Interview with Nick Pope
By: Galán Vázquez
Tags: Extraterrestrial, Extraterrestrial Life, Ufos And Aliens, Aliens, Ufology

11. Mr. Bustinza, who has been recently contacted by some UK researches, doesn’t want to be involved on any matter related to the incident, but has openly stated that Colonel Williams ordered “Whatever you saw out there, I don’t want to personally know anything about it. That is between you and whoever is handling the case”. These orders seem to validate the contact; does it also indicate a cover up?

Adrian Bustinza was definitely involved, and Gordon Williams may well have said exactly what is reported. Even so, the quote only validates that something happened — which I don’t think anyone disputes. As for the question of a cover-up, it’s no secret that both the US government and the British government have consistently tried to downplay the extent of their interest in UFOs, and their involvement in the subject. However, in 1980, while the MoD still had its UFO project, the US government was claiming that it had no such program, and that UFO investigations had ended in 1969 when Project Blue Book was terminated. So the US government couldn’t be seen to be investigating UFOs without contradicting their public position on the issue. This, I believe, is why Gordon Williams wanted to distance himself from the incident. It’s a classic case of “plausible deniability”.

12. Some researchers, including you, have stated that certain critical material (Halt´s audio tape, non-fogged photos, film, radar records) and samples (soil and sap) related to both UFO incidents were confiscated by General Charles A. Gabriel, Commander-in-Chief of USAF Europe, who flew to England from Germany´s Ramstein air Base, headquarters of the USAF in Europe… is there any evidence backing up Gabriel´s visit to the base after the incident? Were the British aware of this action?

General Gabriel’s post-incident visit to the twin bases of Bentwaters and Woodbridge (and his removal of evidence) is referenced in a declassified MoD document dated 16 February 1981, which we published in “Encounter in Rendlesham Forest”. It was also confirmed to me personally by General Gordon Williams, with whom I discussed the case after his retirement from the USAF.

13. Two radar operators from Bentwaters have declared that they detected objects travelling at approximately 20 km / second, plus visuals of round glowing objects with portholes, roughly twice the size of a F-111 aircraft, the same week the above mentioned incidents took place. Nevertheless, no radar tapes nor other material has been declassified, all has rather mysteriously disappeared. Some high command staff have said that the radar was malfunctioning, and that is why there are no radar records (even though everybody knows there are 2 sets of radar, one always on), what is your opinion on this matter? Is there a cover up here?

I am aware of testimony from at least three radar operators (two in the USAF, one in the UK’s Royal Air Force), confirming that at some point during the encounter, a UFO was tracked briefly on military radar, directly over the base. However, as you say, we don’t have any raw data on this, partly because it seems that some radar tapes were confiscated very early in the investigation, by unknown parties somewhere in the government, military or intelligence community. Even I wasn’t able to identify the culprits when I looked at the radar issue as part of my cold case review into the incident. Additional problems were caused by three factors: firstly, some of the radar camera recorders (i.e. the cameras that film one of the two radar screens, ensuring that there’s a video record of the radar data) were switched off at the time of the incident; secondly, while others were switched on, the film proved to be faulty; and thirdly, the situation was confused because Halt’s original memo to the MoD contained incorrect dates.

14. Was there any OSI (Office of Special Investigations) personnel involved in any interrogations after the incidents, allegedly openly speaking about visitors from space and very advanced civilizations? Did they use some sort of truth serum and energetically, almost violently, forbid the witness, several airmen, to talk about the sightings?

I am aware that a number of OSI personnel were involved in some aspects of the investigation. This is what Charles Halt has said about this: “OSI operatives harshly interrogated five young airmen, some of them in shock at the time, who were key witnesses”. He added that “drugs such as sodium pentothal, often called a “truth serum” when used with some form of brainwashing or hypnosis, were administered during these interrogations, and the whole thing has had damaging, and lasting, effects on the men involved”. I do not wish to elaborate on this statement, but it is no secret that a number of the witnesses have spoken openly about this. Indeed, Jim Penniston has made a detailed statement about it, which we included in “Encounter in Rendlesham Forest”.

15. What is your interpretation on the quote by Margaret Thatcher “You must have the facts and you can’t tell the people” a famous sentence told to Georgina Bruni, British researcher specialized in the Rendlesham Forest UFOs, who wrote a very complete monograph on the case, once she asked Mrs. Thatcher about the incident?

Mrs. Thatcher frequently said “you must have the facts”. It simply meant that details were important to her, and that it was important to be well-briefed (on any subject), so that informed decisions could be made. “You can’t tell the people” is more difficult to explain. It may have meant that if people deeply believe something, nothing you can say to the contrary will ever dissuade them from their view. But it could mean (as some have suggested) that she was aware of some deep and terrible truth about the UFO phenomenon that the government felt could never be shared with the public. Georgina Bruni was present when Mrs. Thatcher said this, and I wasn’t, and as Bruni and Thatcher have both now died, we are unlikely to learn exactly what she meant, unless some new written record emerges. It is interesting to note that Georgina Bruni was the first person to acquire the declassified MoD file on the Rendlesham Forest incident, having successfully lobbied the UK government to declassify and release it.