House Of Commons, Monday,...
The Times, 1824-03-30T00:00:00

Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from an individual re- siding in Liverpool, againist the bankrup: laws' amendment bill. Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from a considerable number ot' watenren, who ply at the '1 ower stairs, against the St. Catherine Dock bill. .Mr. T. WILSON presen:cd a petition from certain watermen plying below London bridge, against the proposed new iron bridge. Mlr. II USKISSON presentedi a petitioni from certain importers of wo,l, preying that the duty on the importation of foreign wool might be reducedl to the same rate at wlhch it stood before it was last advanced. 3Mr. H. G. BENNET took that opportunity of com plaining that thc Chancellor of the Exchequer had consented at a late hour on a formner evening to raise the dutv on exported raw wool from Id. to 2d. Mr. C[, RNES said a f'ew 'words to the same effect. Lord MI L,TON thought that the agricultural interest would not be injured by the change which had taken placc. Sir E. K'NATCHBULL said, that t%c duty of two-pence a pound on raw wool would amount to a prohibition of the exporta- tioni of that article. After a few words from Mr. WORTLEY, Sir I. PARNELL, and M3r. BlLtciGT, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mlr. II USMISSON presented a similar pctition from the wool growers of the countv of Durham. Mr. ST ULART WORTLEY said a few words which were in- jaudible in the gallery. 31r. HIUMiI E complalined of a breach of faith in the introduction at a late hour of the night of the duty of 2d. per lb. MIr. BENNET said that he had no objection to the Chancellor of the Exchequer hearing the representations of all parties interest- ed. although lie could nOt approve of what had been done in this rnatter.-The petition was laid on the table. Mr. IiUShlSSON presented a petition fromi the wveavers of I Manchester against the combination laws. Mr. DAVENPORT presented a petition from several licensed victuallersacainst thie licence duties. ir. PETER3100RE presented a petition from a number of journcyimin brass-tounders against the conmbination laws. Mr. MACPHERSOX G(RANT presented a petition from the wool-growers of Sutherland against any alteration in the wool duties. Mr. M. A. TA YLOR presented a pctition from else curriers and tanners of' Durham against the hides and skins' bill. Mr. I,A.MBTO.N presented a sinmilar petition from the tanners and( curriersof' South Shields. lie also presented a petition trom Suiderland against siavery its the Xi'est Indies. IND)IAN PRESS. M11r. LAMBTON gave notice, that soon after the recess, he meant to present to that house a petition from Mr. Buskingham, latc of Calcutta, complaining of severe grievances which he had en- i dured froiii the Govcrunient of India, and stating a case of oppres- sion swhich seriously affected the condition of the public press in that empire. Sir WS'ILLIAM INGILBY presented two petitions from dis- tricts in the countv of Y'ork. against slavery in the IVest Indies. Mlr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition troiti 2,000 irndivi- duals in the tow-n ot Hlalifax agaillst tlle conibination laws. (O) the issotiols of the lion. Alderman, an account Vwas ordered of the nurnber of vessels employed at sea by the Post-office. lIord EBRINGTON presensted a petition froisi the licensed vic- tualiers of Tavistock, agtdnst thc licence duties. The noble lord, in preFenting two petitions front Atlierley, aisd another place in the county of Devon. against tli coasting coal duties, conmplained of their oppressive operation. Ir. BUCIIANAN presented a lietition from the ship-builders of the port of Greenock agains; the duty on hemp. illr. LINDSAY presented a petition from the Notaries of Dun- dee, aea.i.nst the tax upon their profession. On the mlotion of Mr. CURNVEN,aceounts were ordered to show the ansount atsd qaalitsn ot the exports of different kinds of grain from Ireland atsd Scotland, during the last five years, specifying the ports to andl froni. Sir R6BERT SHAW presented a petition from 31r. Jeremiah Houghton, a woollet nmanufacturer of Celbridge, in the county of Dublin, against any alterations in the wool duties. Mr. EVAN'S presented two petitions froiss places in the counties of York and Rutland, againist slavery in the West Indies. Mr. KE ITH DOUG LAS presented a petition from the notaries of Kircudbriglht, against the tax on their profession. Sir E. KNATCH BULL presented a petition from the parish of St. P'aul, Deptford, agaiiist the coal dutics ; one from the sanse body against the house and window tax; and also a petition from Mlr. ArglesBishop, of laidstotse, against the present disti2lery laws. :\lr. COURTENAY presented a petition from a port in Devon. shire against the repeal of the fishery bounties. The hon. member also presetsted a petitinii from Exeter, praying for some alteration in the coal duties, owing to their partial and unfair operation. iMlr. NEWMAN earnestly called the Chiancellor of the Ex- chequer's attention to the justice and necessity of attending to the pratyer of this petition. Air. H. G. BE NNET said, that the repeal of unjust taxes ought fronm day to day to be forced upon the consideration of his lajesty's ministers. Lord 31ILTON concurred in Isis hon. friettl's geiieral recom- mendation, altliough lie doubted if sea-borne coal was the tax which ouglit first to be taken off: They ought rather to call for the reduction of those taxes which more generally affected the country at large. Lle admitte(d that the coal-tax was in its origin impolitic, but us- terests had grown up under it, which might require consideration: at dll eventst, the reduction of the window tax ought first to be considered. Mr. GRENFELL said, that the inequalitv of this coal-tax was a sufficient reason to cal. tor its repeal. Mr. N. CALVERT concurred in this opinion. lfr. W. SMI2TH strongly urged the repeal of the tax. The CHANCELLOR 6f the EXCHEQUER said, that as so many appeals liad beeni made to hin, he was afraid that the ground of his proceeding respectitig this tax had been misunderstood. In the first place. lie had never affected to maintain that titis tax was not unequal in its operation, and did not press with severity upon parts of t'le couintry. But as it was a duty which had subsisted for up- wards of a century, and one, therefore, for the introduction of which the present gencration were not responsible itwas necessary to con- sider a little the various interests which had grown up with the mea- sure. He d4id not mean to say that those interests ought to operate as a bar to the reduction of the tax, but merely that they were entitled to some consideration. He thought, therefore, that this was not, consideing the other taxes of the country, one which ought at once to be repealed. He thought himself right hi the course which he had begun to take respecting this tax, and he felt that in taking off the 3s. 4d., which affected the population of this great metropolis, they wvere administering essential relief, whichl they would not have been doing had they taken off the same aniount by spreading it over a larger surface at one shilling, or some such sten. He thought it riglt to begin wvith reducing what he deemed the more aggravated part of this tax, which certainly was felt by the inhabitants of Lon- don. He could not admit the priniciple of regulating taxation, upon the supposition that those were tthe wealthier part of the community, and could best bear a larger sum of taxes: the tax affected them more severely, and he had begun with repealing the most objection- able part of' it. Sir Al. *Y. RIDLEY rose to protest against the injustice with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was treating the coal-owners of the north. The alteration which he had announcead his inteation of making gave the inina coal-owner advantages in. the niatlcet fgar superiorto those which it gave to those of the,north. The duty on inland coal, which haad formherly been 7s. 6d., was now reduce to1 Is. a ton; wbiltethe,du on gea-borne coal, which had. formerly been 9s. 4d., wita only reduced to 6s. a chaldron. He did not washi to have any additional burden placed on the inland coal, but he did wish the northern coal to come into the market on equal terms with it. The house would see, that under tie exi!sting arrangementst .that was completely impossible. He now gave notice, that immie- diately after the recess, he should move for the repeal of all the duties on coals carried co letwise. Mvr. LITTLETON declared his intention of supporting the pro- pition of his right hen. friend the Chancellor of- the Exchiequer, and contended that even the duty of Is. a ton on iniland coal was- more than ouglht to be imposed upon it. Mr. S. WORTLF~Y considered the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be unfair to the coal-owners of the north, as it allowed their opponents to bring into the mnarket, at an easy- rate, ai cheaper andI an iriferior article. Alir. HUMIE said that hie couldI suggest a p an to the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by which ble could get rid of the difficulty which his proposition appeared to have created. That plan was to take ofFaIllthe dulty on bothkinds of coal. (A laugh.) Indeed, he wondtered how the right hon. gent. could allow a sinking fund of 5,000,0001. to continue for the mere purpose of purchiasing 3 per cent. stock at 95, when, by putting an, end to it, he could allow the coal-duties, the window..ta:i, and all the assessed taxes to be re- pealed immediately. He trusted that thebhon. gentlemen who com- piLained so much of'the pressure of the coal-duties, would at length see the necessity of compelling the right hon. gentleman to give up his darling scheme of a sinking fu nd. The petition was then brought Up. On the question that it be laid on the table, u Lord MILTON took the opportunity of complaining of the policy whiichi Government had pursued upon thais question. They had given up a revenue amauinting to 800,0001. annually, and in so doing had benefited a Particular class of the community residing withiin cer- tain limiited geographical boundaries. Now, when Government re- mitted taxation, they should take care that the relief which, they grantedl shouldi be of a general, and not of a partial description. Sir JOHN NEWPTORT could not agree with the noble lord who had spoken last. Hlis noble friend seemted to have forgotten that the particular class of the comniunity to which he had alluded had, for nearly, a century past, been aggrieved by the unjust anid par- tial operation of the coal duties ; and surely his noble friend would not argue that it was not entitled to relief, becauise it had submitred patient.ly for many years to tke grievance which had been imposed uponit.He cntededthattheChacellor of the Exchequer was onl peforingan ct f jstie i eqalizing the operation of the Mr. M BERLYthougt tha thecouxntry gentlemen were not dealng airl wih te Chnceler f te Echeqer ponthis occa- sion Itwasrater ncosistnt n tosewhohadsupp~orted the system of a sanking fund, now to come fowrdade thie adviser of it that they wouldl not bear the taxes hy which that sinking futnd was to be supported. It was consistent enoughi in his lionourable friend the member for Aberdeen to press for a repeal of taxes, be- cause he had always oprosed the scheme of' a sinking fund; but as for the honourable gentlemen who now called for a repeal of ta,ces, after supporting the sinking fund, whiere, he would ask, was their consistency? The CHIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER satid, that he should have no objection to let the resolutions regarding tie coal du- ties he re-comoiitted, in order to giv-e the hon. baronet an opportu- nity of stating hiis views regarding thecm. Trhere were: no bills to be considered on Thursday next, r%nd if the hon. baronet would that evening mnove that the house do resolve itself into a committee oni the coal duties on Thiursday next, lie would not offer the slightest opposition to the motion. Mir. Alderman WlOOD said a few words in favour of the Chian- cellor of thec Excheqerspln Sir Al. AV. RIDLYhdn beto to entering upon the dis-- cussion of this subjc nTusa et He only desired it to be distinctly understo, thttog, o h ake of rcratinig a debate. lie miight hiave to oeteipsto of a larger duty on inland coal it was not hisws,nrrsto h coal-owners of the north, to have' such dutyplcdoinadols They only wishied to hlave their own coal afhmitted to the ysarket on equal terms. After a slhort discussion, betwecan the SPEAtERn, the CJHALbCPL- LOR. of the ExcHrEquER-, anld SirAM. NV. RtDr.xY, as to the fornsi of bringinig forward the subject on Thursday next, the petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be PTinted. ABOLITION OF SLjAVERY. Petitions were presented praying for thie gradual abolition of sla- very- in our W1est India colonies,by Lord NV. BENITrICKc from the tow~n of Worksop, and also from the town of --, in the county of Nottingham ; by Air. Alderman HETGArxE fromi the town ofCHCIerIESTER ; by Mr. Al AIEIERLY from theC borouigh of Abinglon ; and by Air. S. WORTLEY from the towvn of Sedbergh, itt Yorkshire.-.Ordered to be printed. Mr. MABERLY presented a petition from the borouigh ofAbing- don, praying for a repe-al of the assessed taxes..-.Orderech to be prin ted. Mlr. AMABERLY presented a petition fromn thle trustees of the county of Tipperary, against the reduction of the bounities on Irish linien. MAl. S. RICE presented a siminlar petition fromi the inhabitants of Doneratle (we believe in the county of Cork.) Sir R1. FERGUSSON trusted that tile Chiancellor of the Ex- chequer would persist in the p lan wltich lie hiad announced. r.C. HUTCHINSON spoke in favour of the c-ontinuance of the bounties. Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that the spreading of the linen trade in Limerick and Cork ought to be looked at as mainly conitri- buting to the suppression of disturbances in those counties. The lisuse ought to recollect that thez had to deal with a country much imoerished alad distressed, an, he was sorry to say, for a consi- deabe timne in a state of insubordination to the law's. in his opi- nion, the best way so make the people hiappy was to give themn the means of employment. They wanted detnind for t e prodluce of their labour; and if that were given to them, they would become quit ad cntetedin hos ditritswliere insubordination now previle.-Lid n te tale,andordredto be printed. Mr.S. iCEpreened peltin fomthe inhabitats of Ross. Carerr, aaint te rducionof he uties oat linen.-Laid on this Mir. CURTEIS presentedt a petition from CIie licensed victuallers of Brighton, against the excise licences.-Laid on the table. Lord BELGRAVE pre-sented a petition from Chester, against the intended new sorvey of the hiouse and window tax.-Laid on the table. Alr. KENNEDY moved for an account of the number of gallons of spirits on which duty had been paid, distilled in England, Scotland, and Ireland, fromn the 5th of October, 1821, to the 5th of .~Iach, 822-nd fom te 5t of ctober, 11122. to the 5th of Marc, 123 thequatit of pirts eize bythepreventive guad, urig te amepero;andth toal xpeseof prosecutionsi insttutd i coseqenc ofspiitsseied y te uevetive establish- COLDTES. Sir AL. IV. RIDLEY gave notice, that he wotuld on Thiursday next more that the house resolve itself into a commtittee of time whole houtse, to consider of the duty on coals. LEATH ER-DUTY. Mr. CALCRAFT gave notice, that he would on the 18thi of Alay move for the entire repeal of the daty on leather. BURIALS IN IRk:LAN,D. Mir. PLUNKETT rose to miove tIme order of the day for the second reading of "1the burials in Irelanid bill."' The right hon. gentleinan observed, that he would not have brouglht it torward at that moment, if he hiad not had somie reason to flatter himiself, f'rom the general opinion which hie had collected fromn all sides of time hiouse on the measure, that there was ino likelihood of any nsaterial objection being offered to it, nor of any discussion arising that would be at all calculated to produce a? protracted debate. Thec house was already aware of'tlie general scope and object of the bill. It related to the burials, in Ireland, of persons diss-enting fromi the doctrines and disciplineof'theEstablishiedChu rch,with thoscformss anal cereniionies which wvere peculiar to the religion professed by thetiis. Every onermustfeel that tisis was asubject of extreme imipottance, as it related to the moral feelings, passions, and prejudices, of the grcat bulk of the population of' Ireland ; arid they mirust also perceive, that it was a question ofthtle greatest delicricy, because, as it referredt to circumstances which must occur its the pirecincts of Protestant church-yards, it would naturally excite the attention of those who felt an interest in the Protestant establishiment. He therefore ap. roachoeld the subject withi a considerable degree of' caution, woul not say of alarm, becauise the ieasure had been so umaturely considered, and so nicely prepared, withi reference to both sides of the question, that while it would make the law easy as to the burial of dissenters, it would not create any just alarm in tire minds of those who were connacted with the Established Church. (Hear.) When lie stated that it was a subject of great difficulty and delicacy, he begged to observe. that it was not on that account that he had taken it out of the handfs in whiichi it had been previously placed. Wlhether he coiasidered the question with a view to its inm- portance, its difficulty, or its delicacy, he knew of no hands better suited te brin it forward effectually thans those of his right hon. fred(Sir.5 Newport.) The course whiich his righit hon. friend took in the debate relative to education in Ire- land, which occurredl a few evenings since--the tone of temper and moderation withi whichl he introduced that sub- ject, proved very clearly that no man was more fit to concdliate the opinions and sooth the passions of all parties. (Hear.) Still, hiow- rever, he thought it would be felt that it was better tliis question slsould be taken up by one who spoke the opinions of' the Giovern- ment of the country, rather thian by any, individual uinconnected with the Government. MAn:y reasons could be adduced in support of this position. Itwas right, mn the firs4~lace, that the public sliould know the anxious solicitude which the Government entertained with respect to the welfare of the people of Irelandl; and next, it was impor- tant that the question shoutld be now brought forward in such a manner as to reconcile all classes to it. This end could be mocha better attained by the Government, than if the mieasure were introduced by any individual, however respectable. Having saidI so.nuch to excuse the Government of the country for entertaining this measure, it would perhaps be expected that he should state some reason for its not haviug been taken u sooner. Many cir- cumstances existed in Iceland, which would hoave made it uniwise Iin Gonvernment to have intrfered with a --etln of this kind at an earlier period. Whatever inconveniencies existed in the actual state of the law, (and he admitted those inconveniencies were immany 4nd considerable), yet still it was found that very few of them were of a practical nature. Government tbterefbre did not think it neces- sary to legislate on theoretical principles, so long as tele existing law appeared to work well. Bat a new state of things haR sprung up, and it was now found expedient to make some change in the Law. The first thinz it was proposed to do was, to repeal the act of the 9th William 1f. cap. 7. He believed rwithi respect to this point, there was an universal consent, on the part of every person con- cerned. He would now state what the object of the act of William was. It was probably known to most gentlemen in that house, that there were in Ireland a number of abbeys and convents, the sites of places formerly used for religious worship, and vested in eccle- siastical persons: those places were looked on with considerable respect, if not reverence, by all classes of people in Ireland. They had been founded from motives of piety, and though soinetimes teranted by superstition and bigotrv, yet it could not be denied that they were often the abodes of religion and charity. From them, in former times, the blessaings of hospitality had been dis- seminated amongst the poor and needy. Those places had long since been taken out of the possession of the ecclesiastical pro- prietora,and vested int the several members of the state. But they were still viewed by the people with feelings of respect and veneratipn. Though no longer u;sed as laces of religious worship they were much resorted to as places of burial, not merely for the ioman Ca- tholics Of the country, but very frequently for the Protestantsi; and he felt that the remasLins of those ancient edifices were not the least interesting objects of contemplation to those persons who visited Ireland. Looking to the disturbances, religious andl political, by which that country was torn, it was a point on which the mind re- posed witb some degreeofpleasure,whenit refleted that in those ceme. telies the~Pctstntahtrd the Catisole, petsortg of alml Tab ud sezsua 5iofls,wereburicain common. However they mighthavedilfraredinilife, 'in death they were suifered to rePose together :and thec pOae of their interment was not made a scene for the display of acrinionious feel- tng and unseemly asperity. This stale of things had prevailed, he believed, more or less, ever gince the Reformato.I utse exItrrdnaaryp tat, under these circumstances,teacofhe9hf ilimwa passed, by which burials in those places were forbid- den as well to Protestants as to Catholics. It seemed extraordinary, when the oractice was carried on without offeince to any party that it sliould have been interfered witi lby this law. He" believed it was not with a view to any direct interference with the rights of sepulture of any religious sect thiat the law was enacted, but that it was framed in a spirit of jealousy, which could not bcar that any religious feeling should be kept alive with respect to those old places of worship. Certainly, whatever might hiave been the object of the act, its provisions were opposed to those aff'ections a-nd decen- cies, with reference to the deceased, which ought always to be re- -spected. The act was framed, but it fell still-born, as all mneasures must do when opposed to the feelings anid sentiments of a c-ountry. in no one instance, for a series of y'ears? had the custom w-ich had so lon~ prevailed been interfered with-in no one instance had this obnoxious law been carried into effect. If, then, there was an act on their statute-book, to enforce which would be con- sidiered a crime, anid to infringe it would be looked on as a duty, it ought not to be suffered to remain (hear); and ore M~eet of the nmeasure now before the house was to repeal this act. (er.) The house would, however, observe, that there was a clause regulating and narrowing that repeal. Tfhe reason of this; was;, that many of those places were diverted from their original pur- pose, and were possessed by individuals; and care should be takcen that no interference with private property was admitted under this measure, which would be the case if persons who were not in the habit of usinig particular places of this description for bury- ing grounds were suffered to do so now. He would now, as shortly as he could, aDply himself to the more import- ant provisions of t Is Ill so far as it professed to give the right of burial in Protestant cliurchyards, according to the reli- gious ceremonies of the parties whouse friends were broughit there f'or interment. The noble lord who presided over the Governmnent of I reland, and who had applied himsel2f to thiis, as well as to every other subject connected withi the intere-sts of' that country felt the deepast anxietty for the success of thisi measure; and he (M1r. Plun- kett) knew of nio other reason why he now adtdressed the h.ouse ext rpt thiast from hiis consta.it intercour-se with the noble lurd he liad the best means of learning his views on the subje-ct. This mneasure originated with. the nioble lord, and hadl re- celved the unanimous sanction of his Mlajesty's Govern. ment. The twvo grcat objects of thie bill were these-to secure to dissenters of every denomination the righit of intermient ac- cording to their own forms and ceremonies, and to take care, at the same time. that nothing was done otffensive to the dignity or sub- versive of tile security of the Protestanit reli on. Before hie pro- ceeded furthier, it was necessary that he shoulfoddescribe what was tire actual state of the lawv on this subject as, it now existed. In the first place, hie wouild endeavour to put the house in possession of what was the situation of the Protestant parson as to the right of burial. Gentlemnen, doubtless, knew that the free- hold of the chiurchyvard was vested in the rector. The churclhyard was hiis' freehold, andI no person could enter it, unless by Iiis leave, withiout commnitting a trespass. But,' besides the right tvhich belonged to hiim as the possessor of the soil, he wvas, as the parson, empowered by law to superintend the mode of' grunting ChristiaLn burial in the church-yard. He was to grant she right ofrintermient; and, by the Act of Uniiformiity, he was to read thie burial service of the Cfiurch of Ireland, by law established, and no other. He could not, hiimself, read any other service; neither could he depute any person to read a different service in the church- yard. lie could emnploy another gentleman in orders to readthe ser- vice of the ChUrCh ot Irelanid; but he could not ailowv any laymian, of a mnemiber of any, other coninisinity, to read it. If this law were acted on, antd the Protestant clergy, were in eviry instance to insist on reading this service, andl going through the rites and ceremio- niies prescribed by the Chiurch of Irelaind. it 'would virtuially, deprive the great body of the people of the right 'of interment. Considering what thei tigiouis opinions were, such . rciewudaeutt actual exclusion. He did not mean to argue whether their f'eeling on this subject wras a righit one or not: it was his duty merely to state the fact. The opinions, fecelings, anti prejudices, of thec people of Ireland were such, that if thie principle were insisted on, it would actually amount to an exclusion froLn thie right of interment of all the Catholics at least, if not of al the dissenters. This was the situation of the law, on one side, now let the hiouse miark what it was on the othier. Every peson hiad a righit to interinent in the Protestant churchyard ofth parishi whiere lie died. His relaitives had a right to claimi it : but they were entitled to claim it, subject to that right of' the Protestant parson whicli lie hind juxst mention. d. But, sup pose he perf'ormedl the rites ot the P'rotestant churcli, or that he waved their perfoniiance, there was no law which2 in either case, prohbitd th peformnceof dsseting rites in a Protestant' churcyard.Therewas n law herethe Protestaxt parson had dishared isfuntios, r avr thm,to prevent Roman Catholic cereonie fro beig peformd inthe clhurchlyard, however ostetatousy clebate, o hoeve cacultedto roduice feelings of ainin he in oftheProesantclegymn.There were a numbier of laws passed in Ireland, afe teRfration, on the subject of the Catholic priests. By tlaose laws, besidies inflicting penalties on priests coming from abaroad,teewr others whicts also imposed penalties on all priests wowr o registered in a regular mnanner. By the 21st and 22doftelt ig t.ie greater part of these penialties wyere rensoved, udrcrinesicdions and condlitionis. Onieofthens was, that thiebenefit of those actsshiould not extend to any Catholic priest who officiated in a Prot,estant church- yard. It was; supposed, that under this clause it was a crimiinal or pensl act for a priest to perf'orns the burial service in a Protestanit chiurchiyard; but time supposition was entirely erroneous it had no other eff"ect than saying, that thie Catholic priest who per. foirned the service in a Prote'stant churchyard, shiould not have the benefit of that particular law. He was liable to be indicted, not for havinig perfornied the service, but for not having dulyvregistered him. self under the former act, wvhich he was not- requre to do, provided he obeyeI the restrictions enumerated in the 21st anid 22d of' Geo. III. rut whiatever miight have been the state of thie law on this subject, growing out of' the 21st and 22d of tao'. ItI., All difficulty was removed, in Ireland, by ttie law of 17914. By that lawv, it was not an illegal act for the Catholic priest to officiate. He could not be itidicted for it-he coulmt not be prevented fromn doing it. If the contrary wvere admiitted-if thie Protestant clergy. nman h'ad a right to insist on) performning the secrvice of the Church of freland-it would totally exclude the whiole body of' Romani Catho- lics from internient. If the Protestant clergymnan chose to come in and perfornm his service, or if he waved his right to officiate, there % as no law to prevent the Catholic priest front exercisinig his func- tions. This was the state of the law ; and, considlerinig the [situation of the parties. it was fraught wvith all the serds and elements of discord and dissension. (Hear, hear.) But thoughi stichi was the fact, thoughi the state of the law was calculated to prodlue conflictions and collisions between those opposing parties, it was pleasing to state. that, wvith very fewadreecetos thiose elemients of disLord and dissenision hadotreed nyf those effects whichk might ha-ve beeti expectedfo im n would, inileed, almnost praise this state of the law, since it gave an oppiortunity to people of all sects, and of all religious opinions, to display feelinigs thec most liberal and charitable. He must say, anid lie saidl it wvith great retspect for the parochiial clergy, that, until of late yeats, they had not, in the smsllest degree, interfered withl the right of intermuetit in Protestant chiurchyards. They hlad forborne to exercise a dluty which wag imposed on them by the common law of the country, and by the Act of Uniformity, because thiey felt that it would crea te uneasiness and dissatisfacti'on. The Catholic clergy. mien also conductedI themselves in a moat exemplary mianner. He believed the Catholic body in geneial were buried without any ceremoniy; but it was customary, on the interment of Catholics of th,e better orders, to have, more or less, a sort of service performed by the priest. &onietimes he appeared in. the stole, a sort of black robe, and soinetitiies he olliiaated in his plain clothies, but he ntever presminmed to offer any thing offlensive to the Protestant chiurch. This was the way in which the niatter remained, i:ntil lately, without any degree of off'ence being taken by the Protestant clergy. This should be particularly statd, becauise it proved that thiere was not thiat unmneal tex ture in tire sentimncits of thiose who held different reliiuoiins in Ireland, th)at ought to shutout allhIoPeof accom sdtin n tatoughkt to lead themi to believe thlat it was impossible to smooth dowii those religious feelings, thte asperity of whlich had been the bane and curse of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Wlhen matters remained tlius-wlien, on die one hantd, there wvas no interference, and on the other, no offence, he thought it would have beets unwise if Government had legislated for prospective eytls that perliaVs mighit never hiave arisen. But about four or five years back, thie pdfi formance of religious ecrens onies by a, Catholic priest, in a Protestant chiurchvard, was resisted. At the tinre this took ~place, 4uch occurrences were cexremely unfrequent ; and Go- vermen thugh itbeter o gt rd of themi by giving con- cilatoy avic,rahertliss y eertngthe strong hiand of nuttiority, or y cllng n Prlamet t rke hebusiness up. In the course of lst ear thecomlaits n ths sbjet wre greatly increased. Whehertherigt ws mre reqcisly laisedby the Catholic clegy,r cntnde fo i a iffren dgre ormaner from what had bencustomAary, he coul not say; bu a ood deal of alarm had cer- tany been excited. Vnethter that alar a just or not, he could not discover, and he believed it would evr difficult to ascertain the fact. If one person were asked wh,ether the ceremiony was the same as was heretofore perfonnied, the answer was in the af- firmative; but the next individual of whomn inquiry was miade would state cxactly the severse. In feet, inidividuals s'eemed to be guided rather by their prejudices, than by anyv desire to elicit the truth. H e therefore thoughlt it would be niuchi better to leave the circumstances out of which tins alarmi had arisen in the amibiguity in wich hey ere lace at reset,than to attempt to explore them (Her, har.)Whatver ad ben done by tke Protestanit clegy,was hefel covined,peroried in the discharge of a conscentios dut. He aid mostread and willing liomiuge to the orbarace aniestd b tie geatbod'y of the parochial clergy of Ielad; nd h wa cetain whrevr 'they had recourse to re- sistanice, they were impelled by a ses f duty -alone. Thie (Iversi- ment, as he had arayosre,wr anxious to 9ssoth all diiffer- ecires, by friendlyadcniitr advice; but it at length be- caine nemesst? to emiewathreal state of the law was on thist subject. If tne law were clear and plain-if its operation appeared calculated to produce peace and union-then it was right that the people sheuld know it : buit the case was greatly altered wher the law carried withil itself the elements of hostility. wheni ttie con- cord which had so long prevailed arose, not fromn a knowledge of the state of tie law, but fro,n an ignoraxce of it. It would have been productive of the most unpleasant consequences, if it had been bold- ly stated, " Youi, the priest, have a right to burv this man-you may enter the churchyard with bell, book, and candle, and perform the service in the most offensive manner possible." If the priest had the power to exclaim to the Protestant clergynian, " I an doing this by the authority of the Governmnent, who have told me what the law is on the subject," it would be the cause of constant feuds. 'his er- nicious knowvledge of their rights mulst end in continual conflicts between the liarties; and there fore it wvas necessary that the law should not remain in its present situation. Hieretofore, |the lair had not been insisted on-the proceedings of the Catholic clergy had been little interfered With. Had it been other- wise, the Catholics of Ireland would be driven from the tonibs of their ancestors. (Hear, hear.) It was not a claiimi of ambition which they put forward-it wims not a political privilege which they demanded. What they contended for was the off'spring-of those feelings of devotion and piety, which were inherent in the nature of man, which were wholly independent of adventitious circuisii stances. There was no clime so barbarous, no igniorarce so pro- tound, nophilosophy so arrogant, as to deny the just:ee of that feeling which wasimplantedin thenature of man, and which induced him to look with affectionate regret to the spot where the remains of Ihis an- cestry were deposited. It was not thie creature of philosophy: it was the Yoice of that Being, who, wheni he has doomed us to the grave, inspires our hearts with the confident hope that our affections and feelings will exist beyond that goal. (Hear.) If, howeyer, the Ro- man 6athoric priest were openly told that he might perform his ce- remonies in the most ostentatious manner, such a proceeding would gkVe Alsz3, ahid not suijatidally, to t'he Protestant. It WAS there.. fare neceasry that some alteration should 'be-uade iwttlsh Ilswr ' ni1 the question was,whichwes thebestm'nodeof deaiingwjtb thesubjcC5 There were three mods, the hon. and learnedjentlesna,,icojtiield- in which the existing law rmight be altered. rFlirst, it would be pos-' sible to give separate burial-grounds to the Roman Catholicg anid &h Protetatads; and this idea had, in fact, occurred to some Catholmds of influence; but he thought, for his own part, and he was con- vinced the house would go along with him in the feeing, tha of all remedies for the present evil, no other so objectionabi coul 2he found. The allotmnent of separate burial-places would not only, like the givinig asepaate places of education, tend to streng~0thea line of dentarcatioti talready subsisting between the two reli- gzions, sand to peeclude for ever all hope of that union in hieart and political opinion which every sincere lover Of Ire- land must bope f1r, whatever he might think as to its im-. mediate probability, but it wouild go to outrage the very com-. monest and yet msnot sacred feclinqs of humanity. Is would have the effect, the house would see, in many cases, of selsaraitti. families as to their place of buriaL. A. husband could not be buriea rith his wife-.a brother near his brotsher..a father by the side of his son ; it would hardly be necessary to say more upon the iXmpracslc.. bility of introducing such an arrangement. The next proposition, then, he would supppoee to be this-to make the right o'f case of interment to the dissenter in Irelandi an absolute right-to have it a stern and unbending mandate upon the Protestant parson to admit him to burial, and then to restrict the exercise of this absolute right, so as to prevent its heij,7 used in a manner ofFensive to the feelings of the Protestant. Thi. plan, certainly did not carry, upon the I'c of it, so mnuch positive unfitness as the forrmer; but still the bouse would hardlv find it to, be a wise one, even if it was practicable, which he dou-bted:. for the great difficulty in the way of such a regulation woslld be, not the unIllingn ofte Protestant parson to give up the absolute right, busis isailiytdoso. By theActofIJniformity,,andthemno0I lawofthecontr, ie asbousdtoperform the ritehimself, and could not akeoverabslut powr t anthier to do it. This,however,war as. the aw ow sood thenewactauthiorized the parson to give the desied prmision;but if it was said. that the. spirit andi tne terms of he ct ugh sobe-not he stuzy give permission, but-he thoU71 giveperissin, e (M. Puuker) enie the fitness of that course, becase te hose wuld e awre,that, even for the audniission olf a Proestant tbuilthewanothiing upon the parson mnanda. tory. The Protestant hmself could not he buried without pertmis. sion from the parson. Treih asnmight not withihold hiis permnissiorn, unless uo oestsatr reason ; but even if htc did withhold it wronflyhecudotb indicted, or miade liable to a civil action forsdon;h could only be censured in the Spi_. ritual Court. Cai mihth put hwver, in aL moment, in whichi the parson wsette to refuse. He was not bound to. bury a person wode excommunicated ; or one who hadl never been baptized; or one who had commnitted isuicide. In fact, he was generally to judge of the time, the convenience, and the fitness of the thtug being done; andifrhbeassent wasnot compulsory in the case of a Protestant, there were additional reasons in shun. dance whv it should not be so in the case of a Roman Catholic. When a dissenting clergyman applied to a Protestant clergyman for termission to bury, the Protestant clergyman was bound to judge, rst whether st were one of the- applicant's flock. Hie mutst ascer- taiti whether the deceased was really a Roman Catholic or not; he-. cause there hafl bcen case, and not verY uncommonlY, in whitih tliat pointlitad been disputed. T'here were othercitrcumnstances to becon- sidered. 'Who was the applicant, for instance ? Was he, as lite Professed himself, a Protestant clergyman? He uaiight be some mad fianatic jumnper, whio had no right to mak-e any such applics-a tion. All these were matters of whicl the Pro~testatclet,,-ivtnanhad to judg:e; and, if anabsolute mandateuwas tobegiven, t4ey~wouldI all be bpecial matters to be provided for. Further specist)u,...~eUld hiave to be considered-the mode and rnanner of pcrfbrmbiqt9~cere- mony, the tapers, and other circumstances of ostentation in thie Ca- tliolic, whlich went "ceyond the modestyv of the Protestant church. But slt prsn blae arrangements which could hardly fail to satsfyallparie; for, as its avowed intention was to gire the dis- senter the benefit of intermenit according to the rites of his o%at church, in aPratestant cliurchyard, the Protestant clergYman could no longer allege the difference of religion as a reason for wvithlitold.. ing the permission to bury. He repiiated, that the present act was, one for which the Catholics of Irelanid ought to feel most grateful; for it was in fact a charter of toleration, a direct declaration that every person in Ireland, of wrhatever religious belief, was entitled to thec ease of intermecnt accoding to the rites of his ownt persuasion. The law, asrgarded its efrects, was Put into the- strongest practical shape.TePoetn lrya a to be applied to. If lie thiought fit to refuse permission, he was hound to state in writing to the applicant, and immediately, the cause of' hiis refusal; and mnoreover, forLhwith to certify, the same camuse to, his ordlisary-, or the bishop of his diocess, who forwarded it again, without delay, to the Lord Lieutenant, or chief government af' the country. Titus there could beno reason to apprehend refusal onthie existing ready ground-.-that of the diffierence of religion in ithe party making application; and stiUl less would there be any danre,- of a light or frivolous objection, because it would be known that that obj:ction was at once.to gobefore authority-. And farther, with regard to the extent of the act, it was v-irtually mandatory, thiough not man- datory in terms ; for he stated it as x principle o'f law, and if he was wrong lie ulighit be contradicted., that where a'public futnCtiOnarv' was. legally etabled to do certaitn acts which were for the goodi of the commnunity, the law wliich inade it laswful for himn to do those acts, in fact made it his duty to do them. So that, on the onie hand], the acet was atandatory, for the dlergymian stood bound (in such a case) to do that which it was lawvful tor hint to do ; and, on the other handl, it would he observed, that in the provision for the service to be performed, there was no permission for the buriatl service generally, but specially for the service of the grave-an important potnt, b;ecause, in thie Roman liturgy, the "1 service of the grav-e" wvas not the " burial service ;- the " buriaL service" involving the mustatpompous display of the Sites of the Catholic religion; and tha " service of the grave" being merely a short prayer and psalmn, at- tended with no parade of ceremony whatever. Still the law, no doubt, as it would stand, might by possibility be abused. HIe did not de- ny tat t miht.It ws pssibe, n te one hiand, that a Protes- tant clrgymanmight, n defince ofconsequiences, capriciously withold is ermision an, onthe the han, thre ight cases arie, n wichthepriilee raned igh betakn gos advantage of. ~ut t wa no, inhis iew,thespirt ofratisallegislation, to mke awsto eetextemeandbarly ossblecases. B e rathr pefered,in all arrangemients to leave such cases to he deal wit as heyarose; and he ha no fear, iupon the present quesin u htte laiw would wor perfectly well. Wlith regard to thie Protestant Establishment, he was net surprised that they shouldi feel some alarm as to the new law at first. It was certainly, up to a certain pointt, the introduction of' a new right and pwF it was giving the Catholic church a right in the churchyardowfetrhe Prote-stunt chiurch; but a great dea of this objection vanished when gentlemien considered, that the law in fact only took away atI right which the Protestant clergyiiian had never exercised. If it was said that the Protestant paisbon had only abstainedl froiii using his right, because the ceremony performed 'hail been performied in the private honics of the Catholic, and not openly, as it would be now, in tie Protestant churchyard-this might be said, and the case stUi would be exactly, where it was before : for the very avowal conceded a principle just as strong as ilata lie now contended for. The cereiilony wvas performed in the private house? Tme ; but the Protestanit clergyman knew that it was perfornied there. Hie not only knew it, but lie mnust, of nrces. sity be taken (by his owvn act) to be cognizant of it; because ho coufd never be suppoe-d to be permitting hod ies to be interred with- out any ceremony of Chrisitian burial. WVe could not bera that the Protestant parsoni had bean permitting human bodies to be thrown into the ground like so many dogs; he c-ould only stand justified its liis forbearing to perforni the rites oth Christian burial according to Ids own religion, by the ktiowledge that those rites, according to another form, had been performed already; so that, in fact, lie ac- knowledged that the per?ormance of' certain rites according to the manner of the Catholic faith, gave a body- that title to coi.e into his Protestant church-yardl, which, without those rites, it could not have had. The act before the bouse went, in principle, no tarther~ than this.-.there wa nothing new in the effect of what it did, the novelty was only In the forns. No rational Protestant parson would complain of being permnitted by law to wave that right, which he had been all along accustomed to wave, w4ith the law azgainst hiim in so doing. And he (Mtr. Plunkett), in the confidence that his measure would satisfy all parties, should sit down by movi'ng that die bill shouldl be read a seroead time. Bill re2~&a second diane. M1ILTON'S MANUSCRIPT. ,---n the motion tha-t the hiouse shiould resolve itself intoactom- M1r. W. MI LIA MS begged to put a question to) the righit bonourable Hlome Stcretary, withi respiect to a MS. lately discover- ed, and said to be the undoubted work oF' Milton. He utiderstoeti that there was no question whatever as to the genuineniess o h work ; that it was in the hand-writing partly of Philldg, Alilton's nephew, and bore otherwise sufficient marks Of authenticity ; and ite wa desirous, therefore, of knowing how it liad been disposed of, and whether it was to be printed. Mlr. PEEL said, that the 11S. in question had been found amnong some state papers. It was a theological work, de Dei Cuitu, tretin ofthetrths of the Christian religicun and nit doubt, as far ase evdnecudg, uhni.Hwse MS. had come into the situation where it hiad been discovered, it was imnpossible to guess; bitt it had been submaitted to the Xing, who at once had said that it - was fititEshould be given to. the pulilic. Accordingly, it was placed in comnpetent buds, and would shoLtly be printed, under sthe auspices of his Majesty M1r. W. W LIMS merely mentioiied it as a subjec,t which had exgited very general cuiriosity. POSSESSIONS IN INDIA. Mr. HUMIE, alluding to a tieaty whic-h he understood to bave been entereid inLo with the Netherlands, by which England gave up some valuable islandsi in the Indian Archipelago, in return for soine territory, of whatever value, ceded to her on the continent of' India, requested to know when the particulars of that transaction were. likely to be laid before the hiouse ? Mlr. WYNNsaid that such a treaty had been entered into, bv whic Sinapor hadbpencede tothe nglisih. As we understodE thehon getlepa, h sad tat hepaprs n qestonwould nor be AIr.flU E sid,tha azerdig t reors Be cle hd been layourt 01tne itnividusis who had been so long our subjects tbere. Mr. WY1NN declined atpresent entering into particulars; but he believed that when the papers came to be laid before the house, the hon. gentleman would see that the subjects as to which he inquired had been attended to. The house then resolved itself inte a committee of supply. BRITISH MUSEUM. ?4,547 being asketl for the British Mluseum for the year 1824- Mr. BENNET rose to make a general coinplaintof the sate of the Museumn, and of the manner in which it was managed. He had read with much attention an article which some time since appeared in The Ediaburg,h Review upon the subject; and upon exattination ho found the statements contained in that article substantially true. It' he was not entirely mistakensoiend he had taken sonepains to iiiforn- himself-thewholedepartment ofnatura history in the IA3useunt was in the moss disCacetul state imaginable. The Herbarium was totally destroyed, he birds beasts and insects, were entirely gone. In short, the vaults ofth British Museumwere ik-ethe vault of a common church or chapel-they contained only the dead an buried, and there was no resurrection from them. The hon. gentle nian then proceeded to state particular instances in which the collec tion formerly held by the Mltuscum had become dilapidated. Th insects, which belongae to Sir Hlans Sloane's collection, bat dwindled fromx 5,000 to about 300. This was not the effects of time insects would last, preserved, formore than aO years. Again, it the department of anima:ls, a distinguished traveller some year since had presented his whole most valuable accumulation to th lUaseum: on going somne time after to look at the specimens, he ha been informcd that they were no longer in existence. The want room wvas no excuse to the tristseesforhaving allowee this destructlo of property to go on; theycould havc come to Parlisientfor fuAs -5d it WM3 their duty to bBl'e done so. The hon. member then cast- Vaima the manner in~ whnich the collection. of Sir Joseph Thrnki hlai been neglected by the Aluseum; and qutoted a statement from the ar- ticle to which he liad before alluded in the Edislbur.hl Review, fromr which, it appeared that some of the properties lett bv Sir Joseph Ba.&tiksto e Muitseum, had beeni given away by its offcers,'luinex- atmined, totbe College of Surgeons; that those properties hail been) exchanged by the miembers of the Cnlle.'c of Surgeonas, for certain ODther articles (which they wantedl) out of Bullock's- Iluseumn; and that, fisally, upon the breaking up of Bullock's Muiseum, the samne specimens, being destined to chatnge hands again, hadl beer Purchased by the trustees of the Britiish Museum, who had, in thle first instance, given them away,; and that, at an expense 'Of not less than :several hundred pounds. Nothing was more ne- ces-SrY, to prevent the recurrence of such mismanagement, than an Intrle changLe in the system of malcing trustees. lie bjectedl to mak- mng trustees eax-officio.-trustees of straw-trustees Merely for the s6ake of theic %aames. T he Lord Clhancellor -.vs a truistee, and had never been in the Museum, he (M1r. Bennet) understoodl, but once; stud then only because some matter of form com*pcled him to go. NoW suchi trustees were quite useless mieni of activity were wanted. It wa really disgraceful to the counitry, the state of our B~ritisli 2lsun,we compared with thne condition of similar institutions on the continent. The utter carelessness exhibited towards all pro- felties intrusted to its care, hiad the effct o1f benefitting private col.I lections,-here gentlemen knew theirspecimnens would be attended to,. and properlv Put before the public. He repeated,thatthe want of rooni Wa ntanamissible excuise. Mlore might have beendoewt the space, narrow as it was ; 'or some of" the properties m`ight have been Placed in the apartments occupied by the officeras of thie e~sta- blishment. At all events, if room was necessary, room ouglit at Oncae to be provided ; for it would be better iiot to attemnpt any national colUection at all, than to support such an institution as assuml ed the name of a museumo, without possessing any of the distinctive pro- perties of ope. Sir C. LONG wislhed that the hon. member for Shrewsbury had madle inquiry before lie gave credit to the Edintburglh Review ; lie w'ould then fiave found that man', of its statemnents were utterly de- void of foundation, and the re-t generally so exaggerated as to be quite undeserving of credit. As Sir Hanis Sloane had beeni dead 70 year, ad mch f hs clletiv ha ben accumulating for 50 yearts befoe, t ws nt srpriingt'et sme f the srtricles in it should have isapeared; bu evey speimenleftby Sir HJans Sloane (inot the dentcalinset) as i th Musum;aiid the total numbver of fur. BENET ased wher they ere ? Sir C LONtj said, that they wvere in the M7%useum, niot exposed to Public view, certainly. V'ery frw were exposed to public view, be- canse the light destroyed tieir colour. With respect to the class of iLliammalia, the honou'rable member for Shirewsbury was consider- abl. mnistaken.. The lion. mcmber put a certaiti collection at 2,000 specimens. Mr. BEN NET.-Eiehlteen hundIred, Sir C. LON'G. -Well, 1,800. The fact was, that it had consist- ed of 1,800 animals, or pzrts of animnali ; and the parts had been isa the Proportion of abh3-t i50 to one. The lion. bart. then ardverted to the collection beqiteathed to the Mluseum by the late Sir .Joseph Banks. I nidoubtedlylie looked to Sir J. Banks as the best,iudge and adviser wbom lie couldi consult upon the suibject of preserving lils (sir J. Banks's) zoological specimnens, and hail given his (Sir C. Long's) orders to the officer's of the 'Museum accordiur to the d!irections which lie received. To mieet the facts allegedl by the liononirable niember for Shrewsbury. together witns many .other staternients of the samie nature, which were to be found in that ar- ticle of the EdinzbuighelReview- fronm whence the hioti. gent. had derivedi thie areatest part of his statement, he read thec answers given to tlhose assertions, upon ain inquiiry whichi lie himself inztituted, by li_11r Henry, Ellis, a vecry valuable'officer of the liluseurns, and Mr.i .qullock, whose namne was also brouight into question; whiceh aiiswers' amnounted to positive dlenials of thie substantive part of the Edlin- bureh reviewer's chiarges against thie cstablishnuieiit. Ilie thiought thiat the honourable gentlemnan had been miost unnecessarily severe upon the Officers of thie fuuscurns; especiallY with respect to his charge "ot their gross neglect of' the zoolnicical departinent, anid thec plea'ent ac- count be gave of some of their misnomners of the animials. True facte was, that the labourers and servanits had, in one or two inst-aners. misplaced the labels, so that a hear hiad the label which was imiade for a tiger cat: buit this. was puire accident, and the honourable gentleman would be fully as nutuch justifiedi in interring ignorance against tiie officers. bsecause somei one wvith little dlelicacv or avati art. thoughi there wats an evidezti in tention to joke, hiad taken a label from a wil(i beast, ar~alihung it about tise neck of Sir Joseph Banks. To justify the trustees, lie statedi to thfe house, that there were four mieetings. of the officers called, and they were severally- required to give an account of -Ahat each in his dlepartnment had tione since thie last sittine. Trhere wrere then, sub-cotiimiiaees forimed of~ the triuste. s and officers, to examine the contents of those repiorts ;and la.stly, the trustees madle their annual visit in autumn, to whiomi thlese anti sub-committees reported, tacit for the departMent over which it hiad been appointed. He kneic or no real usefulness in thip institution ot public boarus, except thley WOUld adopt this plan of dividing the duties anriong themii aniti at Clue same timne lie was per- suaded that it liudl entirely savedl the trustees fromi descrying the cent- sures cast Oiltt ielse, of sonsle of whichi censuires he needh only say, that they emanated from tuec disappointmnent of a candtidate' for a sabae in Cite trust and management of' that institution, to) show how much credit thevideserved. Thie hon. gentlenman weished him to say something 1ipon Mr. Burchell's collection, thoughi the liotil. gentle- iman had left thlat topic nut of his own argcurrcnt. (The lion. baro- net then read a report of the coininitte otrustees oti M1r. Burcliell's collection of zoological specimlens frcomi South Africa, andl the direc- tions given by AI r. Burchtll for p reservinig thiem ; in wehich the coni- saittee. after'suitable thanks atid praises to the collector for liis gift, decide against niaking the preparations required by him in the pree- sent state of their rieins, both as to room anti( money, and confine the expense of preparations to the smaller anid rarer collections of Cap- tains Ross and Parry, anti that of rite Hudson's Bay, Company. tile whole charge beingr taken at 93S. II-,. l)Id., whereas thos direct'ed by, jlhr. hlurchell coul[d not be effected tinder 5001.) As to the generail question of the neglect of the zoological deptirtmneni, the hotn. gen- ticinan would not venture to, say, that if, three years ago. they hiad come down to ParliamenAt to ask for a consirierable sumi Of Miory7 to enclose and fit up a large space of gtound for the reception of zool6gy, thit they would have. had it as matter of course, the liberality shown by Parliamnent was niach ; but tile hon. gent. imust be quits- sure that he himself wvould llave been promnpt in oppositig such a Prisnosittornto say nothing of' the lionourable miemiber who wouild have put on One of his moast terrific econoinical aspects. arid Perhaps woul Ithave conitrived to get the support of somie dis- pleased ceuntry gentlerman. It was easy to talk of Fra-nce, Holland, atid other states' as exa-nples : the fact was, that altlsog we ex- pielled them from the extent of ettupire, anti th-e freqjuec of Comn- snercial iuliercosrse in the means of' collecting,teexledisn the facilities of space and building',. After at short allusion to ihe vorks going on for tiec reception of ithe munificent glift of a royal li- brary front time King, he concluded bv declaring,' that tile' iton. member hiad slitown ijo good grounds, fei liis attack, oni the Muliseium. Mir. ii. GUIRNEY t+adi sortie allusion to tile Egyptian fraguient.; sent lioniie by .ml r. Salt antI Belezousi. whiclh were not clearly hecard iii the gallerv.' .1ir. BANKES justifieti the contduct. chiaracter, and intelligence of the officers by whosin rthe public ivere so ably mcrveil in thec va- riouis departmTents of that Mtost imiportanrt institiution. .1r. GEORGE BANKES spoke to the hard treaturient whichi Salt and Btelzoni had sufferedt in the purchiase of' atid payment for the Ecvptiati antiques renriitiedl from Alexandria. Mlr' CROKER thioughit that the library- was 'pretty well managed, but lie coinIlained loudly of tlhe state of the cataloguie. Titevalue of a public library mlust depend in a grreat degree upon the ca- talogue, anti the chlief usefulness ,of it ivas to poor scholars, who certainlv could never affordi eighit or nine guinets, the prce at which the catalogue miust be new purchased. lie thouight that it would be a trost dlesirable point of' inquiry, icr th e trstes to ascertaiti if t'jere could not be a cheaper edition of the catalogue issuied for cthe use of' thle country at large. If the expense were too great to be repaid by Ithe sale of copies, no doitbe, but that Parliament wottild clieerf'ully gratit a smiall sumn in aid of it, perhaps to the amount of 1001. a-year. Ilie tliouglht that tIlt present buildlings were very weli a1dapted to thle purposeS of the library aiid the scientific collections; but lie objected to fixing the natiotnal gatllery- there. ~l'orks of art were especially calculated to civilize and humanize the public at large, and ought to be placedl, as it were, in the gang-way of' society, to be nor oitlv Opetn, but of ready anti inviting access to th public curiosity. B3ut Chiefly he insistedi on the neccasity of'reforming the catalogue of thle library. and Putting it out in a cheaper anti closer shaple. It mnatteredI hlttl for such a work how coarse thle pair or how poor the printing: thec general tiseulness of it weas alottcite consideration. Air. W. AlITII sproved of' the institution getierallv. and thought the objectiuons i tile catalogue niot very, ounil. Ti irr 'as for reference More than f,or stud~y, n oi coas as['he ibary othe>,- might look in the catalogue whcn poor wtou sc olars as w hella e,xpense :Ia catalogue,.hr,wtotgigt h Mvr. CROhsUY sai'd that was certaiiily true ; hut if the poor scholar could furnish himself with a euataloguie at a low rate, he would not have- to waste his valuable time by goinig to the M1useumn to dis- cover that the book wllich he sought was not to be found there. 11lr. BAN iES thought that none of the objections, either to thle institution or the management of it, were very well founcied. As to the inconvenience and difficulty of adniissioii, that coulil hiarthly be alleged, seeing that in the course of la,st Year it Was visited by 1 00,000 persons. AS tO the wa.st of room, it was; true that thiey litad nor enough for all the subj cts- which wFere ptresented. and they had been obliged to buiild for the reception oih the King' s ' library. [lot if gentlernen would only consider that these collections, a~fter the comrpletion of the new buildings, woitil( cover a space ratlier larger than Hanover-square, they wouldI scarcely persist in the objection1 w,ith seriousness. For the cataogue of'Erit library, he did nut know how it couild be better Txanaged thiati at presenit, becattse of the continiual accessions to the library, which of course required con- tinual enlargements of the catalogue-a circuisistance utterly at va- riance with the plan of a cheap cataltigue. 31ir. R. SMTl-I [H loped, that nothing which hadl passed in the discussiorn of thiis evenin woul have thie effect of precluding the trustees fromn appyn oPalaetfor any further suin wliici liglit be necessary forteupotfth Britishi IIuseuni. Sir C. LONGwsqiedpod to colicur ini tie hope expressred by his honourabl Ired ihrspect to what hatil been observed as to the sum pai toC.Sl o h sarcophagus, ise could only e.state, that 1Ir. BigtmRcad,te agent of' that gentleisian, muneration, and lie had replied in ithe affirmnative. The trustees who were disposirg of the public money irould hardly, therefore, as he (Sir C. Long) thought, have been justifiel-he was sure thev would not have escaped censure-if they had offeredI 5001., or any other sum beyond thlat which vwas expected bv Al r. Salt. He thought the public was much indebted to Mr. Salt, and he had no doubt. as well from the restult of hlis inquiries among persons who were acquainted with the value of such things, as from his own opinion, that the articles furnished by Mir. Salt were wvorth much more than he had been paid. He even believed tbsev had cost that gentlenian more. ,W7ith the elecdon of the trustees he had nothing to do, but as a body he felt himself obliged to say lie had never iriet witlh zny set of men more anxious to dtscharge their duty to the public. They consisted of a great variety of persons, and amiong thmeni were in- dividuals of the highest rank and talent in the country. When it was remembereth that there was every reason to expect the institution would be benefitted materially bythebounity ofsonie and the exertions of all of them, he thought he did not say too much when he asserted thlat it would be hardly possible to find any mets who could be more safely or advantageously placed in the stations they occupied. This he said in mere justice to gentlemeni whose services had lieen very useful to the public, and for which lie was sorry they had had but little credit. Mr. H. GURNE V said a few words, which were inaudible, and to which Sir C. LOCNG replied, that he wished by no means to be under- stood to say, that the trustees would not very willingly, under the authority of the house, revise their decision as to Alr. Salt's remu- neration.-The vote was then carrie. On the motion of ML. (OUxL.lay), a sum of 4,4781. was granted for the support of the society for discountenancing vice in lreland. On the motion that 22%000l., be granted for promoting the Sducg. cto o th porin Icelanid, 'Ar. UMrE said, tbAt althoughi the full discuission. which-the~ subject to which this vote related had undergont' on a former evenin,g zendleredl it unDnecessary to go into it at any lenkth, he could not refrain fromt- expressing a hope that something wvould be done speedily upon a matter of so much importance. He was aware that great difference of opinion prevailed on this subject, bust he was sure almost all personis agreed -that it was highly desir- able to edlucate the Cathiolic and Protestanit children in the same school. He doubted, however, the possibility of effecting the object, the great miass of the poor children beilng Catholie, unless the funds dlestined for the purpose should be placed, not exclu. sively under thie direction of Protestants, but that even the larger part shouldI be under the control of Catholics. This Opinioni was supported by the undeniable fact that a great number of Catholics refusedI to receive the benefits of education uipon the terms on whichi they were tendlered to them, and also by, statemeuts which he had received from various part of' Ireland. Ile had thle authiority of a Catholic bishop for stating, that in the 36 parishes of his diocess, there were 10,000 children, all of whomn were fit to go to schiool, but were not able to pay, and who were yet restrained frem- availing; themselves of the schools which were open, ott atccount of the Scriptures being read in them withiout note or comment. This stiplation had induced mane Persons to withdraw their children fromp. thle srhools supiported 13y the Kildlare-street society, and of those whio continued the greater part did so under the inifluencee of fear. The hon. gent. disclaimed any initention of meddling withi the sctbject of religion h e wished that the poor of Ireland shiouldl be taught only to read, and that they should then be left to the clergymen to be taught. the tenets of their respective persuasions. Hle did niot intend to oppose the present miotion, and hie coiicluded be expressing a hope, that in the next session the house wouldi be' in possession of such information on the sub- ject. as would enable it to rendler the advanitage of education in ire- land as genieral as it was necessary. r.- J.L.FORSTER rose, for the purpose of making a few obser- vations respecting the elffect whiich hiad been produiced in the educa- tion of the poor in Ireland by thec Kildare-strect Society. The ho- nouable gnlemani referredI to thle 14th report of that society, whbich, he sad xibait an in' eirestine comparison between the state of educa- tion befo re the establishmnent of that society and since it had been in operatioti. Notwitlistanding the numiber of schiools erhich existedl previously, such was their natuire, andI sunsl the mletl&<d in which they w'ere carried on, that so fa: from educatien being a blessing, i: was onec of the mnain sprinigs of all the evil that prevailed. The Irish peasant was not the victi.m of igniorance, but of misdirected eduication. Gte of the most pernicious practices was, the introdluction of hooks of a diangelrous tenidency into the schools. .llany liersons emrploved their capitals and their intdustry in dissemi- naigb0ookS PUrprPting to be the hiistories and adventures of' rebels, trios, and enterpris,ingnmalef'aciors- TIhe object of thel Kildare-street Society liad been to check this evil practice, and they had so far suc- ceededl, withi the niuntifient. as'istance of Parliamnent.7, that the same persons whio hiad formerly been employed in thtis trade, were now eng-aged in, furnishingz the same schools wvithi books of' a more Useful tenidencv. The Society, feelin that to providle pro- Per miasters for the various schools coninected withi themro was an- I ilier most important noint, had estahlished a model school ini Dub- lin, which. besidres thi~ local goodl which it did its educating 300 of the chiildreni of the artisans of Dublin, preseitted ani opportuniity for qualifvina persons initendinig to become masters, anti fo nhg themn acqiuaintetd withi the principles of the society. Ile nset cite statemnent whichi hiad been made dieit the Catholics did not benefit by theFre schools, by mierely saying, tliat of the number of imasters in lie schools beittiging to ithe secietir One half were Catholics, atild of ithc children, three-fourths were of tile sante persutasion. It zvas true Ithat the digiiitaries of that chutrclh objected to thie society, but hie (M1r. Fors%tcr) dlid hiot know on whiat -rounds; andi( he wished tchat thle COMMittee which ha.l been appointc~ tnight be inf'ormied of the rea- sons on whichi their objections; were fouindedi. It hind been saidI that ithe subscriptions raised] in Ireland fortlitesupport of rthe society were only 2001., buit intt fct thecy amounited to 10,0001. Its the vear 1812,tdie nttmber of gcriptural schiools in lreland amnounted to 238; att present thiey were 4,150. In thie courTse of she last year, 800 had tjeent added to thleir numiber ; anti lie was bappy to state titere was eyery prospect, if' the present grant should be a'reread to, of adding 1,000 niece in thie course of the prese.nt y-ear. Ile would only adtd, that in supportinig the Kildare-street Society, the liouse wouldi niost e(fectually aid the generatl education of .the poor in irelaitid. Any othier society tsinehltsend thecirinasters to theKiidare-streetschool,where thley wousld participtate in all its advantages, acud the books of that societ' were freely furnished toall theothtersocieties, howvever titeir principleys mih ii'r I he education of the femnale peasantry, seitiL h was kniown by all persons acquaintedI with the state of I'reland to be of the utmost itiportance, had lately occupied cthe earnest attentilon of the society, and the co-operation of sotnic benevolent ladies led thlemr to forti Ithe warimest hoepe of suocess. lie trusted the facts lie lied nientioned, anti which before iwhere not before suifilcietittly known to the htout4e anti tile public, would at least prove that the Kildlare- street Society was enEtited in the present occasion to that contfl. deuce it htad htithierto enjoyed ard lie did not doubt that the in. quiry about to lie mad byv the comminittee iwould Prove the utility of their lati,uttr. Sir J. NEWPO RT regrettedt that thssbect hiad been intro. dluced before tite committee appoitnted by the house hiaul miade their report. He hail abstained from expressitig his oipinlion until that repo; t shotild have furnishteth a ntore certain btasis tipoit wvhich a conclusionl miighit be forined. Seinie points of' the lison. gent.'s speeh imighit be disputed ;but in tite ilrescrnt state of the stibject, and as lie dtdI not mean to contravene t1he proposed grant, lie slioul(i also decline sayiiig any niore upon the subject than' that lie wished thlings to be left as thiey ieere. Ailr. C. HlUTCHIN~SON regrettedi, for causes as well known so the honourable gentleiman as to hiimself', that this sub- ject.'however ably treatedl. hiatd been touched upon at this time. He would go the whole length with the lion, member, of beliet ine that thie Kildare-street Society lhad done a great deal of goodi, antd 'had nieant to do still more. L'hie commnittee must not conceal irozii themselves that the object pursued on this occasion was the education of a Cath.olic popuilation. Any indisposition on the rt of thte Catholics to htave their chlildren edlucatced togethier with VIro.testan us he sliould exceeesirinel deprecate. At the same tilne, if tile objection was,o a conscientious one, lie really thiought that the joint education ofProtestants; an(i Catholics, or a scriptural edmiica- tion (as it htmd been termneti), oughit not to be niade a conidition of suchi a grant ttftli pitblic monoy/as that note, proposed. Azlr. J. II. NdRTII, inl a miaiden speeell of soi-ie lengthi, thecn aiddres~sed the cominmittee. The honoura6le gentleman oppiosite hail Obijected to the application of his liomiourable frietid, because lie hiad broughit forwartd, it wras said, soine mnatters Iliat might lead to a dis- cuission of a delicate niature, and such as was, theref'ore, to be avoitI(- eel. For his owni part, he (Mr. Northi) had no such apiprehensions; if' lie knew lils coun.tryment a_tall lie thioughit thecy wvould be anxious, whether thieir wishes were Ocniedh or acceded to, that thecy slhould lie sutbmtitted so a fair atilJ full diiseuss5ion. Let Parliament trUSt to their cantlour-chere was no miore candidl people ; to their intelli- gence-for tFirs', no class Of Hiis Majestv's subjects who pes- sessti larer i~e f ntura inellgence. The objections, of lioutotirable ~ however,extendled not mierely to the warii. nimaed,pet-ump angy tlsessioni to whiich the topics in questiu migt giverise; ut to heir cltit, dispassionate, ant I even, (if ie igh he lloed o us tie trm,anti certanlv in no olTehi- siveb se ), their cold examiination. Theb Irishi people, jiltmmough they were etited to lie considered as an inteligent, were also a suispici. ou1s1 peoptle atid they wouldi feel te miost uneasy dloubt as to the mnotives of suoll a siletice asthat whiceh it was pro- Posed to observe. (The hononrreble member then entered into a gelieral stateinent of the object, the proceedings, and the effects of the Kildare-street Society ; but our linsit's will not allow us to repor.t it.) Wlhen the society was first formed, the whlole country, wihI the single exception of' the Plovinre of Ulster. I(he behaEvedi lie was speaking advisedily), was involved it, the mcosi thic an tilpale arkessandignrance ; and the Piotestant clegvuidetoo th edcaton f te per,whose etducation thie Catl4li clegy ad oo lng eglctet. AtOng the roadiside, anti in lnesantihetges,as t wee, hereexitedindeed a few mi-,serable schols ;buttheyseee geeraly shoos of licentitiousnes, and vice, ari somitines fsditon Helie hnsslfseen, conimonly, among the hooks vhibids were pitt into the litdso thec youthi who resorteti to theni, "1 Tuie History of Mfoli Fladr "front twlich circum. stancee tile committee nsight infer how dfcie thec system' of educa- tion tlitlist be as to moral and religious intruction and " TIte Battle of Auehrim," a story in whichs the most seditious ptrinciples were Ienforectl by the fascination of poetry ; such was the atixiety to in-. culcate sentimnents of' loyalty that 'prevailed in the.se schools, which the lion, gent. oippostite was so disinclined co believe could m-erit the appellation of seditious. Thuis oni thec one side the most n'ischiievous activitv was emnployed to disseminate the tiiost dangerous opinions ottth otlier hand,' there teas the most toipied stalriation of iitiiid as to the attainti1ent or influence of krotwledge. IWlhat was thte effect of thit compound operation of the sys- Itein whichi thie Kildare-Street Society propased to remtove atid Ito repliace?e Every gentleman who had resided in Irelandi niust .know that time ra'nks Of hler thickening Stopulation were array- Ielt aLgatnst order *and good miorals, an sendilng forthi fiorn the abyss ofthieir nitsery, a voice of defiatice to ani alniost Oppressed gentry, atiud ani almost appalled Qtaevernmnent. The blioourable mnember, after ciilargimig or thie benefits of the Kildare-sgtreet Irsti- ttation.. and contrasting thieni with the obstacles that had at first op. pIOsed themselves so its progress, concludeth by expressing lils grati- itide to Goverunient for thie interest thee hiael nmanifestedl in behialf of Irish edlucation, and by apologizing to the house for the length at whlichl lie hiad felt it neces4ary on this occasion to adtdress them. (lie was wamcmlv dimeereul at die conclusion of his speechi.) Sir JOHfN NEWVPORT, in explanation, stated that he never inteittledi to cast any imnputation upon so respectable a body as the Kildare-street Societ)., teho liad certaiiily done much in the cauise of the edlucations of thle Irish poor.-The resolution w-as then agreed to. ?P27,000 was then proposed for the Foundling Hospital, Dublin. lIlr-. 1IIUMIE doubted WhEther there was any en(I really betievo- lent or humaiie answered bil titlse grant. Mr. GOULBLTIJ si thatfin a country -without poor laws, it was extremTely difficult to dislpense wvithi sonse such institutionl as tlhe 1oiie ill question for tie reception of chiildren, or the greatest nmisery Iwoultl, at tinses, arise. After a f'ew weords fromi SirJonyx NEWvPORT and Mlr. HmIaaE, the gratit was agreed to. On tle vote of l0.!001. in aid of schools elablizheid bv voluntary subscription being proposed, Mr.H[J ME wished to know to ehm m the grantwas given? Air. GOULBURN sald it was given to those persons who either gave a suiII of money, or funmished land on which schools might ne erected. Mr. JOHN SMITH wished to know tvhether any distinction was itmasle between the Catholics and Protestants. Ir. (;GOUI,BURN saiti the hoti. rentlemanis question involved tivo questions-one of fact, and one oi principle. As to tlie question of principle, no resteiction existed as against either Catholic or Pro. testant receiving the grant, though in fact the greater number of ap- plications svere made from thc Protestants. Mr. SPRING RICE said there was an evil in the obligation which existed, that the bishop of the diocess should be a partv to the lease; and in one case the bishop refused to becomne a panty to it, unless the itidividual agreed that the patronage of the school (the nontinating the master) should be in the Protestant itiaister of the p arisli. Sir JOHN NEWPORT stated another instance of the same nature, but in wlhich the Government took it upon themselves to vary from the rile. Ailr. GOULXBURN said, that by the act of the 50th George III. the bishop wvas required to be a party to the lease, but no inconvenience resulted from it, as the trustees were permitted to be named by the person who gave the ground, although, in the form of the lea.,e wvhich was foi narded to thein,tlle names of the minister and churchwardens were inserted. M'r. HUAIE said he was quite satisfied that the grant was not applied indiscriminatelv, as it was intended, to both Catholics and Protestants, but went rmerely to increase the patronage of the Pro- testant church. lie hoped an account of the application of the last year's grant would be laid on the table, which would show in what manner it was distributed. Mv1r. GOULBURN gaid, that for 22,0001, Which the public had psid, tberebhd been 24,0001 famished by voluntary subscriptions. wIr. C. GRANT supported the vote, .*he wassatisjle4 thb Go. vernment had been rnxious to apply the grant as'It was intended,in- ditcriminately, withiout regard tO religious differences. The grant was then agreea to. On the motioa of tr. BENs ET the CnRmktAw eeported pro- gress, and (the house being resumed) obtained leave to mit again. Mr. GOULB URN moved for le-ve to bring in a bill for declaring the stealing of records to be larceny. After a few words from 3iMr. HUorE and MIr. BUTTERWORTH, leave was given to bring in the bill. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adourned at a QUARTER PAST WTVELVE O'CLOCK. HO TSE OF C03I3IONS, MONDAY, MIARCH 29.