House Of Commons, Tuesday...
The Times, 1824-06-16T00:00:00

DIr. lVODEROUSEI withdrew inls notice or motIon Iur rle:Uig. to a select committee the p.etition of the magistrates of Norfolk! a-ainst hol.ling the Lent assizes for that county at Thetford.. REVERSAL OF ATTAINDERS. The LORD ADVOCATE brought up the report of the com. nittce on the bills for reversing the attainders of Lord Stafford, the Earl of MUar, Viscounts Fenmure and Strathallan, and Baron Nairn. The reports were received, and the bills were read a third time and pa'sed. SUPERANXUATION FUND BILL. Thc .c-port on the above bill was brousht up. After a few words .r.mn .',r. MovcE, wvho expressed his disapprobation of the mea- surc, and fro:n Mr. Buxtroir, who supporteoi it, the bill was order- ed to be read a third time tn-morrow. Sir J.A.1 ES i11ACINTOS1I said, that as he had two petitions tn prescr.t to that house that evening, it would, perhaps, be more concrnient for him to begin with that which related to an individual grks-im nc-,than with that which relateJ to a question of great national imapor:ance. The first petition which he had to present was rather a -p titia r in the [louse of Commons to the lenient indulgence of the lV-ar-otFoe. than . petition to the House of Commons for the exertion ofitt pro7er in a case where the exertion o' its power wasr.ot absolutely rcaled fGr. Itwastltepetitionofanintlividualnamed Robert Bell. hrn s-ated, that 25 years ago he had become surety for one Jamei W'Wrkman, vwho was then appointed Paymaster to a regiment in his Maje:ty'asser-ice. SIr. Workmanwas reduced in thle year 1600, oat afterwards did several things which attracted much attention to him at the ti-ne, and made him rather a notorious character. In- deed. he t Jir 3. 1-cirntosh) had beetn counsel for him in a case w-'ich uss tried before Lord Eldon. when he was Chief Justice oKfthe Common Pleas, and which created some little noise at t'j. tinie, from the extraordinary circumstances of it. It was an ac- ti* r brought bv MIr. Worktnan against Colonel Dunlop, his com- rn-v4 iint offi.er. for having impuied to him disloyal opinions, whlich he had never held, much less expressed in public. He mentioned this fact for dhe purpose of showing, that if due diligence had been used at the time, Mr. WVorlkman must have been forthcom- ir:r to answer any charges that the Government might hare had against him. It somehow or other hIappened that bv sonle accidenr (and he was far from impputing blame to any quarTer), fo-r..and-twernty years passed away without any attempt having been made on the part of the Government to recover the ba. lances said to be due from l Ir. Workman; and it was not till the ecath of one of the sureties that notice was sent to his represenwatives, and also to .Ir. R. Bell, the surviving surety, to pay into the .hands of the Sank of England 1501. 4s. 6a., which sum, it Was stated, was due from Mir. WVorkman to the public. He did not mcan to sav, that in making a claim for half this cum upan a lr. Bzll, the Government were going beyond their lTitimate powers; but he v-as sure that the house woald unanimous.y agree that there was a great hardship in making a claim upon the surety, afier a lapse of 24 years had taught him to expect that all the ac- coxants of the party for whomn he had engazed were settled, atd had alsn deprived him of thechance of recovering back themoney which under such circumstances he might be called upon to advance. Ile rerietted that theie was no statute of limitation against the Govern- inent: lie trusted, however, that the same sense of justice which harl produced statutes of limitation against the claims of private in- diriluals, would be equaUv operative with regard co the claims of Government. He asked whether the greatest hardships might not comne upon individuals under the shape of strict legal right? (Cries of *: hear.") In this case he did not mean to deny that the Govern. mint hail a strict legal right to the money which they claimed; but he could not help thinking, that if the house should express a wish that that richt should not be enforced, the noble lord at the head of the War-ofice would desist from alI measures of rigour2 WRhich must be a% hateful to his rown feelings as they were in many instances r.e- cescarv to the security of the public. If there were any roles af ofll:e which compelled the noble lord to insist upon this claim, he thought that they must be unreasonable: and if they were unreason- able, he could see no harm in relaxing them in an instance where, thouzgh the law might require the payment of the deficiency, all the iustice of the case went entirely the other way. He then moved lb-t thd petition he brought up. Lord PAL MERS roN said, that he would state the circumstances of vt,is case very shortly, in order that the house might see that it w-s ne5t thac case of hardshin which the hon. and learned gentleman Lit described it to be. The petitioner, SMr. Bel, had become sareTv for fr. Paymaster WVorkman; and it was only in con- szqaicn,e of liis joining with another gentleman in a surety- bind thiat the pubie money had ever Aeen intrusted into that ps-Ton's hands. As it was therefore by their own voluntary a s.,ontar eous o_t that they had rendered themselves liable 'or 2ir. WVorkmnan's deficiencies, he did not see what reason they had to cornplain of being now caUed upon to make them geod. .Now Mlr. NVorkmnan ceased to act as paymaster in 1800, and -ad then rendered hLi accounts. Asy body who had heard the state. rmentof thehon.anditlerned gentleman would sutpose thatfiem the I year lw3 to the yeat 18N,nostephad been taken by Government to cxamine thosz accounts, or to make Ur. Workman's sureties cog- nizabl- for the errors whish they contained. Now, the revexse was tle fact. in the year 1808 Mr, 'Workman's accounts were examined. The result of that examination wa communicated to him imrnedi- ately. Abstracts efthe examnination wsere also sent to the agent of the cops- The agent of the corps,in return, applied to the War-office, fer information as to the residence of lir. Workman's eureties. That information the *V3aroffice communicated, and the agent then wrote to the sureties, informing them of the sum in w1ticen Mr. Workman ial left his accounts deficient. There was, therefore, no fault at- triburable to the WVar-office, for not having given thesureties the op. po-tunity of settling these accounts with their principal. These ac- cunts of S1r. Workman formed part of the arrears, which, owing to the multiplicitY of accounts accumulated dauring the war, and it was not ti.l very lately that they had again fallen under the notice of the departnaent ith which he had'the honotr of being connected. Upin fi.idinz them unsettled in 1824, he had, according to the rou- tine of his office, ordered them to be revised, andhadalso directedap. plicatioa for the balanceofthbcmto bemade tothesurdties. In conse- qncnce of certain rules whichlie hadlaiddownin his office with regard to the accounts of deceasel paymasters, 1,164L .vas struck cTf the claim which might havebeen made upon them, and the only c'aim for whicl they were now liable was 1501. With respect to the ixctrinC laid down by the hon. and learned gentlemnan, that public debtors were to be released from aU liability in cases where a coni- derable lapse of time had taken place without a demand being made upon theui,hC mustsat, that hesthought that thejusticeof thecase was quite the oher wray; instead of claiming a remisionef tha debt, they ought to be thankful that ther were not called upon toepy in- trmest upol it. In conclasion, he contended that thiscasedid not <,--Lre the interference of the house, and that it was one in which lh_ s!iould notbejustified in takinany other course thanthat which lr. H{UMIE felt eat pleasure that this subject liad been taken n-i by bahon. andlarted fricnd, especially as the case which he 'ha Id before the house was only one of a-very numerous class of Fr-c7ance& He was of opinion that after the lapse of a certain n;.nber of years the Govemment ought tohave no stronger claim onaman's property than any of l.is private creditors. The noble lar ihad aaid that communication had been made in 1806 to Mr. W:-kman's suretici regardLng the deficiency in that individual's ac- counts. Would the noble lord undertake to say that such commu- n-DC3 ion ILd been received by the sureties, or to produce any answer frarathetaadmitting the rece-ipt ofit P (Hear.) The noble lord had likewite said that the sureties be ame so by ttheir own voluntary art He admitted it; but it ought not to be forgotten that they be- Caine .ureties underthe ideathat Government vould performits duty ia reaL.l:y overlooking the accounts of the party far whom .they ea;azred, andl in commtnunicating to them on the instant any de- fc_i:cies whiceh it ifitight ditcover ini thenm. Now, it appeUrd froM~ *he noble lord'ls bwn statement, ttbat 1r. IVorktinait gave in his ac- e-mats in 1800, and that nothing was said to the sureties about any d jli:iency in then tilLtha year 1808- How cme it, too, he woald ,k, that 16 years hiuL been allowed to-pan over in siiecns salce inst notice was said fo iave been given? He thought it was a grmtpeec5iaa on the part of the Government. to bring f.m-ward thisi clzai at this period 'n~ist the sureties, who, by the negligende, EGf II0wx4t, ha41o" otPimnty Zclbed4y biw NA a oir-. 'Overilig the moaney- of Air. Workmakn.- Mr.Wekma e ;.pre toAeiasotyafter the pec of 1801, and had Ihre isen to.the rank of 'Chief Justice of:New Orleani-a& si3atsotlof tmolunment,which would have enatbled himni to have repaMth sum riow claimed of hisa sureties. B e was sorry that hie did Dot seethe Chancelloiof the Exchequer in his plaice that evenings especeally aS that right bon. gent. hadi ac-ted witbh great liberalit to prwons in a similar situLation witMkhe present petitioner. He hdd himself pre- sented two petitions from individuals on whom a demand had been inade for arrears of legacy duty due in one case 28 years, and ini the other 32 years ago; -nd the consequence of thedaiscussloni which took place upon theme had been, that the right bon.gentbhad used klUinflt- ence to procure the issuing of a Treatsury minute, restrrctirng the recvey o al arers of Iea dttothose due since the year 1805. JJoTd PALMIERSTON.-heS deficiencieswere communirated to thie partyi in 1808. Mr. HOMlE aisserted that such C'ommunications hadl never been rmcivied by the parties to whom- they were' said to haLve ben 'de and that even supposig.thema to have been -receivedl, thynerha been followed upi by -any subsequenit proceedings. Bsds h transactions to which they referred h-ad their origin iniacunsfr nished in 1800, anrd founded upon a euiysge n1798.H therefore was of opiinta h olelr ol o obetter than .in followving the liea xmlwiilahensthmb isih boo. colLea-gue, andi'ritigthcaiwhhhdbenm e upon the peeuent pttoer. AMr.; H-. G URNY said a few words th~at were inaudible in the gallery.-The petition was tben brought. up; and laid upon the table. Sir J. MACHNTOSIi, in moving that the petition be printed, took occasion to observec, that he did not know whether- Mr. Work,man wasali,ve or dead at the presentmoTnent. From beiAghis counsexlihe knew thai Mlr. WVorkman wpas a man of c-onsiderable ta- lent; and hel derihteaetii!beetoiftnMrc the highestjudicial station xatNew Orleans.rndeedl,hecoDnsideredict Probable that Mfr. Workma~n snigbt be now alive, ss hie had received from him within tihelast two or threqe years aworkonAmericanlaw.He Itrusted thatt if he were alive, thne publicity usually givcn to the pro- ,ceedings othat house would mnake hiim acquainted with theclaimn owmade Upon his sureties, after the lapse of so r4ny ypr;. The etiionwasthen ordered to bepitd SLAVE TRADE. M5r. Secretary CANLNING laid on the table certain pagper rela- tive to the slave trade, and the communications which had been made by this country regarding it to foreign powers. On his mo- .tion they were ordered to he printed. 11r.BROUGHA111 said th%t itwas 35itlhgreatgriefand disappoinit- ment that he had heard from, sources of private information on which he could implicitly rely,-.and he had nl9 doubt that it would be witlh noi less grief and disappointnment that the house nnd& the rightbhonourable secretary wouid hear,-tbat the slavre trade was carried on ha the ports of France with as great vigour as it was ever carried on in this countryv before its alboltion,~ or before Fr Nce DrEPENDENtpCE OF SOUMCI AMERICA. Sir J. MIACINTOSH said that he fiad another petition to pregent, from the merchants of London engaged in trade with the pountries in America formerly under ~he domainion of Spain. The prayer of the petition was, that the house wouId adopt such metasures as to its wisdom mighit seemn fit, to promote thev immnediate recognition of the independence of such of the stateg of South America as had de~ facto established the same. Before .he i;ntered into the subject matter of thze petition, he wouldc take the libertyo~f saying a few words regaraing the number and character of those' wh haLd signed it, ra signed by 117 merchants, of whom all were meam,- her of very cnoniderable firms in the city. rndeed, lie might con- sider the petition ats conveying the wishes of 300 merchant-s engaged in various commercial speculations with the various countrieS in South ~America that wereformerly under theprotection ofteeCrown of Spain. Of the Trank cf the petitioners he coDuld only judge from commnon re- port andl information; but his belief was, that among them there were several of the mnoat eminent mercantile chiaracters of the age. He saw uponi the list of signatuies, the names of the firm of flarng Brothers and Companv....ifirtn which, without offence to any, might be placed at the very head of the comimerce of the world; and, be- sides these, the list contained the names of Goldsmnith, Berries, and Borradaile; Mr. Mlontefiore, Mfr. Benjamin Sbaw (the Chairman of Lloyd's), and a varieti of otherpersops-all, from their characters nio leiss than from their 'i'ealth and station, entitled to the gonsider- ation of mninisters and of the house If it had been his ihtention to enter fully into thevastandm.menstoiis question to which thepetitioni reae,h ol aecoe oeteoDruiyfrrnm that question forward. At prescrit,it was by no mneans his wishi to do thisq, hut merelyto afFordan opportunityfor satisfying tbepubliemzindaupon the subject, whichi -was an-xious that the so$sion should Not c lose without so muich of explanation upon it as mfight be consistent with general interest. For attainine this object, the presentation of the petition formed an occasion peculiarly. convenient. It precluded even the appearance of discoasing time question adlversely, or with reference to the past policy by which ministers had been guidled upon it. The presentation of snch a petition could neither be ronstrued into a complaint, nor followed by any specific motion. In fact, i; 'could only, seem to be what it was;-a mode of conveying thec sentiments of a most respertable body of men, deeply interested in the disposition oF the subject, anti, from their rank as well as their numbers, well worthy the attentive hearing of Parliament; and, in bringing the petition forward, (the hon. and learned member conlinueil), he hioped he shiould have credit from the l;onse for basing done no more thain his duty. He confessed, as he always had confessd, and as hie always should confess, that lie was aL member of a party; but he p,roposed turning this petition to noparty vi*wor service. Be meant tous the petition in no way whichi shouldl imply censuire or crimi. nation. It was rot bast~ or sweepinog in its tone, or sweeping in its o~bject: it only prayed t erecognition of those states of South 4me- rica which hadL actually gained their independence. The word"1 im-. mediate," indeed4, - p'peared in the document, and it was the onily word in it that he (Str.3. M1acintosh) would have feIt disposed to omit; hut then the word was used in A reaonabple sense, and was intended only to protest against tedious or unnecessary delay. At whatever time, however, and under whatever circpimstanca the question might have been introduceil, he should not have felt himself bounrd to take a very different line from that which hie meant to take at present. 'in looking over the State Pa- pe~rs which would formn the ground of that which he had to sutb- mit befo?e tie house, he found very little to blame or regret, ex- cept it were some passages in which coo much forbearance. seemed to be shiown towards the feelings and pretensions Of Spain ; and, on the othier hand, it was impossible notto declare that those documents contained the soundest possible principles of policy and public law, expessd wth ucha frmnss,cicumspection, and dignity, as mad thm wrth tobe reaed s mste-picesintheir peculiar ordr o copostio. Tos paers ase hd sidalready would for th chef oudaton f wat e ad to tate before ithe house; bat he must he excused if,i the first instance, he endea- voured to correct one or two msakes into which gentlemea bad fallen. It had so happened-he confessed he was surprised at it-- that.individuals extremiely well informed upon most points, had fallen, upon the present question, into extreme misconception and confusiont; and the house would therefore pardon him if, before he proceeded to quote the priiited documents, he briefly stated those imaxims of public law and policy whichb, in his view, ought pro- perly to regulate it. The word ";recognition," then, which had un- fortunately been introduced into this question,-that word had two significations,. perf'ectly difterent from each other; and, one of the confusion of those significationg, all -the blindness and mistake whichi appearced to exist uipon the question had arisca. The first and the true meaning of the word. " recognition," used as a technical term of international law, was one upon which, where it was introduced, preat practical consequences de- pended. It was the recognition of the ind4,endence of any counry y astae frmely xerisig authority over it--a re- cogitin wichit adbee th fae o Sain tomake mnore frequent- ly tan ny thercoutry andmos unappily (as in the instainces of Prtual nd ollnd)ver frquetljy to refuse. Thiis recogni- tio wa th reogntio whch,he assorry to say, England kad hadto aketo he nied tats o 4mrca-not that be maeant he was sorry fort te idenence of thsec Statsu thtbe regretted themode inw whch ita een attained; he wasryhta connexion had been terminated only by a breach betente wPwrs,wbich mighit have endedamnicably, audmore beneticily byconsequences, to both. This "~recognition" umoatnted to a renucition of sove- reignty by the older state.-leaving the new one in a perfect and in- violable conaition of independence; but tkis senise of the word "1re- cognition" was widely different from that which applied to the ques.. tdon before thiehouse, and whichk amountedI to no more thatn a decla- ration by England, that she, a state foreign to Spanish America as to Spain, having no claim. of sov;reignty or authority of atny de- scrptin t reoune-tat he-heindependence of the states realy fee n Spnis Amrica beng ustas per f'ert and complete witoutherrecgniionof hei inepedece as with it-,that she woud ekeaplin racicl masue, erly dmitig theindepend- enc ofthoesttesforheprpoeofholingtheameoneniences of intrcors wih hemwhch hehadhed ude thseancient overn- ment3-thatshe,for common advantage~andberefitofbothi,wouetdtr4sat them asadmittedintothe great3ocietyofindependentnations.Nowtbia was no waver of rights on our part,-no gift or boon confterred upon the foreign state. We gave the colonies no aid by it. We e3cpressed no approbation of the means by which they had attained their free- dom-a question upon which we had no tight to express an opinion one way or the other ; nor were we'asked to do so. Such a measure was no ratification of anv revolt; it was n o avowal whether the. states, in what they bad (Tone, were w~ronig or right ; it was merely dealingwith them as governments actuallypossessingau'horityover vasttracts ofland, and ina certain quarteroftehegloh~e. He(SirJ.Mac- intosh) woiuld not have troubled the house upon points so perfectly obvious, but that be felt that some striong minds had becn fiiistalcen upon them. Because, here,.a mo6timnportant distinction presented Itself between the two des-criptions of recognition. Ouir recognition of the independence of the United Statesbhad been the givin an ad- vantage to the party whom we recognized; but, in e-stablihn i plomatic rela(tons with Spanish America, Englndimelyaac forthogea'eral,convenienceofherselfandL .fhetrd,stngu that means 6f arrangement which custom had sont ebnfca co countries having 6~mmercial intercourse with each oshber, as prvdin.g frteamnicable' adjustmnent of casual differences, wih mght else break Out into' dispute -and war. This was the. prnileuo which, diplomatic relations between wcoutriswm funded and it was a principle just as ap- plicabjle to new governmnents as to old. The point for statesmen o look at and cnount upon, was not the advantage of the country re. coguized, but of their own; and the house would see in a inoment that all practice, allprecedent, supported-this view of the ca. And first, to take the. instance of Holnd. The States-general of the United Provisces, after a previous revolt of 15 years against Spain, had declared themselves independent in the year 1581. This was immediately after the atrociousnnurderof the first Prince of Orange, who was assassinated by an individual stimulated by political fana- ticism-the family of that individual, to the eternal sbame of the government concerned-his father having - actually been enno- blcd in reward of the murder which he committed. In the year however 1681, the United Provinces had been declared indepen-' dent; and it was not until the year 1648, at the treaty of Westpha- lia, 67 years afterwards, that the pride ind obstinacy of Spain had permitted her to acknowledge their independence. But did the house elieve that.allEBurope during that period had looked on, and quiet- ly consented to forego all the advantages_ of amicable intercouse vrith that rising republic fIolland ?-tbat the-world had chosen to ive up aUl the gain to be derived from a diplomatic intercourse with nier, because Spaiit had notchosentoacnowledgeherindependenceP No,' all Europe 'had not only sent amb.asadors to the iague, and received amnbassadors -in return; but the grester State. had entered into treaties of aUliance, offenive and .defensive with the Duch: all lad done this' with the exception of a German branch of the lmuse .of'Austria, which some attachments to the reigning family in Spain' had induced to.hcld ofF: with that single exception, not i state in Europe but had felt an alliance with trie Dutch as important to. the maintenance of the federal' system of' policyo: -The.thingcame home te us: e 'wereourselves concerned r'it' Epaland (icing at maac&wi.h'.p4n). had niintiined diplo- nt'a:ic rraoepnts with.' llland'forty.years before Spain ackno v- ledgedseriindepemdeti.ee lrin a treaty with' Spaiu pendingthe in- terv21l,.'E;rla~nd: hsci refused to>-wklsdrav- the- aluwledgment w'vet;uh7 as tbai y;r-ytsmae .sli,4 Uf th, Sb'eiX Aiarquis ''soJ A"t L0''-ea Of a 18Mnish army', in the Nether. latids; An. the ~paalh Mtinister, in d4espatches was usrd to speak: of tbe!Dutch, a the King his master'st '1rebels." The next Instance whichb he w'su]d caIl thle attention Of the hGuse to, Was a striking one. Thae reolit f Prtugal against Spainbhad occurred in the year 1640. The Certio'bed then been called to establish the House of Bragauzxaun-the tbijone, but neverbhad been called by the ,House of Braganza to assist in govemning the.country. In the year .1641-,only one year afterwards..a treaty had been conicluded boe- tween Forrtugal and this .&ontrk,_ this being-" years before the independence 'of Portugal had been recognizedl by Spain; But I~ bsoth these cases the intent was obviou*; the recognition wag intent. ed for ourselves, not for the countries which we acknuowledged;i wa o t the avaniage of Holland or Portugal that wehbadlooke, butwebad dons what wasL coniceired to be for the interest of Eng- land.- To put another instance: During the protectorship of ~Crom- well, all the princes of Europe had sent ministers to London, Thev'had sent these ministerst; thus recognizing the Republic and the lrotector;- and.7et no parftian of Charles 11. had ever after. wards protested against that courst, or agtainst treaties signed unde-r it; because, in, face, those- treaties andl arrangements hsa been ras- nifestly for the -advantage of all parties. Thes who mad te had pronounced no opinion upon the claims of Charles II. They hafnt interfered' iii the political dW'erenceg in England, bat they h gd felt *nevesity for keeping up their intercourse with her. Those treaties had niot been mnade to serve England the republic; but for the sake of the countries-themnselves who madle them witb her. The case had beets a widely different one, when James IIL,after his abdi- c ati power no kolenger bv Louis XIV. There the recognition was itapwe ologr-i existence. It was the setting; up of a partiMuar claiai, iiot the icquiescence in an existing Authority. The recopitilte, say of an usurper-that was, of the government admi- nifitertd by haim-could'be no offence against themnost just claimant;, while, onthieother hand, thereognitionof the most equitable claim,. noJonger h6jdag power, was an iront to the overumenti:ctuallv in possesion. Thelitstrpositipnipf Franice in our dispute with America presenteaitselftosomepersonsiscssueslmilqr to the resent.iutthat wasto thosepostts who lookedaonly atthe irfce pboth questions- the capes werewidely, estentilly, decidedly different, It was sup.. posed that the offence taken by England oan that occasion had been at the eart0lishment by France 6f diploniatic communications: not so; France had' con'clidqa a treaity of amilty; there had been a treaty entered into ofensivecan4'aefbnsive, Th0 IAiarquis Botii14e-_ this appeAred fronm a late -publiction of that noblemian's memnoirs-. it appeared thait he-had been appointed Governor of Mlartinique in the year 1768. toearrTyasthis,'it had been part of his instructions from France, to watch the rising disafl'eetions in- North Ame- rica--to foment tbom as far as he could, without hazarding of- fence lo En)glanad.. and:- to' form such alliances in the country as circumstances might admit of. 'Vie might be told, perhiaps, of our ton berconUcte wIt repect to the Caraccas; but, at that time, it was to e rcolectd; ngl*ss4 h4d been at 'war with Spain: these pro- ceedings by Fance with. re'gard t'o'jiaeifea "h id been - taken in a perod f pafondpeice. For these reasons, the honourable and landgnlman continued, he held t'he case of F-rance and the United States of America altogether foreign from the present; an~6 having dwelt so long upoin the principle of the question, he would now come to. the printed doepments-tbs stAte papers before the house 'lie said ntothting with reference to what should be donle with ruspect to Sp;anish imeilca, of the statute the 3d Geo. IV., which certainly treated the late Spanish possessions in that couantry as 4k fiacto separated from Spain; thaut samne statatte givig te sips f tosecoloiesthesame privilege, under the avigtioaact,whic wer allwedto the vessel of other indpeogotcotrjs.-ths lein ~virtuallacknowledgment of itslfaloe,hat~hse taes er inepndet.He would not remind thehoue, hatin he ea 182, otie hd bengiven to Spain that conulswold e staliheditsthir ors; ordid he blame the suspension of thait purpose subosequenty ata ime when Spain her. self had been attwlecl by ani invasion mrlawless and shiameless- than it had fallen to the lot of modemn times, in any other instance, to witness. Feeling in fact, in.commion with those about himn, the si. t.tiaton'ip Which'9p~in w#* placed, and hLow unworthy it would be at such a moment by the smiallest act to add to her difficulty, or di. vi'de her attention he (Sir J. Ilfacintosh) had refused at that time to present petitions ?or the acknowledlgmenE of the South American in- e~denHe wuld ay nohinguponthese points, however fully it as ompten tohimto nfe frm tem,bar asregarded the 'sir- tualpartof he aranemen, wehadadmitedwhat the hiresent pettondesredalead; bt h woldtake the mse upon the shoingof hs sttg apes hemelvs,with very litttle comment, as t soo beoreth hose.Th fistdocument, then, which he w*uldzefer to, was that quoted as a desath,of the 31st of Mlarch, 18'23, from Air. Secretary Cannin toSi Charles Stuart, in which anopinio was distinctdy expressed, tha "time and the course of evets ha substantially decided the separation of the colon-les from the inother country; although the formal recognition of thrse -pro- vinces, as independent states, by His Majesty,niight be hastened or retardedby TArious external circumstances, as~ well as by the more or less satisfactory progress, in each state, towards a regular and settled -form of government."1 Now this was, as decided as pousible a contrast to the conduxct of the French in the course of our ownAmerican watr. During the whole term that had preceded the alliance of Frnce with the United States, the most solemn as. surARCes had repeatedly been given to England, thAt France would in no way .participate iza the contest. Hie merely pointed this out as afarthgr illustration of the decWd4 diflerence between our situ- ation at the time of the American war, and the condition in which Spain (as regarded our interference) stood, or was likety to stand. I he next paper was the conference of the 9th of October, 18,23, be. tween Mir. Secretary Canning and PrInce[ Polignc ad thouh every member in the house had, no doubt, read althese papers, yet, from some cause or other, there did seem to be a most stranage misunderstanding as to their effhcts, The British Govfern- ment according to the termns of this paper, in the statement made by iAir. Secretary Csiming-'~The British (5overnment were of opinion, that Any attempt to bring Spanish Amierica again under its ancientasubmission toSpaini iust be utterly'hopeless; that allnego- tiation for tbat. purpose*wouldabe unsuccessful; and that the prolon- gation or renewal of war for the sainceobject would be only awaste of human life, and an ifictiontof calamity on both parties, tono end."1 Farther, the linglish Government, after, with a disinterestedness which was almost too jiudicious to be called generous, but which was a generosity, nevertheless, exhibited in stite negotiations far less frequently iban might be desired-after disclaimuing every deisire to profit either in the way of -possessioii, or of exclusive traffic, by the Spaniish coloniest, and even desiring that the recognition of independence should come first from Spain herself, went on to state the ustrigts ad apreensins f GeatBritain, in a way whichi coud laveSpan -o ecus fo ben~surprisea at any measure whic we ightnow a orthe eco titon of the independence of thee clones urslvp ;- Tht, ompetely convinced that the ancint ystm o th colnie cold,notbe Testored, the Britisth Govenmet cold ot eterintoanystipulationa binding itself either to refuse o to delay its reontnofhirnd n. ence. Thattbe Briis Gvrmnhanodseto eiitte that recoghiJon, so long as there was an esubecance of an accommodation with the mother conr,b whc such a recognition rmight come first from Span uthti ol not wait inidefinitely for that result; that it could not consent to make its recognition of' the new states dependent uponl that of Spain; and that it would consider any foreign interfer.. ence, by force or br menace, in the dispute between Spain and the colonies, as a motive for recognizing the latter without delay." Theit,referring to these very declarations, he would ask whether some recent proceedings did not amoaut pretty nearly to that inter- ference by " menacee" which England at once stated would compel her to act P To proceed, however, witlh these paragraphs, which he avowed he took pleasure in reading, because they contained truths and prinpiples which, though long advocated by the wise and philo- sophic, were but too seldom. found proceeding from the mouths of thpomatists and statesmen, It so happened, a-nd he was proud to indl it to, that a vasit portion of those same rnin lea and feelings bed been embodied in the admiablespeecho the ~'eient of the United States; and it was a curious fact that the doctrines of the two English commaonwealths--for he delighted to couple England and America hr thatt name-that they should have conceded as far almost aswa 'baile, the dilference of their situation and local in- ttrests consi1dere.7 One thing peculiaryly he was pleased to ace Eng- latidandAmnerica agreing intowit,thatin casea contest tookplatce between Spaliaand hercoilolnies,that wasa contest which, notatf'ect. iog their securityr, would not give either of them a right to interfere. But whiIe ho agreed in that feeling, its reparded our own coun- try, most fully, and disclaimed every desire, whble Spain alone was concerned, to interfere, yet if' Spain was to be made aL fang of the Holy Alliance-if that wild beast was to use Spain as its fang to pierce the heart of America--if it wan to use Spain for the purpose of sTresdin~ its detestable influence and principles on the othe siet h tlatic, as it hacl already, in so gre-at a degree, extended them on this side; then, he hope to see Eng tsh influtence resisting- its elYQtrt in America, as English principle was re- sisting its' progres in Europe; and he would venture to deeltre, that such must be the case. The objects at that horrble faction -were- counteracted ineeyqater, at the very passing maoment by this couintry. Adhdifilybelieve, thatif ny ileslse,'ny nfauatd bgot cold o fundwilling noticn that passage in the declaaon fEgldwhc clalimed frte trade wvith South Amecafohrsl and all rho world, proceeded to comment upoat the letter of the Count Ofariaof the2fth of December, 1823, which -proposed that England should accede tQ a conference at Paris, the obje-ct of which was to enable the Xing oIf'Spain to re-etatblisli his legitimate poweCr; that was, in other words, to dispensi the same, blessings to the South American colonists abroad,whioh he was alreadly bestowing sot freely upon ten millions of his own suboject at home-The reply to thattro- posalbad been a Rt one.-an absolute rej'ection of it-at rejection which ever ma utfeel did England honour, and which the wouldl haebeen disgaced had she hesitated in gving; that rejeto being coupled with arepetition of the principrlesoriginallylhid down by rat country as what would guide her conduct towards Spain, and an assurance that sbe was still prepared to abide..by_ them. In this Yeply there were some passages so excellent, that he could not forbear from pausing to quote them to the house. The English Gsemmenthad declared its desirethatthemo- ther country should take thelead in recognizing the independence of her colonies; sid this might have been desuable, not merely for Itie security of the states themselves, but also to spare the little re. mains of digit ydifficult it was to determine how little-thitstill beloRgedtithething that-wascalledtheCrownof Spain. But tiele(ter wentonthus:-"But itappearnmanifestto the British Governrment, that if so large a portion of the globe should remain much longer with- outanyrecognazidpoliticalexistence,oranydefinitepoliticalconnexion with the established Governments of Europe, the consequences of suchistate of thingsrmust be atonce most enmbarrassing to those Governments, and most injirious to the interests of all European nations." There wu another hssge and but another, which he woutld lay before the house; althoughhe wished he had nothingelse to do bet to read such admirable compositions, and abstain from stating his own opinions, in his own peor language. That passage ran thug:-_" The British Government have no desire to ancddpate Spain issi that uteoption. -On the contrary it is on every account | their ;sh, that hm Catholic Maijesty should have the grace and the advantage of leading the iway in that recognition, among the Powers of Europe. But the Court of Mladrid must be aware, that the dis. cretion of His Majest% in this respect cannot' be indefinitely bound up by that,of His Cat olic Majesty; and that even before many months elapse, the dsire now sncerely felt by the British Govern.' mnit, to leanve this precedency to Spain, may be overborne by con- siderations of a more comprehensive nature,-considerations regard; ing notonlT the essentialnterests ofHis Miajest 'ssubject, but the relation40of the old world, with the new." This was a passage which required3no'conment: it spoke, in- most distinct -terns, the ttateim ihichi the official publiedocurnentsapofthe Governrment had Ieft;:tJ,is question.'~ Of what,. had .151cc' ,j,as4ed' he could not speak ftonit-Aitrit-y. ' Runuours .amoagg"-- intelligent per, ~~e~fsls'tsa a rpoiol'bM ctn ~is:jan : .J. . 'withw .ro4:.,,W..:.. specteosothAierjc.It a los i,h ttmj on t" tted a congres, at thickt all the other allied Powers h'ad agreed ,to be present, fer the purpose Of coiiferrng on S6uth -ArneTiw can affaims He had likewise heart], but he did not pretend to state it on any authority, (though he must s~till belevre it. because it was in unison with the conduct previously puravd,)thatEngland wasstil England in this respect-that she hadl disclaimed aniy intettierence witth atHoly or Unholy Alliance-.that.she wouldhave nothing to do with their proceedings.. Would toGoEdshe-hadaso acted lil along! WVould to God sbehRd never entered into any of their conspiracies I ~Wousld to. God'-she bad protested, by ber absence and by her sir Ietic4ig~in t thebmcinations of that numherous and Powerful body of~oentteswhohad assembled at Verona. and the iWect of whose Thti~ii. eer jst and honest man must deplore! (Hear.) He migh~~ o tis,another declaration which hiad reached his ears, butwlit~he ad otseen in writing...namemy, that so long as Span ~zjinue tobe a pr-ovince of France-, so long as That couintry was orcutsiby a French forece, everv naval armamient thatle'fther ports-w6 beviewed as partaking of aFrench character. Spain, to use- his"'iw words, as utteredl on another occasion, was a -mere fang&sa thb Holy Alliance, by which they hoped successfiuly to attack South America, to pierce her heart, to plant a wound in her bosom, though armed in -three-fold steel. If he understood those ekcellent papers...and he mlust be cxtremely dull if he did not, for they wete very perspicuous, and( he had applied himself most sedu- Iouslto themj was admitted, that the acknowledgment of inde.~ penenc wa nobrachof eutaliy,and coDuld not be eonside*ed as ivi~ay~aseofofectoSa; that the offices of good ~faih,o god- nighourood,andof isiterested friendship to. ward span hd ben carie to he stmeserge; that in the con- sidraiono?he uetion,Spn was to be put out of this case alto. gethr; sdas hiscountrynad declined, whien called on, to become a prtytote HlyAlliance, the principles thus laid down could notbe ltced y te determination of that Congress, -andi still iris by h nevnino anay particular Power. Any attempt to inter- fere uner tic cicumtanes;by any of t'hose ccntinent~al Powers,! or ine,h lodcosdra an act of flagant injustice towards any sate-t would beanato folly or i'nsanity to interf'ere with a povwer as formidal asEnld wouldI be,if attackedl on this groused -inamtly, because any oe,o combination ofpowers,m migt con. ceiv offnce,forsoth,if se, itin s her commercial interests .dicate, aderig totheestablished eustom -of . Europe;' and o te gnera la ofnations, pursued-,a course not con. formblewit ther wshc. Ile threw o-ut - of this chape, then, 'wih dsdan ad idignation, all idea of the Holy or Unholy, Al- liace resmin tointerfere with the lpolicy of this country. (Hdar.) Havng aidthi, wat,be ske, rruinedt? ..The mere question '~ hyi nt te masre f rconitonresortedl to now?" When heldotedtewor'ino," hdidnt usitin its metaphysical sense, for smeasericutherwasnoime reset-thatall time was pa st or futue.Whnhesid now,hemenrathat timewithsb wicballne ce~ prprtoscultemaeo the adoptiottofthe newpolicy. Flea ke tns qeston, ot ostlel, btin the spirit and temper in wich e b~an hisdiscssin; ernetly desiring that a fair and disassonae dscusio ofthesubectshuld occurbefore the risinig of arlamet, or hepuirpose o satisyn that most respectable bodyof ersns heierebauts of thtis country; who were deeply in. terstd n te etrraination of Govemnment. Commissioners, as 'wel a Cosul,hd, it appeared arrived in South America. The Coonisionr.fom hecity of ]Lndon had arrived at -Colombis, and ad een ecevedby the Vice-President -of that re- pubi ihmre distinction. To prove this. he aeed onl appeal to the speech delivered by Colonel Hamiilton to Santanrer, the respectable Vice-Presfident of the republic. He would not quibble about the exactness of the translations; and his own Itnowleage of Syanish was, perhaps, no0t so great as to enable him, if the origmnal document were before him, to mnake a perfectly fautitee one. But he took the whole meaning of the bu%siness to be, that in the overflow of kindness and of courtesyr which was usual on such occasions, the Government of Coloimbit was solicitous, and En land was solicitous, to find the situatio of affairs such as would enable the pasties to ' open a friend1ly communication with each other; and that point he would press no farther. Two conditions it seemed, were laid down by this Govemnment, as connected ai~h the reconitionofiniepensdence, butthoss conditions had no reference particuilarlyto Spain, or to any: other country under Heaven. Theyr were framecl in mere accord- ance with the policy of this country. The two conditions required' were both intimated in th e documents - and they had been stated in a speech delivered by the Earl of Liverpool, of which, if it were notirregular,hbewould say he hatd-been anecar-witness. The first coni- dition was, that the independence of no country should 'ae recog- niized, where 4 contest against the parent state was going on. The seconid condlition was, that it would not be proper to recognize inde- pendence, except where a stable and permanent Goverinment had beenecstablished. Now,with respect tothe first of these con3ditions, he wuldproosea dlem a; ot uchan extutordinarr one as was intodued sislae dbat byhishoourable and leirned friend (Mr Brughm),fro th hons f wichhis opponents found it impssile oesa~(a aug); ut neof a calmer and more ami- cabe ntur. T~y usseiter onsder Southi America as one great state, or as a boy of states, independent of the mother cou2try. It mnight be taken either way for the purpose of his argument. Supposing South America tobhafan-ned of various distinct states still those states were united by treaty against Spain, an.dagainst althose who supported lerpretensionL. His geogratphy or rather hig Tecollection, would, he feared, fail him, if he attemDted to state the numberof degrees of latitude and longituide whichex- tended over that empire, which was now formed into republics, and which was once an appendage to the Throne of8Spain. Buta tract ofcountryextendingfromCaliforniatoCape Homn,was, hethought, something like adescription of amoderate and respectable territory (alaugh). for thoge who wished to enjoy tho blessing of indepeR. dence (Hear.) Throughout that vast territory,wbAt Iosegsions-.. what-force had thes King ofSpain? He had alittle caeiln M1exico, a desert island in Chili, tindia small army which heldaa part of the province of Peru. (Hear.) What co'ld besld dof such iniefficient aleans of conquest? Were they really any tbing %hat approached to that equality of conquest, which could leave the .issue in the' slig'htest degree of reasonable uncertainty, IuZpposing no other parties hut Spasin antd America wee engge? (Hear.) He always put the proposition in that form-, because, if any osherpower steppe&in to the assistance of Spain, a new case, ac- cordinig to these documents would be created, which would authior- ize the interference of England. Then, he asked, 'what obj'ection could there be to a recognition of the respectable republic of Colom. his; in which there was formerly a great Spanish army, on whose plains the only vigorous, effort was made to recover the colonies...nn efF'oxt whichi completely failed; every Spanish soldier having been driven from the country, or destroyed by his opponents? (Hear.) Three times had the legislature of that republic assembled, since the forces of Spainl were expelled from her fertile shores. (Hlear.) Had -notColomnbia, by the resignation of Bolivar, been put to the same test as America 'was, by the resignation of lwshington ? In each case, did it not show that the republic no longer needed the protecting hand of its founder? Did it not prove, that the Govern- menit 'was fixed oat so solidl a basis, that aniy individual, however highly gifted, mlight be spared ? He would ask, what wsthe situation of the republic of Buenos Ayres? No Spaniish soldier had been there for 10 years, andl 14 years had elapsed since that state declareaits independence. A Spanish soldier was now nio more to he found there, than a jacobin was at this day to be discovered in Great Bri'tain. lHe had perused with much pleasure awork on Chili, which was'written bya lady. It contaLin.. ed much beautifgl description, and much eactie observation on the state of that country. He alluded to the Journaslof. Mrs. Graham, which at once wafted any person who read it into the heart of that country, and placed him in possssion of every detail that was ne- cessary for a perfect knowledge of it. Tute desceription she gave of the happiness of thte people, and the regulartty of the Go- vernment, was extremely pleasing. If these things were true, what objection could be raiised against applying the principle of the recognition of independence to these countries, which were in a set- tled state? He knew of none;, and he couldl not sees how any gentleman on the other side of the house could- withhold that re- cognition; for here there was no contest, and here a firm Govern- ment had been established. The papers on their table said that this country would recognize those states that had achieved their independence. Surely titose couintries were perfectly independent. Take the whole of these states as one great confederacy, then he would say the entire force poassessed by Spain in Southi America Was too frivolou'sto carry on the contest; ana if taken separately, theat, he would say, that Government, by their own wordst, were bound to recognize several of those states as perfectly independent, and entirely freed even from the shadow ofa hostile force. Hfe now came to the second condition-namely, "1That we ought to delay our recognition until those countries are not only independent but tran- quil." There were two weights and two measures, it ppeared 2 for urope and America Spain was recognized, although it wAsneither independent nor tranqui.- This country h*dAnambassadlor at.Ma. dridwlhile the Frencharmy was in possession of the country. This continuance of the Frencli army, then, would, he knew, be defended on the ground of its being a violation of humanity to withdraw it from Spain. Gentlemen would argue that the presenoc of that army was necessary to prevent the tactious front cutting each otheres throats, anc4 he did believe that the bigots there would wiiling- Iy maurder every humau being who did not exactly enter into their views; that they would, if possible, carry inte efrect the most bloody and uinbmAnded proscription; that they woutld exterminate every person and raze evelry institution,notonly that wasliberal but that was moderate. With that couintry thus deplorably situated,we however, maintained our relations. lBut when South America waa mentioned, when England was called upon to recognize her ind4epen- dence thoe inautreubhcwereskedto COme gktopn%et a state of legilatve prfetion atwas equr~dthat the inost difficult of hun. man robems "lbery," houdl~-sovediii a nioment. (Hear.) We,whotok aes o stal~ih ur wnliberty-who had lavished our loo andourtresurein ormig sd sstaining a free constitu- sio-.w wo hd uffreduner hebrualtyrannyoffHenry VIII. -who had seen Protestants persecutedb Calnolacs in the reign of MVaijy, and who had seen Catholics persecute by Protestants in the reign ofElizibeth-we, who had kniown all t'hese mutations, would not pay common courtesy to infant states, because they wereliable to those changes andalterations, fromnwhich, if they were exempt, they wouldpresentaspectacle contrary to the ordinary lwaw whilchgoverned human nature. He called on his right hon. friend, if lie dteigned to listen to what he had said, to say, how he couldl suppoert such a proposition ? He called on him to state why this reco4nitionof in. d~epnd-ncec, by scnding out a diplo~matic arent, shouldl be rcfus~d, any proposition could be laid down,-short of that extremity,' in de- fence of the refusal, he was ignorant of it. If danger were appre- hended, why were consuls sent to South America? Why were commissioners sent there? On what principle were censals de- spatched there? On this principle, that if in individnal filling that situation made a complaint on the p;rt of an English merchant, it would be listened to arn might be redrescd. This presumption ex. tended to all the variety of factions that might be thre. It was to be preumed that they would act wisely-that they would caltivate our friendship-that thry wouled not o end one of the greatest rmari- time nations n the world. Such was the pyinciple in this case; and if' it were good and uscful, why not extend It to all other relati4ns ? Hlis right bonourale friend might see some difference between the appointment of diplomatic agents to establisbed- states and newly-formed governmentst Now he would contend that diplo. matic agents were more necessary in disturbed countries, that, in well.orderedcountries. In well-ordered countries, security was to be found in the etablished laws, and in the general refinement of society. In distarbed countries, wherethere was dangerofattack on personas and property, where private citcumstances might occur, which, if not properly treated, night lead to public-hossiity; diplo- maticcskill and scince was peculiarly necesary. lWhen retnon- strances, made to the Court ot Spain, relative to the injury sustained by a British subject at Rio Janeiro, preduced no effect,' it became the duty of-thisGovernment to -looktor redtess froni the authorities at Rio Janeiro. In doing so, undoubtedly this cotantry ought, in the' first instance, to bave allowed the comnion delay, necessary hbere an-application of that kind wasmade, and -to gire be-Spanish Go- vernment -an-opportunity of taking anysteps.thhtW-ri-li_ fti .feyonid this,,which was an sct of fairness and kindness this s uifty had no rngbigto go: ind it.*u more than Sp;an lbd' ht d'e ' masidi'ith refetesac t'the la' of saUon'at Iti t ht tsde- holi b pott 'by 6"u*aI,~ iia- esgor 1~Io ~tI but it wia far niorea hUuary, that,.Azbaeeaots be~ appiit~ to Pnre,et wars, v1sicb igt,b lJUIid, ntdd one, but' to eyer brashof onot ce If , ~d~ii was necitsryto Vt%da mnuafrhsre~~ certanly mbaador ivete equally.ne.Masry 'to watch vr ltfz rights andhtorestg.When lpouricould grant no Jidreas foIr iinju_ risinfliceden BflA ubtt,tbejroptr Icourse-ou.1dat0- pp to riwee Gvernments,wherevcY.o- however their au tho A . 'the Gotermeg ith whicijitwai formed, twsamr fIda Position on the part oqithe Goveemment apyn,fetl~ nize thei other...-it showed an unwillinnestbsowheOdny *hnoneiis of diploi6aiic intercoiurse on that state. -hrft,h ee 'would recominend such a curse. He beIieved'there wr 0c, houies Of trade in South America,; And' the hous sI,. fonnd bth tioersthiat- the orts of 1822amat bigan i One Year of 1,800O,0OOL They migi e from.- the' __ (one cerainly ofthe higbhst authbvity), that the Ixp"me o%f to ton gosfotte' port of LiverPOOl was greatly increasn bot tot North and SouthAmnerica; btitthe increase waslRtTo t than to North Amerima The amount-ofeexports to Dorth Amelica was 1,000,000L, to South America it*& wu 10o,ooW Thbe alue of this eomsner6v~ wiii ilt bonfined to EnlRdlei.IN u also participatedinllebenefitait Proue.O this3a;~ po1int hAea draw their attention' to the 'work Of a*Ptain Hall; which h` Posedmost of the gentlemen who hear him had peruseI tey had not, he-adcisied' themt -to read it as sonaspssbe Ifts an d;ij. dent. sloo,; the rea im rt*c of 'hi trade, toEglb ia-nd alo = Pe Ofgoutr=~aer1ca in civilizing thatEncantr,. zither a curious circtimstaice;- And he iu' say tht n pesonwas bPetter caIculated th'an Ciptai Hlll to seize upon mallpoins tht ocurrea in conversation,. or the.,c~s of spplingjthemIn llusratin o ayPrinciple. He rela't a con. verstio-whih, e hdeadetween A Ilsexic"an uWft~ an a SpaishRoalit. heRoylitasked him what obecitiO'he hadto theKin? Te mleterauswered, thiat 1e*asnnpoliticiah., He like theKingeu eoug, only he lived 6,00 leag'ues Offar~h sawno~reaon hy heyshould not have a King on th'e wt. 'lh R~oyalist next askd "What do you think- ~ -r f.. trad ?" ' I'll teUyo, said the muleteer....4 the.-abir I Wear -used to cost me nine dollars, now it ontly costs m two." ([[ear.) 'The improvei3ent from the southernpI to to the northern part of Mfexico prove,ta,tog oPrt cOfeChil bad been-benificial to the merc-hant, it was not altogether that self. IS~h benefit which could justify the slur that England loie pro,ted by it. LIk6 "1the quality of mercy," it was -twice bleseds,4"it blesed both ihe rwteiver and the giver. (Hear.) 'By creating n ew wants, itcerated also new faculties in toe human. nirnd to suppiy those wants. -Thus would, it ttskd to raisie -ths natives of South America from that state of barbaristn ignoraiiee`"d degwat4aeir i which they' had been plunged under tb SPAnishi 'Goyermerit, until finallythey became worthy of being the citizens Of free and enlight.. ened sftats. It was in vaLin to suPPo5e,if SPain cOuld ]by Posibilityre. sume her sway inSouthAmerica, thather policywould bemoreli~'-.N. W%hatever concession she might be inclined to make, with reap '. . freedomn of trade, in the first instance, ahe wouild speedily rj~ir That' which had cost her Americx ~was the absurd principle, that to exclude foreigners from the country was necessary to its existence under the Spanish swaw'. The sanmezprinciple still prevakiledl. No, later than.last xsummer the Royalist General, Cantarac, gave notiCe: to the'Captain of an English vessl on the soast of Mexico, that he would iraaisdiately pt the old coufizaction lawz of Spain in force against traders ; and he declared, that he would have done it before, but from a rmerci f feeling. England mnight be, and certainly was,, concerned in maintaining the present state of things in South Amne. rica, andink caryingon a tradewith those regions; butthe whole people of that irmmensie territory were equally, nay far more concerned Ia keepng p thse ea-eablle relations with us. Ther mnust al feel thebesft. f feetrade as much as the Mexicim 'muleteer, who exuhdinprocrinfor two dollars, a shirt for which he (9"P,ely (Aluh)He again reprated that, whiatever ind.lgence bpan mghtbe nduedto grant at thepresent moment as a boon,to thos wh -wuldassst eri the recovery of the colonies, or to pre- vent anyinterferene on the part ofindependent powers if she iuded, by some of ibeHoplyAlliance,etideavoued toirecover those colonies, tha inulenc, hatever it Might be, she would resume the mo- men b. obectwasattained. Hie had, he feared, trespassed too long on te tme f th hose,but be hbad carefully abstained fromn any- langagetha coildbe personally offensive to any hon. memnber. 11at hadargedtll'qeatonon general principles, andl stted his remson for aplauin ad approving those declarations inL the papera to fordelyl'1 ~rswnthe attention of the house. He'saw 'n xaso." thezecgritio ofthose states. Delay.wax naot aue to Spai; ad h woud sj' urter, that delay was calccitte to pro.. ducethoe vey dsturancs 'wichwe-. quotea as. ont-rasn. for witholdng hisrecgniion Th s dlY wOuld PrWnuee great mo- ralefect o th felngsan anon othoseGove,inmen*beca~se the mut nturll fel tat ieiowsubjects wAijld be encourmo whe thy sw teiraulrs nuaenaced and .sanctioned by the act offro sttes Th conexon etwenthe, old world andfthe- new was now at stake. The delay might be P.A injuriour, incuig lous and mnischief to Ezurope, with reference, to thle South Americam. states, as it might be troublesome and enebarrassing to the SouthL American Governments themsel,ves. If this Government cquntie nancedthem,as he thought they might do without any vfolation of the law,of nations-..doing it muildly and gently-..would it not dispose the people of %hat country to look to thle Government with respect, an hsaten the cessation of those disorderse which were stated as a reasn for not reoognizing them ? If,' on the other hand, they- wera--outlawod from the civilzed world, was there not a danger that- those people might be made that whichi they had been described to bs.-dawlosz and savage ? Woiald it not be the reans ofraising the-people againist their GovenmmentP -'ouldit not-be the means of raising up faction against faction, and martaooist mnan? Would it not produce those disordesrsthat must inevitably convect those countries from scenes of sdv'aneagandpr-ofit to sources of inconvenience and trouble to th. whoe ivlzed world? ([lear. hear.) They ought, then, to hasten this boon, and put an end to a state of things wbich they were not bound t6 prolong-which they had. noright to perpetuate merely to oblige his l1ost Catholic Majiesty Fern. dinaud the Seventh. The delay of this recognition wag ac'know.. ledyed not to be due to Spain. It weakened theftovernments abroad, and augmente disturbances and factions in South Amrerica.LI'I would not," said Sir James Macintosh, " be guilty- of a -breach of neutrality to serve America, nor of an act of in.justxce to serve the commerceOfEngla-~d; but I would do that which isconisitent with neutrality and withijustice while it would serve the commerce of England. I would convoliaxt?e the liberties of those South Americart itatesI would protect them from the legitimate, paternal sway of Ferdinand VII., sand rescue them from that sort of law and justice, that species of peace and order, which his restoration to authority has spread over the happy peninniulaof Spain." WUear, hear.) The petition was then brought up and read. Mfr. CANNIiNG was, unquestionably,, very far from-having sany thing to complain of in the cone or topics of his lion. and learned fried's speech; and if, in the observations ke should make on- that speech, and on the propositions his honenrable and learned friend had laid down, his address should, in point of extent, bear but a small proportion to the speecht of his hionour- able and learned friend. he would, he hopedl, consider it as in no degree implyin any tl;ing of offence at wlhat he stated, or of dis'. respect to hiisel personally. Butt his honourable and learned friend must be a~r,ta though, in the sta-e of what he (Mlr. Canning) might~ Ih'bleed, nlow denominate the Ilate Spanish Americant colonie~ there were commercial interests to be considered of the most impo4n an eiiaekinad-he must be aware, he repeated, as mud asayoehttere were also interests of ano- suere everyt odem,h te onfthepartofwhiscMa hesty asGo threerysot,ofd am dlctnauewthrsctowhich haest wasGo vernment mightroueeecshihewa convinced neither his honourable n I lArned freiend nor himself would wihh to see. He ut tlrfiore, in what he had to say-, rather restrain a DIispstion h. ,h have to follow his hon. -Ind learned friecad thouhmany ofhetpc he NAd introduced, and confine himself as much as posibj totesateent of facts, with no other'quaUl. catin o srumet but what was necessary, for the fair under,~ standing of"the. ( Ma.)Hs bonourable and learned frienil had gone throuShtheppr flirmerly laid on the tab'le, and bag giveni a most justanlsso the course hithierto pursued 'by GQ. vermment with! respect to the colonies of Spain. He bekd,jtUtly' stated that the first qutest ohcipointofordir was the couxsqthat'was, to be pursued by tlit Govertmeiat of England, as between spaji, and thec colonies with refereace to a state of war, and that that cours was one ofpirfect neutrality..anid that, in'thq parsuit of.ths,t course, In the adisision that states seraratinkg from the mother coDUntr took an equal rank with the belligereict power, this Govern- ment 7ad, pre Santo, raised the colonies iri' the scAle of nations.. His hon. And leared friend said, that. in. the year l=,t'hle ex'ent of commerce which -existed'- between thia country. atnd Spanish: America did, lead to a die faqsq recognition of, the existence of thiose coloniies, as separate from Spain His honourable and learned friend stated, tb,t the next step, bWor-e the breaking out of the war between Ira4nce anud Spain, wi.a a declarition, made at, that time to the Spanish'Gorernment, and published -A few noiothgk afterwards, that thei time appeared to the Britsh Government to. have cqulte decided the question of separation ; but that the question of recognitiox mnust be diecided, by different circumstances, 3A4d amtongst ethers,b the intetmastat# of thecolonies themnselves~.'This wxs the fact state!; and akfter tkis declaration the B3riitish Govern=- ment conceivedthat they haAnot left to Spain,norct o any otherrpow4r, any just cause of complaLint. The cireumnstar.ces of the lat warin- duced this coispir to suspend the mission,of commercial agenits to the colonies a~ the decision of the contest between Frian~r-d Spi, lmi ately after the deciiion of that contest, or. ra 1at tlke Moment of eliat decision, and before any step Was ta .a'b1y Frneo n other power with respect to those colonies, a warning wa ,gvn ythis Governinentin. eclearest terms,axto the course that would h taken for repellng any attack by-anvy foreign powrer ont theSpaishcolniz. Te nxt tag inthe course of thosetransac- tion wa th prposiionof heCurtof France, for this countrY to for pat o a onfrece r cngrss,atwhich the affairs of Sj6isnih Amerca wre t be onsiered andtherefusal of this countrY to ac-- ced. Tgt efual as irs gien o te Court of France, and sub- sequently t Spuan herself. On this point the house woald agree with him thatit was not necessary that be should dwell at present. That was the last stage of those transctions on which any public discussion had taken place in Parliament. The rtate in which tlings, then remained, the lstt time the question was agitated within the walls of that house, was that which he had described. It had bern stated to the house, that the King's Government tihough reserving to themslves the right of acting as they thougbt fit, had hesitated to recognize the indepenidence of those coloaies. This was done, becatise it as thought right, politic, expedient, Just, and generous, to ensure to Spain the oppot Ur ty ' f precedency in performing that act, and to see whether she would be disposed to avail herself of iLt What he had to st3te to the hoase was, that nothinghad becn done in consequencebySpain; and with respect to any further steps which 'might be takeen by this country towars' the South Aernican. States, the British-Governmerit was left'to act'on its& own views, and accordin' tOits own wishes with oat- any reference'-wbatsoever to the Court of Spain. (ier.) This iras,the only communication he had to make, and he truited 'the house -ould see, that ill, sttingthat whiih was a fact, he de- precated rather than encouraged discussion; and with'respect to hitinj atany ulterior course, or alludg to what might he done here fei, he mbust decline it, becau5 were he to do etherwise, he could not avoid the risk which' would be inseparable from such i disclosure. He 'wbuld bere condude, if he were not glad Qf tde op. portunity Which thl speech of 'his -bo oursble and, learned friend afforded hinm for putting on its true' gWoudst and plcing itinjust light,apolntthiat been vey generillj mistaken. He referredy to theword"re'cu.n;t" which hid iee soo,ten thowit-ien thiist iubjct. 'aa uSder copS deationr2xhe !',hse "'recernition of ind ependenee"- ba'U,e S, '-'wo to be uuderstetideir two'*Ver,y -dfwdc'itJ-y' - ,'l.f; the' colonfies a?d rlto8' ^U~si ely- i ;in,,db,endeit,efl -adnd teiii io41aai; ece'drtwaver 'Ij; fi;l .. tiserag tygy4 tkemt bttlfib. S '1aaal dh!;ies 01" 1tIKV& ftate. "am~ in endcrnt," saii Otst state' &V1swer-, 102 itaenhel," this was nothin moe thanx the statemenit of 5PZ5iam, Ovrof a fact, ana did not atr the relative situation of tr`e lm~he eontry sad her coloaies. (Hear hear.) He was sure ~l5 IhCft -id learned friendl would agree witl him, that this exposi. ttXi Of the differet senes ot' the term in question was the clearest *rf1Uent in fayour of thr, couree which the British Government had frlVialy taken ; for our recognition 'of the colonies, in the miinor *'se of -th* termu, weald not carry with it the.sAMe aulthoritT 3s the " o021"i f the mother country would in the greater sense.What- ever their disposition towards this or any other power might be, a *1tal -2tsrecogicitioncouldanot give to that vowtr thesame au- cudonly come from thermother cluntry. If, there- t, heylooed xeusively to the interests of the colonial states th~r'~eles,tmihtperhaps be amortedesirableobject to those states. t~a th reognnonof Great Britain shouldl be delayed, in the hope ~. Crvpg tat f Sgrlmwith it, rather than that the re. ~Pii~au o Gret ~~ n should be precipitate, and tha. '~ ccO5eqnence the revconition of the mother country sbould be "withheld for ever. WVhethier all hooe of that kind was over-whether It 'wa totally at an ead, it was imfiossible for hima positiv.'ly to say. T'hE' Matter Was one of opinioni whichi he cbald not decdedlmy ha- L-te ene way or the o:her. He fcarea, withi his bion. and learned frenad that thesimple sense of the wordl" recognition" was much 3,zlluderstood both thereana elsewhere ; ro his hon. and learned -friend wouJld Wee with himn that recogition was often asked for, tnmtat in a mariner and withi the expectation of circumstances tfiit dia not. necessarily, belong to the act. He was, sure he would fet with him, that grcat ax was the boon of recognition2 in its shnPIrut sense, yet. it might be a fatal gift, i-f givn in one 3=tus, and accepted by those who requstetd it in anothere-if given as a simplercc ur.oz, and accepted as a eeitio implying alli- .1m~cean co-operaition. (H ear, hear.) UMn~yothose wha caued for t:h0cilt it vwculd have the eff'ect of' tranquiUizing the government OfStates. hutsa simple recognition had nothing to jo, with the sup- port Off future pwer, and he wax therefore mosmt anxious that there i'hould not be found any exaggeratted expectation of what would be or mnight be the re-note or immediate consequence of such a renoiition as that. Hisi honourable and learned friend had put tan eases, whiceh he! hadl designa'e&l as a dilemma, but from 'whi,ch he fMr. Canning) did not find it so veryr cifficult tO e,s=pe, as his honourable andI learned friesid imagined. He had said, tust tither Spanish ALmerica must be considered as one great Mass, and then the measof the King of Spain there bore so small aP- ,tontthose of the colonies, that nocontest could becarriedi on; r tattey uttbe ake asseprat aninderendentstates, and the, acoringto he ropsitonslai dwn in scaine of the Papers, thei inepedenc mut b immdiaelyconceded. Now, to take the inei ovr te whle.Thee ha ben n ide ofanysuch establiabment. It was, therefore, in the other pito view that the stiates mu,st be lookedI at; and lhe would not go far. *,ee Into that part of the argument than to state, tat thfough he agreed 'with his hon. and le-arned friend, that they ha opretence to be so scrupualously exact as to insist that naw, govermets should ,,;possess all the stability cf ancient states, yet they must act ~ ~h om litl cuton,an wighmaurlywhat Gover. '-?.ens tey igh chos ths. o dstiguih.He maintain. ad tht prncipe upn whch h beleved thatth honourable andleanedgenlean nd imslfwere in great measure agreed- tha thy theMinstrs f te ritshGovernment) were bound to cn:ia.erwellwhatondutit ouldho ssenitial to the interests of lhis country to obsmerv,in a question as to the adoption of the exist. e:ice as an authoize goeneto n at, unless that party orgovernment was so fully and distinctly established in its indepen. lience, that byr the mere fact of our acknowledging that indetendence we couald be sure of not being involved in the stntggles and squab. blts r-aturally incidental to subjects of that nature. Ho was far from the intention of laying this down as the exact sitate of any of %he pa.-tes which it was the object of this discussion to considecr; but the lprinciple was that which he 'would enforco in oetey Casa 'whtatever. In regad, however, to the real facts one observation would be sufficient to satisfy the lion, and learned gent. The Go. wreruiment hail taken such steps as they judged most proper to ascer- tab the real condlition of the' governments now under considera. tion ; but they were not yet in possecsiQsn of' any information ,which could satisfy them.-otherwise there would have been Ro 'want of readiness to atae it to the houise. Even 'with respecr to the srate last mnentoned by, the hon. sand learn,ed genat., Colomnbia, he (Mr. C-anning) had obtainied whatever lhe knew from the very samne cianntels whith had furnished the hon. and learned gent. All that he had was derived frorm accounts which were known to, others as well as himself; they were a little exaggerated, and they might be more trustworthy than he had at present any- just reasons to appre. bend. W*hatevcr they were, there was not enough, nor werethey of AL char=cer sufficiently authenticated andl official, to justify the Go- y'erameat in going furtber thxn thry had done. This was all which he found it necessary to state in anstwer to the observtions of the bon. and lemred gent., wi h much of which he entirely coincided. To"eerygpincipletlaiddown inthe government papers brought for- 'ward by te hon. and leArned gent eman, he confidently assured the house that he and the King's Government would steadfastly ad. here. The progrecss which th y bad made since they mot the Par. liament in the last sessions, was proof of the earnestness andl since- rity with which they had proceeded in the adoption and realization ofthoeeprinciples. The bon. and learned1 gent.himnselfapr, n a he sow -professed to do. of nIl that had been stated o czFo the Government both no-wand at the farmer period, would judge for h2imself if it wouldbe reallyexpedfient in the present&-tate of things to press for paperg, the intivir.g for which would only excite discus. mos,and or scisurs beondanythig which the informa- ironpoisd b Govrnmnt wuldenabe tem to xsake, and -whe- tber,islrort perseeranc on pat wonlnotblkeI rather to cr~licte nd etad, hanto cceerae tatwbj ct hi he had at brar. [he igh hoourale entema haingtaken his seat -to comnmunicate a fact, the statement offwih ehdovr lkd 'which yet might probably be gratify'inx to the hous,wihws that a second snplicatini had been made to the Govrmn !i Stitaninie Maje;ty to become parties in the Congress about to assent- ble, which application, though pressed with urgent entreaties, kad 'been tzain steadfastly refusea.1 (Cheers.) Mr.'T.AWILSON said a few words, which were rendered lnau. salble in the gallery. Mr. ELLICE concurred with the bionourable member for the city eof London, in the well.deserved praiAe which he had bestowed iron his hon. and learned friend for bringinig this subject forward. Had Parliament adJourned without some declartion or diascusson mpon this most important subject, that neglect mnust have imparted the createstdissatisfaction sand uAeasinesa to all the commercial ranks ina the counitry. In the out-?orts, no less than in the city. of Lon. tcan, did the deepest anxiety prevail as to theaswuances which miight folow from the Government upon the presenting tthig petitien. All that he would say for the present was, that the simple recognition of theirindependence by Great Britain would do more to qriell tke dis- ?zrrbances and restore order as to the affairs of the colonies, than the recognition- of Spain herself. He trusted, therefore, that he was not rongi~ epecting that recognition would speedily flow from the ipsof he igh lin. ecrtar hiself, convinced as he was that it 'as ightim tht th Brtis Goernentshould think of sonie mean fo putin upn asfeandsold fotigthgretanvery con. sidrabe ercntie ranacton whchwrenowatngeween this eCountrandteSpanlshAmerican colonic.Hfelt more ainuiyn be- hulfote commercial persons whose ineet eeivle,tan on z=cunt of thos who had accommodate tenwGvrments with loanzs ;thc: first caste beingone, which frmh presst extent of the tranisadtions, must miore or less flc l h mercantili interests of every species whatsoever in thscountry. The reco_gnition ought, 1herefor.e, to be no lougerdelaye than was absolutely, and unquec. hiosably neceasa toth secrt adpceof this country. Already *49overninent had appointed comms tonrs who wOer xent out to in. .tjirelv IntO the Sta'e Of the reltos Of those eslonlies. But while e..iry pursed their investigations. questions of the gravest import.. ~ were aLitated in the court of this country, where doubts were =tinuallyopposed to the very existenc.e of the Governments which 'were to be the srubjects of that irquiry. These were clrcumstsncos which couIld not buIt shiake al confidence in mercantile tranls. Scrions effected under them. It was mnuch to be desfrd tbat the xecos made byr binisters; in Parliament might not be pentalnd an detroYed in their efT'ect, by parties speaking else. tthdestutiOn of all reasonable confidence among comn. ~~-rl erein he ffIraof that traffic. Hecordiallyjoined inthe bans aiA raiesdue to his bon. asid learnedl friend for endeavour. mingtootain an satsfcton from the Government uipon points of ~~ eWGHAM3 wished to add his grateful testimiony to that which had been already bestowed upon his hon. andl letrned friend far h-is mnaaterly- and compreltenaive manner of bringing forward this sujt recond to none either in the impoVrtance of the particular vow, orr in the general Principles with s'hbichit stood conisedced. He -OnCirted i2 muc-h Of what hsdA beea ofreredlb-y tbhe right hon. gseR %Ilemaw, riot in aniswer to his hon. end learned friend because his abevti warereof a nature perfectly, unanstwerable ; bunt in refer,. enee, he would -rather say, to the remarks contained in thtat speech. Thie3amurance ofa secondL refusal to form any- part of.the Congress naboutto si.tin Europe was at this time the niore satisfactorr, because it 'wouldl keep the Government of this country so much the less fteurzed w-ith regard to South America WVith regard to the olserva. ti3m of the Tighut hon. gent. as to the wanktot information sufficientIy zr.mzl., ofEcW.'cr authentic, to jusgiy any, bolder steps on the part i-s the British Government, he d1i ered In the application, of the pleof the lawr of nations fromn tarihlon etlenian. ssiv stte, previsl insbeto,latucee n break. iajre eyrke ndhad sbtnieyAalse t w eaaem ndpndent existeir,i a o nhsoiintedt k n ~j'~r state of n.ecessity to question lt adtog roe,h ec '.jiA" nearly independent state might be yfcino aa,b n ~,_e or open violence in one quarter, orhwvrmchI agro ,..A.6 Iftrn the powetr of the -rit state in another, if it were ab I'l indepesmderit, the acknowldgmnent of that indenendence 12ity proceed forthwith from Our Govemrnmentoranyotlier whose Lnert and Policy PromPted them to such a step. According to t,~ lsaino'ou exposttion of intemnational law gi'venbyyhis hon. and izareed fiicnd, and not controverted by the right honourable SecclzY there was all the difference in t'he world, between the admieionm of _such independence by. the mnother coun. try, who wod tueretny bnave to forego the claim of a long e~liahed right, and the admission of it by another power, hxvrig nosuch interest at stake, and urged to it by motives c,f-t Tpoi7, lwere It only in regard to ectendingher foreign rela- . Ting the matter in this light, and by that acknowledg.. enr no teahing any breach, notdreading in the least that we should >be ilvsed with the mother country, and not expecting that byany 'siritcy it could be influenced by the views of any other state h'ar, hear)-not foramoment anticipating their interference, and juiking it impossiblethat we should have anything of the kind to ~"ead from the cussian Government, or the Austrian, or that of zan.cc, orthe Prussian-God help us if it could be possible-or that any oftherawould dare toss; as much as t" Why do you.so ?" lie erusred riat5ovcrnmcnt would lose no time inuettlingtheirdoubts upon those statements,'uhetlier exggerated ornot, and having satis. -d theniselras either with this or their own superior infor. ron, that they would proceed conformably to the practice _llawed by the law Of nations, and in concurrence with the -poaicy and conmercial interests of the country, to del. with boe coor:ies as one independent state dealt generally-with another. He would only add, if the subject required more urgent reasons than tsw already advanced, his testimony to that of hii hon. friend the iembrr for Coventry, of the deep importance whiih was given to itby eesliglhtest attention to the questimnswhich were springing ep ar afier aay in the Courts of law, wherein the rights snd inter- em of British merchants were kept in a state of jeopardy And ha- _u.d-rn_t jusain li itruntil the recognition of those sta'es' Ibe llcwed w take place. He cordially united in the wish, vbh* had berne tat-tbeperiod for ddlying that recqgnii- 4W he be t6 I os.a-p. . . . . yTosh , Iboius that th ti6iibrhit,d. d itagvefim,that his conducth ad-niet' Ieetumercitaronsituents. Hehebdni-. -,,# ihb , ec which ulbjectbidreceived from the sight hons. iecrtuy o'ppeeits, whomustbe thebest jurdgeof whatcommunuieationsshould befamnishedorwithi eldfrorrParliament bytheexecutivegovernment; aitadheighthon. gentleman weuld ne doubt be as ready to admit that he (Sir J. Alacintosh) h3d done only what the occasion required, in seeking to obtain such informa. tion as the Government had to give. That it would have been a great source of dissppointment to the commercial pablic of this great emnire, if Parliament had *cparated without any endeavour to obtain sattilfaction, might be judged of from one single fact whichl he had collected from the Liverpool accounts. The exports of this c OUntry wecre 41,000,000]. annually, of wvhich 17,000,OOQI. were sent to the continent and islands of Amenica; and of these 17,000,0001., 6,000,0001. were seat to those solonies which hitherto had been dependencies on the Crown of Spain Was it not *omnething extraordinary that there shotl be no ac- credited agent or channel of communication between this coun- try and settlements to which one.seventh part of all our exports was sent out? He wished to set himself right as to something which he bad said upon the law of nations, which had not been claarly under_ stwod. What he contended for was this-that recognition as between the colonies nnd the mother country was one thing, because the pa- Tent state was called upon in that case to surrender a right; but re- cngnition oftheindependence of the samestate by a neutra power was quite another question: for then, all that they had to do was todiscorerifthe statein question wasipsofacto independent ofthe parent state: no matterhow much dangerandagitationmightattend the act ofthrowing offits dependence, the neutral power? if it so tbought fit, had a right to deal with that party which could command the obedience of the sommunity. He defended those who had advanced their money to the new governments in thewayofloan. Hebhad amplesmployment for his owncapital, and was not likel to incur censure from rny of the fast friends of British interests who objected to lending money out of the country. But bse was prepared to contend, that those parties who had advanced their money were entitled to the protection of Government, and that by ebtaining interest for theirmaoney, they were benefitting their na- tive country. as essentialy as those who lnt money on mortgage at lr. CANNING Insisted on theobjection which he had before urged to the claims of those who had lent their money to the Rew governments, and who, in fact, were not fairly interested in the question of recognltion. Yet,ifthe hon. and learned gentleman knew as much as he did, he would be aware that those persons had been not a little importunate in enforcing their claims for the interference of the British Goverment in favour of these demands in the event of recognition-an interference which could in no way be justified, and least of all could it be due to those wlho bad advanced their money without any reference to the circum- stance of whether the independence of those states would be.recog- nized or not. Sir J. MACINTOSIH said that the United States of America had made their recognition of the independence of those states, with an express declaration that they woiuld adhere to a perfect nsutrality in the struggle between Spain and her colonies. Mr. EVANS said a few words. Sir F. BURDETT joined in the thanks expressed to the hon and learned gentleman who had brought forward this petition. Re con- fessed himself wholly at a loss to discern from the speech of the right honourable gentleman any thing of a positive and distinct nature upon the subject of it There wasr great ingenuity in it, no doubt, and a considerable quaitity of words which were without any tangible conclusion. As to the question of re- cognition under one set of dircuistances being warrantable, which was not io under another., he did not clearly appre- hend the distinction of the right honourable gentleman, and if he had, he shouldnot be veryready to concur with him. Re- cognition, as it applied to a state absolutely independent, was a sim-. ple word, and must mean one and the same thiag. On the prsient occasion, the recognition of this Government would be of far more importance to the colonies themselves, than the recognition of the parent state could be. The commercial intercourse which had grown up between this country and those colonies had grown up to so con- siderable a size, that recognition was absolutely necemsary to gua- rantee and securcit; and,asno policy-nointerestofEngland- no obligation ofJustice,-no maxim ef prudence stood in the way, there ought to be much better reasons for delajinx to recognize their ladependenca than any which hxd beena vadnced by the right honourabie gentleman. He apprehended that there must be some other canse besides those already put forward. There was notbingin thepublic circumstances of the case which required mi- nisters tohaverecotrse to this ambiguous modeof expressing them- selves, as if they took pleasure in shrouding every thing in diplo. maticmystery. There seemed to be nothing in the stpeech of the right honourable gentleman, exrceptan indirect proof that they had not made up their minds get what they ought todo. His hon. friend themenber for Coventry had come near to tht truth, when ie spoke of the Proceedings in tie courtsof law. The Lord Chan- cellor of England was in no hurry to recognise the independence or even the existenceeof those states. This was the paint of difficulty, and not the dread of the cvil war between Spain and her colonies. The only war, in fct, in which they were in danger of being involved was nearer home; it was the war among themselyes. The question was a sort of hitch, upon which the parties in the cabinet, being too equally balanced, were unable to agree. The right bonourable gentlemart ought to have gone farther, nnd to have shown, that as there was nothing to be considered, thank God, but the will of the Government and the interests political and com- mercial of this country, so there would be great inconveniences and disadvantages to those interests from recognizing at the present juncture the independence of those states. He had failed to do so in that sort of nospeech which he had made, and which only offered in the place of firandreasonable measures an unnecessary and not very intelligible species of punctilio. He trusted that his hbnour- able and learned friead would not leave the subject until he had in- duced the Government either to adopt other measures, or, at leaxt, to give a more satisfactory explanation than that now given by the right heonourable Secretary. ilIr. HU3ME observed6on theimpolicyof this country in withhold- ing arecognition of iiidependence from states absolutely independent. He thought it oetraordinary that this G}overnment should persist in refusing to admit the independence of St. Domingo, which had been established upwards of 20 years. He recommended this subject to the attention ot thehon. member for Bramber, and wondered thathe had not thought of it before, in his zeal for the welfare Qf the negroes, when this perhaps was the only way open to lead them into the cus. toms and habits of civilized nations. The petition wasorderedto beprinted. Mr. EILICEW moved that the report of Captain A'Neal, of his Itvssty's ship Auguata, ser t down to Honduras, should be printed. -83rd"ered. NEGRO SLAVERY. MIr. WILBERFORCE presented a petition from the inhabi- tants of Carlisle, against negro slavery. He took a review of the uroceedings which had been adopted byParliament upon this subject. It would seen from the contumacrand rashnes of the colonists- from the stoutianguage and menacing attitude which they absurdly assumed,thattheyabsolutelydid not comprehend the designs of Government towards thens, as expressed in the resolutions of last sessions ; or that the means taken by Government had been so weak and ineffectiv4 that thecolonists,wvho prognosticated the ruin oftheir states from any amelioration of the condition of the negro, had been tem pted from that appearanc of moderation to set the Govern- ment at defiance. It actualy amounted to that in Demerara, where there had been such resolutions pased, that with the assist- ance ofoneevertact wouldhavenearly constituted acrimeofhightrea- son. They had declared in those rerolutons agaiast the right of the English Govemment interfering to make laws for them, thic same as if, like Jamaica, they had a legislative assembly of their own. In Barbadoes they had resolved not to allow any missionary to remain in the settlement-thun usurping a power over the laws which were imposed upon them by the British Government. The slaves were held in utter contempt in no colony more than In Barbadoes. It had been only within a few vears that the murder of a slave was there made a capital offence. Previous to the year 1818, the law wasperfectly au- gseory,because, to convict a maa of murderinghis slave, it was neces. sary toshow that he had doneso notonl,ofmalice reense, but also rithout provocation. BNut he proceeded aow to call the attention of the house, and particularly his honourable friend, to what he considered the grand question; which was-whether it should ho left to the colonial assemblies to make that amelioration which was so much desired or whether they should compel it by the supreme authority of thelegislature ofthis country. In exanuining this ques- tion, be was led to notice the treatment which the free coloured people ofBarbadoeshad recently!experienced. A petition signed by 19 of them had boon presentedito the Governor and House of Assemblv, couched in the most moderate and respectful terms, and in which the etitioners declared they woitld not then press any solicitation for their admission to their rights and privileges, on account of the existing disturbances. The house would bear in mind that the condition of these free negrees was little better than the dlaves, excepting that they could not be driven to the field. Another address was afterwards presemted, conceived in terms no less reason. able, and this was signed by 375 persons. To this address, however, ast answer was returned, which stated that the House of Assembly had heard with indignation the sentiments contained in the petition presented from the free negroets awd mulattoes. That they iad no doubtthatpetition emanated from some dangerous and designing persons, at whose instigation it was obtruded - on the notice of the public. It went on to add. that the house positively denied the pe- titioners to possess any other privileges than such as hadl becn grant- ed by the colonial legislation, the continuaRce of which depended en their own good conduct. And this was the hnAguage held to a sot of persons who had been allowed to accumulate property in the -colouy, and who were allowed to contain armong them manypersons of education, of moral worth and good character. From this example of the behaviour of the bo- dies of colonial legislation, the house might gatther what was the ge- neral feeling entertainedamongthem; and he asked whether it was to be expected, that such bodics were at all prepared to lay aside their prejudices, anA to co.operate with us for the amelioration of their slaves ? He concluded by expressing his decided conviction that to suffer the colonies to go on acting under the spirit and prin- ciples which at present actuated them, would be to allow them to effettheirown ruin. Mr. BERNAL thought, that afier the frequent discussions which this subject had already undergone, he had some reason to com- plain that the honourable member for Bramber had thought fit at the CIose or tie sessiosession to bring the subjet before the h ouse, wtoth-" having given any notice of his intention to do so. He must complain too, that he h.d indulged in the grave charges which he had alleged against the whole of the West India colonies, without aiiy such previous intimation, and consequently without giving an tp. portunity to himself (llr. BernaI and to others who were in- terested In behalf of the lVest Indies, to be erepared with a refutation. of his assertions. (Hear, hear.) The honourable gen. tIeman had adopted a very strange coursein the manner in wicri he had treated this subject. He had mi xed up in one compLlint and sousation all the colonies and had blended in his charges Jamaica and Demerara, which had nothing to do with each other. Because in times of disturbanceand danger,aproceeding liadtaken place in Ja- maica, thehon. member madeuseof ihatcircurmtancefor the purpose ofshowingthatit wasapart ofthe systemuniverray adopted. He(Mr. Bernal) asked, whsethier such a course was candid or manly-whether it was such as became a Chrittian gentlemani and a Bri'aih senator ? (Hear.) Without entering into particular refutations of the amser tions of the hon. gentleman, for which he (r.Berna1 wa' unre pared, owing to the unexpected and unfair way in which they had been produced, he was. ready, upon the broad principle, to deny them, and to state to the house, in defiance of all contradiction, thtt every effore bad been made by the resident proptietors in person, and by tfose who were.absent through their attorniee and overseers, to improve the coddition of their agricultural labourers and their domestica saves. Butthehon. gent. seemedtowistoatcomcplisls in ;e f months th.1t which the experience of ages and a sILigh 'know- ledge of the philosophy of human naturewould sufficeto s ow r could tiotb te effcted but by slow degrees. .Ilreipect tothepetition al- 'eo by. die hontbe hon. gent., and the answer which had aahn.etitrned I ro b lt be HoeHou of A gsembly. he wis'unable toOft-r ofni'eb ob I os. fa b he had known of thehon. gentlemen' s i rito te t, t he could have procured.fromn his. friend the agent of B.ia.a I be al dt1tpril rbelatingif rltingto Win semIt-d ne-tbtrs-iiotetjt'n deaera peito phouldo chave hope bean wered i suchtcrms a wore faid6 tb hve 6eeu useadi ina it th ho;. reiemv reprlseiitatio"n of it uiere trui, be ( Mr. Bernal) was T5edT to admit thagt the tree colouredpeople of Barbadoes laboured under sezieusbhardshiips. He could not, htowever, briNig himself to believe that there were not -tome other circumnstances attending the transaction than those which halibeen detaled. To leave, however, this consideration, be would ask the bon. gentlemian if he thiought it was wise at this period of the session to bring forward the subject in the manner he bad chosen ? If he really did think it was wise, be (Mr. Bernal) was compelled to be directly at issue with htim. That continueed strain of invective which he indulged in against the colonies could never have the effert of allaying that stormny spirit whichi waLs known to prevail amongst thiem. If the hon. gentleman was sincere in wish- ing to mneet them half way in the woik of amelioration, let it be in the stpirit of charityandbrotherly union-inot byr means of invective, inrullt, and threat. (Hear, hear.) rs. CANNING roe, in the, hope of bringing this discussion to an end. It was well known, thiat after frequient 3nti serious delibera. tions, the hiouse had last year decided that it was expedient to pursue a certain line of conduct towards the colonies, which line of conduct they afterwards emnbodied in certain resolutions, and recm- mended it to be adopted by his Mfajestyr's Goverrnment., The Go. vernment acquiiesced in the recommendation so m-ade to them, and this year announcedl to Parliament their intentiox to carry the plani inito effiec'. His hon. friend,' the member for Bramber knew too well the sincere respect he entertained for him to believe tiat it was his (Mr. Causing's) intention to sayanything unkinld oisevere to- wars him; but 'he felt compellea to tell him, and thoe who entertained opinions simiilar to his own, On the sbeto thle IVest InodiaTi colonies, that they' must makt upthimnd eithier to let the Government puriue' the course which Partha-] mmte had chalked out for them, or else to propose some othieri ph'n, and bring it fairly before the house, that it mnight be fully dis- cussed. (Hear.)' Bu falte~ eedlings that could have been! adopted,nhe thought that which his hon. friend had made choice of was the most unfortunate. He had takern this opportunity at the end of the session to express his disstisfactiont at the coadrse whichi had been pursued, and to regret-that some-other hadl not been pre- ferred: bethought theGovernment was slow in carrying into execu- tion measures for ameliorating the condition of the slaves. To this objection, be (Air. Canning) answered, thtat the evil which it was their object to remedy' was of the growthi of -ages, and that it would be impossible to pursue, in -accmpliihing that ob. ject,a coursiewhich should be atonce ra,pid mid wise. (Hear, hear.) But, whether it was wise or not, it was that which Par iament hadI laid down; and, willing as the Governimenit was to 'obey it, he for one -would throw from himself the responsibility of its failure, if fail it shouild, upon thoee who now sought to b'iterfere with and to thwart its operation. (Hear, hear.) When it hiad been resolved to adopt that course, he was not insensitble that in order to make it effi- cient it would be necessary to peass by-all the demonstrations of ill- temper which might be manifested on-Vi4 'part of the colonies.. He regrctted, therefore, the more that upoa tke present oc- casion allI those topics which he had wished to see thrown asqide had begn. brought forward with no other view tbaf be could discover, but to aggravatte the ill temnper and insult the feelings of the colonists, and to interfere with the., pro. gresg of that plan which, he repeated, had not'be-en Invented by thie Government, biut adopted in compliance -with the wishes of the houxse. That plaxnmust,he was convinced be pursued with temiper en one side at least; and if the colonies should appear to be deficient in that valuable quality, there was somruch the strongerreason that it should not be lost sight of by the Government. (Hear.) If the operation of the plan was realy too slow, he (Air. Canning) deeply regettd i; bt h mut sy h wa byno means convinced of the fact Ifhishon frind houht hatt was advisable to assert the suprmac ofthemoter ounry,andto suplport bhat supremacy by amedfore, et hat uesionbe iscsse; but let it not be broghtforardin he annr wichwasattempted to.night. (Hear.) Govenmen woud nt shink romany task, however painfull, which the true interests of the country might impose; but hisbhon. friend was quite mistakes if he thouight Government did not see, when they entered upon the course they were now following, thiat, while on the one hand it required great resolution, energy and per- severance ;it demanded on the other, no less tme,orbearance, and allowance. His honourable frienad seemed to regret that the experiment, as it, was called, hiad been trieol first in Trinidad: he musti sam, that he saw no grounds for that regret. With respect to Demerara, the same policy would be purs'ued ; and with regard to the other coloniesi no tim;e would be lest in carrying the moat effective meausures into operation: but hon. gentlemen should not measure by weeks and days, that work which would re- quire the laborious exertioiis of maonths and years. If at the endof tha.t time any imipression shouldi be made upon an evil, tke magni- tude of which he contemnplated with, as much horror as the hon. gent., then he thought that no reasonaLble person could have cause to complain. In conclusionhbewouldagain appeal tothe hon. member, and ask, whether, if ke did not ap'preve of the course puir- suedby Gve nmen, i woud nt b uchn better to bring the sub. jectull beore he ous, thn tus o ener ponit by surprise ? Mr. VILRRFOCE enid an inenton o taingthe house by ~ris onthe ubjct.He hd gventhe right hon. gent. no- Mr. CANING dmittd tha his on. friend dlid hlim the cour- tesy to say that he would present a -petition on this subject ; but he could not have expected that in presenting it the wlhele question would be again folly- gone into. Dr. LUSH INGTON after a few remnarks, (not audiblb In the gallery), said he wouli not delay the house by ainy detailed remaTKS on the qjuestion before it. He could not, however avoid noticing the spirit of prejudice which existed against die free people of colour in some of the colonies He saw by tho Jamaica paprstha oe Idiidal wedidrit,tcachhis name) was accused ofailigars t thnegoesat hevrytmswhen thatindiviauai was sen i cstoy ro Jaaiat S.Dmigo byrdro te Duke of Mancestr. e hoed hatearl net gsaio,hi Maesty's Go. veraent ouldbe pepard wih al thedocuentsconectedI with the caseof the twom tione on aformer evenng,andbe ble o sow hy wo perifons'who had been dis- chared y th Cort o Ki~a Bnchin jamaica, should iat six hour beappehededfor he ameahl~cdofrence, by order of the Dukeof Mncheter,and,withut bingallowed lo be lieardl in therow deene, e sntof o S. Dmin..He would not say that the ukeof Mnchsterhadno aswe tosuch a case, but most certainly some explanation was required adhe trusted it would be given. Mr. HUSKISSON, with referencetosomeremarkswblchhaa fallen from the learned gentleman (Dr. Lushingten) on a former evening, obsrve,tat t ws osterrneus o uppose (and he was glad the leanedgenlemn hd eplanedtha pat of his speech) that the insurecionwhic ha brken ut ponthe vlanitation "1 Success," In Dmerra,hadbee casedby he ppressive conaduct of the ma- nagig aentof tat stae whch eloged to his honourable friend the embr fo Wodstc~. e culdstate, that the mostpogitive instructions were sentout tothatm maager. (and he hadnoDdoubt, as fitras possible followed,) to give to te slaves every possibleineans ofhieaefitting by thegemeral instructinswhich had been trnanmitted by Government for ameliorating their condiition. MIr. W. SMIITH obsmerve,thatbhiskhoreurable friend (Mr. Wil- berforce) had never expressed himself as if he hal expect- ed that the effectual improveme~nt of the condition of the slaves could be the war k of only a few weeks or months. He and his honourable friend bothi knew that such atn improvement must be the work of aconsiiderable time. They didlnot complain of want of haste, but there was a great difference between hastening to. wards a pint, and receding from it ; and it was to the apparent re- c,ding whioch they objected. The honourable gendieinata then went on to show, that there existed too little disposition in the colonies to afford sufficient protection to the free people ofcolour, aud he con- , tended that such a neglect on the part of the colonial governments could only have the dangerouts eff'ect ofdispoping thosepepleto make common cause with she negroes--a circumstance which, if it ever did occur, would be productive of moet fatal consequences. With repc t h condition of the slaves, he would riot gay that It liad net eenimlproved of late years; but when he looked to the stlave-po. pulation of the several colonies and found it dlecreasing from year to year, he must believe that there was something radically bad in the systeni by which tkey wore governedl. (Cries of" Que;tion." Mlr. F. BUXTON said he did not rise' for the purpose of pro. tracting the discussion by any lengthened observations, but rather for that of asking two or three very important questions of the hon. secretary (Mr.W~. Horton.) Betore, however.he did tlis.e couild not avoid remarking uipon the charget made against his hon. friend for bringing this discussion forward, 8o far from thinking that anysuch wascalled for, orwell-founded hewas of opinion that very considerable advantages would arise i,~ it. if the question were how far gentlemen who conceurred with him in theiir views ef this question were responsible for what had occuirred in the West Inedis, he would say. that much goodi hadl result- edl there from what had passed here dn the eubject.. He cn- sidered that heand those gentlemen who acted wishi hirawr e gponsible for the- measure, until they succeeded in bringing about a full and entire amelioration of the condition of the vlaves. He di not expect that this was a result to wlitch--their exertions couldI hastily be brou 1st, for neither he nor hil -friends hatd any other cx-I pectation than that those unhappy being who were stow faves must Icontinue so til their cdeaths ; but he did think that by a1 proper and timaely application of the requisite means the chitdren of those slaves might be made capable of enjoy.ing their freedom, and that when so capable they rtould be allowed to en- joy it. The right shDuld not be delayed beyond the time that they were capable of using it. This, ke thought, might be effected by his Majlesty's Government, and so far they were answver. able. For such ettorts as were likely to bring about this desirable result, he and hiis friends wereresponsible. , They were not, howvever, answerable forr the vioIent language which had beenl recently held in the colonies. With respect to the free people df colour, he con- curred with his hon. friend in thinking that too little prQtection had been extrudled to them bv the Colonial Governments. if such, a policy were not changed,'he apprehendled the'worst consequences. (Hear, hear.) As to the recent insurrections, at Demerara, he thought it was a most unwarrantable assertion to say that thywere in any degree produced by what bed passed in that house. He woud c-ontend that they arose -from the silence and secrecy which were observedl with respect to the Iletter of Govern. ment sent out to that colony. Rumoursh~ailgove abroad in the co. lony reseci~ng it, which were increased and exaggerated in- onr tion as there appeared a desire to conceal the truth. It Las sin. gular thing, that while the contents of that letter were carefuUy con- cealed from those to whom it was of importance that theyghoald be known, they were partially told to the slaves ind domestics of the Governor. It was to this culpable silence on one side, and partial communication on the other, that the disturbances of Demerara were to be attributed .and not to any thing which had passed ia that house, or any thing.which' had been said or done by the missionary Alr. Smith. (Hear, hear.) There was another point on which he would say one word, as it bad but been slightIv alluded to in the former debAte-he meant the outrageous proceedines against the missionary at Barbadoes, whose. chapel was destroyd, and he himself forced tofly to anotherisland. Of thesc disgraceful scenes, -the house we.eas yet but partially informed-of the punishment of any of the offenders, they had not heard a word,.' He would now give notice, that if the ful'lest information were not afforded on this .subject, and unles he . heard that every possi. ble means were resbrted- to, to bring the culprits ito jus- tice, he would, regardless of any consequences - which' mught arise from the. discussion, bring the whole subject before the house. early in the next session.' He would 'low itate the 0uestions which: he bad risen to propose. The first was, wbether Government had' made any declaration, or sent anv instructions, with respect to the ireatmeent of the free people of colour ? The second. was,. whether all the colonies were to be placd in the sAme attuation as-Demerara and Trinidad, with .respet .to the inaLrdcti6n&;'dit from Govern ment in the letter to. the formef dceP .,The thiis,*hethir any, and whit steps had b'ezi taken, and thliratIecess r to .justice 'he persons ihtDr.of the t,tre-pn.tisaionarv r hn. eneinnyand for this proe-rta&a y ofthioEe letiter whles Kon. gendeflia~,p had ben rnt.outto the Government 'fMar4oebzon:thc bj&tQf! the'otrageaceomnited tbere. In Yat letter, hs &jesty'a hlih I dispLutsrewa conveyed, at the Occ ol aft b of thelaws, and thve smost p.itive orders *ere elien, that everypos. sible step should be taken to bring all persons guilty on that occasion to punislment. The result of that conimunication could not yet be known to the Government here. With respect to the firstquestion, as to the treatment of the free people of colour, he would say, that a legal commission was now in operation in the West In. dies, for the purpose of r3aking inquiries respecting the laws and institutions of some of the islands, and one object of that commission was to examine into and report upon the condition and situation of the free people of colour there. With respect to the other question, he would answer that it was (as we understoodl the hon. gentleman) the intention of Govern- ment to Dmake the order in council applicable to aU those colonies whichbhwl nota local legislature. The recent proceedingsin Deme- rara had delayed its application there. The hon. gentleman then went on to observe, that he wiould not enter into the general ques- tion. He was only anxious to point out the bad effect of any and every word of discussion on this subject, and to s'y howv much the re-action of discussion was felt in the office to which he had the ho. nfour to belong. In conclusion, he would add his opinion that this matter should be left in thc hands of Government. Alr. .iANNING next addressed the house, but in sol owa tone as to be altogetber inaudible in the gallery. Alr.BROUGHAM said, he could notallow the discussion to close without saying a few words; and first, he could not concutr with the right hon. gentleman, or the hon. member who spoke last, in think- ing that any blame was to beimputed to his hon. friend 'he member for Bramber (Mlr. Wilberforce) for takingthe lastopportunity which the session would afford of discussing a series of measures not dis- cussed before, and on which, by the way, so much information had lately arrived in the countty. . He and his honourable friends were accused of cominig too often to the discussion, as it was said, of the ,question. The honourable member opposite had the candour to sa,v three times. From this number he would take leave to deduictone-thiat on the question respecting the trial of Samith the missionary-a question which arose out of an in- jury to a particular individual. In the introduction of it, he had taken care to exclude *smuch as possible all allusion to the general question of the treatment and condition of the slaves, and that was thecase generally through the debate. Indeed, so much was it felt that the general question respecting the situation of the s1aves was not intended to be affected by it, th.,t many West Indiaproprietors, differing widely from him upon his general views o. West India policy, did, much to their honour, support him with their votes on that occasion, and but for accident vould have supported him with their speeches. Then what became of the threediscussionson thesamesubject ? Twice only had thissubjeect been discussed, and once of thattwicewas the presentoccasion. Not- withstanding the almost unexampled interest whiah'n the subject had, excited and the petitions wbich bad poured in upon them from all parts of the countryrespecting it, from persons differing widely in political and religious opinions, the question had been only onceithe subject of discuQion before the present evening,and on that occasion, too, it was introducedby s, hon. SecretaryI himself. Was it, then, too much in his hon. friend (AIr. WVilberforce) now towish to bring it forward, particularly as the important infornation had arrived in the country only the other day ? With respect to the outrages which had been committed in Barbadoes, lie did not wish that it should form any part of the present discussion. It would be better separate. He was,indeed, surprised, and it showed the weakness of the autho. rity here with the government in that island, that such an outrage should have gone so lonzunpunished. Thatwas rot an attack by a rabble, but by upwardr of a thousand people, and these by no means of the lowest orders-an attack, too, not in the night, or on sudden moment of Passion, but an attack made in the open day, and repeated for five or six days together; and that not by a people who sought concealment of the deed, but who boasted of what thev had done and were still prepared to do; and yet, strange to say, the police of Barbadoes had not, up to this hour, succeeded in discovering any one of the 1,000 and odd nerpetrators of such an outrage. (Hear, hear.) However, after they' should learn in Barbadoes what passed here on the subject, and particularly whsat had fallen from his Mtajesty's ministers respecting it, he trust. ed they would begin to bestir themselves in the affair, and that in a short time we shoni:dhear of someof theguiltyparties beingbrought tejustice. The bon. and learned gent then went on to contend,that no mischief arose in the West Indies from any discussions o thle question here; for the subJect had been debated, and the debates publishedyear after year, for the last five and twenty years, without producinganysucheff,ct. Thequestionwhichhad been discussed by thewarrmsestadvocatesofslavefreedom,wasnottheimmediateabolition of slavery-theinstant cmandpation oftheslare. Theobject of thoserepeeteti discussions was, not as it had been said, to break the shave's chains and arm him with the fragn?enes, but it was, that by a gradual improvement of his condition, by timely and proper in. structien, to Isay such a foundation for his future emancipation as would mnake such a measUTC uninjurious to himself and sae for the master. No one wlho was a real friend to the measure expected to arriveat so desirable a resultbyhastystep3. It was not thewant of such haste of which they complained, but the not making any ad. vance whatever-the " progress backwards," as he might call it, of the question. When' the proper advance should be made- when suchl' an amelioration of the condition of the s2ave should have been brought about as would readerhis freedom a blessing to hinself; and an adyantage to the colony then the measure should not be delayed a moment. (Hear, bear.) He had thought it right to oore those few observations before the discussion closed. He would now only add, that nothing worse could happen to the people of those unbappy islands than that vio- lence on one hand &hould bemetwithvacillaton on the other. (Hear.)' Ir. BUTTERWORTH defended the missionaries from any disposition to interfere with the political coxcems of the colonies. Their instruction. were most positive against any such interference, and he believed that they were aU well disposed to adhere to such instrucions in the strictest mariner. Air. W. HORTONobserved, *hat considering the situation which he held, it was important that what he said should not be misrepre- sented. He had remarked upon a former occasion, that it appeared to him that the advice given by Smith to the slaves was very irra. tional. He had said to theiTn-" Work on the Sunday if voar matters order vou ; but do no work on that day for youTselves."' Mr. BUTTE1.WORTH saw nothing irrational in this advice. If their masters desired the slaves to work on the Sunday, he should advise them to obey tie orders of their masters to-work, and not to rebel; for if there was anr guilt incurred by such working, it would lie at the door of the masters, and not of the slaves. On the other hand, he should say that the guilt was the guilt of the slaves, sup. posing they worked for themselves on the Sunday, when they had an opportunity given them of observing that day as it ought to be ob- served by all pious aud reflecting Christians. lonel BAG'WELL observed, that cause and effect had never been so clearly connected in any case as they were in the resolutions which the house adopted in the last session of Parliament, and in the recent insurrection ofthe blacks in Demerara. Sir G. ROSE entered into a variety of statements with regard to the state of society in the West Indies. Parliament ought to look upon it with great indulgence and compassion, since it had not per- formed its duty to their inhabitants by providing them with proper spiritual instructors. At present there was a populalion of 600,000 souls who were totally unacquainted with the doctrines of Chri&- tianity. MIr. A. BARING observed, that If there'had recently been a persecution of missionaries in the WVet Indies, it had arisen from a sincere conviction in the minds of the planaters that thev were not conducting themselves in the mild and gentle spirit of that religion of which they professed to preach the doctrines. He de.. fied any person to point out anr rational cause for the late insurrec- tion at Demerara, which if it had notbeen riginally instigated, ha4 certainlf been much promoted by the proceedings of Smith. (Hear.) He did not mean to say thaLt Smith had so far promoted it as to de- serve condemnation to death ; but he certainly had given such en- couragement to it as deesrved a punishment of some severity. If the mirsionaries conducted themselves properly, they would be of great service to our West Indian population * but so long as they continued to mix up with their religious views, viewsfor the amelio- ration of the slaves, they would neutralize their own efForts by rendering the plaxters hostile to tieir projects. He complain. ed in very strong terms of the exertions made by the various misslonary societies at home to deluds thepopulatiou of this countr.y, and to irritate the slave-population in tbe West Indies. If those ocielies shoull ever succeed in carrying their notiops into ef- fect, they would ruin the coloniesby the perpetua riots and insurrec- tions to which they would give rise. The Government at home, in- stead of baLancing itself between the twro patrties, should spenlk out in a manly and decided tone; by so doing it would allay the fearsof the plantersaabread,antd would put a atop to the unvrorthy manmayres wvhich ha d been played off irn Parliament against thens both duringt the last and the nre' ent session. Hle considered the presentation of this pedtition as the last of the manceunres wrhich were to be played offr' this session, antd he therefore felt it his duty to denounce it ac- cordinglr. Mlr. C. HUTCHINSON expressed great indignation. at the term " maticeuvres" being applied to the efforts made in that house to atneliorate the state of. lavery in our colonies. Hlejustified the mis- sionaries from seveatL of the reflections which hrd been cast upon them in the course of the debrte. Sir F. BLAKE was of opinion that the house ought to enjoin the coloniallegialatures to do what was right, and if they did not obey theinjunction wiUingly, should compel them to obey it by force. He was sorry to observe that the righthonourable Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs could not a7sandon even upon this subject his dar- ling scheme of neutrality (a laugh); he meant that he allowed both parties to do what they liked without interrering to check the excesses of either. The right hon. secretary thought he could satisfy the peopleof Entgland by saying, that slaverqshould be abolished. Now, in the face of the country, and in the face of the house, lie would tell the Minister thtat he for one vwas notsatisfied with,this (le. claration. He must know not only the year, but also the mro:xth, the weekBsay, even the very day when slavery was to be abolished, before lie could be satisfied. Oh! that he could nticipate the day when nota slave was to be found in the whole extent of the Britisn empire. Then, and not till then, he should be supremely happy. (Load laughter.) The resolutions of the last Session had ncutralized 'expectation, and those of the present session had extinguished the lastrans of expiring hopc (Hear, and a laugh.) It was the inser- tion ot thre littlewyor3s that had dloneall the mischief-those three words were " the earliest period." (A laugh.) It was clear that by those words, either something was meant or nothing. Now he tnouglht that nothing was meant by them, and he would tell the house why. The words " the earliest period" were no better than the woriZz" some timne or ofier," and ivcrv body kniew that " some I time or other" meant no tjtneat all. (A laugh.) He thought tbat the right hon. secretary in not fixing a time when slavery was to be abo- liihed, had omitted the primary point in his resoluitions. The con- duct of the Mlinister reminded him of a person who built a. house, a very fine house, and discovered, after it was finished, that a mate. rial part of it was wanting. " What, do you think it was, Air. Speaker ? Nothing les," said the hon. baronet, "tban thestaircase." T he hon. member wvas proceeding to apply this story, when 'he Faa itrnted bylouderics of " Question, order !" in the midst of wrhich be~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~s eat whdol Alr. EVANSjustified the conduct of the Alisionary Society, and saidthg it was highly improper to charge them withpromoting schemes which were likely to end in insurrection, bloodahed,and death. Sir C. FORBES observed that the missionaries, if not narrowly watched, would cause our expulsion, not only from the *Vest, but ilso from the East Indies. (Loud cries of "Hear.") In that opi. nion hie knew that- he was not singulsr'nay. he would venture to say that the majority of the house were of the same sentiments with himself on that subject, if they liad only the candour to avow them. M. Air. BARING, in explanation, said thaf he had never charged the- Missionary Socity with fostering schirok thit yere Iikebjto cnd ih insurrectionr and murier. On the contrary- he had obscl,re-tbhat the rnisgionaries.were'likely.to-effect much good, but dint;,'slzey 0ondiscced - themselvcs. at present, they v'er not likely to effect as much good as they otherwise woutld. ipodtin them to jteer clear of all projects of ameliorating the pohutcal conoitsoh of ieslt:ave. -- ,.Thepetiton was then broaght upl, and laid ujpots the tabli -On the question thet it bejrnuted, -.- : .--, - M r. WlLBERFORCE; took occassion to observe that he bad not thrown out any,refltctionhrupo the whole;,coLlectve population of the island of Darbadoes. Far prom it. Be weIl kwt thAt the sentiments enrtrtained by the higher ordtvrof the plantera In tar. badoes with respect to the treatment of their slaves differed v'ery materially from these entertained by the lower ordeds; but, unfor- tunately, the Assernbly of the island las so constituted, that -tlhe sentiments 'of the lower orders gencrxlly prevailed in it, andl so preventtd any great improvement in the state of tke slave pc- pulation. lIe likewhe said that he was only perfotrming an act of justice to Lotd C. Somertet, Utle Governor at the Cape of Good Hope, in observiag that he had exerted himself in looking at the religious education of the slaves in that colony, even before the subject was placed under his consideration by the vote of that house. The hon. member then adverted to the charges which had been brought against the Missionary Society by the hon. member for Taunton, andwhich. he said,were supportedby no proef. Itwas not thelrst time that the society had been attacked in thsaime manner.. It had been assailed by the poisoned arrow of falselood through the medium of newspapera aRd other publications. From the bottom of his soul he believed that there was no person con- nected with the ilissionary Society that had been instrumental in exciting discontentamongst the negroes in the West Indies. (Hear.) Mr. BARING. expressed his opinion thxt the minds of the mem- bers of the Missionary Society had become heated with respect, to the swbject ofnegro einancipaton. They h3d organizedestablish- ments in everv town in the kingdom. for thi purpoe of preparing pet- tions to Parliament. (Hear.) The Society viewed the West Indian proprietors with the most deadlv hostility, and they had made up their minds to attain the object theyhad so long aimed nt at the risk ofcreatinga convulsion in thecolonies. (Hear.) Those eeieis opinions andhe rould not shrink from decaring them. (Hear, hear.) He imputed no improper motives to any gentlemaLc in that house; but he co-Id not help thinking that the hon. member for Bramber and some of his friend7swereincited to bring th, question'of slavery so frequently before the house by some persons behind their backs. Mir. BROUGHAINI said that thehonourablerntmber for Taun- ton appeared to be completelv misinformed with respect to facts. So far from his hon. friend7, theinember for'Bramber, having brought forward motion after motion with respect to the question of slavery, this was the first time during the session that he had introduced the subject to the notice of thie house. Neither had there been any pe. titions presented on the subject until the latter end of lut session. The petition was then ordered to be printed. CHURCH ESTABLISHMENT IN IRELAND. Mr. DO3INICK BROWNNE said that lie had been waiting since five o'clock to bring forward the motion of which be had givert notice. At that late hour, however, he would decline to bring itfor- ward, but would content himself with moving it, in erder that it might be placed on the journals, with the intention of renewingit next session. The hon. member then moved a resolution, expreas.. ing the propriety of establi hitg a Roman Catholic Church in kc. land in connexion with the state. Alr. S. RICE w.s of opinion that the placing such a resolution on` the journals without any previous discussion? would create larmn in Ireland, and tend to defeat the object which tie hor. member had fn new. brr. CANNING thought that it would be better to withdraw the notice. MIr. DOMIINICK BROWNE said, that there had been an un- derstanding between his right honourable fiiend opposite, the mem- ier for Lonndonderry (Sir G. flill), andhimself, that he should beal. lowed to place his motion on the journals. (Laughter.) Sir G. HILL said, thathis honoarable friend had misunderstood him. Colonel TRENCH objected to the motion being put,,s tbhe joutrnals. Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD said, that if the snotion wsre persisted in, he wotld move the previous question. MIr. PEEL observed, that no circumstances -would induge him to agree to the modon, in the manner in which it was proposed. Nr. HUMlE s8id, that he had undertalten to second the mDtion, on the understanding that it was to be fully discussed - but as that, it appeared, ras not to be the case, he thought the hon. member would act most wiselvin withdrawing it altogether. Mr. D. BROWNE wished to aet himself right with the house. He had acted entirey under a misapptehension. He had, a short time since, had some conversatiorn with his right hon. friend (Sir G. Hill) respecting the motion and had expressed a desire to Have it entered on the JournalL. he tbought that his right hop. friend had consulted amongst his friends, and ascertained that there would be no objection to the motion, which he had therefore made. But since the motion appeared to be opposed to the wishes of the house, he had no desire to press it. (Hear.) But he pledged him. self to make the motion next session, unless he should change Wis mind very considerablv. (A lauyh.) After a few words from Sir G. HILL, thie notice of motion was withdrawn. EAST INDIA POSSESSIONS BILL. Mr. CANNING said that he had been prepared, Gnmoving the second reading of this bill, to explain the policy of Goyernmept with regard to the late treaty with the Gerernment of the Nethsr- lands, but he was unwilling at that late period, considering the fa- tigue which the house had already undergone, to detain them. He therefore suggested that the house should allow the bill to be read a second time, on tho understanding tha: it should be opeu, for discus- sion on the question of goiug into the committee to-morrow. Ilr. HIUME entertained great objections to the bill, but he wax willing to accede to the arrangement wlich theright lion. gentlenian had proposed. ilr. CANNING thought that he could remove all the hon. m . her's objectioiis, but he would not then enter on the tuk of con. vincing him. The bill w-m then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. IRISH INSURRECTION ACT. The house resolYeditself into a committee on the Irish insurrection act amendment bill. Some new clauses were agreed to. and the hoaue being resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow (Wednesday.) dlr. GRATTA-N aud Alr. HuixE objected to the third xasding of the magistrates' indemnity bil (Ireland.) Alr. GOULBURN derended the bill. The house divided, whien there appeared- For the third reading, 39 1 Against it, 21 Majoritr, ?,'. The bill was accordingly read a third time, and passed: The other ordersof the day were then disposed of, and the house uajoarned at TWO O'CLOCX. H(jJSE OF COmmONS, TuEESDAY, Jrulrr 15.