Date: 201502
Local time of day: 1801-2400
Location: ASE.TRACON, CO
Light: Dusk
Aircraft: Medium Large Transport
Operator: Air Carrier
Operating under: Part 121
Flight plan: IFR
Mission: Passenger
Flight phase: Initial Climb
Airspace: Class D ASE; Class E ZDV
ATC / advisory: TRACON ASE
Second aircraft: Small Transport; Low Wing; 2 Recip Eng
Reporter organization: Government
Reporter function: Departure; Instructor
Reporter qualification: Air Traffic Control Fully Certified
Human factors: Situational Awareness; Communication Breakdown; Training / Qualification; Distraction
Second reporter function: Trainee; Departure
Anomaly: ATC Issue All Types; Conflict Airborne Conflict; Deviation - Track / Heading All Types; Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural Clearance; Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural Published Material / Policy
Detector: Person Air Traffic Control
When detected: In-flight
Result: Air Traffic Control Issued New Clearance; Air Traffic Control Separated Traffic
Contributing factors: Airspace Structure; Human Factors; Procedure
Primary problem: Procedure

Narrative: I was training a developmental on the terminal control position; which includes both departures and arrivals. We were first given Aircraft Y on departure; who was a very slow climber that was on the LINDZ8 departure. His next Fix was JNC; Grand Junction VOR; which means that we couldn't not turn that aircraft until he was either 13 miles northwest of the field or out of 14;000 feet MSL due to the MVAs in that area. Then local control launched Aircraft X right behind Aircraft Y; who was also on the LINDZ8 departure. Aircraft X outperformed Aircraft Y as it should have. There was also training going on in local control. At ASE we cannot use diverging headings to separate traffic right off departure end. They will be on the same course until one on them reaches the MVAs so that departure control can then turn them. We cannot vector below the MVA at ASE because all of our prominent obstacles are not depicted on the radar map. The OJT Instructor on local control didn't do anything to correct the trainee's mistake and let the whole thing happen. The last out local had was to stop the Aircraft X at 12;000 feet MSL and keep him as slow as possible but Aircraft X still caught up to Aircraft Y before we were able to turn Aircraft Y to a diverging heading. On terminal control; we told Aircraft Y to expedite his climb and gave him traffic. The small aircraft was doing the best he could. We then gave Aircraft Y a turn to 290 to try to separate the two aircraft but it wasn't enough. We couldn't turn that aircraft any further or else he would have flown into the MVA. When Aircraft X had finally reached 12;000 feet MSL (the MVA for a right turn); local control switched him to us and we turned him right immediately. Once the pilot was on course; he came over to us and asked up to relay a message to local control. He said that he would prefer to sit on the ground longer then try to go that slow and remain that low. The local controllers went down stairs after finishing training and looked at the replay of the event. They notified us that it was not a loss; so the CIC did not file Mandatory Occurrence Report on the event. An email was sent to me from the ATM notifying me that he thinks this event in a loss but he wasn't sure if visual separation was being applied. I am not sure if visual separation with local control was being applied. This is a classic situation where you do not want to jam your departure controller. Know your types of aircraft and know that you do not have any outs if you decide to launch two aircraft back to back and the back one will outperform the front one. Also; if you are the OJT Instructor; be smart about how far you are willing to let your trainee take it before it becomes a loss or an unsafe situation.


Second narrative: I was training on TC (Terminal Control) position which works both arrivals and departures. LC (Local Control) was also training and; launched Aircraft Y off runway 33 who was a slow climber and flying at a slow rate of speed. Due to the unique control operation at ASE there are no fan headings for departures; and both aircraft were to fly the LINDZ8 SID. LC trainee then launched Aircraft X with Aircraft Y about .5nm off the departure end of runway 33. Aircraft X is known to be higher performance and the LC trainer or CIC did not stop the LC trainee and let Aircraft X continue for departure. Aircraft X immediately began overtaking Aircraft Y and the LC trainee switched Aircraft Y to TC; then issued traffic to Aircraft X and instructed them the maintain 120 and do not exceed 230 kts. When the speed was clearly not going to work LC trainee issued 'Maintain 200 kts or less'.When Aircraft Y checked on I issued the climb to final altitude and my instructor told me to expedite the climb for Aircraft X traffic. A few moments later my instructor told me to turn Aircraft Y to a 290 heading (Aircraft Y was not at a safe altitude to be given a northerly heading due to MVA's) and issue traffic at 6'oClock and I did which resulted in Aircraft Y slightly increasing their climb rate. At this point the LC Instructor had stepped in and taken control of the situation however it was already just about too late. The LC instructor continued to issue traffic calls until the situation was resolved from the LC and then switched Aircraft X to TC. Aircraft X was climbed and turned right direct JNETT to put him on course; and Aircraft Y was sent on course to JNC thus completely resolving the situation. Later Aircraft X did make a minor complaint about how it was not ideal for them to maintain such a low altitude at a restricted speed for as long as they were.More emphasis on same runway separation for departures with a large gap in aircraft performance during training. Be more aware of aircraft performance and not let the student have more room to make an error just because they may be farther along in training.


Synopsis: ASE TRACON Controllers report of a loss of separation given to them by ASE Tower. Controllers report on the situation and describe how it could have been fixed by the Tower.