House Of Commons, Tuesday...
The Times, 1824-05-05T00:00:00

Colonel TALBOT presented a petition from' certain tradesmen and fishermen of Skerries, in the county of Dublin, against the re. peal of the fish bounties. 4 MEsBEgR whose name we could not learn presented a petition from the brewers of Dundee, against any altcration of the law re- garding beer, Mr. D. GILBERT Presented apetiton from Penzance, in favour of the countv courts bill. Mr. DE]>-.MAN presented a petition from the barristers of the Palace-Court, against the county courts bill. and praviag that some compensation may be made te them in case it be passed mto a law. Sir R. HERON presented a petition from certain journeymen at Newark, against the combinanon laws.-Referred to the committee upon artisans Petitions wsere presented in favour of thehides and skins bill from the butchers of NVolverhainpton, Cupar in Fife, Peterborough, C.rlisle, &c,; and against it from the tanners of Liverpool, Nor- wich, and some other places. Mlr. K. DOUGlIAS presented a petition from the commissioners of supply and the land-owners of the county of Dumfries, relative to the state of the spirit duties in Scotland. Mr. BYNGpresented a petition from certain laudholders of Mid- dlesex, against the further continuance of the salt duties. Air..LEYCESTER complained of the unequal operation of these duties, which pressed with great severity upon the agricultural la- bourer_.-The petition was laid on the table. Mr. C. EiLIlSON presented a petition from the ahip-owners of South Sbields, praying that sea-borne coals should not be subjected to a greater duty thian was levied on coals conveyed by any other species of catrrage-Jid on the table. Mlr. LOCKHART presesited a petition from the tanners andcur- ders in the neighbourhood of Oxford, against the hides and skins bilL_Referred to the committee on the said bill. Mr. LITTLETON moved for a retuxn of the duties received, anidthe drawbacks aid gasipre no and exported from Gret Bitan, romtheyea 188 t th yer 824, distinguishing Mr.3. F.O NE resnte a etiionfrom-tbe lana-owners and linenmanuactuers f thecouny ofMayoagainst the repeal of thie WHEAT 'WAREHOUSING BILL. AMr. CURTEIS presented a petition from, the owners and occu- Piers of land in the neighbourhood of Wickham, in the county of Suffolk, against the bill "ibfr peramittineg flour to be substituted for foreign wheat secared in warehouse." The hon. member deprecated the measure as one that was likely to operate prejudicially to the landed interest. He did not approve of any alteration in the laws respecting cbrn; and if attempts of that description were made, tue present, instead of being a very short, would, he was satisfied, be a most protracted session. Sir T. LETHB3RIDGE said, that when the right bon. gentle. man (Mlr. HuRkisson) first announced his intention of introduceing a measure of this kind, lie had intended to give it his sup-~ port : hutt, after mnature consideration, anid having consulted those persons whom the bill was likely to affect, he had changed his opinion. He hoped the right hon. gent. would pause before he pro- ceeded farther with the mneasure. Alr. HU3IE said, the two hon. mermbers who had expressed their hiostility to the bill seemed to have mistaken its nature. The mea- sure wvas intendedl to authorize the taking of corn out of bond for the purpose of having it grud, ad replacing it with flour. By this means one branch ofoucmerce, that of cArrying flour, would be considerably increased. The alarm which some inidivi- duals felt on this Subject was wholly, groundless. Notwithstanding the ominous threats of the opposition of the landed interest (whohad at present proection enough), he hoped the right honourable gentle- mau ..ul cry the bill through the house, and thus extend the coinisaerce of the country. Sir J. WVROTTE$LEY said, if the bill were really such as the honourable member had described it to be, he certainly would not oppose it. The mneasure would have the Okobt of thirowing a large quantity of musty sour flour into the market, while thec good sweet wheat was laid up in store. The greatest mischief cosisected with t'he trade ini corn wias, th, constant tampering ith the laws by, whichl It was rexllated. 'This he conrideredi to be a measure of that descriptiona therefora it ought to be narrowly watched. 4,.51r CIPPSsai, te bI~would nsot have the effect coatem- platd b th ho. bront, bt jst he evese,Somie years ago, whenthi sujectwasbefre te huse 110advsedthat thLis foreigns wheatshoul be gt rid of. If h1rooitnhad then been at- tende to,this orn ould' haybenetou of the country, andthee oul hae eennonecssiy or hepresent measure. HIe 'would say-,' Use eeygadan oato to prevent this flou-r from comning into our w akt u e tot of the country as sonsipissbl.1 Mr. HSKISSN would ask the honourable meniber (Mtr. Cureis whthe itwas the meet convenient mode of proceed- ing, o debte aHI not yet grinted on the presentation of a peti- tion (Har. Hewas sorry t at the hon. member made it a cus- tom onbrigin uppetitions, to comimence a debate on the measures to hic thy rlaed, instead of waiting u,ntil those measures had rivd a th prperstage. Having made this remark, he woudd not ayasnglewordon the merits of the bill. Ir .1R'N said it was his intenition to oppose the measure. Mlr. T. WILSON observed, that the measure was of a partial na- ture. It would operate as a boon to the importers of' corn prior to 1822, but would not af'fect those who had iroported wheat since that period. KSir T. LETHBRIDGE inquired whether the righit hon. gentle- man meant to miove the second reading this evening ? Air. H USKISSON said, that as the bill was not yet printed, he would not mnove Ol,li second reading to-night. The petition was laid on the table. iMr. CURTEIS presented a petition from the butchers of Stocek- port, in Cheshiire, and also from the butchers of Leadenhall-mnar- leet, in favour of the hides and skins hill.-Referred to the commit- tee on the bill. Lord E. SOMERSET preented a petition from rMinchianghamp. ton, in the county of (ilocester, against the Bristol port dues. OR NDRLAD SOCIETlS Mlr. J.' SMITH said, he rose to present a petition fromsa body of pers.,ons inlIreland, whovery rarely dared to a oach that house with astateMentofthe,rgrrevances. Theclasslhea~'urdedto was tlatof the farmiers and peasanitry. The object which they had in view was a most proper one. They caime forward to complain to that house of the existence of certain societies in Ireland denominated "1 Orange- men" and"1 Ribsadmnen," both of whom, by their constant feuds anid animosities, interfere with the peace and tranquillity of that un- fortunate country, and created perpetual riots and disturbances. They represented, that welL~disposeti persons, who wished to have nothing to do with eithier faction, were compelled, whiether they would or not, to become parties to their procesions. They had not thiemeans of resisting and preventinigthis tyranny. The pettioners observed, that Parliamient had interfered to prevent the adimltsixtra- lion of. illegal oaths, by the Orangemoner, perhaps -unfortunately; since, in consequesee of that measure, the Orange lodges had a,ssumed somnething of' a legal chiaracter, and had becomie more numecrous than ever they were. It, appeared from the state- ment of the petitionRers, that wherever an Orange-lodge was forrmed, a Riband.lodge was auto to sprin~ up in the same neighbourhood - the one uniformily and necessarily produced the other. He was sor o osee the Secretary of Stafe for Foreign Affairs in his plc; eaue few yeairs ago, when a proposition was made on tthis subjecl by the right lionourabole gentleman who niow filled the situation of President of the Board of Control, but who then sat on that (the Opposition) side of' the house, the right hon. Secretary pronouinced a very strong opinion with respect to those societies in Ireland. IVith that eloquence for which he was so reniarklable, he condemned thieir factious and irritating proceedings. He met the observations of those who defended such associations on the ground that they were necessasry for the support of the Government of lre- land, by reprobating themi as altogether unfavourable to goodl go. vemment. If an inoyiry were instituted, lie (IM r. Smith) had at doubt it would be found, that a great portion of the evils which af- fected Ireland, wl Sh pisoe hrp!tnS.,rgheJ& ro petuion which he~ was now about to present was signted, writh the ex- ception of two or thiree gentlemeni, solely by farmers and labourers resident in the county of WVestrmcath. Ife never before knew indi- viduals of that description daring to approach Parliam-ent withi a statemnent of their wrongs: but lie declared, that hLe felt more sas. tisfaction in laying the comrplaints of' those injured persona before Parliamnent, than he shouild experience in presenting sany netition, even though it bore the signatures of persons of the greatest r-,nk and consequenice. HeI, for one, never felt inore sincere pleasure than when he w,as presenting petitions froin this class of individuals to that house, lie did not see the right honourable secretary for Ire- land in his place, hut he trusted that that right hion. gent. would take sonic notice of' thlis petition; and he hoped it was the in- tention of his AMajesty's Governmient in Irelanid, so far as lay in their power, to suppres all political societies in that country. He knew not whethier, eventually, he should bring this subject forward, but he certAinly, had it in his contemiplztion 'to psopose somne mea- sure to Parlianient w-ith respect to thoselassociations. The mischiefs which arose from thetn hiad been described by nio mean authority. Thcvy had heardi of them from the bench of justice---they had been told, in explicit terms, that owing to their operation there was no longerr pam, and tranquiUlity in Ir'ehanti. Sir J. 8NE POItT said, it gave Ihim, in comioni with his hon. f'riend, very sincere pleas~ure to find persona whio did not often appear before that hiouse, coming forward and comiplaining of the evil whichi arose from the collision of those liostile associations. Lie had agaiin and again called the attention of the house to the fatal consequences to the gotid governiment of Ireland which were occ-a- stoned by allowing associations of this nature to exist. It was quite uianifest, that while societies were ksuffered to exist, in whiich politi- cal feelings were coupiled with certain religious tenets, they miust, of nepcessiy give rise to associations, the miembers of which entertala- edrigostenets of an opposite nature; and the collision of thos hostile factions niust be subversive of the peace of society. It was quite clear thlat the rank and consequence of the individuals who were~ at tdie head of those associations, aftbrded no guarantee for the good and peaceable conduct of those who enrolled themnselves; under their banners. It was idle to say, that one of those associations was anxious top reserve good government in the country, while the other was opsdt t hr couid be no good governmsent in that country, untla n a u to such associations altogether. The peace adtnqilyofhe country called loudly for their extinction. Tesse,a i hon. friend had truly-stated, had been denounce rph ec of justice. In the course of the last circuit, a judge calle onte gen- tlenmen of the grand jury to attend him. HIe said, he ha efrestated to them that, if they gave couintenance to one association, it would produce another association of- a diff-erent character. Hfis woods, he observed, were now veritted, and it was the duty of the gentry to put an end to both, He (Sir J. Newport) would say, that the Go. vernmnent of thte costntry ought to put an end to theta. Thley ough to see that public 1-unctionaxies, persons holding situationtk ppder Government, were not the governors, directors, or patrons of any political associations whatsever. Now he would ask, wAs not the contrary the case at thtis moment,? lMd not nien. hoding high office publish in the newspapers that they were grand masters and deputy grand masters of'(range lodge3? Couldwte public be- lieve tmat the Go '- ye lt~ent were in earnest, when they allow- ed those in office un or them to act so inconsistently as to p lace themselves at the head of such factious societies? (Wear, hear,) It was futile to think that the public could place contidence irn the promises of G*overniitent while they perrift- to(ilsucsia proceeding. It was necessary for the good ordet and well- being of' the country that the systemi should be changed ; and it war idie to suppose that capital would be transferred to Irelana, and that the popular feeling would subside into a ~mappy state, while every of'. fost was made to tset the people agga~at each other, on accoDunt of spe- culative religious tenets. (Hear.) The petition, which was from certain inhabitants of Castle- tow Devin an oherplaes,in hecountY of' Westmeath, was the bougt p ad ead Te ptiioers ca~dW on the house competey t ebdishin relad al tose P'rotcstant associations, calld Oang-loges andallthoe Cth?lieassociations whicli have bee avwedy fenedi oposiioptothem.-Laid on the table, Mr, kIUSKISSON presented a petition from the comnmon brewers of the town of 14iverpool, against the new beer bill. He also pre- sented a petition fromt*he tanners o1f liverpool, against the hides and skins bill; from the butehers of Liverpool in favour of it; and from the stocking weavers of Glasgow, against the combination lAws, Lord F. OSI&ORNE presented a petition from the do,rneyrpe shoemakers of Camnbridge, against the combisatjon laws.-eferred t.o the-comqmittee on those laws. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented a petition from Castle-Carey, praying for a repeal of tbe assessed taXes.-Laid on the takble. I'lr. AlABERLY presented petions from the tanners of Can- terbury, Abingdos and Brighton, against the hides and skins bilL Also a petiion from Datnsouth, against the house and window tax. The hon. gentleman further uostponed his motion with respect to the assessed taxes, to sscoaday next, the 10th of May. DIOC'ESAN SCHOOLS IN iREl;lAND. Sir JOHN NEWPORT presented a petition from the gentle. men and clergy of the diocesa of Ross, coimplaining that a school, maintained heretofore at Ross Carberry, had been removed, and united to another school at Cork. There had been, untillatel-, two diocesan schools in the bishiopric of Cork and Ro3s, one at Cork and the other at ltoss Carberry. The Ross Carberry school, how- cver, wIIS now abandoned, and its funds united to those of the school at Cork. The clergy in the district of Ross had petitioned the Lord-Licutenant of Ireland, who said that the change was made by order of the Board of Education. A second petition was then preo sented to the Board of Education oan the subject; but the answer of the Boarti was u singular an3wer enough-that, as the act had been done by themselves, they had no power toreverse it. Mr. L. FORSTER defended the condtuct of the Board of Edu- cation, and said that schools could n,ot continue to be maintained where the allowance for masters did not afford a livelihood. The commission, however, which was now forming would have an op. portunity of revising the state of the schools in Ireland generally. Sir J. NZWFPOIT objectedto consolidating schools for the sake Of giving large salaries to masters. Wherever a mnster Zad large -salary it mnade him eareless 'abou-t obtaifning- priv pa ils Mnfr GOtILBURN said, that the Bo0ard of Education hatd e the opinion of the Attorney-General of Ireland, and were inifomed that, having united the two schools in question, they had no Power again to disunite them. The fact was, as to the school at Roms, that thesalry f te mste, adedby heprofit whichi was made by~ takng iivte upis, nd venby he tipend of a sinecmre plac, he hed in he Cahcdra, wasinsuficiet for his maintenance and he ws copelldtogve i up.Theestablishment had th~erefore bee trnsfrr o Crk,whee eucaionwas in more reasonable Sir J. NEWPORT said, that a gentlemnan might have been found who was ready to carry on the school at Ross. .VIn'e he was on his legs, he begged to ask the right honourable gentleman oppo. site, when the new commission talked of was likely to corme into oper-ation? He had a regret to make this inquiry, because, in con. temlatorsofItsappinten, h-ha gienup e motion of his own ?~lr GOUBUR sai tht, fr te school at Ross, a gentleman caryin iton t saaryof 001 ayear had been ruined; and thesane idiidul hd fun itanser oen a school in Cork witout any salary at all. With respec tote commnission, it would not now be long -before the appointmuent contemPlated would be complete; andi he believed that the selection woLxld be such as to give general sr4yfaction. Alr. PEEL said that the delay had only been such as was neces. sary to ensure an efficiert appointment. NEGRO SLAVERY. Mlr. G. SMI1TH presented a petition from M1onk Wearmouth, praving for the abolition of negro slavery. Sir J.NEWPORT presented a petition from Waterfordi, against the ' din of foreign wheat. IlrH M presented a petition from the county of Forfar, against th beer duties. Also a petition from the mechanics of Alanchester and Saltown, against:tbe combination laws. Also apel. tition from the butchers of Newgate-market, in favour of the hiacs and skins bill. Lord BELGRAVE presented a similar petition from the but. ch?rs of Cheater. Air. DIONCK presented al similar petition from the butchers of Reading. Also a petition from the parishioners of St. George's in. the East, against rhe continuance of the salt duties. ColonelI TRENCH presented apetition from G. D. Weight town clerk of Cambridge, conmplaining of the loss which he 'was lilely to- incur fromi the county courts' bill, and praying for compensation. The hon. member gaye notice, that on Friday next he would move that the petitioni be referred to a commnittee of the whole house. Lord BELGRAVE presented a petition from the town of Al.. tringham, against nero slayery. Ar. ABERCHO BY presented a petition from 4,5'00 me- chanics of Edinburgh against the combination laws.-.R.eerred to, the mechanics' commnittee. Also a lretition fromi thie inhabitanits of Youghal against any alteradqfn in the laws relative to foreign corn. Lord ALTHORP presented a petition from the inhabitants of Manchester. in favour of the county courts bill. Lord A. HAM1ILTON pres,ented a petition fronm the freebolders of the county of Lanark, praying for an alteration in the distillery, laws, which prevented them from bringing theirspirits into the Eng- lish market oat the same advanitageonaconditions, as the Iiish spirits. The CfIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that the case of the Scotch distillers deserved consideration. For the state of the law no blame could attach to him ; it was as he bad found it, and all that he could do would be to effect a gradual alteration. The subject was fLul of difficulties, and lie could promise no relief this session. H e had made some little progress in the arrangements of a measure which was likely to give complete satisfaction in the end; and all that he prayed of the house was, that he might not be7 precipitated into the adoption of any crude, ill-digested, and insuffi- cient measure of relief. Alr. C. HUTCHINS ON said,that the Irish distilers considered that the act of Union had been violatedlin their case; because, against the spirit and intenition of that act, they were comnpelled to submit their article to the treatmnent of the rectifier bcfore it could be admit- ted to the use and consumption of the British Lnarket; thereby mnaking it not an Irish, but an English commodity. This was par- ticularly hard. because the English raw spirit was a poor article, which could not be usedI without undergoing a process by the rec- tifier;- whereas the Irish raw spirits was an excellent article, which they hiad been in the hahit of drinking for centuries, and which they hoped to be able to drink in its purity, for cent-uries to come. ri. D. BROWNE said a few words. Mr. HUME wished for a measure which would admit the Scotch spirits into the market on the same terms with the Irish. Air. MABERLY did not know why there should be any distine- tion of duties on ispirits at all. liord A. HAMLILTON thought that the right hon. gentleman opposite ought to allow him and his hon. friends to introduce a tem- porary measure for adirdtting the Scotchi spirits on the same duties with the Irish, till the measure of the right lign, gent. was ready. Mr. J. WILLIAMIS wished to know if the Chancery Comnini- sion was inistructed to report their evidence to the houtse? MUr. PEEL said that they had receivedl no dlirect instructions. Mlr. GOULBURN gave notice, that on Thursday uiext he would move for a committee to take into consideration the state of thie counties in Ireland where the insurrection act had been enforced. EMIPLOYMIENT OF THE IRISH POOR. Air. W. L. MABERLY, in mnoving forthe house toresolve intoa committee to consider of an addlress to the'Crown noon the employ- ment of the pooQr in Ireland, bestpoke the favour arid indulgence of the house. He disovwned any political miotive-he had niothing to allege against the ministers of the Government. The evils 'which Ireland suffered were particular.Witli the same laws, customs, andl manners with the English, there wvere moral causes which mnade them diffe-raltogether. The most prominent cause of these calamities was to be fournd in the redundancy of the population-not that it was too great for the capabilities of the soil, but it was far too, great for the means of employment. It was not for himt to say hat as-he primary cause of this redundancy., Some ascibe itto he otto,il,-,,. "' .y .ccuraeol- e believed Li~L te jopsatub oul b reundntif the food were wheat or ay tinghighr; houh h coud radiy amit that a popuxlation whih wth otaoeswassevn mllins,woud ot have exceeded withwhet aovethre orfou milios. ut from the dispropor- tin of population and employment, the popoulation became degraded and base-fit instrumeit, for factious and designing mnen;, so that whatever existed there as a local grievance speedily became a sub- ject for general revolt ; and the country always laboured between starving and insurrection. The only remedy lett, then, 'was, to repress the population by increasin~ the capital, andl iupply- ing the mueans of employnient. 'lo0 thie misgovernment of ire- ln, and to the want of emnployment for its population, all teevils under which it labotired might justly be attributed. The Ironourable inember then proceeded to quote in support of this assertion, the evidlerice given beibre a conimittee of that house, by the hon. member for Alayo (Mlr. Brown), and by Mir. Owenz tire latter of whom stated, not only that thecre was -no disturbance where the people where employed, but also, that in those places where disturbance prevailed, they had c-eased upon emiployment be- ing furnbished. The hon. member alluded also to the evidence of Air. GTiffiths, in a report made to tire Irish Government, who stated the "1inmprovement, whichl had been effected in the circum- staneces of certatin labourers, who had been furnished with suffcient tools, tire value of whicht they had repaid by instalments, fromn be- ing able to earn only fromn 4d. to6fd. adayL, thev' now earned from lOd.. to Is. Was it not, then, he asked, die duty of Government to inter- fere, and by the means ofecertain encouragement to induce manufac- turers; to embark, their capitals inlIrelan)d, who without somesuch inducemnent would never do so? It miiglit be objec-ted to him that thlis measure was opposite to all the rules of'political econo- my ; but it was hiighly illogical to draw s,uch an inference fromn a science, thie rules of whichi were subject to constant exceptions. It would rather become the hiouse to look at the existing state of Ireland, and to draw their deductions from facts, the tiuth of which could not be gainsaid. The two branches of comrmerce in which the ecopleoflreland might be most profitably employed were--first, thgshenies; aid seconidly. the cultivation of flax. The southern, andl western coasts of Ireland possessed almost inexhaustible banks of fishi; btit although, from those coasts bring open to the Mlediter- ranean, great advantages were presented to them in. sending their produce to Catholic countries, where thie consumption of fish was very large, they were unable to avail1th.emselve8 of. tose advantages, tfroml their want of capital, and their ignLoranace of the principles of commerce. He (Mlr. illaberly) had tak-en pains to procure returns relative to the growth of flax fromi Holland, Flanders, and Russia ; and he hiad uniformly founid, upon comparing them with those. furnished by thesouth of Ireland, that the balance was considerably in favouir of thelatter. The flax could be growni much cheaper there than elsewhere-the ditty was so small, ~lat it was almost a non- existing quantity ; and thie manufactured 1were able to consume all the mnaterial they produced. Hie m-ight be asked, after this state- maent, how it was that Ireland did not avail herself of these ad- yantages ? His reply was, that she could not do so, as wvell for want of the necessary skill as for want of capi tal. It was to sup., ply these wants that he was aLbout to pr~opose the advance on the part of the Governmenit of so much capita aswol excite the dor- mnaRt faculties of thoee who were moat interLsted in the welfare of Ireland, and wmquid at once encourage others to v4zaturetheir property4 and to appliy that skill which was necessary to the success of the ma- nufaqc~irrs. Embarrassed as the landea gentlemen of Ireland were known to be,it'was very-probable thatsome otthem would endeavourta makeuse of thisadvance for the purpose of redeemingtheir imorigagas., and preferpayingasmall interest to the Glovernment, than thelargein.. tereatwith which their ineumbrances were alreadly charged. It was thierefore his intentiou, as well to prevent this evil as to avoid that other of thepoliticaliafiuencewhichmightbee-xercisedbymneansof suchad.. vances, to propose thatt inspectors should be appoinited, and that pe. salties should be provided for all misapplicatins of the fund. De alluded tothse benefit which had already been derivedfromn the chari- table loans which the Government hand made in Ireland, and which had proved powerful incentives to good conduct. It was imnpossible to mention amore sitriking instanceot' the good which niightbe hoped to reult from theextension of manufacturesin Ireland than this--that wherever the linen manufactures had already been establishedi, quxiet and moral habits seemned also ta have takten'rGot, and all the advan- tae ywhich industry was uzsually aceompanied had been expe- rincd y the peopleZ of the neighbourhood. He concluded by moving, "That t he house do now reslve itself into a cosmmittee Mr&jesty, prying that he will be ple7ased to grant the advaqee of a sum n ot exceeding one million, to be distributed by way of loan, for the troploymnt of the poor a-Ad the encouragement of manufac- turesin theprovinces of .unster and Connaught, and that Com_ mnisaloners be appointed to carry those objects into effect." Oa the question being put, The CH ANCBLLOI of the EXCHEQUER bore testimon, to the manner in which the honourable member had brought this motion bef-re thie house, as wel as to the publi? spi- rit which had actuated him. No one who knew any thing ,of the situation of Ireland could refuse to admnit, that al- though its climate was most happy, its soil exceedinglyfertile, and its people vigorous and spirited, yet, that with all these out;vard qualities, which should contribute to its prosperity, there were cer_ tain internal circumstances in its constitution that defeated the pro- m.ise which was held out. There was no object to vwhich the atten- tion of Parliament bad been mnore earnestly directed than the ame. lioration ofthe condition of Ireland; and the utmostreadiness would, he was sure, be evinced to comply with any measure that should be likely to acco4nplish it. Partaking, as he did, of this feeling it was with great regret that he could not adolt the siggestions of the hon. gentleman's Proposition. It was true that ParliameDt had on rnany occasions called ot the public to advance money for purposes of local improvemrent. Two instances of tlis hadoccurred in Ireland. One where a sun) had been placed at thedisposal of the Lord-Lieute. nant, to be advanced without any view of repayment; the other where it was expectedthattbeaevancea wouldhereturned. Thehouse sould agree, with re'ard tothefrrstof these,thathowever desirableit mi.ht be t afford relief in times of particular pressure, yet that suciheleemnosynarybottnty could be justified by nothing but cases of overruling necessity, which set all principle at defiance. He did DOt apprhcad that the hion. gnt. propo6ed any loan should be made WitbOUt~a rospectofriel4Yirient; but he (the lsaucelloroftbeExche. quer), altsough ha had of ten been a party to such loarns as that now P?rpoed, bad always doubted the policy of them, and partic.ilarly wi . egrd to Ireland. His doubts arose from the anxiety he felt that Irelansidhould bne permanently benefittedt, and that nothinp shbould be done which, althouglh it mig.ht aflhrd temporary advan- tage, -ould be succeeded by disappointmient, Ilie fear'ed that i' grants ofthis srt were lavished from the public parse, thiet would. instead Of inducing Irish gentlemen to trust to tneir o-vr resorcesand exertionts for rousing the eneris o h ceounrce, and reivn thir eas abofvth countryandmen liwving isinhabitants, encourage the belief tha Gove'n"entwoud, n eeryoccasion, keepthihedabv wvater. This fatal' error appeared inseparable from the pro. jeee. It was impossible always to go on ; andl vhen the systesi shGuld ternminate, t'he objects of this bounty, of Parliamient wouild bi foud icpbeo making an exertion for their own good. Witi regrdto hepratialpart of the honourahle gentleman's plan, hii (th Cancllr o te Ewechequer) did not exactly understand is whatway t wa proosed to apply it to the fisherics. He Cthe Chan- cetlo of he E eh )wsntpeae o a htteojc i ny (not maintaining themn) was objection able ut fr thi purose te su propsed as clarlyton) large ~.su of ,OOO or6.00.wsanllexnddb thie Lord .tiietenat inbuiling smal ir,adtomn ahusa flshin1 Stations. These were wokIhc h idvdascud ano do for thiemselves, and to wvhich, therefore, the publicmoe 'was very reasonably atpplied. The objection now so commion witl respect to TIreland, of want of security, was the cause which pree vented capital frlom flowing in the same channels as in Eng- land, Bult as, even in parts whbere this Objection did not apply, cort as grown in Preference to flax, the inference from whictl miust ne~ c-`Ssarily be, tnat flax could not be produced at so cheap a rate a at so great a profit as other agricultiiral produce. At least it nmis be admnitted that itwa deAirable Parliamient should not interfer inledingmone, unless it was absolutely necessary; and if the con trary should he insisted on,I he should feel it hiis duty to oppose thi Proposition. He had notthiought it necessary to press isis objection at length, nor v~ith any warmtht. Parliament hadl already appliet Itself earnestly to the relief of Ireland by the reduction of taxation sod by the renioval of the restrictions by which commnerce hiad beet affcted. The character of these measures was, that they could do rt harns,, while thle inevitable inference of practical eceperience was., tha they would do great ultinsate good. No circumnstanc~eshlad been s tate. to Prove to the house that the meassire which was now proposed pos sessed either the one or the other of these qualities:- its necessity wx quite as doubtful. The relief which it would afford mnust be temporar2 and delusive, and the house would probably be caltet upon two or threi Ylears hence to persis~t in the system they woulcl have sanctioned aind which every year it would becoime rnore dlsfficult to abandon Under this view of the case, he thought it much more advisabli that the house should decline to enter uponi it, and he therefore con, cluded by moving the previouis question. Mr. MABERLY, in explanation, said, that it was hiis intentiot thatthemony (houd Prlimen cocur with bsis motion) shoulh be avaned ot erey t on brnchof manufacture, but to ever3 brachwhi'f mihtappy or t,givnggood security. Hewouldalsa giveit t th encuraemen ofthe ishry. Lord ATH OR said thatwithot going into a detail of th4 caues hic prducd te dstrsse inIreland, he would mentior one cause, whichi would not be denied-it was the want of capital.- and under such circumstances every encouragemenit should be giver to produce a flow of capital towards that country. Hle woulc not saY that tlsis would be an exception to the general rule, that capital shouldl not he forced into a channel to whirl it would isaturaUvy flow. The fact was, capit:d had been forced ou: of Ireland, and by the system svhich had tinfortunatelv been adlopt. ed in that mry encouragement was given) to the flow of capita' to any pla", r. ther than to that part of the empire. He shoult therefore w1hrto see an alterationi in the system, and an encourage. assent held out for the investment of capital where its applicatior Zaights be productive of so many advantages. There wats, in Iii! o(ptoton, no weight in the objection of his right honourable frienm (the Chancellor of the Etcchequer),.-that if capital was ad. wvancedl to the people of lreland in the way proposed,i would induce them to dlepend ratlher on GoVernment titan or their own resources. Tue fact was, they had no resources on whsicl' they coHld depend, nuless they Were aided by Government in &osm such way as was now suggeste'd. Ireland he looked upon to be in the condition of a farm which was very ricds, but out of condition. To render suchi a farm p~roductive, the application of capital wat~ necessary; atid the skilfui farmier wouldi not consider the presetit ex- pense of bringing it into condition as monev lost, confident that ul- timately the result must be highily profitable. In the semi way should Ireland be treated at the present moment. Al" taxes on consumption shouldl be removed, and every me- thod atlopted to reader living as cheap there as in an' other part of thle wrorld. In a country wisere labour was so cheap. living might, with a very little present sacrifice on the part of Eng' land, be made cheaper iii IrelanIst than in anothier part of the British' dominions. If that were effected, people wlionow resorted to foreig-n countries for cheacp living would spend their mnoney in a country where the necessaries and many of the luxuiries of life might be pro- cured at so che-ap a rate. He worild not trouble the house farther ott the question than to say, that he cordiatlly a provred the principle ol the imotion, andI that he had not hiard, in t~ e speech of' the right isonourable gentleman, anything to induce himn to alter that opinion. Mry. J. SAITI' sadtathiad never heard the riglit honour- able gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) so weak in his arg-uments, or so little eloquent in itis mode of uirging them, as on the presnt occasion. This he attributed to the difficulties in which the tight honlourable gentleman must have found himself in his op. position to tise proposed measure. He was willing to give the right honourable gen tlensan credit for the goodness of Isis intentionos and the liberality of his views towards Ireland, but on tie present aeen. sion he thought that his views were quite miistaken. The suaie objectiton whtch he liad urged to the Proposition of hi,~ lion, friend was, that it wouild he encouraging the Irish people It look up toGovernmen-t, and not totru,st to their own resource!s. Let the house see what had been the eff~ct of similar adlvances in thit cau11tiry. lHe (Mr. J. pimith) was at the present moment a conmmis- sioner under an act of Parlfament for granting advances of Piublic mnoney for the building of bridiges, the making of roads, and other weorks.. The monev war given on good security, and s'oms to a coti. siderable amount had beens so grantcri. Ile had on a former occa- sion been a commissioner under a similar act of Pairliamenst, but he would ask, had it ever beeni heard that such ad. vances had produced in the people of thits country a, dhis. position to depend on Governnient rather than on their own resources ? Why no,, thern, advance money to Irelandl in asimihas mnanner ? Ireland deservrd much from thiis country, andI she had ,received hut little, It was true we lhad most materially assisted het insa time of scarcity (hecar), for whicii slue was truly gratefutl - but we were boundt to tdn more than that. If, as he haa observed, pub- lic money hail been advanced with good effect in England to carnv on secveral works, why might not himnilar results be expected frorii ximilar advances in Irelanid ? Hle hawl seets thi.~ good effect of such advances in many parts of this country. Ilie knew n riany indivi. duals who were gentleman of fortuine nowv, whio were not gentlemen of fortunre before such advances were matde, lie could not see, therefore, any weight in thle objectioll of thie right hon. gentlemnan against the proposition. If{e had an opportunitv oh knowingv the good effects. whiih had already beeni proattecld in Ire- land, by ihe loans advanced by the Londlon As-ociation for thie ad- vance of' money by way of loan for the encouragemnent of agricot. ture in Ireland. Sma~ll sunis had been andvasnced to nsany intlivimlu- alm for the purchase of implemients of industry ; or, what was the vame thing, those implemetits had beets supplicel to thent to be paid for by instalments, whech instalrsents he could sitate were regularly p aid ; and so far fromn having the effect of niaking the peeple look to Governmenit as their only resNource, sticti advances in- duced them to depend rather on theeffortsof their own industry, wher, they round how productive it had been tesatle to them. Allusioti hadi .been made by his honourable friend to a Romian Cathiolic clergv'nsan in Ireland.'Ilie M.%r. Smith) could state, (and it was a farther proof of the benctit wlhich might tie expected from the advatnce of small sums for the encouragesnent of industry), that lie had in the course of last year received a letter from Mr. Duigg-an, a Romnan Catholic clergy;anar of AMoyarda (webelieve), in the county of Clare, in which it seas stated tfiat there were then 124 fishing boats, be- Ion ong to persons in his parish, which were rendered whiolly use ess by the inability of the parties to fit thetii out. The reve- -rend gentleman (thazi whomi a better man di(I not exist, if he might judge from his indefatigable exertions for the relief of his poor partshioners) stated this fact, and added, cli-at in consequence of the want of funds, these boats had not been used from May to the month of October. Though he head not asked for money, 1001. were sent to hiint ; and by a judicious applicatiots of 62-1. of it, he en- abled the owners of those boats to fit them out, and thereby pro- vide a subsistence for .380 persons who lied been depending on tiseiis for support. Waz not this, he would ask, a proof of the efficacy of those advances ? He wvould assert, thlat unless we changed the sys- tem which had been adopted towards Ireland, there were events in prospect, which, if they did occur, might he taken advaitiage of by floreign Powers and which wou!dl render Ireland a source of ati- noyance, instead of being, as slite might be made, a prop and support to thi-scountry io time of neeti. Mr. 00ULBURN observed, that after whiat had been already stated on this subject, it would not be necessary for him to take up much time in his remarks. The hon. member (AMr. J. Smith) lied Observed, that his riglit honourable friend (the Chancellor of' the Exchequer) had not been as eloquent oni this occa- -sion as on otherk ; and he hail attributed it to the mode of argument he had adopted. His right hon. friend hadl ex- pressly stated his readiness to concur in any measure which might be suggeste favourable to the interests of Ireland, but he did not think that the present was one of that description. For: his (Mr. Goulburn's) -own part, he would say, that it wouldI give him the greatest satisfaction to be able to state on his return to that c-ountry, that he had procured from Parliament, or assisted in procuring, a grant of a million of money to be applied for the en- couragemnent of Irish industry, and he would most cordially concur in the Proposition, if he thought it was likely to be attended writh such beneficial results as had been stated, It was but j'ustice to thie rstLodLeentofIlado stae, hat~-,~vadisoseto carry such ameasure into effect, and tht ad.d it as far u.s it was practircable ; but he was obliged to discontirP it, when it was9 ascertained that it was not attended w7ith the re.'nlts which had been anticipated, or with any good result for the grnera ~v ~o h n Tryeo grant ing rumsrof 1rneJ. Smit) bd satd,anthatgetsfhad assun fThelo.ripe M.J by way ot soap, soc carrying on particular works in England, bnt ij the bon. member had read a little farther into the acts of Parlia- mnent, he would have found, that at the time 1,000,0001. had been granted for such purposes in this country, the sum of 5000 0tll. had been advanced for a similar purpose in Ireland. This was not intended as a permanent system of Government, but as a temporary expedient ti meet particular emergencies. Indeed, tor a certain period, scarcely a session passed, in which particular sums had not been so applied It was also enacted as an encouragement for the application of capit tal to works in Ireland, that any person who should emnbark his capital in public works in that country, should be allowed the inter. eat on that capital for a certain number of year.s. It might now be -worth while to inquire what had been the result of those ad. vances. One grant had been applied as advances for the cencouragement of trade and manufactures. Af'ter soune timc a commission was appointed to inquire into the effect of -those advanccs. The commission consisted of wen above all suspicion-men of the highest character fbr integrity and impar- fality-mcn of different religions, but of no political parties: by hese it was represented to Government, that they considered, un- der all the circumstances, the adivances or loans to be working ra- tber an injury than a benefit to the country-that those to whom the loans had been advanced, and who were most anxious in seeking for thetm, were men, who for the msost part, without any capital of their o2wn, were anxious to compete with those who worked their own capital; and that the low rate of interest at which the loans -were obtained enabled them to do this the more easily. Un- dezr those circumstances, time Lord-Lieutenant determnined o wvithdrawv such advances, and to confine them in future to public works onlv- He feared that a. similar fate would attend the loans -whlich rni~t be advanced under the motion of the hon. member, ebould the house agrct to it. Hie would not go to thc details of the lion, member'g motioni, for it was -rathier to the principle that be ob- jected; buit one objection would be, that Governmnent must resort to means of' severity to recover thtose loans if any diffileilty oc- curred: it wouldI have thie ureference oF' all othier cfeditors, and recover by the process of' extents. This would eabse the other crediitors to) withdraw the money due to them, by every possible meatns ;anid thec consequence must be, that Govern- iient miust eithier forego the debts whichl might be due to them, or by procceeding for themi, proluice a greater inconvenience. It was true that a part of' the money alreadly granted by Parliament wasi still in the hiands of' the Irish- Goverinient ; andt any adqditioni to it at present wvould be oinly hioldliig out hopes which it nalcht not be pessible to realize. WVithout going to the othier point,- of' the honourable mnember's speech, he would statte, thatt the groundi on which he concuirred with his right honourable trisnd (the kChancelior of' the Exchiequer) in opposing the motion, was the Iinexpediency of' adviancing f'undis to the peopie, which cooild Inot be perinanently kept uip, and which, as he had obscrved,would be givng is tohoes hih could not be realized. There were, he wouldadmtt occaionseihe, the pegenot havinz a sufficient sup- p~y offood,Itmht be necessary to a vance a su m of' the public mnone for`hireief;but it was, he thought, inexpedient to call on Parliament f'r navneof' money when somne slich pressing ne- essity did not exist. We should reserve the demands on the puib- tlic money until time of' need ; andI not give the people the habit of' lo0oking to IL grant of' public mioney on every emergency. i After a few words in explaniation from 311r, J. S'tj Tu and M1r. Go UL B 5RY 111r. S. RI[CE said that he had not intended to have ofteredI iis~ isentiments on thiis occasion. on a question originating as this did, he would have preferred leaving the discussion among bis Eng- lish colleagues in Parliament'; but hiis objections oni this1 gTound were retisovcd hv some observations of' the rig:ht ho-i nourable gentleman wlho had just sat down. He ( Mr. S. Rice) had happenedI to be the' individual who mioved for a comnmittee, whose renort recommended,as advantageuous to the coun- trv, the advance of Eniglish capital to Ireland. I'hie right honour.. I able genitlemnan (Mr. Goullsurn) said that it was to thie principl rather than thie tlstail that hie objected. It was in support of the principle that ha rose, and not only to sup.port the principle, but to oppose the grounds on which the motion h~ad been objected to.Th righit lion. gentlemian had stated that we should I ather reserve our funds forcraces ofgreat emergency. Wihat! Did therigt hn. ent men t sa tht e should wait until famine ha5 gi perd nta nap t-utry? Did hie wish to wait unti thepeope wre sarvig? Srel it wouild be much better to appl th pulicmony i a ay alc]at4toavert such a calamity, by uttng he ean of inustiou eert n in the power of' thie people. Tee was a disposition to work, and it ought to be talcen Iadvantage o' andI it was seen, during the late scardity in Irelaind, -Ithat in those pisces where the people had ernployment, famine hiad Ibeen arrestedl, and its political consequence averted. H-e had not K t'rgotten what was aone bv way of eleemosynary relief; but it was Iknown that the surplus of' the funds so applied had behn retutned to IGovernment. Theobjectof themotioni was to stimulatelocaliRdustry, and by that means render future eleemosynary grants unnecessary. It waq saidI that advances were no longer necessary after the distress was removed ; but it was well known that the commnissions for ad- Ivancing mioney in this- country sitill existed ; but no one wvould now say that they cxisted because of the distress of the country. They Lexisted because the Parliament and time public recognizetI the advan- tagte offadvanicingv small sumns to individuals uind-er particular circum- stances. A striking example of the advanaewihrahdfo,h advancinz of capital in IrelandI had comne to his knowledge, whicth he lwould st.ate for th,einformation of'the house. It happened recently, thtagetqzct of flax-seed prevailed in the couinty of Sligo, the efctafwhic Udrrwas to put that article out of' the reachi of theindigent cls.Udrthese circtimstances, a gentleiman named Strickland, who, he uinderstood, possessed considerable property in Sligo, pur- chased a thiousand pounds' worth of' flax-seed, which he rc-sold to his tenants, at a much cheaper rate than they could have purchased it in the market. The flax was cultivated, 'andl a profit of' not less than 21,0001. was obtained upon that crop. (Hear, hear) In an- :1other case, one of the officers of Govemment hadl expended a small sutm in opening a new road in one of the most remote parts of' the sonuth-western districts of reland, in consequenCe of' which several good houses had been builit, and some manufactures established, whiere nothing ofthie kind hadi previouslY existed. The hon. mem- her conrdled by exoresgsinz hi-t intention to vote for the motion. Mr. GOUIjBUTRN said, that the hon. miember who had j'ust sat dowvn had misunderstood what he (Mr. Goulhurn) had stated. He hiad not said, as the hion. member had assumned, that no grant shouiltl be made by PaLrliamient to Ireland except in case of actual starva- tion, but only that it was% not now necessarY to make any grant of the nature prop'osed. Mr. S. RICE wvassgorry to find that he had misconceived what had fallen from the right hon. gentlemnan. Mr. CANNI'NG said, that as he had been absent from tlihhus dtmring the time that his righit hon. friend had spken, h~e couldno tell wvhethier the hon. memiber for Limierick (Mlr. S. Rice had mis- represented whiat hadl previously fallen from hmsrighthon. friend. but from all he knew of his right hon. friend's opinions in. general,as well as upon the particular subject 'inder disculssion, hie was inclined to believ,e, that what he had statcd had not been correctly understood by the lion, member for Limerick, and he was happy to find thatI imisopinion hadl been confirmedl by the explanation whichi lhad been given byv his right. hon. friendl. The hon. mem-ber for Limerick hiad argued as if the point at is-sue were, whether Parliaiment should, on any occasion short of an exigency absolutely amounting to want, afford any pecuniary asssistan~ce to Ireland ; but as he (Mr. Can- ning) understood the question, it was not of' that general nature, but only whether, on the present occasion, anti in the particuilar way pro- posed, such assistance should be grantetl? (flear.) lie would say that no proposition which had beeni made for the relief of Irelandl deserved to be entertained with more favour thani thiat wlhichi had be-en proposed by the honourable memiber for Northiampton, if the house wvere to consider only the manner in whiceh it had been introdluced to the notice of the house. Nothing could be heiter than the honourable mover's -ddres;, both in the con- ception andi the execution. (Hfear.) Hec I'ae sture, from clho temiper whichb the lion, miember hadl displayed, that hie would readily admint thnat it was possible for an individual to differ with htm in re- gard to the application of the principles which lie had propounded, without at all imipugniing time principles themsojves. The honour- able member liatd stated the case fairly, anti indeed, ratlier against himiself', whien he saitl, that unless lie couild show thiat' there existed a crisisiri whiichi assistance ouncut to be afforded, and that his modeof af- fording that assistance was the most available,his proposition must fall to thegroundl. In his opinion, the scheme proposed by the hon. memnber would be attendedI by inconveniencei which wouild miore than comiuterbalance thec advantagzes which could be hoped from it. Oni what had the lionourable member for Limerick rested his sup- port of the proposition ? On the example of thec barren district being by an advance of puiblic moneyv converted into a flouirishing Ineighbourhoodl. Undoubtedlyv, in the particuilar instance, this wvas a, blessing ; binit the honourable mnember was wvrong in de- ducing from that circumiistance the general ruile, that it wvould he wise to expenid the puiblic moeney in endeavouring to prodluce ii similar charge in every ba-rren spot in Ireland. The samie honour- able member h3d also directid time attention of the hiouse to an in- stance of the successful cultivationt o' flax. Thait rfesut had beeni produceil by the landilorid lendling his tenanits money to enable thlem to cultivate thecir land; and- the argumient of the [Inn. Meniber was, that because the experimient had been successful, rOp it would be advantuczeous for Government to advance loanis to the lanled gen- tlemen of Ireland. Hle didi not miean to tleny- that advanta,ge might not result froni Government giving its aid to public works; but it was quite a different thing f'orGovernmient to come forward as alend- Cr, andl particularly as a lender to thec landed interest of Ireland. fie thoughit that the schieme of lending money- by Govermient would ein the highest degree mischievous. fie entertained this opi- icon the more strongly, perhaps, because it was one to whichi he hiad been converted; for, according to the old Iadage, converts always maintained their new opinions with greater heat than those which tlie'c abandoned. A few years ago he had entertainedi an idlea, that the -distresses of the landedi interest of England mighlt be relieved by making Governnient advance theni mioney at a lower rate of interest than that vhich was uisually paid, snt ordelr to enable them to pay off the imortgages andI other incaTn- brances of thecir estates. H-e had set ouit in hiis scheme with the imost sanguine expectation of arriving at a satisfactory conclusion, anti it was wvith the greatest utiwillingness that he Isto pped with the conviction that his plan was impracticable, and that if itere practicable it would be niischievous. H4e presumed( that the CrowiL would tcchnically standI in the place of lender; and thien he would ask whether the Crown had the samne privileges in Ire- land, whien standingini the character.of a creditor, thiat it possessed in England. If, as he presumed, it did, could any man conceive that the landed gentlemen oflirelaned could standi in a nbore inconvenient situatiosi than as the debtors of the Crown ? It was observed in the Spectator, or some other popular weork of' that naturze, that nothing was so different a~s the comimencement of a loan, and the endl of it. (A laugh.) Nothing could be ainaiable as a lender ; but nothing. was so odious as a creditor. The borrower at first addressed the lender cap in hand ; but whien he changed tdie mnitt name of lendler for that of creditor, he was unwilling to look him in the face. (A laugh.) So it would be if thle Crown were To lend money. After a certain time it must apply for payment WVhat theni would take place ? The Crown, it was well kimown, had the preferei'ce over qll other creditors, andl would take first. Notlitng c-ould bee conceived more inconvenierit than such a circumstance, when it was carried to any considerable extent. (I-ear, hear.) To make the lauded gen-. tlemen ef Ireland debtors of' the Crown, would cause tlieni inconve- nience, and loss, andl perhiaps ruin. It was these considerations whbich had indluced himi to abandon a similar schieme wvhich he had once entertained with regard to England. (Hear, hear.) lie was convinced that such a Plan coulti not be carried into effet in Ireland wvithout producing inconveniencies infinitely grecater than those which it was intemided to remove. AVitlh respect to one of' the other topics which baad been touched upon-~namely, the affording pecniay asisanc inaidof ubh wolc-tisat course of' proceed. inghadalrad reeivd te ancionofParliament. To a specific proosiionof hatnatre e wuldnotbe ndsposed to give his fa- vouabl atenton bt h ivs cmpeledtovote against the mo- tionwhih hd ben sbmitedto te huseupo the present occa- -ir. MLABJERLY cotitended that there would be nothing im- proper in Goveniment advancing loans to the landed gentlemen of Ireland. Hc was sure that if Parliament did not specdilv affbrd relief to that country, a general system of rebellion would ensue. He had received from his agent in Ireland the most distressing ad- cotints of the state of the poor classes. There were hundreds of thousands of people there able and willing to work, who had not been able for a long time to earn more than two-pence a-day. Parliament would not be acting justly, if, whilst it was voting money for the building of palaces and churches, it withheld its assistance from Ireland. ( H ear.) Colonel TRENCH praised the conduct of Mr. Striclcand, who had been alluded to by the honourable member for Limerick (lr. S. Rice), and who was merely an agent employed by some English attornies, to superintend the ruined estate of a nobleman. The un- fortunate situnuon of Ireland was to be ehiefly attributed to the dis- tresses of the residents, and therefore he thought that a loan to them would be attended with beneficial results. kr. ABERCROMIBY regretted that although heconcurredl in jmany of the sentimeats which were so well expressed by the hon. mover, yet he could not give his assent to the motion now before the house. AU who knew the state of ireland must earnestly de- sire to promote any measure which appeared likely to alleviate the condition of the unfortunate peasantry of that country. He praised the temperate manner in which the subject had been discussed; but when Irish affairs were spoken of, he must always say that Ireland owed less to her Government ac a nation, than any other country in Europe. The present proposition, they must all admit, came before them under very pecculiar circumstances. There was at this moment in England an immense redundaTIcy of capital nevertheless they had the adjoining country of Ireland, with an active population of six or seven millions, unable to obtain a single shilling of that surplus unemployed money with which England abounded. This was a mnelancholy fact; but in view- ing the present motion, the difficulty was, how to call upon overnment to do tha: which private individu-als would 40t venfav to don uon tleir owrn responsibflity. Wtal; it that Ireland in herself afFordecLno encouragement for the advance of'capital ? The reverse was inherently the fact ;for the same sort of land was to be had in Irelaind, at one..thirdI of the value whiclh could be obtained for landed property ini England. There was soinething dreadfuilly alarmning in the bare recital of such astate of thingsR. There was England withia redundant capital and Ireland, wvith such inherent advantages, un- able to raise one farthing from her neighbour's surplus, If this motion only promulgated that fact some benetit must result from the discussuon. It wasiplmn totedlet capacity, that iniquiry mlust be hadi into the deep and latent cause of such ani evil, and that the Governmenit must take the sa-ne dgceisive step to apply a remedy for that evil, vhich had prwn ot tof longmisi-rule. (-la) This showed something wrong in the administration of the law- some palpable insecturity of' nersou and property, which offered a bar to the diffusion of that capitail whichi elsewhere flowedt in clharnelsso free. (Hear.) He entirel agreed that oine great evil arose ouit of the population so far exceeding the demand for labour; and that thie surest rcmnedy wouild be found in the extension of capital. But how could thev expect the applic-ationi of capital, until the insecuritv, which w'as the obstacle to its being intruasted, was removed ? Until tha wee dne,no a artingwoud e advanced to Ireland. In whatwaywascaptal o b funised,accordling to the present mo- tion andin wat moun? Itwasclear .tbat the Govern- mentcoud no mae s lare a adance, except upon security; andtha th ony scurty o b fxed upon in Ireland, was the and.Coud itfor siomen betolerated that the Govern- ment was to be invested withi this claim upon, the land, which, according to tlae process of Government secoarity, would fasten uipon it and tie it up, notwithstanding any transfer of lands, so long as a shilling of the original loan remained unpaid. That was a process which was obviously rnost objectionable, and threfore he couldl not consent to a motion wh'ichi involved these coni- siequences. How far other methodIs could be devised of advancing loans to certan individuals of the imiddling classes, to be apportion- ed to encourage thte industrv of the poor, he was not prepared to say. In some instances he ktnew the best results had followed from suchi advances. There was another part of the subject, in whiceh lie could not understand the policy of the Government, and of somie of the gentlemen opposite. TheY patronized education, they enlightened the peasantry, but no adequate accompanying steps were taken to mnake that mniserv les gling whichi these people must see with more bitterlness tie snore palpable it be- came to their improved uniderstanding. '?Hear.) The people were in iact enlightened to beholdI an intolerable condition. The state. of Ireland, he wasi convinced, must be probed deeper than it had hithierto heen, and by a different and more cohiprehensive motion than the present. Mir. IMONOK agreed that the great cause of the evil was the re- dundznt population of Ireland, but he could notthink that this mo- tion would apply any thinig like an adi'ae end- Ireland had hada lar ge share of employment within thie last3O years, anid in that time an additional million of acres had been cultivated, but the po- pulation increased far beyond this increase of cultivation,and the first remedy must be bvendeavouring to infuse abetter taste forthe comforts of life into the Iri,h peasantrv, and a distaste for those premature I marriages, by which they made themselves wretehied, and their chil- dren slaves. He then contrasted the condition of Scotland andI Ire- land, the superficial extent of epch country being nearly the same, and yet Scotland had only to maintain a population of two -milliong, wvhile Ireland was buirdenedl with seven millions. He recomtendedd int the strongest ternms the introduction of English husbandry, and the comfortable plan of English farmas and cottages, into Ireland, and the limposition of a small land-tax, by means of which the Govern- inent could carryon those internal improvements which, while they employed the people, would facilitate their internal communica- tions. The present motion, if adopted, would only afford employ- ment to about 40.000 people, whilst .300,000 or 400,000 wantedI wotlk. It was therefore inadlequiate ; and besides that objection, he disliked the pri-riple of giving relief to Ireland at the.dircct expense of Eng- land atrad Scotland. MVr. C. H. HIUTLCHINSON said, that he did not desire the im- provement of his couintry at the direct expense of any other portion of the inhabitants of the empire; but he dlid put in a claim for [jistie ad god ait toard Irlan. e was glad to find that Itndsh giitlmenwerenow irecingtheir attention to the state of Ireand ad h ws gatfulfo thirexertions. He had been for 2 Iyeas vinl eneavurig t rosethe attention of Government and he arlimen to he onsieraionof the condition of his coun- try, and contendinig for that admission which was at lesngth so freely given-that the Im'provement of Ireland muist conduce to the general welfare of the empire, andI that hier tranquillity would add to its stability. As long as, persons and property were inisecure in Ireland, so long would the 'peace anid prosperity of Great Britain be marred and compro~mised. (Hear, heas.) He bestowed his warmest comnmendations upon the lhonourable mover of this quiestion, and asked his opponents if they could deny that the em- ployment of the peasantry was an indispensable object, and if this imotion did not tend to afford some employment. ble seized this imeasure because lie saw no better offered-he had been calling for yeairs for inquiry and for relief for the wretched population of Ire- land, and the Government were deaf to the call. But did they imta- gine they could continue thlisindifference ? Did they think they could retain Ir'eland in their hands, by always meeting the grwthi of mii sery with coercion ? (Hear.) The notion was preposterous. Tfhere was a state of distres arcumulating in the south and west of Ireland, that if it wrere felt in Lancashire, or in Scotland, w-ouldreue thle whole standing armyv of the kingdom to keep from brea-u ouit into open revolt. Lie imaplored ministers now, as he haofe be- fore, to direct their calm and dispassionate attention to the condi- tion of Ireland --- not to advanice as, hitherto, at a snail's pace, but before they porogued this Patjiamneut to take up the subject se- riously, for thre danger could ho longer be overlooked. He called upon -the Government to remember nd. pledge given at thae timne of teUnion hyVlr.Pitt anti Lord Clare-the solemn assurance that in the imperial Parliament the redress should be afforded to Irish grievances, which it were vain to expect from the contending fac- tions which then convulsed Ireland, and disgraccd her Government. Look at these promises, and their subsequent abandonment. Tile honourable member then took, a review of the wretche6i con- dlition of the peasantry of Ireland, and implored the house not to reject one miotion which had their improvement for its object, without stipulating for somne other.wbichi was likely to be mnore, generally palatable. He implored them net to delay the conideatin,to eetthequstin wthcalmness and temper, and whist heyadmtte th erorsof hepast, and the numbers who had alln ito hem toproeedin sprit of firmness and concilia- tio toreairinuris wic hal lredybeon too long and too se- Mr. Adermn BRDGES as sruckwith the singular and melancholy fact, that while loans could ehd in England for peo. ple in the remotest corners in the wordno a shilling could be raised for Ireland. Sir JOHN NEWPORT entirely agreed withi his honourable friendl (Mr. Hutchinson), that tranqnillity must be restored, be- fnre capital couild be expected to find a channel through Ireland. But he was astonished to find that the Government appeared so pas- silre upon tite state of Irelai-l, and appeared to hope for the attain- ment of tranquillity fromn the operation of coercion and insurrectioni laws. (Hear, hear.) He would co-ntend now, as lie bad often done before, that the great impediment to the circulation of capital in Ireland would be fntt'id in the bad administration of the laws of thlat country, anid particularl y with respect to the important Offices of sheriff and sub-sheriff. He knew that some pains had been tatken to remedyv the former, but the latter remiained exactly in the sattileinadeqttate condition in which it stood for thelast century.Se&-ion after srssion passetd, and yet the Govemnment applied no remedy to this evil. Wlithi respect to thle peasantry, every bodyv knew that it was not upon the amount of wages they comiplainedl, but for not hiavinig any wages or any employmient. With respect to the gentry of Ireland, it would be rememibered that they had been borne down by ati exorbitant scale of taxation, whiceh -was exacted -until thle country wvas drained of the last farthing, and many of them were by beggarv driven to be absentees. He lhad all along predicted this resultfroai' the unequal scaleof the assessed taxes,as applied to Ireland. He fully concurred in the apprehensions of his honouTable frienid as to the consequences that must enisue upon the difiusioni of education amongtliteunemployed popuilation oflIreland. To give them educa- tion wouild he to acquaint them with the position in which they stood, and with their numerical strength-a knowvledge that, tinder present circumstances, would only he disastrous to both countries, and ensure the demolition of an union, for the safety of' which every~ gentleman, on whatever side of the hiouse he sat, must feel the manst lively solicitude. No time could be more fitting for the discussion of a great imiperial question like thiat which his hen, friend hatd Fubmittedi than the present--.a timie of profound peace; and it would be indeed an ungracious thing, by deferring it to a less auspicious moment, to fuirnish' anv opportunitv to the distressed classest of Ireland once again to affirmn, that it was only in seasons of politica distress or peril to Great Britain that her interests and her welfare were effec- tually consulted. Mr. PEEL thought that but a very smnall pare of the righit hon. baronet's speech had any hearing on the question before the house. All he (Mr. Peel) should feel it necessary to obserye, on the present Occa'ion (whiich he considered by no means the best that the right hon. bare, might have selected for that speech) was, that he fully, coincidedl in those obiections which hon. friends of his had taken to the motion. The last right bonourable membet hedl said, that one of the great obsitacles to the Importation of' capital into Ireland was, the present coDndition of the adlministration of justice in that country : he had particularly allude-d to those officers who were engaged in the recovery of debts, and had asked why no remedy was alpplid to the known tieficiencies of their department ? With re- spect to the nomination and appointmrenit of slieriffs, he seemed to be satisfied that Government a effected every thing that it was in their powverto dofor the due execution of their office Now with re- gard to sub.sheriff's, to whora the right honoarable bayonet's Objections seemed principally to be taken, he (Mfr. Peel) was ~IIigtoallw tat in the discharge *f their offices (perhaps as imprtat s te thes,and mote immediately operative on the intress f te pblc) a very defective system prevailed. Buit was it ota fct tht t this very moment a commission that had been mainy istiute onthe suggestion of the eight hon. baronet himself wasstil eploed,in the performance of its functions, in investi- gatig tis vry ubjet? Vould it not be much better, therefore, to eav th dicusionofsuch a topic till the house were in possession of tat ommssin'sreprt ? To him (Mir. Peel) it seemetd that nomore satisfactoryrao could be assigned for delay. Sir JOHN NEWPRT in explanation, reimarkedl that tha,t comnmission was appointed to inq* notefe and duuies of the office of sheriff in Ireland? and could not therefore report any thing satisfactory upon the subject of his complaint as to the sub-sheriffs, under the present system ; for he complained of the non-execution of their dutv, and insisted upon the necessity ef enforcing a proper discharge of ihtt dutv. Captain MABERLY replied. AU parties seemed agreed as to the nature of the evils which naitated Ireland; the only diference appeared to be as to the remedy it might be proper to apply to them. He fuly admitted the force of manv of the objections that had been urged to his mnotion; but he thought that the advantages which would arise trom encouraging manufactures in Ireland, from esta- blislhing habits of industry and civilization, and from providing per. manent employment for the poor ppulation of that country, (for such relief could only be furnished by permanent, and not by tem- porary employment),-these advantages, he considered, would more than counterbalance any such objections. Were his proposi. tion acceded to, the fisheries of Ireland might be equally benefited and improved. fie was sorry hon. gentlemen opposite did not see these matters in theliglit he did, but in his present feeling he could not consent to withdraw his motion. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. On our return into the gallery, we found that the house had divided and that the numbers were- l'or the motion, Ayes, 33 r Noes, 85 1 Majority, 52 1llr. KEAIP moved for leave to bring ;D a bill to authorize the establishment of a Register-office for concentrating the registers of baphisms, marriages, and burials in England. Mr. PEEL, in consenting to the introduction of ucdh a bill, begged to be understood as not pledging himself to the support of lts provisions. These, indeed, lne msight be better able to under- standwhen they should be reduced to a printed shape, than he was at present; but he gualded himself agdonso any pledge of support Leave was then given to bring in the bilL Sir GEORGE HILL obtained leave to bring in a bill to ednti- nue the act for the transfer of stock between Great Britain and Ireland. Sir J. NEWPORT rose to move for some retttrns connected with the parochial church of St. George, in the city of Dablin. A vast sum of money had been already expended (he believed up- wards of 50,0001.) on this edifie, and it was net yet complete. | A very increased taxation upon the inhabitants of this Particular parish had been the consequence of this expenditure. They ap- prehended that there must have been some misapplicadona of the monies raised at various periods on account of this church, and that a debt had been incurred for which the funds of the parish had been improperly mortgaged. lIe therefore moved for returns of all sunis of money granted, or raised on loan or otherwise, for the erection of the parochial church of St. George, Dublin; spe- cifying the dates of such grants and loans; and also for an ac- count of all sums of money expendedt since the year 1800, up to the present time, on account of such church, the dates of such disbursements, tbe names of trustees, &c. AMr. GOULBURN suggested, that it would have been more re- gular to kave given notice of such a motion, as it might affect the character of individuals. Sir J. NEWPORT denied that the course he had taken was at all irregular; but he took that opportunity of giving lnotice, thlat he would on Thursday uext move for certain statistical returns con- nected with the population of Ireland. The returns relative to St. (eorze's church were then ordered. BRITISH AIUSEUAM. On the motion of AMr. BAN}ES, the British Museum bill was read a third time, and passed. SCOTCH JURIES. IMIr. KENNEDY, after apologizing for the possible irregularity of his motion at this stage of the business of the session. moved the bringing up of the report on the Scotch juries bill. The LORD-ADVOCATE was not adverse to this motior, but felt disposed, in fairness to his honourablefriend, to point out those parts in the arrangement andi detail of his bill. to which he should; at a future stage af it take some objections. The noble and learned lord then ptoceeded to express his dissatisfaction with certain propositions containedi in the bill for altering the present system of making out jury-lists in the Scottish courts. Mr. KE:NNEDY insisted upon the necessity of making some pro- vision on this headt and read an extract from a reported sneech of the Lord Justice Clerlk, strongly urging the propriety of such a measure. Sir G. CLERK defended the conduct which the Lord Advocate had adopted With regard to this bill. illr. ABERCROII BY complained of the Yexatious opposition which the Lord Advocate had given to it at its several previous stages, and contended that there was not the slightest weight in any of the obiections which he had made to iL Lord BiNNING was for the postponemnent of thebill to the next ses-ion. Mlr. COURTENTAY thought the bill now before the house was a great improvement in the law as it existed at present in Scotland. *Ir. PEEL was anxious to render the bill as perfect as possible, and with that view surgested that it should be re-commsitted. After a few observations from Mr. SCARLETT, Mr. KENNEDY said, that he had no objection to re-commit the bill, provided it were done on an early dav. The report was then brought up; and after a short discussion thc bill was ordered to be re-committed this day. The other orders of the (ay were then disposed of, and the house adjourned at HIALFPAST TWIO O'CLOC}. MIfNORITY Of 33, who voted on Captain Mlaberly's motion for a Committee of the whole House to consider the propriety of addressing the Crown to advance capital, not exceeling one million, to Ireland, to be employed in the provinces of illunster and Connaught, and appointing Commtssioners for carrying this object into effect. Birownliow, C. Hutchinson,H1on.Pelbstin, J. C. Tierney, Rt. Hon. AlthofLrp,Vs. C H.ns-od Power. R. G Clifton, Lorjd LHonywood, IV. P.tICea, T. S. Tallot, R W. Clements, J. Lamb, Htun. G. Smith, J. WVhite, S. Dlennman, T. Leader,IW. Smith, Hon. IL. White, H. ElIis, Hon. G. A. M, berly. J. Stanley, Lord Wood, StM. Ebrington, Vis. Nfar.iorlbanks, s. Sykes, n. Westenra, SHun. Foley, J. Newiport, Sir J. Stuart, IV. H. R. Handley, H. Nugent, Lord StanleY,on.E.C.WhItbread S. C. Teller-Captain Maberly. HOUSE OF COAnMON-K- ''YTrVq)AV. 1MAY 4.