Episode 3: Marcus & Brenda “What would it be like if I still had mom?” on the Sorry To Hear That podcast
By: Sorry To Hear That Podcast
Tags: Grief And Loss, Mothers, Black Church, Podcast

Below is the transcript of the podcast episode of Sorry To Hear That — the episode called Marcus & Brenda — What would it be like if I still had mom? Listen to Sorry To Hear That on any of your favorite podcast listening apps, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts.

Note: Sorry To Hear That podcast transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

CJ Williams: 00:00

Photo by Barbara Alçada on Unsplash

[Music] When I think about the loss of a loved one, an important question comes up, what if? What if my person was still here? Who would I be? What would I experience with them? What have I missed out on? What have I experienced because they’re gone? How am I different? But all of that starts with what if? What if? My guest today is someone that I got to explore what if. The wonder and curiosity and knowing that your life had been changed because your person, how has their death made you and shaped you to be the person that you are today?

Marcus: 00:45

I work as a hospital chaplain and a pastor. You know, for me, definitely the experience of dealing with my mother’s loss has played a role and sort of the direction, my spirituality and my walk. It’s pretty instrumental I think to the work that I do. I’m pretty clear at this point that a lot of that comes from, from that experience with mom.

CJ Williams: 01:10

While Marcus is a pastor and hospital chaplain. As he explained, I wanted to note that this podcast is not necessarily about religion, but instead sharing real stories of loss and change from who we were to who we are now. His story is one that we can relate to.

Marcus: 01:30

[Music] You know, I, I’m sort of aware that I have not talked extensively with anybody about this. It’s not something that I necessarily intentionally shy away from, but I think because, I don’t know, because it’s been so long or because I think I’m quote unquote, think I’m through it. It just doesn’t come up very much. Usually doesn’t come out. So this is probably the most extensive conversation I’ve had about her and that whole thing. And as I’m sitting here answering questions, I’m like, wow, I really haven’t thought about that or I haven’t thought about it in a while or it’s almost like it got filed away. And so I’m sitting here like that may not be a good thing.

CJ Williams: 02:18

[Music] This is sorry to hear that. A podcast for people trying to understand grief and loss. I’m CJ Williams.

Marcus: 02:35

My name is Marcus and I’m here to talk about my mom, Brenda.

Marcus: 02:41

She was pretty quiet. I guess you would say traditional. She dressed well and was very much about supporting and being supportive in the home. She definitely got animated when it came to matters of her children, so when she felt like she needed to advocate at our school or anything like that, she definitely was energetic in those areas. She was a very spiritual woman. She had a couple of really, really difficult illnesses for most of her life. Certainly all of mine. Those just kind of got worse. As the years went on. I think it was pretty evident that those things wore on her.

CJ Williams: 03:22

What was the experience with your mom? What happened to her?

Marcus: 03:26

The long and short of it is heart disease. She had dealt with MS and diabetes for years and years. She had three kind of whammies. When you talk about just cardiovascular, and then MS, and diabetes.

CJ Williams: 03:46

When was the last time that you spoke to her?

Marcus: 03:50

So she was nonverbal at that point, since the stroke, so there was no two way verbiage, but she was able to communicate in other ways that she could and seeing that frustration was hard too. And again, when we talk about looking back and wondering like, man, what, what kind of conversation would I love to have with her now?

[Music]

CJ Williams: 04:27

So did you know that your mother was going to pass away?

Marcus: 04:31

I did at some point. I don’t remember how soon it was, but I, I felt in my heart, I think I was making my first hospital visit. I sort of felt in my heart that God was clearly saying, look, it’s this, this is going to be over soon. The suffering is gonna is going to end. Um, and I really, you can literally felt like I heard God say that and I just burst into tears. Um, so I felt like I knew it was coming and that worked for me and that helped me of course until, until you get to the grave site and that, you know, I was relatively okay. Like all the way time up. Even during the funeral I was pretty composed. And then the grave side service, the committal is just, is where it, it just it went to hell. But I did feel like I knew it was coming and I felt like it was an act of God’s beneficence because she had been so sick for so long and was so down about it.

Marcus: 05:34

But yeah, I, I, I did feel like I, I knew it was coming and so that it needed to, needed to take its course. I ended up stepping back, stepping off the wrestling team, which was very, very hard for me to do. I just, I was just having a hard time and that is one of my regrets. I wonder if I could have just fought through it, but it was, it was, it was tough. And again, it’s like, gosh, what, what, what would this be like if, uh, you know, this had been, you know, that event had been you know delayed a few years? What had happened after college as opposed to right before, you know, it’s just so many things just kind of like, hmm, I, you know, I really wonder what, what would this have been like?

CJ Williams: 06:24

Marcus was in his senior year of high school when his mother died right before Christmas. Do you remember your senior year of high school? It was a lot. So then add in a death of a parent.

Marcus: 06:40

It all kind of happened in a time of my life where I was figuring myself out spiritually and obviously other ways there seniors and college stuff and you know, just a real period of change and transition. I think I was definitely growing in my spiritual journey anyway, but the kind of closeness and comfort from God that I’ve told him, that experience seemed to grow it seemed to experience. It felt in that experience, particularly after, after her death and after the funeral and a lot happens when, when it’s all over and the visits stop and the cards stop and all of that. Um, so I think in that period, uh, I continued to grow and it just, it just, I sensed a tug in that experience and a tug to share with others the love and comfort of God that I felt I had received. And I feel weird about that sometimes cause it it, you know, it’s, you know, is this, is this what was what it was supposed to be like? Is this what was supposed to happen with it? You know, did I get that right? Did I navigate this correctly? Especially years later now,

CJ Williams: 07:54

What do you think you could have been doing differently?

Marcus: 07:57

I don’t know what I could be doing differently. I’m, I’m confident that I would be quote unquote successful, whatever that means. That loss was so significant that it, I mean it really was, you know, many ways earth shattering and it is for where I was, it was really, really substantial. You know, I’ve thought about that a lot. Like what else would I be doing? It’s a significant enough change that it alters kind of your course of action, you know? So I went to college after, you know, the year after that studying religion, planning to go into ministry. You know, I just, I just kind of wonder, wonder what this would look like if things were different?

CJ Williams: 08:39

Who would I be if this was different? I like your word wonder. To me, I keep hearing when you say wonder, I also hear a little bit of intrigue. It’s like sort of mysterious. What would have been behind door number two?

Marcus: 08:51

What could have happened and then when I have more student loans or less? I mean would I be richer or poorer, you know?

Marcus: 08:58

I mean it’s sort of like, I guess it’s sort of like where they call it the butterfly effect. Like how you change one thing and you can, and so many other things go differently. Um, I really think about that. I do, I do think about that and where I am in my life now and in my ministry now, I certainly wish she was here.

[Music]

Marcus: 09:32

What is grief like? I remember learning in my professional training that grieving takes at least a year and I think that’s extremely important to remember. And I tell patients and families, I tell congregants, and I say it as an as my intention in saying it is don’t feel like you have to rush this thing or don’t even think that you can rush it because, guess what? It’s January and you ain’t been through Christmas yet. So just kind of get ready and get ready for the birthdays, anniversaries. And so I think we need to recognize that it takes time, sort of a, an acute or an active grief versus a more settled grieving. I think there’s an important distinction to make there. And then that sense of the grieving is never quote unquote finished. I think you might be able to reach a point with it that I use the term under control very loosely, but you’ve got it in a place where you’re able to sort of move forward in other areas.

Marcus: 10:32

Not everyone gets to that point. And I do think it’s a misnomer to say that we grieved in a sense of we completed that project, like it’s done, we did it and it’s over. So I think the grief just sort of moves through phases or stages or manifestations. So that’s just sort of my way of really, really active, I’m crying, I’m thinking about it, you know, I’m struggling. I can tell I’m struggling versus the kind of grief that may be the opposite. You don’t, it’s still there, you know? Like for me, it’s still, there I only notice it sorta when it’s triggered or awakened or again moments, I’m wondering about, you know, thinking about my life course. What’s next? What could I be doing? Where should I be now? What should I be doing? Those can be moments of grief triggered for me as well.

Marcus: 11:27

So for the most part, it’s pretty dormant. Even with Mother’s Day, it’s not as active as it used to be, I think because I just have so much going on as a pastor on Mother’s Day. So maybe, I don’t know. I think this past Mother’s Day I maybe cried for like 20 seconds and then that was, that was kind of it. Which is weird to say in itself. Uh, but that’s just kind of where it is right now. But I’m aware of the way it gets triggered. I don’t know if others would find that helpful. I think. I think that’s the reality that we all kind of have to, uh, to come to. Again, especially in light of a, of a culture that generally says, you know, why are you, why are you still grieving? That was a year ago or why are you still grieving that was a decade ago or whatever it is. It’s like, nah man, we’re not. You know, this ain’t something you just kind of finish and check off, you know, like a to do list. It’s, it’s, it’s gonna stay with you and you got to know that.

CJ Williams: 12:30

Having been without your mother for 17 years, especially when Marcus had lost her. I mean he lost her, sort of in the beginning of his life. He was about to make his way as an adult and go to college. As I thought about this a little further, I asked him, what’s his Mother’s Day like? It’s been a long time. Is it different from mine, which really feels very sad and a long day. Does he have that sort of feeling too?

Marcus: 13:01

Oh, Mother’s Day has been the worst day for years. It’s just been awful. Since starting as a pastor three years ago it’s been a little, it’s been less acute because I’ve got so much other stuff to focus on. And you know, for a pastor, Mother’s Day is, you know, the biggest day of the year, second to Easter. So there’s a lot of other things. My mind is on. I thought I had done my mourning. I thought I had done my grieving. You know, I, I cried, I let it out at the time, but the reality is it’s sort of come back and in some sense that was shocking. And even over the last few years, uh, thank God for therapy. You know, in times when you talk to people and it’s like, Oh gosh, is that, is that a mom thing? Like there’s still mom’s stuff that’s coming up? Like oh my gosh. And just realizing that the, you know, the grieving is not done. If there’s ever any such thing as finishing your grieving.

Marcus: 13:56

But you know, I sorta felt like, all right, that was where I was and I’ve been through it and I’m good. But no, no. It’s just how again, how much different we be, how much stronger would I be? How much more confident can I be? Any list of questions, you know. What would it be like if I still had mom? And of course that’s not to say that dad isn’t great, but I think you also grow and you realize, you know, there’s, there’s a unique ministry to dad and there’s a unique ministry to mom. And they, you know, in theory or ideally work together, work in tandem. When one of those is gone, you know, you can feel some kind of way. And you know, we have all the, all the surrogate mothers, we thank God for the surrogate mothers and the aunties and all of that. That’s cool. And there is still nobody like mom mom. So I think emptiness would be too strong. Whole might be too strong, but something feels like it’s almost incomplete.

CJ Williams: 15:03

Do you think your mom’s proud of you?

Marcus: 15:07

I think so. Um, and uh, you know, people remind me of that all the time, which, you know, it’s tough. She’s, you know, she never heard me preach, never. You know, again, all those things that, you know, she quote unquote missed, but I think she would be, would be very very proud of what I’ve accomplished and what I’m doing with my life. And I think I need to sort of stop and really think about that and remember that.

CJ Williams: 15:36

What would you talk to her about? What would you ask her if she was in front of you today?

Marcus: 15:42

You know, there’s so much, I mean everything from dating to money to church. I mean there’s just so many things to probably every facet of my life I would, I would try to touch upon. Cause I mean I had to go off to college without her and get through college and grad school and ordination, I mean there are so many significant life events to that that’s kind of like, oh man. But there are times where I do go to the gravesite and I just kind of talk as if she were there.

[Music]

Marcus: 16:27

The strength of the community’s support didn’t like die off, but it definitely changes. You know, and it’s like I told my congregants all the time — the time that the church really needs to be the church is the week after the funeral and the months after the funeral when people just kind of, especially in American culture, they go back to work, they go back to their normal lives and sort of the culture dictates that you just, you know, grieve for awhile and then get back to work kind of thing. I wouldn’t say the support ever really completely died off. I mean, there’s still people who very much honor her and support us in her honor. You know, I think it’s just kinda how it goes. You know, people not necessarily that they forget, but you know, guys moving on onto the next thing and you’re still grieving and your grief may still be very active. But you know, folks kind of go back to their lives. Yeah, that can be challenging, especially if you’re not ready for that or not expecting that.

[Music]

Marcus: 17:43

You know, people don’t grieve the same, people don’t grieve the same things. And the best thing to do, as I’ve said in many sermons, it’s just to be listening and empathetic rather than trying to assume you understand. But then again, the way people are in our society and culture, sometimes it’s like, well, what are you crying about? You know, it’s, come on, cheer up champ. You know, they’re trying to rush you to, to feeling better. And it’s just like, no, don’t it, don’t it don’t work that way, nor should it.

CJ Williams: 18:13

Marcus’ final words for today were “nor should it”. And the reality is, is that he is onto something there. He told me that he hates hospitals. It’s funny because he’s a hospital chaplain. He hates the smell. He hated the look. He hated everything about it. And then one day he realized that that was the place that he really needed to be. Realities are is he equated them to the issues that his mother had to deal with for so long. But after getting his calling, going to college, heading to graduate school twice, and now in his second church as an ordained minister, he goes into that hospital and he goes and supports those families that are grieving, that are missing their loved one. He does this with the full remembrance of what it was and what it is like to be missing an important piece in your life. One of them being his mother, Brenda.

CJ Williams: 19:21

[Music] This podcast is created, produced, and edited by me, CJ Williams. I’d love if you could take a moment to rate and comment about the show on your favorite listening app, whatever it may be. It really does help a lot. The biggest compliment of course, would be for you to share your favorite episode with others. Visit the website, sorrytohearpodcast.com. There you can get show notes, sign up for the newsletter and donate. It’ll be much appreciated. I’ll see you again in two weeks. I’m CJ Williams and this is Sorry To Hear That.

[Music until end]