The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-07-08 00:00:00

LEASES.

Resolved, that it be recommended to the Council to grant a
new lease for the Catholic Schools, and that the fine be remit-
ted to £2O,
A number of applications for the renewal of leases were read.
. Mr. Cr. BLACKBURN rose to oppose the grant of a lease with-
out the usual fine to the Catholic Schools. He did not do so on
the ground of its being a catholic school. His decidedconviction
sras that, the only course by which they could avoid dissention
Was to show no favour to any denomination of christians, or to
any schools whatever, but to deal with all perfectly equally
and demand the full value of the renewal of their leases from
an.' Had it been for any other denomination he should have
aa.ken exactly the same course. ( Hear.) He concluded with
moving that the grant he suspended for one month.
, Mr: Councillor LAWRENCE HEY WORTH said they were com-
pelled by law to give 'support to the established church which
Was one denomination of christians. Mr. Blackburn's obser-
vations were rendered nugatory by. that. Were they not com-
pelled to give support to an established church Mr. Black-
burn's observations would be correct, but as they were com-
pelled to give that support it was perfectly right to give support
to any other denomination of christians.
The MA.von would observe that this was the remission of a
. part of the fine for R school lease and not ths support of
church.
Mr. Councillor S. HOPE was glad to hear such sentiments
as he had heard corning from .a member of the established
church. He had, however, much pleasure in seconding the
motion of Mr. Blackburn ; he only regretted that it was not
• his own denomination he was voting against.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN wished to know why the interest
f the endowment for the church had been ordered to be paid
tiY the treasurer now the church endowment was settled?
The MAYOR said that, the last week, the deCision of the Mas-
. ter of the Rolls was not known. They were advised to pay the
usual half year's salary., with the understanding that it should
be refunded if the endowmeot should be confirmed. To delay
having paid them would have been to acknowledge the endow-
ment
_ Mr. Counsellor BOLTON wished it to be• understood that the

rev. gentlemen had said, they were no parties to the endowment,
they held to the corporation for their salaries.
The finance committee reported, with the above exception,
and the leases were then confirmed.

WATCH COMMITTEE.

The report recommended an addition of £3O per annum to
the salary of Mr. Batcheldor for his increased duties, owing to
the extension of the borough, and expressed satisfaction with
Lis arrangements. It also advised the formation of a sick club
for the police force. Confirmed.
TOWN HALL COMMITTEE.

Resolved, that the consideration wof a proposal to build the
Mayor au open landau be postponed.
Resolved, that a case of champagne be ordered for the use of
the Mayor's table. Confirmed.

IMPROVEMENT COMMITTEE

Resolved, that a communication be made to the dock com-
nlittee, recommending the erection of water troughs beside the
docks, for the use of cattle.—Confirmed.

MARKET COMMITTEE.
Resolved, that the surveyor be authorised to examine the
*infer' St. John's Market and report thereon as to what it was
necessary to repair.
Several matters of minor importance were ordered.—Con-
firmed.

EDUCATION COMMITTEE

At a meeting of the committee, on the 15th of June,—Resolv-
ed, on the motion of Mr. Walmsley, that the corporation schools
',halt be opened each morning at nine o'clock by singing a
'Vona.

Resolved, that there be holidays on Thursday and Saturday
afternoons, .and that the holidays on Saturday mornings be
abolished.
Resolved, that the Irish system' of religious education be
44?Pted and have a fair trial.
Itesolved, that the first master have EMI a-year salary and
'one penny per week for each of the boys. That the second
Master have £3O a.year salary and a halfpenny a-week from
each of the boys. That the first mistress have Z3O a-year and
Eld. a-week from each of the girls, and that the second mistress
"ve £2O a-y eiir:and a halfpenny a-week from each of the girls.
'Mr. Councillor CROPPER, though a memberof the committee,
4ntrtdd not allow this report to pass without proposing an amend-
Meat. He objected to the introduction of the Irish selections
from the scriptures, and he did so not so much on account of the
ections themselves but because, they were accompanied by
notes which were calculated to confirm error. He should
Move that the proceedings of the education committee be
e_,.Qarirnietl, with the exception of that part which refers to the
'4'eligiousatistructien of the children, and that the proposition to
Introduce the Irish selections from the scriptures be referred to
the reconsideration of the committee, with a recommendation
that the Bible be substituted."
Mr. Councillor RUSHTON seconded the motion.
Mr. Councillor Sniee.—Be kind enough: to mention the
t'ersion of the Bible:
Councillor Dr. CARSON denied that there was any exclusion
'of the Bible from these schools. The object of the committee
had been to introduce a system of education which should be ac-
ceptable to all classes of the community. So far as he could
ua4erstand, there' was nothing in the Iris'ssystem of religious
!dilcation to which a christian could object. He never before
heard that there was anything objectionable in it. If they went
°ue step further they entered into a scene of contention, and he
round that the remedy which had been proposed was the'beit
that could be conceived, and be *did not think that any reason-
able person could object to it. It was, that a reading of the
'ieriptures•should be proposed to suit the different, classes of the
euttnnunity, 'lt was the wish of the committee to accomplish
all the good that could he done to the people generally, without
uhf distinction of classes. He fur one had been for disposing
*of the schliols and appropriating the money to the establish-
41ent of ward schools. He thought they would then have avoid-
ed
a great deal of this clamour, and they might have established
a 4YSteril of education which would have raised the character of
the town of Liverpool.
Mr. Councillor HORSPALL, as the question had been raised,
:eyu.lstteit right to state that he felt some difficulty in' regard to this
to of Irish education. The selections, the council were
were in part froin.the authorised version of the scriptures
- Part treat
.the Douay Bible, and a part from a translation,
hich was' not "named, consequently, gentlemen who had not
„atd w
much attention to these selections could scarcely be tom-
vateut to give an opinion whether it was such a selection as
:Pea to suercede the ible. he ouht to know ell what
Leese selectipons were before they aT lowed
them to superwcede the
Tithorised version of the scriptures which they did know.
, hese selections were placed in the schools to-sup ercede the
(o No, tio from Shiel and others.) Gentlemen
eaa
11- no. The Iliede used in ter schools was closed while the
"°Ol3 were open and not pmitted to be opened till the '
""bola were closed, and then it was permitted for parties to
te?nte and give instruction in it, The compilers of theee selec-
.4Lna said they were offeted, not as a substitute for the sacred
c„„%unie itself, but as an introduction to it, and they had been
er`,,Piied in the hope of sending oat a more profitable version
the word of God. An introduction to these selections said
this nuthber of scriptural lessons for schools has been coin-
ed on the principles which have been already published on
e Old Testarnent and Contains the whole selof St. Luke."
" Nothing is more remote from the intent on of the
teC"Pilers of these lessons than to offer them as a substitute of
whole Bible or to supercede the authorised version of the
establishedchurch." (Hear.) He apprehended that these
estits were placed in the schools to supercede the Bible, so far
4:te schools here went. (" No," from Mr. Shiel, and cries
cit. Order.") It appeared that their school committee were
tea the point further than it was intended by tha glad
-
ten who compiled the selections, and he should be very glad if
4 would refer back that report to the committee, with
bereo,!aooltnendation that they should introduce the Bible as a
ta„. f instruction into the schools; it was at present in express
4,57'8 eaeluded till after school hours; then the school was open,
to '4 other room might be, for ministers of every denomination
go and instruct the children. He might abio be permitted
usay that it had been his wish that the schools should be com-
menced,
keeeed, as they used to be by a short prayer and hymn ; that
ns was couceded to the Roman Catholics, a difficulty arising
Buhl
v the regulations of their church that they could not join
~s other sect in prayer. He thought, as (he compilers of
6Zei.e selections said the y were not intended to supercede the
let le, there could be no reason why it should be excluded during
ve school hours. He must say the committee had done what
seep thought best, but he Could not agree with them. and on that
er:unt ,e made these obseivations. He should support Mr.
PPe us motion.
ailnetrs COlineitiOr RATHBONE saia he should repeat their
that that
thnastideration to what he was about to state. He was sorry
discussion had been introduced into that room—he was
sorry
.th• at it had been introduced out of doors. He did not
142,U.Keit n.ecessary to notice the vulgar scurrility of the Standard,
thedid he think it necessary to notice the stupid bigotry of
the urier. proceeding, as he had reason to know it did from
foto le)eatt of a peace-maker by profession, who had resorted to
bet,`„_ghlamttlies for the base objects of sectarian zeal and sup-
'pOuro. c ion, and it was then time to come a little to facts.
the management
was to cast every species of odium on those who took
„ of the corporatioti schools. He would tell that
'eu!l man that the statements be had made in the pulpit which
4,
desecrated were false—that his statements were false;
ottr e hoped' the reporters would put that down. That what
Rev. Hugh M'Neile had stated, through the Liverpool
kier, was false, was unchristian; he would not say that he
new what he had stated was false, he left that between God
44d his conscience. The sermon of his in the. Courier was a
ittost wicked violation of truth and fairness. He would now tell
Leta what had been done in these schools under the direction
1? the clergy. They had the bible read, and very properly, to
the older classes . They had five selections of the bible read,
nad they had five cateChisins to commit to memory, and it might
48 well have been in Latin for the kneoxwlledge.the children had
ppaarntast7 of the scrip-
otf those cathechisins. They had no
ire; they had none of the beautiful the church of
;?ngland service, and the collects were excluded by those cler-
oaten who were now making such a noise about these selee,
of the liturgy. The
'ls There was no explanation given
Loatinger classes were taught, or at least were heainrdt,htehegir rwdeeearnde-.
',le lessons on the crucifixion and the agony
.sevould ask any christian in that room whether theiear
sielneteswon which young children ought. to learn their lessons.
cito a lady who was no ways fastidious who was absolutely
so examining, the children, the chapter on the agony was
this""Y. He wished to know what respect they could haie en.
task subject when they were to cry over it and thumb it as a
the
wanted.) It was said they wanted to exclude the bible ;
tbat _ to do no such thing; he had denied it before in
3p„Tom, and the Rev. Hugh M‘Neile might have read those
its'he ou and have known that it was false, and it was fa
they

were read n;;W, as an introduction to'the bible, and to `►educe
the children to read the bible when they came to an age tnun-
derstand it. He was sure that the bible Would be more read,
and the 'children Would be better churChmen under the present
system than they were before. They now had the selections
read to those who could not read, and passages were co emitted
to memory which ware calculked to be of benefit in after life..
which, was not formerly -done by those keepers of the tabernacle
when the schools had been under their charge. He had felt that,
when they were taking the schools from the hands of the clergy,
they ought to do it with as much delicacy as they could.
He would appeal to any member of the committee whether he
had not fought for the clergy as if he were a son of the church,
or whether he had brought forward any of 'his own sectarian
views there. Let not the Rev. Hugh M'Neile say it was be-
cause he did not value his own light of the gospel, and think it as
true as he did his. Without the consistency of the catholic, in
professing openly infallibility he, the (Rev. if. M.) still professed
it more than any catholic. And this was what was called exclud-
ing the bible; would they, for the name of the thing, when there
were thousands depending on it both for their temporal and
eternal good, refuse the present selections ? He was not willing
to use the slang _terms under -which the Rev. Hugh M'Neile
concealed his ignorance of the first principles of religion and
charity, which was a foundation beyond his hope. He would
quote the scriptures to him, "Although yon may prophegY in
my name, although you may do many wonderous works, yet if
you have not charity you are none of mine, and I shall say, de-
part from me, workers of iniquity, for I know you not" He
had passed sleepless nights in feeling the deep responsibility
which had devolved on him as chairman of this committee—in
feeling that on the right derision of the committee depended
both the temporal and eternal interests of thousands ; and he
had given it the most conscientious help he could, and had
thrown everything that was sectarian, and everything that was
party away; and, under the Almighty, lie believed that this
system would do more for the religious education of the poor
than was ever done before. • After that he would read to them
what it was that the Rev. Hugh M‘Neile had stated of the mem-
bers of the committee, and he would ask any man who was not
in the habit of listening to the vulgarities of that gentleman, if
it would not much more properly proceed from punch and
Judy; whether it was the language of a christian minister, of an
honest man, or of a man who knew what the courtesies of life
were. [The speaker then read several long extracts from a ser-
mon of Mr. M`Neile, reported in the Courier, commenting on
them as he proceeded, and designating them as ungentlemanly,
and the language as unfit to proceed from a christian minister.]
We give the extracts

" But it may be urged, this is a small matter. Why ascribe;
so much importance to two schools in the town of Liverpool?
We answer. This is the gyre's voice of the enemy of all righte-
ousness.' It has ever been his practice (as we have seen) to do
mischief by little and little. To avoid alarm and reaction, he
is satisfied to take instalments of evil, Each step is short, and
smooth, and gentle; but this, instead of being any indication of
harmlessness; is of the nature of a snare. It was while men
slept, that tares were sown in the. field, and the sower of evil is
loth that men should be awakened. But be not deceived. This
is no local matter. It begins in Liverpool it is true. It must
have a local commencement. But it cannot end where it be-
gins. It is a feeler of the national pulse. Is England indeed
so stupified in a sleep of infidel indifference to revealed truth,
that she e• ill tamely submit to this pro-popery system ? It will
be pleaded as a precedent. The time is well choosen. The op-
portunity is shrewdly seized. Why? Because at this time
there exist a number of town-councils in England, composed
during a violent reaction of men's minds last winter, who it is
to be feared, are ready and willing to follow this precedent ;
and if the enemies of God's truth could compass this rejection
of the Bible from the schools is the corporate towns, it would
be a grand achievement, and go far towards the accomplishment
of their final purposes with regard to this kingdom. Yourtown
is honoured so far as to be the spot at which they are attempting
to inoculate England with the popish virus of this wicked sys-
tem. People of Liverpool, will you bear it! That is the ques-
tion we intend to"ask you next week. We shall set the matter
fairly before you. We have no authority to interpose in the
management of schools that belong to the corporation : we sub-
mit to the powers that he in all things lawful : but we cannot
submit to send Protestant children to schools where the Proles-.
tent Bible is not sent. If the corporation has so much money
and so much liberality, let them set up popish: schools. I say
not that it would be well done, it can never be well to teach
men what is opposed to the word of God. But if they talk of
justice to numbers, let them be just to both sides. T. plead
tenderness of conscience on one part, as a pretext for forcing
conscience on the other, this, under the sheep's clothing of liber-
ality is to be most illiberal, most bigotted, most exclusive, and
uuj ust
"Beware of compromise. It is quite possible that the council
may, on Wednesday bark out of the resolutions of the Educa-
tion Committee. It is possible that they may see that the in-
stalment which they have unwarily demanded is too much for a
first step. If they reject the recommendation of their commit-
tee -altogether, and leave the schools as heretofore, let us give
God thanks for his overruling mercy. But bewareof compromises.
It is more likely that they will put their heads together to de-
vise some more moderate scheme to begin with, some plausible
admission which may have the effect of dividing the friends of
Scriptural education. And, not hitting upon this all at once, it
is quite possible that they may come to no decision on Wednes-
day, but take another month to concoct their scheme, and put us
olf our guard,"
If any gentleman in that room, after what he had read, did not
feel disgusted he would say he did not value much their chris-
tianity. He hoped the council would show their disgust of that
language by concurring with the recommendation of the edu-
cation committee. which would at once put au end to this dis-
graceful proceeding.
Mr. Councillor CROPPER wished to explain. He thought
there was something personal in the last allusion.
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE hoped he would not be permitted
to explain; he (Mr. It.) had frequently been refused.
Mr. Councillor flonseALL hoped he had given no offence to
Mr. Rathbone by his expressions.
Mr. Councillor RATHBoNE must say that Mr. Horsfall had•
acted towards Wei with courtesy.

Mr. Councillor CROPPER said he had had no communication
whatever with Mr. M‘Neile on this question; neither was he
certain that he should bring it forward when he entered the
room.

Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN said this was a subject of great
importance, and he wished to offer a few observations on it. It
was, perhaps, not known that this system was originallyiutro-
duced into Ireland principally by Mr. Secretary, now Lord
Stanley, and was defended by Mr. Stanley, who explained fully
the objects and plans of its institutions which were to do away
with the great divisions existing in Ireland; and it was a plan
looked on by the ministry as highly desirable to be. adopted,
that if possible by it the children of protestant and catholic pa-
rents might be brought together, and that the feuds which ex-
isted in that unhappy country might be put an end to. This
system had originated iu a benevolent intention. The plan
proposed, so far as the religious part was concerned, was, as
.protestants would not read the Douay version of the bible, and
catholics would not read the authorised version, to strike out
some plan by which those difficulties might be obviated. In
order to accomplish this object a board was instituted consisting
of several denominations of christians. The Roman Catholic
and the Protestant archbishop of Dublin, and the Rev. H. Car-
lisle were on that board, the latter a man of decided orthodoxy,
who was now so convinced of the value of this system of educa-
tion that he had relinquished his pastoral charge, and consigned
the whole of his time to.the promotion of the present system;
and government were so convinced of the value of his services
that they offered him £lul)O a year to devote himself to it; but
be with a feeling which did him honour refused to receive any
salary but what was an equivalent to his former income, namely,
£3OO a-year. (Cheers.) This system came from, the recom-
mendation of those three gentlemen well qualified to recom-
mend it. They were three men of prominent characters before
the public. The plan they had adopted with regard to scrip-
tural education was to effect a new translation of certain por-
tions of scripture to be introduced into these schools with the
sanction of the whole board. The books already published
were three in number; he held one in his hand. 'f They were
neither translations nor copies of the authorised version, nor of
the Douay version. The great object had been to effect a true
and faithful translation ; and he had yet to learn that any solid
ground of objection could he raised either against the transla-
tion or against the notes appended. Mr. Walmsley informed
him•that these commissioners had never yet had any division
on any subject before them. Mr. Cropper had objected not so
much on account of the translations as on ac.eount of certain
notes appended to them. He thought it would have been only
fair if he had stated what were the notes to which he particu-
larly objected. It was on that bung the whole controversy,. If
there were objectionable notes it was much to be regretted, and
they had better be pointed out. He would refer to one or two
of die principal objections. The first was, he thought with re-
gard to the note contained in the selections made from the bible
in the first book, which was from the old testament, comprising
the first history. And he would say that there were remarks iu
those selections by the way, and there was a reference from
time to time to different parts of the sacred scriptures, and to
passages in the book of I'salms on the creation. They had also
the comments of different writers on the subject, and a better
plan of teaching the scriptures could not be well devised ; he
considered it a most admirable plan. He thought that very cir-
cumstance of reference to parts of the scriptures completely re-
moved the idea of these lessons being brought out as a substi-
tute for the scriptures. They had no intention of casting the
slightest imputation on the scriptures. But to return to the note
be had mentioned it was here. In the text it was, "it shall crush
thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for his heel." The note was,
" divers of the fathers say, ipso—she, the woman, shall crush ;
others, ipsum—it shall crush. The sense is the same, for it is
by the seed of the woman, that is, Jeius." It was said that this
was-calculated to' favour the Boman catholic worship of the.
Virgin Mary. It merely stated the fact, "that divers of the fa-
thers have it ipsum, other! ipso." Then followed the explana-
tion, that "the sense is the. same, for it is by her seed, Jesus
Christ, that she crushes the serpent's head." (Hear.) Another
passage was, "the first man is of the earth earthy, the second
man is of the Lord of Heaven ;" that was the authorised version.
In this book the transhation was this, "the first man is of the
earth earthy, the second man is of the heaven heavenly." It
was followed by a note in explanation of it. It had been con-
tended by various parties that this alteration had been made in
order to conciliate the socinian part of the board, and that they
had -taken out the passage, " theiLord of Heaven," and trans-
lated it " of heaven heavenly" in order to conciliate that party ;
and it was given' as a sample of the spirit of the board, of what
they were willing to give up. What was the fact with regard to
the passage ? He was no Greek scholar himself, hut he had
inquired of gentlemen who,were competent to give the informa-
tion on the subject, and that passage was a disputed passage,
not as to the translation, but as to the bearing in the ancient
version. They were aware that there were a great number of
ancient versions which were referred to by learned men ' - and it
so turned out that the versions wbich were considered as the
best authorities gave the passage as, "of heaven heavenly ;"
and the opinion was,-that the phrase, " Lord 'of Heaven," had
been mistranslated. This was the opinion of Dr. Adam Clarke,
and of Greesebach, and of a very celebrated German critic; and
no one would suspect Dr. Adam Clarke of socinianism. They
had given the passage as it ought to be translated, yet this was
put forwards as one of the grounds of attack ' • and he entreated
the council to reflect that if such grounds as these were brought
forward by people who bad gone over these translations, as Peter
Pindar says, " Mousing for faults," they could not have a better
testimony of the correctness of these translations. There was
much said on the introduction of this book. It was said it con-
tained the whole gospel of St. Luke, and yet its opponents say
there are eight verses omitted. This was true. There were
eight verses omitted of the first chapter, and, instead of those
verses, a short condensation of them was given. He would
grant that this was a matter of opinion about the propriety of
this omission; but he thought that any gentleman who would
take the trouble to read those eight verses would see the reason
of their omission. They contained the annunciation, as it is
called, to the Virgin Mary thit she should become the mother
of Jesus Christ—and the sense was faithfullY given in the para-
graph. This was a great fault with Mr., M`lieile, and he lifted
up his hands and eyes in astonishment. He had one or two
remarks to make on this. There could be no, suspicion in any
man's mind that their being left but had, anything,to do with
protestant. and catholic • it was a question that did not touch
on that in the smallesedegree. (Hear.) There occurred in
the course of the same passages what persons Might think it

* The teat is, "it shall bruise thy head, and ilion ihalt bruise
his heel."