Date: 201503
Local time of day: 1801-2400
Location: ZLA.ARTCC, CA
Light: Night
Aircraft: Small Transport
Operator: Government
Operating under: Part 91
Flight plan: VFR
Mission: Other observation
Flight phase: Other Holding Pattern
Airspace: Class E ZLA
ATC / advisory: Center ZLA
Second aircraft: Small Transport
Reporter organization: Government
Reporter function: Enroute
Human factors: Troubleshooting; Situational Awareness; Distraction; Workload
Anomaly: ATC Issue All Types; Conflict Airborne Conflict; Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural Published Material / Policy; Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural Clearance
Detector: Person Air Traffic Control
When detected: In-flight
Result: Air Traffic Control Separated Traffic
Contributing factors: Procedure; Human Factors
Primary problem: Procedure

Narrative: I took the sector from another controller.  Aircraft X was already in the airspace and orbiting near EMT at 14;500.  At that altitude in that area is far from ideal as the LOOP departure aircraft are to cross a fix KOOPP that is very near EMT at or above 15;000 so most aircraft that are flying the LOOP departure are at or very near 14;500 in the same vicinity as Aircraft X.  It had been coordinated with SCT to have the LOOP departures off of KLAX stopped at 14;000 Until Further Notice (UFN) which provided some margin of safety.  But on occasion when I climbed aircraft higher when I thought Aircraft X was proceeding in a direction in its orbit that would keep the aircraft safety separated laterally; the two aircraft would get much closer either by altitude and/or laterally than I had expected.  At some point during my session at Sector 18 another same outfit aircraft departed RIV (Aircraft Y).  Once I had communications with the aircraft I asked for their intentions.  The pilot told me that they were heading to the same area as Aircraft X and would be orbiting at 15;000.  I explained to him what impact that would have for my outbound traffic and I asked if he would consider operating at a higher altitude (16;500 or above) or a lower altitude (12;500 or below).  He told me that they had to operate above 12;500 so as not to be seen by the target of interest and he said he would orbit at 16;500 for as long as he could.  I further queried him about their procedure and asked if it would be possible to coordinate their intentions with ZLA before departure.  He told me that they do coordinate with RIV tower and SCT as soon as they are wheels up.  However; that information was never forward on to ZLA.This was not the first time that Sector 18 (and more specifically I) has worked an Aircraft X & Y  flight at that altitude in that area that was also an impact to the departures off of LAX.I think that ZLA and possibly SCT should coordinate a meeting with the department that operates the Aircraft X & Y flights to allow both sides a better understanding of what each is doing and the impact that the flights.  I realize that they have little control of the predictability of their flights and their timing and location; but if there was a dialogue opened between the entities involved it would help allow us to provide a better; safer service to them and it would allow them to know the drastic impact that their flight can have on the efficiency and safety of the NAS operations in that area.




Synopsis: A Los Angeles Center (ZLA) Controller describes a situation where an aircraft is circling on a mission and is in constant conflict due to altitude and position.