The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-07-29 00:00:00

TI4B LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

a surplus, to what was it in the first instance to be applied?
Was it not understood that it should not be applied to other
than ecclesiastical purposes until all these necessities had been
amply provided for?—and until they were provided for, any
surplus that might arise should certainly not be applied to the
provisions of this bill. This subject had been considered over
and over again in the other house of parliament. It was a ques-
tion of figures, and it bad been shown to absolute demonstration
that there could be no surplus. Indeed, he might say it had
been admitted by the noble viscount himself the other evening,
not certainly in terms, but undoubtedly admitted by the man-
ner in which he conducted himself on that occasion—by his
very gesture and tone, and by the very style in which he told
the-house "There is a surplus for you! " (Hear, and laugh-
ter.) No one, he (Lord Lyndhurst) well knew, could see
through an absurd or ridiculous question sooner than the noble
viscount, and it was very evident that on the occasion alluded
to lie did not so much as desire that any one of their lordships
should suppose he had any other notion of the question than
that it was a ridiculous one. He (Lord Lyndhurst) would ask
their lordships whether the noble viscount did not actually him-
self ridicule and "laugh at the idea of a surplus ? (Hear, hear.)
They were then talking of a non-existing surplus and of a real
deficiency, and yet, taking the calculation according to govern-
ment, how did it stand ? What were they obliged to do ?—Why,-
to reduce 130 livings to £looa-rear. Men of education, brought
up to a learned profession—(hear, hear,)—who were expected
to, live decently, to keep in practice the laws of hospitality, to
maintain the same respectability as persons amongst whom they
lived, to support and educate a family—men of that class were
to have their stipend reduced to £lOO, in order that the govern-
ment might be able to extort something like a surplus. (Hear,
hear.) This was the kind of "proper allowance" his noble and
learned friend was to confer on the clergy. Why, that was a
sum which their lordships would give to an upper servant.
(Hear, hear.) Well, there were eight hundred of the clergy,
rectors, and vicars, who were to receive less than £2OO a-year.
The income of two-thirds of the clergy of Ireland was to be
reduced below £2OO a-year. Were their lordships prepared to
approve of that? If this money were to be drawn from the con-
solidated fund,—if it were to come out of the public purse,
and that they were providing in the first instance for the clergy,
when they might perhaps justly say that they could afford no
more, then indeed there might be some reason for this scanty
provision, hut they were taking from those men the property
they actually possessed. (Loud cries of " Hear.") Would
their lordships descend to such a measure? If the noble
viscount (Melbourne) upon a former occasion last year felt
bound to confess that the measure he then introduced would
inflict a heavy blow upon protestantism in Ireland—if he was for-
ward to admit that it would operate with great discouragement
to the chnrch, and give great triumph to its adversaries—if
that was justly said respecting the measure of last year, what
was to be said of that now under their lordships' considera-
tion ? (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Lyndhurst) would be, no
party to such a measure—(cheers)—ho would be no party to
dealing such a blow upon protestantisin in Ireland—(cheers)—
hewould be no party to inflicting that discouragement upon
the church established, nor would he assist in administering
materials of hope and triumph to its enemies. (Cheers.) And
for what was all this intended ? For the purpose of conciliat-
ing the agitators of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) That was the
avowed purpose—a vain and idle hope. (Loud cheers.) Those
agitators had declared themselves that they would not be con-
ciliated. (Hear, hear.) They had said they -would take this
bill only as an instalment of the debt of justice which they re-
presented to he due to them, (hear, hear,) and that nothing
would satisfy theni short of the extinction of tithe in substance
as well as in name, in whatever form or shape it might be found
to exist. ( Hear, hear.) They had proclaimed in terms too
distinct to be misunderstood, that as loug as the established
church remained an established church, they should continue
to disturb and agitate the land. (Hear, hear.) It was im-
possible—it was vain--it was idle to attempt to quiet and
conciliate spirits of that description; instead of putting an end
to the system which they were now pursuing, this measure of
concession would only tend to increase their eagerness in the
Ipnrsuit of their favourite but destructive schemes. (Hear.)
le proposed that the ecclesiastical commissioners should have
the power—and that power was given to them by the clause he
had prepared—of diminishing or extending particular benefices
in Ireland, with reference to the extent of parishes, the duties
to be performed, and the circumstances of the population, with
power to diminish or augment the income of incumbents in
those respects. He could not better describe the object of the
clause than by referring to a noble lord (Stanley), a member of
the other House of Parliament, whose secession from the go-
vernment the noble viscount took occasion the other night to
declare had been to him a source of deep regret; it would be
sufficient, therefore, to say that the clause had been framed,to
give effect to the wishes and intentions of that noble lord, and
from the encomium pronounced upon him on the occasion to
which he alluded, he trusted the proposition would receive the
support of the noble viscount (Melbourne.) There would he
a power of reducing benefices not in towns which were upwards
of £5OO to £5OO per annum, and to apply any fund that might
arise from such deductions in augmenting smaller benefices,
provided they were not increased beyond £3OO a-year; and he
very much feared there was no fund that could possibly be col-
lected from reducing the higher livings which would enable him
to raise the poorer benefices to the proper and barely adequate
scale. (Hear, hear.) It was not necessary for him at present
to do more than state the general outline of the clause; but he
could hot sit down without entreatingtheir lordships to take the
measure thus altered and modified into their favourable and
candid consideration. He entreated the noble viscount, and
his associates near him, to receive the measure in the same
spirit. (Hear, hear.) Never were men, never was a govern-
ment, placed in a situation more enviable (hear, hear) than that
in which the noble viscount at present stood. (Ironical cheers
from both sides the house.) He did not mean to sneer—such
Was not his practice or habit—he 'spoke in sober seriousness.
By accepting y
wouldth putasebillan end to the se
it now stood, they would
of thisuldtranquillize
t
Ireland, they
question which had so long disquieted and agitated that country,
and provide for the security of the empire at large. (Hear.)
The noble viscount might live long, he might perform much,
but nothing he would ever achieve could exceed the good he
would ever accomplish by adopting this measure as now mo-
dified by the proposition which ho called upon their lordships
to sanction by their approval. (Cheers.) The noble and
learned lord concluded by moving that the 50th clause be struck
out, for the purpose of substituting that which he had prepared
for the purpose of carrying into effect the objects above stated.
The clause having been read,
Lord MELBOURNE rose and said, notwithstanding the various
modes of persuasion and attempts to convince adopted by the
noble and learned lord in the course of his very laboured and
eloquent speech—notwithstanding the ridicule in which he had
indulged in one part, and the entreaties he addressed in another,
it was perfectly impossible for him (Lord Melbourne) to corn-
ply with the request or adopt the course which had been so
forcibly recommended by the noble and learned lord. The same
request had been made by a noble friend on the cross bench,
which had cut short and nipped the hope rising in his mind
during the whole debate, that instead of asking concession from
him, noble lords on the other side would have been prepared to
concede the principle of appropriation, to what he undoubtedly
regarded the general wish which the country felt upon the sub-
ject, and the necessity of at length concluding the discussion
of this question, and which might easily be effected if the noble
and learned lord would only give way on the present occasion.
(Hear.) The noble and learned lord had cited arguments used
on a former occasion by him (Lord Melbourne)—he had made
an attack on many parts of the measure, and opened much
matter of his own; he (Lord Melbourne) begged leave dis-
tinctly and at once to state, that if the noble and learned lord
persisted in striking out that clause, the omission of which he
professed his intention to move, and which he seemed to think
he might do without violating what it would be disorderly more
particularly to advert to, if he persisted he begged leave to tell
the noble and learned lord most distinctly that he could not do
so without its provinc, at once fatal to the whole measure. The
noble and learned lord seemed to Think if he were to amend
the clause—

Lord LYNDHURST—You mean the 53d?
Lord.MELßouarm.--The noble lord seemed to think if he
were to amend that clause, being a money clause, it must prove
fatal to the bill, but not so if it were to be omitted altogether,
But that was not the case, and he would tell the noble and
learned lord if he persisted in his motion for omitting that
clause, for his part, undoubtedly, he (Lord Melbourne) should
wash his hands of the: bill altogether. (Hear, hear.) He would
in no respect persevere with a measure which was deprived of
that principle to which he was pledged, and which he conceived
was absolutely necessary, in order to make this arrangement
effectual and sufficient for the purposes for which it was in-
tended. (Hear, hear.) The noble and learned lord had re-
torted on him some. arguments he had used on a former occa-
sion, and he seemed to think that the idea of declining num-
bers might now be used successfully against him. But the no-
tide and learned lord did not yield to litiat argument when it was
ormerly used. It Thad no force whatever when he (Lord Mel-
bourne) employed' it, and therefore he did not see why it should
be expected to have much weight with him on the present occa-
sion.

Lord LYNDHURi;T.—It was your own argument.
Lord MELBOURNE.--Blit the noble and learned lord should
recollect that the progressive rise in numbers to which he (Lord
Melbourne) had alluded was from seven to ten to eighty-six,
whereas the decline the noble and learned lord spoke of was
only from thirty-seven to twentv-six (hear, hear,)— a decline
which might be matter of accident, but whether it was or not,
he (Lord Melbourne) would say his majesty's government stood
on principle, not one whether they received support or not, but
decidedly on what-they conceived necessary to the safety and
well-being of the country. They stood on that to which they
were pledged—if not supported, they were undoubtedly ready
instantly to resign the offices they held ; but he for one would
not resign while he conceived himself supported by a majority
.of the other house of parliament (hear, hear), and by a ma-
jority of the country. (Hear, hear). He did not intend to go
►nto those insinuations which the noble and learned lord had
sbeeesnupanpdosiemd
pteorebeep.aicilitlierigi,nufinuceonncsecsiothueslrye tomhi
onWhhisatun
thrown out with respect to the influence under which he must
con-
duct and opinions it was of course impossible for him to ascer-
tain—no one could sav—h had when the noble I
gimhtsbeler.
eonly to say,
learned lord declared-that this measure was adopted for the pur-
pose of conciliating the agitator of Ireland—
Lord LYN nuitlLZST.—i said agitators in the plural.•
Viscount M ELROV RN E begged leave at once entirely to deny
the charge. This measure was brought forward for the purpose
of generally conciliating the whole Irish people—for the pur-
pose of doing what the noble and learned lord admitted ought
to be done—finally settling this question, which had so long dis-
turbed Ireland, and produced so much division, discord, and
dissention in that house. The resolution relative to appropria-
tion had been adopted at the beginning of last session of parlia-
ment, at the end of a violent political conflict, which neverthe-
less, had been conducted with more temperate language and
conduct than was usual on such occasions—(hear, hear). But
though there was usually great heat in such contests, yet if there
was any thing violent or imprudent in the resolution—if there
was any thing rash, any thing indiscreet about it, he thought
noble lords on the opposition side of the house as much respon-
sible for it as were those on his own (" hear, hear," and a laugh.)
Those who began a conflict, or who pressed it on too long, were
responsible for the disadvantages which sprung from it. No-
ble Lords opposite held office too long (cheers and a laugh.)
They sht.uld have resigned sooner. They should have resigned
when they found that the House of Commons was opposed to
them—that they did not possess its confidence- (a laugh.) That
was his opinion, for there was not a single vote that did not ma-
nifest an the part of the house a want of confidence in the very
government which had called them together. It' there was any
thing rash or violent about the resolution, it was superinduced
by that unconstitutional proceeding—(hear, hear.) in his opi-
nion, it was a wise resolution, such as was calculated to settle
the question on grounds really satisfactory to the country.
Therefore it was that, in point of honour, in point of feeling,
and in point of reason, he considered himself bound to adhere
to the principle contained in the resolution, as well in spirit as
in letter, and he should on those grounds negative the clause as
proposed by the noble and learned lord.—(Cheers.)
A long discussion ensued, in which the amendment was sup-
ported by Lord Mansfield, the bishop of Exeter, the Earl Of
Winchelsea, and- the Archbishop of Armagh ; and opposed by
Lord Hatherton, Lord Holland, and the Marquis of Clanri-
carde.

Their lordships then divided, when there appeared
For the amendment
For the original clause ' 47
Majority for the amendment -91
On our readmission to the gallery, we found the noble chair

Man putting the question that the 77th clause be omitted from
the bill, when their lordships again divided—
The numbers were—
For the clause 47
Against it 135
Majority against the clause —BB
The remaining clauses were gone through, the house resumed,
and the report was ordered to be taken into consideration to-
morrow (Tuesday.)
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter before two o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MONDAY

The Trinity Harbour bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Tuesday.
Mr. BENNETT entered into a long explanation in contradic-
tion of the statement which Mr. Cundy made last week, at the
bar of the house.