House Of Commons, Monday,...
The Times, 1824-04-06T00:00:00

Sir R. SHA%Wj presenteda petition from the Chamber of Cnom. merce of Dublin, against the b41 for regulating the coal.tradc of that citv. irM. IUiNDY presented a petition from the inhabitants of the boreugh ef Derbv against the alien bill. Mr. I,EGH-ICXCK presented a petition from the inhabitants of Hinckley, in Leicestershire, praying for the repeal of the house and window duties. Lord LOWTHER presented several petitions from the inhabit- ants of different parishes in Westmorland, praying for the abolition of slavery in the British colonies. Mlr. C. GRA.l NT presented a similar petition from the Mayor and Corporation of Kelso. Sir M. NIGHTINGALE pregented a petition from the licensed victuallers of Eye. against the excise licences. Colonel LYGON presented a similar petition from the licensed victuallers of Kiddernxinster. Mr. CURWEN presented a petition from t1he inhabitants of Holtne, in the county of C(umberland, praying for the abolition of negro slavery; also a petition from the tanners and cur?Ters of an- other towin against the leather tax. Sir J. lNE WPORT presented a petition from the parish of Fresh. pond, in Kilkenny, against the commutation of tithes bilL MIr. BUCHAN.AN presented apetition from the inhabitants of tle town of Stirling, praying for the abolition of slavery in the colonies. Sir C. COCKERELL presented a petition of a similar nature from the inhabitants of Evesham. Mir. .JAMES presented a petition from the journeyrnen boot anti shoemakers of Penryth, in Cumberland, praying for the repeal of the combinat.on laws. Sil r. Aldermwan WOOD presented a sinilarpetition from the jour. nermen brass-tounders of the city of L,ondon. M^Ir. WELSjLS presented a petition from the licensed victuallers of Bromler, in Kent, against excise licences. Alr. SYKES presented a petition from the shopkeepers of King- ston-uponHull, complaining of the mnanner in which they were assessed for the house and window-duties. Alr. CURTEIS said a few words against the petition, as we un- derstood: MIr. BtIGseT and iMr. W. SsLTR supported it. After a few words from Mr. PELI,-Ar the petition was laid on the table. Nir. PELHA.1M presented a petition from the town of Oswestry. against negro slavery. illr. Aldernan C. SMITH pre,sented a petition from St. Alban's, in favour of the county courts' bill. Alr. KENNEDY presented a petition from Perth, against negro slavery. lIord STANLEY presented a petition from the licensed victual- lers of Ro,hjdaleZin Lancashire, ealonst certain oppressive revula- Dlr. iN ~presentea. a pentiliiuxi se tem our .ituyiitaei'uuL and shoe-makers of Sunderland, against the combination laws. Mr. SPRING RICE presented a petition from an agricultural society in Ireland, against the repeal of the bounties on linen. SirJAMiES MONTGOMERY presented a petition from the notaries of Peebles againstthe attornes' tax. AMr. MANNING presented a petition teom the London Dock Company, praying to be heard by counsel against the St. Catherine's dock bill Captain BRUCE presented a petition from the notarieg of Clack- mannanshire against the attornies' tax. Mir. CALCRAFT, in the absence of an honourable friend, pre- sented a petition from Warninster, praying for a repeal of the as. sessed taxes. He also presented a petition from the Protestant dis- senters of Wareham, complaining of their exclusion from certain offices. AIr. RHU.E presented the report of the artisan committee, which was ordered to be printed. MIr. HUME presented a petition from the notaries of Mlontroae, against the attornies' tax. Ile also presented a petition from the merchants of Perth, praying for a reduction of the house and win- dow duties: and six others against the combination laws, from the carpenters and joiners of London, signed by 2,500 persons; from the tailors of Glasgow, against whom though there are no combina- tion laws, yet the common law is held applicable in this case - from the cloth nappers and calender_wotkers of Glasgow; from the stocking-weavers of Montrose; and fromn the boot and shoemakers of Perth. Mr. HOBHOUSE presented similar petitions from a number of journeymen smniths of Westrminster, .Middlesex, London, and Southvwark, against the combination laws. Lord B1(LGRAVE presented a petition from Chester, against nezro slavery, Lord NUG}ENT presented a petition from Olney, for the gradual abolition of negro slavery. Sir W. INGILBY presented a petition from North Sutton, praying for an abolition of the coal duties. Ir. WODEHOUSE gave notice for the 6th of Miay, of a motion for the continuance of the present duties on salt. He did so by de- sire of several members of both sides o, the house, who were in hopes that instead of repealing that particular ta, some other might be selected wvhich would give more general relie to the country atlarge. ALIEN BILL. Mlr. PEEL hoped there wvould be no objection to their passing the alien bill through acommittee without opposition, and takingthe furthier debate (as lie understood it lwould be discussed again) on the third reading, either on Friday, or Mlonday next. Mr.IHU.1E was unwilling to createadebate at present, and parti- cularly as the right honourable secretary (Air. Canning) had inti- mated that this was the last time thev should be troubled with this measure. Still lie considered it so objectionable, that no modifica- tion would remove the odium of such a bill. He should, therefore, in the committee, propose a clause, to limit the duration of the bill for one year. The house then resolved itself into a committee o0 the bill. Alr. HUME then moved a clause, confining the duration of the bill to 000 year instead of two. MIr. PEEL hoped that the declaration of his right hon. friend (MIr. Canning), which so materially altered the view of the bill, would induce the hon. gent. not to press his motion. Mr. HUTCHINSON said, that nothing but the lateness of the hour when the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Mlr. Can, ning) spoke on a former night, prevented Iirn (31r. Hutchliuson) from replying at the instant to a speech traught with the utmost in- justice tothe foreign emigrants who had sought an asylum in Eng- ianth.Hesliould therefore give notice, that on the third reading, lie meant to state his sentiments generally upon this imost obnoxious and unconstitutional bill, and upon the speech vith which it was at, temptal to be so improperly forced upon the attentioni of the house. Mr. PEEL said, that it would be certainly open to any hon. member to endeavour to throw out the bill on the third reading, and that allowing it to pass through the committee compromaised no hon. member's opinion on the subJect. Lord NUGENT pretestei strongly against the bill, which should in all its stages have his most decided opposition. Mr. HOBiIOUSE did not wish that any body should have the opportunity of saying that this bill had received amendment fron, his side of the louse. He would give all the honour of it to the other side, and would allow no part of it to be shared among his friends. He therefore requested his hon. friend, the meniberfor Aberdeen, to withdraw his amendment. The arnendment was then negatived, and the original clause car. ried without a division. The house then resumed; thp report was brought up, and ordered to be received to-morrow. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rnoved the reading of the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee of suppl AIr. H UME wished to say a few words before the order of the day was read. le saw by the orders of the day that it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to move that evening a grant of money for the purpose of buiHding new churches. The papers relating to this grant he knew had iseen printed, and were in the course of distribution. They had not, however, arrived at his house when he left it; he was therefore certain, that nobody was at present aO well acquainted with the subject as to be able to enter in- to the discussion of it. He therefore trusted that the right bonour- able gentleman would not bring en the subject till the house was bet- ter acquainted with it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that the hosonrable member for Aberdeen laboured under some misappre- hension. It was not his intention to move the grant which had bean alluded to, in the committee of supply. He intenthed to move it in a separate committee,andtofollow thecoursewhich had beets adopt- edon aformer occasion,when thehouse voted 1,000,0001.forthesame purposes. He should move, that the house resolve itself into a committee on the church builaings' acts; and in that committee he should bring forward the resolutions which he bad to propose. He again repeated, that he should not propose them in the committee of blr.BUfiVE_" For what, then, are we going into the commit- tee of supply ?" TrheCHIANO"ELIR ofrthe EXCMUEQUER.-" To vote cer. tam militia estimates, which his noble friend, the Secretary at WaLr, woutld propose to them; and also to vote a surm of moniey for the re- pair of N' indsor Castle." The order of the daty was then read. On the motion of te CHAxCELLOIt Of the Ex-cisEaQuna, tlit SPEAStESt left thie chair, and the house resolved itself into a cen- mittee. Lordl PALMWERSTON proposed, that 195,50011. should be granted to his Mlajesty, for the purpose of defraying the chiarges of the disembodied militia. M1r. HUMEJ proposed thiat this grant shoultl be postpioned, in or- der that it might he discussed at a future olpportnity ih atll the attention whichi it deserved. There was no notic of it given in the order of the day; and as a gallant friend of hsis intended to offbr some observatiors upon the subject to the committee, he trusted that the noble lord would haLve no objection to postpone it to a future opportuniity. After some conversation upon the subject, Lord PALMERtSTON agreed to postpone the proposal of this grant to a later hour in the evening. The motion forit was therefore withdrawn. VOTE FOR WINDSOR CASTLE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, at an. early period of the session he had announced his intentioni of asking the house before its separation to grant to his M1ajesty a certain sum, that was fairly within its means, foi the purpo;e of making alterations, and effecting certain repairs ia Windsor Castle, whiich appeared to himn to be Tequired by the nature of that structure, and by the purposes to whiceh it was applied. He had. stated uponi thati occasion that he considered it a matter of somie importance tdiat a purchiase should be made of some houses, and also of some detached portions of land, without which the object of' improving the Castle could not be effectually attained. He had likewise stated that the entire sum for which he should have occasion to solicit Parliament, would, in all probability, from the best estimates which he hadl yet been able to make of the necessary expense, amount to 3.00,0001 ; and that of that sum he should oinly ask Parlia- ment to grant one half dluring the present year. He did not thiink it necessary to enter upon a repetition of' the general arguments which lie had thien used, to show the grounds on whieh he conceived it flting that this ancient and venerable struc- ture, so long the residence of the Kings of England, should be treated with that respect which Parliamaent and the country had al- ways exhibited towards every s.ubject in. which the proper splendour and inagnificence of' the sovereign were involved. But, though such was his opinion, he didI think it necessary' to make a few observa- tions upon the mode in which he conceived the sum for which he was asking was9 most likely to effect the particular objects to which it was intended that it should be applied. The first object to which this money was to be applied was the promotion of thQ persontal. ease and comfort Qf the mvonvarch, Ouring the periodi he' might choose to reside in Windsor Castle. He heeievedI that every- body who knew any thing of Wiindsor Castle and of the a rr ments which were reserved in it for the private residenceo the Sovereign, knewv thait they were in many respects incovenient, and particularly in the watnt of comnumuication which existed between tlhem. A't present the communication could only be ket open by cutting passages off from the different roomns, and sodstoing the justness of' their proportions. He was of' oPinion that nobody would assert that in a palace wvhich the Sove, reign felt inclined to select for his residence, his ease and onifort ough t to be sept at nought by refusing to supply hiin with the funds which were necesary topromote them. Stuch was thefirst object to which this grant was to be applied. The committee would see, that in order to give it full effect, it was material that a better access than now existed should be made fromi the King's private apartments to those which were called his state apartm~ents. Ifon, memnbers must be aware that there were many parts of the Castle entirely reserved fqr puirposes of state. 'IPhere were apart- mients which had been known fer centuries by the name of the King's state rooms, and others that were equally well knowni by tie namne of the Queen's state rooms. Between these roioms and those whi ch thie King ulsually occupieth, it was only fitting that tlieTe shouldl be (lirect and commnodious commru-nication, Now it wvas impossible for the King to go into the state apartments from his private apartment at present, withiout making a considerable detouir, and without en- countering several inconsveniences, to whbich, for various reasons, he ought not to be subjected. To open a free conimunication between these distinct parts of the Castle was the second object to which this sum ofnmoney would beaprplied. The third had also reference to the state apartments. Nobody would deny that they eught to he miain- tained with a degree of splendour that was becoming the Sovereign who ruled over the country, and also thie country over which he ruled. It was therefore proposed, that a certain part of' the gat should ba a pplied to the embellishment and improvemento this part of thie Castle. It was also not im-possible that it maight be ad- visable to make some alterations, thiough not to any, great extent, in the interior of the Castle. The commnittee were aware, that at dif- ferent periodsi several alterationts had been mnade in its interior, and thos no alaysconistnt iththeageand chiaracter of the pil, o coiduiveto he onvniece f those whxs occupied it. s mght pehap, b aswel, aw that they were occupied in rpaiingandbeatifingthi veerale structure, to remove the unsghty atertios wichignrane ad bad taste had made in it. The ommtte wee awre hatthee hd already been a removal of certain buildings reserved for the reidence of certain officers, of state, whichi, though not belonging to the Castle, were placed directly, be- fore it. The butildings to which he alludLed ran aeross the Long- walk, intercepted the view over it, and were one of the greatest eye- sores that couldbe wellimagined to anytp arson who was anxious to obtain a distinct view of Windsor-castle. It had therefore been thought advisable to remove them altogethier. Besides these build- ings there were othiers which were objectionabhe as ideformities. in themslelves, and still more objectionable as deformnities growing upon that otherwise beautiful structure. Now, as there could be no diffrence of opinion as to the priopriety of removing buildings so incong-ruous, he trusted thiere woul also be no difference as to the mode of effecting that ?emoval. Some of these buildings, he maist inorm the coiumitteeuwere the proverty of private individualr. U 1.0 LOSUIjJcCL- 6m - J-.. -_ -1 ' ,J ,Li buildings, to which he thought that nobody would be averse, who felt at alli interested in the bieautyof the Castle. The same observe.. tion would also applY to the purchase of certain portions of land, which 'were neCessary to the improvement of the domnain of Wind. sor-park. There were at present several detatched portions of ground in the hands of private individuals, which were com- pletely surrounded by, the Park, and which it would be a great improvement to add to it- These portions of groand were adjacent to the Long. valk. Every body, knew that that walk was the most majestic avenue in the world; and yet there were individuals possessed of ground on both sides of' it, who could at any moment destroy its grandeur by erectiug houses, or streets of houses, upon it. These individuals, he knew, were willing to part with their property for a suitable remiuneration ; and if the comNmit- teeshold e o oinisnI that the doimain of WVindsor-park ought to be improved he Odino knewv of any method by whichi it could be betripoed than by purchasing such portions of land as he had just desceibe He had now stated otecmite h bet o whichb he wanted this sum nof 300,0001. He might perhaps be asked how it was that he camie down to Parliament to request of it so large a sum of nioney, wheni lie had no detailed estimates or accounts of the expense tco be inicurred to lay before it. To such a question he would answer, that it was not easy to draw out estimates upon a subject like the p re- sent, especially when there was property to be purchased for wbich the negotiations had not been concluded, ansI when tenre were plans to be c-onsidered of which every portion ouight to be discussed before one step was taken to e-xecute tlsem. He Raid every nortion to be discussed, because without suchi discussion they miight 'be involved, as they hiad already been once this session, in wvorks which it mighit be linadvisable to bring to a conclusion. It would be pfarticularly unfortunate if any, tldng of that kind should occur in the works at Windsor, because they could not be eonsimenced writhout consider- able inconvenience to his Majesty-a considerationa which he wa-s sure would induce the committee to do every thing in their power to shorten thetcimneduring which hisMiajessy must necessarilysubmittoit. If the committee shouldl refuise to p lace in the hands of Governmient the funds which it demanded, until it received an es%timate of all the expenses to be incvurred, this year would elapse before a single met. sure couild be taken, either to repair Or beautif' the Castle ; and his Majesty miust remain for another year exposedXto all the various in- convenmencies which he had before attempted to describe. Hectbcre- fore trusted that thie commiittee would not think the circumstance of his not detailing the precise natuire of the alterations to be miade and the expense to be incurred a sufficient reason for denying hiitu thie money which he requested. He knew that in asking for th.e nioney in the mianner he did, he was incurring a serious responsi. bility on behalf of tile Government of which he was a member, and that. he was callllg lupon the committee to repose upon the Govern- menit in full confidfence that it would not allow the mioney initrusted to its care to be appllt-d to onwortby purposes. That responsibility, however, Government was wiflling to inCUr, andi he trusted that its conduct had been, suchl as to justify time coummitie tee in placil~g in it the confidence he deiinansled. (Hlear, heas.) There was one part, of this subject which he had Hoe yet nientioned, and to which he was particularly a-nxious to refer,-he meant that part of it whichi referred to the appointment o1 a commiission to superintend the plans, upon the execittion of which this sum of' 300,0001. was to be expended. Great mini3appreliension aRpeared to have prevailed with regard to this -otumissimon. In the first place, it never was intended that Parliaincnt should have the appointment of this Commission, unless it were found necessary to give it powecs whichino branch of the Governmnenltat present possessed. As it was not, however, necessay to give them anty auch ?owers, there would be no occasiog to akrarliasient to sanction tile commiission, and the commission would thlerefore be issued in the uisual nmanoer.- With regard to the appointment of a commnission, lie had heard it stated, that it wast not only an unnecessary, but even an unconstitu- ti'onal mneasure. He allowred thlat a commission, would be hiighly imn. p oper, if it were appointed for the purpose of withidrawing fromi his 3S aesty's Government the responistbility WhichI natUrally belonged to it. Some individuals would necessarly be laced in the com- mission from the very, nature of the Off,ic1es whcf, the "y hiiiap ened to hold ; and that being the case, gentlemien would see that his Mla- jesty's ministers wiere not aesirous of tbrowing off ffhetr owns s'aoiil- shers the burden wlhich thley aicknowledged it to be their duty to bear. LTe fully admitted, on behalf of Government, that it was the oaily party that could be responsible for the expenditu-re of the mronveyK;helikewise admnitted that it was responsible, also,for another part of this subject-he mecant that which related to taste; but, at the same time ithat he admitted all this, he still thought that the committee would not be surprised at hearing that those who would become coimmissioners ex.-ftico, were anxious to avail themselves of the opinions of other gentlemen who were fully compete4t to give trustworthy opinjons. He edidwnot know that it was the part of the executivegovernment, or ofsthe first Lord of the Treasury, or of the gentleman who filled the office which he then held,-he did not know that is was incumbent upon all or any one of them that they should be persons of good taste. fie could not pretend to the cha. racter of a man of good taste himself (a laugh); he should thierefbre be happy to have the advantage of the judgment of others to direct him upon any points on which his own might be defective. 'Mr. Burke had declared, that it was quite hopeless that much lattention should be paid by the Government of this country to the fine arts, for it was impossible, he said, that our statesmen, either from their education, or from tbeir various occupations, should be much seill- ed in mnatters of that kind. Were he to judge of the difficulty of performing this part of his duty-if, indeed, matters of taste fell within bis duty-froas what had already occurred this session, he should say, that it was by far the most arduous duty that he had to perform. Every body, it appeared, was able to condemn, and the power to condemn always passed as a proof of the capactty to exe- cute. When, however, it bgeame necessary to csnsider what oughL to be done, and not to find fault with what was already done, then he foand that there were scarcely two persons who agreed on any one point- He therefore considered It too much to say that Government ought not to avail itself of theassistance which itcould not fail to de- rive from men of acknowledged taste astd ingenuity. Be. sides, the mode which Government was inclined to adopt up- on, this occasion was not entirely without precedent. Is for- mer time4 of our bhisfry5 DobDlay ever thoiuglt it requisite tlat the Executive Government should have any taste, and-'for his own part he did not know whether it had ever Possessed any. h [atters of that kind were generally left to the Board of Works, an'd to the indi- vidual who happened to be at the head of it. In consenuence. of that arrangerment tinp repairs of WVindsor Castle were on 'one occa- &lon, left to Sir 'iv. Chambers. W'hatever opinion eile committee mighit have formed as9 to the merits Of Sir Willianm Chambers, and he for one thought thtte a enconsiderably over-rated, be was still thought abl tprfmtetakallotted to him, notwitib, standing all the sair hihdao Ip ill-naturedly launched against him irs his Heoc~ps t.A ht tirme nobody suspected the T'reasury of taste, adashhdbeoesaid, over matters of that kindl the Board o ok ege urm-abtr nteya 1802, however, we alaetvtdalresmo oe for the pur-poseofpreutn th galnacivm ts f our army andnay adwhni was determined to erect~ public monuments to the meor Of those who had dlied in lighting bravelv the battles of tlheir coutntry...at that period a melan- sure was adopted, which had been regularly adopted ever since, for thiepurpose of giving full efTedt to the resolutions of ParHiament. A Treasury minute was issued, appointing certain individuals to con- sider all-plans which should be submitted to them for the erection of monumnents to departed worth. Those individuals had been treated in that hiouse with a degree of disrespect which, in-his opinion, they little meritedl. They had been sneering-ly denominated"1 the commit- tee of taste." Now those individuals had never had any thing to do wvith the erection of the monuments-.to that part of the business thle Treasury always looked itself: all that they had to do wa to ju dg of the plans submitted to their approbation. Tht system which the Treasury adlopted in 1802 had been productive of great advantage; and he believed that a great and visible improvement had taken place in the arts owing to its having availed itself of the assistance which it then caled in. That system, he again repeted, did not deprive the Treasury of any responsibility to which it was before liable ; it inspired the public, h~owever, wfth con'fidence th,at the monum-ents whicli its gratitude erected to its benefactors were not erected without the sanction of the most competent judIges. He therefore considered it productive of great practical benetfttat the Execu tive Government could have, tliroucli this maedium, the benefit of the opiraon of those persons who werebest abla to takeuascientific view at such matters, and by the weight of their chiaratter ts recommend thieir view to th pulcgnrly It was for that reason that Iiis nobl friend at the hewl of the Treasury and himn- self thought that the public would be better, satisfied if they, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Earl of Liverpool) were authorized to tall in to theirassistance individuals with the qualifica- tions he had before described. His noble friend,and his r-iglit hon. col. league the Comimissioner of WVoods and Forests, would be members of the proposed commission. Without wishing to withdraw them- selves from the respor~sibility which belonged to them, being always readly on his own behalf and on that of' his collesgures to com~e before thte house and defend their condluct, taking. for h-is mnotto " Adsrusn quiifecli...n ine convert ite voces," he trusted that it would not appear strange that they wished to avail themselves of thec assistance of men whose op)inions upon point of taste all the country agreed in respecting, He therefore hoped that the commit. tee would not, either on account of the amount of the sum, the principles oni which lie asked it, the mo-de in which he intended to apply it, or the assistance whichi lie designed to call in for furtheelng the dbjoects fur which it wvas wanted, withihold fromn him the grant of 1,001. for this year. (Hear, hear.) He shiould now concludle by moving " That there be granted to his Majesty the sum of 150,0001. without fee or deduction, for the purpose of defraying the charge of' repairs andI works to be executed at WindsorCastle in the yezr lM24." (Cheering.) Sir J. YORKE thought that siothing requiredi more taste or greater delicacy than the appsoachi to a question like the presenit, in whicli the subject was the residence of the Sovereign, and in the dis- cussion of'whiceh it might perhaps be necessary to throw cold water on theardent speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (A laugh.) W-Iith respect to WVindsor Castle, it struck him that as it had been so long the residence of a race of'nmonarchs, all that it was necessary to doregarding it was to keep itin proper repair. For what purpose were they now going to expaid this sum of money on that venerable structure ? To render it of one uniform style of building? It waee well known thlat the Second Chiarles had altered all the windows to the Saxon arch, and that the Thiird George had altered thiem to thec Gothic arch, If gentlemen would examaine the Castle tlirough, they would findt that all the windows were of one or other of these two orders. Now, were the commit- tee going to alter these windows to some standard of uniformity? And if they were, coLuld they give the country a guarantee that somie successor of the present ihllonarch would not alter them back, again to their f(armner conditions ? (Hear.) WVitli regard to the commis- sion, he supposed that in addition to the noble earl at the head of the Treasuiry and his two right hon. friends below him, thnere would be Mr. Sniirke, from Cuvent-garden, with Alr. Soane at hais hack, Dir. Nash, with hiis Chinese pavilion (on whom, by the by, his honour- able friend, the memiber for Corde Castle, had lately borne rather too barl), and MVr.WVyatt, with liis genuine Gothic. In that mixed com- mission of taste, and arithmetic, and architeture, he did not know what might be done with WVindsor Castle; but ht suspected, that if his right bonourable friend west gallopping on, buying up lands and horuses, as he had piofiessed that ha would do that evening, he would not conclude until he had purchased up the whole town of Windsor.- Wllith respect to the proposed alterations, it was vary probable that the opinions of architects would be taken, whose ideas ware opposed to each other as completely as the four points of the compass. Then they were to have the assistance of a mnixed commissiona; and,- afialy, the Rouse of Commons, which never decided any thing, was- to beconsulted. Un)der such circumstance, it appeared to him that they would not form a berter building than that which they had. at present. He understood that it was intended to erect a su'spension bridge between WVindsor-park and the palace itsel f (A laugh.) If thiey went on in this vway, he slipposed that ultimately thlis venerable royal residence would be taken down, and same ex- traordinary (lothic structure wouild be raised on its site, such a structutre as would probably excite the astonishment, if not the admiration of mankip, ,~~Aie toapproachi this subject with somne degree of caution. If they did not, it was very likely that a large sum of money would be laid eut, and a palace less noble than the present would be the result of the expenditure. MVr. BANKES wished to impress on the house the necessity of proceeding cautiously and circumspectly on this occasion. The ill effects, of haste ainti prciac were observable in the build. ings now erecting in N\ ew Palac-e-yard, by which the beautiful entranlce to Westmninster..hall was absolutely dis~graced. Haebelieved there was not a man in that house who diAi not -wish that those buildings had never been erected. (Hear, hear.) W1ith respect to Windsor Castle, he admnitted the necessity, of taking down somne adjacent buildings, which were objectionable to the commonest asid least scientific eye. If that fine edifice were intended to become, a-s he trusted it would, the permanent residence of tIse sovereigns of this countrv, he thought it ouight to he repaired in a manner be- fitting the 'dignity of the Crown, and the grandeur of this great nation. In such a case, it would be proper to inquire whetber there was sufficientaccommodation forthbeconveaience oA'heSovereign in private, and wvhether the public apartmenta were possessed of that splendour wlichl ought to distinguish a Court? He believed the faict to he, that the private apartmnents were by no means commro- dious, and that those of a public character weare riot suited' to the splendour of a CaurL. A goodI deal of what had fallen from his gallant friend (Sir J. Yorke) struck him very forcibly. His gallant friend had accused him (Mr. Bankes) witif having on a formierI niht spoken slightingly of a certain architect; but what hiss gal- lant friend had said on the p resent occasion was not much in, that individual's favour. He (Mr. Bankes) was of oPinion, thalt there was no modern architect whose works could be entirely commiended, It, for instance, they leaked to the new street, they would find s3me of' the buildings remarkably beautiful, whilst others were not deserving of approbation. Ha conceivedI that, in fornmin those apatents in WVindsor Castle that were to be devoted to public=bsiess, one graiid prevailing feature of taste otught to be adopted. As to the exterior, tiie great object ought to be, to pull' down as little as possible, and to preserve with the utmnost care, the uniformity of'style by which the building was distinguished. He wvished that the style of architecture of the reign- of Edward Ill., the great monarch in whose reign the Castle was built, should be kept up as faras possible. In order the more effect- ually to attain the object which Governilient had in view, he thoughtI it was importanit that a great variety of Plans should be caUled for from different quarters.Theseshrould beaubmitted for approbationi to1 persona whose knowledge of the subject was genemally admitted. His rightihon.friend (IlieCbanceiloro' theExcbequer)wsas,hebeliev,cd,per- feetly coinpetent to decide ;but,as his othier dutiesrmight prevent his attending to this subject, it wvould be proper that some piersoii should be appointed in the office of the Board of Wlorks, or the Surveyor- General, or elsewhere, not to find fault withi any plans, that might be sent in, but so ensure the selection of the best. It was impossible that his right hon. friend, or the memibers of the Treasury Board could compare plan with plan, drawing with drawing, and elevation with elevation. Thierefore he wished that dluty to be per- formned by others. It was desirable that the intended palace should be not only beauztiful in itself', but that tie style of the reign of Bd- ward Mi. should be uniformly, preserved in every part. He was quite convinced that, if an attempt waere made to restore Windsor Castle to what it was formnerly, every application to that house for- the fund,i necessary to carry 'on the work wouild receive the nusotI cordial support. Lord G. CAVENDISHI was of opinioni that the whiole respoo-- siblity of this measure oughit to rest with his ilajesty's Minilisters, alnd with them alone. There was, undoubtedly, a certain sumi pro- posed to be granted ; but who could say, th-at double or quad- ruple that sum woiild not be demanded before the work were finished ?He thought it, therefore, unfair to call on gen- tlenien who were not connected with his lVIajesty's - tovern- merit to lend their assis.tance and they to become respeinsible, in some degree, for the expenditure of the pubhic money. (Hear.) For his own part, he wouldI recommiend those who might be request-- ad to give their aid oni this occasion, to reruse the ali,plication. Air. CUR WBN observed, that it was very true they had the de- claatin o th rihthon get. hat30,0001., of which die suns now prposed ormedapart,would e perectly sufficient for ti-spin. tened bjet: ut hatdecaraionwasnot enough for hiim. Hle didnotthik b wold e jstiiedin greingtothis grant, unless it ereproedto 'ss tat he lteatonsandreairs would not re- qiemr.He fel that he would not eatn firirly towards the pulc fhe agreed to a plan. witlh thdeal of '~lhieh he was Milr: HUMiE said, it had been recommended, long ago by the report of committee, that no money should be advanced for the purpose of erecting or repairing public buildihgs, unless a plan and estimnate were previously laid before the house. What plan or esti- mate was produced on this occsion ? They had nothingon whicl to act, except the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a more indelfinite statemet ha certainly baa never heard. He.- therefore, was much surprised, that the hon. gent. (Mr. Bankes) should at once give his sanction to this measure. Ground, he understood, wvas to be purchased. Sle should like to be informed to wbat extent. He had been told the purchase of ground would take at least 150,0001. (Hear.) He thought it ne- cessary to stop, in linzine, until the whole of the details were before the hease. The right lionourable gentleman himself did not know what plan would be finally decided on. WVhy, then, did he caU on the house for this grant ? Why dia he not wait till the plan was adopted ? (Hear.) Whoever was to erect or to repair those buildings, let the proposed alterations be pointed out to him, and iet him subniitaplan of the best modein which thechanges could be made, and an estimate of the probable expense. This was the only way in which the subject could be grappled with. If he were rightly informed, one-half of the sum mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be swallowed up in the purchase of ground. Next yearthe righthon. gentleman would ask for 50,0001., and the jyear after for IO,OI. Ilheu, perlhaps, he would tell the house, afterhaving expended these sums, that the work must stop short, g unless a further supply were granted. If the plan were to be settled Eby the ist of Mray, why, he asked, did the right honourable gentleesan come down for money now? Ile believed there *o to isecessity for thin hurry. Iii his opinion there was at presenit Very 9eod Privati a1ccommoAdatIn at Windsor Calstle c aid as to holdirig courts therel~ he c~ertalnly didl hot think it wit niecessry, If prepari- tions were tobe made for holding 'a kingly' cutonaetnse scale att WVindsor, thiey might rest satisfied thatfiver timesthearinn of the proposed stumwould not be sufficient for the utidertaklcjig.. The riht hon. genitlemnan tol'd them that a ispecific plan 'would be adoptd; but could be say that his MVaj'esty mingt not hereafter alter it?.. Hear.) He must know very . W llaWtthe plan laid -down on the lht.f Mlavanight be altered on the 15th : there was nothing to prevent it. He would not vote against the grant alto.. gether; but lhe could not vote for it unless he knew what changes were contemplated and what the prohbable expense would be. Certainly"that house would be acting in a way in which they had never acted before, if they voted ni&ney for erecting or alteria~g a building of very gret extent witht- out having all the necesarv information before them.. He hoped, therefore, thae right hon. geritlerman would see.,the proprieiv Of Post-. poning this grant, until he was ready to submit his Plans tO Parlia.. ment. It woruld show an utter regardlessuess of the public interest, andl a decided eGntempt for vari0xs reports made by commsittees ok' that house, if they, proceedadV*6,ote a sum otf 300,0001. or 40ol without knowing for wbaziieifin obiect. He should therefore Moere, " That this vote be postpoed until the plan and estimate ate pre.' pared, and laid on the table." MVr. EL G. BENNET begged leave to reconl the motionl of his bon. friend. He felt no smuall alatrm at the speech of the, right hon. gent., coupling it,asa he did, with the observations of the hon. gent. on the floor (Mr. Bankes.) In mnaking the alterations at Windsor Castle, which were now threatened, he hoped care would be taken not to disfigure the south -ront. It was one of the, enost beautiful specimens of Gothic archiiecetre in the kingdom-.it was; admired by all as a perfect model of that species of the alt, andi ought to be presered with the utmost care. He was, however afraid, that in the rage for alteration, somne unhallowed hand wouij deformr and disfigure that noble pi;ee of art. The Lante expe.. rience which they had on the subject of arehitecture was not calculated to remove his apprehenripns on this point. They must lbave remark-ed with regret the progress of bad taste in aschi- tecetnre, beginning at Brighton and ending in the New street. Such structures were raised in all quarters, as must excitethe disgust of' every man who had any pra,tensions to taste. Buiildings of the maost ,,,so. gesnetiof these alrgady been erected in the vicinity of' in or On o thsewas ~sr of Gothic-cottage, with a thatched roof-~a sort of thatched Henry the Seventh's chapel, the building of which cost 30 0OOOL The architect had asLho raised a red brick tower hit WVinsor park. That, he understood, wast to come dowu at least he lhoped it would. At Brightton, too, a most ex-- traordinary edifice had been erected, at a great expense. Ile be. lieved the money' for its erection was not voted hy Parliamnent, but was taken out ot the droits of the Admiiralty. Tfhat, however, was of little importance. Whbether it was taken outof the righthbaid or the left, it was unquestionably abstracted from funds whiich might have been made available for tne pulcsric.Bfr tey hastily voted the sum now called gae, he wished to put the house on their guard against supposing that thle work would be Completed for- the sum mnentioned by the right hon. gent. He would put them on, their g-uard, by~ repeatinj~ two words..--- Caledlonian Canad." (Hear.) Let them recollect the lustory of that notable work, and pause. They were told that a certain stipulated sum would be sufficient to finish the canal ; hut, year after year, they found the same item in the estimates. After 500,0001. hadi been voted, ministers saidi, " we wanit 50,0001. more." Those who obj'ec t thle job, called on the house n'ot t-o throw good money at'teMBad_ But ministers always had the ready, answer, "tOh! as we have gone so far, let us 'spend something miore, and make the work perfect. " Thus the Caledonian Canal went on; and thus, he believed, those repairawuld prPceed. Year after year there would be a call for 150,00. and he believed the youngest man in that house would never live to see WVindsor Castle finished. (Hear.) It would take mil. lions of money to complete that work. He would ask ofany peison who hadl ever attemnpted torepair ani old house, whether it did not always cost much mnore than he had supposed it would ? He knew, in hisown family that nesiated expenditure of a few hundreds for repairs wasultmatly weled to many, rmany thousands. He ventured to, preict tat n tisinstance the result would be the same. He wisedto eethepln,and to know the name of the hardy architect whowoud rojct hepulling down of any part of Windsor Castle. (Hea.) hla wuldnot consent, either thai the "1 select many" of therigt h:s.gen. oposite, or the " select few" of the hon. gent. on he loo (w o,e spposed, would himself be one of them) shiouldl decde n tis ubjct.Hewised he pla tobelaid before the puhic.e wshe thm gnerllyto ivether oinion on it; and,, above all, h a eiost er h aeo thie architect who, enitertailned theprojecto uln oto fta ancient and vene- rable ediice WVindsoCate Sir . LOG sad, those gentlemen whou fancied that any inten- tionof ullng owna part of Wiindsor Catstle was entertained by hisMajstys Gverment, laboured under an entire mistake and misoncptin. Hea.)He never heard that it was meant to pul don ay prt f at ancient edifice-he believed such ar- ject everenteed te cotainlation of any person. (Hear.) V ith respect to what had been sale as to the responsibility which would beincurred by~ those gentlemen wvhose services mighit be required isa looking at the plans, a great mistake prevailed. In calling- in them to examiine the plants, it never was intended thlat Lihey should be at all responsible for thie expense that might be incurred. The responsibility, with reference to the ex- pendtur of he ublc moey,woul atachsolely to his itiajes- :y'aminstes. (ear) Hs ho. fien onthe floor (Slr. Bankes) epperedto tinkthatWinsor aste ouht ot only to be repair-ed, to a toaffod te bst pssile RiCt acmodati-On for his Mia- jesy,buttht gea rgar soul asobe had to the splendour of ihe parment, t rener hem it or oldinig courts. He, hlow- ever,never ke ht Majesty entertained any intention towkeep lirs ourt at W dsr Hekew occasions might arise,when it wuc be necessary for his Mlajest to meet large assemblies there ; but the idea of holding Courts there niever was promulgated. The hon. Fent. who last spoke condemned in strong terms sny alteration of 'Aind.. Ffilirift,Wt& t~iuit'O3itd '(Hear. Thba't feontwse?rety muc in th Mate in whch it had been lei1 irn the and as ndobtely,as the hon. maember hat. itaed,avey prfet pecmenof he rcitecture of that day. Ris ton frer. ontheflor hd sggetedthe propriety of having the alteatins ade asnealy s pssile,in the style of' the original erchtecuce Ths wuldbe oneas far as it was prac.. 2cable : but it would be absurd to have tlsem entirely in ffhat style. Gentlemen would recollect, that at the period when) that edifice was founded, castles were Dnilt as places of lefence (hiear), and therefore a species of artichitecture was adopted, which could not, in some instances, be followed nowv. Cir- cumstances had naturally rendered the applictation of that species of irchitecture improper, in some instances; but care would be taken tn presrve as -u~ of the original character of the architecture as it was posible to retain. His hon. friend on the floor had said that lie, wouldinvie plans from all quarters. They had tried that systemn, in mnany instances and those wvho had tried it Eacknowledgid that it was beset with dilculties. It frequently happened, that the man who produced a good plan Was Wtotlly unable to carry it into effet. e wo pesened god pan,always expected to carry it intoexeutin, hwevr iadeqatehe ight be to the task; -and it wasver dificlt,if e wre ot lloedto carry it into execution, ~o rocre noter ersn wo wuld Itwas therefore better that :hecometiionhoud b cofind t afw architects, but that they ,houd b ofthefirt-rte xcelene. e conceived that the state-. nene of his right honourable friend was, perfectly satisfactory. He rail given a general estimate, as Rearly as po&sible--a detailed esti- mate could not be expected at that moMent. His tight bonourable 'riendhad ex lcty'tate,d, that the whole sum required for the ne. :esaryurcass, nd ortheeepir oftheCatle woldnot cx- .t as ossblefo hi riht onorale ried t cofi exteependi.. oreto heestmaed um?Hesawnohin difialtinit. The erchtet,when called on to give in hspa,wudo course be old,tha he must formn such a lna ol cm cti specified tim. To that it was his duytofrma. (Hear, hear.) The ionourable gentlemian t-eemedt hn that Cthis was very oh- ectionable : but he was quite sure that if some specific sum wrere not stated, the hon. gentleman would say, that it was iinpossi.. )le for any one to tell to what extent the expendiiture wvould be car- !ied in the absence of a plan and estimnate. The architects would be old thiat they would be confined to a certain sum of money; and lIsat, he conceived, was the only mode by whichi the object could 3e properly attaired. Every thbsog should be done for the conve- htence of his Mlajesty (bear, hear), and it was an utndoubted fact, hbat WVindsor Castle was niot at present in a state fit for his residence. Hear, hear.) The communication between the private and the state spartments was very defective, and it would take a considerable tutn of money to connect them properly. Lord J. RUSSELL quite agreed with the right hon. baronet, hbat it was proper W4indsor Castle should be renidered every way .eorthy of hit Alajesty's residence. (Hear.) Hie believed it was at present in such a situation as made it prudent to delay the necessary .epairs as little as possible. Still, however, he should like to know whbat repairs or alterations were intended. They ought~ pot blindly :o vote this mioney, they knew not for whst-,~Itfi a Chance, Per- ltaps, that some part of this ancient edifice would shortly assume the sxternal. appeaTance of a Mahometan mosque. (Hear.) The righit ionoitrable baronet observed, that the lion, gentleman on the floor was niistaken in supposing that His Maljesty meant to hiold courts at Wind.- ,or; anda he hadl also observed, that his hon. friend (Mlr. Benuet) was in error, when he spolke of the pulling down of the south front. Now, the right hon. hart, might be very wpell informed opt this sub- aect ; but it was fit also that the whole house should have some xe. ,uIar informatioa as to what was meant to be dione. The vote he :hought, ought to be postponed until they knew the manner in wbtiell ;he money was to be disposed of. (Hear.) The righit hon. bart. albserved, that tliose gentlemen who would be selected to act oil t'he ormnussion, would not be responsible for the expentilture of the noney,as the whole ofthat responsibility would rst oh tfie'Treasury. But if therehappened to be acaUl for more money,'odr itthe builtding were repaired in hiad taste, there could b" no doabt but that thqsfqm mission would be blamed in agesff& less derceeal though th er ipt lordslsfthe Treasury. HAr therefore, thoughtt vjtsac aits'a~i.on WWih thoei vho; Mi#gat 'or sel*aete for thie coTM5V)M W xen wuIot usre and ondemnaton. Now, hen thatcondemnaIonws flying abou plntiull, h1 fr oe, f sleced,should say, " am much oblgedto ou or hi ofer,whih wllenable me to share it the much rather enakee one of a commission -hich 's likely to be eulorized." The architects nliglt say, " This sum is not sufficient to render Wintdsor Qastle a fit rcidence-for the King, but'weewillgive you'i 'thatvWl completethe Castte, and make it wvorthy pf the paonarch but it wvill cost SO,OOOL more." The Cha,r celor of the gxche~uer would perhaps reject that pl&B after haivmng received 150,0 . on account, and no person would'know what was to become of that money. The proper couos would4 b for the ria,ght hon, gent. to come dowvn With a plan and'th, rnaste, drawn up by ai architect, and then to cAll for the necessaty sum. The archQitct who mightbe employed to make the (tdOnlfOrtab1p was responsible to those whoegaged him, poz to expend alarger sumi than that which was stipulated. t had been stated that o50OWOL out of the 300,000L would be required for the purchase of gto5titd, If that were the case, it would be mucb better to build on the 'owl lands, rather thanr to call on 'the public for this money, I lr. 31ABERLY wishea to know whether' the righb ho. nourable gentleman was prepared to say that the vote of 150,0001. now called for, was part of the 300 OWL'which he had men. tioned in the course of his speech, and whlcter the hkouk would be called on for no more than thia specic sum of 300,000LI Whathe wantedtounderstand, and distinctly to understand, WaS this-Was the 150,0001. which the right hop. gentlerai stasXked for part of a specific sum -which was not tabe cxcceded t Odilw4 itonlY so much on account of a charge not yet asccrtaine-? 'He was far from wishing to limit the personal convenience, or to dictate to iti taste of thle Sovereign; and it the ChanceUor of the Exchequer distinctly delared ,tlsat30,0l. would be tutmostfarthingcaMte for, he had uodbjection at once to. vot tie O150,0001.; but inles tbat aa&umance wcagsven unejuivocallys ho sbould coertailyssuk ptevented:tig 8rat extent tbe working upof their own produce. His objection ta the exportation of long wool was, thst it was a ra w ma. terial, of the peculiar growth of this country, and the foundation of ;a ver considerable and flourishing nanufactory. Whatever might be the fate of the bill before the house, he should at least have to say that he foresawv and stated the evils which he wras sure muast result trom the proposed measure. The order of the dav was then read, andthe bill was read a se- cond time, sand orderted to be committed to-morrow. COAL AND LIN N DUTIES. The order of the day was then read for the second reading of the customs on coals and linen bill. Sir il1. W. RIDLEY rose, not for the Purpose of opposing this bill, but to protest against the injustice of levying an unequal duty upon the consumers of coals. MIr. AIABERLY said, that the rizht hon. gent. had thought it expedient to take off the London duties on seaborne coal, and to re. leese the inland coal from certain restrictions, but he had not follow- ed up the principle of fLxing thc duties equally on all his MIajestv's subjects. He (iMfr. AMaberly) saw no reason why the manufacturers of London should pay a larger duty, added to the expense they must necessarily pay for carriage, tnan tbose who lived near the mouth of the pit. He thouzht, that upon principle there could be no objection to doing away with .al thedutie. on coal, With respect to the linen trade, unon which it was proposed to take off the pre- sent bounties, he was enabled to show, that what were caUed boun- ties were not sufficient drawbacks proportioned to the existing duties; and he was sure the house must agree with him, that if the boun- ties were to be taken off' the duties ought also to be remitted; and he earnestly recommeAded that the dutv on flax should be with- drawn, if possible. He also objected to that provision of the bill which admitted ships with foreign sails and cordage into English ports because it wasobvious thatall ships, whether they wanted themnor not, would take them in, when they coald be supplied 50 percent. cheaper than in England; and thus considerable damage would be done to the British manufacturers. Hle oroposed to state more fully his ob- jections when the bill should be in committee. Mr. HUSKISSON did not think it necessary to follow the course of the hon. member's obiections; but with respect to the duty on coals, he would simply statet that it was a very difficult thing to change the mode of levying it. He mig,bt admit all that the hon. member had s3id respecting the inequality of that dutv. and POrt the postponemchit of the grant, until ministcrs produud such Planvs as the house might concur in. He begged to repeatthe indis-' pOSttion he felt to oppose the present grantamomentlonger than wVas absolutely necessary ; but he thought that after the monstrous waste of money which had taken place on the schemes of the Caledonian Canal and the Aillbank Penitentiary, Parliament could not be too caut.Ous how it voted large sums withou; the authority of plans and estimates. The CHANCEiLOR of the EXCHEQUER expresset his sathufaction at the ready disposition which appeared in the house to nC!uiesce in every thing which was necessary for the convenience | and honour of the Sovereign. Such a disposition was creditable in tuchbighest degree to the house, and the exhibition of it could not fail to give luch pleasure to every lover of constitutional nmonarchy. With reference to that which had fallen from the hon. member op- osi'te (Mr. Alaberly), nothingi could be more preposterous certain- lY. than for him (supposing h'e was doing such a thing) to be call- ing for sums on account of an expenditure wvbich he believed to be indefinite. But the view which hb took of the thing was extremely different. He had stated on a former vc nins, that the sum to be laid Out was 300,0)01. ; and he now asked, distinctly, fbr 150,0001. on account of it. -He had no hesitation in saying, that certainly no- thing which was contemnplated-nor any thing, as it seemed to him, w;hich could reasonably be contemplated-would go beyond that charge of 300,0001. Obviously, it was difficult to come to any de- tailed estimate at the present moment, because a portion of this 300,0001., the house was aware, was to be laid out in the Purchase of land and houses adjoining Windsor Castle; and to name anv specific, or even any probable sum for such a purchase, would in all likelihood be for Government to raise the market against itself. With regard to the course of alteration which was to be pursued, the lhon. member for Shrewsbury was mis- talken in supposing that all sorts of tricks were to be played with the outside of the Castle. There had been some buildings of late years added to the main structure, which were not very effective in the way of convenience, and perhaps deformities, rather than otherwise, architecturally consideredl: these were to comne down; but no haiid was to be laid upon the body of the Csstle in fact-, the bail taste of making any deviations froni the simple grandeur whic cliaracte- ised the building as it stood, was too obvious, under any circum- stances, to be fallen into. The course which was proposed was this- four architects of the first eminence were to be called upon to fur- in the view of all bis subjecbs. Hle (Afr.Bsnaet) perfeetlyremtnember. ad the effect which the sight bad produced upon him when a boy; and it had been one of the most pleasing, as well as of the most impres- .ive description. Ile did not mean to say anv thing offensive; but he thouglht that a hint should be given by Ministers in the proper quarter uipon this subject Mlr. HUME, as he could not fix a specific day, was content to n,ove the postponement of the grant in question generally. He hoped that in his division he hould have the support ot the hon. memiiber for Corfe Castle, and of the member for Wareham; and he begged to remind those hon. gentlemen that it was almost an order of the house, and certainly a maxim which they had always been in the habit of inculcating-that the hiouse should never embark in any expense withont having plans and estimates beforc it. I r. T. XVILSON thought that ministers had behaved in a very handsome way with respect to this vote. Alr. CANNING said that the terrace at Windsor was open to the public on 1undays, and they had tbe beuefit of the band of mu- sic. together with whatever amusements they could derive from the use of tAis privilege the same as in timepast; at least this was the case when he was last at Wl'indsor. It was true that it 1had not been open to the public on the other days of the week, nor could it with convenience to tle party for whose use and benefit it had been laid out; for the hon. gent. must recollect that there was not a tbot of ground about the domain to serve for a promenade exeept the ter- race, and certainly it could not be talked of as an innovation, seeing that for 10 years it had been shut up altogether, and that from cir- cumstances which no human prudence could control. Mlr. G. BENNET was aware that the terrace had been latterly open to the public on Sunday. Mr. A BERCROM BY complained of the want of a plan and of proper estisliates to satisfy that proper jealousy which the house ought to entertain with respect to any grant of the pub!ic money. A division too c place- For the resolution, . 1231 For the amendment, . 54 Majority in favour nf the vote, -69. MI1LITIA ESTIMATES. Lord PAL31ERSTON moved the first rcsolution for granting 195,5371. for charges of the disembodied militia of E^ngland. illr. IIUAE wished to kno.v how the original motion had been dispose4 of in the last resolution after the division on the amendment. MIr. BROGDEN said, that he had put the original question im- nish plans; the nature of the work wanted, anc ine amount or eX- pense allowed, being explained to them beforehand. They wvere to be shown the want ofaccnmmn.dation for the personal residenceof hisMa- jestv, and the insufficient communicAtion existing at present betweeni thc private residence and tbe state apartments; and the repairs and improvements which were necessary in the state apartments tlem- selves. They were then to be told that 300,0001. was all that could be allowed for what was to be done, and that they must frame their plans in such a manner as to lie within the scope of that atiount. owv really this (the Chancellor of the Exchequer apprehended) was the or.ly reaonable cou'rse to pu;rsue. For if architects had been set to work without any notice of what coull be paid or what was wanted eachn plan would have depended upon the accidental fancy of the gentleman who drewv it. andl so nothing like an available or definite conclusion wvould have been got at at all. Indeed, he could not but feel the mote surprised at the objection taken to thie Present vote, because the house had made no scruple of granting two sums for building last year-17,0001. to the Board of Trade, arid :4T,0001. (for the nev library) to the British Muscum-rnithout x,'vy aemsand that plans or estimates should be produced. The right honourable gcntleman sat down by stating, that as regarded the question of responsibility, there conlld be no question that all responsibility belonged to the Government. In an afrair wliich was purely a matter of taste, there would be an advantage, and he should feel it, in having opinion to resort to; but the commission was not suggested with any view to screening Ministers from blame. Blame, he anticipated none, because he had no doubt that the whole ar- rangements would be such as to meet the public approbation; but if ary blame did arise, it would be the business of the Government to meet it * arid althotugh he could not exactly agree that a Minister ought to have his head cut off, or even that he ought to be impeach- ed for such a misdemeanour as bad taste, yet, whatever reasonable consequences accrued out of the present transaction, he should be ready to take his share of. DMr. ELLICE was inclined to vote for the full and proper repair of Windsor Castle, be the expense of that repair what it miglht; but he was not convinced by the arguments of the right honour- able gentleman opposite, and he wished to have the estimate of a regular architect, before be stirred a step farther in the business. Tire honourable member then proceeded to notice the inttnded purchase of land and houses at Windsor, and wished to know whether that purchase might not be paidl for by a sale or exchange of Crown lands, instead of putting the country to expenSe, when remission of taxes was so very desirable? -le should be sorry to see any thing disposed of, which tended to the com- fort or to the splendourof the ,rown. It hadhbecn said, for instance, *'sell Kew," but hedid not like the idea of parting with out palaces or royal gardens. But the ground rents which had accrued to the Crown out of the new streets in UWestminster, the receipt of those rents shed no lustre upon the throne. Since what was called the "hereditary income" of the King had been given up for the civil list, there could be no need why the Crown should have groundl to let out to tenants; and the sale of these ground rents in Wirestrnin- ster nmight well cover the expense of the purchase to be made at Windsor. Mr. Bllice concluded hy noticing, with reference to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to architects emn. ploed, the peculiar merit of a new church vwhich had just been built at Clhcesea. A want of monty had prevented the building from being completed exactly as might have been wished; but no one could look at it witiout paying a tribute to the talents of the architect. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEOUER said, that the ground-rents to which the hon. member alluded, were not available t0 the Crown, but were paid into the Consolidated Fund. It could make no difference, therefore, whether they were sold to make the purchase at Windsor, or whether money were at once granted for reference to the interest of money; a sale nmight not be advanta- geous. WVith respect to the main qucstion, however, most decidedly ne wi-shed to see an estimate; because it might so happen that an ar- cbitcct, on hearing the sum to which he was limited, wouild say, that, to do tre work properly, that sum was not sufficient. If the right lion. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). wvould pledge himself distinctly not to embark in thc work unless he forinti the 30,0001. woultk be sufficient to complete it properly, lie (Mr. Caleraft) would give the rnioney now; but if not, lire sliould vote: for thepostponement. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could have no ob- jection to answer the bon. member's question. Of course he should say it would be extremely unwise to embark in the present business, either as regardeof Purchase or building, if architects represented that the sum of 300,0001. was insufficient to perform the work proposetd to them in the: way in which it ought to be done. No man would be riely to piunge himself into bricks and mortar, he apprehended, under such circumstances. Lord MILTON said, that as it seemed to him, the right hon. hanccior of the Exchequer must support the proposition of the hon.mTember for Aberdeen; because the right hon. genL pledged himself that he wvould not emnbark in the *ork if it should appear u~ro inqiry eat he sm alotte wasinadequate to conerplete it. Thenwhy ot ake hatsuqury a one, ad dfer irevote until en etimte ws pepaed? ertinl mnse,inrao,ought not to tke ny mno7 untl iey culdsay hattheyhadseen plans n d e m t w i c l e t e t o l v e w o u l d b e Avr. ELLICE undertoed that the pulling down of some part of AiVndOrC Cstle hadalreadysbegun. tome land,too, abouttheCas- tle, had been sold, he believed, in the late King's reign;- he dlid not know whiether it was the samne whichl we were now about to Purchase. rnnar. inIABERLY still thought that tire right honourable gentle- mlan OPYPOsite wyas bound to furnish etimates, or to take the whole responsrbility for the 300,0001. upon himself. if Government pro. ceeded without furnishin estimates they ought to take the respon- sibility most unequivocally upon th'emseives. Mllr. CANNING understood all parties to concur in a desire to further uP to any reasonable amouant, the honour andth conveaienes or'the drown. T'he question was, as to the most expedient mele of ranaging the transaction. Tites m Eig e don, certainly 6uig rY lase eimtsof e the excess whie in alnost evrn nas aos aboveeates sof shed, an uld leave the house still inor awtaeofu ucl ncdait as to what the eventual coat of thure ork would be Eey vntacewich had been quoted in the couresefthedeate , a showe o ery little the evidence of plane and stiateswanto e reliedI on. The Penitentiary and the Cale- donian Canal, which had both been alluded to, were cases in which plans end estimates had been presented, and Yet the house had gone farther theni it originally intendedl. The better urethod, as it seemed to him, of conifining tire expense within a given limnit,wol be to vote the particular su, anwev h esosbt ouGo- vernentof nt eceedng t. Whether the burden were 'greater or less, in anIy given way, upon G3overnment, the burden wan less upon the house in the way now proposed. He should certainly sup- port the Plan Of voting at once a definit sum Mr. TIERNE V said that the rig'te hsnuram. orinSertr thad only doneajstceto the gentlemen wits whom he eat, en stating tha thy wre ctuted by- a cOmmonl wish to do every thing that was necessasry fortricedigrnity and advantageof the Crown. Binttue I sIecurity which the ri6ht honoterable gentl`eman offered upon the pre. .sent occasion was such, as he (Mlr. TreTney) feared tile house could no accept; because a grant Of 1I0MAM1, accorrling to the present proposal, would appear upona the votes, and nothing at all to jusutify it. _h ih honourable gentlemen adtt 4*^punsioMty upon itself of confining the ulti- mPte expense of tbe buildings in question within 300,0001.; but how, In fact, could that be, when the right hon. Chancellor of thc Exchequer stated distinctly, that so far there was no calculation in existence upon the subject ? Surely nothing could be more easy than to make the estimates required. Therc were the repairs to b piad fori the purclhase of land and houses- and the detail of the ibf terior aiterptio!s-that was, the furniture, &c. Now the external a!tateions were mpatter of measulrement: anv architect would give tte ultimate amount without difficulty. W-ith respect to the Sand and houses purchased, no difilculty had been found in preparing gimilar estitiates in the matter of the new post-office. But here there was no estimate, no explanation given at all. Right hen. gentlemren said, " Give us 300,0001., and we will ask for no rmore ; " but what a situiation did this leave the country in, andi even tile King? The 300,0001. midght turn out to be just enough to spoil every thing that was already existing; and, in such a case, what could ministers do but come dowrn to Parliament, and say they had been imstaken; and what could any Parlia- ment o under such circuMstanmas but grant more money to complete the work? He was very sorry to say any thing which had theappearance of opposition to the vote betore the house. He wisihed much to see Windsor Castle put into a sufficient state of fitness and repair, and thought there could be no difficulty In naming an early day for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring down his estimate; but he declared that he would rather vote 500,0001. seeing bis way than give 300,0001- in the circuwstances under wlhich tTie present grant was brought forward. 1)r. BROGDEN observed, that according to the forms of the house, the amendment could not postpone the grant to any specific d, all that could be done was to move its postponement generally. Lord MIlTON only asked to have the house placed where he understood theright honourable Chancellor of the Exchequer meaHt to place himself-that it might not be caUed upon to take any 'step accompanied witb expense, until it was ascertained that the 360,000!. demanded for the work would accomplish it. Mr. G. B1,;NNET was ready to swear that part of the work at Windsor Castle had already bequn. He knew that the Queen's palace was down. He had seen it advertised to be sold (that was, the materials) last summer; and it was sold. The honourable mem- ber tben adverted to tise change which bad taken place at Windsor since the death of the late King. The Park could not be shut up, for there was a public way went tbrough it-; but even the free. dom of the Park was not g-ven as it ought to be; and the terrace, he regretted to say, was entirely shut up. IRe thought that this was bad taste, and bad juddgment in every way. Nothing .had tended more to the popularity of the late King than the freedom with .w.ich he had been used to walk upon [he terrace at %Vindsor tie concurred wltll Ills tionourable triend near him, who character- ized this as a most profligate mode of laying out the public - ^ rgd-,ni-dd li%tka,lt a i4).. ' w 4ein' the faili and discipline oftthe establishment, and whenever those means were nowr defective they ought to be fully pravided. But they ought not to be provided for by extraordinary grants of the public money. It was his intention, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer should persist in applying this "G God-send" ot' money which he truly eaUed it, considering what an honourable man the Em- peror ot Austria was in his payments, to propose another plan far more eligible in his opinion. It was a plan too of Mr. Pitt's, which ought to make it the more estimable with the house. He would propose to Jay out the 500,0001. in buying up as many rotten boroughs as the money would purchase. He was not the inventer ofthie plan-the credit was due to Mr. Pitt-but it was a very pood plan; and, unless lie deceived himself, he conld produce much better reasons in support of it than the riglht hon. gentleman would be able to urge respecting his new churches. Now if these churches, were not to be built this year, whv should the House be called upon to vote the money ? He did not know whether it would be competent iR hinm to propose such a resolation in the com- mittee. He supposed that he must give more warning, and move it as an instruction to the committee. 5Mr. J. SMITH thouglht that it was better to take objections to the measure on the question that the Speaker leave the chair than in the coinmmittee. He did not like this mode of applying the public money in the present situation of taxation. here were no petitions on the table in favour of building these four churches nor any general expression of the public sentiment requir- ing them. The public would subscribe for building their own churches readily if they coulil have any reasonable share of the con- trol and appointment of the ministers. There were in manv parts of the kingdom the most scandalous land improper struggles 'upon this subject. He did not profess to be accurately acquainted with the ecclesi. astical law of presentations, bu U rilinisters could find a remedy for this part ofthe case, they need not come toParliament for grants ofpub- lie money to build churches-the people would cheerfully tax them- selves. The dissenters of all denominations vere abundantlysupplied with chape's and ministers all over the country; surely no one would believe that the people of the establishment were less zealous on betialt' of religion. But how'could the Parliament make up their minds to apply money in this way, when they saw all around them multiplied thousands of unhappy wretches withoat education, lett to all the disorders and miseries to which such an urtaught condition was liab'e. The first duty of every government was to provide instruction for all its poor--a duty the cxecution of' which would be more pleasing to the Almightv, if ise might venture to use Suci an argument, than the building of churches. To what better use could this money be applied than in furnishing the mesns of educa- tion to thepoor ofIreland, a country torn wvith contiinual disortders for want of moral improvement and sound instruction in her popu- latiori ? At any rate he thought that he would try this proposition against that of the righst hon. gent. in the comnmittee. Sir J. N'EWVPORT begged the house to take notice of a very sin. gular anomaly between the cases of Ireland andEngland- i'hie th population of Ireland, composedofl-6thsof Catholics, were taxed for the building as well as the repairing of churches far the other sixth wlio were Protestdnt, the people of England, wlho were Protestants, were only, called on to pay, for the repairiiig 6f the churchses, and the public at large were taxed for the building of them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it was very uinusuial to take a discussion uipon the formal questio o f the Speaker leaving the ebair to go inito a conimittee uponr the very sub- ject of that discuission. Air. JAMES said, that a petition was now to 0- ,..------ - Lure, anu Would shortly be presented to the house, a -ainst this ap propriation of the public inoney. He had no doubt there would be ^any - ore oi a similar nature, paTticulaTly from thl e -l. .W^ to tne mecasure, in naone of' the besefiits_ Io IC thev were to participate. He therefore hoped the Chln- cellor of the Exchequer wouldconsent to postpone it forashort time. Mr. CANNING said, that otler oppnrtunidtes would occur for discussing this measure when it should be before thie house in the shape of a bill. Mr. H. G. BENNET complained that the estimates had only been in the hands of members eight hours, and that it was not rea. sonable to call upon the house to come to a decision on a subject re- specting which thev had so little information. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER regretted the pa- pers had not been delivered at an earlier penod. He was, however, far from wishing to entrap the house into giving an opinion which thev had not had due time to consider. Although, therefore, he had been desirous to explain to the committee the views he enter tained on this subject, he would consent to its postponement until Friday next ; and he concluded by a motion to that effect, which was carried. WOOL DUTIES. On the motion of the CRAN CELLOR of the ExCHEQUER for the second reading of the wool importation and exportation duties bill, Dir. CURTETS rose to request that it might be postponed. HIe I said he, and he believed other gentlemen, were verv much taken by surprise, for that he had never before had an opportunity of saying a word on thesubject. After theabundant time which the right 1ion. gent. had thoughit fit to give to the persons interested in the silk bill, and the opportunity they had had of being beard by counsel, he thought, that as those who were connected with the woollen trade had a much stronger claim, they were entitled to the same in- dulgence. He trusted, therefore, that the biU would nor be pressed in its present stage. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not under- stand thenatureof the hon. memlner's objections. if as heimagined, the hon. member thought the present exportation duty too high, be ought not to object to the passing of the bill, because itsintention was to reducc that duty, and if it did aot pass,the prohibition against ex- portation would remain in force. He thought, therefore, the hon. member would best consiult theintcrests oihis constituents by letting the bill go, without delay, to a second reading: and when it got into the committee, there would be ample opportunity for the dis- cassion of its various provisions. He really saw no reason for its postponement. After a few words from Lord D1rLTON, hlr. CURTEIS, Atr. Ponrtsa,z, and lIlr. USEI;ssoX ., lMr t:AI,CRAFT said, he thought no dass of men had been more mistaken respecting their own interests than the ag-nculturists, when they pressed for a duty on the iStSpoItatiorlof woo for it had Intza-iteLy -IU: -:ct UtvlsiUa as matter ut tourse aRia -i w tu un- posed of. Dlr. HU.ME thought at least that the chairman should have waited till the members had taken their seats. Mr. BIZOGDEN bezged pardon of the committee if he had been too hasty; it was an error, however, if any, into which he had been drawn by the constant cus:om of the business in committees,where, if the amendment was lost upon a division, it was always taken as a matter of course th4t the original quetion must be carried, and it was therefore put only as matter of form. The resolution was then carried, as was also a resolution for granting 91,7911. for charges for disemubotlied Irish militia. h!r. llU.M1E objected to so large an establishment of Irish mtiltia. Lord PALNERSTON said thae there could be no question in this committee as to the amount of the establishment, which was fixed by statute. Jf the lion. gent. objected to the number of the militia forces, his proper course was to get leave to bring in a bill to alter aed amend those acts by which the establishmnents were atpre- sent fixed. The CleAIRtAttN reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Fridav nexr. CHURCH BUILDING ACTS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIHEQUER moved the order of the dalv for going into committee upon the church building acts. Dlr. IlU.IE wished to know what was the nature of the resolution which the right hon. gentleman intended to prowose ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sail, that the resolution was for granting 500,0001. to be paid intn the hands of the commissioners appointed under the acts for building new churches, to be laid out by them in further execution of the powers of the said acts. MIr. HUME 6omplained that there was not any notice giv.n of this vote which could have inf6rmed any gentleman of the nature of the propositinn which it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchmequer to make. The invariable custom was, that an estimate should precede a grant *whereas in this instance there was no men- tion made of any sum of money even in the notice of motion entered on the paper by the right hon. gent. The notice given was of a reso- lution to be moved in a committee on church building acts. Mr. COIIRTENAY said, that the Chancclior of the Exchequer had given notice of a resolution in the committee, and he admnitted that he had not given notice of any specific sumn ; but after his state- ment at the commencement of the session, and the notice of the pre- sent resolution, wvliich was made a few nights ago, he put it to any gentleman in the house to say it the object of his resolution of to- night could be mistaken, or if it must not have been perfectly under- stood. Mr. 11UME was so far from anticipating the nature of the reso- lution, that lie really had been led bv the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs to suppose that the plan of building new clurches was laidl aside for thi present, because the money was to be applied to the establishment of the nrw rVest India churches. Dlr. CANNING a imitted that he had stated, as the money would not be immediately want d, that a sum equal to the interest of it for the time would he applied tothenewWest India churches, and that- Mr. HUSKISSON said that the money was not the immediate subject for the deliberation of the committee, but the subject upon which the nioliey was to be laid out. Mr. HOBHOUSE was not aware before coming down to the house of the nature of the proposition, and had been so far deceived by thle explanation of the right hon.Foreign Secretary,that he actually congratulated himself on being for the present rid of the discussion. yet fie miglit not agree that it was expedient to adopt-a new mode of levying it. As to the exception of foreign sails and cordage, it had fonnerly been made a matter of grievance that ships could not be repaired in foreigr ports, even in cases of necessity. without violating the registry laws; and it was to provide for that inconvenience that the exception had been introduced into the pre- sent bill. He did not anticipate that any inconveniencc would re- sult from it; becanse, in the first place, the necessity must be pioved . and in the second, notwithstanding the amount of our du- ties, such was the perfection of British machinery, that no- thing was more common than for foreign vessels to provide themselves with cordage in 1nglish ports. He agreed, that if the drawback were diminished, the duty on hemp ought to be low. ered, and he felt that it w&s an error in the financial policy of thc country to subject such an articlC to a heavy duty. He should be glad to reduce it as soon as possible; but it must be remembered that the alterations proposed by the bill were not to take plaee tiL January, 1825. Without pledging himself an to the extent tc which his right honourable friend meant to go, he wotuld state, thal upon every principle of justice the duty on hemp ought to be reduced in proportion to the drawback. The bdl was then committed for to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. S. WOETLEY, the order of the day on the game Laws' anendment bill coniinittee was postponed till to-morrow. On tbe motion of Mr.W. CO URTTENAY, the house resolved itsel: into a committee on the bankrupt laws' amendment bill. Mir. LOCKHART thought the present bill could not be con. veniently discussed by the house, but in conjunetion with the pend. ing bill for the amendment of theinsolvent debtors' act. Tte effecl of either of them, taken as an insulated measure, mustdbe to neutra. lize the other. Some conversation having ensued between Mr. J. SmITrse, Ir. T. WrLsoN, Dlr. COURTENAY, and AIr. J. MAMLT1N, the firsi clause was carried without a division. MIr. W. COURTENAY said, the next clause specified wha should in future be considered act; of bankruptcy in a trader. Thii was done much more definitively than it had been in former acts. After a few words from Mr. J.SsrssT and ilIr. LOCKHART, thi! clause was also agreed to, as were several others, without going to; division. The house resumed; the Chairmani reported progress and asked leave to sitagain. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and tse housi adjourned at TWELVE O'CLOCK. A LIST OF TH3 AMINORITY Of 54 who voted for postponing the Grant of ?L50,v00 for Repain in 'Windsor Castle, until Plansof the Alterations a_d an Estimat I HOUTJSE OF COMI?ONS, MAONDAY. APRIL 5.