House Of Commons, Monday,...
The Times, 1824-05-11T00:00:00

Sir G. HILL, in moving the second reading ot tue bDl providing for the repairs of Derry Cathedral, expatiated at somc length on the propriety of the measure. Some years ago the bishop had caused a spire to be erected, but the work waas so badly peifornied, that it was obliged to be taken down, and the cathedral was at present without a spire. The roof was also in a very dilapidated state. If the bill were suffered to go to a committee up stairs, thc necessity wlhich existed for the measure would be clearly proved. Dr. LUSHINGTON opposed the bilL. It was quite clear that since the erection of the cathedral there must have been some spe- cific fund set apart for its repair, because it was impessible that it could have remained from that period up to the present time, with- out receiving repairs or sustentation of any k-ind. What, then, had become of that fund? 9Vhy should Parliament be called on to furnish the means of repairing the cathedral, when it was clearly the duty of the bishop or the dean and chapter to do so? He de- fied the right hon. bart. who brought this measure forward, to point out any instance in which Parliament had been requested to tax the people at large for the sustentation of a church. It seemed that the bishop had formerly built the spire. Now it was clear to him Trom this fact, that there was some regulation which beund him to do so; and the same regulation, he presumed, would upply to the repairs of the cathedral generally. He could not suppose that the building of the spire vras a mere voluntary act. He could not suffer the onats of repairing the cathedral to be transferrede from the dean and chapter, where it properly rested, to the shoul- ders of the people at large. For the last two years, it appeared, the service of the established church was performed in the Presbyterian mceting house, in Derry. (Hear.) Such was the neglect,the criminal neglect,of those underwhose superintendence thecathedral was plac&d, that it was suffered to faU into decay, and the service was actually performed in the Presbyterian meeting-house. He meant to say nothing harsh of the dean and chapter, or of the bishop, but it certainlv was their first duty to take care that the cathedral was kept in a proper state of repair. Nothing tended more to bring the clergy into disrepute than their overlooking the repairs of places of wor- ship It was quite unworthy of their character. (Hear.) The bishop was bound, if it were necessary, to compel measures to be taken for the repair of the cathedral. A letter, written by an ho. nourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Dawson),on this subject bad been published in the newspapers. That letter contained an opinion which srbould have satisfied the promoters of the bill that it was an inex- pedient measure, and ought to have induced them to abandon it. the sentiments expressed in that letter did credit to the feelings of the bonourable writer. The whole of the biU was most obnoxious. HIe ahould therefore move as an amendment " that it be read a second time this day six months ;" and on that proposition he would take the sense of the house, Aldermnan WOOD observed, that the Irish Society felt consider. able objections to particular parts of this measure. That society had been reproached for not advancing funds for the repairs of the cathedral, but they had no right to appropriate their funds to that purpose. A series of resolutions had been agreed to by the Mayor and C,orporation of Derry, and published in the Derry news. papers, wbich reflected, in the most abusive terms, on the Corporation of the city of London and the Irish Society. Those resolutions charged the corporation as holding cstates, -in perpetuity, to the amount of B,0001. or 10,0001. a-year, and then went on to ask how that money was laid out; and the an. awer was, in eating and drinking. (A laugh.) The fact, however, was different. The Irish Society received, in perpetuity, 2,3001. a year for property which was really worth 20,0001. a year at this moment. Almost the whole city of Ijondonderry, which belonged to the Corporation of London, had been disposed of by very irnpro. vident persons, at a rate greatly below its true value. For his own part, he really believed hlbt someofthem had received anIrish bribe. (A laugh.) One ofthem, he believed, on his return froen settlingthose bargains, found ib his house a considerable quantity of Irish linens. From the other leases, the Irish Society received 3,3001.- these two sunis of 2,3001. and 3,3001. were the total amount of their receipts, with the exception of the fishery. The right hon. baronet well knew the value of that fshery. It was let for 1,2001. a year; but he could prove, that individuals at the present moment were wilLng to give 6,0001. a year for it. The Irish Society had, out of this in- come of 6,0001. a year, built a school and rectory on the Coleraine estate. Mr. S. BOURNE could not agree to establish such a pre- cedent as would unquestionably be established if this bill were agreed to. (Hear hear.) It was the duty of the dean and chapter to repair tie church. That was the primar ob- ject for which their revenues were granted. He reco ected, when part of the cathedral of Hereford feU down, that it was repaired without any application being made to Parliament for assistance; and it was a well-known fact, that the dean and chap- ,er of Winchester were spending thousands annually on the re.. p4irs of the cathedral. (Hear, hear.) How was it proposed to darry on the repairs of the cathedral of Derry in future ? Why, The expense was to be thrown on the successors of the present dean and chapter. This, he thought, was not a very decorous mode of proceeding. In his opinion the dean and chapter were not entitled to touch a farthing of t eir revenues until the catbedral was repaired. (lear, hear.) If a prcedent of this kind were once eslebIished, it would be the means of inducing deans and chapters to neglect the repairs of those magnificent pise of architecture to which they sod so much attention at pTeseRt. slr. LITTLETON never gave a vote with greater pleasure than he should feel this evening in supporting the amendment of the jearned gentlemran. It was most disgraceful In those whose duty it was to repair the cathedral, to sufter it almost to fall, and then, wfith unblushing effrontery. to apply to Parliament for assistance. (Hear.) The people, it appeared, were to be taxed for the purpose of effectng those repairs; but the promoters of the bill hadintroduced a clause specially exempting the present dean from contributing any part of the eXPenSe. TShe right hen.. baronet had alluded to the ca- 1thedral of Lichfield as a precedert for the present measure; but the fact was, not only that Lord Cornwallss, the late Bishop of Lich. ield, contributed to the repairs to almost the whole extent of his re. venue, but that a great proportion of the chapter revenue3 now and hereafter, was available for such repairs as were necessary. (Hear.) The dean and chapter ef that cathedral would feel asharmed to come to Par1aenn with setch an application as the present. (Hear.) Sir J. NEWPORT said, that in consequence of the carelessness of those who should keep those sacred edifices in repair, many of the most ancient of them had vanished. Funds which shioutld have been applied to the repairs of cathedrals had too often been appropriated to the purpose of private emolmnent; snd then the house was caUed on, artfully enough, to furnish nmoney for repairs, because no inquiry was instituted as to what had be- come of those funds. Sums were levied on entire parishes for this purpose; but from those parochial proceedings the whole body of the Reman Catholics were excluded. They were liable to contri. bute their money, but they bad no control wbatever over the disbLrsement or application of the fund. It was, he conceived, a Freat hardship to throw the burden of rePairing a church on individuals who were of a different religion. It was a shame th)at in ro rich a diocess as Derry it had become necessary to apply to the Presbyterian bodv for the use of their chapel. (Hear.) Gentlemen were taunted with entertaining a wish lo degrade the church of Ireland; but who was now endeavouring to degrade it? Was it not degraded in the eyes of the community, by eoming before Par. liament with such a denand as this ? (Hear.) Air. DAWSON said he feared the citizens of Derry would be Jeft without a place of worahip, unless the house camc to some prompt decision on this subject. Atpresent the dtizens had in fact no church,for it happened thatthe cathedral,which was in a dilapidated atate,was the only churcll witbin the walls,and no servicehad been per. formed there for two years: theconsequence was,that it was found ne. cessary to apply to the Presbyterian congregation for the use of their chapeL (iear.) The citizens were not able to repair the cathedral; anl thus7,000 or 8,000 people were without a regular place of worship. The difficulty of the case was, to devise some mode of giving them a elhrch, without saddling them with the expense. As a letter written by him had been aUutded to, he begged to say a few words relative to it He regretted that that letter had made its appearance in ublic. It was a letter written for a private and local purpose and he was sorry that it had been published: but as it ha been given to the publije, he must say that he was pre- pared to support the opinions which were therestated. (Hear.) He felt no hesitation in ,4tjng his opinion to the Bishop or Dean of Derry. He thougbf reenues of the church should when it was necessary, bc applied76 the pusrposeof repairs. (Eiear, hear.) That 'this was not doneiithe present case, was the more extraordinary astbediches of etiocesswerenotorious. (Hear.) He never had hTunk from hiduty in 8spporting the stablishee Church, but he co4uld not'avoid telling the Bisho and Dean that they ought to do something for their cathedre.l. He was glad that he ha atn oppor- tunity of saying thus much. He hoFed the debate would co forth to the publlc; and that thboe whlo were iinterested in the tnatter would weigh the opinions which had been exprepsed this day. Ile concurred in the sesrtiments which had fallen from the bo- nourahbi gentlemen opposite, and also from bis hon. friend near him, (Ir. S. Bourne.) He trusted those sentiments would bave the effect of bringing the dean and dergy to a proper sense of their duty. The intention of the present bilt was, to make the naish- ioners liable for present and fature repairs; and he coulk visb, whether it was .^grced to or not, that the house would take some step to put this ancient edifice into repair. Mnr. PLUNKE'T expressed his entire concurrence in the opi- nions of the hon. hart, opposite (Sir J. Newport), and of is riglht honourable friend near him (Mr. S. Bourne.) The church of lreland ouglht, ie conceived, to be vindicated from any participation in a measure of this kind. He was glad to have that opportunity of renderingdustice to thehighly respectable indi- vidual who was at the head of the diocess of tondonderry. It was but common Justice to say, that there was not an individual in Ire- land or in England who acted with more uniform generosity, who was more utterly regardless of Private interest and expense, or who delighted more in works of charity and benevolence. He (Mr. Plunkett) thought it was a most improper thing, that those economy funds, as they were called, were not sought after, and properly be- stowed. Those funds, he believed, were frequently mis-appropriat. ed. IlIe felt that no person could do the church greater service at the present monnent, or at any other time, (but more especially at the present hour, when general attention was called to the subject), than by showing the clergy the necessity of entrenching themselves on puhlic oninion hy their good conduct. (Hear, hear.) Sir G. HtIlL, as we uniderstood, intimated his willingness to withdraw the bilh . Air. HUME denied having made use of any expressions (in his speech of a former evening) which even bordered upon disrespect to. wards the Lord Bishop of Derry; but he was confident that every circumstance a'sout the state of the church otf Ireland cslled for in- - - --I nC th,ddliirch who refused quiry ; aiiti ady--,,--~.... -- spoken in f`hvQur OX to acce'de to it. If the hon. gentlemen who h( the present bill hadl suipported hiis (Mr. Hlume's) -motion of Thurs- (lay evening, such an inquiry might pr0bably have been obtained as would have led to the accomnplishrnent of their object. MVr. IV. SMITH would trouible the house with very few words, ar the bill was albout to be wvithdrawn. . Here was an open attack made upon a highly respectable body of persons-.an inquiry into the duties of the Irislh Society of I~ondon towards the city of Lan- donderry. Vow all he would pray was, that the inquiry askedfo might go forward, that the inquiring comumittee might he instructed to asicertain bv whose delincguency the cathediral of Derry~ had beep sfferedto0fallinto utterruin, andthartthe parties by whose faultt th dtilaiain a ccre ih outid to pay the expense of the repairs. WVith respect to the accomimodation for public wosipi the mean timie, the lion, meniber had no doubt thait the facilities now givrn by the Presbyterians would be eontinused. The bill was then withdrawn by consent. Alir. Alderman WOQOD brought in several bills to enable the city nf Lon4on to bolrrow money at 4i per cent., to pay off the c'harge upon the Orphans' Fu nd, andi for various other purposes. CORPORATE COMPANIES. Lord STANLEIY liaving movedthle second readling of the btifor incorporating tile Manchester and Salfordt loan comnpany, Mr. HUSKISSON saidi that lie shiould certainly, object to bills passing f-or incorporation, unles whiere charter was first regularly obtained from the Crown,. Thiq was the old and the regular course of Parliamentary prcoceeduing-,Having, obtained their charter from thc- King in couincil, the company c ne to the Hiouse of Commons for fUrther powers, and he (M1r. HUski%;son) saw no reaon for deviatiiig from the established practice. Legislative incorporations involved numberless difficulties, miany of which could scarcely be dealt witlh. A chiarter fromi the Crown might be revolked, if it was abused, or if he coimpany failed to fulfil their undertakings with the piiblic, but thlis coulti not be done in the case of a legislattive enact- ment; andI to authorize an unlimited number of trading companies in such a mnanner, would be to do a mrost material mischiief to the country. Hei held, for instance, in his hand thc rliarter of the first company whiich had been formed for lighiting the city of London with gas. A:ccording to the letter of that document, the powder was given by the King, and might be revoked by the King in ease the comspany aiupted it. Here, then, was a means by which that particular com- pany could be dealt with; bue how could Government deal with 'abou frycompaniies (not royally chartered) since, which had been funned for lighting different parts of England by gas ? Companies were going on to form themselves into corporations for evPry pur- pose-no isiatter what--of trade: how was the p,ublic to pro- ceed in case they neglected to fulfl their condiuions ? Parties might go to law and get a verdict ; hut how and wliere were they to levy? In conclusion, (thie right hon. gentleman siaid) he wfould not object to giving bodies who might be about to do bu- siness on a la-rge scale, thiepower of sufingand being sued collectively; but he certainly shiould opipose the tak(ing every wild aod idle ape-. culation that might oftitr itself, out of the general operation of the laws of th e cou ntry. After a few words from Lord STANLEY which did not reach us, thie bill was read a second tutne. W"EST INDIA COMPANY BILL. Mir. MIANNIN-G, after afew observations, which wereinaudjiblein the gallery, moved the second readingoftlieWestlndja Company bill. Mr. HUSKISSON did not mean to say that there might not exist a strong case on the part of this particular company for incor- poration ; but he could see nothing at present which took it out of the rule which he had just laid down with respect to the Manchester and Salford loan bill. Without at- tempting to judge the question of the policy of incorpora- ting a West India Company, he took the objection which he had before urged generally-that the origin of it was iire.Kulgr, and that the parties must be required to begin with obtaining irast of all their charter from the Crown ; and if it shouldl be found that its powers were insufficient, they would then be entitled to come- to Pariaent either for the enlarging or confirming of those powvers. Mlr. ELLICE understood from the right honourable gentleman, that the gas bill to which he had referred in Isis first observationa, had been granted conditionally-that is to saty if the Company could not obtain a charter from the Crown, then tue powers of the bill were tobheinoperative. Why notallow this bill to proceed upon the siame conditions? AMr. HI TSKISSON repeated his objections to allowing any bill for incorporation, which was Fnot preceded by a charter obtained from the Crown. Mlr. SYKES thought that the bill could not he allowed to proceed to a secondi reading. He looked upon it as an aggressive andl en6roaching measuire, introducedI under the mnodest garb of a pri. vate bill, to the great prejudiceeof the public interes3ts. liecould not at all conjecture how it tended to give any relief to the West India prorietorsw,hich they could sot obtain quite as easily at presnt. lis chief objections to it were on public grounds. He disliked the command which the accumulation of so large a capital as 4,000,0001. would give to the company over the WVest India trade. He. knew that no undertaking could be inore hazardous tkan such an inve-st. ment, and it was a still stronger objection that the creditors of the company would have no security for their debts, excepting the pro. pertv comprised in. the act of incorporation. The separate members would be rendered individually irresponsible. 'jras it to be endured that the unfortunate people who might be induced to intruat themn with their property, without ever suppiosing that they were not re- sponsible individually, should be left in a state so disadvantageous?P He knew himself of parties who had sued a miayor and corporation, and recovered from them : but still the mayor and cor- poration laughed at the success of the suitor,' becaiuse their corporte property and responsibility only being in ques- tion, rthere was inothing upon which he could seize of suffi- cient value to meet his demndil.' Not one in a thousand who could deal with this company woul d be aware that the members were not answerable individually for their debts. But they hiad more than this to dIre-ad. This influence of so formidable a company over the West India trade would be extremely dletrimental.. What indivi.. dual merchant could compete with a company p~ossessing 4 millions of capital ? Then it was tohbe observed thttis capital was to be di- vide ino 4,00 shresat 001 eah. e did not wislh to say any thsing at peset uon te Wst ndiasysem,but he could not but observe cha agins te dctaes f easn ad ound policv it was yet very strngl supored.It as sujec, te interest of wrhich had crep int tht huse an hed mny o i onboth sides of the house. Hie didnotwis fr te scces f tis ewplan, which would tend to spread its influenc over the whiole popuation of the country, and by that meanis becme a. considerable access~ion of power in a quarter already too strong. It was a plan, in short,for enlisting 40,000 persons on the wide of the present West India system. What ne-cessity coulA there be for making these new levies to serve under the banners or' the West Indian arni~y? If money were wa-sted, it could be bor. rowed on goodl security at present, andI on terms quite as reasonable as this company could afford. The ulterior dangers, however, which were greatest, were those of injuring the West India trade and the interests of our manufaictures as far as they were connected with it,land strengthening another interest, which, w7ith respect to jUstice and buianity might be regretted as being already too stung. MIr. Gl9EifiLI said, that it was suggested that the e6tablish- ment of this company tended to make the condition of negro.sla.. very, in the West Indies worse than at present. If it sihouild turn out, Ion examination of the subject at any futture timne, that he could be' brought to that opno,he was one of the sa3tmen in thie world who wudspotLt-Iha would instantly ,withdraw hid nam'e from it. Butas e tougt hatthee ws agod opportuffity for employing a potio oftha caita whch as ow loais4hbqt for want of someopprtunty f inestent he oul suportit;especially as iehadherd othngto ndue im o blive hatitwotild spake thecoditonof laerywose n relnd(laughter)-he meant to zsay, in the West ndes. Air, T. WILSON defended the plan as one of peculiar conve- nience and accommodation to the West India proprietors, who would, hut for this establishment, be obliged to go hawking about their securities, and by that means incur the disagreeable suspicion of being in insolvent circumstances. ilIr. WI'WILIAMZIS F6pppsed the bill, and promised to oppose it atevery stage. How coud ancopany carry on the business of plantations better than e!Zpert :individuals ? Did it become Parlia- ment to sanction the pretence of~ Ia rieore profitable investment of capital~ whichi might sweep scores of helpljess famnilies into its vor- tex if it shiould not be successful ? But he chiedy objected beptuse it offered an obstacle to the gradual ameliorationi god final abolition of sliavery It was in vain to look for aniy suchi result, if the estates in the West Indies should, have to be managed by, a company re. sidin here, actuated solely by a sense of pecuniary incerest, in. stead f being subjected, as they were at present, to thie occasional visits of an enlightened and humane proprietor, educated with all the moral adva4tag,es which generally went to form the character of an English gentleman. Instea,d of this, should the companiy be incorporated, ever ting would be left to sordid and unfeeling agents; anIal hopes which had been enter- tained in regard to the unfortunate slaves would give place to the abuses which hact been the subject of complaint in Parliamient for 310 years pest. Mr. W. WHITMlORE strongly opposed the bill, because it threatenied the freedom and general interests of the sug'ar-trade, and tended to estabhih a banef'ul monopoly. It was well known that the West India sugar mnarket had produced an excess of the article for several years past, which was now, however, rapidly dliminish- ing. Let thiis company he establishied, and not onl would the ex- cess be diminished to nothing, but the public m,ight e called upon to pay from 501. to 1001. per cent, beyond the natural value of the commodity. Hethiought it extraordinary, after the pernicious and lamientable example of the South Sea scheme, that there should he any attempt in any, way to renew the experiment. There was but one reason of good policy to allow the institution of a joint stock company. There should he the most unquestionable proof before granting the charter, that there was no otlier mode of carrying on the trade.so safe or convenient as by an incorporated company., For wan ofhi preatio, AamSmih,in commenting on the South Sea chee, ad asered,on te athoityo au Frnh tone tha Mr. A. ELLIS, thsossyh indir&tiy inte, nested in this OtteSluon, could only give his consideratio'h to it upot public groundis, upon which grounds he wisihed it every success. T,he house had itin their power to nledge hisr lion. friimnil either too dotain .a charter before the bill sbotld comne out of the commiittee, or to withidaw it altogether.- Hc approved of it as an admirable snearfli. for the emiploymient of barren capital; anathse names of suecessibl capitalists in thedirection avea sultieient promiise of adyantmgand.success. Heapproved ofth,e Irilibecauseit tended todifflisemnorewidelya senseof theimportaneeof the West India islatnds, andibecause it weould act as a cauti on among the people of this country, not to be too, -ready to interpe in the in- ternal government of those colonies, to dfie evident risk f their na- tural interests; and he could not have: anticipated thstt this would have been urged as any objection to the bill. Air. WV. SMITH would hot have risen at this period of the even- ing, to the de, laofwhiat was called public business, but that he thought the bill befbre the house related to a mneasure far more im- portant than most of the public business they might be called uipon to discuss. Hecoornplained that the latenessof the time at whichthie bill had been printed prevented gentlemen from having 'iven to the subject thie attention it demanded. If the opposition which hie felt obliged to ofrer to it should be iimputed to any hostility he might be supposedI to entertain against the colonies, Ihe begged to say that nothing could be more unfounded. He did not hesitate to express his firm opinion, thiat the systemn whichi the colonies were pursuing was a Rystern which must end in their comxplete ruin;- and lie believed t at the effect of the measure now proposed would be, to involv-e therip ins far greqter nisry than what they nowv suffered. okin at the propose cmany onlya riaeoe he could not but thi'nk, thatphtever a tanages'of local nowledge they might posess would be more than couniterbalanced by the prejudices whrich might be supposed to actuate them. In nine cases out of ten, it might be reaonably supposed, that they would rather pursue what miight, appear to be the interests of the comipanv than thoge qf the planters. But there was another and a public point of view int whirl1 tliig measure seemed to hiim still more objectionable. At t' he present moment 'the IVest India inter- ests enjoyed the'advantage of a mon'fopoly of sugar, suippor-ted by a high protecting dluty. He would ask whether an instance had ever before, occurred, where, under such circumstances, and with silch advantages, g monopoly upon an article whichl lighit almiost be galed nne of tlp negessaners of life, hgd beeni found to fail, it hadl been thought expedient to take 'it out of the liands of individuals, and to throw fIt into those of a con,pany' whose imnmediate interest it inust be to increase themionopoly ? Ih nymas ywihti company cauld hope to gain any atdvantage froma their eaterlurise must be by raising the pric-e of- sugar ; andl to this end they were to be allowed to buy and sell to the amount of four millions. This consideration, iff it were the only one which the present bill involved, opght to induce the house to pause uppri the bill ; and for this rea- o, swell as ftr he shoitneig' of the ntotice upon which it had been brou,'gh_St before'the hbtite, he felt it his duty to oppose it. Mlr. HUSKISSON proposed to state very, shortly the grounds on whichahe differed fromthe honourable gentleinan. Ifhe understood that the bill was to have the operation which the hoitourablc gentle- roan144~scrhedto it;' hc ssoiAld think it was highly objectionablo on h~ eneal rici~e. her mihtbe some ground for his oh- jecio toth prciitacywit wichithad beep brought forward ; 'but he hoourahe gentiemabad arge as if the efErezt of the bill wasto ecre he hoe tadeoftheWet rIndies to the company prpoed to be fomed. Ho had stated that it could not fail to as the price of sugar, because the company were to become great dealers in it; and with a capital of four mnillions, to unite in themselves a monopoly both as planters and as traders. This was, however, not the intention of the company as far as he~ ( Mr. liuskis&on) understtsod it. T4hey did ncot propose to trade stall; they never int,erded to begoune either t he'buyers or seller-s of suma, but to be in precsely the amne situation as what were now called West India house ot agency ; that is to say, they were to receive the consignment% of the produce of West India estates, as West India agents did, aundin that capacity they were to sell them ; but they were not in any case to go into the market as dealers, or to employ their capital for the purpose of deAling in West India conmme. dities. Any tiumber of persons whlo. migbt obbose to unite as partners for the same purpose would be at liber'ty to do so; there could be no mieans of limiting the numnbersof suchi partners, and they miight, by establishing a ilrest India agency, place themnSeLves hi precisely the same situation as this company. The authiorities of Adam Smithi rand the Abb6 Alaury had been arrayedi against it, anid All the arguments cautiously urgje4 ag4inst mnoriopoles and joint stock comipanies liad been atpplied to thlis. It was, h wever, not only no monopoly, but when the circumstances in whIch the West India interests were placed should be fully considered, he thought the house would be induced to permit the plan to be carried into effect, in the hope of relieving these interesis. Ile (Alrl. Huskisson) would not support any corsppny whose qb,j(ct it 4ho-ald be to raise the price of sugar by means of a minqn4oly. 'But was'there, he asked, at this mome3nt nothing in 'the condition of the lVest India proprietors that madle it desirable for the house to encoerage (if they could do so with- out the violation of any sound principle) any means which shouild appear likely to afford them relief, by fu;rnishing them with a loan of money ? The occasionql unprouctivues ot~ their estaItes, gnd te cosoe~l nuj.n euiy~ had preven ted the owners from bori6i~jil money at tle legal rate o interest Hie ap- pealed to the landed interests of England, aind wouldl ask themn whe-. ther, if such circumstances prevailed here-if they were in a similar state pressed by their creditors, rind without the means of raisinig mon ey by the incumbranre of their estates-they would think it ex- traordinay or imipolitic, to adopt an expedient which should be de- viedfor afforing them relief by a mortgaqe of their estates ? This was the whole intent of the present bill. The West India proprie. eorsad ome astyeartqtiehosewth statement of their dN~resses, whic coud no he ore rgen tha tbYwere. It wAts prop.osed to be an immediate and imnportant relief to theiVtIdaitrss and now that individuals were disposed to furnishthtrle,ewa at a loss to guess upon what good ground it shouldbeoecdt. Tfhe claim of those interests to assistance became stilmr ret when it was remembei~ed that their dsrs a nud o ncn sequence of any fault of their ow-n bto h rc~i fta house and of Parliament It had 5ensi lehr,ta ohn could he more likely to produc-e thea lirtoofhecntonf the slaves t5ari ~the duatress of' the West lrldla proprietors. If he (Mlr. Busikisson) entertained any su'ch belief he inight per- haps bc induced. to pay sos-ne attention to this reasoning; but he besought the house to look well at the situation of te planters,and say whether,unable as they were to live but byeaso loans at exorbitant interests, the slaves were more likl nb taken care of than if a more prosperous state of things cudb e stored to the colonies. (Hear.) One of the consequences of the distress of the ipasters was naturally to aggravate the distress of the -slaves; and any relief which hbotil4he afforded to the fprmer wouldi be relief to both, because- it would at once enable and induce the masters to co-operate w~ith the Government at home to alleviate the lot of that class of beings for the improvetment of whose general and "physical condition no man was mnore anxious than he. Any oppo- site measures might perhaps drive the planters to despair ; but it was not Ilikely they would therefore remove the distress of the slaves. 1'With respect eq the capital of the proposed company, he believed there were houses now in England wvho emplloyed nearly as large an amount. Upon these grounds, and without pleging himself wholly to the support of the bill, be thought that it ougt owtoe ufere t pocedtotheseon radng ""en he ws apliedto b theperons ith hom he bll rignaed, he toldthe hethoghtthe ouht nt t as an thng romthe house beynd ha an pesoa wre aily ntile to whsenumbers wer s lrje ha itmihtbeinonenent to tem to sue and be suedin heirownname. H ditincly tate, tat e was not dis- posed to graRt themi any protectioR agahs h prto of thebank- rupt laws, nor any other of the e)cluseprvlgso a corporation. Having said thus mauch, he qhodl4 rere hsoionon the mierits of the bill to ijsfrthei 'strgex, Dr. LUSHNNI TON objected to the porinciple of the bill, rind reminded the house that if they consenited to give this company whiat they now asked, it would perhaps be easy for them to obtain thie sanction of the Crown to become a corporation. Thle right lion. gentleman (Alr. Huskisson) had not stated in the couirse of his observations what was too well known-that the colonies hadl been a losing concern for some years back; and he had no less carefully abstained from stating his own opiniion, that this proposed advance of c-apital would be enough to keep the system alive. The legal rate of intere8t on West India property was now six per cent. ; but he asked,was this the rate at whichi iuoney was ever lent ? WVere not, in reality,the advances of money by consignees, and the insurance of the stores, nearer in armount to ten per cent. ? It was said that IVest India property was insecure. Vry true, it was so ; and why?Becase te reurnsof te etates were insufficient, and therfor a~anes wre eve mae but under the circum-i stacesandupo th tems e ad stated, And how wa it tat he popoed cmpay wa toreleve this st4te oftins It ustbe ithr b risig te piceofsuigar, or by becoming the holersof he es Inia staes.Ifthey should become the hiolders of those estates, they woul inteir character of mortgagecs be unable to exercise all that privilege of manumitting the slaves wrhich was exercised by the proprietors,and which was in every point of view of ihe deepest importance There were othier reasons arising out of -the bill uponL which he felt obliged to oppose it. It emp.owered the comipany to lend money -in any part of thle globe; teewas no limitation to the West Indies nor to sany other colony. [MAr. Huskiss'on said across the lable, as we understood, that any persons inight lend mnoney ooi any security they thought proper.] Time right hon. gent. was quite correct, any person niight do so ; but this coDipany asked to do it under the authority of Pailiament, And in t4e fq'-rm of a corporation. 'Besidaes, if so niuch good was eo be exipected from spich a tpeaptire, why had it n]ot already been tried ? lVhat had prevented thiose gentlerneii'who rpyopsied to formi the new company from havilng made advances ? H~e objected particularly to thait power in the bill which, under certain circumstances, wouldI enable thie company' tohold the estates on which they were to lend mo- ney, in mortwra nssus, untiltheAttorney-General shouldfillean infor- mation, ora foreclosure of the mortgageshould be decreed by a court of eujuity. The hems,and learned gentleman oncluded by declaring his intention to vote against the farther progress of the bill. Air. F. BUXTON, after the length to which the discussion liad proceeded, would -in a few words only protest against the measure as highly detrimental to the interests of the slaves. In the first place, by enhancing their value it would make the chance of. their the powernot of their qwnerS, but, of personls whj vwoul? not bave the power, eren if they had the inclinaiien, to give them their free- dom, it would render their sinmation far more hopeless than it was at present. He shoulNI, therefore, teel it to be his duaty to oppose the bill at every possibleopportunity. Mr. AV. HORTON objected to the question of the slaves being mixed up with the principle of the bill before the house. lie looked upon the measure as one which would place tlhe West India planters in the same situation as a mortgaee in this country, and it afforded them this additional advantage, that they might transfer their securities with ficility and advantage. le considered that this waas not tbe'time to go at any length into the detailh of the bill, which there wotuld be many other o portunities of discqssing, and exRpreseal bis intention of voting fobrie second reading. fr. EVANS considered the bill to be so oWjcctionable, that he was determin'ed to o pose it in every stage. He would therefore take the sense of the house on the question of reading the order of the day. The gallery was-then cleared for a division, but illr. EVANS de. cined to press it, anid the order of theday was therefore rcad. Oil the question that the bill be read a second time, Mlr. AI ANNING said a few words inaudible in the gallery. 31rl SYKES oppose4 the bill: He apprehended that the Immense capitalof the 6omnpony,and theinfluence which it would consequently procure them,woula enable them to obtaina monopolyof the market for NVest India produme. TheWest Indian merchantsalready possessed a monopoly of the home-market; there would, therefore, be a mo- nopoly within a monopoly-an isnperin in imperio. Another con- sequence of the p~ajing Of the incorporation of the company would be, to increase the quanitity Of sugarl which could not, be conceived, bcUnder these circumstances, he felt it his da second time this day six months. AIr. HUSKITSSON said a few words in explaniation. The hon. memnber for Norwiclh (M11r. AV. Smnith) bad in his opinion misun- derstood thie neaning of the clause to which he had referred. in the course of his speech. Thieclause in question conferred nopower be- yond thatof agem%ic pon the company. Air.11'. SMITH diffcred fromn the righithon. gentlemnanlwithi Mr. . MORE pposd te bil, s we understood. The houise Fatthesecnd eadng,l0-against it, 30. THE ASSESSED TAXES. Lord HOTHA1A rose to present a petition, praying for the repeal of the assessed taxes. Mlr. CANNiNG said, that he was willing to throw, open the doors of that house as wide as possible for the admission of peti- tions, but he really thoughit, that since the hon. memnber hadl not thouglitfit to present the petition st an earlier Deriod he should'now refrain from presenting it unitil a Jfuture evcnirig. ife had bo objec- tion to the particular petition which thie mnember held in hiis hiand, but lie feared, that if 'one petition referring to ublic matters were presented that evening (after the time which hialaready been occu- pied in the discussion of the West India C ompany bill), the whiole of the petitions of a similar nature which hlon. members had to present rould follow, and that would retard the commencement of public business until antiurbusually lateand inconvenient hour.( Hear.) Ibord HOTHAMI said; he hadi been instructed by his const' - tuents not to present the petitiona until that evening. LIe wishied t'o know whether he was% in ordler in presenting it ? The SPEAKER said, that the hion. memnber was at libert3ytdO present thie petition if' hie pleased. It was the first public petitionl which had been presented that evening; and he had thirce papers, cotaining a list of 4b members, who wished to present Nimnilar peiins., (Alaugh. Lord HOTHAM thien presented the petition, which was frOm the inhabitants of the boroughi of Leominster. Alr. JERVOIS.E presented two petitions, also praying fohr the re.- peal of the assessed taxes, from the inhabitants of 'Salisbury and W'inchester. A A MxstagR on the opposilion benches exiwessed a wrish that members would desist froii presenting petitions at that late hiour of the eveniing. (Hear.)~ Mr. CANANGIN observed, that as the house had permitted one Petition to be presented, he could not see how thecy could stop the presentation of more. Mir. HJUAE hoped that, for the sake of' public convenience, no more petitions would be pirestented. He hiad six hiimself which hie wouldt reserve for another occasion. (A laugh.) Mr. CANNING appealed to the Speaker,toknow what course thle house ought to adopt withouit atppearing to act unfCairly towa?rds throee gieinteen who had eiin to pent.. The SPEAKER sgetdthtay member who had any thing to moive should e paI dmv t Mlr. MIABERL mciaeyrse, andl at the sarne time several memnbers, with eiiosithrhads, also rose. There was, how.. ever, a loud cry for Alir. kl aberly, and after somie timne tile hon. metisbers wlho hadi risen gave way, sodi Alr. MABERLY proceeded. lie rose, in pursuance of notice, to move for the repeal of a certain portion of trile taxes whiich were rtoiv paid by the people of this couintrv. Ile intenided to dleal wih tiesbject in the largest possible way. Hlis object was to procuire the repeal of thecwhole of the assessed taxes. In tile corurse of his address lie would allude to the financial scherme which the Chancellor of thie Exchequer had ptropoundled in thec couirse of the present session he wouldi also state the view whiceh he enter- tained of the sinking funtd, and endeavour to prove the expediency of remitting the taxes whichi hie had mentionied. At the comnmence- inenr of the seasion, the Chancellor of the Exchecquer liatd exhibited a precis which contained hiis plan respecting the expenditure anti mevenue for the next fourr years. If the Chanicellor of thie Ex- dcequer's precis were to be adhered to, it wouald be in v-ain for the country to hiope for theio epeal of any taxes ttntil the year 1829. The righit hon. gent. had estimated that on the 5th of' January, 1112,be wouilil hiave a balance of revenue over expenditure, amounting to 4,130,9991. The right lion. gent. had formed thiis estimiate with refercene to tile existence of a sinking fttnd of five millions. The view whbich he (Mlr. AMaberly) entertained was, that it would be better, in the present situation of tile country, to get rid of the sinkitig fund, and to remit taxes to that amount. He did not consider it necessary to answer at any lengthi the state- ments whiceh had been put forth withr respect to the prttended bene- fits which resulted from a sinking fund. It would take a m-ore able calculator than he was to discover where the sinking fund had existedI since the year 1792. He challenged anyv member of that house to prove thiat a sinking fund had been in eiistence fromn the year 1792 down to 1819. The house had lately acquiiredI a better notion of the nature of a sinking fund, whiich was now acknowledIged to be a sur- plus of revenue ever expendlitture. In 1792, the amnounit of the debt was 200,000,0001., and in 1819 it was 800,000.0091. A n increase of debt of about 600,000,00.01. had, thierefore, taken Place durinir the period whien, as it was asserted, the sinkingrund had been in ope. rattion. The honourable memiber then prced to argue, that owing to the recent rise in the price of the funds. it woulti require a considerablv larger sum to pav ofTthie funded debt of the United Kingdomn (ta'king the value at 20 years' purchase) at the presenit moment. than it wouldI have required in 1819. If the funds should continue'to advance, it would be absurd to suppose that any reduc- tion of debt could be elf'ected with a sinking fund of tive miillions Suchi a sinking ft;nd would be of no more importance tItan a drop of water lit the ocean. It was not so much thie aniount of the debt as the r4te of interest wliceh was paid upon it, that Parliament ought to direct its attention. By reducing the rate of interest, the public would be imisedliately relieved. It was wrong to suppose thiat the amnount of a tax which was abandoned was lost to the re- venu. Te cpita whch as tus eftin the ha-ads of the public was eployd insuch wayas t proe benefic'ial to the revenue. The mout o th 3 pr cnts wa 02,000,0001., antl the interest paiduponthemwasl0,ilO,00l. If we remainleil at peace thee culdbe erylitle oub tat the Government would be enaled i a a r imeto reuce the interest of the 3per cents, If the interest were reduced to 21, a saying of 1,330,0001. would be effected but if it were reduced to 2,the saving would be 2,635,0001. He thiought it necessary, to say a e od epecting the danger of trusting the Chancellor of the l(xchiequer with a large surpltis. In such a case the estiMateS were never cut down so low as they ought tok be. Ev-ery one knew, from his own experience, thiat, whien a private individual posseasco a considerableinsurplu,s of income over expenditure, hie becamie imprudent and extravagant. Notwithstanding that thlc Chan- cellor of the Exchequer hadl repualed part of' the aSSesse taxes, he, believed that the expense of collectiOn was actu- ally greater now than it lhad formerly beenl. Another proof' of the impropriety of trusting the Chancellor of the Ex,chequer icith a lage urpus as o b fond n te iprovidenit bargain wbich he had ade espetingthe ead eigh bywhich thie righit hon. gentle- man ost2,00,001. Wen he rghtlion, gentleman had statedl thathe wnte 900000. fo chrche,Vplaces, and pictuires, there wasa sron felig i th httatht ile wants of the country had beentriledwit. Hewoud nw sateto the house the taxes which he proposed to repeal. They were tIle house anti window dttties, the horse and agricultural horse tax, the tax on carriages anti carts, the tax on coachmsak-ers' licensest, tue tax on hairoowd.er and arro- irial berns the composition for the above, &C., art,onnt- ig altogether to 3,560,0001. a.year. if thlelisouse shiould thiink proper to vote for thec repeal of those taxes, hie couild see no reason why the whiole expense of collecting tliein, anioitnting to 300,0001. , should not also be got riri of. If the taxes shiould be repealed, there could be no pretence for retaining any part of the ex- pense of collecting theiii, except, indetl, for the purpose of affording retired allow.ances to those who had been engaged in that service He would be the last man to propose that a servant shouldl be tuxrned adIrift without reward, because his services were no longer re- quired. It was not by such italtry savings as9 might be effected by buch a proceeding thatt the country would be be- nefitted. On the contrary, he thought thlat it was for the ad- vantage of the country, that men who had spent a considerable por- tion of their lives in the puiblic siervice, shbould be adequate'ly pro- vided for when the period of their retirement arrivetl. There was no chance that the Clhancellor of the Exchiequer, if left to himnself, would renilt the taxes which he (Mr. sAlaberlyl propose-d to repeal. Ta,indeed, was pretty evitlent froisi what occurred shortly, af.terthe late repeal' of a portion of the house arid windtow dluties. At that time thie commissioners of taxes sCnt letters to the assessors in all parts of the coutntry, dir.ecting themn to survey the houses in the district, and telling them th-at if tlseY used their utmost diligence,and increased the amount of the returns, they- would be favourably recominended to the Trrcasury. This proceed. ing created the UtMOSt alaJin throuighout the couistry, and represen - tations poured in u6on Gjovernnment on the subject from all quarters. The hanellr o th E~heqer,under those circumstances, wisey pt asto totheproosei srve,which he decIlaed was ottly, tho1jh offorthepupos ofequlizngthe duties. But if there was ny mpot inwors, t ivs eidet tat the object of thne com- nilaionrs f txeswas o icrese nsinor to equialive the duties. The ssesedtaxe mut h conitlredas direct taxes. Bult how would the house receive a proposition f'or the impositiotsiof an incomle or property tax, which was the onlyvfair mode of direct taxationfl The house would, he believed ,scarcely allotw such aphlan to be stated. The strong feeling wlliels prevailed against assessed taxes was owing to the inquisitorial system by whichl they were collecetd. Tuie whole of the machinery by which tise assessedi ta.'\es were collectedi was most oppresive. In three-fourths of thle eases ~ in wvhich penalties were inure on acco'snt of not fillinig up the returns, pen plI erred, not intentionally,but fromn ignorance with respect to whiat they ou ght to do. Poor people weretreqgAently deterred fromiappealing again,st the decielon of the collectors on account of the losso time which generally attended such a proceeding. It might be said that carriages were articles of luxutry, andlthierefore were proper objects of taxa-tion. But lookinir.glas~ses were qjuite as mnuch articles of luxry s crriges aI yet the formier did niot pay an annual duty, WhlilNt the latter did. The lionourable member thlen aliuded to Ireland, whlich was relieved fromi the aisses edi taxes. in Ireland the taxation amounted to no more than los: per head, whilst in Enigland it amnounted to al. l0s, per head. Nearly the whole expense of Ireland f'ell upon the people ot'fEng- land. This was to be attribnited to the want of empl)oyment whbichl prevailed in that courltry, He feared that if some mode of relieving the distresses of Ireland were not devised, she would become a dan, gerous enemy to England. The unforatitate situation of Ireland would induce her to rebel, and place herself under the protection of any foreign power that appeared to sympathize with her sufferings. The hen. member concluded by moving the following resolution:- " That it is expedient, that from and after the 5th day of Janu- ary, 1825, the duties now payahie oni houses and windows shall cease and determine. That it is expedlient, that froln and afler the 5th day of Janqa,ry, 1820, the duties on servants, carriages, coacsimakers' lieences, horses; mules, togethev with aU conipositions for the said duities shall cease and determine." at r. LEY HES'1ER secanded the motion. The IHANCEId4(R of thie EXC'HEQUER said, that the honourable member who lhad brought forward tite mintien had merely ngitated the same question whiich had come unmier the con- sideration of the house about six weeks ago, uon au anotiont made by the honourable member for Westminster (S.r. florhouse.) Upln that occasion he had stated the reasons why lie could not comisent to the proposed repeal of time assessed taxes, and nothing had since occurred to invalidate those reasons. The grounds upon wlhich the honourable member for WVestminster rested his motion were precisely similar to those which the hotn. member for Abingdon had that night advanced in suppo rt of his proposi- tions. The hon. member for Westminster, however, had not been able to persuade the house to agree to his proposition, and he could see no reason whv the efforts of the honourable ulem- ber for Abingdon should be attended with a happier result. (Hear.) He was not qtuite accurate when lie said that the motion of the honourabic member was precisely the sante as that which had been made by the honoutrable member for Wt'estminster. The latter hon. member proposed the repeal of the house amid win- dow duties only, but the honourable member for Abingdon wished to extend the tepeal to every other article constitusting the assessed taxes. If the'argunients which lie (the (Chancellorofthe Excbe%uer) had used applied with any strength against a motion whica had lor Its object ;trepeal of taxation to the amount of two'millons, they musApl with greater force to one -which wvas intended to efbe~t a rePI taxes to the extent of threebsiliroune ard a hrdf. - ,Hb ~11. real of he'was ~s6t eallqd on~tb~igue thi ' sifstioln at aUafLir th'e u!e recent d. cision of the liousb.' (Hlear.) Ile woultI dletain thle bouse for a-very shiort time whilst -be alluded to one or -two points, of the ho. nmemnber's speech. . 'rtie hon. medmber liad aLsserted that tfie sinkinig futnd, or, mnore properly speaking, thie excess of revenue over expenditure lhad produced no diminution of de-bt. The honoulr.. abe memnber hadl compared the amount of the debt at the pre- sent moment with its amiount in 1819. IThat was not a fair moide of dealin- withi the subjcct. He should have gone back to.1810, when a 'surplus of revenue first existed. Since 1816, 25,000,0lio of uxifuncledt dt bt had been redeemed, together with 14,500,0001: of unfunded debt. This reduction had becn cffectedty rameans of the surplus of reveneae over expenditure, lcc it be clledb) ha name, or nicknaine, if it would please the lbon. membe,it byighat, The lion, member had also alluded to the e'tchilebill.,wiho the Ist of January, 1816, were, for Great Britain and Irel~and, 52,082,0001. Thev now were 34,044,OOOL, being a gre-ater redue-, tion than lie (the Chancellor of the Exchequter) had .spoken of. Re- sideq thit, it was perfecctly true that there-was a coaisitlerable dimi-. nution of charge, for which they were indebted to the sinking fund. He alluded to the reduction of the interest, for th'ough it mlifht be thouight that thtat was not referable to the sinking fend, y'e it weat impossible to say that the sinking fund had niothing to o with thlat saving; for liad niot the silucing fund been in existence, he doubte if he wou,,ld liave beiie in the situation to have allowed of the operation _taking place. The lionourable member said thaut by adopting lisa plan, it wouild give such an elevation to the funds that thev might be enabled to re-duce the interest of the 3 per cents. Ile (the 'Chancellor of the Exchequier) could not say what the pleasure of Parlialnenlt might he under the circumstances stated, but this he knew, that writh, thec sinking fuind thecy lhad reducedi the interest of thie debt 1,700,0001. Th'lere were nmany knowing persons who were speculating on the advanice of Chie 3 per cents to par, and the hon. member seemed to think that a probable result of' his Pilan. But was the existence of thec sinking tund to precludte that ? On the contrary, were not thie fttnds in'ilhat state to lead to the probability of greater reduc- tions,? Pe (the Chancellor of thie Excliequer) did not thirk that ihe hon. memnber had made out a verv strong ca-se a ainst hlis old friend the sinkir,g fund. The hon. memcrber had tofol the~ house, that accordingz to his (the Chiancellor of the Exchecquer's) statement' they hatl thie gIooiay prospect of no farther reduction of taxation for' tie next four years.' Hle(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would rather not dleal in prospect-, either gloomy or britliant. B3ut he would s;u ppose last year, wheni 3,200,0001. of taxes were remitted, the lio.meber miiglitt hiave said. " Ay, this is all verv well, but if yolt keep the sinking fund you can repeal no more taxes," vet 3,200,0001. had been repealed, snil they were now in the situation of repealing 1,250,0001. more, and the house hiad not found any indisposition on his part to bringr it forward. If' the increasing ProSperiWy oUlf the country would do what the hon. mnember saitiL itwud do, he (the Chancellor of the Excliequer) would findI himself in the samie situation as Ilie had already beep, wvlien the lhouse iniiehit expect, if he had the lionour to fill the same situation, that his conduct woitilt be guidled by the same prin.. ciphes as hitherto it bud. Every principle that he had hiitherto laid (town miust lead to thne consclua:on-.whicli indeed lie had always ex- prestsed in the miost unreservedt miinner-that if' a tax was very fhigh in proportion to the s'alue of the article, it 'was per ce a very good ihitig to get ridI of suchi taxes. Hle hoped, therefore, thle hiouse wouldt not be lect away by thec statements of th' honourable naetiiber, buit that they wvouild refor to the priaci.. pIeIson which llie ad alreadyvactcd. One word, before heCat down, oti the subiject of the house tax, on whichi lie thought he hiad ie a satisfactory explanation last year ; but as the lion, nemnber had aga-in referred to it, he would re-state wha-t helhad then said. 'tbhad been reprted to hint, that in many parts of the country theh N-a- was utnjustlv,andtunequiallylev-ied, iouse-sof the s~ame size and-,Iality-, in thec sam&estreet, being diff'erentlv rated. This appeared to hiim to bha the very essenre oDf injuistice, thiough no one was charged mnore thani tlle la-w allowed; andl he had considered tlhat, on a re-survey, the increase in the total amiount wouild have enabled him to ha~e proposed a peneral decrease of taxattion. In that view he had di.. recte(I the re-survey; but uvhen he heard that it was complained of, he gave directions that no surcharges should he made. Certainly thiere couldl be no injustice in making a man, whio had been paying less than lie ouigit, pay the proper amouint; and on that point lie thouglit his conduct had not mierited the animadversion of the hon. member. Mlr. 11 UME said the right lion. vent. had inatle some observa.. tions whichi had miuch sirprised him. He had on a forniier occasions stated the reduction of debt to be 24,000,01tO1., but lie had nowv ad. vanced it froni that sumn to 39,000,0001., but how he had arrived at that conclusioni it was impossible to say, for there was no diocumrent on which he couild have founded himself. The whiole ansount of surplus from 1816 up to last year, was only 7,000,0001., and the tdlfFerence of figures must arise from the change of the denomiination of the stock. Daring that period, also, we hiad beets borrowing money on deferred annuities, which the right hon. gentleman had not taken into the account. He (Afr. Hurne) had niot been prepared for such a round assertion as that of the right honourable gentleman, or he would have furnished him- self with his statement. But he would pledge himself to prove that the assertion of else right bonourable gentleman, that there hail boon a reduction of 39 millions, and a corresponding reduction of interest, was entirely, unfounded. The aggregate amiount of' the surplus of the different years did not amount to so mucli. It was, in fact, a very smnall soun, atid that we had lost by our jobbing transactions. The right lion, gent, had htoped the house would tiot be so inconsistent as to accede to isis hon. friend's motion, but the house hiad already sanctioned greater inconsistencies, for they li.d declared that not a sltilliiig of taxes could be repealed, and yet tune righit honourable gentleman was now taking credit to hirmself for the amount of taxes which had been taken off. He asked what had taken ulace since the motion made by the honourable nsember for Westriinster ? He (M1r. Hume) wonuld tell Cthe rigcht hon. gen.. florman,that since that period the table of the house had been cov'ered with petitions prayinig for the repeal of these taxes; andi he did think the hiouse seas bound to listen to theni, and consider whidtler tfie prayer of the people couild not be complieAd with. Taking the sinking fundl, which the right honourable gentleman calledt the- surplus fund, at three millions, he would askc was it fit that it should be employed in payinig off the 3 per cents, at 96, 97, and 98 ? Could any person suppose that woutld be of the samoe value as if it were remuitted from- the general burden of' tax-ation, as- the hoti. miover hadl proposed?F If it were considered that the as.. sested taxes were the only imnpediment to the return of thousands, or perhiaps tens of tholusanids, of pezsons at present resitling abroad, that aloiie wouldbe sufficientto indusce the rigli t hon. gent. to repeal them. He (Mlr. Hunie) was quiite satisfied, that if thie righit honourable gentlenian would exteuxi his liberal views on commercial subjects to. the afftirs of finance~, he wouldI find that tile 3,00)0,0001., if Ic-ft in the pockets of the people, would be productire of ten Limes the berieflethbey did at prestent. TI eie ubIliccredit stood too high to necd( any, sutch bolstering up as the sinlking-fund, wliich no creditor or thle pubilic asked for or desired to be continued. Resides, it was a mat- ter of great concern to be relieved from the 500,0001. expense of collection, exclusive of exactions whiich never could be eTntirely pre- venteel. On all these groundIs he was anxious to suppor-t the motfion. AMr. Alderman HEYGATE adnaittedI that the assessed taxes wvere the worst gore of taxes, inasmuch as they brought the people in. inure dlirect collision with the Government tha~n any other, and wouldl also admnit, that ais far as hte had observed, the people felt more grate- fu frnhireissioni of' one half tCie assessed taxes ttitani for all the otier ta\xes taken off, flt lie mnust object to this vote, because. he conceived that the hionour of the natiotsiseas concerned in ruain.- tausiing the sinking futid. However ridicuilous it might now steetn, lie issust say that in his opinion to the sinking fund we owed all' the advantages which wve had, and to it we mnuse look for any consider.. able dimninution of taxation. Th)eobjections urgedlagainst the sink- ing fund were nothinig, whien they considered tite fiucility whiich it lied afforded to the reduction of the 5 and 4 per cents. ; andi perhaps the time was riot far off when even the 3 per cents. imight be reduced, and then the country maiglit fairly look to a very great reduction of taxation. Mlr. NICHOLSON CALVERT tliouglitthemost advantageous taxes to redetee svere suchi as enhanced the 'rice of labouar. Air. PELHAM saiti i fe wod,w h were inaudlible in the gall'ery.-The quiestion being loudly called fr.- Air. MIlA BERLY' rose to apply. He di(I not t1tink the right honourable gentleman had dealt quite fairly by him in the answer which he hadl given to his (Mr. Alaberly's) statements. The right honlourable gentlemsan hiad stated that the unfundedt debt of Great Britain was, in 11116, 52,0(,0001(O. But it was clear that the fact was not so;, for the amiount was, in fhct, 49,939,0001. antI in all probability (though, not having the papers before him, lie could tint speak withi any certainty upon that subject) there would he foundI to have been a bialance fromi the preceding year, of uniused Exchequer bills. He unov begged to ask, what had been the actuial autn redeemned sinice 1819.)? WhIt, of uinfunded itebt 13,000, 0001. and of funded debt upwards of 9,500,0001. (Hear.) He w~ould paledge himself that thec papers whiich would in a few days be printed and put in the liands of isiemibers. would prove every statement that lie hiad mad!e respecting bothi the funded and the uinfundcd debt. It was, he tliouglht, impossible for the righit hoitourable gentleman to continLte the proposed reductiton of spiticithuties at 2s. 6d. per gallon in Ireland aiid Scotland, while it war. left at lOs. 6d. in England. Thui arrarigenietut might have hadl the eff'ect of decreasing illicit ill,s. tillationi in Ireland; but it had raised it up in-great vigouf in Scot.. land ; -nd indeed coiild any one, who was acquainted with tue Scot- t.ish people, so mutch dloubt their ingenuj,y, as not to feel convinced that wliile on one bank of the Tweed there was this duty of Os. li.. and an tho other one of 10s. Od., smuggling mnust pievaill fromn one end of the English boundarv to the other ? Adverting to what the right honourabie gentlenuan had said about spirit duties, he (MVr. . AIabrly) would confe:ss, that lie so far concurred witli him as to think that if high duties, were allowable at all, it was certainly ~in the ease of spirits that they were so. He would detain thie house no longer than wo observe, thatt thle vote of this night nusut at once de- cide the qutestin to persona out of doors ai to wlieLheror no theyhaill any chance watever of a remission of taxes, except ln_avery sUghit deg ree indeed unutil theyear1828. (Hear, and cries ofoquestion.) eErdl AlII TON then rose, amidst loud cries of question. He 5lilog~dfr nt hvin aniciate liabon. friend, but begged, thouh aterhis epl, t stae t th hose that lie would giv him votefor he sotl upo ths prncipe-tatlitouu heny chane tereexitedof'divig Mnisersto a gnrlrL lftxs was y voing n sio easios fo thgrepAI ofeeyp tiiu arxi Strangers were oIdered to Nvithdraw, and the gallery was cleared for a division; when the numbers were-for the motion, Ayes, 78; Noes, 171 i I Majority against the motion, 93. On our return we found the House going into a Committee for the farther consideratios of the report on the COUNTY COURTS BILL. MIr. SCARLETT, Lord ALTHOREP, Mr. BANKES, the ATTOIR. NI :Y GEWEIAL, and oilier lihon, Members made a few observa- d tiens upor parts of the biU l bukt the Confusion prevailing in the house 1 from the return of members who had gone out during the division, and the egress ofothers, prevented our hearing the purport with any degree of accuracy. Mr, SCAR1,BTT we understood to express a decided ohjection to ithe principle of that elause which vested tbe patronage arising from the appointment of 1 judicial assesvsors of counties, at a salary of' 8001. a year,in Chic Lr Cleaticellor. Ats these assessors were to bq barristers, he was apprehiusivc that ueh an arrangement might have, by pssibility, a serious influence cn the independence of Ihe bar. At tho Cainae time he (ir. Scarlete) did not mean at this stage to tske the sense of the house in any way upon the clause though he was anxious to p)ossess his noble friend (Lord Aklehorp) witht the grounds of lila bjection. On the clause being read for allowing attoriseys to act in thosc Courts_ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL- moved ii That no barristero attomey be permitted to practice in the said courts, as advocatesr. After a few words from lir. ScAscLETT, else SOL5C1TOR-1x3E NERAL, Lord ALwatousP, and Mr. PEEL, the motion was agreed to. After several otber clauses had beetn gone through, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, tbat as it was thene w lte (one o'clock), he would not press the compenSation clauses, the dhscussion of wibch might take some considerable time. He would therefore defer them to-ano her-evening. and move that the chairmanu do report Proeres, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. BRQOUGHA A begged to second the motion. He fully con- curred with his hon. and learned friend in thinking tlat that was too late an hour to discuss clauses of such imoortance; and the more r dily did be concur, as he vieweud the principle of the clauses with alarm- Why, the very readingofther,ames of the officers to whom cohpensation ws intended, would takeup a greaterlength of time than fmigtht be convenient for the housetosit. There wasa string of some fiveorsix dozen officers-Ch:ief Justices of the Courts of WVest- minSter, and other places- The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.-No, no; my honourable and leared friend is mistaken: the Chief Justices of the Courts at lVest- minster are not included. I5r. BROUGHA M.-I uriderstood, from he reading of some clauses, that they were; and also the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. (Hear, and auih-) TheS ATTORNEY-f3GENERAL.^_y learned friend is mis- taken- The names of those officers are not mentioned, nor is it intended that any compensation should be given to them. Iti5 inf tended that the claims of the several officers of the Courts at West- rSinster sliould be examined by a competent tribunal, and the Chief Justices and the Chief Baron are to be empowered to decide upon those dcaims, taking the average value of the fees for the ten pre- ceding vears. thart b. MM oubjel-It is not to the detail of the compensation, thRt I objecLanly fbjedtion is to the principle of compensation at all. ofcev ltatcd fsiend has mentioned the freehold rights of those tflice ` to their situations, and the justice of giving them compensa- thtOn or the injury done to their emoluments by this bill. Now I say a thevavelno right toany. As well might the freeholders of Eng- blnd cahil upon us, if we were now to propose the repeal of a corn Ilv whieh bad existed for several years, fo compensation to them- elves, and the mortgages of their estates w,ich they might have purchased lwithin that period. The claim would. I think, be jtlSt I as reasonable as the one now set up for those officers. I shall op- poseany such claim, and therefore T concur with my learned friend in postponing the clauses to a more fit time for their discussion. After a fewwords from Lord ALTrHORP and the ATToRrEY- GEnE1iAL, which were not audible in the gallery, b[Ir. SCARLETT gave notice, that in the further progress of the bill he would move a clause to exenmpt the courts of tiie County Pa- latine of Lancaster from its operation. The mnotion was then carried, and the Chairman having reported progress, obtained leave to sit again on Thursday. Thc other orders of the diay were then disposed of, and the housc adjourned at nALF-P.AST ONE O'CLOCR. A LIST OF THF, MINORITY Of 78, who voted on Mr. 11[aberly's Alotion for taking off the As- sessed 'Iaxes. Altborp, Vig. Davenport. D). loorc, Peter Stewart, W. (Ty- Anson, Hon. G. Folkestonie, Vis. Newp-rt. Sir.1 rune) Barrett .s. Mr. Grosvenor, Hois. OsbMrne, Led F. G.stunrt, Lord J. Beher,W.W. R. Palmer, C. Sykes, Daniel Bernal, t. Gordon. R. Palmer, c. F. Shelley, S r L. Birch. J. Heroni. Sir R. Pares. T. rTalbot, R. W. Brou1gham, H. Hollywood. W. P.Poyntz. W. S. Tatylor, Nb. A. B3right, El. Hobhouse. J. C. Pr-ce, P. Tynte. C. K. Bond., Hornby. F.. P'.rrman, J. 8. Towrnshend, Lord Caleraft, J. Howard, Lord H.Prohy, Hon. f;. L. C. Calvert, c. N. namnsay Sir- A. warre, James A. Carter. J. JameS, w.. Robarts, G. J. Western, C. C. Calulfield, Honj. li.Jervoi,c, G. P. Robinison, Sir G . Wbhitbread. S. C. Cavendish. C. C. Knight. R. rowvley, slrw. WVhithread, W. H. Chaloner, R. Lambton. J. G. Risell. L'.rd WV.Williams, Jo,hn Crddocir S. Leycester, It. Itiekford, W. Williams, 'r. P. De crespigniy, Sir NTaherly, W. L. Searlett, J. Williams. Wm. W. 7,arj.r ar:ks, S. Seott. J5. Wiznnzngtonx, sir .son, w. J. J Maxwell. J. Sefton, Fart of '1S. 'msn, T. M.ilton, Vi.. Smith, lI;n. R. Wood. M. ;J.2das, Hon. T. Mlonek J. B. Stanley, Lnrd Wrottesley, Sir J. Telr_y_sp Ti u IbSL . HnOUSE OF CONl,MONS, DIONDAY, lIUAY 11. nF.RRY CAI'HJiAliAb-