House Of Commons, Thursda...
The Times, 1824-06-18T00:00:00

A - .-raA&EIt PrOceenea to Mc uoiuse Ot IJordi tobeuartheRoyal sssens given bv comziission to several biiis (see Lards' report.) He returned, aawrook the Chair at a few minutes after four o'cleck.] DISSENTERS. 3tC W.SMiTlTose topresent a pe itioa from certain Protestant V41i6ters, in rnmber about 10,0, residing in and near themietrc. eoiis. Tnh* p-tition spoke, ho-.vever.on the part of all the Dissenters nf Eng!and with the exception of iaethodists and Catholics. They cniip'aineiJ. that in consequence of differing from the Church of Eazland, they were subjected to many civi} disabilities. They main. ralned, t hat the2- ouRht not to be placed on the same footing as the nnan Cat!holics, because thc latter acknowledged a foreign poten- tate, whilst they ac"'nowledged nO power superior to that which ex. _ tcl ia thiscoumtrr. It was nothis intention, thehonourable mem- xer said, at the present moment, to ground any motion on the pe_ tidoan; bet he hoped that, the czse of the Dissenters having been brought before Parlia2ment, some measures for their relief might, at no distant pcrod be c lon:ed Mr. RO BERkYSON wished no concessions to be made to secta- ians: he thbsught it was necessary, tor the sate.y of the Established .-nch, to withstand their growing influence. Sir G. HILL presenteda petition from the Dean and Chapter of Dervy, and from the Protestant congregation of the same place,prasy- in- fso ivesrization into the funds applicable to the repair of Derry clh-adral. Thelhon.baronetmade several renmarks in presenting this ptition, but thiev were ina"dible in the gaiUery. ?r. Al Werma WOODl) was surprised to hear any thing more of Derry cathedralI fr-orn the hon. baronet, afterthe rebuff whichhe had realired on a fortner evenina. He was inobrined that the hon. ba- rone: had received two pefitions upon this subiect froat Ireland. Hl- be.d came, howevevr, to the conclusion of presenting one of them, and of pocketing the other, antd in so doing the hon. baronet appear. ed to him ta hsve acted with excellent discretion. WVith regard to :Fe Iri's14 Society, which the petitioners had attacksed, he would rn=ely observe, that considering the benefits wbicli it bad already restowae upon them, the petitioners had acted most ungratefully. in eancinsion, h3 obwserved5 that there was at sum of 6,OOOL a year ar;i-sg cut of tle fisheries of Lontlonderry, which was- strictly ap. plirable to the repairs of Derry cathedral A^fter a few vwords from 3Ir. WF. SS{ITrI, the petition was laid OR the table, and ordered to he printed. 3lr. DA.WSON brouiht up the report of the commissioners on puolic charities. IThe report consisted of a square mass of papers about a yard thick, and attracted considerable attention fromt its im. snensz ta. Sir JAMEIS MrAf,sTOSE? said, that before he preseated, the petriion which he held in his hand, fie would Lake the 9noortunity of saying, that in the next session of Parliamnent he woulti call its at- rentlon to two subjects which hcshouldhavebroughtbe.'breit during the p-esent Session, had he not been prevented by severe indisposi. oni. The first7of them would be a bill to amend the existing law ef copyright; and thecsecond to repeal the restrictions placed onithe tanot'genius by the act of George II., giving to the Lord Cbamber. lain or sis deputy thc right of licensing plays. The petition whiclh he ha4 to ptteent was froml the inhabitants of Perth and Borrow. -stoness praving fbr-the gradual abolition of negro slavery._The peduan was ordered to be printed. R.ELIGIOUS PROCESSIONS IN IRELAN1D. ?irJAMES .IACINTOSa said that lie had a petition to pre. serrt fiom an individual of the nane of John Lawvless residing at Ilel-asr.as individual who, thoug't he only spoke hasown senti. enats in it, yet ought, as be was the conductorofa public journal, to 'Ye considereti as mare than a single item in casting up the account >o public epinion, f:om the means which hie had of knowing and con. daming it. TIhepraycrof the petiui6n was that the house would put a etop to all religious processions in Ireland. That such a mea. sare wras desirable, hbcbelieved every men ber or that house wrould -wliUigly agree though there would undoubtedly be difterences of o4 rnion as to tae rmode of carrying it into execution. That these prosons widened the bceaeh between the members of different gbn-no nanin his senses wouid now dispute-The petitionerstat. elthatalattemptstoputan endto them, exceptbylaw, wouldbe ut. trlyuseless; and he (SirJ3.Macintosh) begge(1 leave te add, tbat iF it er thtought of consequence to the country that Parliament should 7auw its disapprobation ofthem, asit recently had done,there could be no harm. done in promulgating that disanprobation in the shape of a hLw prohibiting their future celebratiin. lie had, observed in a ncxsaper, that the Orange Society of Dublin had recently publish- an notice tO the diffrent provincial societics, recommending them to disontinue the procession ot the 12th of July next-aproc6sien - nis! asit was nothing more than the-triumphant comnmemoration of -. nctory gained over the Irish n'ation, was a peculiarly Irish pro. eadirn. anli totally unheard of inevery-other country. Heappilaud. ed the Orange Society of Dublin for what they had done upon this eaneaon, thnough, if -hesasile dlegree of justice were meted joucteo them - w-.ich they terein the habitof .neti2ig out to the Catholics; it might be asid that th- nrotie which theyjbad given wlas very much in thc sha-.aeof atn order, and t rpir r6comitendatiorr icry like the exercite of en sct of overeignty. (t ears heir.) 1He coatld have wishedthaf theyhad gone s.ill further thaF Vihebhad do2ie; be could have wih. -c that they had recommended those with whorm their recomnmenda. si,un had weirht never apuin to ermnaemorate the victories of civil wir-th se victories which, though tbey conferred. laurelsstained wetL kindred blood.prod}ceci little eutulatibn-ind no edumpli... '8 r.!aa Aii:ura rtarnap4o." (kIebear.hir) He then moyed that ?be rietitziobbtcEiht up. -. -,-.- Tacu petitie. wise acettrding1y broughftup, resd, and ordered f49 be ALLEGED- CRUh;LTY IN -IBRELANsD. 'tir 3. 3IA:INTOSEI saidTthit he h-id now td present a petition i jrdi dual Who compaiaed ofan uauitetrrpted srens of wrongs for makny years *lst, ani wiho was so c6oic~ted wih YtI ncene of the tragic drama whichl had beer, so long enCted in1 Ireland.1 'The name Of. the petitioner was Bernard Coile. If there were any truith in his statemenrf the wroxgs whiclh he' had. endutred were un- Paralleletd in the history of any civilized countryt. - Of couirse he cosild not be expected to pled e himself to the accuracy of -the petitioner's com-plaints but t iis he *ould say-that if they were -false,thiey ought tobezrefuted; and that if they were true.they ought to be retdressed. - At any rate, the petition ought not to be evadled, but shouldl meet as it deservedl either with refutation or redr'ess To which of the: two it was entitled, he was not inefficiently acquainted with the facts to deelare ; but by one or ether of thema he.thought it- ought to be attended. The petitioner stated, that about 30 years ago heintroducedinto thenorthiofIreland a branch of muslin manu- facture from Scotlaid, in which country hehad been educated. The :examplewbich he thiensetto thiecapitalistsoflreland was ofsuchim- ~ portarice as to entitle him to rank amonig her public benefactois. fobr, considering the state of society in tthat couantry, and the. went of empiloyment felt by the lower orders of it, no- thing could be'more beneficial to her interests than the introdue- tion of a' new manufacture. This manufactu-re iXe established at IArmagh, atnd carried on with success; adld profit till the year 1795 or 1798y. In the commencement of the disturbances in 'the county of -Arniagh, out of' whiceh the Orange AssOeiationi were said to have arisen, and at the period.when liord Glosport miade his celebratedl de- claration regardingz them in Parliakment, the petitioner stated that he 'was apprehiendid and sent to prison unider aL warrant, which, if it were correctly stated to him (Sir J. Macintosh), was without a Pa. rallel in the history of aniy country witht which he was acquainted. IHe was described in the warrant as a reputed Papist (hear, hear), Iand was sent to prison on two charges-the firnst charge of distribut. Iing ball-cartridges. among his brothier Papists 'for the purpose of tiestroyluig the Protestant establishment; and the secondi, a charge of having -worn in a soldier for the overthrow of the Protestant as- cendancy. (I-lear, liear.) As to the nature of this warrant he would not say a word mrre, but would leave the house to form its own judgmc,nt Thepetitiener 'hen proceeclod to %tate, that after some time he was dischiarged fromn prison, fromn which he (Sir J. Mlackin- toshi) inferred that the petitioner wafs snnocent of the charges mRade against hiimn; and that hie was never subsequently broughit to trial uponi'them, from which he thioughit. that there was miore than a Ilegal presumption that he had not committed any guilt. He was adfter- Iwards subjected by the local authorities to a series of petty griev. isances, whichi thougth they- were scarcely worth noticingz individu- :ally,. formed collictiveli' an accumulation of suffering suffi- cient to destroy the conifortz of any individuals. In conse- quence of the system of persecuition put in force against hlim,. he removed from Armagh, and settled in Dublin. Then shortlv afterwards those disturbances occurred, so dreadfiul in their commencement, so dreadf'ul in their progress, and be would iadd, so direadfuil in their suppression, that neither of the parties- can- ;cerned in them could look back upon them withohit sorrow and re- Imorse. The petitioner statted that hew,as never disturbed duringall the melanicholy procee0ings of the year 1798; and that he was never deprived'of his liberty at j.eiod when every body knew that there iwas not much b iaim- dpiigay person of liberty who was suspected ofofnewemetnd ttiis fact, to show that during a time of general disaif'ection there was not even a suspicion otf thei petitioner's loyalty. The petitioner then proceeded to state, that in tie year 1803 he was arreted, and subsequently thrown into prison at Kilrmainham; and lkerebegan the subject matter of thecom- plaints made,- by the petitioner. The petition stated a series of cruelties inflicted on the petitioner by Dr. Trevor, an officer of Ithe gaol, whiich, if there,'were the slightest approximation to truth in them, were not.to be exceeded by any recorded in modern his- tor. he wee ribarbarous in themselves, so mean and yet so irrtaing s cacuatd to embitter and at the same time to ynre lif, hathesholdnot describe them, unless he were compeUed to do o b thse hodefended the state of the prison. indeed, he woul say tha th rsn fFrance in tise worst days of Robe- spierre did no wins'rae orrors than were inflicted on ,the pe. titioner whils hreandwthin the walls of Kilmnainbam gaol.. If any gentleman wished to have a sample of them, he might move for th~e reading of the petition at length; but for his own p art, he was so dlisgusted by them that be hoped he should never be caUled upon to describe themn. At last, throughi the intervention of an in- dlividual, who wits always ready to interfere where he saw liberty, in- vaded, or innotcen~c oppressed..b.e meant Ljord Hastinjmthe peti- tioner was enlarged from-atliedungeon, in which, thoug~ hi3life had not been t4irectly aimed at, it hadl been endangered, and in which he hadl sufF~red nearlv all the torture whiceh human ingenuitiy, could devise. In the year 180, the state of Kilmainhama gaol was birought before Parliamenit by a man whose eloquence was sure to command attention to aniy sublject 'which he undertook. In consequence of the exertions of 11r. Sheridani, for that was the eloquent pernonage to whsom he alluded, an humble addlress was carried by tbat house to his rilujesty, praying hiim to appoint commissioners to examine into the state of the gaol at Kilnminham. Comnmissioners were ac- cordlingly anpointed. On their going to KilainahRam, the gaoler, Dr. Trevor; and the other offi-ers of the gaol, requested that the.in quiiry sliould be ini private. The petitioner anid the other Prisoners thiouhbt, andI in that respect he thoughit with them, that the inquiry wouldI be carried on with greater tftec!t, if carried on in public. The commissioners, however, were of adifferent opinion, and refused to open thie doors of their commissieii-room. In coDnsequence, -only osie of the state prioners was examined-and he was suspected_ to bean iniformer; Pthe- other wimesse brought before the commission were either the sErvants or turakeys of the gaol-that is, the accm- plices in the very crimes into which the commnissioners were up. pointed to examine. HeneednottAtneetheresult of that commaission. The absence ofLord Hastin3gs from England, and thie subsequent death of Alr. Shieridan21 dIshleartened the vrtitioner fromn proceeding I i hs ttmpt t otan redress. HIe hid, however, been encou- raged to rnew them by the liberal fee-ling which the House of Com- Tnons e hibited towards Ireland in th lastsession ofParliament. H'e therefore wrote to hini (Sir J. Mfacintosh) at the close of it, requesting him to undertake thepresentation of it. le wrote back to the petitioner that he considered the period of the session to be too far advanced for any proceedfings to be instituted on his petition, and advisedlhIim to defer the presentation of it till thepres*ntsesien. The petitioner concurred in the propriety of the advice which Ile gave, and had, in consequence, come over to England, at the latter end of May, judging, froim the experience of late esessons, that the presnt session would not terminate before the middle of July, for thie purpose ofauperintending his petition. He trusited that inquiry xonild be made into the sutbeitoi, in order that blame might fAll upon the petitioner if lhe had. caluminiated the Government, or uipon the Government if they had injured the petitioner in the seanner which lie had stated. (Hlear.) He cencduded, by moving that the petition be brought up. Mr.GOULBURN4 reminded the houre, thathe had only filled the office of'Secretary for Ireland forthe last 2 years. It could not, there. fore, be expected that he should beableatthemomenttogiveananswer to a statensent whiich related to facts of which tbelateet had occurred 11;years ago. He cautionaed honourable members against giving credence to the statements of' the petitioner because he was unable to refute them on the moment. Mlr. PEEL wvas not prepared to affirm or deny, just at the instant, any of the allegations in the petition. He bad had some experience of the conduct of the hon. person complained against in the dis- charge of official duties; andl from that knowledge he must be al- lowed to say. that he could be brought but very'slowly to believe any thing to'the disadvanitage of Dr. Trevor. He would only appe-al to the hon. and learned gentleman's candour,, if it would be fair to pursue any course with respect to the petition which might be sup- posed to sanction the dispersion of charges of so serious a nature withouit at least giving the party accuised time to instruct his, friends as to what steps he would wish therm to take for bis justification and defeance. He trusted that thle -honourable and learned gentleman would not persist in following up the presentation of the petition in the usual order. but would consient to defer any other motion beyond that for having it laid on the table, until. time was given to enable Dr. Trevor to meet the charges. Mlr. C. HUTCHINSOAN thought that it would be quite sufficient for the piescnt, if the right honourable Secretary wouild give apledge to Parliament that thiis case should be inquired into, and that justice shoutld be done : in which event he would rely firmly on the as- surance oftheright honourable gentleman, and advise bisbon. and learned friend to withdraw the petition. So faras Dr. Trevorwascoss- cerned, that would give ample satisfiaction. But the petitionerhadan. -o~skin ofclam, n wichthe character and conduct of the Doctor waot ofnecessaryconsideration..a. claimaofpecuniary compensation. for dt iloss of property, and it might be a much more difficuktques.. tion to bttle than the other. Wouald the right'hon.-secretary pledge himself to the discharge of' the duity he owed to the house and the country, by inquiry, and doing justice in tha't respect also ? If no such pledge could be had, theni musit he (M5r. C. Hutchinson) be al- lowed to say, that, having resided in Ireland from 1795 to the time of the rebellion and after, he had been an eye-,witneassto the conduct observed by the agents of Governmnent tlhere, anot to hiis certain knowledge outrages were almost hiabitually committed, of such a nature as never was k-nown in a civilized country. Those outrages, whichi, in his opinion, were one great moving cause of the rebellion, were practised withouit decency or remorse upon the Catholic popu- lation, even by theGovernmaesaitself in Dublin, and by their agents Iin the country, sol~ely on-sccountof the roligion of the suffercrs.. It was afterwards pretended that the rebellion was caused by the Catho- lics, though it was wellknown now that theCatholics joined the rebel- lionlongafter it wasPutin agitation by theProtestantsandPresbyteri.. ans. The cause of the rebellion, however, was not religious feeling. It was the intemperate system of'Government which was enforced 'by the domir,eering party, the conduct of which hid been so character- iistic of tYrannic severity, especially to the Catholics, that a great ilawyer of that. period, in his place in the Irish Parliament, (Air. 1Curran), said that they were trying to indemnify themselves by yen. I ieance for that which they had lest by law-alluding to the benign efforts which were thenL working for the Cathtolic bodty through the Iagency ofLord Hobare'sbill. There was nothing in tlieallegations ot'the petition which hiis own experience did not fauly justify him in believing. Sucli was the atrocious line of policy then pursued, that the most re8pectabltpersons in tlhecountry were not saf~e. Even that great man himself, who was the champion ofIhis.country'sli- berty, who struggled in that cause to the last houzr of his existence, M1r. Grattan, had been watched, and dogged, and hunted by the Go. verinet o thse hI.ate ties s arebel. The right lion, gen- tleanmigt hak ht lca...wa threany one who heard him who oul undrtae toden wha hesai? Wrhen he. firsttook'his seatin he ritih Prlimentin 803 heraisedbhis voice almost aloe o bealfof hesuferigs f Ielad.He was frequnetly not lisend t b, te ous, r hs ta'meta er deie.;A En-lis gentlemen would put no faith in what they heard, when they heard it as confidently denied by rish members. Iut now, thank God, English gentlemen had leamed to judge for themselves, and neither the assertrn of one member, nor the deaial of another, could weigh against the then conviction of the British Parliament. Sir J. MACINTOSHl undertook to withdlrhw the petition for the present session, with the view of bringing it forward as soon as the house ghould meet in the next, but not with any view of retracting a single expression of whathad fallen from him, or of invalidating any allegation. in the petition, concerning which-he must, till then, con. tinue in the same state of mind. ' DUBLIN CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION. Sir F. BURDETT rose to present a petition, which differed from the last in rnostofrthe particulars. It contained no painful references to thoso sad.scenes of anguish and wo which went before, which ac. companied, aund followed.the rebeDion in Ireland. It was couched in terms so approptiate, it stated viewrs se.accurate, it contained senti.' ments- so correct and just, that he had no hesitation in saying, that. the duty ofofferins itto the consideration of'the house w as aighly gratifvingto him as the putting it forward was creditdble-to the peti. tioners: the reception ofit would be honourable tothe Parliament,-and in no small degree benefidal to the interests of the publi -at lasge. The' petition. was sigr.ed by a ntimber. of gentlemen forming thei4selves 'into a Catholic Association in Dublin; and they met for -thejpsit and legatand la'udable-purpose of -instituting mea- sures for-recovering, by fair, legal, and constitutional mearns, rights wlich liad, -In his opinion, been only too long and 'unjustiy withheld' from the people of.tnat coantry. -The tpebtioners coniplained, that -they,had been most, p4osly misrepresenied:'if not inlthe speeche 7of some gentlemen-in Pgrlianidnt, at least-in- those channhli *hich: "ere knovr.generally to convey acearate informtation to the toun. l try of *hat .p3ssed withkiathe ' tWh:gi''tbc' Vttitioqers l ld I"ot preed to any nmowlodge of what aetu%Uy passd In the house, they complained that the representation3 of it teied in thie instance to injure their eharacters and feelinor and what was of more inportnce to them, those interests of Ireland hich it was thoiu chief object to promote. The petitioncr greatly desired to partici- pate in those- advantages which the constinationundoubtedly held out to all who were within its protection; and they alleged hat no portion of the community had ever ,lisplayed a more firm, unfeign. ced, disinterested, and persevering.lnyalty, than had the Catholics ol Ireland to the Crown of England. Notbing, on the otherhand, could be Ehore unjust. as nothing cold be nore untrue, than to charge the Irish Catholics with any deficiency of lonalty; and this charge ought to bereceived with the more jealousy from parties whose loy. -aMty was interested,'asad who wished to monopolize to their own ad. vantage all the powers of the stase, and to have at their eommraut all the emoluments of (Governmeot. It was _ species of loyklty, which, to say theleast, came before their view in a very ques -tionable shape. The partyto which the pesitioners alluded, and to xrhich u the-Dablin CatholicAssociation, the vwere oppored, was that v'hik- coUected its forcei under theasme cfthe Orange svstem: and- the members of that tystenr had the confiler.ce to comiplain in Parliament of the Catholic Association; -tbose members who asem. bled by-secret means-whose ties and objects were not revealed tc tke world-who used secrecy and hidden symibols-who had refused to make known their becret signs when called upon"ty the house- who had, in the person of their champion, baffled and defeated the power and functions-of the house, and set it at defiance, and in a measure carried a vicitory over some part of its privileges-whose in. stitution and purposes were declared by a considerable authority to be illegel_vwho confessed tbemselves bound by secret, and therefore illegal oaths;-the members of such an institution-so the petitioners complained-had the confidence and temetity to complain to that house of the Catholic Association, which met iu the eye of day, everv thing being publicly proclaimed-their proceedings not connived it merely,bute.early warrantedbylaw_the objectmostconstiiutional_ the means resorted to noless constitutional,their end and aim beingto recover their civil rights ard to prevent the avils which were likely to ensue from a continued denialof those rights to a brav2 and generous people. He wouldnot term8sechconductbigotry; it didno: deserve the name of that pnncmple, -unworthy as it was but still more worthy than the real motives which, in h is opinion. actuated the parties against whom the petition complained, and Fho thus sought to coloum over and varnish their purposei ith this contemptible pretences, onlv exceeded in degradation by that whicb reaUy influenced them, but which they dared not to acknowledge. These gentlemen had met together in Dublin, and formed themselves into an association for the laudable purpose of directing the attention of their countrymen to constitutional and pceable modes of obtaining redress-to keep their minds under a course of unmerited nffering and privation from the blacknes of despaif, and by' figlij-iheir hopes firm on the con. stitution and the laws, to preserve themselves from wandering into what had been eloquentlyternetthe ildernessofnaturalrights;-oo what could be more calculated'to drive the. imaginations of men back to the consideration of the natural means of force and violence than to shut them -out continuaUy from the advan. tages which- the consdtution held out to all who observed cvil Obedience? Tlis was the unhappystateof lreland-a state which, with the present enlightened mind of this' country, could not much longer remain as it was; and whenever the Parliament should take the subject in hand, they would have to regret that they had not made just concessions at an earlier period, when far less of them would have satisfied the Catholics, and tha might hae been granted with far less danger of embarrasement to the Governmeut. The petition was ordered to be printed. MIr. J. SMIITII presented a petition from the Chief Clerk in the Prothonotary's.office in the Court of Common Pleas of Ireland, praying for compensation for the loss of fees and emoluments. 1he LORD ADVOCATE presented a petition from the Dean and Faculty of Advocates in Edinburgh, against the Scotch judica- ture bill. Mr. ABEROROMIBY said that the iUlustrious advocate who headsed the profession wa5s wvell known to hae signed his name to it 'nerelyas the officer presiding; and there had been a protest signed against the petition, which contained among the dissentients the ncmes of almost all the chief ornaments of the profession. SirGEORGE CLERK presented- a similar petition from the gentlemen of the county'of Edinburgh. ft., IV. DUNDAS presented a-similar petition from the writers to the signet in Scotland. Mlr. HUMIE thought that this bill, which originated from the re. commcndations of a Parliamentary commission, was of such grave importance toehteimprovement of Scotch jurisprudence, that theses. on ought to be prr.tracted, were it only tbr the purpose of giving time to pass it into a law. What necessity was there for Parliament breaking up now-what objection could there be to sitting a fortnight longer ? Mlr. PEEL advised the hon. member to restrain the ardour of his zeal for just three miinutes, that the bouse might come regularly at the only order of the day, which wss for the second reading of that bill for the improvement of Sotch judicature which the hon. gentleman was so asxious to have passed inte a aw. Mlr. T. B. LENNARD presented a petition from the Roman Catholics of the county of Monaghan, praying for the repeal of the peajl statutes by which they were at present excluded from many of the advantages to which their Protestant feUow.subjects had access. The hon. gentlemaz saia he cordialUl supported the prayer of the petition, and called the attention of the house to the temper and moderation of the language in which it was conveyed. He vas sure that those most hostile to the claims of the petitioners would, when they heard the petition read, concur in this opinion. He had been requested by the petitioners to mpke their praver the subject of a specific motion, but concurzing with other friends of the measure in thinking thst the present time was net the most favourable for the discusion of that measure, he had dedined so far to comnply with the request of the petitioners. le hoped, however, that the same ob. jecteons would not exist next session, when, if no other member should be ready to introiuce the fieasure (a circumstance upon which he could hardly calcaUte), he-himself would bring it forward. He would now move that the petition k brought up. Mr. S. RICE fully concured in the prayer of the petition, and heethought it the more worthy of atten1tion, as it did not include any subjects foreign tothe question, IIe had not any doubt, that if the sentments ofth great body ofthe Roman Catholic of Ireland were expreased,shey would be found in unison with those of the petition. ers before the hous, sad equally unmixted iwith extraneCus moatter. The petition wras read, and ordered to be printed. DERRY CATh1EDRAL. lr. GOULBURN Presented a petition from Derry, on the sub. jectof the cathedral oIthat city; butfrom the low tone in which the rght heDn, gentleman spoke (and also from the indistinct manner in which t.he petition was read), we could not collect itsimport. Alr. DAWSrzON said. that he had no wish to misrepresent the in. tentions of the Dean and ChaPter of Derry; but he would now re- peat what h j'had before statd-that he thought they were bound to seeu the cathedral in repair. It was well.know4 to the inhabitants of Jierry that the cathedral had been in a state of decay tor the last 20 years. This, he thought,pshould not have bees the case, as, be- yond a doubt, it was the duty of the Dean and Chapter to keep it in repair. Se would now onlty add the expression of his hope that his right hon. sfriend (Ur. Goulburn), within whose province this matter more immediately fell would take the subject into consi. deration; if not,heshoudfeelit his duty to call the atteAtion of Parliament to it early in the next session. The petition was laid on the table. PETITION OF LIEUTJ-V'ANT PERROTT. Alr. HU.E said he had two petitions to present, which were very long, and would take up some time; but in deference to the righIt honouralele gentleman oopodite, he would mot bring them on to-night. There was one, however, which he would pre. sent. It was fromn .ieutenant Dundas Perrott, from whom he had lreadyr preseateda petition this session: but before hedid this. he wished to correct a misapprehension of what he had stated on i fanner evening on the subject of the impressment of seamen. He had statedl tht the port Admiral went on boardl the ship of Captain Jtrvia and exarnlned thefirstsx ment that came upon deck, as to whe. ther they had been punished, and finding that they had, he super. sededtbe Captain. He ( MIr. E[umehad stated, tbatifthaetwere a fair sample to judge by, it vrould followv that all the crew, or nearly all had been punished; but ie appeared that this wras not the case, for the A-dmiral had nottaken thesixmen as they came ondeck, but had examined 6ix men whose names had been previously given to him as having been punished. He felt it due to Captain Jervis to ,make this explanation of whlat he bad before stated. In speaking also oB that occasion of the "starting" on board the Dispatch, he had been misunderstood, and the Dispatce and Cyrene had been coupled together, as if the same circumstances had applied to both, wbich was not the case. The honourable member then proceeded to observe on the petition of Lieatenant Perrott, and stated, that when he last preented a petition from that gentleman, it was stated by an honoarable member ou the otherside of thehouse,that there was a document in possession of the Admi- ralty which would prove him (Mr. Perrott) guilty of the charge which bad been made against him. - that document was saud to be a forged protection to a saeman. Now the petitioner implored that this document might be produced if it existed, andjhe courttd the fuUest inquiry into his case. When he (ir. Hume) mentioned this subject in'the house on a former occasion, some of his hon. friends who sat near him, feeling the great hardbhip of Mr. Perrott's case, off'ered to enter into a subscription to cnable that-gentleman to pro- secute theparties-by-whose eonspiracy andfalo testimony his chaa racter'had been attacked. On mentionrig this to Mr. Perrott, he (Mr. Hume) was informed, that both the man and the woman were dead axd but for that circumstance,- Mr. Perrott would long before that Lave commenced the prosecution. The hen. member then en-. tered into a statement of Alr. Perrott's svices, and the great hard. ships he had endured from the prosecution against him. He haa lost his rank and was injured in his character. He now, therefore, prayed that the most strict inquiry might be instituted into the whole of the case, and that if he were not restored to his former station in the navy, thegross and unfounded imputations on his honotir mght beremoved. AMr. CROKE R would not deny that the-case was worthy of con. sideration, but after what had ben already done, there was no doubt left in his mind, that the accusedwas guiltyof that withwhich he was charged. It was a charge against an officerof the navy by persons connected with the navy, for having basely swindled them uRderpretenceof official reports. It was examined by the WNavy Board, and it was foun'd that a greater CaSe of fraud could not exist. Noneof the statements madeonithtoccasion were denied by the nsoner, except tt he had given a forged certificate- of protection. It aight be tue, but what he (Mr. Croker) had stated on tbe former occasion was -that a forged certificate of discharge, on the ground of having provided two subotitutes, was given, aI that such certificate was intended to operate as a protection. This document was in pos- sessonof the Admiralty, and he would have no objection to itspro- duction if. required. He would not oppose the petition being brourht up, -but lie would oppose its lying oti the table, leaving it to -the ho. nourmble member to move for tho production of the documents, if required. After a few words from Sir GEORGs COCKiuaS, which were who1ly inuadible in the galery, the petition was read. Ale. HUME, in moving that the petition do lie on the table, said he bad not intended to cast any aspersion on the Admiralty for what theyhaddone; -but he did object to the petitioner being subjected- to an accusation, avhen it was no longer in his power to- bring his accusers to justice. He was now anxious tbat the papers which were said to be in possession of the Admiralty should hb produced, and let hir character be freedafrom the aspirsions which had been cst upon it-The petition was then orderid te be printecL l. ir. JUDICATURE (SCOTLANDj BILL. Mlr. PEEL, in moving the orderofshe day for thc second readix of this bill, said, that in wishing that the bill should not prose - any farther this semion, he'was not actuated by any hostility. to the measure. So far from that, he approved of the principle on which it proceeded, ifnd no nian could have A higher respect for the commpi- sioners - on whose unanimUous report it was.founded. Bat as hb u;Aerstood that there was an anxious desire on the part of the Scotish rembers noi presents to consult- their constituents on the sabjectras numberi of the Scotch'people wished to present- peP titions to the house-respecting it, ind as mnany Scotch membiers had left town -with the irnpressnon thit the bill would nsot be pressed far. thee in the present sesion, hEihoujht tlhat the houaeaholdlpay that L-. - ..,- ,,....... detaetoc to Ud&m lsn not to, easyinhe nie.eut beyoM its ~Wgeit ataite. He was the Tnoer arnxious for this coarse, as the bill was only printed this day and as the appndix to the report eorn. tainng'the evridence on w$sich it WAS founded was no yet in prim. He would, therefoire, now mnove that it be read aL second time anid deter any- furTtber proceeding tMl next session, pleding himsetitlat at that timae it should have his most -hearty concurrece.~- Hi then Moved that the bill be read a second timne.- Mr. ABERCROMBY said, that if he had despaired of this bill when he came to the house, he despaired still more when be heard the statement just now made by the rightbhon. gentleman. Another bill which had been in that house (the ScotchjlTsrjbill) had been op.. posed by the satne descriptitin of personw-?hiid in many Instances by ~m e prsonswho now opposed thIs. -It -was dtlayed until the 'l4e eslshould consult their constituents, andl it was f6ud.~bgtthelearnedl lord (the Lord Advocate) sent down hisniaiai (fr so he hada called, and so he would con- tine o allt)tothe obedient freeholder, of Scodataidand seon aftr he oue har thirpettins ganstth bill I b would it be with this- meaue h bdetfehle,would be again oDnsulted aiid no ob the same resul would be producedL. If th ih on. gentl a M.Peel) was deternmoea on supp!orting the measure wyideasorte expresson of any opinionis of parties in Scotdand gis-t If he had already, made up his mind uponi its necesaity, twudbea farce to call upon parties to_express ethei opinioss agi.it; and if he were not so determiined, it was not fair so tod rbhm~.LooDkug atall the circumstances of the came, he wolsyta edespaired of the measure as long as therighthon.geteana noffice. This bill, he had no doubt, would3harethefe oantebiwhich twice passed that house, anid hid been thrown otnthe other by one of his Majegty's.Ministers. He was persuade thtthe discussion would not end till, by the force of pblic opinion, some bill would paiss on ra a ute tan the present measuxre. (Hear, hear.) Gentlemen mighit cheer, but he never den,ied tbat public opinion did prevail in thaLt house ; but what he complained of was, thit:a great deal of mischief was clone before public opinon operated there. That house was always some years behind the rcst of the commTunity. It ought, be con. tended, to be shown why the measure had not arrived in that house sooner, or whiy of necesiity the Parliament miust be-poroguedl before it culdpas. Hd ths brn ta orinsurrectionL act,-there would havebeenno qestin abut porogingthe Parliamient till the bill had assd. e afirmd tat he illmight have been there a- monthago, f thGoverinen hadpoceeed yjth energyndigour,' and he ost mpl tim wold hve een aff6rded for every discus.. sio tht culdhae ben esied.Hewished befiwe4',mat down to put two questions to the learned lord. (the-I 1e)i.ti; to which hetogtit imotn htcerai satisfiactor'y a nswers should be given. First, he wished to knolw vhether thex:tenmiseoners were unanimnous in a grelto the report to *hiicb:tAievhad afrixed their signatures? Mf thy were unanimous, nothini sinore.- calum-p nious could be state of any coDmmissioner thin that?-he -shouild after. wardsL have instigated every species of opposintioni to the measures recommended in the report. Itwasimpossiblethatcouldbe.thecuse, but it was desirable that sonie person who was in a situation to know the fact should inform the house that the report of the commissioners was unanimous. The second q1uestion WAS, whether,iat the time this report was agreed to and adopted by thel commissionrs, there was any understanding expressed or implied thatt this measure was not to be pressed through -Parlianjeat in this present sesion ? He (Mr. Abercromby) had -no interest in' this measure; in fact, all his interest distinctly lay the other-way; but theimportanceof thermeasare induced him toxsupport- it,"though he feared, judging from past experience of the resent pro&isedng with regard to it, that it would not pass; or if it lid, that it would be at some remote period which he should not live to see. Mlr. PEEL. and dlir. A3ERCeaOMMY MUtusilY explaned. The LORD ADVOCATE could hardly think his learned friend was serious in imagining that at this late period of the ie-ssion the bill could be satnisfactorily discussed; and as the operation of it was not to commence till the 1lth of Mlay next, there would be plenty of time in the next session for bringing it forward. In reply to the -question of the learned gentleman, as to thze unanimiity of the commissioners on the report, he would answer, that, to epc on such a subject that no sbadts of difference of opinionsi would exist., would be to expect what in the natuse of things was neatly imnpos. sible ; there certainly did exist shades of difference of opinion; but there was no such ditierence as to require a marked expression of It on the report; and therefore he would say, generaUly, that the report did contain the unanimous report of the commissioners. As to the other question of the honourable and learned gentleman, he could only say, that he hadl never heard of any understandinz Olt the sub. ject. There were certainly individuals who, *onside'ing the im. portance of thte subject, expressed aspion that it would beimnpos. sible for Parliament to pass the bill in this session. He thought it al- together unfair to ar-gue that delay was maeant to defeat the passng of this bill. If it were a sin to have prevented it passing in this ses- siin, he would acknowledge that he was the guilty individual to whom it should be attributed, but his motives werepefcl pure, being guided solely by a sense of public duty. He cncued by declaringr, that in t e next sesion of Parliament, If he held. his ax'. tuaition in thatt house, he wvould bring forward a bill to carry the ret- port of thecoDmmissioners %into fulland fairteffect. (Hear.) M1Nr. ABERCRO3lBY explaned. Mlr KENNEDY thought tlftrel question befre thne house was, not whether they were now to abandon the bill for this session1, or pass it without discussion, but the question was how were they re. duced to that alternative. Hehbad h3imself, before the Easter re. ceas, asked the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Peel), when the report might be expected to be laid on the table, and the right hon. gentleman had replied, that it would be reY4dy before themrees was over. But the delayanfurisbingtheappernhsxwhichcontesined the evidence was not of that importance as to delay the meiase ; for if the report was goodfor any tbhig, it woald emnbody the results of the evidence. From the proposed. delay, he was fearful that in the end the nmeasre would be sacrificed to ignoeaLnt clamour. Mr. T. COURTENAY regrettedI that the bill- had not been brought forward earlier, but- circumstanced as they now were, he was prepared to agree with hiis right, hon. fricnd (MIr. Peel) on the necessity ofliostponing the measure to anotherwsesion. Therecer. tainly had been the fullest communication between the commission. ers ; he therefore could not but suppose his learnedl friend (Mr. Aberromby) 'was fighting the air, in upsn there was any con. teated hostility to the measure on thepar6itiogayof'them. Hebeheved that the more the suggestions in the report were canvassed, the less opposition would be mnade to thte measare; but whether a clam,uxr were excited or not, the house would decide on the merits of the bill without regard to any opposition of that sort. Lord BINNING~ areed to the necessity of postponing the bill to the next session of Parliamient. Br ANNING consented to the pronosed delay in'deference to the opirnien of the people of Scotland. Hfe ventured to predfict, in opposition to the predictions of thlieon.and leaTnetl member opposite, that the bill would passintoa lawnextsession. (Hear.) Itwas hisopi- nion that the hoit,e would show itself to be wanting in diecie. tion if it endeavoared to force the bill through in the presenit ses- sion. The postponemnent of the meaure had been consented to by himself and his colleagues for the purpose of soothing the feelings of the people of Scotland, and by soothing, to overcome them. The bill was then rewd a second time; and, on the motion of M1r. PEEL, was ordered to be committed this day two months. EAST INDIA POSSESSWICNS BILL. Mr. CANNING rose to move the comniittal of the above bilL (The right hen.gentleman spoke in a tone much less distinct than that in which he usually addresses the house, aud indeed in some parts of his speech he was nearly inaudible.) According to a promise which he had given some nights ago, and repeated last night, he pro. posed;in moving that the house should resolve itself into a committee on the bill, to state shortly the nature of the negotiations out of which it proceeded. He tok the liberty of doing thiis, because.although the billwas moreimmnediatelyin the jansisot' his right hon.ffriend the President-of the Board of Control, the treaties from whirll it emanated ori&iated when he (Mr. -Canning) had tehnu to fill the office which his right honourat'le friend now held. In order to beable to form acorrect judgment with repect to the transactionst which he was about to detail ro the house, the situation in -which the Dutch were placed with regad to East India possessions at the last general peace should be coiled to mind. At that period all the possessions which had been taken from the Datch during theL war were, by treaty, restored to them. He was not now Calle upon to enter into a discussion as to the policy or expedency of that measure; but if it were necesary, he thioulehe'a prepared to show, that under the circumnstances 01 h iis it was the interest of this country not to press too aduo the Dutch Government. (HeAr, hear) But for his presetpr pose it was sufficient that what he had stated 'was -thefatan that the treaties by which the Indian possem-ions were retre,t Holland receivedI the unanimous approbatioin of Parliament. In this state mrmttersj.tood when he entered upon the office of President of the Board of Control, some time in J816.-I At that tiniemanv' sti. pulations of the treaties were only in the course of being carried into effect, and many others had been not very.Bistinctly or definitively explained, so tbatmany points were open - for discussion between, this country and the Netherlands. It hadlihappened, unfortunately, that out of'the naturail eagerness of one party to get possession of set. tlements from which they had been driven. by f6rce, , and the no less natural slowness, in auch an extensive trantsaction, of the otherparty to give them up, delays interposed, difficulties were raised, and a-de. greeofill humoarhad grow-nup ainonjttlie agenrs onboth sides,which required great managemient and forbe&rance to prevent leading to un. pleasantconsequeaices. Mluehofthis embarrassment was occasioned by- the conduct of the subordinatte ageits of the East India Company,who went firther than tlpy-had any riglhtto go. They took upon them. selves to questioni the polic of thie treatits biy which the possessions bail been suirrendered to th Dutclh, and looked rather to remedy what they conceived to be the error of the stipulations than to carry them into effect. elewas wiwllngtogivethe servants of the Company credit 'for the patrioitismn, pride, or generous feelings by which] they might have been actuated, but when agents, at a dis. tance from their Government, forgoDt or departe frm the pur. poses for which they had been appointed, they imposed upon Go- vernment the necessity ef stupporting stall extremities, and at what. ever inconvenience, or of at once disavowing their proceeding's (Hea.) e sokewithn cin as, wenhe stated that in the couise ofIIB nd 817 no les tan alfa dzentreaties were negotiated by te idivduas t whm h ha aludewithoutthesliadow of an -intrutio fo tht prpoe. e flt tbis duty to inform the East India ompan, ~at he Crwn wold witlihold its sanctioni from all those treaties. About this period repeated 'rpresentations were made to him of the grasping disposition which the Netherlud authorities showed, of their evincing a desire to drive the Englsh out of he trade, and to retain the exdusive possession of it themi. selves. As wchiisduty,he constantly desired that a specific act of that nature should be pointed out to himi in order that he might bring it before the Netherlands Government for its disavowal. -His request, however, so often repeated, was never complied with. He could only obtain general assurance of the covetous disposition of the Dutch, of their determination that we should never have - a sail in those seas in. In vain did he cal] for facts, he was only met by an obscure kiidefreferenceto the" massacreofAmboyr.'S(Laughter.) On the other hand, he received complaints from theNetbeilands Go- vernraentof-thetardiness of the British-agents, and of a desire on. their part to indemnify their countryforthe restorations of-territory which their Government had maide. It- happened, too, inolt unfortunately, that at the time to which - he was' referring, an indvidual, in one scare most distinguished, who had ex-. hibited grest-zeal 'and abilitv whilst Sfiing the office of Go. vernor of Java (Governor kAfcs), was sent as residend- to Benhcoolen.Someho-f orother, however,-the humblenaaneofresident, which id3plied nothing rmro than a -superintendeirt of peppep, was changed into the high.soundingtitle of l4ieutenant.GovernorofBen coolen. (A lajigi) The etberlands Government took the' l-rni. at this circumstance, and imagined-that the British inte&ded to mnalkt Sunmatra the seat of a Government among the islnds equal in po iri to that which they-posssed on she continent et India. Thus did' iU humour and angry feelings -arise betweer-vo-r nadtons whose bestpohcy it wastoremain onfrieidly tenus with each other. iThe chief complaint against the Netherlands Government ivas fthit it acted on the princileof exclusive trade. Tbe first step,-- therefore, wvhich e hada tkenmnthenegoisualwF oen *bichte bill bepre the house proceeded,wats to obtain a disavowal of'that prisscile' on the pert oE ijie 2Netherlands Goveniment. lt'ws -not, to be aiare',1 uuva11 dioa to. feaus bu"le foe tkhPe OfNO togpsne1pla,bu saIn the promet cms It was t y0 point By the Same trat; 'GatBrw be caine of Santaore pow.thed8trntof illace an of India Thou eslands 'were Of no ie tt -iripotace in themselves; but!there weremanAY ianconenient questionis of rights and revenua' contaeted with them. For example, the Datch' asserted a claim to participate La the trade in. a sum, which we never alJowi& WVhen the Enqlish conmplalnied opf the desire-- whicii, she evinced to maintain an exclusive trade to tOwe is"lans, the wer -apt ti excusethemselvesby arfeeteneto theexampleof the Enellith on the continent of India; bygetting posesion of the kishans,them fore, we ceased to have any cause of complaint, and att the same tiln, got rid of the Snqnoqucof tbeDutch. The objects,thetn,whichit, was egoe to attain by the tetaty were, first, the recognition of thep rirlplee ofa free trade; aeeoodly,the acquisition Of8ineor and the getting rid 'of the Dutch possesiors on the contiftebt- India, and consequently of renoving tbose grounds of irritatio which would have existed so Idaig as the Dutch pussessions had re. traied oteinied wth ars Evry one of those objects kad been attained by- the trety. In return for all these advantages, we haid given up Bencoolen, and had agreed upon a line of dearcaton betweentbeflriteb and the Dutchsettlements. He tho~ught that he cou do us leethehos that the cessionofBenvcoolen couldLnotbeem- sidereda vaery eiouslosby(GreatBritain. Insaolttleasidmtion'ws Benceolen held by the East 'India Company, that they had actally, mnooted the quesuon of its total abandonment, and they had resolved to retain it, noton its own account, but because It was not known into whatbhandsitniight fall. So far was Bericoolen from being of any advantage, that it wasatspl1y maintained- at an annual charge of 83,tXD0. The ony returnwhich it was pretended the island'coul4 mnalitsfoe this expense was the productioni of spice. But it should be known that thec Indian Government had given the grourid, furnish. ed the plants, and jpaid fir the ,aultivation of those very s)iiecs (ear,' hear.) -Could it be wished t.lat vwe should retain poasesion of ~gncooleti onthoesetermav? When it had been pro, and,"miost wliely in his-opinion, to abandon BencoolenAltc=gter, witboat my re'turnl, it was ak little hard that, people should quarrel with Gnvemn. mient: for getting something for it ...(A laugh, aind "h ear.") Ile was awarethatit badh'eeliveid,thacin-giving up Bcencoolen we had fIamniahedthe Dutch with the'rmeans of carrying on a mpost valuable rtrade in spime With that-be had ntothing t6 do, the Indian Govern. ment having (as we undersood) made tile sPice.Plan'astions after the' treat had or'iginatedl. Hfe believed, however, that the' axiety which seemd tio be felt on that scre would be abaLted, when It was known that the Eait India Company had now in their.storel from, five to Six years' consumptioin of every kind of spice. (Hear.) Under thes eirreuamtances, it was not probable that: the country would be exposied to the want ofcinnamon...he meant to sany of nutmegs and pepper. 'The mention of clanamon reminedj him thittwe had-amonopoly of that article. When it was made a mattir of complaint against the Government that they bad not wrest. ed more fronm the Dutch, he must declar that he really could not have theface, even innthat bouse. to say that we had a right to ex- pect mote than we bad obtained. How could we compalail of the Dutch having a monopoly of spice., when we possesed aL monopoly Of Cinna,mon, opiuim, salt, &cc. It milght afford some consolationt to those perswns wno had a particular regard to those savoury iogredi. outs, to knew that Sincaoes was founEd to be particularly well adapt. ed for the production of ppices, anid although it would' take some time to bring the plantations there to maturity, yet as the Bast India' Companlyhad si yer coaumptiom' in their poesiot, theprobr., bilityr was, that unless soe onewappetite for spices should be created we should h aye some of outr own production btform the stock On hanal could be exhausted. He did not, however, suppose the Dutch would be niad enougk to mainitain the monopoly, in the spice which had been found perfectfly unProfitable up.1o the present period. He did not pretend to bea 3Ludge of the value of-Sl1'capore, which we had gained by the treaty. He only knew that "from the timne when he firstbecarmeconnected with. Indianaffit .> Sincapore had been pI ted out to him as the one thing needfu te linum 'seer,. sarium,4 for mlaki the British EmpireIn India complete. (Hear.) ItcoDMpletely, Wimanded the Straits of' Malaccag, which were A MOat iMpoetat channel .of navigation. In addition' to this advantage we had obtained from the Dutch a pledge to the maintenanceof free trade to a greater degree than had ever be- fore been practised by any power in Asia, and had- ut a findl extinction, to the Dutch title on the continent of India. in ~return for these aavantae we had.glvcen.the Dutch the lbarren settlement of Boaet,oen, whch cost 85,OOl.,wbhich it-had been inL contempii.. tnon to abandon. Surely such a price couldl not be considered too, dear. He trusted that the house would be ofopinion that notih'it was done by the treaty which was inconsistent- witli the interet ot' Britsh. postessions in India, or of those larger national interets to whichi the former were subordinate. The new ions would h-! plcdunder the administration of the EAst India Company, who wldgovern thera under the same responsibility -which attached to them in the administration of the other Bfritith Indian pos sessions. The bill, - of which he mioved the secondl reading, was intendad merely to give efrea to the treaty -whichi hi hid tie. scribed. RMearbesi.) Mr. H ME was of opinion that it would ultimately appear that the mccessions which this country had made were of greater import. aLnce than the right hon. gent. would have them appear. He too- demned the policy which the right honourble secretary's pre dfeveaorinthieForeign.office had putrsued with regardl to our Indian poosesalos. He thought that the noble lord, by givigu the Wsand of Java, had not only broken faith with the nativea,sdior he turned over, bound hand, and foot, to the Dutch, but bad iniflicted a depwoud p or ommrcal ntress.He regrtted that the righ ho. getlean hd astaied rom xprssig an opiniion with resec toth poic ofth nolelor. eul surethithe must conden It The iglihon. entlman ad said, thaLt it was thought tigh, a th cocluionof he ar,to favour the Nethier.. 'lads gsenmec. ut f tat ereto be the excuse for surrendrn aa why-had not allthe Dutch possessions been aban- domed on the sni_principle? Wlhy did England retain theCape of GowdHope, and Demerarma ad Essequiblo. The cession of Java, - he mainitained, took place in uitter atrseof the interets ofEinr- lan, sd t t grat:supise antioy4ofthe Dfutch. Notwith. staningtheridcul ubch thergth gentleman attempted to cas upn Gveror affes,he elivedthat if Goveronment had actd uon he las o ths oficr,they would have avoided thos blndes wichtheyhadco,mited.Every act of our Govrnmnt n te Est ndis wntupon the very same ptin. cipewhc the right hor. genit'eian haLd that evening turned into ridicl because it had been acted upon by Sir. Stamford Itfis'He could never sgrse to, the presnt bill, because the treaty whiclh it ratified violated almost every other treaty which we had made for years past with the native powers in that quarter of the globe, and trans-ferred them, bound hand and foot, to the domninion - of the Dutch, who had used their power in India with greater cruety than any other European naztion' It was idle to sup- pose chat this treaty would -put an end to all the henrt-burning and jealusy which we had had for years past with the Dutch,' it might, perhaps, allay them for a sho,t time d1uring a period of poem; but would not they revive again in faul -vigour wheneverbhostilities should take pla,ce? It was said that we were getting id of amoniopoly. This hedeniied. The restoration of these islands to the Dutch would create as great a monopoly at the end of six years as existed before we had thiem, and would, be- sides, completely ruin the fortunesioCmany of our own planters It might be known to some members ofthe house that aspice plants. tion took about 20years to come to perfection. Now,several of our plantations had -ust arrved at that period of their growrth in which they wire most liey zto remunerate the exertions oi their owners. Wbould it not boa heatc.brean circumstance tothose individuals to findlthatalltheirc-frorts wrrerendered abortive bytheignorancewhich our negotiators had exhibited of that fact ? After abandoning the nativesi to tile Detteb, it was neot, perhaps incensistent to consent to- the ruin of murown planters for th e sake of a few advantages which in his Opinion were trifling and inoonsideratle. Indeed, he would ask what were those advantages? WVASit.one of them thatwe had los evry or intheStrit ofSuna,and had so given up the commnd hichwe ad mce ossesedovtr the whole East lndian archpelao? I "wa tru tha wehad obtainedl all the ports in te Srait ofMalaca,and lsothe irland of Sincapore; but s totheformr h woud meely'obsrvethat a pg stye was as good; and-as to th atr htw were in the; possession of it before. -lHecotene,a fteewr n en ing in-this act, we had excludd ourselves from the whoetaef the Eastemn Archipelago, and by so doing hiad deprived the natio of incalculable advantages. He then quoted several passages from Mlr. Cftwford' book -on the eastemn sea, for the purpose of showing the great extent to which our commerce in that direction might be extended, and proceeded to condemn the minisiters for having sacri- ficed by a atrok of the o, all the advantages which might have been derived fromn that quarter. He maintained that, if the house wished to act -with good faith, and to preserve the interess of the counry, t culd ot cced tothe resnt bll;To pass this bill woul 'h vitualy t acnowldgethetreat to which it referred, andto ivethehoue~achace f ecapng romsuch disgrace he should ove asan amedment hat th Chair ano leave the chasir Mr. RBERTSN codemne thetreaty which haLd been made wit the Government of the Netherl ands, and contrated the negli- gence of the English negotiators with the judicious precaution of the Dutch. He contended, that by giving up Bencoolen wc should - gre%tlyinjru China tradle, which at preent produced tliree mil- lions annually to the revenue. The occupation of tile Straits of Sunds by an enemy's lftet woald coDmpel our China veslsels to go to China by the way of New Holland, and would thu% add-to the usual voyage a distance equal to.that froin England to the West lndies Tfhey had beea obliged daring the last war to takq that route, in con- sequence of a rumour of Admnira l inois having taken possession of these Straits. He pointed out the indefiniteD language in which the: treay was worded, and concluded by secnding Alr. Li umies amend-. ment. Mrt. G. WYNN stated that the psasing of ihis-bfll would'make no difference as to the execution of the treaty to which it ref'erred, linasmnuch sit had been already ratified, and had been guarnut ee~ b the good faithof the- country. le thought that the speeclll J~the bon. member for Aberdeen referred rather to the treatY. of 1814 than to the present treaty, a3 he did not seem acquainted"- with the placsto which alusion was made in thelatter treaty.- He denied that in case of war our trade to China would' be entirezly a4 !the.mercyof'-the Dutch. Bencoolen was not a fortification of anY - strength, and wattever power was mster of the tea,was also master of Bencoolen. Waea we were atpeace with the Dutch. wt were en- titled by this treaty to fiiendly offices at -Bencoolen ; and wben we went to war with them, he had no doubt tat we should be able to taLeit. He contendedthat web dnotbeen guilty of anybreach of faith to the nativepowers in ceding these islanu3tso the Dutcbh .and further argued that the price of spices had not been incresed, but on the contrary had been diminished by their cession. He concluded de"i that he gave his warmest support to this bilL 'Mr. RIGHT eppoed it, because he believed that the treaty which onlyaiede ba of good faith.to the nativepowersa and wasonlyrmadebytheDutchforthepurpose of being violated. Ho contended that the -islands ceded werepart of the property of the Crown of England, and that being such, they could tot be ceded without the consent of Parliament. He called upon parliaMent to to withhold that consent, and to throw out the present umaure. blr.ASTELLsupportbthebill,contendingtbattheireat towh:ch it referred was well calculated to put an end to all the ainerences which existed between theEnglish ad Dutch. Goreromesntp He de-- niedthac the treaty'gae the commani-of the Straits of Sundato the Dhatcb. As we had%inoe of Waless island at oneeid ot'them, Sincapre at the ether, - d Mtalaeca-lir eentre, we had fWi1 or- man-of thot Stait, ind therefore could no. receive any matoia' annoyance in-our trade with China. - Mr. TRAYT eixaeehimsrIf in favour of. the bill, ana de.- cared that it was grie'aflyapproved ofbythteinerchalAttofLoniin. Sir C.-FORB5S iaid, that in looing ever this iuety-he..could- consider it in iso otberlight`thana a &division of spoil. 'etti.the English 'and1 uteh Governmeuts, in which no . attentiob whatever wa ai tn e elsi ef tbe native power. H e ilbord-that the- .srsogtmad6wlthi}efl)tchshadseveraladvatagsupothefraed.- ofi4 bus o(tbeDbtch d,aracterta,ighthimtofertha those- votyda~riedvedIn *ltepsation6 inTcapoee,ear _ .eamma W~advothfi ~~~dX} fSmS=~~~~~~~~ta *,oeeii so s of the DuTtch extedition against Borneo, which induced to ssapect that their deugns upon that island would be quickly! d by snilar designs upon Sumatra, and the other islands of Arc4 iplso wrhich we had ceded to their tender mercies. Now ld a k the nighs lion. secretarywhether, when hezigned'diis iry, Its any knowledge tbat the Dtatch hadsent an expedition -= ToW? a.nd whether he would have signed it, had heknown ? frt . The hon. baronet then proceeded toread extracts from a P blished at Sincapore, to show that a Dutch expedition it SI ed fro Jaira in September, had sailed 300 miles up e I ingto the interior of tarneoand had returned in safety, Z ,, UWn. trhe natives, who scarcely offered any resist- T ht Dutch Govemnment bad thus ecome the undisputed St5 OfBoraeov withaU the mines, &c.,-which it contiintd. ao ad from another paper an account of the impo?t dutiei thte Dutch had established at Borneo, froni whickt is appeared ducev 12e:t6 per cent. on all Mualay praduce, 2 per cent. on Dutch Iac, 1244 M lceut. upon gnods brought in other European vessels, I 2IN-mt. hn the invoice price of European cottons. Having a c, o?ther statements to show thst it was not a mere idle r t t he ppearatce otrfanAmerieaniinfluenceintheStraits Sna , hetroceded to .eg.t the precipitation with which our .trb as acted. If they had waited for the arrival of Sir S. - 'kich was daily expected, they might have escaped-many 'te er or into which they had fallen. He allewed that inzttionIs of our negoiators were good, but he contended that y cf the provsions to which they had assented were not the Ml wi and niudent that could be imagined. BxCd5O1 *MONEy assertea that the Datch were not in possession Bo IiOhey h md merely military settlements at the moaths of cef By th very treaty, w.hose advantages all the op- *t of ts ' bill uede.ralaed at the same time that they exag- It-'a SInonvenciaes-by this very treaty we haf a full right nted to us to trade to Borneo, and to demand to be received e; tLhe sam footing as the mostfriendlypowers. Itwastrue Stte plIAst whilc the Datch had ceded to us on the continent InDlia lwere territorially cf no gre;t importance; still they might e Ccasioned as somie annoyance by- iing refuge to our diiaf. zed subjects,and by fnabling smuglers to trade clandestinely b cur settlenents. The settlement of Sineapore was Lhecominr- to and t2o.-e important every day, and the country was highlv in. -ted to Sir S. ahfisfor thefbstering care with which he had su- inmt-ded the planting of it. The negotiators of the treaty e ectitled to the grmtitude of every man who had any conimercial !oItO`el BAILLTE said a few words -which were inaudible in the kmrt fro. the loud cries of " Question" wvhich resounded from _ quarter of the house. *r amen1dmenr t was then put, and negatived without a disision. e hoUse then resolved itself into a comnliLtee. In the committee. hr. HUME wiAed to kniow from the chairman, whether the set was the proper oppotunity for inserting a clause in the bill- sire cMspensation to those planters whose fortunes would be ned bv it. hr. COURTENAY, the chairman,apprehended that there must iastzeec cmmittee fortheappropriation of money to such a lir. C.A,\sNNI'G observed, that if it could hereafter be nmade ap. wtr. that the planters had sustained loss from this bill2 he sald hive no ob'ection to take their case into consideratuon: :it vod bef*oolisl to make any arrangement regarding enrsgC ~ fhe planters before it was known whether they were a ,lStfer loss, if the house held out a promise that if persons Fcre~tta loss thevahould receive an indemnity, it was clear that they uld s;ucr a less in oTder to obtain the promised indemnitv. Iher a few words from alMr. Rumg. the bill was reported to the -V, sxd ordercd to be read a third time to-morrow. SUPERANNUATION FUND. Ur. F. BrUXrON moved the order of the day for the third read- - of the supcrinmuation bill. If this subject liad come under un- -c nsid-raiion atan earlierbour, lit was then half-pst 1 o'clockl, sh=Id kave called the attention of the house to the situation of tain ustom-house ofice, and aiso to that of certain occasional -waiterr On account of the lateness of the hour, he should not er upon either of those subjeats. There was one suiiject, how- ?, lloz whi'ch lie felt himself compelled to say a few words. woaLd be in the recoIection of the house, that in conse- !ttt of the distress which existed some few years ago, the su- arxnn:cai act was passed, by which a certain per centage s taklen from the salaries of all the inferior members of the Go- mnen?. CoupIed witi that measure was another by which a vo. -tzzy contnibcuon of 10 per cent. was taken from the salaries of -se whto flled the higher offices of the state. Now it appeared to hat anthe same principle which applied to the first clas of theme .cto,as of salary aso, applied to thesecond, and that if the house ,e its sanction to a Tnessure which gave to the inferior clerks their I wtax .nrm of salary, it would by some clause in this act virtu- F re*al that clause of a former act wbich took 10 per cent. from hisher officers. He w sure that the house would do so when rccollecte that the redaction in both cases was mpde at same time, proceeded from the same cause, and was liable ehe smae objection. The objecdon against the superannua. n fund was, that it authozized a separate and exclusive taxation ; leavimg out of conxideration whether it was right to reduce salaries or riot, the sum taken fiom them by this fund s learly exclusive taxatlon. Another objection to it was, that ist. we grnnted with one hand, we withdrew with the other_ pmacrice which he considered in every way reprehensible, it being :r better to gire a certain sum at once, than to have recourse tg i a double-vaged system. These reasons applied alike to the rks and to the heads of offiices; but thete was another reson, h as confined to the latter clus of persons only. He thoughtl t tie bh:gh officers of the Crown were not overpaid, and that their amiwer riTOt too great,consiWering the establishments which they re obligrd to keep up. Upon the principles which he hald laid Rn, anr genrleman who tliou-ht the slaries of ministers too great re wote for him to-night, anis to-morrow come down to the houlse I propose that their salaries should be cut down by a dfrect and all'iible measure to the anmountat which thcynow stood. These re hfis opinvion, an he isould nor have been hsappy if he had not i an oqportmnity of statinc them before Parliament broke n.- Of u;e &runsters could not he expected to speak upon this qustion ,CDset, but he trusted that they would, in a futture session of Eantent, treat this xubject as if they were indifferent to It. (A :gls from Mr. Hmnu ) lIe knewY the mesning of that laugh, and o the satimneut wshich his hon. friend meant to convey by it. would therefore state the reasons which had induced him to act ie bad done. The clerks bad applied to him to underte ther e. UTpon mLture comsideration he conceivedittobeajdstone; the decIined undertaking it, recommending them to merest at to nenmembr of Parliament who had greater influence with the zee than he bad. In consequence they intrusted it to the hon mber for Yorksbire; and the result had been the introduction c -pmrsent bill. If he(Mlr. F. Buxton) had introduced the bill, he raId hare=nade the same statement to thehossse on introducng it -thelbaJustmadetoit. In sayingthis.ie wanted no adventa be conferred on any particular class; on'the contrary, he should uathed if the house took mcasurcs as would meet andanawerthe xre of the ease. Mlr. E[UME reminded the bouse that the superannuation aCt bad -ca -t of a recormendation of his Majesty tornakea reduction the alaries of the public officers proportioned to the change ics had thcn taen place in the currency. The house accordfngly l ao i and he now caied upon ienot to be led away by erroneous =iplesofcornpaaion. Tie noble Alarquis who brought that asrura into Parl ament, told them ihat if a reduction of 15 t. were made iLx the salaTies of the clerks above 2001. lia hd be:n increased during the war, the clerks would be a beter saiuation, even vwhen so reduced, than they everl I ben w-hilst t-ey were receiving their highest amount of salary. =<-crinir this bill to bo a great dereliction fromn the principles on ieb the fbrrner bill was founded-considering also. that there had a rreat dimminudoitoftaxes since the pasing of the former bill I that the income of every man, save these ierks, had decreseid consequcncc of the change which had taken place in the public --ties, he shonld wish that further time should be granted for the c=sion of this question; and, in order to obtain it, he should re th3 the bili be read a third time this day six months. tUr. BANKES, Sen., seconded the amendment. This bill had not 'u- ffidenry considered; and though it was very extensive of :H, t.e han. member for Weymnouth had wished to rnix un with ctnathr qarsrion tnrally inJependent of it. The reduction of -v to the h cgher officers of state was a voluntary measure, and s li=iiac to a duration of five years. The reduction of salary to i nferior clerks was ordered by Parliament, and wvas made per- Q Th-t 7bll would entalu an annual expense of at least2,OOOl. n the public. EHs h.n. friend (the member for WVevmouth) bhad dit C!-ghtbe30,l0Ql., and would render it necessary besides to re- X to t'h clerks thatper centage on their salaries which they had -c.paidinthelast twoyears. Thatsunm,hebelieved,woulddisturb * firic of the country, as the surplus ofrevenue above our actual =Tlturewas notlare,wen thesuin dedicated to the sinking fund sdoffi. After pointing out several anomalies In the proposed d_ cfspicrennation, the hon. memnber concluded by stating, * "-ze homse would have plenty of time ia the next session of -o=:n:et to give this subject the fullest consideration. !r.. CROKER, in reply to an assertion of Mr. Bznkes_that no _.-tion hmaduaken place in the saltary of the inferior clerks, tx- s the valuation of 5 per cent.-abaerved that before the 3superan. t_in bIlM was brought in, a committee, consisting of the heads of vx=*nts, bad sat da:ly at the Chancellor of the Exchequer's, ; 1ad revisd d reduced all the offices. In his own office, every h hail lost 101. a-year, or in that pronortion. Even clerks with _ a-Svea had bad the odd SOLlopped off. k. IUSHLNGTON apProved of this bill, and thought that the efcE=crs of ste were under-paid. IL At a;s deldared that it was a disgrace to the country to see iFnanner irn whiei the Lords of the Admiralty were remu- ziai tar their services. ilr. S. RICEapproved of the bilL -4r. C. 7I$RBEScomplained that the Secretary to the Board of z.un he nly public of cer for %hose services, hoirever long, Mv wutniadeinanybill. (Hear,heai.) l%r. cSs.iNG expressed his opinion that tfie Secretarv of the al.-d of Ccanro outght to be included in the same scale of provision yhur p nubEc o5cers; because, indepoendealy of the labour which a f-riioiar y perforrmed, it was desirable that a person who I g> .Je infimatiOn necessnary to the performance of the ssofrhtoffice-ieforroation which was not, I)Thaps, of so in- -r n a ,re as t-ht conected wvith Buronen politicsshoutld he to; canrinecJJn it. He thoughat it nteuessary to say thus much .g as F was, pehaps, owing to some feelings of oc, whes President of the Board ef Control, which prevented a interfering 2nthe pension bill, that his own hon. friend, the sseet V was left without any remuneration. a kill was then read : third time, and passed. d he tmainn of the CIeALLo of the ExCsE uEI n, thi- :x] seprZonal adrsts were agreed to. 17he OdterouLers of the day were then disposed of, and the house ed atMA rAST TWO G'CLOT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURsDAY, JUNHE 17.