House Of Commons, Thursda...
The Times, 1824-03-12T00:00:00

-Lordl LOWITHER presented a petitioni fromn Kendal, praying for the abolition of negro slavery. Sir W1. ING ILBY presented sinmilar pietitions from Holbeach ancl lowthi in the county of' Lincolni. Air. 00dCH presentedi similar petitions from AMildenlrall and several other parishes in the countv of Suffolk. MVr. ESTCOURT presented a siimilar petition from Devizes. The above peti:isns were severally ordered to be laid on the table and printed. Air. MlANSFIELD presented a petitioni from the merchiants, wool-dealers, and worsted manufacturers, of the town of ljetcester, stating the great anxiety and alarm with whicli they view the de- dlared intentions of Government to repeal the existing laws forprevent- ing the exportation oflong wool, and prraying, if that intention should be crrid ino efect tht th peitioersmay be put on the samne footig wih ther foeigncompeitor, bythe repeal of the corn lawvs, the dtieson de waes, allo, an oilimpoted,and ott _uch other artcle asaffct he anuactrin inerets.Inthe prayer of this petiion thehon meber ull cocurrd, nd opedI it would re- Mr. [AiNTSFIELD p resenited a petition fromn the journeymeni boot and shoemnakers of Loughboroughi, tfor tht repeal of the com-. bination laws. i'rlr. 13. COOPER presentedl a petition fromi Oilocester, for the abolition of slavery; and a petition from diie journeymien boot arid shoemakers of the same city, against tire comnbtnation laws. MVr. PELIIAMI presented a petition from Newport, against negro slavery. MIr. MUJNDY presented a petition from the journeymien boot and shioemakers of Derby, against the combination laws. Mir. WTARD presentedi a petition from the silk-throwsters of TaUnIton, agaillgt theC proposed regulations affecting their tradle. Air. CALVERT prcsentedl a petition frorm Hertford, agaitnst ne- gro slaverZ'. Mir. DENISON presented a petition fromi the licensed victitallcrs of WVest Brixton, against tire duty on their licences' r.DAVEiNPORT presented a similar ptetitin fromi the vie- tuallers of Alaccleslieldl. Admiiral SOTH ERON presented a simnilar petition from the victuallers of Mlansfieldl. Mir. S. RICE presented a petition fromn the Freemasons; of Lime- rick, praying that they mnay be put oni the samie footing as the Free- miasons of Englandi. The hon. inemiber bore testimony to the good conduct aind respectability of the petitioners, and hoped thiat a bill wouldi be bTrought into thie lhouse to effect the object for which thiey prayed, and to whicli he thought they wvere entitled. Sir I. COFFIN supported the petition. Sir R. rFERUIISSON presented a petition- from- the carpet-imane.. facturers of Scotland, against any alteration in the exisuing laws re- lating to the imiportation of wool. Lord ALTHORP broughit in a hill for amiending and explaining the law of distress in Ireland, whichi was read a first time. Ifis lord- ship, understanding that some dliff'erenice of opinion prevailedI upon thlis subject, wished that the secondl readling of the bill shotild' he postponedi until after thie lient assizes, whieni several gentlemien of tire profession at presenit ini Ireland wouldi have an opportunitv of stating ptheir opinions on tire subject. Tire bill was then orderedI to be printed, andl to be read a second timec on the Ist. of May next. Sir WV. GUISiE irreserited a petition from Glocester, against tire proposed regulations afhiroting t he suil-trade. L;ord ALTH-ORP presented a similar pretition fromi the silk. inanufaicturers ofKetteritrrr, Nortlrarniptonslrire, and a petition from Middleton arid Chenies, ini the samie rounty, praying for tIre aboli- tion of slaveryv. Alr.ROBARTS pregentedi a petition simiilar to tire latter, fromi the corporirtion and inliabitanits of Maidstone. Mr. D)ENISON presented a petition fromi tire brewers of Dork- luig, against all restrictions in tire beer trade. Mr.'Aldennan WVOOD presenited petitionis froim tire licensed vie- tuallers of the wardls of Aldgate, Candlewick, Doregate, Walhrook, aird Qturenlrithe, praying for thie repeal of the duties on thieir Ii- cences. Colonel TrRENCiH presented a petition from Cambridge, in, fa- vtrur 'of the county- courts bill and another from the samie place, against rhe dutier, on coals. Tie eor wsMARINE MUTINY BILL. Tlieeporw;tbrougirt upi,tireaiirenidtnents agreed to, and the thiirdI readling fisedI for to-inorrow. Adoiriral SOTHEIRON presented a petition fromi a parish in Nottitigiransi, prayingz for tire aibolitioni of slavery. Mir. Gi. BENNET morved for certatin returns respecting tire numr- ber of convicts tranispor-tedI to British colonies in tire Years 1822 und 1823, distinguishing the niasles from tire females. Also :t retuirn of goodIs exportedl fromn I`ngland andic 'Sctland to New South Wlales anti 'itn Diemen's 14inid, withi their official value.-Orderedl. Mr. 'MANNING movedl for an acecouint of bounties and draw- backs ott goods exportedl front CGreat Britain and Ireland during the last Ii years.-Ormiered. Air. WV. SMITH presented a petition fromi tire foreign mnerchants of Norwichi, praying thiat tire hioise would conisider tire necessity of lorvering the duties on Freiicir wines. AlIr. T.1. WVILSO~N imoved that tire p7etitiots be referredI to thie com- oirittee on foreign tradle.-Ordered. Sir GEORGE CLERK broughit Lip tire repoirt of tire conirniittee on ttire weights arid mea-sures bill, whiich was received, and ttire bill was orderecd to be readl tliird titiie on Motiray, next. ilir KENNEDY presented a petition froim the boroughi of Ir- ving against tire Sicorch salmon fishieries bill. He also gave notice for !Vdnesday, tIre 2-thit of a miotion for a comitmittee to inquire into the state of tire sasirion fislieries of' Scotland, anti the lawrs re- lating thiereto, its rivicih miotion lie would persist,- unless Govern- ment wouild t-ake up tire subaject in thec mTeani tiune. Mr. DRUMMOND hioped that tire liron, gentlemian would not, by Iiris miotion, endeavour to irupetde the progress of tire bill now be- fore tire liouse, which was mierely in tire nature of police regulationsa to prevent the too rapid destruiction of the salmion in tire Tay. Ir. H UA E said it was iin vain, after tire nuiierous petiuons pre- sensted f'romn corporations and diiferent individuals residing all along the banks of thie Tay-, to hope that lire wouldl be allowsd to hiurry forward his measure, or tlrat he (Mr. Hunre) andl othiers whro had presented the petitions would not do their iutmiost to prevent that or any other bill fromi passing until there should have been the fullest inquiiry into tire subject. Tirey LORD ADVOCATE apprehenided that the petitioners nius;t be mistaken in the niotioni of thieir rights, as salinon (in Scotlanid) were royal fish. Lord A. HAsetLrox. Mlr. CURIVE.N. and Mr. LVI)SAsY, said a few words each, and thie petition wa-s ordered to be printed. Sir T. LETH BRIDGE presenited a petition from the silk weavers of Taunton, against any, alteration in tire silk larws. l,rrd BINNING presentedi a petition froii the victuallers of Rtochester and Cliatliam, against the excise licerices. Sir M. NV. RIDLEY presented a petition fromi IVall's-end, Nor- thumiberland against negro slavery. Mr.BUTH'EFAORTHI presented a similar petitioni fromi Dover. Sir Al. NV. RIDLEY presented a petition from the collieries of Newcastle, ameainst the duty oni coals carried coastwise. liord J. RUSSELLjinovecl for an address, to the Crown, to obtain returns of all persons sent ouit of the country under the alien act, between Jan. 1916 and Jan. M124. IRISR CORRESPONiDENCE. LordI ALT1IORIP rose atrd proceeded to subitait to tire hiouse the grounds of ttire myotion of wvhichi he had given notice, and if he suc- ceeded in the attainment of' his object, it would fttr-nish means wlinch wouldi enable ttire house to determuine wlhat mrea-ures would be the most likely toy restorequ1idt to that dIsturbedI couintry. Tire tu- mult whicfi prevailed in 1820 broke out in Galway, antI speedily extended itself through M ayo. The cdistuirbances were attributable to what was there called the system of Ribandmen. They ran so high, that an hon. friend of his (tile mienber for Galway) fou'nd it neces- sary to niove himself for the renewal of the itraurre'cton act, and that the powers of ttire act sihould he extended to that county. Tihe c-on- sequences were,numnerous trials and convictions,with somieexcsutions. Shiortly after, proclam-ation was i-adie by Mr. D'Arcy, the principal police msgistrate, offering an aminesty to the Ribandinerm, on condi- tion of their taking teohofaliance, renounicing thersce associtations, and delivering up their arms. A great many accepted the conditions, and since that time these counties had been remark- ably tranquil ; so naiuch so, that the orderly and good conduct of the poor had been much praised by the Government of Iceland. Hle would therefore move, in the first place, for copiesi of the proclamna- tion, and of every other docrinrient by which the arrangement had been effected. In Novemiber, 18122,'tdie Attorney-General of Ire- land instituted prosecutions againist soile persons for adIministering illgal oaths to the Ribandmnen. Two were convicted, and remainsd in the priions under sentence of transportation. A Air. Bennett. counsel for one oftshe prisoners, informied Mr. Gregory, secr etary to the Lord LieutenaLnt, that lire had cotunmunications of considera-ble imiportance to make upon the system of Ribandmen, and requesting an interview thereuipon. The letter was recived by Mlr. Giregory, who answered by another, datc4 Feb. 20, requesting Mr. Bennett to put iris coinimuniications inito writing . He did so, and he stated that the Riband-leaders ofAleath,'Westmeath, and Tripperary, wvere all ready to take tire oaths of al legiance, renounce the societies, and give up their ariais, on condition of Government extending the ani- nerty of Galrvay to thiem. Receiving zito instructions from the secretary, Mr. Bennett pressed for an aniswer, whichl Mr. Gregory assured him he shouild have on tire arrival or the Lord Lieutenant. In the mean timne a coDiiniiunication was inade to tire Government by Mr. Lubie and Mlr. Yore, two respectable priests (we belier's his lortllaiip called thein), stating that it wvould be asdvan- tageous to the Government to stay execution 'If the sentence on Thomas RHughes-, one of the prersons conivicted ;anti that by gtving time, they would be entabled to get at the secrets of tire IRibandmen throuh tire ex"'emination of Hughes. N tae a eundt tihe letter, and Hughes was sliortly after transported. In J1uly fol- lowing, MVr. Gregory was remiinded by Mr. B$ennett of what hiad taken place in Fe'bruary, before-to which Mir. Gregory replied, that he had no directions upon the subject fro-m the Lorni Lieutenant. HeI (Lord Althorp) was at a loss to aCCOUnt for the conduct of the Irishi Government iin the affair, It appeared to him extra- ordinary that they did not seize with eagerness so favour- abean opportunity f'or putting dowrn the disturbancs titid rtoigthe country to trailquilhitv-that no advanta,t haee shiould be taken of it. Probably t1ii offirers of the Irish Govern- ment would be able to explain their conduct by sa$'?aclory"e,jonv. But, c3ndiullY sPeak-iog, it did irnpress upOn his miind strongly, that the explanation would not be very favourable to the character of' the Government. It was strange enoligh that no an* wer-should have been returned to the commi-unic-ation called for by Air. Greory fronm Mlr. Bennett, and still more strange that thev shoutld not nave pre.. ferred the conciliatory arrangement submitted, to the attempt ro at.. lencing the disturbances by the stronig arm of' the law. The Go.. vermment knew the effect of the ste p taken in I82--that the line of conduct then adopted had produced no evil, and that the couintry had been tran' uilli7ed. It was desirable that this iuformation should be Iaz9 before the house, thiat they might be ens. bled to judge if the disturbed state of Irelaud could not be card b adptig te cnciiatry oure,rather than bY ap. pealng ontnualy o th foce f ams.He could not antici.. patetheanswr wich oul ~e ive bythe right honourable secrtar forIreand butin he hpe hatit would be satisfactory, he bgge leae t mov fo theprouction of the correspondence 182, respecting the suppression of, an an met o h Riband Id Isin Ireland ; also a mensorial fro esr.Lbead Yore to t?te Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, on the case of Thomas Hughes; also asy correspondence between the 1Irish GovernmenE and rnagi. strates of the counties of Mayo and GaiLway, respecting an aminesty to the R-ibandmnen in 1820. Mlr. GOULBURN, being in the situation wlhichi made him answerable upon the subjectof the motion to thie house, wished to satersa few reasons why the production of the papers shiould not be called for. He first miade some allusion to the hindrance put in the way of constinunication with his office by the utiprosperous weather. As to the amnesty in 1820, in the absence of his papers all, he couid say, wAas, that he wast wicthout any inifonnation upon it;, he did not know thtat there had been such an amnesty. For the subject of thie correspondence, he was prepared fo take his share of thte b lame-the teal questioni being, whet'her tht Government of Irelasrd would have been justified in pardoninig a man whiose offence was ad- ministering illegal oaths to engage parties in the mOst violent pur- poses. The motion only went to the proauction of papem : but every one miust see that the rual gist of the miotion was to throw blame on the Government for not hiaving adopted a mnore conciliatory line of cotiduct. Ilie woulct state the real case to the house. Thiere were formied illegal associations of' Ribandinen, boundI togetner, not f'or innocent objects, but objects the mnost niischievous.-t.o subvert the established constitution of the country. From the very constitution of these associations, it must he extremne.. IY difficult for Government to come at their secrets ; many times there was no other clue but the confession of one guilty used against others who were equally guilty. In the beginning of 1823, Gyovern.. ment had a schieme susbntitted to them of' bringing one offender to trial-niot a subordinate member-not one drawn in by inadvertence or ignuorance of what he bad to do--not one of low andI inferior rank, but one who was extremnely importanit in the society_-a leader--one who was adlmitted by the parties who applied for the extension of Roval inercy to him to be a great and influcntial personi in his sphere of ac!ion. He was tried and convicted, and the question was,, if the Go.. verniment had actedl wrong in refusing to extend to him tile mercy of thle Crown. A petition for thlat purpose was forwarded to the Govern.. iyint, in whiich the grounds litid were two-.fold ; one was, that lie liad secrets to conmintinicateiniportatit for the Government to know- thle other was, that should he he pardoned, tie Riband leaders, on ofe,rng themn a general amnnesty, would surrender their armis, re- notince their societies, and take the oaths of allegiance. In the pe- tition presented, the parties stated that the individual in question was the leader of the assoc-iation. It appeared, therefore, from their owni showving, that if there was one individual more fitting than ano- ther to be selezcted for punishmnent, that man wvas the indiv,idual. The Governmient was tol d, that if ths person was allowed to go and be.. ra=gethe different RibantImeni, his inflinence was such that th soitin inight have beeti dispersed. The noble lord at the' of the Government in Ireland was at all timnes degirous of exerting that brightest prerogative of the Crown, mercy but lie cotuld not be guilty, of' such puerile imibecility as to abandon time interests of justice on suchi grounds as had been stated in the case of this, individual, In conclusioni, he trusted the house wouldI concur with himi in thiinkinig thie miotion unnecessary. Mr. ABIERCROMBY agreed with the right honourable gentle- mani, thiat if the proposition were such as had been represented by hiim, the Governmient were perfectly justified in what they had done;. but he difrered with himi when he said that he woul d not give time houise atm opportunity of jud(ging. Before he could assent to such EL stateiment of tIme proposition as made on behalf of this person, lie must have the proposition before him, lie had no doubt that his, noble friend (Lord Althorp) hian seen the copies of the cor- -respondenice, and hie (-)r. Abercromby) was justified in statinig, that there was, not otie condition or qualification of any kind annexed. Ifst overnnment had any othier proposi- tion madle to thiem, then they hadl done wiselvy ; hut why, should the house not have! the nmeatis of' judging? Where roula be the miischiief of that ? It could not be said thiat the sub'ject was uniim.. portant, because if the proposition were such as he believed it to be (without aiiy qualification annexeti), thien it wasthe duty o1'thie Go.. verznment to'have adoptedl it. 'I hecre was this remiarkable circumi- stance also, which cotnfirmned htini in the opiniion that there was no condition a-nnexed :-On the first conmtmiunication being miade, an answer is received, not that time lproposition was so mtonstrouiS, so un-~ tenable, that the Government could not for a mnonient listen to iti but that lie (Mr. Gregrory) woudd take tue Lord Lieutenazti's plea- sure noon in, and whien' the application was subsequently renewed, ieansawer again wvas no oilier than that thev still waited ttimte reply of the Lord Lieutenant. W1as thi comipatible with thle statement of' thie riglht honourable gentlemnan ? Certainly tiot. But if there were nierecot-respotndence, let it comie out; othier- wise the Government wvere certninly put oni thecir defence to show thiat thiey had not neelected a'n opportunity of1 putting an end to thie associations of Riband men for it oughit never to be forgot- ten, that the root of all the evils of Ireland was that one portion of thle country, wvas arrayed against the othier. Iloere seas, an opportunity for Alinisters to put'an endI to one of the parties, and it was their dluty to have atcted upon it with vigour, but it was allowed to. sink withiout notice or answer. r.I,TKIiTTrsaid lie much ti lonibted whether the production of these papers were not matter of courtesy - and to call for a cor- responidence in order to see whether thiere mnight not he something on whiich to found a charge, was certainly , rather an uinusual pro. ceedinig. He believed, that before papers could lbe called for, there mnust be some vrinta Peui,- case against thie GOv,ern.. went, hut lie putt it to the hiouse, whether, from any thing whiicl hiad fallen fromi the noble lord, there could he aLny ground for such an idea. The person alluded to hiad br-ett, wvith the adlvice of all thet legal persons, arraigned as onie of the principal inovers in a cn;spiracy. It wias scarceIt' possible to snippose the extent of mnischief that a person in the Ilimnble stationt of this Huzhes was capaible of. Hle was employed in swearing in the lower 'ordere of Dublin to a secret association, the parpose of which must he to uin- dleimine thie Government of the counny. The schemes of these persons were wild, impracticable, andi chimerical, but it was not the less necessary to check thieii. This person was convictedi axid after this opportuiiitv liacl occurred of niakitig An ex;.inple which was due to justice_ an application was miade t,t thle Lord Lieutenant, resting on ito othler authority thanti thazt of the genitlemlati who had been concerncd as counszel forthie prisonier otthis trial, It would have been certainly rathier extraordinairy, if the,Lord ic,iutenaitbe ad enteredinito atreat'y wvith this bandlof co,n.pirattors throuf lithe nietliumi of this gentlemr,an, biit he hadi'otrtunately fatiled in establihlitig his credentials; or, in- steaid of ant anmnestv, the y'rorees,intg would have led to a very dif.. ferenit result. ll'itlimout meaning to speak with any, disrespect of a mecmber of the prof'ession to whichi lie hiniseltf belonged, hie must sa,thiat great inconvenience had been felt by the Govemnient from having before listeneti to propositions of so vaguie a nature. Thle hiouse would observe, that the documents, called for were not solely in the possession ofthe Government. The noble lord (Altbioru) scent- edl perfectlyv well acquainted witl, thern,, and hr G'Alr. Plulnketi)jwished thiat hehad statedthiem iltore indetaiI, when they would have appeared not to contain thiat unobjectionable propOsition whichi the noble lor liatd been ledt to believe. But arguing it on the noble lord's own statementt, here were persons comubined in an illegal association. If thev had chosen to abandon it, what was to prevent themi doing so. wit6eut any stipmulations withi the Governnient ? But supposing the pardon Of Rughesiwas not to he the condition, it must then have been put thtus n-Here arc a certain numiber of timis body wvho are willinig to give uit their arnus and abandon these associations, on condlition of having asit amnnesty buit if the amnesty be not granted, then, say they-, we will not give up our arnts, and will continue to associate. WVere they to be allowed thus to beard the Government? Wiould they not, if they hiad listened to. such a proposition, have disrobed themi- selves of their authority, and deprived themselves of the support of' every, respectable titian in the country? Some condition therefore must have beeni annexed, eithier tilat Hughes shiould not he punished, or that titers should be an amnesty to thea body. Titers seas another cir- cumtmaance toshow this. A part of the sg stem ofthese persons was to get arnus, andto a certain extent theyhaldeffected their object, but not so as to render them formidable ; howvever, some armns they had, but no prop ositionl was made ill the first inistance to give up their anus. 1ould it not appear in the correspondlence, that if they' ever made such an offer, it was retracted ; fur no arms had been given up, antd no persons had come in to take the oath of allegiance ? He(31r. Plunkettl quits ageed with the noble lord , that no honest laweyer could inake an), istinction between illegal associations. Itt was no, defence to say thiat time objects were defensive. He could nor listen to the allegation that it was necessary to have Orangemen to put down Ribatidmen. They must be put aownby theclaw,sad not by lw- lessness. IHe thouight no casechad been made out tojusehf,ethe moti6i. Lord ALTRORP and Mr. AJAnTil; rose together, bat Mlr. 31IAR.. Tix% havn caught the Spveak-er's eye, the noble lord sat down. ilr. . ARTIN rhb'ught, that esen takinig the statentent of the noble lord for granted, there was no ground for putting the correspondence on the table. L,ord ALTH ORP said, in the correspondence put into his hands, there was no condition whatever. Witlt the permission of ties house he would read it. N.I- "Fbur 8 8' "1Sir,-l have a communication to make for the information of his Excellency tee Lord Lieutenant, relative to the illegal society of persons styling themselveis Ribandmten of the countv and city ef Dublin. you wiil(ldo ins the hionour to acquaint me when ana to whiom this commnunication is to be made- "I hiare the honour to be, &c. P"ItVW. BEIKNETT215 To i'n. Gregory, Esq., Private Secretary, &c." No. 2. " Dublin Castle, Feb. 20, 1823. "Sir-I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 18th inst., which has been submitted to the l.ord Lieutenant; and I am directed to acquaint you, that if you wiU be so good to commit to writing any coniniunication on the subject to which you allude, and transmit it to me, it shall be immediately brought under his Excel- lency'D consideration. ' I have the honour to be, &c. To R. W. Bennett, Esq." " 1P. GREGORY." No. 3. To Wim. Gregory, Under-Secretary, *c. *' Februar 23, 1823. " Sir,-1 have the honour to acknowl~edgeyour letter aothe20th inst., requiring me to commit to writing the commuiication to which I sl- ludetl in that letter, and which I had to -make on behalf of the Ri- bandmsen of the countv and city of Dublin. Having frequently been employed for them as counsel, I madle use of the opporeunities thus afforded to me, to endeavour to ascer- tain the real ob,jects of that society. I was assured that the princi- ple of their union was whollv defensive against the Orange par. They informed Ills, that the Riband system commrenced in Armagn wehere outrage of a very sanguinart' claracter was aleged to tave been conmmitted against thc C,atholics, by the Orange parts', writh impunitv!; aildthis, it appears, created abitter spiritofretaliation in the minds of the sufferers, which ultimately produced the Ribahd Association. * Persuaded that this wvas a correct representation of the prinici. ples and views of this body, and that tiey were not hostile to the constitution or the King, it occurred tome, that recenit circun stances connected with tbe prosecutions of the rioters at the theatre pre- sented an opportunity (if properly acted on) of reconciling tbis so. ciety to tlms Govemmtnent. i' Under this impression, I succeeded in opening a 0ommutica. ti0lvwith their leaders, Principally thrologh the meaisulA of Thomas Hughes, now unider isentence Of transportation for adIministering the R.ibandrnan's oath. In corsequence of efFecting this communica- tion, two most respectable Catholic clergymen, distinguished for loyalty ana intelligence, were deputed on their part to confer with zne, on the subject,; and after reveral meetings, for some weeks P4a1t, I became fully convinced that thiere existed, on thleir part, 11 rincere disposition to affectionate loyalty to his Majesty and the Present Government of Irelend. And, were all Other proofls want- ing, a circuimtance occurred, during these conferences, whichi ap- Peared quite decisive. At that period some malignant and exag- gterated rutmours respectin~ the nature and extent of the Kin&'% late indisposition were industriously circulated in Dublin, on whichoc casion these clergymen informed mne that the despair of the delegates from the Ribandmnen wait so excessive, as nearly to put an end to alfurther proceedings as Useless. Bitt, upon the assurance of bis Mlajesty's restoration to healith,'the matter waa resumed with In.- creased ardour and activity. I1 suggested to them'the propriety, and perhiaps importance at tltat time, of' comling foarwd and offering to take the oath of alle- glance, to rer.ounce all illicit associations, and to give up thieir aruis: 2n I now? have the satisfactionto state through their authorized agents that thlese suggestionzs have been embracest witlh enthusiasm ; and i amn now Commissioned by them to communicate to you, for the in- for-mation of' his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant, that they are ready and anxious to come forwarti and subscribe to the terms upon o-. taming amrnesty. "1 I have to address you last.-I am insitrticted to state thiat tire mnembers of' Kildare, Mle'ath, West AMeRth, King's and Quieen's counties, an.d Tipoerary, have desired to be Included in this commiu. nlcation ; and iso aoubt is entertained that the whoklbody of' Riband- mneni wi follow the examiple. This numbe of 'tnized Ribandmses in the county and city of Dublin is stated to be T13,OOO, anid those in the countrY very considerable. I have the honour, &c. R. Wt. B. MyWm de regSi- -cA No. 4. "1 Feb. 28, 1823. numbr ofperons from different parts of' thecuutr~, n aditonto hos w metioedto you, have called on u tokno wht hs ben onereltiv tothe proposition you madeto M. Oegnr, lat wek? e be leve to state that they aremos anios t carytha prpoitin itoeffect. WVe request tha yo wil edeaourto btan te asw er of Government as soon as Possible. Withi best wishes, yours, &c. "A. LUBIE. To R. W. Bennett, &c. &c. "1 W. YORE." NO. 6. "Feb. 28, 1823. Sir,-Not having had the honour of receiving any answer to my cOmmunication of the 24th [this should have been 22d] inst. relative to the Ribandmen, and great anxiety having been expressed by these people for the determination of Governiment thereon, I think it mny iluty to call your attention to the enclosed letter from the Cler- ~gYman to whom I before alluded. To W. Gregory, &c. R. W. B." No. 6.-" Dublin Castle, M'sarch 3, 182a. "Sir,-I submitted your letters of the 24th and 28th ult., re- sative to the Ribandnien, to the Lord Lieuitenanit, and whenever I receive his Excellency's Commands, I thall not fail to comimunicate them to you-.. have tbe honour, &c. To R. W. Bennett, &c. &c. IV. GREGORY." No. 8. "MDarch, 1823. May it please your Excellenicy-From the nmoment Counsellor Bennett communicated to us the gratifying hope that it might meet your Excellency's benevolent views to extend your miercy, anid bring under our M1ost Gracious Sovereign's protection the Ribandosen of Ireland, we lost not a moment in using all our exertions to bring about so fortunate ani occurtence--an ocecurrence which we look. upon rm~e of the greatest importance to this divided country. Wle can the fullest confidence assure your Excellency, that thesedeluded were by no means actuated by any hostile views to our Most Gra- cious Sovereign's or Your Excellency's mild and conciliating Go- vernment: on the contrary, they arelylfo principle, anti as far as we could learn from themn, theiritno, in this illegal associa- tion, was to protect themselves fromi a fato ht persecuted and oppresed thiem. In our communicationsitthm we found them willing and eager to avail themselves of your Excellency's clemency in procuringtbortheniour lfost Gracious Sov,ereign's pardon. And -we beg, leave to suggest to your ExceLllency, that it will serve, in a powerful degrre, to increase their confidence in us, were your Excel- lency pleased, if not to extend pardon to Hughesi now tindler sen- tence of transportation in Kilmainhanm, at least to suspend hiis trans. r,issioa to Cork for some time. He hias greatly contributed to the chiange that has taken place in the sentiments of these misled men. In sword, we could have no communiication with them were it not for him. Hloping that your Excellency will take this our humble siuggesion into consideration, we remain, &C. "A. LU BI E. "To his Excellency, &c. W. YORE." No answer was give'n to thisi, and Hutghes wvas transported.l No. B. ", July 1, 18P23. "11 Sir,-6n the 24Ith (22dl) and 28th of February layst, I had the honour of submitting thirough you a commiunication to thie Lord Lieutenant, from the Ribandmen ; and on the 3d of Mlarch, you in- formed me dusat whenever y-ou received his Excellency's commands on this subject, you would commiunicate them to me. Having received rno answer after such a lapse of time, I a-ix apprehensive that thi.s matter (under toe pressure of imnportant affairs) mnay have escapedl his Ex cellency's recollectioni ;lItherefore beg leave to request you will call the Liord Lieutenant's attention to the subject, aiid acquaint me whiethier it is the pleasure of Government to give any answer to tlieapplicatioii of the Ribaidmnen. I"rhiouigh they -were extremnely, anxious to know theas ntiments of Government on thteir case, they diii not wish to press for an answer until certain discussions whith~ have since occuipied Parliament hian terminated. I lhave the honour to be. &c. inV. Grcgorvy, Esq. "11 . NV. BENNETT." N O. ! . "Dublin Castle, July 23, 18'23. Sir,l subitted your letter of thie 16thi instant to the LordI Lieutenant, and liave not any commands fromi his Excellency to re- turn an axiswer. I have the hionour to be, &c. "R. W. 13ennertt Esq. " W. GREGORY." He (L'rd Altliorp) agreed with tie right honourable gentleman opposite, that it would have been highly improper in the Govern. mciit to have enterrd into any nezotiatioin with the Ribandmen oni -an understantding suich as hadl been stated ; but he did think that when- an opportunitv of' this ~ort was given to them to get thlese peo. pie %o give up their ;rini andI take the'oath of alle-iance, they were culpable in not havinr, av ailed themselves of it. Mr. H. (I. B]ENN ET thiouglit it was shiown dlistinctly thiat there was sonic communication which di(I not form part of that read by the noble lord. for it wa-s qjuite clear thecre was not in thiat a single ieord to warrant thie statemenits miadle by the right hon. gent.opposite. Did hon. gentlemnen opposite mean to snv, that these were not true copies of the correspolndence that was s'tated to have passed ;? If they did, let them- say so at onice ; it' they did not, wotuld not their proceedings warranit all inferenCe that the right hon. gentleman hatl sonic documents behindl which lie wislied to conceal ? Ife 1hd no) doubt that uponi tlhis, as well as upon all other occasions of a sinsilar nature. [Iis noble friend (Lord Althiorp) wouild dover hat iis. ters wouldi deny hini the uiocunients which he hiad so clear a right to .exet.(reof Question, question.") Strangers verre le5avng the gallery upon the order to withdraw, when M~r. C. II. HIUTCHINSON rote, and after avowing his disan. pointnient at the government ofrthe Marqui3s Wellesley in IrelandL_ a government from which lie lhad hoped so inuch-and expressinig his conviction thiat the intcrest whiich his nioble friend had m-aniifest- ed in so d;fficult and delicate a question as the present wais a most fortUnate omen for Ireland, and likely to beflo(Iwtihems beneficial consequences, lie si that~ tie fo llowed with thie motrstin siituation of being obliged to give his vote againstamotion which he was sure hacilbeen broughit forward by his noble friendlupon the mosteni- lightenedand meritorious nio)tivLs.At the sanetilme, heshou]ld not be performing his duiyvin that eonscientiousspiritwhichhe had hiiherto) -crdeavoured to evince in Parliament, if be did not say, that upon the present occasion, hie thiought hiis noble friendl had not made out ai case for the production of these papiers. ( Hear, hear.) While lie couldl stand there, neither as thle advocate for the Irish Goverrnieni, nor the advomate of the noble mnarquis, he must confes9s, that fromn the matter already submitted to the house, anid from what he knew of his own country, lie honestly believed that no Go0vernment ought 'O Capitulate in that part of the eiinpire to any such body of men as that ini ouestion. If his noble friend should press his motion to a di- vision, fie should be compelled to vote agafnst it, however sincerely he must regret the necessity he felt hims-elf under of taking such a, course. Mr. PEEL really thought that the hon. memnber for Shrewsbuiry hiad drawn one of thle most singular inferences that Could posibly be deduced, from the last senitence of the speech of the noble l.ord. Be- cause the noble lord, as it appeared, hail not seen a document which biad been advertedl to, the loniourable gentleman was leased to suppose that no suich thinig ever existed. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord at the head of the Government of Ireland had formed hit judgment on this case uPon the most imnpartial and deli. berate view of the whole matter. To himn (Ar. Peel) that noble personage appeared not only to have been completely warranited in not interposing tie prerogative of' mercy in the case ofiHughes, but he tholught also, that the noble marquis wotold have been guilty of a gross violation of his duty if he had consenited to enter into any amnesty to these deluded men, or to osaintain irny th~ng like a nego- tiation with them. But after all that had been said about the papiers whiich had been read, it might be exceedingly proper that the house shruld hear a little about one which had'not been read and it was the meire essential that that Paper should bt noticed, in order that no errDneous impress1ion upon) this subject mnight find its way abroad. He would oniy Premise, that if inl this czase, thiey were to call for statemenxts made by the Counsel for offenders, not a man would be convicted ini Ireland for the future without praying that the same course might be taken in his cae ~hear, hear) ; not a single conviction would be recorded with. or e preliminary step of that boust's being called upon to examine thie diffuse, garbled, and ex-parte statements (for such it must necessarill be), of the prisoner who had been condemned, a-id the unsuccessfu counsel who had defended him. Among the papers which had been brought under the consideration oDf the Marquis Wellesley was one from a Roman Catholic barristcr, a gentleman named T-auke Plunkett. L,o,d3' TIORP11 Ihave never se-en it." I%fr-PVrt--ne noose lor sadh ha nee senta etr and doubtless that' or ai c a never seen that letter; and doubtless that was ample vindication for the noble lord's not stating any thing about it to the house; but it would be allowed that it was an equal vindication for his (MIr. PCel's) now bringing it to their notice. MAr. Luke Plunkett, ender date of the 24th of Februa- ry, stated, " that he had made it his business to see Hughes in gaol, after he had been convicted; that he saw him in presence of the gaoler; and that he undertook to hold out some hopes of mercy to him on the part of Government, if he would become the instru- ment of his associates giving up their arms- or, if not of giving up their arms, of inducing the leaders to come for- ward." (FHear. hear.) In either of these cases Mr. Luke Plun- kett, acting upon his own authority, had thought proper to hold out 6ome hopes of meercy. Why, what alternative did this pro. ceeding hold oat to the noble marquis, but to detend lo the utter- most thesentence ofthe law and the province of Government, which an individual had thus undertaken the conditional exercise of? But the gentlemaan, in another part of his letter, added_.. as to Hughes, whatever might be his ultimate fate, do at least endeavour to exert your i9fluence with the AMarquis Wellesley, that he may be detained at Kilmainham till the transports whici are to convey the convicts can come rounu to Cork; which I aEn informed will not be the case till, &c." Nsw, when such an application was made, what did the noble marquis do ? What did lie know ? Why he knew that the immediate execution of the sentence upon this man would d<3 more good, and produce more effect than anv other measure whatever, and ie immediattly directed his removal from Kilmainham. (Hear.) EverY body at all acquainted with the state of Ireland must knoir, that the least appearance of vacillation on the part of the Government was productive alway s of intinite mischief. And in what case was it calledt for in this iostance ?-on behalf of some miserable and deludede victim to the arts and practieofethers ? No;* but of the mnan who had oryanized the proceedincs of his essociaees.wlro had been the oiginator of all these ottences, and who had at last come under the hands of Justice. (Hear, hear.) And then the proposition to be had unaertaken to hold out hopes of mercy to him. could it be doubted, unider such circumstances, that the noble m rquis was quite right itt resisting every Idod' of -attemypt art wbat had beerr properly termed capitulation ? And what would have followed, -sup- posing that Mfr. Luke Plunkett's propo-sition hiad been adopted~_ what would have followed upon such a promise of suyrendeiing armsR, made by suchb a party ? Did not every body know what the arms would be ? From ius own exp'iece he (Air. Peel) ctouhl suggest, that they miight turniout to beabut 11 stoc'ks of guns with.. out barrels or, it mnight be, 1 1 -barrels without stocks. (A laugh.) He felt Perfectly sure, that the armsi to be deliverea up woulld have been perfectly useless--as they always were in simiila'r cases ; for they were generally, suc'h ase had been kept for a long time in bomne bog, or some out-house. (A laugh.) But anoz thter passge that he sliould proceed to read would cormpletely sus- tain the statements of his right hon. friend. Mir. Luke Pluinkett proceeded thus--" If Hughes should be saved, -or if his ptunish.. ment should be commnuted to iinprisonment, I have ho objection to accorhpaniy himT to aniy part of the coontry wherei his influence iqid presence caji be useful to put down that disoord which haslso lately raised its hideous crest, &-c."1 (Laughter, Land cries of "1 Hear'.") He put it to the house, whether it wou ti have been enduied thait MVr. Hughes should thus be elevated into the character of: a negotiator between the Governmrent of Ireland and these Ribanaijirn, ind be permitted to travel hialf over the country tt ith Mrt.. Litk;e'Plunkett, preachiniig to the people the propriety of t1eir-gilvifilg: their arms ? (Hear.) The noble lord had red itprarp fErom the coirununica. tion of a Mir. Lubie, who wspleasedEc s9ta1te~, th;tl tfiese'nien "1en- tertained no hostile view, agpinst our most gracious Sovereign." Nobhostile views! I Why tbeY''re-found in-srmn-.--they were ara- ed against the peace of the' roilrty; and yet thit Milr. LuSsle, in the amiable simiplicity of his Ileart (a laugh), could not imnagine -not he, how it could be supposed that they eneraie designs of so dangerous a nature; or whty, after th a a bee put upon his trial and convicted, the Governmnent should anot be called upon to account for not having interoosedE, on such a case, the prerogatiYe of mercy. (Hear, hear.) Up6n the wrhole view of the case, he shoald certinly give the mnotion his most dleciaed opposition. TIhe gallery was then cleared for a division ; but was re-openied after the lapse of a few minutes ; and we were informed that the mno- tion had been neg.atived withiout a division. The nois!e occasioned by the return of strangers into the gallery, was so great as to prevent us, for somie time afterwards, froni collecting the proceedings9 Of the house with any degree of distinctness. Dilr. GOULBURN was understood to postpone his motion for leave to bring in a bill to amendI the Irish constable act, and a bill relative to Irish Governmnent securities. M5r. R.. IMARTIN obtained leave to bring in a bill to pevent unnecessary expenses in the prosecution of actions at law in iead BEER AND IMALT LAWVS. Mlr. STUART WORTLEY requested the hsonouTable mnember for Abingdon to allow his motion upon the order of the day, forthe second readling of the game laws' amendmient bill, to take precedtlnce of thec hon. memiber's intended motion en the laws relating to beer and malt. Mlr. Al ABIERLY' was understood to ekpress his readiness to ac- quiescee in the bonourAble gentlemian's propositivin; antI his hope, that as he hiad already postponed this mnotion to mneet the convenli- ence of the Chancellor of thie Exchiequer, that right honooTable gen- tleman would allow it to take precedence of any business he might intend to bring forward eli Moenday. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated. that as his honourable friend bed certainly been so good as to postpone his motion for his accommnodation, he (the Chancellor of the Exche- quer) was very willing to let it take the precedence, on Mvoniday, of any business connected with the department to which he belonged mnore especially as he presuimed the discussion would not irun to any great length. On Friday (this clay) week, it was, however, his intention to stibmit some proposition on the same subject to which the hon. gent 's motion related. (II ear.) Mlr. ARIAERIM Y's observation, inrieply. wasq inaudible, GAMVE L,AWS' AAMNbM~EN,L\T. Upon the motioni of Mlr. S. WVORTLEY, theorder of the day was the red fr te scon redin ofthegame lawsi' amendinent bill. The on.gen, stted(aswellas e culdhear) thxat some objection havng eentakn t on pat o th bil, e had introduced a clause theobjct f wichwasto eseve ndprotect certan rights to the Crow, upn th tam fooing n wich they had heretofore sub- Sir J. SHELLEY was disposed to give this measure his decided Opposition. There were but two good grouintIs that could fairly be assigned by any host, gene, for repealing the old law, and substitut- ing another in its placeI it imust be shown, either that tile existing law wvas unjust and oppressive, or that it was inefficient fbr the pur. poses with which it had been enacted. (Hear.) Now no one coultd dieny that whenever any evils a-rose in the nation, whbether real or imaginarv, the righit of petitioning Parliament for a re- mnedy was 'always retortedl to. Had not the table of that house, for insta'nce, groaned, session after session, beneath petitions for reform-for relief from agricultural distres-for remis- sion of taxation ?But, inasmuch as within his own knowledge the-e hand never been one single petition presented to that house against the existing gamne laws, he was justified in asunting and asserting that those laws were not oppressive. It had been sid that this was a inodifiedi measure; but let honourable gentlemen be as- sured, that if the barrier that now subsisted were once passed, it would be utterly impossible for theni ever to return to the point from whience thecY had set our. Another bill after this, and another still stronger, would in successive sessions of Parliaiment be intro- dimeed, until, at lenigth, all restrictions would be donie away withi. (Hear.) He mutt be allowed very miuchi to doubt, wlhether either his hon. friendI (lr. S. Wortley),'or those other hon. members who were ainong thie zealous supporters of this new measure, would be prepared to go) to this length). A law must be bad that was to be founded, as this would be, upon partial or upon impracticable priin. ciples. *An act of' Parliament mnight be passedI for the general pre. siervation of thezgame throughout tli,, kingdomi; but liow could it be possible to pass a law, in'tended to give a property in an animal which, by nature, deflict all hiuman c'ontrol, and couild never in that tense become! a property? IHe maintained that they might as well brinig in a law to limit and( regulate the mir'iration of wood. ccks, as one tRat shouild establisis a right of "property in the birds themselves. WQhat property could there be i n that whicih in 12 hours ntight chiange its hiabitation four..and-twenty times ? His hosoitabl frendwishedI to assimnilate the gamne laws of Englanid to the cotish amelaws ; btit, though i te game laws of Scotland migh bextr~oelgood fur that co'intry,where properties were usually large, anti w ere ttr was is vast dleal of waste land rtmiey would he very iliconvenicntly applieti to Englandl. In Engfand land was, gelterally speakitig, so much s%ubdivided into small properties, that it was mrostly impossible for alt estate to maintsain so miuch game as to keep any timing like a propertyv in it. The difficulty of breedinig game was mitch ntore felt, tliter-efore, in EniglandI than in Scotland, on accoumit of rthe subdivision of land. But,~ suppose a person to be posNessed of a little waste landI upois rthe confine, of a large preserve anld an extensive estate, be wouild hiave nothiiig to do but to plant it, or even to sow it in a certain way, and he wou'ld find that lie could by possibility convert his land to a better profit; for all the game wouldl flock to hlis corni or his new ptlantation, attd by this pro- position they would become his p4roperty. But suppose that Par. liament were to tuake gaiins propterty ; would it be just or fair th;,t a man wlio ntiglit possess a certain number of acres should be said to have a property in more game than all lilt land would sup- port? (Hear. If'tke piresent mneasure -were proceetded withi, suchi a mian would be able to possess itundreris of headst of game, wh'ose own property niigLht never have contributed a single leveret to the cottbnton stock. (Hear.) The chief arg-ument in favoar ofthis salle of gatite had bee~n, that inonietIi tico oughit to be enabled to buy it, and that their money wouldI alvhays procure it, under any circum- st-ances. But he (Sir John Shelley) maintained, that if in England titere was space for breeding a sufficient quanitity of game to allow of the monietd men laying out their money in tts purchase, thiev ought to exptend some part of their wealth in the purchase of land itself' (Hear.) Thien they would know what amouznt of gamethey could raise (a laugl',; and with the other advantages of country gen- tlemien, they would acquire some knowledIge of Poor-rates aitd taxes. (A laugh.) Hlis hionourable friend had 'proposed a Very stronig clauseya~gainst the man who, being unqualihedl, was founti shooting by dy To find a mian shooting by day over hiis property was a circumsgtance that miglit ruffle the serenity of ilts hon. friend a little; but it was not a P.1an of this description that did the mischief of whiceh country, gentletmen had sometimes to complain. H-e was to bt considtTed as doing no more liarin, than one additional sports. mnan cooling down to lils hon. friend's mansion. The mischief was always done by the poacher-the thief whosntared his game by night. Did his boo, frienld suppose that the poacher, if game were made property under this bill, would all of a siudden be mnoral-struck, and reason thus with hiiitseslf,..." As game is now property, I will not touchi it, because I shall be depriving another of the vale he is en. titled to receive for it ?'~ Vould he not rather say, " As game cart now be sold, Itwill getat this; and getting into somne roatt or fbot- path, I shall emily know where to meet the dealer-, who will pr chiase of me without a question ?" Last year, he (Sir J. Seley) had entered his protest against the satte of gamne. ;He aid not like to Convert that into matter of poor paltry profit., which, under present clircutmstances, was aconspliinent both to the giver and to th eCreever. i-ic sould, however, say no more at present on this part of the subject, except to remind the house, that the poacher would always undersell the fair trader; because he would continue to get his game by.such means as enabled him, at a lower price, to realizesa greater profiL. The hon. bart., after adverting to the great advantage which the kingdom derived from the residence of her country gentlemien utpon their estates, expressed his entire uniwillingness to consent to such an entire chanFe in those ancient laws. He would ask-had not this country risen to its hi,ghest pinnacle of glory during the existence of those laws ? (Continued lauglhter.) Let not the house be led away by a false species of'philanthropy to adopt so mischievous a measure. He was convitlced that they would be dloing no goiod by giving their sanction tpoi, except to the poacher, the thief, and the attorney. (Liear, hear.) Upnthese considerations, he begged leave to propose, by way of* amnendment, that the bill s'hould be read that day six months. An Hon. MEMBnER from under the gallery, seconded the amend. ment. He expressed his surprise that his hon. friend, whowa usually se little of a radical, should come down to the house, and proposetodo aws ,root and branch, with a sys-tem of laws that had eitdslong 'megen tlemen had been so sanguine as to im)a- gine that the bill wou.ld hate the effactof dofing away with --ahin- .EgeEer ibut so Iong as there were ta-kers-o-r bu-y-ers,.- thee wul be poachers. The billumight, indeed, ultimately do away with poaching altogether; but not until there should be no more game e in the country for the poachers to take. His hon. friend had stated that he would ratlier there should be no same at all, than that it should lead to tllose scenes of bloodshed anr violence which were of so frequent occurrence. But did they really imagine, that in the space of two years, for example, those who had been acecustomed to poaching would return to orderly habits, and become satin (if they had ever been so before) good members of society? The hon. gentleman expressed his opinion, that the house, by Dassing this measure would do more to demoralize the lower orders; than could be done La any other mnode which it was nossible to devise. Itlr. Cf ARL,ES ROSS stated that the saiie reasons whicli had induced some gentlemen to oppose this measure, would prompt him to give it his support. The hon. baronet (Sir J. Shelley) had said that no petitions had been presented against these laws ; but did he mean to infer from that single fact that it was proved that the lower classes were contented with them ? It-was, unfortunately, most true that these laws vere exceedingly unpopular ; and breaches of these, as of the laws about smuggling, had ceased to be considered as moral offences. 'rho question upon which the house were now deliberating was not whethergame should or should not be sold, but whether it was expedient to authorize that to be done bv law which was notoriously done at present in spite of law. (ftear, hear.) U'hen this subject was last under tne discussion of the house, con- siderable doubt was expressed whether the evidence given by the pouterers and dealers was in all respects to be depended on. But nehad himself examined the books of some of them, and had ex- tracted an account, not only of the quantity ofega sold by them in the year, but in a day. These books could not be deceptsve in any way, because thtey had been made up before the comnmittee was cahIed for * in opeeday lie *ound that there hnad becql sold 10 birds;1 on another, lit; on atotlsEr4.ft; 1 allotiser 16; mails. wonulnot trouble the house by goling ughZa his lIISt What;:be hiad stated Yould show the enormous extent to which game was sold a inoss- dpo every, day in the season; in shoort, as-one of the -wirnegssj had told the coriumitte, "cif the game laws were even written In blood5 they would be constantl evaded,;" so many were the individuAlat of immense, wealth, who, though not possessed of landed propety, ua- turally desired the luxury of game. ie .was a curiZis fact, thnt the great coistutmers of this luxury, hoswever,were to be obund among the rumnor tradesmen of London. Tlhey puirchased more than any other clags of psople. The recommendiatioii of the present bill apyeared to hiim to. lie in this that it would go-far to disebusragi ~oichsi:g It was a main principle of legislation, cdnfirmed by the eviodence of 2ll hlstr,ry that to rule by reason, and nlot by *iolence, Should, be the aim of lawgivers. Thecy wrho attended to trisil .for ~oaehing ms know how often it happened 'that offendeta were nOt conVicte' and that appeals to the pas~sions of' jurors were stiecessfl, Beas of the extreme severity of the gme laws. Thseri'W"snoczlairi of El'nce inwllc~ the -number of bonvictions waisasnialk, ascort. paredwith the nunmberofindictmeneos, asoflencesurdertshastiela,Ws He-did not see upon what principle gentlemen should be4gevented from disposing of their surplus game5 as~ maAy of themi now did dli their sir-plus venison Or.fiAh. Air. LoCKHARAp dki.ed that the present #gasie laws -werege. rally unpo pular - -tney viere only ws, he believed, to poachers. Rni themneasure now piroposed wouzm, .he'woisld venture to say, be unpo- pular with every class of society. To some it wouldl be objection- able, because it took away existing righits.' Others woufld object to it because it did not confer rights; and almost all -would object to very rnnyof what he woitlel call its mnost trannical regulations. To tefrtduse respeting q"ualfcations, he'deCidedly objected. The seond was equalily, objiectonable : it wen't to makte game pro4 perty *but in whomb aid it invest the right? Not in the ouer. of the land as such, but in the pergon who had te fesimple.-o, or a life interest int, the property ; arnd even theSe were not to have the power of presering game, or 6fapoitis gamekeeper, unless thiey possessed a certaiia number ot . contiguous acres (the number to be determined ir. the! commirtte on the bill). Thus the only persons who could expect to have-this power were a few avrro Aritocrats in thze country; but the yeomasi, the rich farmer wh ht1oesee 1,0001. a year, were to be deprived of It. But to the veosaafi ifnd resident tenant were left theotlioog parts of the bill-that of apprehendiftgsan persctn who might comne on the ground to shoot, aiad whio was to be conisidered a trespasser, if he did not go off' at the first notice. Did the hots, membier whio introduced the bill imagine that such a regulation woald Ise po. pular ? Wotuld it be well received by the country, that a respectable citizeni, who might be iuaviteddowr. to tbe couintry, shiould be at the mRercy of any rufilusa to appTehend'him, and drag him before a ma- gistrate as a felon, for coming with his gun on the ver ground of thec man, perhaps, with whom he was. on a visit? He didrnot believe that the preservation of game wasi the only object intended by this bill, for, within his own recollection, game had Increased tenfold in the country. The real object, he believed, was to put down poach. ing, ut he thiostghrt thati the manner in-which it. waAsattempted would never. angwver its end: lr. PEEL saidl,that without going at'preAsnt into the other. ats oftebirll;, he wouild give it hisW support, because it hitudlid&llie clue o ialwing the sale of game, the prohibaition of which he conslidered a great evil in the present state of society. (Fleur, hear.) He wouild therefore give his siupport to the principle of the bill, re- serving to himself the power of objccting hereafter to such of its de- tails as he should not approve~ Ast to the law of quialificatian as it nowv stood, he imagined no itaan P.ould contend that it did notstand in need of revision and amendment. An hon. mnember bad talked of some of the learned professions being admitted td qualification. At present a doctor in divinity had not a qualificatoio to kill game: he had only a power of procreattag a quia.. lified person. He might beget a qualified man-his eldest son would have the qualification-but he himself did not. possess it. In the same manner, a man whbo had amassed 20,0001. a-year might be excluded but biii eldest fon possessed the power to 'exercise it, though, perhaps, without the ta.%te or talent, It was, however, ac- cordi-ng to the preisent laws denied to the second and aill the other youngersons ; but it wa-s'weli mown, that those sons didindulge in the spo*rt of killing game without any qualification. lHere, then, Wss's thlis unavoidable evil-that the father, as a magistrate, often had to condemi1pArties for violations of the game-laws, of whtich he must b~e conscious thia- his 6wn sons were tiaily gailty. (hlfear, hewr.) Ins Ireland, the law was difrercni from what it stood with us here,and he thuh ht in many respects it was hetter. There, any m an pos- sesd f1,001. propeity,might takeout a qualification to kill game; rand in Scotland any one miight da so, on the property the owner of which gave huiin leave. WVithi respect to the sale of game, he wvould dlefend it for the sake of the parties who had preserves; butt much more was it to be supported as it affected the interests of agreat portion of the community. Let the houise look back and examiine the question with reference to certain ehanges whichi haed taken place. in the country. A long timie hack Scotland was united to England, and at a later period Irelandi also became unitetd to it. One of the effects of those measure.* iar, that some of the greatest lanided proprietors,the repre-sentative peers and ecommon- ers of both countries, were obliged to reside in England for a certain portion of the year. But in England, their Irish or Scotch -qualifi- cations to kill game, were of no use to them. Now, could any thing be mnore absurd, than to preventsuch persons, not from killing alone, but even from purchasing game ? (Hlear, hear.) There were, besides, the foreign Ambassadors-.they were not exempted from the operation of the law ; and even Princes of the bloodi were tinot allow- ed to kill game, unlessi possessed of landed property in their own right. These were all prevented from procuring gaxe bypurchase, lttough it was well known that not one of themi observed the law in that respect, Was it, he would ask, wixe or politic, to allow laws to continue on the statute-book, whicih were notoriously violated eyery day, and that witlh impuinity ? WV'aa- it not a bad example, and tending directly to weaken the force of. all laws, that thiose whiose duty it was to administer theta, should t~teinselves be In the constant habit of violating some of them ? (Hear~j awlkontamn mnagistrates, who in tIle early part ofthe way weladow tohatminvse juis-tice and enforc-e obedience to thte laws, sat down at six ar seven in the evening to partake of that whiich was procured by their viola- tion! It might be asked what evidence was there thit game sold? He Might answer by sk'teiira notiiwiety of the Ifact. in the commlittee on thiS suibject, which sat last year, evidence was given whiceh clearlv showed thtat the sae of game in London wa'ks almnost as public as that of any other article. But as it might be said that the parties whio gave tliis evidence wer not on oatli, and might givea ditferentaccoutit ifexatuinedbeforeacourt of justice, andi that therefore considerable allowance miust be madle for exa gra- tion in tkeir statement, he did nst rest altogether upon the evience before tfie committee. He had directed inurs tobemade in four or fire of the principal towns in England, whih ere the resort of great nubers of strangers, and where it was well kmown that game was daily at the tables of the richi. He had asked for returnse of the nuniber of convictions which had taken place for- purchasing or selling gamie, within the last five years. lie would state the result to the house. If any, hon. memnber, for any of the plaues whiich lie should miention, should get up and dleny the truth of the returns, or the fact thlat game was sold there, his (Mr. Peel's) niouth wouxld be closed. The first return was fromn Bristol, and it was to this effiet :-.." I ant directed by the AMayor to state, in replyt your letter of the 7th, that no person has been con- victeyd tor puechasing or selling game in Bristol for the last five Years." (Hear, hlear.) Wiould any man assert that no game was to be had for sale in that city for that lengths of timne ? (Hear.) The tteXt plate from wvhich a return wast made, was Liverpool. It was- "In reply to Sir Benjamin Hobhouse's letter of the 7th inst., I have to acquaint you, that no person. has been convicted of the purchiase or sale of game withjin the last five years." (Hlear, hear.) The next return was froni AManchester : it said- "In reply to youir letter of the 7th, respecting the convictions in this town for tlte purchase or -ale of game, t have to state, thlat the number of convictions wietinm the last fiveyer was only four ; three of them in 1821, and one in 1822;s they were for the sale, not for the purchase of game." Thec next plaec was Glasgow it said, "1I beg to state in reply to your letter of ithe 7th, that the magistrates of this city have not had any prosecutions before thent for the purchase or sale of game within thte last five years. The mnagistrates of the county have the proseaution for poaching." (Hear, hear.) Wlhen the house saw that in those four lare and populous towns there took p lace only four convictions underg thelaw prohibit-ing the sale or purchase of game, within five years, was it not a decisive proot that such a law was useless ? He 'Preue no man would assert that game was nor sold in those Plcsi those years. Was It reasonable, then, to continue laws which were so constantly violated with impunity ? The per- minssion for the sale of 'game would, he contended, g great way. to abolish the traffic which was now carriedo "on by poachers. Thepoacher had generally two motives for his pursuit.. the diversion of ktiung the game, and the profit of disposing of' it. The first would not be altoget-her prevented, but the' second might, in a considerable degree. The greater number of poachers pursued their illegal sport for profit alone, and he beLtteed that a great many of the towtns in Englanld were supplied from that source. Now,if the legular sale of gamne were 'permitted it would establish that competition, which would, by greaty lessening the poacher's profits, considerably remove his temptation to the crime. That there was abundance of game in the country lost from want of such a means of disposing of it, he had no dou)4. Hie himself had ig~en in the house of one individuial 1,000 head of pheasants in one rgdm. There were no means of disposing of themt, for the friends of the jpaTty had been already satiated with game. It was, in his opinion, quite a soistake to imagine that allowing the sale of gamec would remove the protectioa which now existed to preserves. Suppose a, law "5to pamprohibiting the sale of rabbits or salmon, did hot. metnb.rs think that their warrens or rivers would be better pro. tected than they treat present? On the contrary, the only effect of such a measure would be to throw the sale into the hands of illegal yen. dars. He could by no means concar. in the force of the remarks mnade by the honoumable baronet (Sir J. Shelley), that no parties bad a right to enjoy gamne, but those who owned the estate. liet the parties who can pay for game, said the honourabile bare. net, and who are rich enough, purchase estates, and then enjoy the game. But suppose a man were to say to the honourable baronet Ii You have no right to en.ioy salmon; you are not the owner of' the river." or IC you I.ave no nght to partake of turtle, you have no West India island:" siuch an objection would be just asreason- able as that which the hon. hart., had made agaLinst the rigrht of any man enjoying what had been grown on the este *f another. It was well known that deer-stealing 50 years ago was cartied to a considerable extent. The sale of venison was at the time prevented by heavy punishments. The punishments were repealed ; the sale of venison allowed; and we nowv saw that the ofence was very much diminished. He would not say that other causes might not bave contributed to lessen the crime, but undoubtedly that-must be looked on as one. It was objected that a small farmner living in the vicinity of great preserves of game might, under the proposed biDl, by distributing corn on his grounds, se- duce away the game of his neighbour. 'T'hat he mirht do, as the law now stood; hut was there any injustice in his using that game which canme upon his property,and tended to destroy his crops ? in this, however, as in other cases the interest of each party would suggest a compromise. It was said, that alowing the sale of game would increase the difficulty of conviction for poaching; but this might be obviated by obliging the men to account for the possemsion of the game found upon them. He had called for returns from se. veral counties of the convictions for the possesioti of garme, and he found that in Sussex, Norfolk, and other counties, they were very few compared with those for being oat st night, and poaching. Taking the whole of the circumstances into econsi eration, and looking at the great number of commitments under the act, in various parts of the kingdom, he could not thimk of continulng that system which had been productive of so many evils. It was impot. sible to prevent the sale of game altogether. To prevent it, they must increase the penalties, or devise some other.plan. EHe tbougtt the plan contained in the bill was the best, and therefore he approved of the principle. He would, however, reserve hirnaef as to some particular p ts whieb would be better discussed when the bill was in committee. ire was, however sorry that his bon. friesid had not madc the alterations more gradua'l. The sudden chanpghe did not -altogether apprave. t lr, N, W. IV COLBBORN oppoed tbe meteuTe, and con. tende4 that it woulA have ihe tedect of inAucing the poacher to do -tha opnlywhih h di no clndetinely, and subject to all the bir,B*~ET- wa so isgste z-th the present,laws respecting game, that he ~~~~~was fr~ae ocnett n hne on ervn tha he was of cossntry tmusements, and ffxhnigi particular; ard if he thought that the bil wottIl aete feto abrokgating Abaepor,be ou d rnht sreuoulyoppose it. T -ha4owveyer~ nierely remedy the derects of a aystem of laws, which lhad becoipe the instrument of tyranny, and the cause of immo-rality. (Hear.) The laws relative to game lhad been passed in feudal times, when land-owners were tyrants, and when commerce was but little culti. Va9ted. They were not calculated for the present state of society. MAerchiants would- hare game on their tables, even if it -were t-oiled 'by the blood of the poacher who pmncured it for them. Since, thirtofot, there was such a determination on the part of mo- sited 'men to hate gasne, he thougln It was wise to allow them to procu-re it without destroy~ing the rmorals; of a large portion of the cordmwitcy. UJnder theprasent laws, no persons felt sas interest in the pr"etevstion of game, except the great land-owners -end their servants. The farmer, who had the best apportunity 4,o *prestiving if, ha ointerstindon so. The obty wa to 'StOPt) tpo2ching, wa otk wyte inducenfent to amnt.h offiincei by epIin th aeo ae, whichi woul h ede effcet of reducn tepi othtarticle so low as to' render poaehing no lneapetbeeeplyit.It appeared to him, that the presen blcolInr'waafetoxhtig Every fox-hunter 'was a trsasrudr th a a ito sto; and personi would hav amchrht to draw for o fe the Paasing ofthe bill h eyhdnw For the reasons which he hud stated, he woA]d vt o h il L4rd MILTVON said, that the circumistance which careated so strong ai disgust as -had been expressed agaiast the system of game laws, was the enormous quanitity, of crimne 'which it engendered. It ought to' be~ the object of the legisla'Wts-e to diminish tliat crime, and every other considetation should gite waLy to the effcting of that ohje (Hear.) Thehonourablemem. ber for 'Lewes (Sir J. Shelleyl attached too much- importance toI other con.Miderations. Hle(Lord Miltolfldoubted very much whether tlecountr derived much adlvantage frbns the residen-ce of thoie gen- *mfltin lwho were particularly anxious for the p re&ervation of game. (Hear.) le agreed in all thatt the ri~ght lioinourable gentlemsn oPpoAite (Mfr, Peel) had said in commendation of -ie clause hin thie bill before the houise, which enacted that the sale of game should be legal. Public opinion had already legalized the iale of gamne, and if Parliament sbould refuse to confirm the judgment of the public, their decision wouild remain a monument of legislative folly. Althdbegh he highly, approved of the principle of the bill, yet he ob.jectedto some of ~the provisions as tending to de- feat that principle. HEe wished that the bill shLould merely legalize the sale of gamne, and not lay (Town aniy plan. The bll, however, proposed to alter the nght of property in game, of wlsiih-elha-disspproved. He saw no reason for transferring the right in, game from the lordi of the manor to freehdlderg of IV acroi ; buit he saw many reasons wyhy it shoul2I not be done. It was sufHicient to state one-such a Darceeding would create 30 tyrants, for everg one whio now existed:( Hear.) He thiuuFht that suich a sttate ot things would be ten times more oppressive to the lowver: cla&sss, thab that which now existed. For thut rreason he would op.1 pose thebil Sir Al. W. RI DL'EY approved of' the bill. Gamie was a luxury the sale of which it was imipossible to prohiibit. The hon. member for Oxford (Mlr. Lockhart) wished thie qualifiation to kill game to be givent to doctors of divinity and certain niembers of cor-1 porate bodies. The lhun. member ought, inhig opTnion, to ba content wiih ftie uresent bill, which gave the learned doctoe saud the mem-. bers- of 'cor&fogtlons the liberty of eating. game. (A laugh.) Bating was muchi orae congenial to' their habits tannI shooting. (LIjuglhter.) . It had beenr askeid, by whom. the pre. I menit game laws were stvled unpopufar. He would ask by wvhom they were styled poular? Thley were unpopular to the pt chasers, of game ; thery were unpopular to the sellersi owraec.iu'e of the risk they ran;, and, aLbove alL they were unpopular to eeymt of sound moral feelingsi in the couintry. (fHear.) MNr. S. WORTLJEY shortly, re 'led to some of the objections which h*d been made agzinst the ill, It hiad beeni saitl, amon -t othier things, that he would render himself un~poplar amnongsis cosiunsby the introduction of the bill before the house Suc a consideration would tiever prevent him from performing what lie conceived to be hisi duty, either in that house or elsewhiere. He had, however, too good an opinion of the understandings of hism constituenits to imagine that he shouild render himi- sefunlsojiuar to themi by advocating the cause of morality and huanity. (Hear, hear.) Headmittued that there was a greater quantity ofgairie in) the country now, thian att any former pe- riod; but under the present system that abundance of game becaime acurse to the country. Hewsno wdiedded to the bill as it now stood, as to suppose it was perfect. No doubt a~ bill framed under sutchecircunistances iust oontain many objectionable parts. ie only~ desireti that the measure might be allowed to proceed to fa coimlittee, whereits defects.might beremedied. (Hear.) The Houtse dividled-. For the second.reading, 105 i For the Amend ment, 37 j Mlajority, 6l8. WELgH JUDICATURE BILL. Mr. JONES moved the order of the day for thie second rending- of the W11elsh judcicatuire bill. Mkr. ALLEN opposed it, aned said, that, a great evil aroie frmm tile nuimber of WVelsh Judges, some of whomn never clianzed their circuit, and the want of employmient for so many. Ile had a strong objection to the intermedliate employmient of the Wlcshi Judges as counsel, and to their liability to forn npeRsonal coinnexionis, as agetits to noblemen and others, which musgt derogate tromn thie dignity of theJludicial situation. He also thought, thiat so far as property was concerned, one great evil was the diffculty of procuring special jtx#es-K privilege only to be obtained by motion in open c-ourt, and then, when the assizes in sonie places lasted only two days, it was imosibIe to summon the special jurors within the time required by thelatw, Ilie would propose that the courts of Westminster Hiall shoulA be thrown open to the principality ia the same manner as to thp other subjects.of the-empire ;.and thus to get rid of those vagrant Courts of Chancery, which were only useful in injtinctions and dis- coverie.s. He was anxious that there shiould be onily two circuits, one for North, and the other for South WValL8. He coucluded by moving as ali amendment that the bill be read a seconid timie this dav' six mnonths. MNr. JONES defended the bill, and contenided thiat it would be most salutary in its operation. He defenidedi the Welsh C~ourts of Chancery, and saidl that they were the best part of the local jurie- diction). There was nutsa single county in WVales that had petitioned fbr their abolition. Sir C. CO [LE approved htighily of part of the bill, but thiouglht that the principle of it was not carried far enough. The reasons which were deemed sufficient to disqlualify thie judges of Enigland froni sit.. ting anid voting in thathouse, ouight to be sufficient to disqualify the judges of` WaNesalso. If any member wouldnmove aclause disqua- lifyin the Wlelsh judge fromi sittiiig as memibers in that house, he would willingly give it hissupport. (Hear.) Mfr. C. NfV. WYNN thought that the best thiing whiich could happen to the people of Wiales, would be time abolition of theirlaju- rsiction, and the assimilating it to thie practice of England. Such a plan, however, couild not be carried into effect without many con- current measures. The English judges were already too mitch oc- cupied with the busivess of their own courts, to take any adilition to it upon their shoulders:, and he thioughit that it would be bad eco- nomy tousppoint two additional judges, who were only tu be judges for six weeks in the year, and that, too, in a particular district of the kingdom nly. He as anxio s,totsveral reason-s, thiat this bill Thegaler wa thn leaed ora dvisonwhen there appeared- For he ecod redin, 41 Aains it 19I lIajcrity for the bill, 23. The ill as hen eadasecnd ime,andordered to be coniniitted in a committee of the whole house on Alonday next. MUTINY BILL. On the qiuestion that the report upon this bill be brought up, Mlr. SYKES ruse to expres his strong abhorrenCe of the practice of military flogging, which he considered as nothing else than an anatomical eprmnt upon a living subject. The principal de- fence which ha=enoffered in favour of it restedI upon the assertion that as a punishmenit it had been long in use in the British airmy. In pint of fact that was no defence at all; for instead of being one ofshee ractice;s whjich were sanctified by time, it was onlv one 0f thosebarbaou relis of a barbarous age which ought to be abolished immnediately. It was excruciating in. point, of suffering, degrading in point of feeling, asid unnecessary in point of discipline ; and as the chief effect of it wvas to deter those persona fromn enterin6 into the am whom it would be must desirable to allure inito it, he truste tat the noble lord would consent to abolish it, and would turn his humane mind to devising some other effectual punishment to be substituted in its stead. It was said, that without the lash it would be imipossible to prevent drunkenness amiong the soldiery. If' hon-gent.'s wouldcons'ider themannerinwhichthearmy wasrecruited', .they would seethe very curiouisnaturecof this argument. Firs tthnemen weretermptedinto thesrmny by har lquor given them to xes and then were soundlfloggedtif they cwared to take it in a simlrmn ner afterwards. (Hear.) Itwas'likewise said, that at peetti puniahment was very seldom inflicted ; if that were the case, whiatI objectiia could therm be to abolishing it altogether? (Hear.) He must confess that he felt strongly upon this subject, in consequence of a circumstance that had happene three or four years ago in the immediate neighbourhood in which he lived. A soldier, who wait- ed on the mess of hiq regiment, stole or was said to kave Kolen cer- tai spoons belonging to it, A court-martial-was summoned to de- cide upon his offence, a circumstance on which he should only re- mark thaLt it placed the man's prosecutors in the singular situation of lhisjiidgeg. The court-martial was heleL, and the soldlier was conviote,-justly, he had no doubt,--of the robbery laid to his charge. He was sentenced to receive four hundred lashes. The punishment, or he shouldl rather say a pare of the punislsmenr, was iniflicted; for the man's body, was LA.h edtll he urgon eclredtha itwasnot safe to lash it any longr. n adayor to aterard anorder came for the regiment to mve ts qartrs. he eathr hppeed to be very sultry, and ewig t th mach,irrtatd te wund onthe man's back to such a dereethatthe beame nflmedand subsequently mnortified. The an ied.A cronr's nqust ws hld pon his body; and the verdict returned by the juTy,after a considerable examination into the subject, was," Wilful murder, committed by some man or men un- known." (Hear, hear.) Though it was now three or four yars since that verdict had been given. no proceedings bad been taken upon it from that time down to the present. (Hear, hear.) He should like to hear from the noble lord opposite whether there was any truth in the statement which had been made by an hon. member on a for- mer evening,-namely, that when a soldier was punished in the Guards, part of his pay went to the bospital, and part to the fund set aside fbr the officers' dinners ? (Cries of No, no.) He should be glad to bear that such a practice did not exist; but he must again ask, was it the practice, or was it not? Colonel DAWKINS said,that he was not in the house at the time when the honourablemember for Aberdeen had brought forward his charges against the reginent to which he had the honour to belong; but as they had been againl rebrred to, and as they had already ap- reared in print, he was anxious to say a word or two regarding them on the present occasion. In the first place, he must inform tbe bouse that in the seven battalions Of Foot Guards, corporal punishment was carcely ever inflicted (hear) : and in the next place, that the regi- nnental returns proved beyond all controversy, that in the last 12 months oiily one in ha) been floggted in the King's Mews. WVhat, then, becamne of the stories which had been industriously circulated regarding the frequent punishments which took place in those bar- racks, and which wvere described ssodhmtressiagto the ears and minds oftlteneighbouring inbabitants? InthebttalionofdrenadierGuawds whih had been stationed there for thc last six months, there kad been ohly one insance of corporal punishment; aod in the batta- lion of Coldstresns Guards to wlhich he had the honour to belong, andwbch had been there for the six monthbprevious,therehadbeen. |noinanee of corporal punishtment whatever. Hear, hear.) Witl regard to the ata tegn ent, that wthen a sodier was unler purushment, his py wrent to formsn afund far the officers' dinners lee would efls- tent httmself wvith giving it a positive contradiction. ife wvoul4;how- evet, tell the bouse what becatne of a man's gay whilst he wrasaun-. Nw of this su,d. a day went to his gaoler, anid the other 7d. waff not drawn from 'the Secretary at War. The gallant officer, after congratulating the couintry on the diminution of corporal punish- radrit in the. armiy, and aleterattrlbbtlititi it t0 the liberal reguilationi of the Duke of York, -concluded by statlng.bis opiniorir that c-orporal puniShmient, irs its present state, was essential to the! dlscipliae of tbc Britislh army. Mfr. HUAI E conitended, tk.1t thec diminution in the numiber of military ifoggings was rioKst -,wuch owing to the regulations of the Duke of Ylork, as to -AC exertions of his bonourable friend the member for, Wes4Oiger (Sir F. Burdett). it appeared to himn to be a contradiction kgO 'Yrms, to congratulate the country on the diminution of werpor I unishmeunts in tke arrpy, and y4tto' sog, that the aLrmy, could riot 21ir in a state of discipline without it. (ear, hear.) rihrg o the pay of the soldiers under pu- nishent hewoud mi'ey.ya one question-was it, or wait it not paid into the stock.puirseei the regimnent ? The noble lord oppo- site brad told hi hti 'i so paid ;if it was niot, he (Mr. Hume) -wss not to blam-e for tholViistake which he had committed. "Sir H. HARDINOZ corroboratedI the statement miade by thw gallant officer who b i~fecded him, respecting the numuber of' e6r- ~poral punishments -willh had recently taken place in the several battaltons of Foot Oyds, With regard to the contemptible charge which had been x4sd upon the offiers of the GJuards, andl that too in. no very deliczi~ fernma, (hear, hear) for the pay of the men was saidl to have gone -into "s he pockets ot' the offiers," (hear, bear,)- with regard to that -ontemptible charge, he, too, must be pemnitted to~say # few words. He did not suppose that it bad originated widtW-41he boourable mdember for Aberdeen ; he had received itfrom some 'tDilitinry inforrser, who to the baseness of being an inibesirm anse1riDWn Comrades, adrded cthe st ill greater baseness of having~ r,iten'thelsrnourable ineni~er for Aberdeen false Information. At tbht thAethi-vbarge was first broached in the hostse he was notable to I;We it that dliret a-nd positive eontradietions whicto even thien he knetw it todveWe. Hle was now bettrerinlbrsie-d upon the subjet-4, alid he coulrFhtifornuthe hou%e thlttthe moiey-in- qiteston went nei- ther into' the Pockets of the oiilcers, nor into themioqck-Liurse of the .regiment. It by any fault of the quitrter.rnaster, it had been acci- dlentally thrown i-nto the stock-purs of the tegimnent, surely that would not justify any man in saying, -that amnongthe offiers of the tiuards there was a traffic-king in mnilitary juitice. The average quantity of stoppages in a yea,, in each battalion of the Guards, amounted to about l151., which, dividedamsoorg the officers, wouM only give a smnall pittance to each. Was it likely, that a captain In the Guardsi rould be guilty of "1tr flicikin in militdmy justice," to ob- tain 25,., or any subatern to obtain about 95. i year ? T~he fdea Was too ridiculouis to be entertained for a moments The gallant officer then proceeded to observe, that it wan most un- ple=at,to tthe officers, ot(rbe army to be obliged to wftiics~ the in- flcino hs punishment, b%st, urnless the gentlemen as pi would state some effectual lubasitute--something that would pre- serve order amongst the soldiers..-he, as an officer., mnust conscen-. tiouslJy declare that he couldl not, consistently with his duts', con- qetthnt the disipline of' the army should- be risked by'giiin"g tip the present system. At the same tim'e that he made thisdeclartion, hec felt kimvelf bound to say, that he was a-, sincese a friend to hit- =iant paany of thie gentlemen who took the Wther side of the MVr. J. SMIf 'lil deprecated the attachmuent to cruel punishments wbich prevailed hit this country. If they named their eyes towards France, the), wvould find 30,000,000 of people governed by law, with the infliction of scurcely;;ny punishment except tbe brafid oil the shoulder. As they went throtugh the streets of Paris, they might see persons undergoing the operation of being branded without any- manifiestation of pain, the mark being made, he believed, with some sort of liquid. It was certainly ins their power to imnprove their own system, by, adoptinig the practice of those whom they too often affect- ed to despise. Our armny was taken, as the noble lordl had observed, froin the great mass of the people : but within the last sitx or seven years, they had made a progress in intellectual inmprovement which eta one could conceive who had Dot amaully witnessed it. This was more especially the case wvith reference to the ma- nmtfactur distZicts. In those districts, scarc~tly a maLn could be mtie, who7id net knoew how to read. They did not confine their reading to religious books, but perused philosophica.~ abd scientific works. He would oask-whethier suchi men as thes, %,beni they en- tered the army, were fit objects for corporal punishment ? (Ii car.) Wihen gentlemen contended for the system of flogginig, he lemandedt whethier they had tried any other. mode for the preservation Of( disci- pline ? The answer was, that they had not. Now ht wou,Mi tell thiem that until thecy had tried the experiment, they were notcor.5Pe- tent to judge of the effeect whichi a miilder spemeseof p-unishme.it wvould pToducee. He stated this from a sense of luty; and so long' as hie had a seat in that kouse, he would endeavour to piat; an end to the inflictior. of tortnre enr any man for any speerca of eiinie. (Hear.) NVith re-spect to an observation of his hon.1friend (MIr. Hoblihouse), it apert ohim that it had been very much mistakcn. Hlis hon. frindhado said, that the beating of the drums in the nmorning was associated in the mninds of the inhabitants with the ideza of' erporal punishment (hear); but he diid not assrt th&t corporal punishment was constantly taking plawe in the barrar,ks. (Hear.) Sir II. HARDINGE said, it was rather unifortanate for the posi- tion of the hion. gentleman, that for a long timie the drums were not heat at alL. The reveille had not been beaten in thev morning for a considerable period. Mlr. J. SMITH krnew nothing of the facts. He orlw stated whiat hie believed his hon. friend had said. Mr. H. G. R3ENNET said, that a representation similar to that of~ his lion, friend (Mr. Hohhouse) had been made to him last year. Colonel TOWNSHEND sad, it had been customary, formerly,, to beat the drum in thie morning. But, without any application frourr the inhabitants, andI merely from a spontaneous anxiety fer their comfort, for the last six monthis the revcilke had not beez~ beaten. Wihen rtle lion. gentlenian said, tbat whenever the drum wag beaten it was associated with the idea of flogging, in the mainds of the inhabitants, he was entirely at a loss to understand the meaninig of so extraordinary an assertion. M1r. It. MIARTIN defended the vote he had given on a former night, in favour ofth,e bil,l, asit stood. It was admitted on allsidee. that thec practice ofogigwas very much diminisied. This was owing to thle exertlons of Ithe Commander-ln-.Chief, who had alwgpt expressed it as his opinion, that when the custom Of inflicting cerporal puimishnment prevailed to any great exteer in a regiment, the discipline of that regiment must he bad. He would not vote for taking away the power of inflicting that spe. cdes of punishiient where itzappeared to be necessary. He thought it was much better to leave the business in the hands of the Coin- tmander-iin-Chief, who would deal with it as his kindness and linin. nit dictated. Lor'd PAL,MERSTON said, his sentiments had been mistakeir on one or two points, lie was supposed to have said that this privi- lege of flogging was a necessary prerogative of the Crown. He had not made any such observationi. His positioni was, that the le- gislatuore had recognized the King as the head of the army and navy-to him was intrusted the sole coipmand and government of' tihe forces by sea and Iand ; and therefore it rested with the Crown to detcrivilue by what code of laws those bodies could be best governed. The lionourable member (Mr. J. Smith) had argued that corporal punishment was peculiarly unfit for per- sons reared in the manufacturing districts, because in general they Ihad received some degree of education : but it should be obsterved that where large masses of people were collected together in rite manufacturing districts they had not the same sim- plicity and innocence of manners whicht distinguisbed the agrieultu.. ,al part=f h population; and therefore punishment was more likely, tobe deeredb%te tornert han by the latter class. He knew that the best proof ow the goodI order and descipline of a regiment was tos be found in the infrequency of corporail purnishmpent. Let it, hiow- ever. be recollected, that hie never contended for frequency of' punishment, he hiad merely arguedfor the prpriety of asserting the powver; (ear.) Mu tch praise had been bestowerd onte rnh XY which.ft was said,was governed without punishtnent,whilst ours wa-s subjected to corporal correction. The conduct of the- French army hlowever, when it retreated from the Peninsula into the soitth o~ Fmance, proved the necessit'r of' having recouwst to that spedtes of pu- nishment. Their condnct,'when they arrived in France, was of the very worst description. They plundered their fellow-countrymer, without mercy; they burnied villages, and carried devastation withz them wherever they went. Such of the inhabiftants as had it its thbeir power fled with their property to places of safety. Such was the-de- scription of tifeir conduct given by a Frenchi officer, who also stated, that the British army exhibited a perfect miodel of good order and discipline. (Hear.) Alr. J. C. HOBHOUSE observed, what he raidl on a former nigh!t was, that. it was represented to hiim that when corporal punisment was inflicted at the barracks, the drums were beaten to prevent the cries of the sufferer from being heard. On that occasion, a gallant officer expresse his surprise by gesture, and lie (AMr. Hobblouse) sail, across, the table, " not lately." He hiad heen told, that the noise of dlrums in the morning alarmed the- inhabitants, whio thought the drams were beaten cluring the i-nflic- tion of corporal piunishmen t; but rnow he understood they were en- tirely mistaken. The alarm, however. which had been excited int theneihborhod,proved that the plsaeOeloc5ed for barracks-was a veryunft oe. n oe ocasoa,in*st certainfly, corpora! punihmet dd tke pace Itwass~et.i from the tops ot" thehoues,andthestoy, realy e%igested he supposed. immeiatly ot brod. Te cnseuene.-)W'55 that when- everthe rumswerebeatn aferwads,it-' wags uppose'd that there was an infliction of corporal punshenf-,~5id that the sound of the drumrs was introduced to prevent the cri6,a1of t1to sol- diery from being distinguished. With respect to the o\servsllons which ha Ihilen ro tenl ord on the subject of the rtet of the French army, he thQoagbt the circumuseances sc-re y jV-ified' them. It was, theought to remember, abeaten army, wrtebotot sees or provisions, and was obligea to sapply its wants by any nsWa~ that. chanced to present themaselves. But what was the ease with thw Bgritigh army in the retreat under Sir John Mtoore ? He had heem, told by-British officers thattedsiln rdodoadc of the;- Frenchi were adlmirably Prese-rved,, whie 'the Englis a"rrn sin.- donaed itself to every species of disorder. The manner ini whtich the British armiy was governed, reiminded bim very strotrly if a story of the Dey of Algiers Certain individuazls wishet(himw to abolish. the custom of impaling andl roating - but he re.-, fused, observing, that hangtog andt dtecapttttng wQukr sRtoauce no efFect at all, and therefore he was obliged to terrify his tub- jects by the occasional aplication of impaling androuting. In the satC w a:ppeared, the lah was kept - rrorem over, the Bri- Tighe noble lord seemed to think that British soldi:rs wotld be good for nothing if that remedy for insuboedination were n* monetimes appliedl. For his OwnD part, he did not thitnk the lah Fisi calculated to irprove either their inartial spirit or their iaoral conduct. Sir H. ILARDINGE explaired. Sir A. IliOPf dia not understand his noblc friend to sy that the use of the lass wazs necessary. He merely argued, that it waseper for tbe disedplne of the army, that the power of indicting pus&h- ment shoulid exist. After a fKew words from Colonel DA.#xWSs. tbe rcport was agree to, and the bill orelered to he reatda third time on Mlonday. The insolvient debtors' amtasdmeue bill was ead aaod time- To be comnitted on Tuesday next. 'he repor; of thecommittee on the silk bounties set# was aWe to, an billis rdered to be brought iu conforpably teruwith. Mr. G OULBURN obtained lease to bring ing l to stnead the rsishetmnstab le act. Tlhe hon. gentlenan also obtained leae to bting in i -)ll to pr ovide for the apulication of mofni Ye" in Irsh sct- riti& under 1'16 of Geo. IIL, Cdp. 122. - g1r. HUIS!IE gave notice of a motion relativc togbLsitable tmrst. fo tbe 8thXoAplL Adjornesd at HALF PAST TVWELVE O CLOCL. LIST OF THE MINORITY ,Of 19, who voted against the second readin of the BUL- ot arntinue the system of Welsh Judesture; Illtborp, Via. Evanv, W. Lenard T. IL Sykes D. euhst, Hog. H. Gratus, J. Lamb, iot. G. Switt. J. G. tiobbouse, J. C. tone J. . U. sstt, R. Buxeton. T. F. Jmegs. W. Ruuel, Lord J. W*bb, Col' Crompton, S. Kennedy, T. F. Rice, T. L wh V$tg Y Tsl.r-.3 ~. ienan ~.ItWe HOUSE OF COMMONS. TiURSDAY. AIARru 11.