The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-10-12 00:00:00

THE WAREHOUSE QUESTION.

The MAYOR.—I suppose, in conformity with the adjourn-
ment, we will now take into consideration the dock proceed-
ings ; and it will probably facilitate those proceedings if we
first read over and confirm those proceedings which are under
the dock acts. By disposing of these, it would rather sim-
plify the proceedings of the day. Some person will then
probably move that these proceedings be confirmed, which
will then introduce the debate.
The DEPUTY TOWN CLERK then read the proceedings of
the Dock Committee.

It was resolved that proper life boats be constructed, and
.hat models be obtained.

Mr. Alderman LEATHOM moved that the proceedings, so
'ar as they had been read, be confirmed.

The Mayorr.—lt has been suggested, that in readir4C, the
proceedings of the Dock Committee that are now about to be
read, it will be also desirable to read the proceedings of the
Finance Committee that have taken place since the last Coun-
cil, as they have a material bearing upon the question. It
would put the Council i❑ possession of all that has passed.
The DEPUTY TOWN CLERK then read the following:—
" The Sub-committee appointed on the 2nd of August and
6th of September last, to consider the consolidat►on of the
existing Dock Acts, the heads of a New Dock Bill, together
with the necessary notices, and also to produce plans em-
bracing all such dock and warehouse accommodation as may
seem desirable, having give❑ their most serious consideration
to the important matters referred to them, beg to present
their report to the General Committee. First, with regard
to a dock, &c., capable of admitting large-class steamers at
the north end of the present dock works, the expediency for
which at this port has become apparent by the success of the
transatlantic voyages recently made, and the insufficient
width of the entrances of the docks at present used by steam
vessels, which could not now be altered without considerable
expense, and the greatest inconvenience to the general trade
of the port.
" In considering the various plans submitted by the Dock
Surveyor for these proposed improvements northward, the
Sub-committee having regard to that which seems to them
likely to promote the general interest of the port, and to give

the greatest accommodation at the least possible expense,
both as to the price of land and the construction of the works,
have arrived at the conclusion that it will not be advisable to
build the proposed docks from east to west, but that one duck,
together with an entrance, &c., and a graving dock, should
he built, extending north and south, preserving the present
line of river wall, and leaving ample space for the removal
of the fort to another site. [T he report here embodied a re-
ference to the plan which had been approved of.] To carry
this proposed plan into effect, the Sub-committee recommend

. .
that power be taken in the new bill to enable the trustees of
the docks to purchase from the Corporation so much of the
land, and strand of the river, extending from the north boun-
dary line of the present dock works, as far northward as may
be necessary for the workscontemplated.
" In connexion with the proposed increase of accommodation
of steam vessels, the Sub-committee have seen the necessity
of adopting a different mode of measuring steam vessels so
as to increase the Dock tonnage duty on such vessels, in a
just and fair proportion for the accommodation afforded them,
and for the purpose, have requested the owners to appoint a
deputation from among themselves, to confer with your Sub-
committee on the subject, with a view of effecting an arrange-
ment on a satisfactory basis. The Sub-committee also re-
commend, that a charge be made on the Steam ferry and
other vessels not liable to dockage, but which are brought
into the Docks for the purpose of repair, or laying up, for the
time they may remain in dock.
"Secondly, with regard to the proposed improvements to
the northward of the Salthouse Dock, the Sub-committee
recommend, that power also be taken in the bill, to enable
the Trustees to purchase the whole of the property to the
westward of the Salthouse Dock, including the strand of the
river, and extending from Gower-street and Cornhill on the
south, and including No. 1 Graving Dock and Quays on the
north. (Here were further references to ,the plan, setting
forth, that the Sub-committee had endeavoured to devise.
that the works. might be executed in the most economical
manner, and so as to give the greatest accommodation to the
general trade of the port.) The report proceeded as follows :
The Quays of the proposed New Dock, to the westward of
the Salthouse Dock, have been planned so as to admit of the
erection of warehouses, and a future period to be limited by
the provisions of the intened bill. It is also proposed to
widen the east quay -of the Salthouse Dock, and to add to
its waterspace the spare ground at the north-east end. The
Sub-committee also reccommend the purchase of No. 2 and
3 Graving Docks, with their appendages, to form part of the
Dock Estate, and the introduction of clauses into the bill, to
enable the trust to effect a communication from the Salthouse
Dock to the King's Dock, through the land and premises of
the late Duke of Bridgewater. The Sub-committee thought

that the Trustees should be empowered to borrow upon bonds
or assignment;, stuns of money for the general improvements,
and for the erection of warehouses intended to be built on
the west side of the Prince's Dock. The Sub-committee
stated, that the Dock Solicitor had been instructed to pre-
pare a notice to be published in the Gazette, &e., in compli-
ance with the standing parliamentry orders. The Solicitor
had also, by direction, prepared the heads of a bill for build-
ing the proposed warehouses at at the Prince's Dock ; also
the beads of a bill for carrying into effect the general objects
contemplated for the improvement of the Port and Harbour
of Liverpool. The Sub-committee further recommended a
compliance with certain forms required by the standing
orders of the House of Commons, so that the Trustees might
be enabled to apply to Parliament in the next Session."
The minutes of the Dock Committee proceedings also
contained the notice alluded to, which had been approved of.
The minutes embodied the heads of the proposed bills.

Mr. Mavoit..--Plans of the intended docks have been sent
up by the Dock Committee to the Council. I have also re-
ceived this communication from the underwriters' room,
signed W. Jones, chairman, calling attention to the great
danger to the vessels in the docks, during the late tire, by
the falling of pieces of fire, and stating, that by the building
of warehouses on the verge of the docks that danger would
be greatly increased. (Hear.) Gentlemen, allow me to
make a very few observations. We are about to commence
a discussion of very great importance, and I feel that my
position will be one of very great difficulty, and I shall have
to call the assistance of the Council. It will he toy duty not
to confine gentlemen to the discussion before the council.
And, gentlemen, let us remember that there is a large amount
of property which persons think is involved in the question,
and which other persons think is not involved, but rather
improved. But do let us keep in mind that on which we are
deliberating, and deliberate on it with coolness. (Hear.)
I shall call upon Mr. Alderman Evans to open the debate.
Mr. ALD. EVANS.—Mr. Mayor, I rise for the purpose of
moving for the conformation of the Dock Retorts: they are
reports of unusual interest, must particularly where they re-
late to the introduction of new bills into parliament for the
construction of the warehouses on the Prince's Dock, which
have already received the sanction of this council. They
also go for two new (locks in other parts of the town, one of
them to be enclosed with warehouses, which I apprehend
will be used for bonding purposes. It is highly desirable
that w,p should have warehouses of that sort to attract com-
merce, of which we have had an inconsiderable share, and
one infinitely below what Liverpool ought long to have pos-
sessed. Of the advantages of warehouses upon the docks.
What I expect they will be, will be the despatch of ships,
the consequent desire that ships will have to come to Liver-
pool at more reasonable rates of freight, a considerable re-
duction in the existing charges upon merchandise, perfect se-
curity given to property as well from robbery or wholesale
abstractions as from ordinary pilferage; the great advantages
that will also arise from the legalized system of warrants, by
which merchandise within the public warehouses will be con-
verted, without expense, and at a moment's notice, into mo-
ney, either to enable the harassed merchant to get relief, or
the enterprising merchant to go into other schemes. It, in
some measure, is giving that absolute security that can never
be acquired in private warehouses, which, in a great mea-
sure, has a tendency to double the capital of merchants.
These, Sir, are among the pecuniary advantages : but there
is another and a great one—moral advantages. It will be
the withdrawal of the temptation which is so widely spread
at present over the whole town and around all our open docks,
and is also carried into the private warehouses, over which
there is not, and there cannot be, any adequate superintend-
ence. Every person who knows the commerce of Liverpool,
knows that the establishments not on a large scale keep no
warehousemen; those upon a large scale, it is out of the
question that they can keep any adequate number, because
their business comes on in gushes. And what are these
warehousemen, who are, after all, the only watchman—the
only guardians? Why, sir, they are men drawn out of the
lowest ranks; out of that very order of the porters over
whom they are thought to preside, but with whom, on the
contrary, they are more likely to have sympathies, and may
be connected with interest : for, I believe that some of them
have a per centag,e out of the wages of those labourers to
whom they may choose to give the preference of employment.
This subject, at a former council, was so completely dis-
cussed that I consider myself quite exonerated from the
necessity of going into any further details in order to point
out advantages which, I believe, are generally admitted. I
believe it is nowhere denied that warehouses around the
docks of Liverpool would give Liverpool a very great advan-
tage over her rivals, not only in her foreign, but in her coast-
ing, and in her inland commerce. But, sir, having stated
that I will nut go (at least for the present, nor will I here-
after unless the course of the discussion in a measure com-
pels me to go) into it, nor trouble the council with more de-
tails. I know that I am addressing au assemblage of as in-
telligent mercantile men as can possibly be brought together,
and were Ito attempt to go into minor details, it certainly
would be a work of supererogation. But there is one point
only which I shall now go into; it is the recent calamity of
the late fire. It is a subject intimately 'connected with that
before the council. I have no other view in requesting the
indulgence of the council to allow me to refet to a printed
letter in the Albion. I have no other wish to make use of it
than to shorten what I would otherwise have to say. This
letter has the peculiar merit, 1 believe, of embodying all the
arguments that have been raised out of doors in order to
pervert the circumstance of that calamity—which speaks
more eloquently than words could possibly do, in favour of
the warehouse scheme—into an argument against it. I shall
not attempt to read the letter out, but will merely refer to
points in it.
The MAYOR.—WouId you like the Deputy Town-clerk to
read such parts as you wish?
Mr. Alderman EVANS continuing. No, I shall not. These
arguments, as they are the arguments of others, I would like,
you know, to refer to specifically. The writer of this letter
is a man of the highest standing in Liverpool, who would be
distinguished in any place in the world in his profession of
an architect. He is a man for whom I have a great respect,
but in this case I cannot believe that he has brought his usual
candour to bear upon the subject. Mr. Holum is the gentle-
man to whom I allude. Now, sir, his question is, " had this
accident happened to warehouses on the edge of the duck
where would the shipping have been ?" Sir, I reply, that in
the warehouses we propose to have at the edge of the dock,
there would have-been no fire happening. (Hear.) There are
neither pipes nor candles allowed, sir. The evidence of that
is here, in those London establishments. (Mr. Evans here
begged for a glass of water; he hail not been well for two
days, and an acidity arose.) Now, sir, the evidence is the ex-
istence of four enormous establishments in London; the East
India, the West India, the London, and the St. Katherine-5
Docks, all of them environed with warehouses, and at por-
tions of the year tilled with ships, and the most dangerous of
all; and one of these set of warehouses—the loftiest are built
of wood upon the very verge of the dock, and in that dock
there is no restriction whatever upon the ships as to using fire
or lights; they cook and do every thing on board. Now, sir,
here is for an immense number of years faiar chance ssf Tarr;
upon a scale which, if you rook at individual warehouAes, are
nearly equal to a thousand chances fur fire, and yet the fire
has never existed : and such is the confidence of the world
in that security, that the shipping, goods, and warehouses, al-
together, are insured for Is. Gil., while we here have, I believe,
from ss. up to 12s. to pay.—(Hear.) Now, sir, if any one
was to enter into a calculation from the period of duration of
these London Farehouses—of the whole four, and average
them, they would find the saving between the London insu-
rance and the Liverpool would be millions of money already.
Now, sir, Mr. Holmes is a t.errestial anim. I, and it certainly
would be quite as well, if he confined his attention to Ware-
houses less connected with water; but in his observations he
talks' of the Liverpool docks as if ships were not moveable.
Now, upon apy dock that we are proposing to build w4re.

houses, they are always moveable, and long before any fire
could get a head, you would have them on the opposite side
of the dock, or may be, many of them removed out long be-
fore any fire could happen. You observe, that whatever would
blow the flame upon the dock, would also be exactly the lever
for removieg, the shipping away. But, sir, I maintain that
the safest property in the world, under the action of fire, is a
ship; she is afloat, and every thing around her is water. '1 here
is nothing, except what can alight upon her, can do her any
harm. Now, sir, Ido maintain, that upon the deck of a ship
no one ever knew of their, being burnt while people were upon

- .
the deck. if you put fire upon the external pait, it is quite
easily removed ; a man wit h a bucket of water and a ti;et mop,
I will answer for it, would keep any ship in the world clear of
all the fire that could possibly fall. Now, sir, with regard to
the rigging and the masts • supposing, after all, they did take
fire, they burn to the deck and drop overboard. -I
say one
man is capable of protecting the whole; but it is not one man,
but half a score to protect the decks. It is monstrous; and
there is no instance in the world where you have a dock full
of ships ever burnt. Why are we to suppose ? If it happens
that even one was burnt, if it happens another is to be burnt,

where we all know 7 there will be a 'physical power of men—not
of tire engine, a hundred of which, or a thousand, applied to
a warehouse, are- not so good as a single man o❑ the deck of
a ship with a wet mop. A bucket and a wet mop would be
absolute amusement and nothing else toput it out.--(A laugh.)
Now, sir, Mr. Holme has exhibited a great anxiety—a won-
derful anxiety for these ships. 1 have always been a ship
owner myself, and I ought to like all this kind of thing; but,
really, the interest is so excessive, that there is a re-action
in my mind that there is something suspicious—wanting to
hug me to death under the pretence of loving my bantling.
—( A laugh.) Now, sir, Mr. Holme has exposed himself to
having his name introduced; however, I would hope neither he
nor any one else would suppose I mean him any disrepect ; but
he has put his name to the letter, acd has possi►ively challenged
this. Now lam old enough to remember the Goree fire;
was there from the very beginning of it. It happened
was an apprentice of Meek and Lowndes, who had at that

time a large interest in the real room where it took fire;
and as I have always understood, it was a man who was
packing porter and using a pipe, over straw, that caused the
fire, which could never happen but in private warehouses.
And there was he; I will venture to say a weekly hire of 2s.
would allow men to have their pipes if the line of warehouses
was a league in length. You observe there is all the differ-
ence between the great system of management and the ma-
nagement of private affairs. But you observe, when the tire
broke out, the flame, although the wind was the other way,
flared over upon the doors and windows and capstans at the
other side. Would it not be better for Mr. Holmes to lay

down the principle that rules that warehouses should not be
built opposite to each other? I would be glad to know at
what period the George's Dock was ever crowded with wealth
—whether in the form of ships—when had it anything like

the wealth of the Goree at that time?—all valuable articles,
nearly all Baltic hemp, and flax and tallow. Now, if it is
expedient to run the risk of burning warehouses opposite
each other, which have never been known yet to escape—if
it is expedient and right to do that, with bodies like ware-
houses, which are immoveable—which you can do nothing to
—if they happen to catch it is all over; to use_your engines
up at windows is of no avail, for God knows they do oo good
—I
never saw them ;—if it be right to have them there, what
harm is there in having ships near, where no engine is re-
quired, but the instant application of a wet mop and a bucket
of water? is it not far less risk, too, where the warehouses
are on the Dock? Now, Sir, what would be the arguments
if we had not the example of the London warehouses? But,
Sir, I do hold out their example of never having had a fire
should he decisive as to the security against it ; and then, the

circumstance of the insurance becng-ls. Gd. Ido maintain,
when I look rouna on all you mercantile gentlemen, I de-
mand the position of it is proved. Money is neither Whig
nor Tory; we all know that in every thing we have the
greatest competition ; but all the competition has never
lowered the insurance of Liverpool to anything like London.
Now I do demand the admission of that position from every
mercantile mind in the community. It is proved. I shall
just say one word more, that Mr. Holmes has- had here the
exceedingly bad fortune to leave the general and go into a
specific case—the Dublin warehouses. They for a vast
number of years were conducted by the Crown. The confi-
dence in them was of that nature, that merchants—notwith-
standing that there was a great deal- of wood in their con-
struction—left off insuring from fire. There were some
economists who urged the Government to letting them. If
they had let them to a large company, who of necessity
would be governed by principle, and who would have laws
and a permanent system to adopt, who knows but that, most
likely, the warehouses would have been secure at this present.
day ? No, Sir, Government let them to two brothers, I be-
lieve, and not long afterwards they were burned, and a very

large' mass of prO•perty. Well, there was a case made out
against the National Government; and what between a con-
siderable show of influence, and a little of that kind of wor-
rying, that individual interest, which is never weary of prac-
tising upon public men, the Government actually became
responsible for all this immense wealth. The loss of the
public warehouses went for nothing; there was one West
India house, I believe, made a claim for £25,000. And on
what grounds was the claim made? That the Government
let the warehouses; the consequence was, a different mode
of working them out was adopted in the room of the one
which existed before; there was all that private management
which we all of us know involves great risk; goods were
rolled in and out where there was any space; the bonded
were mixed with the free; porters were let in and out with-
out the surveillance of the regular officers, which you know
governments or companies always have; and the consequence
was, that that altered mode of working the warehouses was
unquestionably the cause of the fire. Not*, Sir, here is that
very argument against our relying upon private warehouses
which has been brought forward to support it. I shall not
trouble you any longer. (Mr. Evans sat down amidst con-
siderable applause.)
Mr. Councillor CURRIE rose to address the Council.
The MAyon.—Does any gentleman second Alderman
'Evans's motion ?
Mr. Councillor WA LMSLEY.—I have pleasure in seconding
it.

Mr. Councillor CuuatE.—ln rising to present myself to
the notice of the council, I need not say that I do so with can-
siderable
hesitation, as the subject under discussion is one of
as great importance as ever occupied our attention; and
which I feel involYes such a variety of interests, both private
and public, that the'ditliculties of the discussion. are greatly
enhanced. With all the desire that 1 have to come forward
to the discussion of the question with my mind totally calm,
so as to address my opinions so that they may give force to
what I intend to -convey, I do find that there is very great
difficulty indeed. The subject is one of pre-eminent import-
ance, and I venture to -say an importance not exceeded by
any measure affecting our interests which has been brought
before us. Tha question that comes before us in our two-told
capacity; first of all as trustees of the Docks, to confirm or
annul the proceedings of the Dock committee as we should
do those of any other committee, that is to say by the ma-
jority; and next, as we are called upon as members of the
town-council, to consider the question in all its bearings with
a view to its success or rejection; in as much as we must
never lose sight of the question, that if it should be lost the
expense will not be paid out of the funds of the docks, but
out of the funds of this council. The council will have to
bear the expense if we lose the application to parliament;
that is a principle for the council to bear in mind. Without
going more into the subject than this, I cannot help regret-
ting, after having read, and after having had put into our
hands the heads of the bill, that it has so many bearings, and
has so many important objects. I cannot help regretting
that that bill should not have been confined to one in which
the town at large might be unanimous, so as to ensure the

passing of the bill. And. without expressing an opinion at
this moment on the question of the warehouses or otherwise,
I cannot help regretting that it would have been more judi-
cious to have brought forward a bill for the other important
objects we have heard this day read, in order, as I said, that
that bill might have had a clause of passing triumphantly
through parliament. Such, however, has nut been the deci-
sion of the gentlemen of the dock committee—a committee
composed of gentlemen who are deeply interested in the
trade, and whose opinions are entitled to the greatest respect.
I would fain impose on your minds this view of the subject.
We have had the heads of bills that would be the subjects of
anxious and deep discussion, and thought, and pains taken
by the several members of the committee. To them, whose
minds have been devoted to the subject for weeks and months
—to them all appears clear; the benefit appears so obvious
that they must be right in the views they have taken; and
they may perhaps think it a most extraordinary thing that
other members of the council do not view the question as
they do. Now, if after many weeks and months spent on
their part in careful thought, is it not too much to call on
those who have not thought on it, in two days, to give an opi-
nion on the subject? (Hear.) I do say, that the seine de-
liberation and attention that they have given to it, we have a
right to claim and are bound in our corporate capacity to
exercise. Wihat I would therefore propose is this—far
from wishing that it should be thought abroad that
this town council will view this question as one in which
the warehouse proprietors alone are concerned, and that
it is to be taken up with such important interests,— I
would, on this occasion, have the members of the council
to shoe, that they are anxious to watch over all the town ;
not only the interests of the warehouse proprietors, but the
interests of the town. If that be the case, am I. asking too
much in requesting you to show that there is no rooted pre-
judice in our minds, so as at the very outset of this question
to nip it in the bud; ant I asking too much, to demand time
to deliberate and discuss this question in all its important
bearings. But ant I wrong, I ask them as candid men, as
fair men, in suffering this measure now to proceed, when I
say that we pledge ourselves in no degree—that no individual
is committed to vote fur the bill afterwards. I think by so
acting, that you would show to the Dock Committee, that you
do what you can to arrive at a just appreciation of the merits
of the measure; and after a full discussion of the subject, it is
found to be advantageous then to determine that the bill should
go on. 'I call on you to do this. In sanctioning a notice being
given to parliament of the bill, you are by no means committed,
to the principle. The Town-clerk will tell you, that notices are
given, in order that opportunities may not be lost ; but it
does not follow but that notices very frequently are reduced
to one half of their original amount. Therefore, by doing
this, if hereafter it should, in the deliberation of the council,
appear that the questions on which my friend Mr. Evans has
so ably touched, and which are deserving the gravest con-
sideration if hereafter it 'appears, when your minds are
stored with that information which you don't now possess,
that it is desirable that the measure should go forwards, we
shall have the satisfaction of showing to the public, that we
don't advocate it on light grounds. , (Hear.) If on the con-
trary, it hereafter should appear that the arguments against
the measure prevail, we shall show by voting against it, that
we have come to this decision, not by private, or interested
motives, but because it is acting the best for the town. This
is a most difficult question; I do not think we ought hastily
to arrest this measure in its progress: let us show that we are
prepared to give it the gravest consideration. It is not the
interest of a particular set of men, but of the whole town;
and let us consider it as such. Bear in mind, by the propo-
sition that I am about to make, no member of the council
stands committed, but he gives an opportunity for further
consideration ; and by such consideration, if hereafter it
should be thought right, to act according to the proposition,
if not, we shall be able to give a reason why we oppose it.
I have not spoken to any one, and I don't know whether my
motion will be seconded, but I would fain persuade myself
that it will be adopted, and that those gentlemen who are
opposed to the introduction of warehouses would consider it
fair to give sanction to this proposition. This proposition
asks for nothing but delay and consideration, and commits
no man one way or the other.
"That the praceedings'and reports of the Dock Committee
be not at present confirmed, but that they be referred to,
[here Mr. Currie said they might either be referred to the
Finance, or to a Special Committee] to enquire concerning,
consider of, and at a meeting, by special adjournment from
the next quarterly Council, to report upon all matters brought
before the Council by the Dock Committee, in relation to
the proposed measures in Parliament, and that it be a parti-
cular instruction to the committee to report upon the follow-
ing points :—Whether it is desirable or not that there should
be warehouses on the dock quays ?—lf it,be, whether such
warehouses ov,ht to be built upon the margin of the dock, or
with quay room between the warehouse and the dock; with
the ground fluor part of the warehouses, or as public quay, or
on what other plan, and on -the number of stories to which
such warehouses ought to be limited?--On increased or de-
creased danger to the town, shipping, and property from fire:
—Whether the use of these warehouses, if erected, ought to
be compulsory on vessels in the dock, or such vessels might
be at liberty to use any of them, or any other warehouses in
the town?—Whether such warehouses must be public pro-
perty. or, subject to reasonable regulations and restrictions,
might be private property public, whether the property
of the Corporation of the Docks, or the Corporation of the
Borough ?
twhether absolute private pi °peril-, or
inthehatd—slfprivate,
of lessees, with the reversion belonging to one,
and which of the Corporations ? and on the advantages and
disadvantages likely to arise from the proposed measures to
commerce and the general interests of the town ? and that
.
the refere4ce comprise both the proposed new dock near the

Salthouse Dock, and the Prince's Dock. 'Fh‘t it be referred
to the Dock Committee to make any report. at the same spe-
cial Council, as they may deem expedient for the further in-
formation of the Council, and that, in the meantime, the
Dock Committee be authorized to give such notice of a bill,
or bills, as they may deem advisable, so far as to secure the

ensuing session., it being understoodthat until further consi-

deration, the Council do not thbreby stand pledged to any
ulterior measures, and that the further consideration of the
proceedings and reports of the Duck and Finance Commit-
tees stand adjourned to the Council to be specially appointed
by adjournment from the next quarterly Council."
With regard to the question of fire; this is a matter of grave
consideration. The moment the fire took place the other
day, several said, " here is an end of the warehouses."
Whereas my friend Mr. Evans, with great ingenuity, has
shown that warehouses built in this way might put an end to
fires. Let all the evidence be got on the subject, which will
bear out our minds and satisfy 'us. I think, gentlemen, I
have said enough to satisfy your minds that this-is but rea-
sonable. I wish you to bear this in mind, that in sanctioning
this bill for promoting measures that may produce its rejec-
tirp, we run the risk of saddling ourselves with the expense.
The warehouse owners cannot say that they are defeated;
far from it. I express no opinion on the subject myself; my
mind is not made up; I pronounce no opinion Upon it. On
the other hand, the members of the dock. committee, who
have so ably brought before us this measure, will feel that we
only as:: for the same information on it as they themselves
have, and on which they have made up their minds.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—Who pays the expenses?
Mr. Councillor CURRIE:—If the bill is successful they are
borne out by the funds of the docks by a clause on the bill
itself;-if not, they are borne out by the borough funds. There
is no doubt of that whatever.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.-1 don't understand that.

The TORN-CLERK.-1f the bill passes there will be a pro-
vision that the expense does not fall on the borough funds ;
but if the bill does not pass, the expense will fall on the pro-
moters; the promoters can only be the town council, acting
in their judgment fur the benefit of the borough.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—Cannot the bill provide against
that?

The TOWN-CLERIC.—If the bill passes; but if the bill does
not pass, there is no authority given.
Mr. Councillor DAVID HODGSON.—Can the Town-clerk
give us any idea what the expense will be ?
The TowN-CLERK.—It is impossible.—l should say £7OO,
and more arising ou an opposition.
Mr. Alderman BitowN.—l rise to second the motion.
Mr. Aldermon BOOTH, who had before risen, again rose.
'rho MAvon.—Mr. Booth rose before. It was arranged
that Mr. Brown should proceed for the purpose of seconding
the amendment.

Mr. Alderman BROWN said his object was postponement.
As his friends Jr. Evans and Mr. Currie were nervous, he
could not say but that he was so when addressing public
meetings, and he had therefore prepared himself with pretty
copious notes. Mr. Brown then proceeded to read a speech
of considerable length; but as we make a point of never
taking notes of written and read speeches, .which, if worth
anything, are generally, 'as a matter of courtesy, handed to
the reporters, we are only able to give the gist of it. He was
an advocate for the land near the docks being -open to private
purchasers to build warehouSes upon • but was opposed to the
dock committee building them. He denied that the building
of warehouses on the docks would give increased despatch.
The principal objection to warehOuses on the verge of the
docks was the risk of fire, which he contended would be very
great, and instanced the warehouse built on the verge of the
New York docks, recently destroyed by fire, as an example
of the danger, they having fallen "like chaff before the
wind." And where would our ships have been at the recent
fire if the warehouses had been on the margin of the docks?
There were two or three ships set on fire as it was. He was
an enemy to all monopolies. He thought individual ware-
house owners would do their work better and cheaper than

monopolists; he detested monopolies; he had been against
them all his life. He thought the present mode of dock ac-
commodation was not proper; he did not like the mode of
charging by tonnage; the charging ought to be according to

_
the room -occupied:
The MAv ort.—That is not the question before us. He
would have regulations adopted so as to ensure despatch.
He would have the landing-waiters paid a fixed salary, and
so much for the work they performed. He would also have
one gang of porters to do the work of each ship. If they got
these matters arranged he did not fear the competition of any
port on earth. Ile was sure it would give them all the ad-
vantage they wished. Speaking of fire, they had had two or
three ships on fire in the docks, and it had been found neces-
sary for the general safety to scuttle them.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—But did not the fires originate in
the holds ?
Mr. Alderman Baowrs.—Yes, they did.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—Aye, there it is.
Mr. Alderman BROWN concluded with seconding the
amendment of Mr. Currie.

Mr. Alderman BOOTH:LI was a good deal surprised to
hear frotn Mr. Currie that he thought this question had not
been sufficiently discussed, after the discussion in the finance
committee-room, the dock cominittte-room, and in the pub-
lic press.