The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-03-13 00:00:00

PRIVILEGE.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the second reading of the
printed papers' bill.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN offered several suggestions for pre-
venting the publication of objectionable matter. There was
one clause of the bill with regard to pending actions which he
felt to be most objectionable, and which he hoped would not
be retained, as he had no conception that it would be agreed
to elsewhere.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended the clause respecting
actions, to which objections had been taken by Sir Edward
Sugden.
Sir ROBERT PEEL read a passage from the report of 1837,
to prove that those who were most anxious for the mainte-
nance of their privileges were equally desirous to abstain
from inflicting any unnecessary pain.
Sir R. INGLIS objected to the bill as ea. post facto legis-
lation.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said there was a suggestion from the
honourable member for Ripon, which he should certainly
take into consideration, though he was not then prepared to
enter on the point.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Friday.
In answer to a question from Lord Sandon, Lord PAL-
MERSTON said, that Dr. Bowring's report on the subject of
the Prussian Commercial League had been received ; but
he thought it right to look it over himself before publishing
it.

SUPPLY.
On the question for going into supply having been put and
carried,
Mr. HOME entered on the financial position of the country.
The deficit, he said, was caused, not by any falling off in the
revenue, but by an increased expenditure. If her majesty's
gOvernment did not give some explanations as to the neces-
sity for increased establishments, amounting to 137,000 men
for army, navy, and ordnance, he should certainly divide the
house. In addition to the military force, a large police was
to be provided for ; and the latter was by far the more
efficient body for maintaining the peace of the eountry. He
should certainly.propose the reduction of the army estimates
to those of last year.
Col. SIBTHORP-amplained that though the honourable
gentleman examinedthe items of the estimates very narrowly,
he never would joid in any measure for throwing the go-
vernment fairly over.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the hon. member for Kilkenny
ought to have made his proposition last year, when he (Lord
J. Russell) stated his reasons for an augmentation, which
met with the general concurrence of the house. In reference
to the American boundary question, he said we had no rea-
son to complain of the general projects of the American go-
vernment, or of the acts of the president, because they had
done every thing that was friendly to this country ; but we
had to take some precautionary steps to guard against the
incursions of very disorderly gangs of persons on a territory
which they looked upon as not belonging to either party. He
was sure the house would not refuse to place the army in
such a state of efficiency as to provide for the wants of this
great empire.
The house having resolved itself into a committee of sup-
ply, Mr. MACAULAY said the whole force estimated in Feb-
ruary, 1839, including the force for India, was 109,818 ; and
this year it was 121,112, making an addition of 11,294; but
of these 7746 were employed in the defence of India, and
chargeable on the revenues of that country. There remained
an increase of 3548 to be added to the 5000 men voted last
August. The right hon. gentleman proceeded to describe
the mode in which the additions to the force would be dis-
posed of. The additions to the number consisted chiefly of
men; sixty-five men, consisting of four serjeants, four cor-
porals, and fifty-seven privates, having been added to every
one of the eighty-one battalions of infantry in the United
Kingdom, thereby raising them from 835 to 900 men.
He wished the house to understand, that if the number of
4,408 which were to be added to the army were struck off,
no means of disarming opposition, or gaining support, would
be taken away from the Crown ; for if any gentleman took the
trouble of looking through the different ranks of the service
he would find that the charge for officers this year was dimi-
nished by £2,000. Of the 121,112 men composing the mili-
tary establishment, 28,213 would be charged on foreign reve-
nues, leaving 92,899 to be provided for by the country. The
right honourable gentleman described the effect of the system
of giving additional pay and badges for good conduct. The
number of men wearing the good conduct badges was about
13,000. The right hon. gentleman having entered into
several further explanations, concluded with moving, that
£3,511,870 2s. Bd. be granted to her Majesty, to defray the
charge for the land forces for the United Kingdom and the
colonies.
Mr. HUMS contended that a small regular force was at all
times more efficient than one composed of men who were
only half soldiers and half civilians. He should propose to
reduce the number of men to what it was in the year 1837-8,
namely, to 81,319.
Mr. WILLIAMS (Coventry) seconded the amendment.
General SHARPE pointed out the inadequacy of a police
force to preserve the peace.
Lord HowicK, so far from thinking that the vote ought to
be reduced, was rather disposed to regret that it was not
larger. He could hardly understand how it would be in the
power of his right honourable friend to provide during the
present year for that relief which, in justice to the army,
ought to take place.
Sir H. HARDINGE concurred with Lord Howick as to the
absolute necessity for providing a better system of relief for
the troops employed in the colonies. Upon the whole, he
approved of the vote. On a division, the amendment was
lost by a majority of 100 to 8, and the original resolution put
and carried.
The Prisons' Amendment Bill was read a second time, when
Mr. WARBURTON gave notice " that, in committee on
this bill, he should propose the insertion of a clause, enact-
ing that persons convicted of a political libel should not be
treated, under the regulations of the prison, as those con-
victed of criminal misdemeanours." In proposing this
clause, he referred more particularly to the treatment to
which Lovett and Collins had been exposed in Warwick gaol.
Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—TUESDAY.
Lord MORPETH appeared at their lordships' bar, and pre-
sented the municipal corporations (Ireland) bill.
On the motion of Lord MELBOURNE that bill was read the
first time, and ordered to be read the second time on Monday,
the 30th inst.

The Marquis of NORMANBY presented returns respecting
Irish peerages created since the union, and of peerages sup-
posed to be extinct.
The Marquis of LAN DSOWNE presented a petition from
the London Medical Society, praying for the adoption of
means to secure the further success ovaceination.
It was suggested that a bill should he brought in to provide
the required facilities for medical aid among the poor
throughout the country.
The Marquis of NORMANBY considered the subject so im-
portant that he should cause all possible inquiry to be made,
in order to ascertain how the evil complained of could be re-
medied.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUESDAY.
Several private bills were read a first time, and a number
of petitions presented.
The Taff railway, after opposition and a division, was read
a second time, by a majority of 129 to 126.
On the motion of Lord SA.NOON, P rornott's naturalization
bill and Hausberg's naturalization_bill, were read a second
time.
Several notices of motion were given, and others post-
poned.
Sir J. WALSH withdrew his noticeof moteiofn„ianlefagl'soltaitrivoef
a resolution declaratory of the expedient}'
enactment" to authorize the publication of Parliamentary
Papers, Lord J. Russell's Bill having superseded the ne-
cessity for such a step.
THE BANKING SYSTEM•
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose to move
for a committee upon the effects produced on the circulation
by the various banks issuing notes payable on demand. The
subject, he said, was one of which the consideration could
not have been deferred much longer ; for in 1844 the charter
of the Bank of England would expire. The general conduct
of that bank, as well as of all others issuing notes payable on
demand, would come within the scope of his proposal, not
with a view to vindictive, but only to remedial legislation.
There was now a general feeling in the country, that a time
had arrived when parliament should do something for the
settlement of the bankine system, and this feeling was cer-
tainly a very reasonable one, after two periods of distress in
the monied world succeeding each other with so short an in-
terval. He had never thought for a moment of exempting
the Bank of England from the proposed inquiry ; that would
have been to act the play of Hamlet with the omission of
Hamlet's character. The present was a favourable period,
for the public were disposed to approach the subject in a calm
and temperate spirit. It would be an important question for
the committee, whether the present privileges of the Bank of
England ought to be sustained, or a system of free banking
substituted ; and whether its present powers were such as
they ought to be. With respect to the Bank of Ireland, he
should wish to render its charter coterminous with that of
the Bank of England, which was the object of last year's dis-
continued bill, but he did not just now introduce another
bill to that effect, because this would be to prejudge a part of
the policy which was to be referred to the committee.
Mr. GISBORNE was desirous to include those banks which,
though they issue no notes of their own, yet issue the notes
of the Bank of England. The Bank of England was under
contract to supply them with notes at three per cent. ; and
these notes, at this low price, were of course most largely
called for in times when money was scarce and dear ; so that
the issues of the Bank of England were increased just when
the state of affairs required their contraction.
Mr. ELLis objected to the principle of getting up a com-
mittee for the purpose of shifting responsibility from
ministers.
Mr. HUME wished the committee to go into the question
of currency, with a view of coming as near as possible to a
metallic circulation.
Mr. GROTE was desirous of a committee, which he thought
would be useful chiefly for ascertaining what are really the
obligations of the Bank of England and other banks with
reference to the currency.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD wished the committee to tra,ticyeab cioe o
gnir;
zance of other paper as well as that which is
demand. He said that nine-tenths of the circulation in
7C(..---1 ~ shire consisted of paper not payable in that manner,
:.": --.- 1 it encouraged speculation just as much as bank notes.
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414

The people wished to see something done ; but what they
.wanted was a measure, not a committee.
Mr. CLAY said the appointment of a committee was con-
formable to precedent, and was particularly fitting now,
because the public mind was not so near to a state of unani-
mity as to give a hope that there would just yet be any general
agreement in any measuic which could be proposed. The
former committee had produced no actual result, but it had
brought out much valuable information.
Sir ROBERT PEEL hoped the scope of the committee would
not be made so comprehensive as to become useless. There
were certain leading considerations which should be kept in
view, else the attendance on the committee would be desul-
tory, and doubt and embarrassment would be thrown over
all the business of the banks. It would be useful to examine
the relative advantages of limited and unlimited responsibi-
lity ; to examine the proceedings of the banks which issue
only the notes of the Bank of England ; to examine the dis-
tinction between banks of issue and banks of deposit, and the
policy 'of rendering them separate: But it would not be use-
ful to investigate the management of particular joint-stock
banks; and least of all to go into any inquiry which could
lead to a notion that parliament had any thoughts of unset-
tling the basis of the currency and the standard of value.
Mr. C. WOOD was inclined to expect much useful infor-
mation from-a committee.

Mr. HAWES thought it should include the law of partner-
ship in its deliberations.

Sir JOHN REID rejoiced in the temperate tone of the de-
bate, and assured the house that the Bank of England had
no jealousy of the joint-stock companies.
Mr. SLANEY wished, for the sake of the poor, that the
banks should be obliged to give security for their circulation.
Lord SANDON observed, that since the discontinuance of
the small notes, very little bank paper was in the hands of
the poor.

The motion was then agreed to.
THE CONVICTED TRAITORS.

Mr. LEADER next brought on his motion for a free par-
don to Frost, Williams, and Jones. He did not ground
himself, he said, on the merits of the case, for he admitted
the full extent and magnitude of the crime ; but he proceeded
on the ground that the law had been strained against the
prisoners. That was a general feeling among the working
classes, and the petitions for free pardon proved it, being
signed by 120,000 persons. The only authorities entitled to
determine the question of law raised at the trial were the
three judges before whom that trial was held ; and it had
turned out, when the subsequent decisions of the fifteen
judges were made known, that the opinions of two of those
three were in favour of the objection; so that if*they had
decided on the spot, an acquittal would have been the result.
Mr. HuME seconded the motion of Mr. Leader, whose
arguments he repeated.
Mr. F. MAuLE regretted this attempt to make the house
a tribunal of appeal from the prerogative. The offence was
fai more than a political one : it struck at the very roots of
society and of the constitution. On the question whether the
prisoner was entitled to the benefit of the judges' opinion,
as he would have been if given on the spot, a memorial had
been presented to the home department from Frost's council,
Sir F. Pollock and Mr. Kelly ; and tá that memorial the
three judges had sent an answer, which Mr. F. Maule now
read to the house. They therein stated, that the usage is to
decide any doubtful point against the prisoner, in order that
the trial may proceed, and to reserve the point. If there be
a verdict of guilty, and the judges to whom the reserved
point is referred decide against the prisoner, the verdict takes
effect ; if they decide for him, the judge who tried him
makes application to the secretary of state, who gives effect
to the objection ; and thus, in either event, there is no failure
of justice. That two of three judges at the trial inclined
towards the objection made no difference ; for the law is
taken from the majority of the judges, before whom the re-
served point is heard.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE admitted that their crimes had ren-
dered their lives forfeit. But that was not the question ; the
question was, bad they had the full benefit of the law ? In
Williams's case the objection was taken in time before the
trial began ; yet the attorney-general had proceeded. Mr.
Duncombe regretted that in the debate Frost's counsel had
not attended, to give their client the benefit of their speeches

and votes.
Dr. LIISHINGTON congratulated the house that the crime
was on all sides admitted to be incapable of palliation. He
deprecated an appeal from the prerogative to parliament on
questions of punishment ; the circumstances which guided the
secretary of state were often such as it would be most injuri-
ous to make public. In this case the prisoners had been
gainers rather than losers by the irregularities they complain-
ed of, in the delivery of the two documents at separate peri-
ods ; for as one had been delivered earlier, and the other not
later, than the•law required, the prisoners had, as to the
earlier of the two, a longer time for preparation than the law
entitled them to claim. The learned gentleman then en-
larged on the expediency and fitness of the rule as stated by
three judges. The absence of Sir F. Pollock was evidently
with the kindest intention. He had made a splendid defence,
and exerted his great faculties with an independence and
an industry unexampled, but well knew that he should little
serve his client by the opinion he would have to express if he
were to speak as a member of parliament. Dr. Lushington
added, that he wished to see no mote of these attempts, not
only because he disliked the interference of the house with
the prerogative, but because he thought the house uncompe-
tent to discuss any legal question of depth and difficulty.
Mr. WA KLEY made an unsuccessful attack upon the judges,
but extolled the extraordinary ability and zeal of the prison-
ers' counsel, in whose absence this motion should not, he
thought, be pressed to a division.
Mr. LEADER, however, declined to take his advice, and
the motion, on a division, was negatived by a majority of
68 to 5.
The house soon afterwards adjourned.