House Of Commons, Tuesday...
The Times, 1824-03-03T00:00:00

i!nr. uoocH presented a pethion trom butblck; Llr. lioNYwoon a petition from Kent; Captain PEiCY a petition from Lincolnshire. praying a repeal of the duty ulon coals. ILr. Gooclt presented petitions from four parishes in Suffolk, hIr. Alderman WOOD. a petition from the ward of Cripplegate - MIr. WIL1;IW8, a petition fom Radnorshire; isIr. GREY BEN- N ET twe petitions frorn Nortumbelnd; -and Lord ALT}sORP, a petition from Ntorthamnpton, fray ing anmelioration in the condition of the Negroes Isn our g eat India colonies. EXCISE LXICENC'ES. Mfr. Alderman WooD, Mr. TiHO.MAS WILSON, Mr. DExmAN, and Air. CiALOXER, presented-petitions, praying for a repeal ol the duty on excise licensces. Air. DENMIAN strongly objected to voting large sums for churches and public buildings, and leaving the country still exposed to the pressure of beavy taxation. SMALL DEBTS. Air. B. COOPER presented a petition from Glocester, in favour of the bill for the recoverv of small debts. INS'OLVENT COURT. Nr. JONES presented a petition from a person of the name ol Sylvanus, stating certainhardships wbichhad accrued upon him our of the laws of the Insolvent Court. lie l9rayed of the house to re. vise the laws vwith respect to insolventdebtors, and to limit the pre. sent powers of the provisional assig1nee M1INES IN lRet'LAND. Sir H. PARNBELI presented a petition from a mining com. parry in Ireland, stating that a new company, to be called " thic liN- bernian Mlining Company," was starting, and would apply to Par. lianment for incorporation. The petitioners prayed that the hIousc would consider tihe application of this new conrpany, and not grant any thing injurious to their (thIc petitioners') interests. SirJOHN NENWPORT tirouglrt that, in the present conditioii of Ireland every fair encouragemenrt-he did not mean monriopolv_ should ne most sedulously afforded to speculating eapitalists. CR'I,aINA1, LAW. Mr. G. LAMB postponed his motion for allowing counsel (to speak) for felone, to the 6th of April next: this would be aftcr the circurt. SALMON FISIERY. aMr. HUME presented a petition froni the town ofArbroath, corn. plaining of certain prohibitory regulations which impeded the Scotch salmon fishery. He thought that the system now in opera. tion (and to confirm wlhicl the petitioners understood that a bill was being brouglit into Parliariient) dirninisheri the su pnlv of lisr to the public, and tenaed to confine tbie trade to a few hanAs: POLICE OF THE AIETROPOLIS. Alr. HUME rose to brirng forwtarl tire motion upon this subject. of wihieh lie had given notice on a previous evening. Ife wished thiat a return should be laid before the house, of the number of per- sons conimnitted in the years 18321, 1822, and 1823, to the prison oi Newgate, and the other prisons of L ondon, Aiddlesex, and Surrey; giving the nasme of eah magistrate, with the number of person, committed by hhRt; and stating the eventual disposa's of such per. lsons, whether discharged for want of bill found, discharged by pro. clamration, convicted up on trial, or formally acquiteted. Mlr. HOLMVE SUM'sNER asked whetlrcr thre hon.gentlseman', motion extended to the county magistrates of Middlesex and Surrey or was confined to the police magrstrates ? Alr. HUME saiti that hiis return would extend to the county nia. gistrates. Mr. If. SUMNER, in that case, was prepared to oppose it. No gentlenian would act as a magistrate if he waS liable to be called be. fbre the house upon such motions. Lortl ALTHsORP said that he was a imiagistrate for Nortlhamiipton. slire, and lie should be asharned if' he felt any oirjeciorr to hiaving his nanmc brought befere tire house on airy occasion. (flear.) And lie was ouite certain irat the mrass of English country geritlencn wouldbeof thesameway oftthinking. (Hear.) AMr. AtABEPRILY also, as a magistrate for Surrey, protested against the doctrine of the hon. menmber (Mr. H. Suniner). Hec thought that iE amnounted to a slur upen tlre magistrates of Surrey, (Hear,ha. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBU JL thouglit the liou. menmber for Surrey justified in resisting the hon. niember for Aberdeen's motion, inasmuch as that no ground whatever lIad been laid before the house for it. He begge farther to rcrrrark, that mucI trouble anic expense was occasionca by calling for papers which were not absolutely ne. cessary. lfr. HUAIIE had not troubled the liouse vith the groeinds of Iiis motion, merely because he thouglht he had sufficicntlv opened tlrenr on the occasion wben he had given notice. The fact was, that he had found, out of the conrmitnents by magistrates of lIondon, a much greater number (in proportion) of convictions titan followved those ot the magistmtes of .1Middlesex and Surrey. By the return now moved for, he meant to get at the cause of that ilifferenrce. He would say further, that there was no check on the conduct of country magistrates, excelrt public opinion. Their carelessness in sifling the evidence of cases was well knowr ; many an innocent man was sent to prison through it, and sacrificed for ever. The lion. gentleman might not be very willing to own it, but the fact w,as that no Iess than 600 or 700, being one half of the commitments in one return, were discharged, either by acquittal through defect of evidence, or because there was no bill. No magestrate could object to the exposure of Iris name in the returns now moved for, bitt those who were conscious of having done wrong. If the renoltitios pro. duced any real inconvenience, tie would be the last man in the liomise to put the officers and clerks of the county courts to the trouble. But lie was convinced that there couldbe no remaonableobjection to lt. Mir. ASHURST could not see how any individiral mlagistrate at- tacked in the house, could lhave adequate irmearis and opportunity for defending hiniself. AIr. DENNMAN was astonished at the position assumnedi by the bon. gentlemen who opposed the returns. It was assumed that in proportion as the power of the magistratcs increased, in sticir propor- tion must they be left more and iriore irresponsible_tlhey were, in short, to do whatever pleased them. Tlhere was no objectiorr in the mind of tlle hon. member for Surrey to returning the names of the police miagistrates; surely the objection was nrs great in tire one case as the other. What right liad the county magistrates to this distinction ? The police magistrates were responsible to tie state and to the house; the county margistrates were responsible to the house; and if not there, they were rcsponsible no where. Thiere was an appearance of soreness, in the tircad of disclosure, which was discreditable to tie magistrates tlieiselves. Tie Secretary of State haul oftered no objection to tie return. He wotld ask tire house only to consider the enormous powers conmritted to the county iaa- Listrates; foi instance, the trcspass:act, aird othiers which passed, one, two, or more, every session, conveying to them the power of sum- mary decision witliout the interference of judge and jury, andl then say wlether they ought to be left irresponsible to tie house. If the btisinessoftheconmmitteeon courtsofjusticewere reduced by thequan. tity ofcases which eamn before them frorr the Sessions Coirts,ralf of the grievarnces coiplainedof would be dlone away. He complained of thie cortinualirecreass of acts wlicir enlarged tre sunmmrary powers of magistrates to fine and imprison. The opprcs.sion of tie law iii that respectwasofextrernaseverity. It placc magistrates in the most nainful situations. It was only yesterday that lie was compelled to ,nea mart 51. unider the act against obstrutionrs on the pavement in the streets of l,odon. The defeirdantliad scii a mn ri miourning entering the archrway at Doctors'-corrmonts, ant Iiis offence was,that he had asked the stranger if lie wanted at proctor, which, according to the act, ws san obstruction of tie way. Hail this mitigated fine tiot been paid the punishment would have been three mnornths' irr- prisonmentwi'th hard labour. Ile wisredi to have the returns to every county in England. Mtr. LI. UMINER said, that if threrc were a specific case of griev. saic laht ag4aist any niagistrate, it ought to bc sent to the proper au- thority which the lawv lmad placeui inr c.ntrol over thie magistrates- the Court of Kinr's Benchi. -Sir R. HERON was a friend to any inquiry ilito ihis coinidrct as a. magistrate. Upon the subject of the trcspass act, it did astonish him that no notice had yet becn given in this session of a motion for the rcpeal of that muost despotic act, which gave niagis- trates the power of arbitrarily comirittirig amau fordoinig arty thiing, or nothing. The ATTORNEY.O1GNEIN AL suggested an altcration. The objectof thehloni. movermriglitbe obtainicd withoutaddiig the narries ofmagistrates. All theywanted in thefirst place weretic facts, which, being produced, it would be SoOR discovered whether there was anry foundation for the inference of thie ion. gentleman or not. Mlr. PEEL approved of the suggestiors of thic Attorney General. He thought the stipendiary magistrates were necessarily more open to inquiry than the county magistrates. Mr. DENISON had no objection to thie motion. Alderman THOMPSON opposed it. Mr. GItEy BENs.ET anid 01r. Alderman WOOD spoke in sup- port of the togtion. Mlr. PEEL begged the house to suspend their judgment on the conductor the We.stminster magistrates, who performed their dut* itt a most able and satisfactory tnanner, Mr. HUMiE- said, he had the names of four or fire magis"t4si against whom complaints had been made. He wished to have the returns, that he might compare the two statementz of facts. Themo- tion as amended was then agreed to. -WOOL TAX. Air. STUART WORI'LEY presented eight petitions from Yorkshire, signed by 12,50D individuals, against the repeal of the wool tax, and praying to be heard before the house. Air. F. PALMER presented a petition from the inhabitants of| Readng, against the vwindow-tax and beer duties. Akr. MONCK trusted that the window-tax would be repealed en- tirely, and that the motion on that subject to be brought forward bY the henourable member for Westmittster would be attended with success. He begged to call the attention of the Chancellor of tbe Exchequer to the state in which the retailers of beer at present swod, At Reading, whilst an individual was able to sell beer' at 4d. per pot, the publicans could not afTord to seU it for less than 5d. ; and why was it ? Because the price charged by the brewers to them would not admit of their seling at that price. Why, it might be asked, did not the publicans then brew their own beer? but that was impossible in their present relative state to the brewers,who were, in fact, their masters. The brewers at Reading had swallowed up the publicans, and they appeared desirous now to proceed a step far- ther, and annihilate the common brewers. At present, in Readin, the common brewers had discontinued the sale of beer by reta"l5 waiting the opinion of thc Court of King's Bench, but the common brewers of the country at large still continued sellink with the appro- bation or cosinivance of the nmagistrates. He therefore would put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he would not bring in some bill, either enacting or declaratorv,to ser the questitn at rest The petition was then read, and ordered to beprinted. Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from the inhabit- ants of Huntingdon against Siavery.-Ordcred to lie on the table. A message from the Lords requested a cony of the report of the committee of the House of Commons, whichhwas appointed in 1818, to inquire into the usury laws. A copy of the renort vws or- dered to be communicated to their l,ordahips. WINDOW TAX. 'VIr. HOBHOUSE presented a petition from the inhabitanthhouse- holders of St. Ann's, WYestminster, praying the repeal of the assess- ed taxes. This petition was, lie said, the sanme in substance as those which were presented by the great hody of petitioners in 1822; and had not a strongopilion prevailed thatthe Chancellorof the Exchequer in- tendedtoremitthlegreaterpart of the assessed taxes,particularly the window-tax, petitions wouild have been presented from every parish in Westminster ; and he begped to inforni the right hon. gentleman, that steps vwere now taking or convoking meetings in all the parishes of Iaestn'instr to petition against the continuance of that tax and to consider the whole of the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The petition which he now presented was from nien of all political opiniions ; and wlhen ie stated that the first paragraph of it spoke of tle " firm and wise conduct of your| ono ouse," no gentleman could conceive that It iews got up by these styled reforsuors. This petition, within five hours, hatd 800 signatures, consistinc of the churchwardens, the select ves- trymen, the collectors of Kin1o's taxes, anml, in short, ot all those persons who seldom take a part on such occasions. The petition was then read, and ordcred to lie on the table. " To the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned inhabitants of the city and liberty of Westminster, Showeth, That yoiur petitioners have seen a statement, which they have been informed and believe was laid before your honoura- ble lIouse on the 12th day of February, 1824. as follows, viz.- " Total netincome and expenditure of tlie United Kingdom of GreatBritain and Ireland,in the yenrending the SthJanuary.1824. " Income paid into the Exchequer ?57,072,999 8 44 Expenditure . .50,962,014 17 Ili Leavinga surplus paid into the Fxche- l I quer ov-er and above expenditure of J6710,984 10 54 "Vhence it appears t'at the people have been taixed to the amount of nearly 7,000,0001. sterling inore than was necessary to meet the current, and as they are convincc-d wasteful, expenditure of the year 18-23. "Your petitioners have also hieard anct believe that 5,000,0001. of the surplus thus raised by taxes and iiliposts upon the people, is intended to bc paid in discharge of the public debt, to which your petitioners beg leave to object, believing as they do, that if the mo- ney were left in the pockets.of itle people, instead of being taken out by the tax-gatherers, it would be imore usefullv and productivelv employed than in payine off dc-bt. That paying off debt contracted in large masses, by driblets, is merely making a sliow to no benedi- cial purpose, while the people are conipelled to pay the same amount of taxes, whether snmall portions of the debt be paid or not. " That although 5,000,0001. is a sinall sum in comparison with the debt, it is nevertheless a large sum for the people to pay in annual atid unnecessary taxation. "Your petitioners have sceni statements wliicli induce them to be- lieve that theLexpense of governing Ireland coa:s about fobur millions sterling mnore thati the whole reveriue of Ireland produces, and con- sequently that the pmople of Great Britain are taxed in that stmi on account of Ireland. " l-our petitioners beg to call the attention of your honourable house to this subject, since they cannot understand why Ireland should not raise a revenue cqutal to the expense it occasions. "Your petitioners complain, " 1. That taxes are extorted froti the people of Grcat Blritain, not for the good eovernment of Ireland, since that country appears to them to be worse governed than atty other country on the face of the earth. " 2. That these taxes arc not applied to benefit the people of that niost unfortunate country, since they are ill used anti wretched be- yond the power oft description.- 3. That the sum extorted, by means of taxation, from the people of Great BritaRn, on accourt of Irelandi, neither proluces good governiiient, nor benefits its wretched people, but is wastefullv expended in places, pensions, patTonage, and jobs. " 4. 'Iliat your petitioners feel it to be a great, a singular, and unparalleled grievance, that, in addition to their other heavy bur- dens, tour millions sterling shlould be extorted from the industTious and sober people of Great Britain, for tile advanitage of an idle and dissolute Irish gen.trv. '-jlour petitioners therefore pray. that your honourable house wvill take the allega.?tions contained in; this petitioni into your *nost se- rious consideration, and will be llcaset to retit taxes equal in alnotiutto ite1csurplosof revcnuetabove expenditure; and firther, that your honourable house will, also be lileased to renmit taxes frorn those levicd on the people of Great Britain, equlal in amount to the sui paid by Great Britaiii Ott account of Ireland, overand above the aitiotint of reveiinue raised in Ircland." Altr. EfOBHOUSE said lie had also another petition on thc samne subjcct tront the ithabitants of St. Milary, l,anileth. The petition Was real. atid orderced to lie on the table. illr. 111UHOUSE then rose to mtake the mtotion of which he had giveni notice. lie said he wvas quite setisible that on the present occa- sioit he should have need of the whole of that indulgetice which the house bad had the kiidncss to show bhim on various occa- sions. These were not ntere word, of course. Gentlemen lutist be aware that lie uttered only wh:t he really felt wliell he ventured to bring forward a subject of such vital importante as the taxation of the country, and when he should be led to speak of the plans of the Chancellor of the Exchequcr, whose sound andi enlightened prin. ciples, if followed up in practice, would secure to him tisat fame w hic l it auvtirl t be the first obiect of every statesman to deserve. lie, (Mr. Hobhouse.) wlhilst hc gaee to thc right hon. gentlenian tbe praise of correct Drinciples, lutist at the saine time observe, that he had not satisfied the just expectations of the country witlh respect to the reduction of taxatioli. It wouldl be ill the recollection of the right honotirable genitlemtan, tihat for sonte tibc p;ast tilc country had been letl to expect a considerable reduction of its burdens ; more particuiarly as the right lihon. gent.!iad departeii fromu that absurd no. tion, that ihe trite riches of th;- country was to be judged of hy t':e wealth of the trcasury, antl not by the vreadti of the people. As the temple of Janus was now, as it appeared, shut for ever, and as r e were not to have the honour of keeping on foot our forces fior the preservation of the liberties of Eturopa, and issaintaining our own high character in tthe world, in (oud's niaine whiv were the people of England to be calledl upon to submit to a burdin of taxation wbich the trants of the cotintry diii not require ? Front thie speech of his Ilajesty, he found that every interest was in a state of prosperity; he found a great imltprovement in aglicuiture, the revenue increasing. and trade anti commesre flourishing. If that were the case, was tils the precise time ti be chosen to continue that systetim of taxtition which was thought to be only necessary at a tirne of pectliar pres- sulre ? He slight say, in passinga, that of this boasted imrprovelilent ot agriculture ltc was not quite erie ii that it c would not turn o0ut to be a proof of tldepressioti of sonic other classes of the comn unity. lie wvas led to this by obseivingitlat thnosegentletien who seenied ailwavs so particularly anxious for ite prosperity ofagriculture rmeant onl; a rise of prices; and when they complainledl of the dlistressedl state ofagri. cultuie.all thley meant was that the prices of corn were low. As they did not complain now, hemustsuppose thattluepriceofcorn was biht or that it was expected to rise *ut he waw prepared to contend that a rise of prices was very far from affordine proof of ati improvement in the country, but rther it was a proof of depression, instead of prosperity. tbr it was impssible to go en payilti high prices. He was imot going at length niv into the questioti. It was admitted on all hands, lthat high prices were ti advantage to the cointry; it had been proved, indeed, by sose of the gentlemien opposite, as well as by ,is late laiitented frienid Air. Ricardo. But though ftrom highi prices it had beeni proved we could expect nothing, from fluctuating prices we could expect as little * though so long as our cons bill existed we should always have them, anid at one tinoe the corn-growrr wvould be receiving too mucit, anio at another the coin- suierwouhl be paying too little, and tius petitions would continue to be presented froitt onie class of the coutuiy, praying for relief at.the expense of another class. He (MAlr. Heoblouse) believeil that some change would take place in ite language of htonourable mem- bers as to time prospeiriy of agriculture, as soon as the average price of wheat should come to 7Qs. He was much mista,ken if even ite lon. mttembner for Somersetshire wouild not then hold a different lan3- guage. O t the first day of thession, the prosperity (allowingtiat we were prosperous) was attributed to some superior beings, by which he supposed it was meatit that this prosperity could not be accounted for by natural causes. In colsideriiig the prosperity of I the cotintry, it was but fair that those who had produced it should ' coiutiin for their share of applause; but the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer had introducedl two topics not quite bearing on tb e ques- tion-he w ent a little out of his w ay to detend the calumniated cha- racters of the Entperor Francis and the House of Commons. Writh res Oct to the Emperor Fraicis, he certainly hail somitething to do Vitt the prosperity of the country, for he had transmitted 1,500,0001. in full payment of a debt amounting to 21,500,0001. Viti respect to the House of Coinm ons, he could not hope that in tis instance they wvouhl S t attentive to their own applause, " )ceause lie could not give them that applause. He did not say this House of Commons, but a House of Cotnuotis of which the Chan. ~ellor of the Eixchequer w as a m em ber, had imposed on the country uvery part of that svstemn which it was the great m erit of the right toli. goent. to have abrogatetl. He (AIr. Hobhtouise) therefore rather hought the rig htt ltoett. sent out ofit way to say that the peopie were bound to the iouse of Coninoits for having got the counstry nit of its difficulties. The ismerit, after all, was verv trifling; for vhat was it, after the people of England hliad suffered wvith unparal. eled patience aiit endurance a syateni of taxation, treneling not on heir luxuries, not oit their comforts onlv, but ont their existence, for nany had died under its intolerable pressure: and at last, wlhen the ~hiancellor of the Exchquer came forward to say, we will not eot- inue the pressure alter itine years of peace the samteas after nine ears of war, the Parliament were to be tianked for the boon. The ight honourable gentleman lad c^rtainly, in his speh on pening the budget latst year, given a rational accouit of the auses of our prosperity to the increasing consumnption of the epie from an increase in their -comfSorts, and lie now atttibuted ba.t to the wisdoru of Parliamet; but h e (Mr. Hobbouse) cedid . wet concur in tai opinion, and lie dared the right hontiurabik gentlerman to the proof;. a nd if he could trac aqy one.10d principle'to Elie Parliament, he (Mfr. Hobho%We:coiiI trace -Jw, to the Yeo?le. But' this opinioni arose. fromn tlhg systeaot~ vernmny ~b hidbifd their hgissd in' the. pockets 40f the ple -for so many d{ears, that they had altogrethe~r J i t tt l6ation thk*t the ti e to, the property was in the. peojila. pralae hail been bestowed by the right honourmble getldeman rea ~site, erpn the benignity of' Parliamnt,and the bleasinge t5 rddfue y a reductioat of taxation. Nobody ever -do;Ab ty power of Parliamnent to reduce the taxes which it hadipod was riot the reformers who had ever denied their capaci~ taxes. No, it was the Mlarquis of LnodryadM.Vn tart,who, when called on to reduce thepbibudn,ythge4 ral voice of the country, wcid that eve teagiuurlose. they could not fbrego, or else the woemcieo d ' must be stopped. The new Chancelloro'teEceurh~~ ever, departed fromi his predecessors in many parts of i ot but he had not gone far enough-he must reduce atlf for the country required further relif fimtaxation. He iu that thepresent improved state of the coutntry was attributableo foresight or fostering care of' Parliament: no, it was4 owing t h native healthandvigour of the nation, that the recovery (if there we, any) took, place ; it was most shameless presunaption to give thetr, dit to ~any other source than that of the recuperative ener 'es of tIle people. (Hear, hear.) To 6ay that z Parliament (not this) did it was as preposterous as; to say that those who infected th.ent with contagion ought to be praised for its erae h epeo Eng,land knew better their own value thetoomlan wythi understandings in such a manner. TheCacloofte xh. quer, they would remembr ndeeoig i.bdgt erriail on his financial accounst h er.l2;s ht itwa as clear as day, if tehueddntak te r"entt opportunity, they would have no ote hneo edtiam, for five years, but they might haveachneo genj0 in the event of any symptoms~ of fordinwr ews or bt when the rlgbt honourable 'gentlemar a lerdfrth er, his commnercial policy, he had not alao fl itemr ogaa for those matters which more immediatelycneedheb oth people. He h- d, in his finacalsecoftetersit,a i a very beautiful and poetica agaeo lepopru hneu the condition of the countr;hslnug was smooth,eeat. and flowing; he talked oftecdshaha tied the cmeca energies of the country toth earth, but he had fogtten to add that those cords ba been twisted in tht hose. He had aljso talked of the gle dlo prejuie be. fore whichi they hadl so long bowed bthomtted to explain, that no where did that idol find suc rhipreswtn the walls of Parliamnent. Where were its altr so prtce, n o ears so richly enidowed ? What was saido othe idl ol, ebleed, be saMt of that whiich the Chancelo o teEchqe had just prostrated- "Of whatever descent the godhead he, " A stock, a atone, or other homely pedigree, "In his defence his servants are as bold "As if he hatd bean formed of beaten gld. He believed that the light of new information had appeareia among the peopile out of doors before it found its wtay into Par ent whbere, indeed, error, accordiing to thie view of the people, ha.~ its last recess. TheChancellor of the Exchequer had eitirn ted a surplus of 4,135,000 andl odd pounds at the endl of his five years' compuxtation; but the Austrian loan, which became available in a simall repayment, wvas to be diverted front any channel of relief for the people. Tetxs, also whichi the G-overnment had con-Rente to,1 redluce, were not ronsiderea~ as the most pressing by the people at large: for instance, they had heard this nighit, that petitions were- AumnerouSly preparing in Yorkshire against the repeal of the wvool_ tax. Thy ha(l notice from the honourable member for Coven.. tr,. thath would have a quantity of petitions to present against = the reduction of the silk-duty. The higher classes would be benefitted by the latter reduction, while the lower, who really wanted relief, would receive none whatever. Hle entirely coneurreit in the principle of the improved commercial olcy from whichi these reduictions emanated ; but still h otn'dta there wene other anid better reductions, more suite toteata ats and ex-4' pectations of the -ouintry. (Hlear.) H utrpa i dislike to the announced application of so largeaprofteAsia repay.. ment, for what the minister might caaltl,arebe, sand pleasing schieme of architectural improe ntItlkeasite right lion, gentlemian tlhought that the peoule were torc oh offered this portion of their money which they had len..ththe were too religious, too monarchical, too icrtefuil to church adsae to forego this opportutnity of builffing new churches, and earn ancient palaces-that they wished anv thing to be donritth csh which had been called a Gad-send, rather than that it a iould be forced back into their own pockets. Thtis was well enough imagined of a people whio hadl paid, according to a calculation which baffled credibility andI bewildered the imnagination, during the last 30 years, in taxes and loaits, the enormous calculated sumi of two millions of billions. (Hear, hear.) Ile entirely agreed that if churches were wanted for thee people, they ought to he erected for dtiem ; but he doubted much whether this was a favourable momtent for calling on the people to contribute for such a purpose. He feared that the church was in had odlour at this Moment, and dint such an appropriation of nioney thr its uses as had been men- tioned, while the assessed taxes were still imposed upon thle people, wrould be considered as nothiing less than a Proflig-ate grant, and one which oughit to be opposen in a manner Poinited oult by an honour. able friend GM r. J. Smith) on a formler evening. W"hile on the subject of these new churclhes, he could say, that since tbat in Sha. rylebone lhad been buiilt, the pews. had been Taised on the possessors to twO) or thiree timnes thieir er.ount in the old churelt. MNr. Pitt had said, when the questionof the Auistrian loanbhad been first dliscussed, that the debt was so finrmlv secured, that the Empe. ror might be sued for it in hiis own court-, and that there were ac- tual ortgage bonds for moire than f'our millions of the amount irk thFenik. of England. Such was the factevwhen liord Grenville wrote to Lord Henle upon the subject, and when the; negotiations with Count StadiaTi were commiencedl. It was not until the year 1818, the dliscovery was inade, that this loasi was not to be con. sidered as in the nature of' a debt. At all events, the repay. mient oug,ht, lie thought, to go in the reduction of taxes. (Ilea'r, hear.) See what would lie the situation of the country in the yecar 1827; they wAoul(lil hve, according to the present scale, to raiso 55,745,000 and odd pounids, 'in taxes. They liad a sitiking fund, lie knew, but they were every day out. liv-ing the fallacy, of it, andl seeing that it wAould be mnuch' better the anouint was lef't to accaniuilate in the rockets of the people, thani in the hands of parliamentary commissioners. There was also the consideration, that the nmachiinerv of the a8ssessed taxes was expen. sive and oppressive; and he instancedl, as a proofof'the latter, the hleavy com'plaints miade last year, frOm One entd of the countrv to tie othier, of th sureharges, uintil the Treasury was at length obliged to interfere, acid save the people froni the tax-gatherer. (Hear.) Tbe taxes, becanme, in fact, from-i these surchar-ges, so difficult ofcoletio,e that tile commJljisGinerS Were daily confuasinag and contradicting each otlher; anid he quoted an extrac-t fromi a paTnphlet which had been puiblished bye ataagistrate in the countrv, to sholr the extent of mis. chiief whictih had been locally inflicted in the collection of the assess- ed taxes. In Scotland, thec people applied to the law authorities, who 'tuashrd, uiponi that application, ha.f of the commissiolsers' can. tiastes. By getting ridl of the assessedi taxes, the countr would also get ridI of the vexatious and expenisive establihet hc the ma. chiniery of thie collection (If these taxes uped nmnntances this duty had Elie effect of maigth cupnso hue py10per cent, uipon thecir rents; adi h iyo ah,eblec,hr was a wholestreet, tdie houseinwihwrletr32.praum where the inhabitants paid 341. to the assessetas.Tewnotx had been, lie knew, in itiany inistances, given as a commutation for other duties-as in the instance of' the'duties on tea and on clocks and wratches, in whichl the ditties talken offhlid afterwards been put on agin. The duty on tea had been taken off, but was afterwvards bgougt tip) from 12 to loll per cent, and vet the window-tax, pro- posed as a commutationi, was still paid, just as if nothing hind hap. timed. The liouse might perha Vs think the Government had ldone much in reducinig thne amount o1 this tax to one half of its former amount ,but they would, lie thoughit, be somewhat astonished, when hit intortiicd themr, that thie triple asrsamnent Made by Mlr. Pift,who said, unless that extraordinary measure was ado ted the country imust suiccumib to France, did niot amnount to rniuc g more than the winulow-tax of the present day, reduced as it was. There was ano- ther objectien be had to mnake to this tax, even in. its present state, whiich was, tl'at it was always inexpedictit to retain rny part of a tax, the wvhole of whiich miight be lloe awal with. It'was keeping tip the sc-affolding, and preparinig for any thing that might follow whiat did very often follow they well knew. Thec inquisitorial nature of this tax was another, and not the least grrievaneg which it occasioned. it sceiiseth. as he had gathered from all dhe petitions, presentedi to the house olt this siubject,that since the year 1W2,the vi- fiilaice of the stirchargers tiad been incressedlto a most odious dlegree. r'hey actually recceived a premiunm for the additions whiclh thry made to the prescnt rate, and wvere told.by the Government, the more TOU miake die people feel the grievance of' thits tax, the inolie we wrill Mkyofeetior gratitude. In Bathi, the smeill -lazed apertuiers to chamibers utnder ground had been cliarged, and hec was isttcucte(i by some of his own constituents to say, that notwithistandingr the reduction which hatd been made, they, paid more nowe than they had done befiore, owving to the ingenuitjtyof dibcese rchargeni,. wbis',1Ad found out that the bons&s mighit be asssed for more windows. The Chancellor of the Excliequer said that to miake the ad. vaittages of his reduction snore generally felt, the basement stories of houtes, used as shops, shiould 'not be chiarged ; hut hiis intentiotn in this respect had been frustrated, for the stir- chiargers, wbenever they could fintl a windowv at the back of stuch shp,or which was not aettially used for the purpose of dis- plynggods for sale, never failed to chiarge for it. He niight, t1-31ie thoghit., fairly ask for the- repeal of thte whole of the aguesced taxes, hut he k-new there was a great numuber of individuahs who h5. a respect for whlat thtey called die -linking fundl, (biittwbiehm he be- lievcd to beea fallacy), and seould hlot concur. its a project whi0&ihcy fencied might affect the public credit. fie shiould therefopre oi g for a reduiction of 1,295,ooil.- Not buit that he thoaight froiEtb right honourable gentlenlman!s own statement, with respect to tie' house-tax, thEit it also miighit be taken off. Titere lied alpswdv be6n an increase; there could be no doubt thlat the irnpuli bichu the reduction o1' this tax would give to building, woulk ~dd to this in- crmeas; and w-hen it was considered Thow a. lierge portion 'bf the sumlls spent in buildling wiis mid in taxes, baebLiclid noa doubt that tlse revenue would be: benefit ted bj' that measure. Ile vas quite willting that tne repeal proposed by the right hionourable geticleunatl of tlle *duties on rum, silk, and coals should be tried by way ot experiutent, out he could see no reason for that on wool. Erven thc lion. ineinbcr fIr Y'orkshire, who represented a great wool county, said that the people couhl wait for this: he (Air. Hobbouse) also saLid let them tvait, and l.t objects of miore general importance precede it. Against itle proposed reductiom of the dutv on-colds, his orly objectioin waS, that it was insufficient. So smafl was it, that the riglit hon. gentleman had no right to call it a relief of the public burdenis. Its total amount was 1O0,OOOL; and this saving seas not to come to the ptblic until after it lad passed through the hands of all the dealers, wholesale and retaiL But to return to the subject of the reduction which he had to propose.. The total re- peal ot' tue wildowtax would amount to 1,205,0001.; the duties pro- poused tube repealed by the right hon. gent., und towhich he((itr. IHob- house) had no objection, were 7l'2,0?0l.,nai1king a total of 1,917,0001. This hle thouht was a very modlerate demand frorm one who thought the whol.e of the assessed taxes might a'nd ought tobe repealed. Ac- cording to dhe statement of the Chancellor of the Excbequer. 700,0001. of that muonev received on account of the Austrian loan, were to be devoted to thc estimates of 1823, and the balance vas to be spread oyer the three ensuing years. But why, lie asked, was not tihe whole to be applied to the expenditure of the next year ? It was quite a new thing it thie country's finance that the budget should be made for three years. lVhy should not that which the right honourable gentleman called a Go&_send-the sum with whi4h the Emsperor of Austria had paid a dividend of 2s. 6d in the poutd upon his debt to this country-be applied at once to the reduction of the taxes? A part of this money was destined for the repairs said to be necessary at Wiidesor Castle. If his Majesty would tenbark in the repairs of this palace, to which no one..hadrsaiy abjection, why were not such palacis as those of Kew -anid Ricb-; teond,to which every body ol;ected, pulled down ? Butitappeared. cotiiitaittc ~~~hose djreeVtiogch tB Z ot>tte was to bre appoioited,undtr whs dr-taozlu es r4 X . pairs vema to b~e petformed. He knew that If a proposal hadl been Suede on his side of the house to prevent his Mlajesty from playing the he would not say what, it would at least have been thoueght bY the gentlemesson tie other side avery scurvy one. Butbhow long Would these repairs take? Would they be completed before the arrival of thatt period at which the country might be deprived of the SRerrices of his Ml *ty in governuingit? They ouId at least take five or six yearn We' really had no wis'h to treaOthis subject inde- co-zously, but he could not help miaking theae observations, because it had been whispered that the sole object in commencing the repairs 'wa-s, that such was his Mlajesty's wish ;and it was said moreover, altbhrugh he aid niot pretena to know anything of the secrets of the Cabinet, that if it had not been for the alterations of this palace, we Should have hid more chiurchles. As, however, with the reductions hIC had recommended, there would "till be a balance, he shoiuld hope that the mugestion. of his honourable ftienLd (the member for .Abingdon) weald be adapted, for tak-ing the duxty of? beer and puttng t uon alt Thse entemen who were in favoor of te snldg.fud hd, othig t aprehend from this mneasure becuseIt oul byno ean efbctthat scheme. He caKlv uponthe ounry gntlmen o spport the proiposal he had made beaus, a thy hd away ben ready to come forward whenther on itersts ereconernd, heywould surely 11ot refuse to do so when tose oftecmuiywere con- cerne.d, and when the whole countycle o redition of the taxes. He caled upon theministersalso to support him in behalf of the peopile whoin they had called grateful, and who he believed were so for any real benefits that were conferred uipon them ;and he was9 sutre if they- didi not support the reducetion te proposed, instead of tba't grttude which they promised themselves the would be as. sailed by a gener-al censure, not onlyr from hist sidte lof the houste, but frnm till those who suffered under ~the weight of the public burdens. lie begged pardon of the house for having occup ied their attention at such length, and concluded by movinIg the foil wing resolution.-_ " That it appears to this house that the reduction of ta-xes proposted by the right hon.theChancellat of theExcheque-ris notaiuch as to satis- fy the just expectations of the people ; thlat the window-tax is unjust in its operation, arad most oppressive u 0on the poor of this kingdom;in and that it appears to this house, that te Isaid tax ought to be whol. ly repealed from, the 5th day of next April." 'Mr. 111ABERLY rose for the purpose of submitting to the house some observationsi on this subject. Hie thought it was ex- tremsely important't because the proposal submitted to the house by the right horn. the Chanecelor of the Exchequer, was not for one yvear. but for four, and no farther reduction of th public burdens could be look-ed for by the people during that period. He was par. ticularl'r desirouts to goardl himself against any miisconstruction or a chargi of inconsistency, with resect to what had fallen from ?iin On a formner evening, and what he should have to sayoii the present occasion. When. the Tight honourable Rentleman ~ad submitted to the house his v iew of the state Of the public finasces, he (Mlr. lllaberlv) said, he thought that view was a fair one, sad that the nation's prosperity wasA rather under than over.Tated io. it. Wlith respect to the taxes which it was then proposed to repeal, he had stated his concurrence in the general principle. of reduction, but had reserved to himnself the right of pronouncing ,'aoo the details when thiey should come in discussion before the -osouse. Wilth respect to the repeal of bounties, he fulls' concurred .4~hthe right honeaurable gentleman; hut he felt himself at full li- berty to Lay also, that he thought the proposed reduction was by no means so la rge as the Public had a right to expect. He sliouldi, In the first instance, confine himself to the reduiction of the window. tax. The practice which had been adopted with respect to sur- charges, and the proceedings of the surv-eyors, to whomi the of fice of nmking them wras committed, was so odious, that he hail no doubt the pecople would willingly pay a muach larger tax, rather than sub. mit to the inconveniences with which it was attended. Besides re- moving these vexations, the repeal of thiis tax would have the e&Ict of bringing home many of the abgentees who lived abroad, chiefLy on account of this tax. There was anothier consideration, and one which would not, he trusted, be disregarded by the house. The comfort, and even the moral condition, of the lower classes of the people were considerably affected by this tax, wyhich consumnedl a l arge portion of their earnings, and compelled them and their children frequently to reside in small rooms, to the great in- jury of their health. This was, in his opinion, deserving very con. siderable attention. The chiief argument which could be used in support of this tax was, the necessity of upholding the public credlit; but it would be remembered that in the last session a miajority of tie house hail reduced the sum by which Mlinisters proposed to suppor-t that credit to one-haltf of thie amount which they the,tscht necessary. and whiich hiad yet been found sufficient. ook-inz othe lwhrle statemrent of revenue and expenditure which tLhe right 'nonourable gentleman liad lately subtufitted to Parliamnent the total surplus of' revenue, upon a calcutlation whiceh extended fruir the vear 1823 to 11127, wouild he, in 18,27, according to the right ho. nourable ge-ntlemnan's anticipation, somethiing upwards of 4,100,0001. And with this surplus, the right hon. gentleman really seemedi nol to know what he shiould do; or, tu use a common expressRion, it al. most burned in his pocket. (Hlear.) Now he (Mr. lllaberly) or general principles meant to contend, that Parliament had no right it t takecouit of the pockets of the lpeople (a laugh) a single shtilling mnore than was absolutely necessary to provide for the smricc of tin country. The governors hadl no right to take from the governed the smnallest sum brYond what was requisite to mantain tile honour ol the country;- and therefore the iroverncd lhad a fair right to comn- pla in when this sum wqas exceeded. Government, theii, lhad no more ricbt. after the services to which thie oilier taxes were tip. propriated had tecen satistied, to take one shilling front the people fot the support or'astnking ftind,tlian they hiad for any otherpurpose what- ever. tie should now' proced to state, that the first itemn of mudee. laneous chairge upon which he hadl to observe was that of' 500,0001. f.sr the building of churches. (Hear.) Now lie would a-sk uiporn what ground s-as any such charge to be provided for ? (Hear.) H'lae the house, since its former muniificent vote on thtis subject, receivet' a single petition praying for the es-ec:ion of a niew chiurchi ? 1( (Mr. Al~herls-) was generally in hiis place at the times wheii suci pettions warei usually presented, and he could safely declare thial hie h ad heard of none of this nature being brotight up. Hail thi right hon. gent. himsIrf assigned any ground for the charge ? No but even iflhe had, he should hiave concurred withi ani lion. baroniel ,who satt near him, in saving to the rifht hon. gent. " It the church wants money-lend it -," for if an ativaurce to the cliurch was neces. sarh.ch (Mr. MaberIv) had no objection to its being niadle at a ios. (hecar.) The next iteni concerneci the repiairs 01 Windsor Cstle--and no man was miore anxious thian himself that the Sovereign of this great country shouled be lodged in the mnost magnificent pralace imaginable; but lit thouzht that what hid been statedt by the samie hon. baronet whc had sken on a former night on this suh.Ject, was also very fair.-. namely,' th-at Gov-ermient euglit to look round uipon the present roy al palaces, and out of the sale of thosec which were uiseless or dis. miantled, to preside a splendid palace for the Kiing. This was an item, bowever,which hne ws,uld not deduct fromi the right lion. gent.'a statement, in considering its dletails. The rigrht hoti. gent, had estimated his sinking fuind at 5,1.34,4.581., anti aniticipated that the surplus incomie of' 1824 .wolild hr 1,052.07111. fi 8. . . - 372.,3461. 182f1;. 173161. The wole aount R27. 522,3461. The whole a ofno such surplus incomne, let time hoause observe, beiug taken fromi the people by a taxatioti, whiiclh, as regarded espte- cizlly the support Of a sinking fund, he (ASIr. M'taberiys) thioughit quite unnecessary. If the asse'setitaxes were token ofl, there wouldI be an iMMediate saving to the country of 300,0001. in the charge for their collection. ( tear, hear.) As the right honourable gen. de-rsian was now atleast proc,eeding upon asystrni-a course never yet pursued by any Minister who had occupied the seat niow filled by the rigcht honourable gentlemian-he hoped that right lionourable gentleman would apply the samne principle to tlhe whole of its de- tails: and not act upon it with re ard to one part, and depart fri-oi it, or forget it, with respect to anothaer. Blitt if Principle and system were meant to he carried to their proper extent, fairther s iviogs might be cffectedl by Governmneat. Thius the charge for the co"llec. tion of the malt du'ties was 144,0O0i.-that for the collection oF Slit beer duties alonec was 2118,0001. Trlen why coiitinue tlit collection of the duty ion beer? it was quite unnecessary. If' thse dutv at present pay-able upon becer and in;lt were collected upon rnalt'onlj-, it was clecar that there wotild exi'st no nccessity for thte additional sur. vey that was now requisite. Thec samei suirvey thlat was niiade upon the bushel of malt, would answer the purposceto' asertaining the prescen amiount of boti duties. tie thiought thtat if they took u-way all1 restrictions upon brewing, the consumtption of utaD woul'd considerably increase but, however that m1ighit be, the excise iad alIready got its pgroper complemlent of officers9 andl gaugers ; and all they would have to (lo, supposing the beet dupe en be lOs. and the malt ditty los., would be, to write for every bus'hel of malt II. dtytt. (Ilear.) ThItusthe same amiotunt olcreve. nue, whichi upon thte tL'O duties row amounted to about 6,000,0001l., ,would be collectedl, but with a saying of 280,0001. tipon the collec. tnon. (Hiair , The beer dluty itself, of, the other hand,was agriev. oux and oippressive duty. It was One thlat taxed the poor to exone. rate the rich. Tiwacnrryto everv principl of ju,stice or equitv. and lie di op,tatwe he shoulFd hcmave thle honour of bringing thisi subjc bfrthhose, they would remecdy an evil so palpable : for if the revenue were to renliain, even upon its present footdntr, it oulght no be raised, as wvell as collected, upon proltcr atid equitable principles. Taking the varXious itemls that hiad beeni sub- mitted to the housec altogether, lite (.r. illaherly) understood, thait the irconie of the coutitry would be such as4 wouldi give Alinis- ters for the four years in question, a power of ainnually, rediucing taxes; and the am;ount of this remluction miglhtbe between 6,000,0001. and 7,000,001. But to the proposition of turther redluctioni, the re'- sistr,Ce mlade by G overntnent seented to be founded upon this deter. nisinaron On their Part-` WVe will have a sinking fund." ( Hear.) Surely, however, his Msjcsty's Mlinisters, before they caiine dov,r to Parliament andi asked for a sinking fund for four years, ought t inqui-es. and consider whether thecre was no titcasu're within, thleir rean-i.which ndiglit, with niore advantage to the people, Sustain pui4~ credit-nay, whichi might sa,tiate Lthose gentletulen whose anxiety for oyublic credit masle thiem, at prestijt, the warmes8t sup. poeters of a ;inking fundl. By tite mnea.1ure which lite wouldI propose, t.h~y aihr akeevry xchqur bll utof the market ; whereas, jn te eentof war fo intane, overnoient would have to ~'un thse &y xchque hils;andsuppose they were to be fbudedat7,5 th lss o te ounrywouild he about 7.1000,001. '1'is eauremus b th sae f steland-tax. (Hear.) The house wasawae, ha inthetie o Mr Ptt, the Government did. by- what was perhaps then an unjust act of Parliament,assign away from the income of the cotiniry 2,000,0001. of tbe land-tax for ever. lW;ith the motives orcattises of that act, lie (Mr. iAlaberly) had no- thing to do. HIe wanted it to be now put in force on fair and proper principles The preanible of the act recitcll that ttlc bill was passed to sustain public credit; and he now called iison Mlinisters toapply it for such a space of time as might be sufficient to attain all the vast benefits that he was sure ndight be derived from it. If the right bonourable gentleman w6ould only make sonie slight alteration in the act; if he would put a fair and proper price uip)oni the redenmiption of the tax, it would be sold to the auimount ot about 40,000,0001. (H.ear, har.) There couli be no doubt that it weuld be sold to ihat anount; and if by such a neasurc Government were enabledl to takc 40,000,OOL of astocli out of the market, could ally one doubt how immensely such an operation must raise public credit ? al ust it not do so up,n that very principle which had of late becn so gtrenuouisly comtended for within those walls-that the supply and the demand always bear in the market a relative ant exact proportion to cach otber? It was clear, therefore, that public credit would rise in the sante ratio that the aggregate amount of (0overitierit stock de,reased. The measure lie spoke of would give to the right Isoriourable gentleman the uncontrolled power of selling the land-tax to this enormous extent, and to a still greatcr extent, if therm were added to it, as a fair inducement tA) the purchaser, all thoee rights and privileges which would increase, of necesit-, t)e value of the purc has-namely, the rigbts acconipanying lanu itself and its possession; such as those of rcturning mcmbers to Parlia. -]nes, killing game, eligibility to the olagistracy. The tax so re. Aeeied, woould increase in value in proportion as there might be gsdded to tt the benefit of those additional privileges to the holder ncfih would attach to the larnd. ft did appcar to him (AIr. Maberly) tha i Sth sale of tVhe land-tax should be thus effected, public credit, tnd he p ut it ts the eight honourable gentleman himself whether is was, nuot eident) wo0uld be sulicist.ly sustained wvithout any inkeing-fSind. (HIear.) There could naot be the objection to this i sian, that there would be too great a hazard to the revenue. But, if! .his objection was felt, let miniasterilie would stay, carry the sale of this ax before they proceeded to ay reduction of the other-. If this sale :ould be. cflected ,let the taxes be reduced subsequently, wheni the re. tuit of the sale should be known. He could assure the right hon. 4eistleman that if he would eive to this subject that carefuil atten- tion which he was so capable of bestowingi, the riht honourable gentleman, would find that he would spedlybeabl to coome clown to the house and reduce taxes. If the right honourable gentleman, measiwbile would only pledge himself to consider the maatter with that care wbsich it demanded, he (Mlr. MVaberly) would not press hiim to make such reduction until atter the measure of selling this tax should have been effected. He could not think that he was pressing the right honourable gentleman unfairly; but if the right honourable gentleman thought so, at least let tthe proposition go to acommittee. Surely, however, he had no righit to leav-e the po gosal altogether untried, and the act altogether inoperative, whil thie people were taxed to the amount ot' 5,000,0001. a year .tQ support the sinking fund. He (Mlr. Maberly) (lid think that his proposition, in its resultg,would cause the people to enjoy a much greater share of happiness,, and public credit to be much better sustained, than any other plan that had Z'et been submitted to Par- liament. it would also malee his 'Majesty s ministers, he would hiere observe,more popular. At the sanme timae, he idr.iitted that the to. duction of taxes already made had. been an honest one, as far as it wxent, for it had proceededI upon principle. The Government might have gone gone farthr hoevr an ave reduiced more of-the assessed taxes. Still, as they had acted upon principle, he (Mr. Mlaberly) should feel boundi to eive them his warmest suapport in the severaladetails of their plan. (Hear, hear.) Convinced lie was that the measure he had to-night suggestei would increase their popula- rity hi the beat setise of the word5, by addling to the happiness5 of the people at large, and carrying publiecreditto its highestpitchi. (Hear.) Tlhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEOUER could not but re- gret to find that he was to-night placed in raNler apeculiar situation; for it had become his duty not only to tlefend the propositions which he had oni a former night submitted to the house, but also to assign the groundl s uon which he could not acquiesce in either of the two plans that had been that evening brouight forward by the lion, mom. hers for Westminster and Abingdon. He trusted, however, that what he shiouldi have tc observe upon this occasi on would jus-tify the garouind hie had taken on a foze ner 'evening, and satisfy thie house that no reasons had been shown why- he should accedle to the suggestions ot' those honolurable gentlemien. The question now wav, not whether taxes sliould incresse, or whether existing taxes should be~ maintained, but whether onie of tivo particuilar modes of proceeding should be adopted, by way of giving relief to the' people-it being admitted upon all hands, that a certain amount of taxes could be repealed. (Hear, bear.)t It was obvious that this sitatement narrowed the question between himself andI the two honourable Kentlemen opposite, yery considerably. But before he proceeded to answer the honourable member for Westmiinster, it might be convenient that he shouldl reply to the speech of the hon. member for Abiug,don (MIr. Maberly). Fromn thiat honourable gen. timan' speech hedi not very clearly collect whether he meant to support thelmotion of the honourable member for Wiestminster or not. The honourable gentleman (Mfr. AMaberly) had, however, ad- mnitted hi, belief, that the propositions which lie (the Chancellor of thec Exchequer, had submitted to the house, were just and right in thtemselves; and he was obliged to that. hon. pent. for ilie justice that he did him. But then the lion,. gent. wAsleet to suiperinduce upon those liroposiitions, an additional reduction of taxes, in the way and by thie means that he hail just statedi to the house ; suchi addi'- tional reduction, theTefore, beinig contingent and dlependlent upon the result of a certain plan-namDely, a plan for facilitating the opera- tion about the land-tax. He had said that if his Majesty's (In- vernmient would undlertak-e to look thoroughly into this subject (thie practicability of giving greater efficacy to the bill for the redemp-) tion of the land-tax), they wouldl flnd'his plan an efficient one; and that if it succeeded, they wvould be enabled to raise public credit, and relieve the people very considerably. Now, it appeared to him (the Chancellor of this Eichequelr) that upon this honourable gen- tlerman'si own plan, ho could not consistently support the motion. of the honourable member fbr Westminster ; becatise he could not foresee the operation of liis owvn plan, upon whichi the reduction of taxes was to be dependent. Nor would the house forget that this plain of reducing taxation by the sale of the land-tax was last year Isubmitted to the house in great detail by the lion. gent., whbo was' not fortunate enough then to meet with much support. The lion, gent., tlierefore, was building on a very slender foundation indeed, if lie tchouglhthie could now pecsuale thehousectobehieve, not merely in the tracticability,but also in the efficacy of h'splan.(tlear.)Foraught.thal eknew. the lion, member's plan m iight be a very goo(I one in itself, (Hear, hear.) It seemied intenided to iiifuse miore life inito the pro. visions of the statuite adverted to, and to give more activity to theou operation. Ile (the Chiancellor of the Exchecquer) was not .prepared to sayV thlat annile reasonable mecasure of this kind shiould not be re. sortedt to, or that, takecn by, itself, a plan might not be a very, propel one that was inteNded to give effic-acy, to that law about the land-tax But whiat lie hioped was, that the house would not be persuaded. rhat to give greater efficacr to it would necessarily lead to'thec canse. quences which the lion. gentleniani anticipated (hear) ; for thi citc'tumstanees undter whiceh the operation of the actiwas now going or (going oii at a very slow rate, certainly) were diamnetricallyoppositc to those nuider which it hiad begun. At that timei the price of stock,~ was low, and that of lard improving; anodle could easily undierstand fliatitthen aparty could raisemoney uipon his land withsoinuchi facilits that hewouild 'willirugly transfer stock in order toredeenii)iisland-tax.I The stteo thing . now differenit ; for although agr cuilture hae of late considlerablsywraccvevrei(, there was no such,I inducement te tenmpt parties to iiiake that exchange of property at present, wehicl' existed whten the law was framned, It was not very) clear to him. therefore, thatt any iiidiicement could now be easily held ouit to thi peope that would have the effect of giving an accelerated mnotior to the operation of the landl-tax act. Thie hon. gentlemnan haih esti. mnatedi, that by the operation of his own scheme, 30,000,0061. o~ '3,000,0001. of stock mnighit be withdrawn froni the market. But i. this cfifect should not take place, then the result anticipated by ilis lion. gentlemna' as to a large reduction Of' taXes teotilE be destroyed. He was therci'ore not prepared to av3eiic to the hon. gentlenian'st reasoning upon this mnatter ; And as little to the lion. meniiber foi Westminster's reasoninguplon the sanic suibject of redutcing taxes, te whih attr ewols nw adrss imel. Tehti.en. Mr. Hob. hou,e,)ltad prefacedI hi,s motionsvitliiagreatnumhcr ot'reiiiark~.s,someof which ,tid rnot appear to be very aplplicable. T('lit lion. niemnbee thoutght that when lie (thie Chiancellor of thieExchcquer) was express. ing aoinon (whiichl he inoet sincerely felt), that it muist be to Pariament a miost g-ratifyi-ng circumstasunce so look roulnd uipon t'he stt f h con ty and witness stheirniprovernent thiatlhad lately mia- nifiested itselfin th affairs of this nation, he had been guiilty Of a great omiission. The iumprovemnent in our condlition, to bc sure, waIs beyond thec m-ost sang~uine expectations of' gentlemeni, aiid lie mlu.st be allowed to say, be.yond thiose iii particular of the lion. geiitletuiaii hilmelf (lhcar, hoear) ; for though that lion. gentlenian frequientle di. lated on the msiieries Of the country, he hiad never been hecard t'o say that they inight look forwardI to the mionient whien the countrv shoutld be relievedi or at least lie liailm never anitici pated anyv suich re~lief, ex- cept through certain inucasuLres whichl lie seemicd 'to look to, witii ethier lionoiirable genitlemien, as the sovercign panaccen for all the evils whimi whichl tIme kingilom mixlit be afflictedl. (Hlear, lhear.) Bunt that hon. nieinhcer conceived, tltatbecause lie (thie Chancellor of the Exchiequier) hadl ventured to psi's just coisipliiiient to the con- dunic andl wisdom of Parliament, hehiad thecrefore Overlooked all the mierit duec to tile peotde for thle patience whichl they had shlown uinder suflering_the energy thiey had displayed in action-and time firm- nes an mail vitue seici fr aeshad chiaracterized the people of Eglan. (Ceers) Hehope, hwever, that he shouldi never be o ugraefu totht popl, o souiinitidful of'hetlicrifceus they' hadnuae, s ot o ofertothe evryackniowledgment, which lIe was redy' sall ties hubly totenilr thiem for thosie vast ex -D erton, seiliot hih te nasisedpower of Parliamert could never have attained its objects. (Cheers.) Ilie had freciter.dfy ex- pressed this sentimtent before ; andl in an especial Manna in thle vr sp'eech to whiichi the iion. gentlemnan liad alludc?, 'who) had that nlighit arguecd uipon the disappointment which It he speeh in questioii hail produtced thiroughouzt the country, saying thiat mnuch niore was expected that it was so framed aas to holil ouit to the plublic nothling be(tter than the melancholy andI gloomly proispect of the Grvernotent not beiitg aiblr to calculate upoii shy rediuction of taxes in the. next. four years. lie was hirrisetfaware that the pro. positions iubmnitted by himi on a foiiner night mnighat not plrove what was generatlly termcni popular; but he couild never dcciii it to) he conlsistent iwith the duity of a iminister holding tile situatioii wshici lhe tilled, to overlook those great principles by whlich outr commerce soil our finances were t~, he governed, nierely fi.r the sake of obtaining a popularits', that wouild confer upon hiim' no solid creihit, and to the conr weul(i prodtuce no lasting gooui. (Heair.) He was also en. ithed t1"Io assumlie, front the very fact of the utnpopuilarity of those pro- Positions.la fact, indeed, of which he f'elt by no means assuredl) Ithlat his MIajesty's miinisters could hlave hail tino other object in the COuIrse they hadl taken, hutt that of carrying into practice, accordling to ttie best inf'orniation tu be deriredi froiii researchi and experietice, sonund and enlightened principlescof governimentand cormmu'ce,whicli every nuan whio had reflecteiror observed upon the suibject, oni the nec Side of thle houise or oni tite other, in that hOuse or out of it, in England or iii any otlict couintry, hia4 adimittedl to be niost essential to the interests and the welfare of nations. Thie hon. iiismber for IVestmninster, having dione justice to his mnotives, had arguiesi that hlis Propositions were nlot calculatedI to gratify- the Just wants of itic. people. If this had been the first insoneiit, lie (thie Citaim- cellor of' the Excheqiuer) sliould not halve been srred if it had been thlought tlhat in thieir uicehenio of relief, =ioveinmltn were beginning at the wrong end. Bitt thle lion, gent. niust have forgotten what hiad been already done about the assessed taxes-thiat within the last thiree Years, Parliattient hatd repealed 3,000,0001., in. eluding thie whiole of tle assesseil taxesof Jrehandl. (Heary.) It hindu hiave been forgotteni, also, that in respect of othier branches of the re- vneaii from taxes that bore roiost oppressively on the poor- ofesa and0eatler0tx01 for exam ple- Parliarnen t hiail repealed upwards of30000.(Hear, hecar.) The hon. gentleman seciiued likewise to forger, that iluritig, the last three years Parliamient hail scfid,in considcer;t'o of flie distresses of the country, 800,0001. dteonthc dlistillation, of spirit.s in Ireland. (Mecar.) Ev'erv [citing could not be done at once ; or if it were, every thing woul(ii soon be thrown into confusioti. If, in respect to the salt andl malt duties. Parifamentithad shown a disposition-(and whether that dis- Foxi!onwas osmt:ary or forced upo 0:en it was not iiecesssry to inquire in this discussion).a disposition to relieve the most pressing watits of Eie people, it was too much that they should bc charged with an intlifference to thetis or to their wishes. If, at somle foture moment, Govertment should come down to the house, and wishing to cffect a still thrther reductioti or taxation, simuld say to Parliament, " Aid us to accomoplish this measure," it would be found that a firm atid steady aehlterence to the same principles that had hitherto guided their conduct, would enablc Parliament-andl he would venture to say at tino distant period (hear, hear)-to effect such farther reduc- tion in the taxes now paidi by the people. (Cheets.). It was because he thought that by adopting the course whtich they were about to pursue, Parliament had aseended the first of the steps that would lead to the ilesired result ; he new express- ed his earlist hope that gentlemeni would not allow themselves to be rut away with by any proposition like that of the lion. member for IVestniinster, for the sake of beconiing ppular amnong their consti- tuents : he hoped'chey would take a wider range in their political contuct. He had noW to advert to that part of the lion. nienber's speech in which OJoverninent was said to have excludled from the public every chance of a further reduction of taxation. He (the Chancellor of the Exclieguar) had proceeded upon the view that he had taken, extending as it didi over a period of four years, because he did not wish that they shouild go too fast; for if they did, they would be drivcn back from their object: they would be doitig mnis. chief instead of good. He, therefore, had not calculated too far but had proceeded upon the inevitable consequences that he deduced fronI the improvement in thestatcof the country, aided as it was by the reduction which had taken place in taxes. lie adc.itted- and no mian did so more readily than himseIf-that to reduce taxes was to do a positive good; and by increasing the property of | the couttry, perhaps to prevent their f'uture imposition. But noone who exercised the foresight which a minister ought to possess, could calculate on the benefits to arise from sutch a reduction being so im- nieditly consequient On the' SO a the honburab!e geneilemalt seemed to Suppose. Now as to the lZeduction, of the taxes upon lasit y~ear it wasI hardly to lie de'abted that the effect Woul1d be to increase the revenue; but on mere vague conUeetures, he could assign no fixed definitte rierl~d at- which that increase would ta-k-e place ; and therefore' he. had explained on s for- mer night, that his view of the finaneis of the country at the end of four years was conditional on this4rnarmely, in cagse the reve- nues o the country did not increase, aid the expenditure should not be dimninished ; but he could not le understoodl as maying, that our revenue had not increased, or our ex)enditurehadnotidiminished. The hon. gentleman mistook the way it-which ke (the Chancellor of the Exchiequer) explained the surpluts 'he country- was likely to pos- asess. The hon. gentlemani thought he viu; wrong ina his viewr of that surplus, because he had takeni into cooddleration that portion ei the mnoney received from Auistria which wavs not appropriated. But if they aid not make the receipt of that 'money available for any pur- pose of expenditure, it was clear that itimust goto the surplus revc- flue, Hie had stated to the house thatnothina would be deducted from it,except the ?~nts for repairi.ng Windior Castle, building churches, andl purc asing certain pictsres; and he could not, of course, leave outof his co,nsideration theremainingl1,506,0001. which did form partofthesuirplusrevenue.Ifthij money had notbeen received from Austria, he wouxld, in the first in'tance have been obliged to c-all on the house for the three sumrs wWhic ba been subtracted from it . and, in the second place, the surpluawould have been -redu'ced by 1,500,0001. Therefore, he hadl a right to lay it before the house as part of the surplus revenue, lie wouldl take this opportunity of ad- verting to a subject which he certainly did feel to be of great im- portance. It was introduced in the coulrse of the Ilast discussioni on this question by the hon. memiber for Alidhurst (Mlr. J. Smith). He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) alluded to the duties and amount of law proceedings. He never was insensible to the evils arising frointthose duties. (Hear.) fledid notmiean tosay that whenhe formeI his financial sitatement, he was so strongly impressedI With the evils which do, zimd must result from the operation of duties of this na. ture, as he afterwards was. It was a fatult, he admitted that there- eal of thlose duties did not enter into the plan which he bad laid be- fore the hiouse. He wvas now, bowever, so deeply imnpressged With the infinite evils-( that word he thought was not too strong)-(hear, hcar) which arose from those duties, that he had endeaveured, bye all the means in his power, to find a was by which they might b-e reduced. (flear, hear.) And it wvas with the greatest possible satis. faction he could now state to the house, that those duties might be reduced and that too, without in the slightest degree infringing on the i1nasicial calculation which he had already laid before Parlia- ment. (Hear, hear.) Hekoew, thatby tbis statement, heexposed him- selt'to thie reproach of not having considered the subject sooner. (H1ear, hear, from both sides of the house.) He was extrmely hap, py to find that this was. not the case, and he felt most grateful to the hos a thmuauner in which it had receivedl his intimation. ([lear, hear.) He repeated, that those Auties were productive of infinite evil. Ile knew they were veikould,_tbat they had been in force considerably, more than a century-hut that was no argument initheir favour. The only assertion ihebhadever heard made in their support was, that they had a tendency to prevent litigation. Perhaps it might be -so; but this lie knew, that whatever good tliey mighit produce, indirectly in that way, was ten thousand times less than the evilthev must create, if thiey had the effect offdlenying juistice to ithe people. .(Hear, hear.) Before he proceeded farther, he should state, that hIe was really much suirprised and gratified when, on examination, he found that the amount of those dulties, in Eng land, did not exceed 180,0001. lie had no means at present of CSl. culating their amount in Irelsad . but he task it at 200,0001., which he believed was a fair estimate. Consequently, all they had to meet was the difficultv of making up a deficit of 20,0001. Which wouild be lost by the repeal. He hadl cat about the possible way to find the necessary meansi,and he wouia now state where he could get them. There walre two modles in which it was practicable to effect a reduction of taxation. One was, by aipplying other resources; the second, by the -reduction of expenses. Now' don't let gentlemen sup- pose that when lie spoke of other resources, the meant to impose a tax. lHe would not make this a matter of compostion but the f'act was, that in the calculation he had formedI olf theresourcees of the country, he lhad omnitted to include a very imnportant source of revenue, and one whichi, thoughi of late years it lhad bean unproductive, was likely in future to supply a very large annual sum-lie m-eant the Crown. lands. Gentlemen were aware that the care of this property was, under the provisions of the civil list act, confided to certain com- missioners, and thiat the profits arising fromi it were applicable to thie public revenue, It was one branch of the royal property. whiclh, -since settlement of the ciyi list, was assigized over to the pub. lic, like an expired revenue of the Crown. This property had alwavs excited the vigilance and jealousy of Parliamient. Mlany objc6ts of great importance, suchi as the presrvation of the royal forests, ar,d the supply of timber for the royal navy, were connected withi it. From the tc mprevements, particularly in liondon, the pro. duct of Elie Crowvn lands hiad considerably inecrased ; but that in- crease was mnrc than absorbed by the e3cpense attending the forma. tion of the new 8treet, under the act of parliamient. All the sur. plus proouce had been devoted to that object. ; .500.0001. havini beein borrowed, at an interest of' 5 per cent., which had since beer redluced to 41 per cent. These expenses hiad, however, mcase; and the revenue would be available for public purposes. During the Iasi few vears only P001. or I,0001. hadi been paid into tlte Excbequer-. on ac'counit of the Crown lands. That sumnarose fromi certain alunr. mines in Cornwvall, whiicli were not included in the disposition ot the othier Crowvn lanids, under the civil list act. There would, how. ever, be payable,, fii thc couirse of the year 1825, a considerablesuini of esrpu IetiuC, WIicb, in thie succeeding 'ears 182ii, 1827, and so on1, Woulid be still farthier increased ; andl, in the latter of tht years hie had mientioned, he had iio douibt btit that there would be 100,0001. applicable to the service of the coiuntry. Thus, this new resource miet one half of the loss which the revenue wouldl sustair by repealing those law dluties. The othier half would be found isi tite saving unused by the regulationis now in progress (and which would be carried "Into effect as sooin as possible consistently withi a due regard to the efficiency of the public servie') with respect to the collection ,of, the public revenue. On thir sabject lie had sonic communication with his right honottrable fricnd who was at the lheadl at that comimission - aiid he was empowered to say, that from what they biau4 done, and fronii whiAt they advised and proposed to be done, he might saf,ely ealculati olatla leat an additionRl 100,0001. fromn that resource.VWhen he laid hiis financiail stntemient before the lhouise, lie calculated on an im- provemencrt of 50,0001. in the customis buthbe had not taken credl for any satving in other deparmMents. Now, hiowever, he could con. lideslyrecon pon100,0001. arising sott of the regulations to which he hil llued,whih, ith1000001. tronm the Crowti lands, woule mae p hedeict auedbyth repealcof those lawditties. He war ha,y that he could taetatp now; and though late, be trugtedI ii oud tint be the less cetbeo that account. ( Hear.) Hie would nol follow the lion, gent. thiroughi all the observations lie hail offered or the proposed gratit for new ehIuTChes. He tatd, however, made one admuission, and a very important one it tea'R. He %aid that be would be thie lat nan to object in a grant of thisl kind, iflit necessity couldble shown. Now lie couild assure the house, that he should 110I have detimanudei it, utileasshe feltperfe~ctly confidenttliai.he could poenot only thjat there was a neecessity .for it, but that the nmoney alreadyv granted itath been praperlvapplied, and that beneficial eff'ccti~ hadl re'sulted froni iL. But ,vliea' lie spolce the othier nighit at such extreisie length, lie did not think lie would have done that wlhichi would have been agreeable to the house, if he had gone into a detail. cti stateutient of all that 115ad becti done as to the buildinig af chtirches; and he therefore detailed to the hiouse generally, the prin. ciples on wisicli he Lhouglst the grant aught to be asked for. HE s ltoald on this occasion conitent himnself with sayingr, that it would tinot be in the least degree difficult for liins to shots to the house very cogenit grouricls fir titis grant. with respect to the dliminution ol taxes whlich i ie lion, gent, called for, he wiould not discuss the point on this occasion ; because, wh:itever miglit or niglgit not be thec cffedc of the votes to wlttch Site iton. gent. objected, the great qties. tion between hint aind thie hon. gent. tttrnedi on another poinit. The tiobut. Ccit. appeared to have fallen into a radical error an this subject- lagtr;b as i sutsdta overnmenteouldiatfordlnotonlI thc miillion whichl he proposed to take awav, but also700,0001. of that whichi he (thie Chiancellor of the Exchicqui&') intended to rensove.T'he lhon. gert. wisliedi to accotmplishs hii abject by the aisplication of the .508,0081. intended for clutirelics, and of tue 300,0001. intended for WVitudtor-castle. (Air. Hiobhoisr,azs we understood, said, " That sum su1keti 1rotti the Austrian loait, wouU. do for this Year.") Yes, it wouild rio very well for this year, but whylere 'wouild be next iyear? (Mear.) If ht took that sumn, anid said nothing about the prospect otf next year, then he did inot entertain so business-like a view of the subject as he oultit. Therefore, whien the manev demandted for building churefles was takcen iota thle lionouri. able gentleilan's view in discussing this subject, the ques. tion tanisi ultimately to thiis,-whethcr tie house would suiper- !add thie righttlion, gentlemnan's plan to a considerable proportion af ithiat plan wvhictih le (tIlCChancellor of thte Exchiequer) liad already laid beforec Parliantent. He did not object to the argumnents Wi wichi had been addiuced as to the weight of the asseissed taxes, IThey presse(i iteavily air the people--they pressedi with peculliar -severitv on some classes. Buit it should be recollected, that since the year 1821, arecdoction of those taxes, to thecamountof 2,500,0001. for England atid Irelani,l, adl been efiLected. I t.was not, thterefore, because lie denied thec pressure of those taxces that he could not aLree to tite propositIoni of the honourahle gentleman, but be- cntic e he wishied to begini at tlte right end, by adopting meiasures that wotild tultimately lead to the lionourable genitlemnani's own one view, or to ainiie 'other that would prove equally beneficial to the pple. fie had lilamed the Governnient for a ;tep whichi had been taken last year withi respect to the collection of the linuse and wvindow.tax; and lie referr,ed to a circular letter wichb liad been sent by the Treasur to the different tax-collectors, directing theni to re- survey certain h"ouses, and, where it. appeared necessary, to miake a surcharge as it was9 clear, if those suireharges were brought to bear, sotitethuing considerable would be gainedl. He was glad of this op. portsunity to give the house sante explanation of what thie Govern. usent intended by that letter-whiat reason guided hiim in sane. tioning the survey-and whly fie afterwards directed that none of tlie suiecharges whicli hail been mnade shol;ld be enforced. It appeared, as the subject had been brought under his viewi that in the country agreat inequality prevailedin the mode in which houses were assessed : somie, indeed, Were not assesed at all ; whilst manv houses, in the same relative situation as to site, convenience, anid valtie, withi others in the saime iieighbourhiqd, we-re assessed at different rates. It was not uniusuial to foil hTouses assessed at a, touch hIighier rate than other dwellings in the neighbourhlood wlhich paidl the same re ..Nn,tleese- co a- tax of this kin was equalty unid justice; and if an evasion was effected by one set of tiersons, those who paid the whale tdX were actually robbed of that portion of mstoney whicil they paid over and above the sum paid by their ticighbours. He therefore thouglit that Government ought at all events to examine whether this alleged inequality did exist; and if it did, it then became their duty to see that it was levie(d fairly and equally on all. He was led to believe that the in- equality prevailed to such an extent, that if it were removed, and all were obliged to pay alike, thie proiluce of the tax would be raised considerably above the average of the Iast year: butb'e never con- teniplated screwing this money at the existing ate, out of those who were subject to the tax. Ile thought if the frll tax were gathered front all those who were bound to pay it, and if, in consequence, the amount was greater than in the preceding year, that lie would be then bound, in justice, consistency, and fair dealing, to coime down to thee house, and reduce the rate in proportIon to the increased productiveness of the tax over the preceding year. (Hear, hear.) But his object was nilsunderstood: arid when he found that clamour and misrepresentation had gone abroad. he directed that those surcharges should not be enforced. He, however, felt it necessary to say, that this systeisl of equality would still be pursued, antI that the surcharges should be continued, because it was most unfair that one man should escape tbie operationi of a tax at the ex- pense of another. (Hear.) Bat if the result were a collection of ditty to a greater aimount than formerly, thiat would furnish a vcrv good reason for lessening the rate of the tax. (Hcar.) lie did n6t tbink it necessary to now re-argue the question of the sinking fund, which the honourable gentleman (air. 1aberly) thought suseless. The hoase had decided otherwise and it was not his duty to weary them with arguments he had usea before, arnd whblc were considered perfectly satisfactory by Parliansent. Assumning as lie did that the bouse was not disposeA to depart from thie principle which hadl been adopte on a former Occ5Ruton, Or to rescind the law of the last sesstion, (and .they could not concur in the right honouta. ble gentleman's proposition withtout repealing- that law), and think. ing his (the Chancellor of the Exchtequer's) plan was, under all the circumnstances, the best, he would leave the qusestion most confident- ly to the house. He would leave it in their hands, conscious that he could not be justlv reproached with indiffrerenice to the wants, the wishies, or the feilings of the people-conscious thiat his only desire was, to discharge his Aluty on sound, just, and rational prin- ciples. (Hear.) Ml-r. J. SMIITH expressed his gratituide to the ri ht honourable genlemn,forhavngattnde t th sggestion he had thrown out on aforer igh, an soghtthemeas of removing the duty on was nothr, hichhe wuldmenton, houh itwas ot efore the satisfy the people, After the miseries they had so patientl en- dured, they hadl an irresistible claim to every possible relaxaio of taxes, and he hoped the increasing prosperity, of the country would allow an efficient reduction to be granted to them. They mQust see, notwithstanding all that had been done, that a large portion of the people were still heavily oppressed by taxes. How, then, could gen- tlemen reconcile it to their minds, atfter what the couintrv had gone throuzh, to expend the sum of 800,0001. in any, othier way than that of relievingthepeople from taxation?( Hear.) Hewotild,as anililustration, stuppose that a gentlemian had mortgaged his estate for 3.4ths of its va- lue, and that h'e happened to received 10,0001. as a God-send, If he applied to a friend to know what hie ought to do with it, what would the latter say ? H-e wrould tell him to pay hiis debts, as the best thing he could do. But the applicant might say, " Oh! my credi-. tors are niot very pressing; besides, this sum wvill not pay hut a snmall pa't of my debts, solI will eveni iake myvself comfortable with iL"1 Whbat then would his frend say ? He w oulld ask, " Are v'our rents exorbitant ? i-Ia-re not your tenants the greatest difliculty to exist ? Lower your rents, then, and dlon't live extrava. gantly. The first dut is, to make those happy who live. under yon, and the next'is to pay your debts." The country was thius situated, and shie could onily upholdI her high charae~ter by adopting t'he principle whlich he recommended. He very well k new the hatted and hiorror t. which those persons were exposed wvho ob- jected to the building of churches. Hle, however, was onle of thoase unfortunate persons whlo, on principle, opposed that project; for lie saw no reason on earth to justify him, as a member o. t-hat house, in Chrvoting away 600.0001. for any, such puirpose. He could assure gen- t,mnth t places of worship devoted to the religiots of the ot f England would multiply as fast as dissenters' cha- [pels, if it were not for a principle of opposition which pre- ven ted their erection. He recollected a very, pretty churchi being built near the town of Nottinsham, which was not openetl on account of a disqrute respecting the. righit of presentation. After a great deal of dlifficualty, the Archbishop of YVork settledI the c-ontroversy. He recollected, another histance, wvhere 'a church having be'en built, the bishop of the discess refused his con- Sent, and it remainedi shot. If this system of bickering were done awar, churches would rise as fast as chapel., did nowi, anad there would be no necessity for appropriating one shilling of the puiblic moneY to Such a purpose. He knew th-e obloquiy wvhich attended those whio resisted sr'ch a grant, but he was old enough not to be deterred by clamour. He was ready to m-eet any argument on the subject and he would repeat that 500,0001. was not wanted for any, such object. Neither were Parliament justified in giving 300,0001. towards the repsairs of WiindIsor Castle, while the people were thus oppresstdl by taxation. (Hear.) Tire hon. gentleman conceluded by making someobservations on Mlr. Maberly's plIay for the redeniption of the land-tax, of whiclh, as we understood, he approved. It would strengtheni the public credlit, and, in the event of our being again engage-t in hostilities, would be found anx engitie of tire greatest limportance. Mir. GI PPS referredl to the report of thecomimissioners for build- ing churches, to show thlat the SUM of 500,0001. wVas wanted for the erection of places of worship. Tire commisioners had annexed to their report a list of applications fromi different quarter sessions for assistance to furthserthisobject,which assistance they hiad been under the necessity of rejectinig. AMr. WHEITMORE expressed Iris decided approbation of the financial statemnent which had been laid before the h-ouse by the right lion. gentleman : it did equal honour to ttise right hon). gentle- man and the country. He was sore that the country would feel grateful towardIs thae Chancellor of the Exchequer for the principles which he had Deopounded, when they should, at no distant period, he sensible of 'the beneficial effects whichl wouldi result from th,em. (Hear, hear.) If he felt aniy regret, it wvas because the right hon. gentleman had not carriedl the excellent prirciples which he advo- cated to the extent to wrhich they milght and ought to be catried. The hiouso wroultd perhaps anticipate th'at he al- ludled to the question which he last session hadl the honour of bringing under their notice.-namely, the tradle in corn. (Hear, hear.) rt was impossible that mninisters could take inito con- sideration a question inore dleeply affecting thte interests of the people thani the trade in corn. If gentlemen would examine into t1he present system, andl ascertain its evils, they- would be con- vincedl that it was quite ennsistent with justice and good policy that it should be abolished. (Hear, hear.) Wiith respect to the m-otion before thle house, lie must declare that lire didI not feel disposed to vote in its favour. Hie thought that the Chancellor of the Exche- quecr had gonewt faras he pt5ssiblv cauld go at piresent in the way of m-cduction of taxation. He couldl not proceed further consistently- with the policvy whichi ministers liadl pursiedl, anti in which he (3Mr. Whiitnmore) fuillv concurred, of niaintaining- a considerable Surplus of incomne over e'xpendlittrre. Mluch as tie regretted being placed ini a situiation in which it was necrgarav for himn to vote for the conteinsi- ance of a tax, he coiild riot avoid i-t on ttire present occasioni. Hiis sense of dutit compleilcl( him to vote III oppositioti to his feelings, but in accor:dancL to his judgment.t(Hear, hear.) He would not give an opinion with respect toth question whiceh had been touchied upon by the hiotiourable miember for Midhiurst (MIr. J. Smith), until th~e houise were in possession of more particular ilifornuation on the subject. (Hear.) L-ord ALTTHORP rose to declare the reasonis which would in. duce him- to vote for tie imotion which, harl been initroduced by thre honourable inemiber for Westminster. Ile would, however, fliet take the opportuinity of stating that lie agreed entirely with hisL righlt hoiiourable friendl with respect to the propriety of the resohti. tions whichi he had adopted With regard to silk and wool, but he dlifflered with htimi respecting the psroposedI alteration of tire tax oni coals; because, although the remission of the tax applied tri that Part of the country where the tax Irsst most heavily, yet it was where. the tax was niost eap=be of beinig paid: Ile lhan hecard with great pleasuire, that it was the Intention of the right orionorable gentlemian to abolish the tax on law pro- ceedinigs. I-le 'had rhirected sei-ne inquiries respecting the ope. rationi of that tax, and the result of thiose inquiiries had6 produced the conviction, iii lia niindt that rio tax coulti he inure oppressive or imPolitic. (Hlear, hecar.) Iiis righit hon. friendl had iiiade a kinid of apology to thiehouse for ha,vinigchangeil hisiusind. Until candouir should. i'n tIyta housee, be considered a crimie, anid obstinacy a VirtLue, no apology wvas necessary on such a grouind. (hlear, hica-.) Hle agreedi in all tie propositions whichi Ministers hiad miade for the reduction of taxati-i, but he thought that they shiold]( lave gone a great way fnirthecr. I the hloubtse hail done himn thec hionour to attend to Iris con(tlict, thev tiifttlsthave observed that lie hiad foir a loing timne Possessed deciuhedI upinionz on the subject of tile sinkingftindl. The More time experience of the last two ye-ars shouldl be appealedi to, thie niore the causes wvhich lhart producenf the reduction of the interest of thec money, and the present general prosperity of the counitry, the nioire impolitic would it appear to applv five niillionsrto threreslnrction ofthe debt. The nationial debt was in fact nothintg mnore nor less thani perniannict annuitie,4. It was tile saine thiiig whethier the an. nuities were redleemed or thie interest reducedl. The Chancellor of the Excheuiter proposqed this year to redLuCe the 4 per cents. to 3.4 per cent.-that is, to reduice the annuities. It was the same thing7 whiether nine millions were emnployed in biuying up the aninuities or in reduicing their interesti to the extent of 1-8tis. It appeared to himi that no re-Nor, whio hadl paid any, attention to the couirse of events (IUTini the last two years, could attributec the rcduc. tion whichi lad taken plate in the %nmount of tlre interest onl mooney to the application of5,000,000l. to titre redemptionI ofaniiuities, bittmainly, if notentirely,,to the increas,e of wealth amongst thepe. ple.(Hcear.Tl Te ariiomrit of theanuntitiesuipon which tiresinking fund wyas to operate, was 27,000,0001. a year, and tire tutmoast that coulul be redeemned in onec year wa-s 1,50,1030). Cauld any one suppose that Suchani operation as thist woutld orateriaull,- influence thle supply and demnandl in the niarkee ? If it tlila not, then the strongest argunrent whichl was uised for the nisintenance of the sinking fund fell to she grouind. On the other hand, could it he elotrbted that if the 5,000,0001i. nowv corisposing tire sinking fuinrl were left ini tire piocketst of sire people toube eniployed in pro. ductive indristry-, it syuoirlul produce ani accunmulation of cainital which worild tend to'redluce tire in terest of mnoney iti a, great dlegree ? (Hecar, lhear.) He theref3re cotsider,al it imlpolitic, to uiainrsmn the systemr of a sinkl,-ii fuindi; and on that ground lire wvoirld vote for the Teductroii of taxes;l and that which fornmed the snrbject of iris hron. friend's motion seas, in liii ouniniori, tire fitst that ought to be re- duced. (Hear.) Mtr. BA RINfIG observedI., that after all tlire burdgets which lion. members inight brinig in their pockets to be discussed in that tiouse, tire only question which it was necessary to considter wvas, whlether,irr thle present situration of tire coieStrv, a sinking firudl orrght to be re- tained ? Tire argumnent wiiich Iiris noble friend hiad jsrst advanced wasone of the miiost extrarordirrarv which he liact ever hecard iiiain- taimed in that lhouse. Tnre noble lordi asserted thiat the couon- try was at libierty to miake ari arbitrary reducetion ntf the interest of the nlebt ("1 No, rio," fromi Lrsrd Altborpr.) Hle was happY to findi that he hurl inisunrderstood his noble frienid. He wvould therefore abstain fromi making anY obs~ervatioll ott ithat Poinit, hut refear to a statemient wlichi he was perfectly sure had falleni froim- his noble friendl-nain0ey, that tire price of'- stock did not depend on whiat was calledl the smtall operation of tIre sinkin fund. On that point he totally dif-Fereel froin his; noble frientd. He IbelievedI tdat the price of stock Aidl depend entirely on that operation. If the couintry were to reniain at peae for ever, a Sinking fund mnigbt 'be dispensed withi without much inconveniienice. But tn a country like~ this, whose history exhibited a constant alter- nation of war and peace, it was inspossible to dispense withi a sinkhing funrl, becuse a m-an must be an idiot whio would, leirI hlis moiney to G'overnirneiit in tuieii of war, unl~ess. lie had the prospect of being repaid in time of peace. If there were nol a sinking fundl to be employed in making pmrchia;cs ii the market, men wouhil r.lae so little confidence in the financial system of Governmnment, lthat they would not touc h stock teen if it yielded 10 per cent. In all the countries of ErrLope there was abun- dance of capiial,but no ceestit, in consequence of a vvani of confidence in the nmeasurrcs of the governments Of those countries on financial subiects. He renmenibered tat riot many y ears ago the 6 per cents. in France werc at 50 or 0W, wiich yielded nearly 10 per cent., wsilst at the sanic time the direct rate of interest in Paris was only 2a per cent. Thus. wbilst a private individual could pro. cure money at 2.j per cent., the (jovexuxerent was comopellea to pay 10 percent. for it. Itwas a singsularcircumstasrce that eolland, the country where people exhibited more good sense on financial mat- ters than those of perhaps any other nation, should at the present moment he in precisely the sanie situation ii which France stood at tihe period to which he had alluded. The interest of imronev in tre Datch iiiarlet was under 3 per cent., whilst tire Government securities paid abourt 5 per cent. Such was always the case when the credit of a goverriient was good for nothitig. (Hear, hear.) Ile worild wish those gentleumren who proposed to abolish the sinking funid to carry their views ibrwardl for half a century, and to consider what would be the consequence of the country enga;ging in a war which could only be carried on by means of loans. In his opinion the funding system, whieh had been so much abused and ridiculed had been the means of saving the country during the last war. (dear, hear.) No doubt many abuses had taken place; but if those abuses were prevented froni oc- curring by a course of moderation, the system would be one of perfect wisdom. If English society were coniposed wholly of Quakers, a continuance of peace might be anticipated; and under such circumstances, the abolition of a rinking fund would not be a matter of great importance; but the lionourable member for West- minister, and the friends wvho supported him, did niot seeni to be at all averse to engage in, hostilities, and yet weredisposed to leave the country totall UnProvided with the Mealls of meeting such an event. NJo system, cohild be more wise than that which enabled a country to make an occasIonal hostile demtonstration, by the raisng of loans whic wee aferwrdsto be repaid in timne of peace. He k-new that to tlofterpeal of taxes was an extremnely popular topic. He repre. sented at populousi town,wherethe rightof voting was very extended-He didnotaffecttodespise miarket..plaeepopularity, and he had no doubt that lie could please his constituents, by saying that lie had voted for the repeal of such and such atax ; but he would prefer ;elling them, that he bad felt it his duity to oppose any reduction of taxa-. tion which wotuld have had the effect of endangering public credit, Without a sinking fund,there would be no security for public faith- without it the coutntry would obtain no respect from foreign nations; and if we were to attemnpt to go to war, our opponents would point to our emptv pock'ets, and lau.ghat us. It wasmuch better that the navy ard axirny should be in d-isorder than the exchequer. He agreed with tl'e Chatfcellor of the Exchequer with regard to the extent of the reductions which he proposed to make, but hi thouiht that they mnight have taken place uipon different articles. In the first place, he did not tliink that the repeal of the salt-tax was an impRrtant object. The Treasury derived more benefit from the salt-tax in pro ortion to its amnount, than from any other tax which was raised antiit wa3 a tax which, in its present reduced am;ount, aff'ected the lower classes lets than anv other. Salt was one of the first articles whichi had been subjected to taxation in all the countries of the world. He aFprehended, that after what had been sad on the subject a the silk duties, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not pesvr nhs Intention of regealing them. He was afraid that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not c=ry into effect his plan for reduci%the silk duties. He (M1r. Baring) Saw no good reason for taking t. em off'. No article couild be more proper for taxation. The manufacturer dlid not complain, nor did. the country complain, of its pressure. rt was, thtrelorel the fittest subject for yielding a revenue. Adding thI the suim ot 500,0001,, whih ws popoedi to be reDealed by toie right honourable gentle- 'Man's commercial regulatioiIs, to thle 400 0001. ot the -salt duties, whichi might be conitinued, we had 90D,bOl., which wotald nearly enable the Government to repeal the obnoxiouxs tax (the win- dow duty), wit:aout trenching on any other int-erest, or aft'eer. iug isational credit, That the repual of tenis tax wasi most desirable from the inijurious effect which it had on the healtht of the people, and the objections which existed to its collec- tion, he was perfectly willing to allowr. In reducing taxes he wvould prefer direct ones. An impost was not so sensibly felt whern levried in the price of an article in a shop, as wrhen taken dlirectly, from the pockets of the people. In the former cas, the odious tax- gatherer, wvho always made his appearance without being welcomae, and whom the greatest politeness could never render agreeable, was not seen entering our htouses or examinaing their exterior. Withi respect to the redemnption of 'ibe land'txr, he conceived it no reasorn fortrhereduction of taxes. Itmightbe sold for25 orSO years' purchase, and he (11r.,Baring) would suggest tha-t the produe %hould be aji plied to pay off' Exchequer bills and the! debt due to the Bank. By a steady adherence to the principles and psans stated hr the right hon. geistlenian (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and'by a conti.. nued support of public credit, lie thought it by no m-eans irnpossibILe that the country might obtain relief through a farther reductiais of the public annuities, and that the 3 per cents.. mnight even b3e reduced. HeI (.Mr. Baring) had the interest of money inL Holland at 2.1 per cen. Te sme esut mghttak plcein England. A steady, ad- hernceto he rinipls wichsuportpublic credit would thus be foun th bes an surst erho ofobtining a reductioni of the ipub-~ Lord ATLIOR, in xplantion,statedl, that he appliedl 'his remaks,netto he edutio ofthestoks,but toi the reductir.,s of interest generallv, by ceasing to withda the sinking fun'l from the acti 'e capital of the country. Mr. WILLIA~I SMITH did not den the benefits. f a real sinking fund, nor was he therefore for emprloying the whole of our surplus revenue for the remission of taxes. He was a frietid to a sinking fund, but the argument of his hon. friend (Mfr. Baring) re- sipecting Holland, did not appearto himnto be just. The interest of mroney vested in national securities, and the interestof money lent private individuals was there different, not bec-ause Holland was. without a sink-ing ?uand, haut because, as his hoin. friendl himself had stated, the revenue of that country did not meet the expenditure, and the credit of Governmeat was consequently not good. Taxe& must thus either be raisedI to meet that expenyuiture, or new loans must be made, citherof which was injurious tn publiccredlit. Thtrte. pelof the stamp duxties an pa-per emnployed Iii lawproceedlings had his hearty approbation ; ansi he wouldl likewise vote 'for the motion, by- which Ihis hon. friendI (1r. Hoblbouse) caled for the reduction of tke window..duty,tiotonlyon account qftje smallnessof the amount,which could notinterfere wvithi the great principles of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's plan, but on accout tof the circumstances which attended its Collec~tion. 1itbrought the tax-gatherer about our houses, and employed a hiost of examinm anid collectors. His hon. friend (Mr. Baring) professed a wish to retain the remainder of the duty on salt, foir the vepeal of wbich the house wvas pledgeI ; but in this suggestion he (i's1r. Smnithi) could not concur,Ilie belisved the remaining duty was not heavily feclt ; hut without a total abolition, the apparatus for the collection of a tax could not be abolished. Silr. BARING explaned. Holland had no surplus revenue, which was the caue of the lowness of her credit. Lord 1i UI ON w0ished to makesa few observations on wvhat badl fallen frnni his hion. frienid the member for Taunton. He would begin with the last of his propositions. He would wish that his lion, friend would alpply his powerful mnind to consider whiether a sinking fund in) this country was thie sole foundaotion of public credit.. Was itnothing in support of public credit that this house existedl -that his ho;nourable friend held a place in it to defend the principles of puiblic faith-that the country enjoyed a free conistitu- tion, and thaat arbitrary acts of spoliation and injustice were condem- nied by our laws ? Was not this the cause of public credit as much as a sinkiugAlundi I And hie would ask his hon. friend, who was well cc.. quainted with suchi transactions, whether he wouldi not lend his moeney to such a free count-ry whhlont a surplus revenue, rather than to the Grand Seignor with the greatest surplus in the wqrld ? (Hear, anidalaugh.)It breams, then, a queston,whetherasinking.fund was apeared so neesr~-as his hon. friend maintained:i notnecssary, it appare toIii (Lrd ilon) the height of injusticeints houise, to call upon all the other classes of thecommnunity to paytatxeatoraise thepriecofpublicstocktoLthe Goverumntnedto. edidnotobject to a sinking thund, becaulse it so raised stock but because it raised it at the expentse of the public. it was well known that the stock- holder was an, annuitant, and that there were two methods of rais- lng the valiie of his'annuity-by reducing the nominal amount of' debt, or increasing thie capital of the country. The employment of thie sink-ing tfund in the purchase of stock operated in the former way ; the remission of it in taxes, 'spas to allow it to be im- ployed profitably by the people thiemselves, operated in the latter. By the first, the five miillions of sinking fund would only be laid out at 4 per cent, : by the latter, it rigiht be increasedt tenfold. The coun- try had a right to look for the diminution of taxation, after what it hadl endured, and national credit did not now requite any aid f~rom a surplius of revenue emiployed to raise stocks. The Hoble lordl then entered itut some observations oni several of thec plans antI statements laid before the houise by the Chiancellor of the Exchequer- in presenting the budget. Thie coirmmercial doctrines and arrange.. mleints of the right honourablc gentleman obtained the noble lord's approbation. lie hoped that thie plan for reducing ~ and regulatiIng the silk duties would not be aibandoned, Ion account of the wise prnn cip which it involved. He (lid not, hlowever, Concur in hisi redi~c_ Inon of thei coal duty, which was a relief onlv to the people of J..,n.. don, while the relief ouight to be grantedI to the country, fsoni taxes of' a general pressure. Thinking nothing wrould afltr that relief more than the abolition of the window-duty, lie -'auld vote for his hon. friend's motion. AMr. H USIE was sorrv to observe, that he dliffered not only fromn hiis hion. friend (Mr. Baring), but froni almost all his hon. friends about him. (A laugh.) The question was not whether we should repeal the window-tax, or abandon the sinking fuind ; for it was not necessary that we shouild do the Ilattqu because we agreed to the for.. tuaer. The house oughlt repeal thi., tax%, and yet, if it thought it ex- pc-den i aintain th sinking fund at its present rate, by diiilgrthe establishmsents. The supplies for the army an mniscellaneous servicca this year amoiunted to 16 millions; she amount of the whole expenditure in 179-2. This would bear a very large reduction, without any detriment to the public interets sin the niationalI security. He remembered about thLree years ago, wherx Ile prOPeePd reductions, thee noble lord opposite (PaImeeston) Con.. tendedi that the estinmates had been made as low as tlhey- could be, antithathle would not reniiain in his place iftrisey were reduced.Before nextt session they had, however, been reduced a milion and a half, and the businiess of the nation went on as before. Let huit thie house repeal the winow.tax to-night, and' without touiching the Niniking funid, an equivalent for it would be found in a eutoiofur es,tablishnsents. If the house agreed to the formner part of the proposition, lie would pledge himiself to tim tiuth of the latter. Let not, then, honourable gentlerm-en be Ofraid hof the sinking fund, for it was not menaced by the motion of his ho.fiend. But he wouild go fartlier, and showv that this siukcing funld, so imuchi vaunted and so rtrictl1ydguarded, was in itsel' injutrious to the country, and thaL if itha not existed, the nation, wvould at this momient have been its a situation so iisuch the nmorm prosperous-. For the 24 y-ears between 1796 and 1820, we had bor- rowed 47i),D00001l., at an average of 61. si. per cent,, and lent out at 41. l7s. per cent., thus losin six sh'illings Interest on the suxm bor- rowed for a sittk-ing-fund. TueI hon. gcentleman here entered into varionus stateiiients no shiow the deluoive or ruinous nature of' the noiminal sinking-fund kept up duin thle war bit' our limits willnot wermit usi to follow hitn. The ion. gent-. then eoneludcd by observing, e i lie inuatter as it would, however, it was. determined to have a real futid, and therefore a loan wes made witlls the Bank. The transaction wAs such &s would disgrace any mnan who knew thec fourl Common rules oF arithmnetic. W'e borrowed 5,000,0001. froni the Bank; and the simple word of the Chancellor of the Ba.. chequiter con vertedl that loan inito a surplus. IVould the house coinsent to be led by ministers who biad done thiings like these ? He knew thiat his calcitlatiotis would niot pass with the gentlemen opposite. If he put two and two together, they were not alIowe4 to make four. (Laughter.) Btit was the country to go, on wsth tisLa, delusion, wvhile there were people in it who needed relief from taxation ? By an improvident loan, we bad what was calld a suteplus ; and at least let it be applied to taking off tha. assessed taxes. Let this course be ado pted, and he would wvarrasst the three: per cents. soon to be at par. Upon these views it was that he trusted the house would acqnie.sce in the present motion. By so dloing, it wotild act wisely aisid with a regard which became thsem to the in.. terests of the peple. And he hoped to see befo)re long,-anotip-t ume simnenrune altogether. Ir. SYKES rose anuld loud cries of questions which rendered the greater part of the hon. mnember's observations inaudible in the gal- ery. He did not mean, he said, at so late an bour of the night, to go into an analysis of the comparative merits of the two budgets which had been sulbmitted to the heose. Of the two he should prefer that brougbt forward by the ChauclUos of theExche4uer, and was in- favour of repealing such taxes as afbcted the commercial creditof' the country . With respect, however, to the sinking fund, he was comispellednto declare, that that was an arrwsgement in which 1mg had no faith; from the first usomnent of its being devised up to the present, (inme, it had done little else than feed the extravagance of ministers. AlSr. HiOBHOUSE shortly roplied.-The right hon. the Chau. cellor of tbe Exchequer had net got rid, as it seemed to him, of the main question_whethier it was desirable that for the nestfour years the immiense annual amount of 56,000 0001. should continue to be raised upon the people. lie thought that pn that qucstion there could scarcely be more than one opinion in thc house;, and he was quite sure that there would be but one opinion upon itin thecountry. On all hands it was allowed that if any assessed tax was to be re. pealed, the window-tax was the best. Honourable gentlemen talkdt of the politeness of the tax-gatherer. This politeness might be shown to the rich, hut there was little of it shown to the poor. It was stated in one of the petitions which lie held irl hill hands that ,vening, that tax gatherers had absolutely sold the beds of persons From under themni and tbat, too, in opposition to the ren;onstrances of res ectable inhabitants of the same parish. The Imonse then divided, when there appeared. For the motion, 88 Against il, 155 1 Majority, 67. The other erders of the ay were then disposed of, aad the hout idjourncd at 12o'dock. _ HOUSE BOF COMMlL1ONS, TUESDAY, MARIAi 2.