchant service, unless the same nuniber of meni were waintafined in timne of peace as in war. It was quite clear that .at the conclusion of a war, when 100,000 seamen were brought into Our ports and paid off, there could be little or no em- Ploynient for them, and they would disptrse in every direction. Bnt suPPosing they got employment of a different sort, what would be the consequence?~ He appealed to all his gallant niaval friends who heard himi, to say whether the trade of a seaman, like every other trade, did not require constant employment to keep him effective. Even if they were all kept in a barrack together on shore, the effect would still be the same, not to mention the enormous expense that the country would be put to. The fa%ct was, however, that our ports were full of inerchantmnen, mranned (no thanks to the hon. memiber for Aberdeen) from the full war complement of our navy Whiut, then, would be the state of the country at the breaking out of a war, ?-these maen could all be gt at, and made available; for our mnerchantineni were full of them. But, on the other hand, in war, our navy took charge of the inerchantmen ; and for a merechant ship, landsmen, old invalids, and ordinary seamen would suffice: there- fore, though it could not be denied that the system was liable to objection, yet it must be allowed that it werked well, and that no difficulty was experienced, except that which arose from taking the mnen by force instead of recevung them &s volunteers. Without this% system had been ascertainied to be tolerably effective, could any one suppose that in the state in which Eutrope wyas even onlY a -year ago, our men of war couild have remained ouiet in thfeir harbours? efore however, volunteers could have bien got, our naval force must have been enlarged to such an extent as woald -have enabled it to cope with the navy of France, at least;- as it was however, our ships remained quietly in port, withiout any~ additional expense wvhatever to the counitrv, auid yet -a Buffie7ment nuim.ber of hands might at any tiune have been got out of out' mercbauitmen in any corner of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He dlid not know whether the hon. mnember for Aberdeen was awvare that seamen were impress. ed in time of war only, and not in, timle of peace. It was only in cases ofemnergenqv, easat the breakingout of a war, that the power of imprssmnt ws eercised. Tie very preamble of'the pres-warrant recte ths mereny. Nowthe house would be good enough torecol- lccttha duingthewhole of tie war we had a larger commerce than eve duingthepeae,for wc had in Our own hands9 the conmmerce of the hol word. ut the hon. gentleman had talked a great deal abot te speror anning and the superior facilities of mnanning. the Akmerican navy. Why, itmaus-t be obvious that to man our navy, which had the whole of our vast commerce to take care of, and which was enlarged to a force of 800 vessels of war in service, was a much mLore difficult thing to do than to man half a dozen Ameri. can frigates. Yet this increased diffiEculty of nianning our slIips y?as brought by the hon. gentleman as an argument against the sffivice generaly, to which he (Sir G. Cockbumn) had the honour to belongs and for the character and reputation of which he might be allowed to say he felt the deepest interest. (Heer.) It was not to be denied, indeed, that occasionally during the war, such a difficulty did oc- cur; but after the peace the aifflculty bad gone all the other way. He (Sir George Cockburn) bad received a letter, for exarnple, very recently from a friend of his on boariTin East In. diamnan. The letter stated that the Indiaman had been lyingat an- chor for six weeks, unable to proceed because of the number of her hands who had deserted into a man of war. (Hear.) lndeed, the Admiralty -perhaps going beyond what they were strictly au- thorized to do- bad found it necessary, owinig to repeated com6 plaints of the same evil, to issue orders to cominanders on foreign stations not to take on board hands who offered themselves out of merchantmen. Yet by statute, it was very certain that every man had a right to enter himsclf on board a man of war; and by doing so he. cleared his articles with the master of the merchantman. Notwithstanding this, so nu- merous had been the representations he spoke of, that the Ad. miralty had been compelled to direct commanders not to take merchant seamen in csses where their quitting was likely to dis- tress the nerchantmen. It had happened to himself (Sir George Cocktburn) at St. Elelena to be under the necess- ofmakinga simi- lar order, on many applications from merchants and masters. Nowa the luononuable entleman had rather unfairly imputed to the British navy this defect-tliat the seamen were very prone to desertion; and this disposition the lion. gentleman at- tributed to the effect of our irpressment system. He bad then con- trasted thcesoftheAmericavy t seamen were voluntleers, they were tobe trtisted, and never aesertezl. It was but a very little whtile ago that lhe (Sir G. cockburn) haa re- ceived a letter from a corimandinig officer on the-Mediterraneaa sea-. tion, in 'which the officer wrote to-this effect-." I'am now lying al&naside 'an American 74. ily taen- go ashore 'by themselves; in -divisions every day, and return always wheit their leave is out. Her men never gzo ashore without a guasa over them, to prevent themi from deserting; and they are constantly. ap - plying tq be taken on board us as seamen. (Hfear, heat.) He would contend that the condition of a Britislh seaman nowv on board ship, was per6ias better than that of any man of his class. The state of the country did not allow imen enougli to man both the nierchiant service and the navvy; and our policy was therefore to keep up in tims& of peacea sufficient nuniber of seamen to mian theships of war in commiissioin upon the peace -establishtment. At the presen.t mo- mfent, however, the commerce of the counitry had become so mtuch extended, that it was thought necessary to make some addition to the comhplement of men allotted for the squadron which was mamntin- ed by this Govemnment. Beyond the number required for the mner- chant service, and that peace squadrons it would be impracticable tokepu any considerable body; for the effect of attempting to so,wou oly e o divethm itoforeign service To create a grate bod ofseamn tan terewas an actual necessity for,was o d mishieinstadogood Hi own mnind was quite made up t opose he on. entemans mtio but more particularly as t wnt o gve pldgeforthenet session, which -would be tantmout W delaraiontha Paliaent was intending to do that which be felt it wvould be imnproper to induice any persont to expect. kle now came to the second division of tbis subject-the discipline of the fleet. Thiehon. gent.thought that one of the greatest defects of the service was the power given to caPtarns to punisbh wrong-.doers. Here, again,he (ir G.Cockburn)conicevedthepowerwtbe absolute- ly necessary ; admittinig that those ships wherein it was least ex- erted were generally the best managed andathe best rogulated.(Hear.) Butlet tbehouse~picture to themselves thecaseof a few officers-say 15 orlO...prhaps straLngers to the ship and ctrew, coming on board aship of the liene with a crew of 000 men, who-m tiey -were destitked to command, and about to sail to the mnost distant latitudes. It was known that even by the astaute the very dregs of the people, the worst criminals even wire not unfrequently sent onhoardaship; and could itbe doubted that oversuch acrew , anid undersuch. circumn- stances, it was necessary to invest the commander with a power of punishmeat, calculated to strike a momentary terror, and to re. press the dangerous disturban6ces that would be so likely to arise at a vastdistancefrom their home,amoaga saultitudeofmen removed from the more imm-ediate contemplatiori of the laws and tribunals of their country? Whilehe was for preservingthis power, he was for using it as seldom as possible. The very -knowvledge, however, that it wmis possessed, might often deter men who were ill-disposed from the coimmission of violence, or from other misconduct. The hon. gen- tleman had suggested that there should be somue alteration in thec mode of paying ships on foreign stations; and wh en sailors had been long abroatd in them, it wras certainlydesirable that they should be fu.rnished withbapartofthemoniesduetothem. Butitwas not to be forgotten, that much had been already done towardst this end. By the allotment system, the sailor eoi~ld leave. half his pay to be taken up by his family at home:? while at sea be had his victusals as mnuch as he wansted, hiu wine, his clothing, and all necessaries;- aind when he was ill, he had every, meclical attention, so that he could only want money for a" froIc," as it was called, on shore, and a very natural wis on his part it was. Bat it was not to be denied that if this was an advantage, that the seamen could leave half his pay, it was, equally agreeable to hiim that on his return from a long cruise, hie could receive the other half all at once: for it was well known that a sailor at all times liked to have plenty, or a " whack," of money, whien be came home to enjoy Iiimself. 'With- out holding these uip, however, as temptations to a servico whiich re. qured nothing of the sort,be (Sir G. Cockburn) would mairntain,from hisown informationanid experience,thatgenerally speaking service on board an English man ofwar-was the most popular service in thiewerld. The statements which the hiouse had heard from the lion,. gentleman wyere very, mucli exaggerated; and at this moment Bsitish seamiea were particularly disposed t6 be contented, particularly silice they had received from the liberality of Partliamenit thiat' boost in the " long service pensions," whiceh would do them more good, and ef- feet for the service a far more peimanent benefit, than all the hon. gentleman's speeches. (A laugh.) Every sailor, after 14 years' service uniess he deserted, was now entitled to a pension for life; and a?ter 20'years' service, not only to a considerably increased pension,' but to demand his discharge, the Admiralty havinig steadily refusied to entertain the -very numerous applications ithat bad been made bysae who had deserted, and wished to avail themselves oftoepiiee,to get the" ~LR" taken fromi thecir names in the bosfthNayfice. He (Sir George Cock. burn) was confidet thti eyfw years, the crime of deser- tion woula be more scarce in te Biihnv tanin any other public service. He shaddcddyopoeti oinnd hoped to be in a large majrt gis t Ha. Sir ISAAC COFI a n ftoewohdin fact been termed by the honorbemebrfrAberdeen "a white Neger" (laughter), beggedI to remnind the house, that Admiral Bourmaster, Admh-al Mlitclhell, Admiral Sir Thomas Trowbridge, Captain BuLtterfield, and Captain Cook-.all of them, as evtry one knew, mTen of' the highiest celebrity, and talent, and character-were at their outset impressed as commion seamnen. (Hlear.) These were the white slavess the hon. genaeleman talked of too. (A laugh.) He (Sir I. COfRn) thought imipressmuenit couild not be dispeasedwith, andavoted against the resolution. -Mr. I.IOBHOUSE defebided, at some length, the speech of the hon. memiber for Aberdeen;, and slhowed that the phrase particularl.v alluded to by the gallant admiraj who had just sat down was not meant by hishon. friesidin any off'ensive sense atall. He calledthie seamen who were impressed "1white slaves," because, torn from their hiomes and famiilies, and occupations against their wills, they were dragged into imprisonment, and into the midst of perils and hardshipm. and even into battle, against their consent, and in violation ofthat Mieedoi which every, other British stibject was supposed to possess. They, were, against their will, violently dragged to the de- fence of a cause which, if they were free agents, thiey might feel everY disposition to advocate and to fight for ; but whichn1 as being a partof the service thlus forced upon them, they miist fevel it a degra. datioii to serve- AII. Hume the historian had said somewhere, that this practice of impressment was one of the three great aniomalies thlat were irrecoTncileable in the British constitution ; for after men- tioning two others, he asked bow it was to be accounted for, that an Englishinan who was generally reckoned so free as to action, perSOn, an property, was herein liable to be hurried by force away, not only to imprisonment but, to the ex- Posure of his life against, bis own consent? The gallant admiral (Cockburn) had talked a good deal abotit the care of the Admiralty for the navy, and spoke with some indifference about the exertions of the hoit. member for Aberdeen : but that hon. gentleman had done at least as much good service to his country as the gallantt admiral, andahad received from his countrymen the most uniequivo. cal ex I f th' ' ithat be had done so. (Hear.) HIe ealwdto state, that he liad spokenl only a daY or two ago- to a gallant naval officer-decorated wvith the cross of one Of our orders,' and most deservedly so de- corated, for his gallanit conduct-..who had told him, that un- less something were done before the breaking out of a new war to alter the present system of impressment, it wouald be found imnpossible any longer to execute pcess-.warrsunts suchi was the in- creased knowledge of the people, and such their k-nowledge of their rights, that the resistance to those wars-ants wouald be greater than ever it was before. (Thebhon. gentleman in a -speech which our limits compel us to omit even an outline OFt after comnmenting on th~e illegality of impressment, and the general maisapprehension in respect of the derivation of the term, which was wrongly supposed by some to imply a legal sanction for the use of physical force, proceeded to reply in detail to the speech of Sir George Cockburn; contending that that hon. and gallant meusiber had done much to lay a ground for carrying and not opposing the resolution of the bon. member for Aberdeen; to which he, in conclusion, expressed his initention of giv ingZ his warmest support.) Sir G. COCKBURN, in explanation, omplaiRed that some part of his speech had been misrepresented by the hon. memiber for Westminster in commnenting on it. Captain GORDON opposedl the motion, andl calledon the house to beware how they dealt withi the usefid power of impressment, upon which the strength of our navy and the welfare of the lcin6- dom hiad more than once been found so depend in times of public emergency. Ilir. IV. SMiNTH thought the present the most au ielons mo- ment for considering the means which couldl be adopted to remedy what even the gallant admiral opposite admitted to be an evil. He doubted not that the attention of the'Admiralty badl been di- rected to the subject; but still he thouglht that there was no reason for refusing ani inquiry. The condition of the army had of late years been greatly amended, but the improvement was not more to he ascribed to the exertions of the Commander-in-Chief, than to the speeches of the hon. baronet near him (the member for Westmin- ster). The evil was ack-nowledged-thie difficulty was acknowledged: undersucb circumstances, inquiryseemed theonly reaSDnable course, and with this view, he should sit down by supporting the motion olf t'ne lion, member for Aberdeen. Sir GEORGE, CLERK thought, as far 2a inquiry was neces sary, the Admiralty was the proper body to enter into it. No one supposed that the press system could bet defended upon any ground exceptihat of necessity ; but withoutrecourse to it, it would be quite impossible to make those siudden and extensive levies which the ser- vice ofthe navy frequently required. It donstantly happened that the sudden exhibition of a large siaval force was of the utmost con- sequence to the prosperity of the country; and frequently, perhaps, prevented thle necessity of our going to war. The hon. baronet then Proceeded to discuss the degree of hardship attendant uipon the im- press system-a; and contended, that while the drawing for the millitia continued, the severity of the pres couild scarc-ely be called :.1r WARRE dissented altogether from the doctrine that ir,quiiry into the subjectoughttobeprofessional. Th~etwo tribunalsswhich had been appointed already upon the state of thle navy-.the Board of Naval inquiry, end the Board of Naval Re-vision-neither of these Boards had been composed exclusively of professional persons. With re-spect to the general discipfine on board ships of war, he (AMr. Warre) wished much that any mode couild be devised of curbing the present arbitrary jurisdiction. Sir E. HARVEY said, that the imipress service had on half a ~dozen occasions been the means of protecting British commerce from losses which wouild have been ittle short ofdptutn -h trad of thecoantry could never be safe, untess, at the breaking out of a var, 20,000 or 30,000 sailors could be raised in three months; and-it lvas-impossible to effect such lencs-in any other way than by impressing Sir ROM ERT WILSON voted for the motion of his hon. friend near bin,, merely because he wished to see the British navyinaflou- rishing condition. Whatever reasons there might be for resisting a cltapge of the present system, for resisting inquiry into it there could be no reason at all. lUr. HUME shortly replied, after whichthe house divided, and the numbers were- For the motion 361 Against it, 1081 Majority, 70. THIE C2ITHOL C ASSOCIATION. 111r. BROWNLOWV rose, pursuant to notice, to move that the petition wvhich he had presented on a former evening, against the Roman CatholicAssociation, bereferrea to thecommitteenoweittiag to inguiire into the state of Ireland. The ground of his motion was, thatt te Catholic Association was one of the principal causes of the disturbances which prevailed in Ireland. The members of that body had been described, and he thought very properly, as the bellows- blowers who fanned the bad passions of their countrymen into the flameofdiscontent. Seeking only the gratification of their vanity and self-interest, they were utterly regardless of the success of the cause which they pretended to advocate. He bad been 'accusel of being actuated by party motives; but that was not the eme. If, in- deed, he desired the Catholic cause to'be brought into discredit, his wish could not be more easily attained than, by allowing the Catho- li Associationtcontinueits presentcour'se. (Hear.) He conclud- ed by a motion of the nature above-mentQ jnEd. 'lMlr. EL TWISS said lie would suppoi- thte motion for the same reasons which would induce him to vote in: favour of the motion of theright hon.baronetoposite (Sir J.Newport)for referring the petitions against tl9 Orange Zssogationslwdomf4e hoittse above stais; namely-that he considered both amSOciatiors to be, in some degree, connected with the disturbances of Ireland. He highly disapproved of the proccedings of the CatholicAssocia. tion, and he trusted that as a frefnd of the question of Ca. tholic emancipation , he shoald not-be considered lukewarm-, yhlen he decared his belief that if the Association were to eontinue in ex. istence, the number of votes ia that house in favour of that measure would yearly decrease. (HRear.) He trusted that he should not be considered presumptuous in coming forward publicly to en- treat, nay, to^warn the menthers of the Catholic Association, if they were friends to the cause they professed to advo- catetheywouldanticipate the acts of Government and dissolve themselves. Every day's experience strengthened his opinion that the dissolution of the Cathellc Association must be the first emnanci- pationwhich the Catholics could obtain. (Hear.) MIr. CANNING said he would support the motion for referring thepetition to the Committee on the state of Ireland, because he con- sidered the association to which the petition referred to he one of the subjects to which that comnittee ought to direct their attention. Theproceedings of theCatholicAssociation were so neatlybalanced be. tweenlegality,andillegality that they required to be narrowly watch. ed. But he felt no hesiticn iui saying, as a Mlsinister of the Crown, that as at present advised, it was not the intentioIn of the Govern- ment to propose any new law with regard to the Association. He, however, entirely concurred in the advice which had been given to the Association by an honourable and learned member (Mr. 'wiss.y ae thought they were pursuing a mnot dangerous course in con- tinuing their proceedings, witho-ut considering how nearly they ex- posed themselves to the extremity of the law. MiUr. C. HUTCHINSON objected to the motion. He thought that the Catholic and the Orange Association could not be fairly compared. The Cathlolic Associations met epublicly to complain of their sgrievances; but the meeings of the Orange Societies took place in secret. Sir J. NE:WPORT sstid, that if the motion before the house should be agreed to, it would be impossible to refuse consent ;o the motion which he should subsequently submit-for refer- ring to the committee on the state of Ireland the pedtions which had been presented against the Orange Societies. In order to exhibit to the house the nature of the proceedings of the Orange lodges, the hon. bart. read a rePort of the transactions of a meeting of the Grand Orange Lodge in the city of Dublin on the 2d of February. The members of thelodge expressed " their gratisude to their uncompro- misingfriend,SirBradley King." (Laughter.) Theyalso declared that they highly valued the services of the "talented patriot Sir Har- court Lees." (Laughter.) The report also contained a regular fi. nance pLan, and called upon the People to furnish voluntary sub- scriptions in support of the Orange Societies. If he had no other ground to warrant him in declaring t':at Orange Societies were dan. gerous a suficient one would be furnisend by (he report to which he hati refcrred. (Hear.) Mr. H. SUNJNER epposer the motion. Mr. PEEL said, it did appear to him almost a matter of course to send this oetition to the committee sitting up stairs, as the dis- tusbances wire attributed in thatpetition to the Catholic Association; and on the principle of fairness, he should also assent to the propo- sition of the hon. member for Waterford, for referring the petitions cornpla' inz of the Orange Asocistion. MITr. S. RICE said, he should give his most hearty assent to both tePropositions. Sir F. BLAKE supported the motion. 1Ir. DAWSON strenuously defended the conduct of the Orange Associations, and for the purpase of enlighteninz the house on that sabject, hc would give his assent to the mrotion, convinced as he was that the Orangemen themselves were anxious to have their conduct examined, and that they would be found as blameless any other subjects of the empire. The question was then put, and the petition was ordered to be referred to the committee for inquiring into the state of the disturbed districts in Ireland. On the motion of Sir J. NEWFPORT, the petitions of the inhabit- antsof Cavan and other pLsces, complaining of the conduct of tne Orange Association, were also referred to the same committee. The third readinig of the East India trade bill, and the second reading of the East India possession bill,wete postponed tiU to-mor- row (this day); Sir. C. FOnBEs and Mir. HOitME having expressed their determination to debate the question of the tea-trade, when the former measure azain came before thelhouse; and Mlr. ROERT- sox and Mlr. H umzE having declared their intention of fullydiscuss- iug the second bill, which was of very great importance to the com- mercial wnrld.-The house a(ljourned AT THREE O'CLOCK. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TxUASDAT. JUSE 10. DUBLIN EQUITABLE LOAN BILL.