House Of Commons, Wednesd...
The Times, 1824-02-19T00:00:00

Mir. IBYNG obtained leave to bring in a biUl to erect a new oriage over the Thames at Hantmersmith. BEAR l$AiTING. hlr. MARTIN gave notice, tbat he should to-rmorrowD move for the appointment of a select committee to inquire how far the urac- tice of bear-baiting and of other cruel sports hat tended to derud- ralize the people of this country. COL DUTIES. Petitions praving for the repeal of these duties were presented from the foliowvirg places:-From the corporation of Falmouth, by Sir NV. Lzmo-N ; from the proprietors of collieries in the forest of Dean, by Sir V. GursE;. from the parish of Dedham, and also fromn the town of Bariting, Essex, by Sir EjtIANx HARVEY; from the hundred of Stratton, in Cornwall, by Mr. T'Ra , YwE; from the inhabitants and vestrymen ofSt.Pancras,in the county of Aliddlesex, br Mlr. BY-rG; from Beast Harling, by MIr. R. COLBO awE; from lIaunton,inSomersetshire,byMlr.W^avdE;fromSleaford,in Lineoln.- shire, by M\Ir. CseArsw; fremBiShopStortfordandfromCheshunt, by Sir J. SEssrI0HT and from Stoelwel, in the county of Nor- folk, by Mr. WYongisouSx. They were aU ordered to be printed. Sir W. GUISE presented a petidion from Cheltenham, and Sir Joirw SEBnIGHT a petition fromt Bishop Stortford, praying the house to rake 50.11C measures for the better recovery ot small debts. Mr. CARTE R presented a peition from the licensed victuallers of Portsea and Portsmoath, praying for some reduction in the price oftheir licences- CONSOLIDATION OF THE SLA.VE IVAWS. On the motion of Dr. LUSHHINGTON, the house resolved itself into a committee of the witole house to consider the laws regardirg the abolition of the slave trade. He said that as the bill was exactly the same with that which the househad passed wvithout anyobjection in the last session of Parlianient, it was unnecessary for him to make any observations regarding it. He should merely submit cer- tain resolutions to the committee, as the foundation of the bill he intended to introduce. The resolutions were then submitted and agreed to, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. Sir E. H ARVEY presented a petition from the parish of Ded- ham, praying for the abolition of slavery in the WVest indi-s. RECOVERY OF S3ALL DEBTS. Lord ALTHORP asked leave to bring in a bill for the more easy recovery of small debts. There was no occasion for himn to waste the time of the house in describing it, as it was exactly the same bill as hel had brought in last session, and had got pnnted for circulation among members. He trusted that there would be no objection to it, as the evil which it was intended to remedy was of a very oppressive nature. The exipense of recovering debts under 10l. was so heavy, as to render them in most cases scarcely worth reco- vering and as in some trades the debts due to the parties engaged in them seldom amounted to more than 101., it was evident that to them the expense amounted almost to a denial ofjustice, and compelled them to trust entirely to the honour and honesty of their debtors. To put an end to the evil arising from such a defective sys- tem of law, he proposed that in ever, county in England an assessor should be appointed to the sheriW, who should make a circuit through the different townis of the eounty, holding a species of as- size at such of them as the justices in quarter sessions assembled should apnoint. Hle likewvise intended that the cases should be de- cided by the intervcntion of a jury. The noble lord then moved for leave to bring in a bill to nrevent delay and expense in the pro. reedings of county courts, an2 fbr the more speedy recovery of small debts in England and NVales. MIr. J. S.MI ITH seconded the motion, and contended that the poor were exposed to great oppression by trie present method of- recovering small debts. To prove this position, thehon. member stated, that a per. son in hisemploy was sued for thetriflingdebt of 31. 8s. He made no defence wbatever, and the costs of the action amounted to 141. Now he would leave tie house to judge whether any thing could be more op- pressive than sech a system. Individuals were, under its operation, forced into gaol, as was the case ultimately with the individual to wvhom he had alluded, who was arrested for 171. 8s. The solicitor who enforced the process, and who was a very respestable man, de- clared that not a day passed in which he had not a similar duty to perform-.that of arresting individuals for debts which were raised to an enormous magnitude on account of the costs. i,lany persons sued for smalldebts made no defenceto the action,because they knev that if they did, they would involve themselves in still greater diffi- culties. lie noble lord could not, he thought, do a greater benefit to the lower dass of tradesmen than by persevering in this measure, to -hioh h. .ino.,ely hoped nn opposition would be offered. (EHear.) Leave was then given to bring io the bill. RECOVERY OF PENALTIES BEFORE MlAGISTRATES. Mr. D. GILBERT rose to move for leave to bring in a biU for the more' effectual recovery of penalties before magistrates, and for facilitating the execution of warrants. Thc hon- gentleman said, in cases of conviction hefove a magistrate for certain offences, the ma- gistrate was empowered to impose penalties, wthich might be levied by distress. 'Phe state of the law, however, was such, that if the personconvictedapapearedto be avagrant, and had no goodson which a distress could be levied, the magistrate had no right to detain him tilL the fact was properly ascertained; and by going out of the jurisdic- tion of the magistrate, the offeider escaped. The first part of the intended bill would remedy this defect, by empowering the magis- trate, when a person convicted stated that he had no goods or chat- tels, to detain himuntil the matter was inquired into. The next defect in the law which he proposed to rectify was not known to ex- ist until recently. It had, however been decided in the courts be- low, that ifa warrant were directed to a constable, by name, he might follow the accused party out of the mere limits of his parish; but if it were directed to him as constable of a parish, and that he made a caption one foot beyond the boundary of that parish, he was liable to an action for false imprisonment. The second part of this bill was intended to correct this defect. Leave was given to bring in the bilL BANKRUPT LAWS. .Mr. COURTEN4Y rose in pursuance of the motion he had riven yeoterday, to Move for leave to bring in a bill " to consolidate nd amend the laws relating to bankrupts." As the house must be iware of the nature of those laws, and of thie necessity of revising hem, he would not enter into any general view of the subject. It would, however, be proper to make one or two observations on the *ature of the proposed measure. One of the rmain objects of the ill would be, the consolidation of the various acts relating to this ;ubject, in order to present, at one view, the whole state of the aw-to point out clearly who were the persons liable to be mubjected to its eperations, what were the acts which brought hem under its control, and what the power granted by the lifferent statutes. In addition to this, he meant to propose for onsideration, some alterations in the existing law. He vould not state the whole of the alterations he contemplated, but lie vould briefly advert to one or two of them. In the hirst place, he vould propose a clause on a very inportaut point, narnely, the al- owing persons, under certain restrictions and limitations, to do- lare themselves bankrupt which, on accourt of the criminal cha- acter attached to the act of bankruptcy, as the law now stood, they vere disqualified from doing. He admitted there were circum. tances under which this could not be allowed; but, under particular estrictions and limitations, it might be carried into effect. He ihould also propose some alteration with respeet to the uanner in which certificates were to be obtained and g-anted. .le felt very great ditfficurlty in legislating on this point. It could he w1rong towards the creditor if the certificate were too easily ,btained, and it would bc a great hardship if the bankrupt were de- rived of it by theobstinate conduct of a single individual. (Sear, tear.) He hoped, however,that meaons might be devised lo meet he difficulties 6,f ite case. At all evea ts, he should propose a clause in thatpoint. Theleptned gentlemanthen movedfor leave tobring n the bilL Mr. J. SMtITH thought the country was under verygreat obliga- ions to the learned gentleman for the measure which lie was about o introduce, and of which be (Afr. Smith) entirely approved. But, onsidering the situatiou in which he was formerly placed (Chair- nan, we believe, of tiie Committee on the Bankrtspt baws), and in ustice to those with whom lie then laboured, he must say, that the neasure wbich the learned gentleman now proposed was identically he same in principle with that which he (Mr. Smith) brought brward some time ago. He had given up much 'time to the otasiderat4on of this subject, but, however well he might un- lerstand it, he did notpretend to possess that legal knowledge which would enable him to form a bill of such a description as would meet dl objections. The main object of this bill was one which a clever d intelligent soliditor of this city had long been endeavouring to arry into efftect. He alluded to Air. Freshfield, who liad for two years given his advice and assistance, almost gratuitously, on this -Amplscated subject. *He, therefore, should be sorry, if a question .,f this kind were taken out of his hands altogether, without stating how much benefit had been derived from Mr Freshield's exertons. The learned genatleman had alluded to one or two clauses which he meant to Introduce. One of these he was afraid would nieet with very considerable opposition. Ile alluded to that which related to the obtaining of certificates ; and which would prevent the withhold. ing of that necessarv document from the bankrupt at the pleasure of a single creditor. No clause could seserve nmere serious considera. tion than this becausc, to his own knowledge, some most grievous hardships, he would say most abominable injustice, had been suifered by bankrupt4 in consequence of the condijct of indi. vidual creditors who had lIrge demands on them. They had kept their certificates from well-meaning bankrupts, and condemned them to want and misery for the remainder of their lives. e could instance three or four cases of that sort, and he hoped that an end would be put to so oppressive a practice. Ir. Sergeant ONS VOW approved of the consolidation of the bankrupt laws into one system. The decisions under the various acts had rendered a very complicated system of law necessary. HIe joined most cordially in the tribute which lisa hon. friend (MSr. Smith )had paid to a gentlemamn, nuta mcaberof thathouse. lleknewthatindi. vidual w ell, aud was aware how mnuch his valuable time had been de- voted to this subject. The measure which thatgentlemain's industry had so great a share in producing, was, he conceived, the founda- tion of the -resent. 3r. ABMR 1CROM,BY said, if tbe intention of the learned gentleman was to make an altcratioi the existing acts by leaving out certain parts of them, and thus aring, in many respects, the law, he had. undoubtedlv, imposed on himself a duty of extreme dificulty; because there was nothing so diffcult, after aU the de- cisions under those laws, as to say, that heswould embody all that was necessary in his consolidated act, and at the same time pre. serve untoached those decisions. It was an arduous task, and he hoped the public would havp no caus to complain of th. I.Arned g-ntlenas-' U4b?Ui Jie (MlI. Ab_ Inby) en- I tirily App]z0e1-iqf- tire -it act e*r ,siri'giuptey whcldthr & leatneafed rett- Memeat tdminodaee. It was An.appr-a ,Iiona to; the &otbtl qft-brum, aRd tensed io rebe- that riuz 'octie 'Which pnvod.underfthe exstindg -la*-nsbisely, that comaimttUiZnt filct of7snkraptey was 'to be 1 reated' as a criminal at. -A.she 1,ad gt py far, the learded gentlcman,- in his OPInion, Ouf~ht to aYter ~t -whole shape of the bankrtipt laws: he should save ttiem a eliffererreharacter-one more adtapted to the present state of scidety,, and lvttr suited to the great citension of commrercial affitirs. Leave was tlhen giyen to brit in the bill. ISLE OF MIAN. Air. CURWEN rose, purs~nt to notice, to mnove' for documents relative to certain alter-ationsh*ich had been made by the Duke of Athoil in the criminal law of ae isle of Man. The question was of v-ital importance, not to thatsland alone but to all the islands ap- pertaining to Great Britain ;for, if a cbange of this kind .*ere allowed to be arbitrarily msdiin the I-le of Alan, similar changes might be made elsewhere. le would, in the first instance, state whiat was the constitution of hat island. There wa.', first, a Go- vernor appointed by, the Crow: ; there were also an Attorney-Gene. ral, three dempstert, who wa law-officers-a clerk of the rolls-.a highi bailiff"-.. bishop....nd:a vicar-general. Theie were the Council of the Governor. 'Xthere was next the Houise of Keys, composed of' 24 members. Tiese formed a body, by the cOnsent of which laws were altered, char~ed, and aniended - and having re- ceived the avrobation of the srown, those laws had~ fu forte and authority.' he Keys were acouart of appeal from the decsiaon of the dempaters, who were conmon law j udges; and, for the pur- pose of deciding appeatls fromthe inferior judges, had been accus- tomned for centuries to asssemile in what was caled the Teiguwald Court. The Dake of Athol lad, however, entered the Teignwald Coitrt some time since, and axted, that hie wYas instructed by hais Mlajesty's Government not to3ummron the Keys in future to atte-nd thie general gaol.delivery In tie Teignwald Court. He informed thein, that he would diseontilue summoning them to act as a cri- minal court, by the order of the Secretary of State for the 1lo,vie Department; and in tie same breath in which the com- mun&i-Hq1l1 was made, the Court was dissolved. Application was made, as iZ was % ?bj'ct )f such imnportanice to the partIes4, that they npigbt be aliowed W fZRCCt it, itt order that they might remoni- strate with the Government, er appea to NhS housa, This was re- fuse. Apliat~~ ws nxt adefora copy of the speech, which wasprmisd,but u tethsd~',he eleved no copy of the peeeh had cengrated In hiswiyhe Mr.Curwen) aecounted for his not avin intoducd ths suioctby apettion, er a representationi of he act bythepariesag~eve.. owa Court of Keye would soo behel-hu inwha acatin wuld the judges be'placed ? The first ste p wvould be to demur to the Court's comnpetence to try. 'rhe Judgesi had, on the one hand, three or four cenituries of prece. dent for proceeding as they iad been accustomed to do, and there wasopposed to then) the ipfe giiOt of the Governur,fortbcey had neithier thieopinion ofthe&ecretary ofQtato norof thelaw,coffleers ofthie Crown. Under these circumsteces, thejuidges would be called on, contrary to the established form of law, to try prisoners. If they refused, they wouldl be immnediately placed in opposition to the governor, end might be dismissed, without ceremony. There was no court in which they'ould be impeached--no place in which their cause could be argued They n ghp at once be dismissed for doing an act which they conscientiously thought right. One of themi had elremdy been removed, without any form of trial i'aind there wa& no court to whicir he could appeal. Butt suppose the judges did not demur, and that any man was convictea criminally before th em, and the sentence was carried into execution. Then he would say, looking to the decision of Lord Me1iisfield, in the case of the imnpostgqn of- the 4i per qmt. du~ties, after 4'6cnstitution had' been given to thie island where thiey were levied, that they ought to be indicted for a legal murder. He knew this had been described as an act of veageance against the Keys, because they were not as. substervient as the ought to he ; but this was an erroneous view of the ease. The Keys were no more than anv other 24 persons. It was, in fact, an attuckon the ri hta of th'e whole popsle Qf the island, When the island was in the 'hands of one indiyidual, wh6 mighit appoint the law officers and turn them off as he thought proper-who also hiad the nomination of jurors, et sonsorobablyselected from hiis own under-senant.s, over whomh ad perfLcr control-was not the existence of such an establishment, to which there was an opportunity of agppaicng%, of. very great im- porsance for the preservatiun o h irt of the pepegWsi not, besides, a very salutary check on the ignorance of j'uries ? He hoped Governmn~tn would suspend the assembling of thie next Teiuwad Curt utilthQlaww~ clarl atel40 on this subject. The hn. getlema concuded movigforA copy of the in- strutios frm te Scretry f ~7ateforthe Home DepartmeRt to te Dke f Ahol iretin hi infuture not to sutmmon the Keysto he TignalA our in he sle of Alan agreeably to the Mlr. PBEL complained that he had to contend withi the hon. memiber in a double capacity bothi as a mnember of the Ho'use of Commons, and a maember of1the House of Keys I; but the ouestion was=merly, question of law, how far the House of Keys ivas or was sot enildt sit upon every jury trial that took place within the Isle of Mlan. The question was, did the House of Keys form a con- stituent part of every jury trial in the Isle of AMan ; so that the findinig of a jury cottid not be good, nor a sentence be executed in consequenice, the pronouincing of whichi had not receiveadithir as. sent and assistance? As regarded the policy, this propsi tian was so monstrous, that if they had the right, he would11 move to deprive them of it. If such was the law at present, by an- cient custoim, the thing could not be helped ; but he hoped every body would admit that it was suelb a law, as could exist no longer. But the hiistory of the proceeding complained of, as far~ as it had gone, was this--A question had arisen, whether the H-ouse of Keys fonned any part of the court of gaol-delivery in the Isle of Ailan. The! AttorAey-General of the Island was a pplied to (the present Recordier of Livertol), and he gave it as his opinion that there was no custonii of the kind. The Governor then laid the case before the Secretary of Sutae, sending the opinion of the Attormey.Genoral of the Isle of Man, and requesting Instructions: he (Mir. Peel) had then, naturally, laid the matter before the law-officers of the Crown ; andl so far from giving the Governorr instructions to make any alter- ation in the existing law, he had merely transmitted him tine opi. utons of th: Attorney end 15olicitor-General, which confirmned the opiniona that he had already received from his local adviser ; adding, tht ,under the authority of such declarations, the interference of the Hlouse of Keys ought not to bee permittedi. With this explanation, he thoulid leave the question as to the instrctins If the House of Keys thought the opinion of the law officers of the Crown erroneouxs, their rourse was by a ipeal to the Privy Council. The second point of the bon. member's (3AIr. Curwen's) complaint would be disposed of in a noioent. It was said. that one of the Judges of this Court in the Isle iif Man, had been removed from his office. The fact was, that the Individual had been accused of corrupt conduct ; and, on an in- laity, conducted before the Couinci of the Island, it had appeared ~hat there was, at lease, sufficient grounds for causing him to vacate its situation. %Vith respect to thethird point dweltupon by the hoti. .uember,-the residency of thelsle of Man AttorneyGerneral,-.ho (Mr. Pleel) thought that it was dehor.e the que-stion before the house, and ~ught to comneon in the shape of aspecific motion; at the same time he 'eared that the Housec of Keys would scarcely- get a very eminen. British lawyer (and with no othier, for anAtonyenrl as he inderstoo, would they be content) to resd cnttyinte Isle sf Manfo a salary of 6001. per annum.Ontewo, eitseed ao him that he had a full parliamentarygrudfreusn the 3apera moved for by the bon. memnber. Air. ABERMC~OMBY thoug:ht that the House of Keys ought :ohave been beard, before the opinion of the Attorney and Solid-. ~or-General were given. He wished that proceedfings, indeed, now night be suspended, and the House of Keys heard before the Privy cOuncil- The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that he believed that :very docuiment which c-ould be collected upon the question had ieen laid before hjim and his collea-gue, fprior to their giring their )pinions; and, fromn the inspection of aU those documents, it Nas clear, that at no period of the history (as faras they went) of the Isle of Alan, had the House of Keys ever formed a part of the court inf gaol-delivery. The H-ouse of Kevs, not in ancient times, but shout a hundred years back, bedl certainly usurped a right of sum- nonitig juries before them, anti fining them for what'they had consi- lered improper verdicts ; but it appeared, that during the last 40 or 0O years, even this power had not been exercised. He (the Attor- iey.General) apprehended that the rigt hion. Secetary hag given no nstructions uponL the subject. He had merely transmitted to the Iovernor the opinion of the law officers of the Cr-own, conlirma. ory of the opinion which had been delivered by the local Attorney. Pieneral. Since the delivery of that opinioni (which was now full welv moths)thee ha ben moe tan sufficient time for an ap- Sir JA ES MACNTOSH rofesed himself not satisfied vitm te eplnatonswhih iedbee gienon the other side. The ibjcton asles t th atertin o te law, than to the manner if he ltraton.No ha cae eentakn,on removing the juria- 11cti,in of the House of Keys, to provd means for the securing ubstantial jumstice without its assistance. Mrr. COU,RTENAY said, that the present question was not the ights of parties, but a questionL whether the Secretary of State had ctedwron. (riesof 'No,no." Getlemen cried "no," but ic aid"ye;' or,upo th riht f te House of Keys to w'hat it laimd, he ous ofComonswasnotcompetent to give a deli- ion Asit eemd t hi, i tain teoionofhe Attorney nilSolcitr-Gneal,therigt hn.gentleman (Mtr. Peel) had lonealltha he as oun to o: t ws imossblet" say that the eliole juridietiomi of the court of gaol delvr ogt.t have stopped rirtil there had been ttime fQr the Privy Coni oqiuqire into the Ubject The house then -divided, when the numbers were-- For the motion . 281 Against it - 26 Maljority for producingth papers, 2 The report of thet cofmmittee of supl was brought up. The iouse agreed to the resolutions of the committee. The reciprocit of dutiesbIllwas reada secondatime. The Irish clery residencqbill was repadafirst time; to beread second time on thle 1st of Alarch.-Adjourned at a quater before even o'clock. LIST OF THE MIINORITY )f 30, who votedl on Lordi Ntuent's motion for thle production of the Instructions to Sir Win. AZ'urt, as to the neutrality of this Go- vernment, and his conduct in Spain. 3aring, A. Grattan J. Intilby, Sir W, *Vall. B. 3urdstt,Str F. Grahani S. Ma%erly, J. Wood, Matthew lenyon, B. =lume J. hMaberly. W. L. Wilkins, W. 3rougharn, H. Huteh Iaon,Hon.Madorlbanks, S. Wilsomm, Sir R. ampbell. Hot;. J, C. H. Macintosh, Sir J. 'avendfsb, H. Hanilton, Lord Palmer, C. F. Tellers. Derilson, W. . A. iobarts, Colonel Hobhouse J C. Denman, T. Horsyweod, F. Russell, Lord .. Nugent, Lord i"ltIce, E. Hurst, Rt. White. L. HOt41f. OF COMM15ONS, WEDNESDAY, FEE. Id.