House Of Commons, Monday,...
The Times, 1824-03-16T00:00:00

thu r. W. IJUNL)Ab presented a petition from the inhabitants of te county of Fife, against the salmon fishery bill. Lord STANLEY presented three peitios fromn the journeymen bootmakers, tannaers, cutrriers, aind ote tradesmen of Blackburn andi C.horlev.in Lancashire, against the combinationl laws.-...Referred to the comijaittee on artisans. Mr. LAWLEY brought int a bill for regulating the assay, and stamping of wroughlt plate in -he towin of Birmingbam.-Read a 4first timiie. The honourable member also presented a petition from the tanners, carriers, andl othiers of Birmningliam, against the com- bination laws.-Reft-rred to the comnmittee. Sir IV. LEMNION presented a petition fromt Traro, for the aboli.- tion of niegro slavery. Similar petitions were presented by Lord I,OWTHER., fromi Appleby ; bv Lordl HOTHAMI, fromi Maidstone ; byl Sir C. COLE, from Neatfi; by Sir XXl'. Dundas, from Edin.. burgh; b' Illr. AIU.VDY.. fromi niine parishes in Derbyshire; by a mnember, f'rom lHenlev-oii-Tham-es; from the burgh 'of Qaceti's.. Ferry,; bv Sir J. AS~TLEX-, from1 Melksbam, Wiltts,; by Sir J1. SEIiRIG54T, from Rovston; by Mr. SY,cxs, from Hull; and front thiree other towns in the county, of York; and by Mr. WODE. SIOUJSE, fromi Attleborough, Norfolk.-All of these petitions were readi. anid ordered to lie on thie table andl to be prinited. Mr. P. MOO0 RE presenited a petition fromi the ribancl-weavers of Coventry, agains,t thie imiportation of mianufacturedl silk goods. The hon. member also presented a petition signed by 7,000 of the inhabitants of Great and Little Bolton, against the combination laws, which was referred to the committee. Mr. DAVENPORT presented a petition from Congbleton, against the poor-laws bill. The lion. memnber also presented a petition fromn Macclesfield. ag-ainst the comnbination laws ; and i'romn the licensed victuallers of Nantwich, againist the duty oni their licences. Ti'le SPEAKER'S writ was ordered for the return of a member for Queensborouigh, in the roomn of the Righit Honi. T. Chiarles Villiers, liord Ciarenidon. A M1E :tnErt presented a petition from MUorpeth. against the ex- portation of' British long wool. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from Rochelaic, against the inhabited house tax. Sir ,J. SEBRIGHIT presenterI a petition fronii Royston, Haerts, against the dute on coals earnedi coasrlWie.C iMlr. SYKES presented two petifion,r, from Whitehavent anid an- othier place, against the combination laws, wichiel were referred to the comimittee. The hon. memiber also piresentedi a petition from rthe tanners anid corriers of lHull, against the repeal of the acts re- lating to hides. Mr. LEGH-KECK p-_,resented a petition from Thiomas Thomp. son and otliers of A,hbvde-la-Zouch, in Leicestershire, aga inst the window-tax. Mlr. A. CAMPBELL broughit up a petition from the tradertwnd planters of Glasgow and Greenock, coninected with the W1est iXrtfia colon!i~%, pravitig the hiouse to take inito consideration thie qutestioni Of COnrinul-na the duties on rumi. Th'e same hon. gentleman pre- sented anothcr,from the cotton mianufacturers anti spinners of flax of thie samec vicinityv, oni thle subJect Of the lin en boutinies. Petitions were then- presented in the following order :-)Mr- LAsin1TO.v, a petition fromn the w'orated spinnersand woollen-manu- facturers of Darlington, against the exportation of British long wool;, andI anothier from Barnard Castle. in the county of Y-ork, against itegro slaverv. Mr. Secretary PEEL, a petition from Burv, praying that the law in. force relative to the exportation of raw hiid'es might niot be repealed ; Mr. PETER MOORE, wre believe. another fromi thec county of i$aost, agrainst negro slavery ' and .'lr. Groocit a sinmilar' petition 'froml the county of' Suiffolk. Mr. S. C. NWssTBRuit:., a petition fromi certain licensed ,'ictuallerti in MIiddlesex agains.t thieexcis,elicences act ; and Captain B.fSTARD), a like one from thie licensedI victuallers of' Devonportr Mr. Hoti- ltousE. a petition fromi the )ourtteyinten prTinters of ttite city of Wlestminiister, against thieconibmiation laws; 3Mr. Alderman Wio'on, a petitisn to the sanite effecct fronti the journeymen hooit anti shoe- miakers of Asliton-undler4Line; and M?r. Hu'mE, another of the same nature from certain *iotirneymen boot and shoe makers of' ite borough of Plymourh, and the t'own of' DevonporL.-All thecse pecti- tionis were seve'rally read anti laid on the table ; and the thiree latter were ordleredi to be referred to the artisans' cominittee. Mr. HOBHOUSE presented a petition from the inhiabitants of' Bromley and Bow. tn M iddlesex, irs favour of the bill for thie prt- nishmnent of cruelty to animals. Mr. BRIGHT brouiglt up a petition from tlie manufacturers of tobac co, in Bristol, against the duties upon tobacco; anti one trons the same~ city, in favour of the insolvent debtors' bill. Sir NWILLIAM INGILBY, a petition fromn the licensed vie- tuallers of the ciry of Linicoln, against the excise licences' act. Mr. Aldermian WOOD, a petition fromn the inhabitants of Brent- wood and Rumiford. in Essex.'against negro sla very; and Mr. PELaHAM, a simnilar one, from some places in thte county of Norfolk. NEWV CIIURCHES. Mr. ABERCROMBY then brought uip a petition fro tithe Chamnber of' Commerce Of the city of Edinbur-gh. The petitioners p)roffered thieir thantks for the liberal policy which had been adopted by his Majestv's ministers of late, in respect of tile new arrangRo- merits ithat it wvas proptosed to establish in the comimerce of the country. They' saw, however, weith great sorrow, titar the Govnern- miint hiad. nor yect remitted any further part of tire assesserd or direct taxes (hear) ; and therefore t hey expresse.d their humiible hope tiata if Iiis MHajesty's tininisters should still determine not to remit anty suchi portion of the direct taxes, thiey would4 at least nor appliv any, part of tiie reventue to be raised upon the stare: to the building of new churches,. (Hear, liear.l LINEN BOUNTIES. Mr. HUGH LIN.DSAY' presented a petition, nuitmcco'asly and respectably, signed by trite imanufacturers of lowk pricedI Iittens fa- spinners, anI otliters, of Dundee, CupaT, Forfar. Pertlishiire, anti Saint Antdrets's, pray ing that the bounties upon liitens should ihe re- rirrited after rthe rate of onily five per cent, per annurlm for ttire five years niow next ensaitig ; and also., thrir after thje I1it of J anuar 'v. lII'26. there mighit be somle alteration in the rimie to he allowed to rtianufacturers for selling ofl' thecir stock. The petitioners also prayed thiat the bounty uponl sail-cloths might be reirrirred to thle sams extent as thiose upon linens. THE DISTILLERIES. M1r.HU.'tE presented a petition fromi certain individutals., rec- tifiers of' British spirits, in and near the city of Londhon. Thiey re- presented " tuat thley lhad invested a large capital in the p'arctiase of works, near Lonclon, for the rectification o' spirits; antI stated that notwithstanding it was declared by law thlat no distiller stituld be also a rectifi-r of' spirits,l a great miany, distillers were at thit time rectifiers;, tfiret about six or seven of rise large distillers regulated themnarkets and prices in London ; andi that these individuals were also distillers." Now he (Mr1. Home)V cOulu not take upon h'mself to voucli for the truth or' these several aliepatiots.m but titeir miatter was of extrem-e importartce, andI t'ell worthy the attetition of' tire lsotrsle. Time petitioners further presented, thar.t thiose large distillers used stills of' ttite capac:ty of 3,010 gallons and upwards : anid corrild efl'ect therefore, a1 'Very serious operatrion, at all times, oi tile nmarket ; the rectifiers not being able to obtain supplies of spirits, from rite distillers as they w'ant-id themT, if the dlistillers chose to withlhold ; and thie distillers assignting no reason foir rte defect of supply. Thlis petitioners conceireci, thiat in justice to thtrms.em'es ,nid to the trade generally, the hmouse would bie pleasedi to atipoini a conmitiirtee to tnqrtire int'o the propriety and expediency of' licetsr,-ng s,tills of'smaller diticiiesions than at present were allowed; by whinch meanls die ti-tonopoly note coniplained of would be defeateci, anti the inconveniences at present experienced reould be prevented. They also prayedi a permission to distil Britishi spirit froiri rum, tire produice of o-ur \V'est India colonries-a measure which, whille it wvould be oh' great benefit to the \V-est Indcies, wonilti rescue the frecdom of their otwrt trade front the hands of six principal distillers, It was finally observed, that ntis petition wotlild have been signed much more nitt- mierouslv. bitt intlividnials were generallb' afraid, by reasoii of the present sutate of rime trade. to sub,cribc it. 'Now it was not possible for hiti M1r. Homie) to voutch all titese allegations ; but helmislbeets assured by a professional mian wlis had handled tifie p;rpers to hitDt that lte should he able to prove every' one of theni at the bar of ti'-A liouse. It reallv seemned to him (Mr. Hunume) thait if it .had. bee 'n tlioughtitproper tol permit in Sectland and I telatidl a redttc; on itt tire size of stills, it turighit be quite expedient to considt" wh'ethter thre satinpei)enis,ion shiould not be cxten;ded to Ef"'jand.- Tuie otlher proposition aboutt the relief'to he de-rived by tlsb WVest India colonies, fronti permitting the distillation of' British spirits fromn ru1 wa's on,e ofiextreine iimportat'cc. If riuin was now almiost a druir rn our t:' kets, such a scetniie scented to ofle.r a great chance of c%reased cort- stumption ; and lie trusted the right lion. genritIei~,az opposite (thle Chmatmefllor ofrlite Exchecque; ) woul-d give rthe inrrt_er eviery attention. Mr. ELLICE also wished, to diraw thtat. Tight lion. g'entlemamm's attenitiomti to tltis ;mecition. In tile viet5 Ql'.1t hiis Majesti 'a Govern- ment litad lately adapted of \West llin:trs affairs, it ormst appear to bt of extremelimiportance. Thi:y ',ad'latelv stated their inteintion of' rediteing the duty upon raiTt a',oot I' IAl1. per gallors. Note, thattre4uction of diittv would nor very materially affect rthe con-surlmftiton of ruti 'hern', unless the artic-le couldl, by sonic means, be intrtoduiced into Our dii,iilleries. The hon. gen'thetiar, was of opinioin thiat the les Idia trade wvould be equally benefitedi by rite reduLction of'lialf the dluty on rrrrn, asa it weould he by the pro. poedl rate of reduiction ; andi that the allowinIg tire other hialf of the duty to conitnnue' would be sufficient to prlotect tlie West India protirietolr, arid to protect British spirits ini their comspetition wvithL itis produce. MNr. BPNETT (of WVilts!i;re) thoughtt that if' the duty- on' M were any f'urthler lowered, the consumption of that produce woulh~,ima- teriahl'v increase;, and that thereby proporrtionable in~,orv would ac- crue to the barlev.growers of this c-ounitrv, of twhor.n he was% one. Mr. Wl. SMITli said, if aity case hacl been laid in this petition for thec appoi'ltrmentof a committee, nor only wvoud hie himnself'havel been friendly, tus suchi a nteasure. butt thlat respectable bodly so well known inii te hourse-the nialt-din;tiller.-would have en'tertained, lie was sure, no sort of objection to it. With all hiis Iiiah opiinion of the priblic services of his lhonourtb'le friendi (1r. House), and his convictions that, generally speaking, his htonourable frietid hadl prvnto he in the'right w~hens error was most strongly imptutedl tohim, (hear,) lie didi think sthar his honouiable friend would extierience the valoe of hiis ow-n declaralion that hie u'ould not be answerabule for the truth of the allegteaions in this peritiotn. I. was only last w,-ek that lie (Mr. Snitth) lhappened to see the nameC whichi stood at the liead of' the subscribers to this petition : and be was titan told, by a natmber of the ho(use ,that the true reasoni or thtperson's inability to obtain spiritt f'rom the distillers seas, not that they would not :aiupplv' Ite rectifiers, but that thie credlit of the indi idtt'al Iilniiself was ndot suchi as to induce them to deal withi hinm. (Hear.) Atr. HU.IE, in explanation. felt satisfiedthat it could be proved that individuals had been refuised a supplv from the distillers in the waiy mentiomed in the petirioti. It swas ktmo'wn that that immaculate body w ko were represented byI his lion. friend (Mr. 1W. Siiith) hadl actually giveit 16,000P. to a 'sitglc house in Scotland for its under- taking r,o. to distil any spirits this year, in order to keep the mar- kemp ty. Mlr. W'. SMITH explained. He seas no tarther connected with the distillers thanby thehighopinion whichy40 ears' krowledgeoftrie proceedings of their body had enabled hirm to formn of their character. Mr. ELLICE had no sort of wish that the landed interest shoald suffer bv the introduchion of West India ptoduce into the distilleries. s.Sir O NALD FERGUSSON mentioned a case in which a Sweais'h vesel~-, laden with liquiors distillea from Scotch spitits, had beets seized in thep port of Lon-don, oni accouant of the first dltyt not hiaving been paid in Scotland. The petition was then beotighat uip, readl, andl laidi uplon the tatble. Petittions :tZainst negro sla very wvere presented by Sir. BR'NET'r, fron Trowbridge; by AIr. IfavrsrTCo-YrE, from Boston and Wiain. fle'et, in Lincolnshire:, by Air. A1. ELLttS. front three places in Not- lineharmehire; Isv ILord\V. BxE'Trrxcteand M1r. C. CALVEstT,fromn two place-, the ri`a'nes of whiceh we did not hear: hrb Sir W1. GUItSE fo Stadin (lltcestcr,shire ; by nDsso,fo Tee 5e ad forkingrbySr W. Rt. GOLBaorNss, tro;n Thetford; ad bY? MEr. It. 1i. 'COOlPER. fromn a parishi itt Glocestershire.-Tltcy were read, and ordered to he prinreel. (In the motion of AIr. D,An-riote, there was ordered to be latid before the house a returni of the numiber of hous,es in 'EnglandI ande W1ales assessed to thie window-tax fur thiirty, forty, and fifty winl- dows and urwards. Sir GEORGE CLERK presented a petition from certain ini:-abi- tants, of the southern dis,trict at, Edintburgh, praying for a repeal of the house and windIow tax. Air. NUM1E said, that these taxes miust be severely felt when. tblt cor-struents of the hona. baronet wouldi petttion against them. He hoped, when the subJect camte to be discussed, the hon. baronet would be rea-dy to' spport his corstiruents' praycr.-The petition was laid on the table. Sir R. FE RGUSSON presentedl thiree petitions from three buirybs in Scotland (we didI nor hear the names), against the too sudden re- real or' the linen bounties. Srlr Rt. FERGUSSON'. noi the part, of his, hon. friend ( Mr. Lamb- to..). presented a pectition from the Itcensed vieruallers of Dtiriatoi. azainst the excise licences act. It was ordteredI to lie on the table ; as- was a similarperitrrtn Presented by Air. Dasirss-is. from ttie licenisedi Asictruallers f : Mary. l5ambet&.and Chiristcehurec, Surrey. 1ilDES AND SKINS. SIrT. LA WLEY wished to know whether the riehIthon. gentlemnan M r. Hoskisson) had turned his; attenition to a bill then in progress thr-ough the hotise. intending to miake somne regulations withi respcett to hides and skins ?If he Itat not, hie wistied to call ihin to the eon- s:der-ation of the stihiect. Aler. HUSK ISS.,O'N said that the bill alludledl to was a private b1ill: and tlhoui,th it h4d not altogerher escaped his attention, bec con- fessed he was, notflly acquainte w( iithi its dletails. The bill conn- tained some rerltoson the subject ofthe hide and skini trade,but, it appeared toi bin' that thceframers of it were beginning at thle wrong end, and that instead of' imiposing freshi regulations, they ought to consider whethecr rt would not tie better to remiove some of those al- ready existing. ( ilear.) The mieasure was onie whlich hie tlhought o,ughnt nor to pass. ( Hr-sr.) NEURO SLAVERY. Air. AT'. SM,IThI presenretla petition from the cityv andI cau'ity of' mne citt of Norwic h, praying foir the abolition of' ne~gro slavery in our colonies. it was no: his intention to take up thie timre of riite r,ouse at present ~itpo? thisi impiortant subjict. but in jutstice to hiis Constituents. nearly all of wh,om hadlput their hands to this petition, he Could not avoid making one or two remiarks upon the language held :n sonic of the! tapers wlitili lhad conic fromi the ATecst TIndies. It hatl been stated in otne ofit these that the whole of the measmures itrroduced o" thi;s sithject badoriginated wi nt a wilt1. ltot-becaned fitm nat,rcal parts In this ou'tntrY. If the atlyorates for thie measures al- luded to ~ 'ee nith a partv. lio woutldi say thait lie was happy it: being; one or their nUmttter. W\hether hisajet' Initisetsha voltun- 'ar- y, supported those treasures,f orbeticii rivetn to themi by this. aR 1A(1 anti athaical party, lie would no. sa~y; but roost erc- ra:rrhv their coniduct was praiseworthyvini witat they had done. Trec honourabie tnienaber niext adverted to rtie language hield an ctsrdernre-lc at sYne prochia uteeLings, in Jlatsrica. which lie (:Idern',, i trnrters. nd dde. tatif Ilis Majest-y's Ali- vler, ba-d fotisorrre to, notice it. it timer have bseen front motives, of -..tward, the parties uising it1. lie toosved thait the petition be _rought tUp )SIr. W. TAYLOR said, lie did not rise to tiuake any objection tri-te eiion. lair 'lie ca-ait itint ekie hiis approval to) the lon at-ce in w e -'rie of riise Petiti.ons foe ithe abolition oif' teg-ro slavery weec-sn it1 u. lie wit Id speak- orl.y of whazt occulreed ini his stl C '"uo-:s M-1A ilts, wer itinerant. adventurers had comie eloen 1-:- t-tt ready Prepared. Ile teol!d nor say by seliont -?Cs parties er sn.htrot certainly their conduct was vc-,v tar trot.-, nerra' prltsc.etiorthyv. Titer atidressed thiemiselves to th A's ons orth penle no rtle subiJeer of negro slavery, crliher than itt, re;'.i'r. The arti,;t.n. t.hetmichiattie, anId rthe peasant, seere akdwheth-r they wrere rhaturaile to liberry-whetiter they dletest- et- e-c'n p,sri-minto peep? nI si.]er anil,anstweeing.. of cotrrse, in n.e r: rn:tse tey w,rec re-nested to stgn rite petitionis presented tlie -uild not thik 'tilt: a hoc; war, at coll-ecitng rtIe opinlions, it: toe puthlni no tlin i'rp,rtatit sj,iet AI. I i. IN NETr trte,teoel against the nianner in whilch tS.c- hton. ::tib rth who had Just satt dotnetihai stpoketn ofrtite exer- 1 tsr. of those wel. were fts-oturable rts tie abol iition of snaehi an e-vil a' slavery. Th,i ho,inittirlile ancioer lefetIddEle ite contiuct tfrthose nha't h ltrade ehetit 'elves artrre 00 tilts occasion, anti con ten(ted, .1st 'onIe nt hle wisest andl toast hlutitanr mien inttrite counxtry were a-m,ongst the_ mt-titer o-f rIttise rlt'oural.ile to tile abiolition ot' slaverv. lie~ was up:s, to, thin, that, fire ithe WYes: India interest, or anv onher int-erest. 1t inoueahtse tiettibers teoutld express theniselves so0 it. lototh cxt--c:r-' othre riLtei olpetirioni on the part of the people. -'rhis 'iwnoQ-- i tit:z thiree oust be somoerthing bad in the sete h.wen iitonurable tetitbers were so i-ttocli afraid of havitig it p-~b:rcl, inq,.irr, itno. 51'. AU'. T AY1,01ll ri explanation.sd, that lie had nmerely sttdfacts is ricit hai co-ni to hMs kniotwledige. lie bad nor inrendetd no make an'v'tt -'n's rite righlt of petitioning on the present the otuiiher snt.wiicli ito, had alwaYs considered as anionzst m'l r,ost vales anei privileges o the peOple. It was rthe abuse, and ra',t -c us: o ittre ritcIn, to ti'icb bie obie'cted. lie dlidl not meani to itit- p-u' t. e O,i ive'tso 0ithose wino were adverse to tlire principle of' negro s'i ncere:thes 'ntzht. aid no doubt trait, rthe best intentions ; lint Ilie could rot ap'eove of srnore, of rthe tiitean which bad beeni resorted. to, tar a'r.'eup the petitions on rthe sitbject. .Ir. i'EEL earnestly entreated that enteen at botli sides, of the house_ wotild nit aniticipate a dis%cussion on ntis import3tnt q;u:-tron, wbi~ci itu5t contie on in tIre regutlar conrse in the Itt t twnt-to-Ur ours. lie honled that litonourable mettihbers would marIne- trait Unril they lthad heard rthe statemnert of wvhichi his rnght hon. frir:d (l.Canni hiad give noieepcig it, for tr-t Sw!i, t%staY). The earnestness withi whtich hie saw the sub- -iec: likel to, be turvured in the ptreseot instance indtuced hbio to rise .and mnake -,t:, 'ucZerstion. Ilel cr ha. Tar lietiNit ws now read, Silt1 erderedI to lie on rthe table, and to BliEER AND MALT DUTIES. 01r A AllSi.Y rose. pnriruant to thle noticeliherad given, to ist.t:oon tite subject of tire inequality of' rte dttties tts i7-I'c t Classes of the~ pui)c tin f-er and titiair. Mt'hen rite r-'e ic s ha~ ')",re th-e house 'in a formier occasioo, there was butt SM '- S it alit ho believed. it was one wistich was nor well a s''s' Itn-os,lorireer. as he view-ed it, very siniple. anti r-'cd'ut -it princi,ple-swiseli knitsn. Itwteas,wtltetlter one class o,f tis M -sv. s-titer ts -houldi he- taXedI higher titan the othiers, anti whie- am, hei lerstt':s taxing s,hould r"sat all the benefit of this inequality'. A-.: ''-eer a-in cts of f"aniiamoent connectedi witlh thie sub. -e t~.ht hee an d trat tittices. heilid niot thiink it expedlienit to enter 'nra O'e qpt-stiot, in nil its e:onilicarions. lie would, therefore, "onhoceh," t'rsrlf soirly to, one branch of it-rite interests of the parties taxed,. aind tue tinequality of' the motde e' t a-xatrop. In orde.r itar Ilie tauight nor be 'misunderstood, he woculd nitw stare rthe natuire of the motion situi which he sho.uld conclude, lie aouild move for a commiiittee to inquire into the present miode of' tamxirg beer and tialt separately; anti wheter t ilet: rt be Eexltetint. to collect the Same amiount by r.reatone. bha which all cminsUITeTS would be taxed eqinails', in'- 'edof hatiing, as was rho case at pr,esent. one Class paying 2s. lid. Per bustel icr malt, andi anothier. 6's. IOtd.-.one class paying on 'he'- ba--el of beer oti ny 51-1)4., whiie ano-ther class seas called upon tO "R LI' $ of listi'. per batrrel, till re satne qIualitv n; ii~r an( nial. Th~ ~as itpresent rthe case teith phhlt. a.nd pnis's:~e brewers, Ilie would notw prove his~ statrement. 'I 1l rl~-'e ' c 'rpu d a dtiyt of' 2s. fid. per bushel on hiis or. s.t. or 11i pe-r luIvrter if i hrtshiels. 'Ihis wa-as rte only' tduty he pr.rcc it. ice o lurs' lai.1 on the beer. The other'class--the pub'erb,veesse orranirer t'te c-.itunitrirs of the beer brewet-rl be htisi- pa: P-I io a ottf -2- ii.pr bisltel on lthe aItorI.prit. te-t1i' isfcis Imt. it, addition., titey paid ono thiree casks and a h't to 'tnne bce,-, rite prorrtiec of eight tirhels of omalt, a dutyv of lit. 'ire task. nral,inc an -atdlition of' II. 16?4. ; antI 2l. l5As. airtig-e. then. Thee ii. (1 i liv cighti, twoull niake the suno paul by IIh-r ;tuht1:ic a -- . itri.per ousltet. The daypzi ritie 'toch brire,uC- by tke trietc re lien seas oilyv th'at teltich aroOsO fl-i-luthetrai op-fra'tH. 1er tquterer, capabtlle of produtcing ~thrcee *a'n.rd a t,1 tr it ron5 teem,l i'-a equal rtoda tax of Osi. 8Ad. per -sk. Tint ilty liarif on celt cask of strong bieer brewes-edb the tirehrs.. isIsI .Non- 'his teas the difflerence wlhielt he. wishe. l o att-ftshb lie caoiti no', s,eeU1I uponalta ytinci1le ot"jus. rice rite poet mian, wlin sasgenerally tue eonisunier of the beer iotade ib. In ; ~brt hesrr 'sottilk , lie hiteced to pa>- his, per barrel theore fr1 it's be(t tiatan tiii' pettere Itrerer. into couild ailways better sWourn lie sraI paw procceed to show tite great diffe:renc in rthe 5titti thusl pSiti ti dui.s' r -e s,orer classes, anti the richi. From retitrits nor ret 1r an'd t;c rt qt-t'is f oralt which hail paiul durt' in Et'LI-ian '`t 'i ''- 'n t-, star ltt2'. it appeared] that rthe ttumiber at brishel. *-VL~ lX.The ititr tity Contsumieth by pithlie lirew. cl- d -.'ti' n.stu:euer.lie to-ak to) be Ihl,157$di7, F-,''hets 1 r, - h .-i'ty coritni rt dt ha- rite private brewsers, ;o.:~r?st; r s T---,_ . stt lie arrived at these mesrilna~ t.'1'-tIndt hr t' ie t 'a5 ttt there were breerwed in the- czr . r I-. rear 6.2t2.7i-i harrei "t strong beer, whichi, at the averge t i ' i~strlhs t' oniat tn I'erver bart ris of beer, mvould malke! eOS.7jtijttt.t cm II Ott.20 7 b Irsiols: 'ins quantity of table- bx-r hrrw& it' itt- tsitl'i itmesees a-as l.hl-21,62.7 iccels, making a~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~as . I inaing enntt,1%;l'itn 0 t'l1i sii to these, adding thec q 'tantityr colt. 'tht(" ie ne-t '.ir or-nifwti-urers anti othics, which hne .>10k at Stl te. t'ie ti-le two,; irftrort to, the ruibiper of lf7$.'s.,7T-7 1 e,v p t>-IttYri i c.I f5-i Xis as rtie 'tiantriry eo.surnset hs ttttvane Irermi r'- hit"lon, mert,fher rhetii proceerlei to shtow thiat tsktncz rhr aint' trtpor:itn, of strong-beer and table-beer amotng the Yer vane 'revt-mr -s atning tire pubiic breWers, it worildI appear that metre a-er-- 3.I4'.tt7-Ci itarr-Is of strung beer bhewsed in rthe year. ?hscr. it t:b.ltd1 tr the sant- rttrv as the heer lrewed by the piub- br hrewers. wv-.it produc` 't uIm of L.fI74.Sfli!. lOs. The qrantiry 7 snail bheer itrwe-el arntinterl ts 1.22..537 barrels, which at 2s. per baTret. Itiriii tn .ke 'l'2,dAtll., n iemakin tt tinle whole thestint ofin t:1f tl.. i aiit thie poor classes eare altnost exclu- ssvel r. cr1 rinta . I.)-av, :-nd frtol uhiich the rich were exempt. Hle w- t- v- i ron ot arT accrunt of the nutiber of barrels of bre' hirn-ted asr Iear. vwhuh was as follows :-t' strong beer., 41.212,744 :rof tableiee l,ti2l.i'23 .: of iiitertitediate beer only wiereir2. s-ee bireweil and by ..pt'ttie. 'Tlc luty paid upon that quart- :tt i of bh-tr. aas 7 :14t2 t3. De-lucting the expense of coUcetion, the amo.,t o of duttis pai(i into the 'l'reasury 'ould be aboxit R2.ptlothti. Neariy the whole of the duty was raid by the labouring cIa--es^. to whims l-er vr-s absolutely a necessary ot life. 'lIme whole dmt rnnt.lt ie c- il-lctednl s mdal;t, wiEltout the additional ex- pense of ttilinie- \'hether the duiv on malt were 2'. Pd. es 4 C..'.. thC r-etlection rif it would not require one excise officer Tnorethan thin toimber at prcsent; etoplpoyet. If the duties of beer wcre iransterrel it malt, as-Viing s."uil b- effected it regard to trie co!lecrion of t)0.ttM)Ol. He remtembfred that the Chancellor of the Exchequer rid' 5si3 last scssiolt, .at the ieturns before the house 'i,ul not rorneetlv state the expensc Wi collecting certain taxes, anti rhat. tor i tst.rnee. tit rhtmrve of cliecine- rhe betr duties included the e-Kp:nrses of the rillectian of several other items of taxation. He rcondlemnecd such a systers of keeritig accounts. Ile thought that the ex pnse Whicil attendled the collecting of evervtax ishould be par- tral Is statetd.inorderthat rtehouscaitightbeitinodouibto?rthestub- it-'t-.le nitlthtreferTtotheexarnpleot Irelandinisupportofhtsviews on the subject r:hc hcli brouight under the notice of the house. In Ire- land there wsc no duty on beer; it havntg been foind expedient to transfer the v hole char7e to malt. The conseqoence hati been that the ctinsTrltiKitnrt of'beer had materially increa.sed,wh!mit at the same trine the dtttirs continued to be verv satisfactorily paid. (Hcmar.)The hon. merhermthenadverted to the restrictions to which thebeer trade was subjected under the existing system, wvhich he strongly condemned. In the second year of his present lMajesty'sreign, ati adtvwas passed to prevent frauds lii the coUection of the detities, which imposed th~e most oppressive regulations on brewers'. Som-e titne after the act had passed, thle Scotch brewers mnemorialized the La3rds of the ITreasury oni thie subject, Stating, that it would be m ssbefor theni to ca~rry on their trade under the restrictions hich ere tinposed on them, and suiggesting that the duties on beer should be tratnsferredI to mnalt. The Lords of the Treasury answvered the ineilorialists by declaring that Government were induced to ad- here to the present qvsteeei, in order to secuire the revenue and prevent the deteriorato ofbe. Lecoul not see aniy rca- so,n wvhv ministers Should be So particuilarly carefuil of thie heailth of' hlis MaJesty's subjectsawith respect to the adulteration of 'weer. 'rhe people miight sat'ely, be allowed to choose whiat beer thecy liked best, and he was sure that they were muchi more likely to de- tect adulteraltionl than excise officers. It was thle more remnarkable cthat Government shiouldi think it necessary to waitch the brewers so narrowly, since they exercised no correspondling degree of vigilance withi regard to the wine, spirit, or sugar trade. Hle hadl no objection to gntard the public against frauds in the beer trade, but he thought, thiat tnev ought to he atlibtrty to judge for themselves with respect to the rTice antI qualitv of the article. The Lords of theTreasury, how. ever, wrere ofs a diff-erent opinion, for they had set a price upon two kinds- of beer--namiely, table-beer and intermediate beer, one of' which paid a dluty of 2s. and the othier a duty, of 5s. per barrel. The :able-beer brewers hiad recently tmemorialized the Treasury praying thiat tlteprice ofelteir commo5flty mighlt be increased fromrilils. (thel oinariinurz imposed b, tCie Treasury) to 2iO. per barrel. The Lords of thle Trea,ury ha d nleglectedi - to make any answer to the miemorial fo ay mnh. DUTing that time the price of mialt and hops continued advancring, aind the table-beer brewers were driven to the necessity of giving to the public, under the co- louir of beer, an article which was perfect trashi. He had received fromn a table-beer brewer a statement of hiis profit and loss in carry. inc on, his tradle. From that statement, it appeare(I that the Cost of 6i, bairrels of small beer, including the mlutv, was 71. l0s. 61., and that thte selling prhte of the same quantity was, (1. IOs., leaving a loss of 12.s. 6LId. That loss was not borne b;y the brewer, because lito -suPPlied an iniferioir article; it fell uipon the consumer alone. Oaie of the objections whichi thec Chancellor of the Exchequer made to liis (Mr. M1abserly's) pTonosition, when lie broughit it foirward last year, w:as,, thiat irs object ivas to place a large duty on onie article; but surely 'he right hon. gen1t. miust recollect that durinig the war thie duty on malt was 4e. lid. per bushel. All thtat lie (Mlr. Maberly) wanited was, to collect about the samec amount of dluty7 upon mialt as, was collected upion thiat article dlurinig the war. He did not thiink that the right hon. gent. nieed be utider apprehiension of fraudlulent practices uinder such a systemn. lie liad never heard any comnplatints ujpon that subject whien' the malt duty, (luring the war, produced ;,000,nool. a yeair. Anothier objection' whichi the right hon. gent. madeo to the proposition was,that it wvould prevent farmers fromT pay-' ing their labouirers in beer, in lieu of wages, as thley did at present. He (Mr. AMaberlv) tiouighlt thiat if the adoption of his plan would have smich ain efFect, it would be a benefit rather than an evil. It Was, in his opitsion, extreinely unifair that tke agricultural interest should be exempted from a tax which pressedi upon every other class of the communitv. Fe. had heard it rumtoured that it was in thie Contemplation o-f lliniStets to propose ani equalization of the duties (in b,eer. Sarics a mneasure wvouldt not at all affect the real qutestion. lie irouldl stiplose chiat tile duty ivwould be fixedI at t5s. per barrel on every description of beer. Blv suchl a mnes. surIe the consumer of Strong 'beer wriild he benefitted to the extent of Os. per barrel, buit thazt 'very large class, of time commiiutiity, who drank tablte beer would lbe unlable to purchase it on account of tie increase2 of oniCe w.llic.h would take place. HeI was wvilling to give the Chancellor of the Exchtequier andi his colleagues all the praise sviiich thiey deserved for the recent improvemenits which thecy had effecteZ wvith respect to several branchies of trade but lie could not UndlerstandI why, thie riglht lion. gentleman should stop short in thle midst of his career. The right lioniourable gentlemnan exhiibitedl no unwillingness to legislate with respect to ti-e trade in wool, lens, silk, and linen buit he seemned to be resolutely determined not to mTedd(le withi thie trade in beer, lie really c uld not under. Stantd how tile right lion, gentleman Could, Nvitli any Semblance of' consistency, advocate the principles of t'ree trade on thie one hand, anti Continule the existing restrictions on the beet tradle or. the other. The rigrht lion. gentlemian lhad recenthY recegniz2d the very prin. ci;.le for whiich lie (M1r. Mitberly) was conteniding-niauely, that taxeg.shoulid presm cnuallv on all ' assses of the commniiLiity. After tlie du:y osi wintdows' andi hoiuses liaed beeni reduced, the coninmis- sionners of taxes issuted ortiers. dhirectinig a suirvey ot houses to be taken all over thec country. That measure caused great anxiety in (lie ptublic miindl, anti when the attention of the Chlancellor n' tilie Exclmeqtmcr weas directed to tuec subject, he said lie thioughit it fair that time Ruty whicih remiainedi on liouses amid wisidows shiould be paid equally lby all persons. lie woulId wish thie righit lioniourable I seentlei'ln in to tate whyv lie consideredl that principle to be goodt withi Irespect Its tivindows andl houses, and bad weitli respect to beer and mialt ? Ile (thie Chancellor of tile Exchequer) couxld not do so, and the onily reason whyv lie refuseel to acceile to his (Mlr. Maberly's) pro. Ipotition' sas, that 'lie was afraid of the Country gentlemien. His M lr. IMaberlv's) idea weas. that an additiontal dlut-y of 2si. should be placeti t,n malt, making the whole of the duity 4t. fld. Tuie pree- sent restrictions bsing removed fromn the beer,trade, every brewer would Ie allowed to brewv wirat beer he pleased, and the consuiner woulid have an opportuinity of providing themselves with that whichi hest suited their patlates and poickets. Thiebrewer, too, would hiave an opportunity of exercisingK his skill, whiceh, under the present Sys. tein, he was prevented 1romy doing. Brewing beings chy-mical pro- cess, there could be no doubt that the brewe'r, if left to the exercise of hiis ineisenuity, would be aisle to extract a stron,ger spirit from the nmalt, and conisecquently to sell beer at a chieaper rate than sit present. If die hiouse shotild refuse to institute aii inquiry of the nature whichi hier proposed, ther wvould afford a strong argumient in fpvour ef re. fmrm for by suichi coiiduct they would clearly evince tisat they iun. posedl taxes on tb-e lower classes, to save their osvn pcackts. Such a Iprinciple of taxation was inconsistent with justice andI equality. IAfter expressing an opinion that lie hiad made out a prinut gicie case Ito induce tlse lioustaro appmoint a conimiittee, the lion. menr,ber con- .citirledi withi the miotioni which lie! had previously reaid, and whichi is inserted above. IThe CHAN,cELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said lieconuld not azree with the lion, miember, that the question whiichi lie lhac brouight forsvard was so imperfectly discussed as lie assuisiied it to liave been, last Year. He could notflatter himself that aisy thingy'which be had said'cuuld convince the hanourable imember andc those who voted with him, that he (Mr. Alaiberly) was wroing ; biut thie subi:ect was disctissedI very fullyv bv sev'eral gentlemen, and it ap- prared to himiti that verY s:imisfactorvr reasons, -were givenl to induce thie hiouse to reject the lion, memiber's measure. In the considleration wlsiic e lie ad sinice givru to cuie subject, nothing had occurred to induc hiim to alter the viewe whiel hie hadl taken, of it on the former occasion, lie could not on the present occasion liolil out the expec- tation that he slioutild be able to ihiow any newe lighit on the subject ; he teas not so ingenious its to fitid new a-gumients uponi every occa- siOis on whlichi tse same subJect Canse unitlr discussion. He woultl, hiowever, very SlI "trtl state tile reasons wivi lie could not acquiesce in the hon. mernbcr's isiotioti. The lion. melniber lied recommended his propo-sition on two 'grounds,. The fiTst ground was, that it was more eccunoniical thmtii the preszent systent; amid the Second was, that it wai imore just. First, with recgardl eo econotiuy, the lion. miember cositende(I that a mnuch greater expense was incu'rredi by dividing the tatx tipon tusal and beer, than would lb eperienced by .collecting tlse whiole duity on tile first article. The lion, member atteniptedi to psrove the isijuistice of' the existing svsteriis by say ing that it relievedl the rich at' the expense of the por.With respret to the ex- piense of Collection, lie couild ionly repeat what lie liad said las't session,-nanliehv, that it was false to assuine that the expense ot1 Collecting the beer duty, amnounted to as~ nitchl as it was stated to be in the excise returns. Excise officers svere not charged withi the performnance of one particular du-lty; btut the samne individual who wras employed in Collecting dlie duty ots beer was alto emsployed in coliecriti, t'ile duties on miale soapl, Cantdles, or any other duty ini whichi it mlighlt be fbunt~ convenienit to emnploy hims. It was perfectly true that vari- ous expen ses, whlichi heel nothing whlatever to do w-ithi the par- ticuliar items' to whilich thiey reierred, were includled iii the tax returns. The honotirable' gentlemian mlighit say that suchi a practice was exceedlingly absurd ; bult it was obvious that if an indtlividual were etiuployed th,' srame diay inl collecting va- rious iternis of taxation, it was imipissible to tleternisine hiow miuch expense teas incurred in collecting 'One. and how miuchl htcollecting Ianother, aii(Itl threfore it lizippeneeI thatthe whsole expsense was placed Itinder one headl. He could isot agree with the hots. mmhri uliinliiiig that the plan which he prompased would, if cacricimlinoe- ctit (15, shfiect a saving of :300,hh0lll. Inideed. he could not undrtn how thec hornorrable isiember could mnake that caclto withiout ascertai,nimig tile exact expense of the presciet moeofcl lecting tlse beer duties, Ile was likewise at a losstokw hoiw the lion., ineniiber could assumne,' that if thle presen it on malt, which was already- sufficiently higli to induce atteipst he Mitde to ev'ade its paymente, were dloiblet , an addlitional sistu woiuld not be given to itidividthials to escape froui its opseration. And it'tlhat were, as it mnuse be, the case, would it not. be ncecssary to aug. ulelist thle number of excise officers to prevenst frauds? The honour. Iable imeisiber had stated, thwet it w:.s not his object to decrease thle amountofsthe revenule, but Itisplan would hiaveteliateffbet. Thcaritountn of malt upoin whirl, the duty was paith in thlelustyear w-a%27,OilO.000 bustihels, If, as Cite lion. meissber prop,sed, sin additional dluty werer pro'ptoNed u1pon tlsat quatitits' of nialt, the re-venue would sustaini a loss of 300.0001, as cottspttre1 with thec anioutit which it ,ow receivedI front thle duties on malt antI beer collected separately. But Ihis chijef Objectionl to else lion. niunober's plan w-as, that by itniosingadditional dutY on nialt, the isetise Would atiginient thle attempts to evade Ithe thutY, to ecuente'ract which freshi excise officers mnust be appointed at an additiutial expense, weiichi w-ouldl pro taurU,i dimsinish else benefit mhtihe hiSlon. msember expuected the public would dierive fromn the adoption of h,~s nieature. Thie lion, mnember asserted Chlat thie ope. ration of the tax oin beer was unequal, antI called upoti hiint, in 1furthierance of tilse Princilile which lie had hiniselfpiromidgteted., to :conssent to its repeal. ALstrecteidly Spesking, he couild not help ac- ,knowledging that the tax operated onequal1y ; thlat -was to say, the nYi~-t usedi iii beer brewed lbr sale was Chtaiged with an amount of dluty b~6'ond that wVhiCh was chiarged on miale employed in beer wchil teas coi,',uun.:?d bY tChose whlo brewedl its. butther1 itsliould be recollected tisti perons cud rewe Cluirowt ber. culd not brewat tiie saise rateI as thgreatbrewes. (feer.)A nd houghthe formner paiel le-ss in duty, the tid nt py lsson he -hoe tanthe latter. The lion. rlitnm herlie aetined.ansoga oter hitgs.that all thos.e who puTchas- ed ber sere pot, nd tat al thselwo breteed beer for their owisi csossumption were rich. (Hear.) That c-as a most extraordinarv assuniption. Nearly every individual in this metropoli. swhich in'. cludled a very large portion of the nobility and gentry of the kingdom, purchased tCie beer which he consumeda. Nearly all persons living int great toevns, in easv circumstances, also purchased their beer. (Heair.) f)t the other hand, there was a vast numlier of persons in very poor ciretimstances, in all par:s ofthie country, who brewed their owrn beer. (Hear, hear.) lIe knew that to lhe the case in the part of the country syitis which lie was best acquainted: and lie was well informed tlat in tee cotenty of lork it was: quite comnuoon for sniall farmers, and even artisans, to brew the beer which they consuiied. (Hear, hear.) If, therefore, as the lon. imienber supposed, the transter of the duty from beer to malt swould be a beinefit to one class of the poor people, it ivocild be an injury to that class to which lie had just alluded. But the proposed chanee was objectionable ots another verv itiiportant ground. Ifit wesre effected, it would in many instances drive those who now brewed beer, which was shared by thsenselves and their families, to seek for enJoy-ment in pttblic houises. (flear, hear.) A niost penriious systemn would thus be introduceil into faniilies, the members of swhicis at present derived great benefit in a iimoral poitit of view from sharing their beer at hionie. Une wosrd wvith respect to what had fallen from the lion. tnember on the subject oftthe deterioration of beer. lie would not for a mnoment arguie that a tax was per se goodl be- cauise it prevented the deterioration of the article to which it applied. But when it seas proposed nor to reduce tthe amount of a tax, but merely to transfer It, he thought it was a very strong argument against the change, that it did not give Cothle consumner the incidental benefit of protection fromn fraud whirs resulted from the existing system. 'ihoughi the lion, member seemed to tihinhe that the con- sumer would very easily detect frauds in the composition of beer, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had krowtn a great num- ber of cases of fraud, and some had beets perpeteatea very recentlv, by individuals who vWere i,nsicleyea a )b verY TeSpectabl in their line of buksiniess, whichi woald never hr .ve been discovere by the sugge-stitin of the conumer'g-palate. (ULcear.) Re had'o the present occasion done nothing more thani rcs.peat the argument whichbhhad advanced last year, in opposition toathesame measur whichbthe right hon. gentlemian now proposed. 'LFhebouseupon tha occasion hadt proved, by7their decis.ion, that tiDey did not conside' those arguments so unsatisfactory as the hon. member opposito hac represented them nto be. (Hear, hear.) The tight honl.gentlemar conlclnded L( gi expressing hiis intenition to 6ppose the motion. Alr. R-L aiE xnpressed his suirpriste at the obsetvation of the right hon..gentlesa that no cronomy in the collection,of the duties could arise from tlje adoption of this motion, as the sahaie numnber-of offi. cers must still be employed. WVhy should thatbha s? Would the righitlion,.gentleman suffer the.question to beput to rhechief officers of excise-" Do y-ou not now, in appointing thte number of officers in one district., so apportion thiem, as thait their whole timie mpust be emplo;ed P"Tire answer would be In the affirmative, and then whiat becam-e of the right hon. gentleman's argument P The fact was, there was no timeso clo-selv kept as that of the officersi of ex. else; andI although he would ooi say. that the reduction in the public expenditure WOUldI be exactly in proportion to the alteraton in the amlount of the duty, yet in the expense of collection in the breweries it mtist be consider-able, for therethesame number ofofficers could not hereluired 2s on the present scale, their duties being necessarily di- minilsl,ied. XVithi regard to the great inequality, thie right hon. gent, deniedl that it was to the extentiniputed; Uut whvshould therebeany inequality is the distribution of the public burdlens ? If that ine- quality were (as it was) admitted, then there was groussd for going into tie proposed torninittee, and it was of little consequience how or uponwhomtha ineualiy pesse. Te righit hon. gentleman had been raise in hs finncialstateent,forte anxiety wh.c ~ a avowd t dojustce o al clsse eqall in apppe.rtioning the Public burdns.Why id e no prcticllyapply that principle hiere? Indpenentoftrejstieoftheclam,there was also policy ; for if hu aicwer taen ff he rewrie, te cnsuption of beer would, he had no doubt, increase. (Her)Tn the agricuiltural interests oughit also to support the measue frtevalue of the in- creased demandl for barley, wvhich would Ibliow its adoption, woql4 far outwvegig the operation of the transf'er of tIre duty upon the agri- cultural classes. WVhy-,following up the right hon. iete's principle- that all classes of th'e commiunity should be ta; in equal pirapor. tions wily nut imlpose the beer tax x;poin all, as well as the! house tax ? He was sorry that hiis hon, frienid (Mr. 11aberly) had, in thiis stage of the proceeding, divulged whiat his intentions were if thiev' went into acommittee. He should have confined himselfio the inequality andc inijustice of thep resent plan, and left the substitute for futur,o-nisideration. Hedeinied that any injurious consequence to thie exczse couldI follow fromn the tranisfer of the duty to malt; and he in8taoee4 the maniner in which the late altera tion in lyeljild,wlrich was analogous, w4s rarrle4 into effect, as 4. pxoof of the practical facilitv of the operation. l3elievn~ fIttoly'the beneficial tcnentenyof the tmiotion, it rhoultl have hils corial support. Mr. WODEHOUSE said, that although he thought the present propositioni objectionable, yet, as the tax was generally believed to bear in unequal proportions upon the community, he wishetd tq see csoine remnedy (not thiis) applied. Ailaking this prelimiinary ad- miseion. he must also say, that when the honouirable mover adl- vanced the position, thiat the whole supply of the breweries was coinsumed by the poor, anti none in any thing like a due proportion by the rich, he siaid that which wvas quite preposterous. Mr. MAIABBRLY deniedt that he had used the argument in Aill unqualified sense. Mlr. Wc)DEHOUSE resumed, ind sad that althiough he might not have used the hon. mreinberls wvords, yet lie thiought he had not uris-stated the teniour of his argument, and he was positive that the lion. meniber liedl insinuated thlat the Chancellor of the Exchequer persevered in his piresent views, in a base conipliance with the feel- ings of tile country gentlemeii. The lion, gent. had done the same tiring last year, when he promiised, in inagnanimogs terms, to hold theni up to public notice; he had, he supposed, done so by the pre- sent mootion, andI he wisheid him joy at the result. The hon. niember had said, that if the duty were transferred, he was ready to concedle any,&penalties to prevent abuses regarding mialt; but was lie riot aware of theenorrilous penalties and Testrictions which at present arffcted that trade? The first payment of the malt-duties to Government wa-s in the mnonth- of October, and thiat wag tire time miost essential fhor thfe smiall farmier to go and seek a market. Mr. MAI3ERLY was really sorry to interrupt the honour-able gentleman, bi&tlhe was tnlisapply, g thie argument he had used re- specting distillers, whn htransfred it to the question of malt. Mr. WOMUOIUSE wvas sorry to hiave mnisunderstood the hon. mnember, althouigh he thon"hlt he liad not misapplied the general teniour of his arg'umniit. 'ihe hon. member, in effect, proposedthtlat thie present iiialt duty of 20s. per quarter should be augmented to 4Os. Wlould not that Operation materially a%fct the whole mialt tradee flelhad considlered tliiisubject attentively during the last ses- sion, and had refrainedi froin discussinag other topics whichi bore mlore upon the general !question, fromi a wishi riot at that time to emibarrass tire UhaCefllor of the Ei,jclequer when he was on thle eve of putting tIre wh-lole of thle fiscal duties of the couintry upon a new iboting; but he miust %ay, thatt the measure adopted at the pe- riod to whichl lie alladed (the medium beer bill) bad comnpletely failed in its operationi. The lion, member had gone at large into many d'eIclt calculations to suit hiis arguments ; but he (Mr. Vdehue)mst dissent from some of his estimates--for instance, min a_ase like this, hie pould not conse nt to take onie year by itseif-.. it was a fallacious criterion, for in -ome particular years brewers and malstes peclatd orelarel thn hey didatothers. Ifhie (Mr. Wodeouse wer theefor to trik anaverage, he shiould rathier take te thre yeas befre th latewar, 1791, 1792, and 1793; and coputingit fro them e foud, that although the popu- latin o tie contr wa atthe imeonl sigt mllins1there was a irreatear coinsumption of mal thndrgte years 1821, 1822, and 1823, wheni the. pulto ha inrsed to 11,000,000. (Hear.) Fiehad already si,ta though he could Pot conicur in this motion, he wvas anxiu tose the duty on mnalt lowered, from a conviction that the redutio would be 4ttcnatqd with enonssous benefit to the people and to therevenue. Mlr. DENISON would support the-motion, because he tlhought his lionourable friend hied demonstrated that the alteration would save a large sum for the revenue, while at the same time it would israterially- serve tIre poorer classes. The saving might have been, perliaps, over-rated, but that it would he very, considerable he hiad no doubt, and that was a sufficient reason for going into the com. minctte, where alone thiey could ascertain the pr,ecise amount. Thie Cjhancellur of the Exchequer had zaid, that the ricli as well as the poor were supplied fromi the public breweries. This was thec case lie would adnriltin London, but it was siot In town that the richi incurred the great consuniption of beer, but in their larger cs- t.'rblisisinents in tire country, whiere the old style of hospitali ty was maintaineti (hicar), and where tire ridli man could supply hiimself witih the article upon mucli better terms (100 or 130 per cenit. cheap- er) than the pouir 5ierbon. Bothi equity andi justice'ealled for this coin- nuittee : it woiild inicrease the revenue, and give the poor a whiole. some beverage in exchange for drain-drinking. M r. CR IPPS c-ould not concur in the motion, because he thought its effect would be to increase privarte mialting, wvhichi was carrie-d to too great an extent alreadv. Mr. MONCK said; thiat the honour-able mover Was mnistaken in hiso oiion of tire antiquity of tire existing duties, ar,d therefore wogin his3 argtrient deduced froni the supposed novelty of the clutyuonbeer. The tactwas, it was inucholder than thatupon malt, w,hich was for along time resisted bythie landed interest, until the time of King William ; for they, always declared that this duity upon malt would operate like a land tax. Now he thought, that so far frons anrend!nig an inequality by adoptingi the p'roposed motion, thleY WOUld be exactly introducing oete existing onie was only apparent, wh,ile die proposed substitute wouild be real. The true ways of loAking at any large tax was to watch its general opera- tion ; and he deiniedl that in the p resent case the duties were partial. Let tiheni look at the weight which at present fell upon the shoulders of the landed interest. They had to bear almost exclusively the poor-rates.they had exclusively the conveyance of vagrants, the county rates, the Iiigh-ways, and several other local imposts, wyhich did not belong to otlier classes of the community. Why not, upon tire hon. imemiber's plan, go to tine legacy dutiies, which affected personal property, and whiich, as wella others, were gien as a boon to tIre landed interests, to get at sornethin i'ke a d ue pro.por- tion of support for tire exigencies of th saefom the funded pro- prietors?; Ile was firnmly coniviniced, that if the present motion were carried, the poorer classes, insteadl of being served, wou41d be in, jured. Hie denied that thiere was any analogy, as his hor. friendl (Mir. Huine) hathI contended, betwe-en the case of Enrgland and of ~reland. Thiere was no consumption of beer in Ireland, as there was n Enland eiher mongthe ichor potor, for the rielt in that counry rankwin, ad th nor wisky. (A laughi.) Agricul- turein relard as nt brdend wthtie ploor-rates, the land-tax, and uchassssmnts No cocuringin the,opnion that benefits would acrue fom theadoptin of tisotion,h isiust give it hiis apiaa iu ABERLY conitenided that tIre hon. member who hiad spoken last, had, in eff'ect, adinitted tire existence of the inequalit upon rvliich the preserrt niotion was founded. l-ie then diefeddt Proposition, amid denied that the result of' thc proposed alteration ,,euld be to send ponr men to thepLublie housesfor their beverage ; on tire contrary, lie believed it would enable thieirs, by tIre cheaper price of the article which- rmust ensue, topvrocure an adequtate supply for domiestic consumnption. Liord ALTHORP said, thlat he had maturely considered this subject, and weas of opinion that his honour-able friend (AMr. Mu- berly-) was wrong, when lie calculated a larger increase of revenue, in the proportion of the transfer of any particular duty; t wo arnd two did not alwvays niake four in finiancial arithmretic; and it was not at all c!ear that a specific augmientation of the amount of aniy tax mt%st be necessarily accomppaniedl by a correspoirdent increae of revenue. In ibis inttaisce, he thouglht that if the duty were thrown altogeftier uipon malt, tbcre would be found, in the collection of the ravenue, a considerable comparative redLuction. illr. C. SllI I'ffI opposed' tire motion. Mr. PELHAM said a few words, whichi wcre quits Inaudible in the gallery. Tire qutestion beinig loudly called for, Mlr. AIABERLYX rose to reply. He said, that iso honourable member who hiad taken part in the de-bate had attempted to deny the notorious existence of the inequality in the imiposition of th'is Ltrx r while by their own accounts, which the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer couldt not impugn, h lie ad demonstrated. that the prosiosed alterauiton woul(t ectZect a saving for the llcutryti h non of upwards of' 295,0001. a year, in the collection of the revenue. He pledged himiself to bring forward this motion annuallv, so long as be had a seat in the house, and as this unjust and partial tax con- tinued to exist. The house then divided, whiea there appeared- Ayes . 261 Noes . 130 1 Aajority . 104. MII\LITARY FLOGG ING. On the motion that the Mutiny Bill be read a tlhird time, M r. HUM1E rose to move that it be an instruction to the com- mittee to bring up a clause authorizing the abolition of riilitarv flog- ging in great Britain and Ireland, and substituting otlier niildcr pu- nishimeit in its stead. He liad nothing to add to the observations which he had made on aformer evening in favour ofhis present pro- position, except a remarkable fact, with which he had since become acqurainted. He had recently been informed by an officer belonging to the army of Wurtemberg, that during the reign of the late king, flogging was inflicted in it to a great degree, though never with that excessive severity with which it had been inflicted in our own army. I'lie frequency of the punishment at last renidered the soldiers per- fecty callous to it-they considered themselves disgraced by it, and therefore paid but slight attention to discipline. The present king abolished this iisode of punishment, and since his accession no man liad been flogged except in one battalion, which he should hereatler mention. 'the h unishment which had bee substituted in its stead was solitary confnement, and that not for sfny great length of time, the longest period being ten, and the shortestthreedays. There were two stages of this 'unishment, the one being mere confine- ment, and the other canfinememit in fetters. When a man had re- ceived punishment more than twice, he was considered unworthy of the regular army, and was sent to one of two battalions condenined to mere garrison duty. In one of thlese battalions the men were not subject to corporal punishment: in the other, whlich was reserved'for the woral gird 111?St ossb.note offenledrt they wgre. Yet even lwrectsr Peratunihmentwasrare nathesoldier wbostihicoln nuedto offenl I wa dialised ltoethroAm. the armny. The result of this ,sysen I ha bee to estre dscipineto in army whiich ihatl etiel lost unde th ol puishmnt f te btonandI the cane. All the officer of heary er oignalyavrs t the chiange; but the efteces o it ad ee soadantgeus,tht teyhad now become thoroughI3 als lssdificlt i gttig he itoit. Why, then,ishould not, simiar epetietaberediorow army? W1e were busily en. gaeiin removing frmour civili code alf pu-nisihments whiceh ,s 'voured of thebrutalityobabou timnes; why not remiove thbta also from our militarj cd? Hdid not wish, to change the exist- ing system in our troop onfrinstations; hle merely wished the abolition of' militaryfogntoh tried as an experiment among the troops in the B3ritish Islns H therefore trusted the house would niot object to the mnotio whc bh ad just submitted to its serious consideration. Sir HIUSSEY VIVIAN contended that the owrof flogging was necessary to mlaintain the disciplin ofte itish ry u admtte tht i ws te plic ofevry commander of a regi'ment to abstain, if Possible, from thle exercise of it. (Hear.) In that opi- nion he was supprted by the authority of every o fficer with whoin he had conversed fo,r all of them had adinitted, at the same tinsc that they lamented, the necessity of inflicring, corporal punishment on the common soldier. From hiis own experbence, he was convitic. ed that the discipline of the army would be materiallv compromised if the house should determine to agree to thie proisosition whlichi was then before it. Some 9 or 10 vears ago hie hadt the commiand of a regiment about 1,000 strong. Ofas sudden, a remarkable increase of off'enices took place in it. His attention was naturally attracted to the cauise of' it, but he loolked for it in vain, until he wvas told by hisq adjutant, "' The mien have got it into their heads that Sir Fran-'. eci Burdett hias done away witlh corporal punishmient, and are there- fore thiinlking that tiscy niay' (10 whatever they please." That s uch a feeling should have eristedl amonig the pri'ate soldiery, would not appear surprisjnig to any person wyho considered the materials of which thley-were composi0da circumnstanee wihich was very essential to a rigt conclusion upon this subject. Now our arMy was re- cruite. fromi the lowest orders of society, anti the recruits were iii general, to say tue beat of themn, mien of the wiltlest descri-ption. It was, perhaps, owing to this very circumstance thiat our army had reaclied its present iheighit of' lorv and dlistinction ; for it was ge- nerally observed, that te soN~er' who was the first to break over the barrack-.wall, was also the first toL leap over tile enemy's fortifi- cations. Over men of this chiaracter it was necessqary to exercise -strong control, since, if trheywerenot controUed theniselvQs, it wvas not itaiprobable that they, might attemptto control others.?Thebiesettingsin of this dgacripeton of mel~n was druinkenness. Now hie did not mean to s~aly that every man who got drunk ouight to be flogged-Far fron it iractice in his own regimens had been very different; but hdimento say, that thg power to flog any man who had so offended should stil renm,ain in the hands in whichit was mow vested. It was said.,tliat-olitaryvconfinement w,ould have as strong an tffect upon thie'men as severe flogging. He would ask the advo-. cates of this' tew mode of punishment' whbat they would do under the following circumstances ? It was svell known to every officer in the service, that about the settling day, there was nearly always a great increase in the number et' offence-s; indeed, it wits not extra- ordinary to hiave fifty or sixty meni offending at oncec. Now., could he place eanch of th'ee mnen in solitary confiinement ? And if' lie couild, what wot;ld be lea eff'ect? W hy, that lie should be cetnpelled to punish those who had not offended, by throwving upon their shouldern the duty of those who, liad. '(Hear, hear.) )H rnust like- wise object to the substitution of extra drills for corporal punishment. The drill was a noceassary part of the discipline of a regiment' andl he did not like the idea af bringing it into contempt with those who must be subjected to it, by td~aking it an ignominious puinishment. There was not, however, aniy of these objections to a punishment by court-mattial;' it hung over the headl of everv offender, and, as none of them- knew on whom it mighit fall, it kept'all in a state of salutary. alarm. Allowin,g, how4ever, that s;olitary confinement and extra drill mighit have, the proposed effect in time oi peance, what was to be done in timne of war ? Whilst an army was marching through ani enemy's country, bow was the straggler or the marauder to he consigned eithier to extra drill or solitary confinemnent ? (Hear, hear.) It had been argued, that the dis~organized state of our army, duritig thle retreat to Corunna showetd the iniefficacv of the severity, of' our'punishments. Buit to this argment he begged le;z%c to reply, by statiiig that our army wvas at that time disorganized, not so tauchs fromi want of dis- cipline, as fromi the absolute state ofrexhaustion to whIichi it was re- ducedl by the fatigues and privations it had undeigone. As lie hadi upon that occasion broughit up the rear, he might lie permittedl to claiin some credit wvith the hoetse, when he statedI that many of our brave fellows tdid not receive any provisions after leaving Astorga. Hunger, it wats 4aid, woild break through stone walls;- and it couldI not surprise apyl reflecting person that many of our poor stragglers did upon that occasion take by force those roviioiss which they could not get by any other xseans. TeFec army, howvever, wvhose Iiigh d1'pn- a en oiic xold nafre vn iginterretreat throughi the south of France, a country which aboundled in provisions, ana from whiich we drew plentiful supplies a-fter thecy had left it-the French army, he repeated, in that retreat, niot conducted in a hurry, for it retreatetd in regular movemnenr from Nivelle to Orthes, fromi Orthes to Tarbes, and front Tarbes to Toulouse-.had comitnuited so mnany atrocities on the property and persons of the inhabitants, that they literally welcomed th;e ritish soldiers as so many liberators. '(Hear hear.1) Indeed, French writers oni the subiect had recently admitted , that the perfect discipline whieichon'~r army then obs~rved, w,as worth to it as mnuch as 10,000 miets. (Rear, hear.) The gallant officer then proceeded to observe, that at present he thiought that commandisqg officers- mighit preserve thie disciplinie of theit- regiments without flog- ging, because, in general, they tlid not consist of miore than 250 men, who were for tnhe most ta?rt selected for their good character, whose places coulti easily be filled up, andI to whom' it would be a heavy punishmient to receive their discharge. But wlhat would be the case, when regim-ents consisteti of 1,400 or 1,500 men ? or wulien, as in the last war, so hilgh a bounty wa!s offered, that it was no un- utsual thing for men to desert from one regirrent, and to enlist in soo- ther, for the mere sake of pocketing it? Would honourable gen- tlemen thiink solitary confinement, or an extra drill, a sufficienit punishment for such an offience ? If by anyy means honourable gern- tietinen could instil into our soldiery an idea, nott onily that thiey rere thsemselves distraced by being flogged, but that a regimnent Was also disgraced by haiving a mali flogged it, he thiough t that it woulsd be productive of great advantage to the arnivy; but untilti su-ch aofueeling was generated among thtem, he muist ever contend for the neces,sity, much as he lamen ted it, of' vesting in courts niartial the power of I corporAl punishment. Entertaining such opinions, he wvas obiiged to saY, that lie rcould not giehis consent to the proposition whichi had been) submitted to Thev house by time lion. memnber for Aber.. deen. (Chieers.) Sir R~. FERGUSSON differed from his gallant friend who had juist addressed the hiouse. H-e thought that the experimnent proposed by hiis hioti, friend the member for Aberdeen could never he imade at a more auspicious inomienit titan the present. (Hear.) Withinn his own experience, a g-reat change had taken placee inl the punish.- ments of the armni','. henhe first had the comimand of aregiraent, he was of opinion thgt its discipline couldI not he preserved without the itidfiction of corporal pun islimelit, and he had, in conisequenee, he spolke i t with reg-ret, often ordered its infliction. Latterly, lie had ad~opte&d milder measures, and the result of the changze hail ibeen ad- inilrable. (Hlear, liear.) As the qlause proposed by Ihis lionourable frieimd limnited the expri t to the troop's it home, and as the bill to whiceh it wvss to be.ettaclied was vo ted annually, he should cer- tainly give it his support; for he was coinvinced, 'that if the soldier was at present guilty of any great crime, the sooner his regiment got -rid of him the better. (1-lear, hear.) If Isis honourabie friend had proposed to extend his eXDeriment to the troops on foreign ser- vice, he should have opposed it, because lie was convinced that on the line of march discipline could nJot be preserted, except under the present system. Hie considlered summary' punishmients undler suchI circumstances to be no less essential to the safety of our armies, than to the maintenance of cur, natioiial character. (Hffear, hear.) Lor-d PAb4MERSTON observed, that there wa ohng for him to adtd, aftir the execUent speech which hiis hon. antI gallant friend behind him hatl made upon this subject. I-e shotild resis,t the mo~ tion because it took from the eamniainder's of tlme armY a power that was absolutely necessazy to its wvell beinig. 'The house then dividled, whlen thecre appeared- 8 Foir the amendnient. 47 1 Against it, 127 [ Majority,80 On oulr re-adimission to the gallery, we found Mr. HU.ME add(ressinig the hodse. lie was adverting to the manner in 'rhich the purchase of" commiissions was at present effect- ed, contrary to the regulation of the CommianelerAon-hief, by whi~b a certain su'm only was altlowed to be given for coimmissionis.li believed many persons in that house were not aware of the dteclara- tion which officers miade when ther purchased promotion. That de- claration -was as followas-" I dlo declare and certii'r, onl thel word and honoutr of ani officer and a gentleman, that I dlid not allow it anY way or maimer, miore than the sum of -, as th fair value of the said comimissioni." And und(erneath were the following words-` I hereby alsok declare, that I have uiade no clandestinie bargain with respect to time said commis6sion." INO- lie (Mr. lHums) understood, that inotwithstanding this declaration,titere was scarcely oine case in ten, whiere officers receivedl their coinmis. slone at the regulation price, thoughi they) thus certified that fact. The Comm-fander of thie Forces anti the Secretary at WIar could not be inrnof what was done, anti ought, therefore, to cancel such at uselssnod paiiiful declaration. Y'ear .alleryear, the jobbinig anti traffic in conimnissions se-as carriedl on ;aiid he believed there was not an officer wiso didl not consider this to be a megtilation %whch otu""i immediatelytobe discontinued, Witli a viewv to the attainmnent Of this object, lie mieant toniove for the introdluctionof the following clauseinta ttime bill-"And be it further enacted. that fromi anti after the passing oftiis act,no officer.slishl be requ,ired orallowed tomake a.ny deelasation on his word and honour as a gentleman es-en with the~ coiicurrence of his commanding officer-, wlhich, by t;e circumstances of the service, lie may' be compelled to) violate." Thg situation of officers, jn contseqqAence of the existence of the pzceret declar-ation, was exceedingly unplessaist ; they' were obligie to certify- on their word, that wh,ich, ifthey were placedl in . \Rybx timey would be: conipelled oni oathl to deny. He theref'ore hopedi that a respect for tise honouir of the armiy would induce the liousc to appmrove of' this clause. -Sir H. HARDI NGE atdmsitted, that under. the present ordler. of- beers were placed in a mnost unpleasant situation. Fully persuaded af this, lie iad nlade it his duty to inquire into the matter, and he found it was under consideration, in the liroper quarter, to recall this very objectionable declaration or certificate. (Hear.) Gentlenien should, however, recollect, that this certificate was initro- duced to remedy a great evil-he meant the constant traffic in coims- mnissions, by which the officers of the army had been miost seriou'lv injured. The Duke otf York'wai anxioas, by the regulation rela- tive to the price of comississions, to preserve ar(n secure the imterests of the less wealtlhy officers. Under that regulation, it was ihpossible for a junior officur however rich, to step over the head of a senior officer, so lobug as the latter hai the means of ptitting down the stipu- lated price for his conmunission, ivisieli was a point of verv great import- ance. Itcertainly was fitting, in altering thesystemr,to ta.ke care that the door should not be again opened to tlhttt extensive jobbing which pre- vailed before the certificate was introduced. He knew, hosever, that that forni was viewed with hostile feelings by the army; and lie had learnel, fronm a sou2ce on wlbich he could implicitly rely, that mea- suTes were in contemplation for recalling this objectionable certifi- cate. Under these circumstances, ihe conceived it would be wrong to agree to thei clauseproposed by the hon. genitleiuan, and he should therefore vote against it. Colonel DAVIES said, if this objectionable declaration could be removed wvitlmout the interference of that house, he should be per- fect2y satisfiel. If lie could get a pledge to that effect from the Se- cretary at NVr4r, there would be no necessity for pressing the clause of his honm friend; but if he could not get such a pledge, he cer- ganly would support that clause. The gallant officer (Sir H. Har. dinge) had stated that the certilicate prevented jobbing in the army. lie-would as2l, on the other hand, whetber jobbing did isot exist ar the present time to a very great extent? Young men could not pro- cure rank without paying double the regulation price. Lord PALMEERSTON observed,that this was a question of very considerable difficulty-but that difficultv was not, in his opinion, to 'begot rid of by the clause proposed by the hon. gent. Themutni biU had been denorlaiaied " a mass of utintelligible viamses," %nri I. t iotld ot,hewas sure 'be rendered' more intelligible by a clause whih, s i ha ben reaJ, he franklY conifessed he did not under. stan. (ear. Inthe firt Place, th e practice of selling conimissions., takins hedv~ttages anriddisadvrntages ateuigIt,-wat cetainy ex~diet t becotinued in the army. The advantages on-both t;ides were so often iscuse, tflat he weuldu ot enter on thce-subject now, but e wuld ssue it to be a good practice that c6nimissions shold e sld.Provision was thus mande for those who were oblgedto etie,and persesis of highi rank and consideratiort weeintoue to the army. If, then, conlnjissions were to be sold, itwsobvleusly rnecessary that ,orne limits Whouldt be assigne tthamut which should be paid' for thems. 'If' ev-ery officer migh bdorthem according to his miesus and his desire of promotio,iti wsquite clelar that the abuises wouild mnuti, tip' 1y beyondi all caclto.in manly instances,the poor old officer would be quite unabl to contend against the rich junior officer and to correct ti evil a regulation price was fixted on. Hlow, then, was it provided that no more than a certain suLm should be taken? When a commision was sold by an individuai in one corps to an ofricer in nte there was no ditficulty in the case. The Officer who sold aple toeh Cornmander..in-Ch,de for permissior to make the sale, adhwsnot alowed to find hbin own purchaser. If he said, "Let me seli to so and so of another corps," there might be a jobbuing in the matter, but the Commander-in-Chief found the purchaser, and there could be no violation of the rule.. Then take the case of a comnmi.ssion in a regiment, in 3u0. cession-.suPpose a majority. Thie sesijor officer hadl the pre- emption for that commnission....he had the first right 'ra purchase, if he had the nieans. An officer thus situated could haye no wishi to pay- more than the price for which, under the regulation, he mnight claim the commission. The sienior captain haLd only to say-.." I w-ish to purchase, and here is my money." In thkese twi, cases, there was no chance of an infringement of the regulation. Bitt it was not so wlien there wvas an individual in the armoy wbo was ncot really disposed to sell, but who was temnpted to give up his cor.. mlission, to miake way for the promotion of others. Then a sub- scription was entered into by the officers to purchase his commnissiork at a hiigh raite, toinakeway for the dlesiredpromotion. Inthat instance the probabilitv wvas, that a miich larger sum woald be given for the commissior tl;an it' was intrinsically worth. This was the only case in whiich the reg-ulation was at all likely to be violated. (11r. Hume. across the table-" the case of exchange.") TIhat was alto,.ether different. An officer swho was anxious itc exchange oni half-pay. never found thepnerson. who was to receive kis commission. Ile applied for leave to~ exchiange, andl the Cotanmander-in..hier looked to his list, from whbich he selected the individual who waa to fill the situatioln. The inconvenience of the present sysem had, hiowever,been felt,and thestubject had been forsome timeunder the con. sideration of'the Commander-in..Clief( H ear.)It was propo.sed toreme-. dy the inconvenience bs;-'raising the priceof commissions. The Board, he believed, had met, and raised the primsof commiissions to their real value, in proportion to the incemasetof pay. He was satisfied, that ifthe limnitation of priceewere dotte- away altojetlker, it would create very' great inconvenience to the ofgcers themselves. The -]aue othhnorbegtlman would not accomplish the ob.. act which lie had in viev,v but even if it were likely to do so, he trusted thie house would pause before they agreed to a measure which went to remove the certificate entirely. It was to be hoped that they would not interfere, when the subject had been already- taken up ytemltr atotities. (Hear.) Gr H . BENNET said he had, some few yearsago intro- duce-d this subject to Parliament. It was one which siearly con- cerned the honour of the army. Nothing could be more galling to gentlemen than to be called on to put tb~ir name to a paper of this kind, they well knowing that the regiilation to whiich it referred had not been obeved. Under these circumstances, he trusted that thit Commiander:in..Chief and the noble lard would turn their attention to thi' sbject, and get rid of this declaration, It had been said that this traffic was not carried on,-just in thje samne way, as they were told at ties thata stat was never soldain thathous.e, and tbit~ a voter sNv-s never bribed, yet every- body out of the houise. k-new that seras were sold ; and there were not a few persons. who, in going round the house, could point out not onilythe seats that. had been thus obtained, but the sumDs that were paid for therit. ColonelDAW'rKINS spokeagainst the eertificate,which,heszid wee thegr-ef and shame of the army but when the Commander-in..ehief had taken up the question, it surely wvas unnecessary to interfere with snact of Parlianient. Everi, officer in the army was rendered un.. -omfortable, in a greater or less degree, by this jorder. Sir 11. VIVIAN was of opinion that the certifica te should be done s,way, but he was convinced that the m;ode proposed by the hoa. rmember wvas not the correct one. He should therefore vote against the clause. Mr. HlUAE said, that after the reprobation whiich the systeres had mect with fromi bothi sidEs of the house, he would not pre&% kis. motion. He therefore begged leave to withdraw the clause. (Hear.) Tue clauise was withdrawn, and the bill read the third tiinse, anti. passed. The r-eport of the annual duties bill was agreed to..-.ThirdI reading toorw COMM IK1T-T,EE O0F SUPPLY.-.fRISE i 1SCELLANEOUa ESTIMATES. Mr. GOULBURIN, in moving for a' grant of 21,6151. to deftay the expense of the Protestant Charter Schools in Ireland, briefly, stated the reasons srhiich rendered it necessary to callfor Pa largervore.,~ forths prpse,n hepreen, taninthe formeryear. The neces.- sut wa ocasone h th deir ofth Government to relieve tY,e Founlin.hopitl fom he aveandmaitennceof a consid3tra- bienumer f cilden hohadnowarrvedat heage of 13 or 14 year, an whm itwas ropsed o speadoverthediffercnt charter~ Mlr. HUMIE opposed the motion. The Protestant cbarter-src'noois were a miere chiarity, and oxght to be suipported by the funds which had been left for'that purpole. if Parliament were called~upon to grant inoney, it should he for gneral education, and not ~,tr the ser- vice of a particular class. Lat year the right honmurable secre.. tars' pledged Isis word that the stuni demanded thjds year wouldi be'less than it was then. But inistead of thaLt, thbere was an in- crease of 4,6151. He should therefore, bearing in minbd the re- duction promised by, the right honoumible secretary last Year, move, as an amiendment, that 14,000. be substituted for 21,6151t Sir J NEWPORT was of opinion, tha4t the present vote, and three others which followed it, relative to education in Ireland, should be postponed, until a committee of that house, which he meant to nmove for, had fully invei~tigzted end reported their opi-. nion on tle wl,ole of that most impostant question. He concludg4 by miovingr, " That the consideration of thisresolution be posttponed" Mr. GOIULBIURN coutld not c-onsenit that Parliament sbotild withdraw its support from a number of charitable institutions itt ireland, until thie result of the right hon. bart's intended mo!ion wax kniown. Sir M. W1. RIDLEV satid, they wvere now going to vote a sum of' money, anid were told, that an inquiry into th'e subject of educatiott in lrjlnnd was immediately intended- was it then, under these eir- ctunstances. too much, to ask a delay of 10 daso a fortnight, espe. ciallY as these estimates were brought in mu i earlier than usual in the present y-ear ? Al r. C. GRA NT opposetd thea postponem eiit of the motion. Lorcl ALTHORP recommended to his right han. friend to let these voles pass for the present year. The whole subject of educve. tion in Ireland miight be coDnsidiered in the course of the session ; and in the next vear, they would be enabled to decide on the course they, oughit to pu~sue, with reference to the Protestant charter schools and other institutions in Ireland. Mlr. B3UTTERWVORTH spoke in favour of the grant. I'vr. GOLTLBURN said that he could certainly giva no pledge es to the appointment of a committee, Sir J. NEWPORT, in that case, wouild certainly vote fr de, ferring the grant. r.RICIE was sorry to see, for the first time in ten Zea,a e cretarY '.Or Ireland get up, in his place, to defend the p~'rnciplc of the Irish charter-schools. He did say that the grant shol;1i. be sutspended until ir.quiry into the system had taken place 'nod especially he resisted the proposal 'for conntecting the cbrater-schools with the Foundling.hospital...tle last institution tendirg to provide stipply for the fonner, and both, in his mind, being equally objectionable. The charter-schools were exclusive for the education of Protestants on that account he disliked them, Ile disliked any stchool (exclusive> either Catholic or Protestaint; bukt if wye were so deny the CathQlic the power of maintaining such. establishments, whio formied the bulk of the populiation, with what fact could we be supporting themrn a behalf of thc lests numerous class ? The hon. gentL concluded Isis observationls,ly declaring that he took the Foundling~hoz;pital to be, of all public institutions, that which had contributed mnost to the vice en4tothe mnisery of Irelanid. Thegprinciple hiad the same effectinvaria.. bly, whierever it was applied ; and it was a curious fact that in Paris, since the i-nstittition of a FoundLing hlospiltal there, the exposures ot' chiildren hiad increased from the reasto of one in ten to one in three. Sir. HU-IUE said, that Government had pledged itself to an an- nual reduction of the present vote anti he hioped that the coin- niittee would reduce it frnni 17,0001. to 14,0001. Sir G. HILL suipported the original grant. Tuie house then divided, wlhen the numnbers were- For the amendmnent, 35 j For the origitial grant, 74 j Majority. 39. ?4~,400. was asked for the exptuses of the society for dbimoragn vice in Ircland. Sir J. NEWVPORT opposed the grant. Mr. FlUMIE objected to the chargrs fptr printing, stationery, and advertisements, and also to the snlptids paid to officers. A cotiversEioui ensued betwer.'. Sir G. CLERsK, Sir Joisse NEW- 'onr, Air. FHumE~, lr. Jsr'lTTRWn~OnTu, ant1 SIr. GoUL.aUxe, af'ter whichi the ermsubt~as postponled. The followini s'otes were then agreed to: ?18,790 ftir the Asylumn for the E~ducation of Children in Dublin. X4.P,~, ror the Ricfiniond Luinatic Asylum. 7,0)for the Hibernian Society for the Education of SoIldirs' thildren. ?1,601) for the Hibernian IMIarine Society. ?1,878 for the Female Orphian House in Dublin. ?2,44,5 for the Wesuininster Lock Hospital. ?1,400 for M adami Stevens's Hospital. ?3,692 for the Fever Hospital and HBouse of Recovery. ?350 for the Hospital of hicurables. On the motion that 8,9281. be granted for the Roisais Catholic Seminary, Lord ALTHORP took, the opportunity of expressinag his, opinion, that the present re-gulations of this establishuient prevented its being as useful as it might ant ought to be made. If seoume money were to be exacted from the individuals educated in the seminary, either as an entrance or an aninual pIyment, it -would have the effect ot'fti;ing it svith persons removcd from the lowest orders of society, by whom the functions whicl they were deaigned to execute would be better and more advantageoutly perfornmed. Mir. (CnosEt and Sir i oHeN NEWPORtT concurred with the view taken by tle noble lord. SIr. GOULBURN said that the practice recoiinlended by the noble lord did exist, although to a sruala exient. He was impressed with the expediency of increasing it, and lie ho-ea tsc ee ate. futn.re opportu nity, to submit a proposition to thai effcct. beaa SIr. (J. HUT(liINSOzN hoped that the rig,tht hon. gentleman w ould do 5omething to put. this establithikmens upon a more respect- able footing; and unless he did s,o, he would not perform hi duty to After a few worls frinm Mlr. MoN-ccs, the vote was csrried. IMIr. HFUME moved tbat the Chairnan report progress. Ir. BROODEN reported progress,and obtnedleaveto sita on W1 ednesday next. Several bills were forwarded one stage. The silk trade bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com. in,ette,d. Mr. BUTTER I'ORTH asked if any prevision was to be made for waste silk ? AMr. HIE RRIES said, that upon such waste Mc& a; had paid duty on itnportation a proportionate allossance would be made. But up. oTt thrtoim silkl a higher allowance having been made, and which was understooti to include the waste, to miake any further allowance would be okviously unreasonable. DIr. HlUME gave irotice, that he should this day move br opies of themniinutes.ofthe'Treasury relating to the arrears of tlhe legacy duties. The other orders of the day were disposed of, and.t4 gj*g d journe.d. at HALFlrAST TrWLVE O'CLoCV.. .F . IHOUSE OF CO12 lONS, MONDAY. MA11izc 15.