The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-11-16 00:00:00

THE BRAZILIAN QUESTION AND THE
" MANCHESTER GUARDIAN."

The Manchester Guardian has a long article on Saturday,
in reply to a few remarks which we offered in our last upon
the subject of our relations with Brazil ; and although we
have bestowed some attention upon the lucubrations of our
contemporary, we really cannot discover that he has thrown
much light upon the question. The tone of our article has
not pleased the Guardian. We indulge, it appears, in " had
jokes," and are not so attentive as we might be to that sto-
lidity of style with which our contemporary is accustomed to
dole forth his profound observations upon " grave questions
of national policy." But, with this exception, we are at a
loss to perceive in what we have offended ; and certainly we
cannot admit that in one position the Guardian has met us
with a refutation. . . .

Our contemporary, in the article which called forth our
remarks, was anxious to represent the possible raising of the
import duties, levied under the present Brazilian tariff, as
likely to be influenced by a spirit of hostility on the part of
the Brazilian government towards this country. We doubted,
and we doubt still, whether that government will be influ-
enced by any such feeling; and we are still of opinion that,
in attributing such a feeling to it, " the wish," in the mind
of our contemporary, was " father to the thought." There
was a " flippancy of tone"—if we must retort upon him—in
the Guardian's article, which certainly did not lead to the
supposition that the retaliatory legislation spoken of was
viewed with any great dissatisfaction ; and when we bear in
mind the fact that the very course represented as in contem-
plation by the Brazilian government has been pointed out to
it by the organs of the whig party in this country, we can
really reconcile ourselves to the " decency and propriety" of
having imputed satisfaction to the Guardian in remarking
upon it.
Upon the main question between Great Britain and the
Brazils we are not at all moved by the Guardian's remarks.
' It is not a question of merely commercial policy ; and were
it even so, we cannot see that it is at all necessary to adopt
the Guardian's views. The choice is given to us between
two great markets for our manufactures—our own free-labour
Colonies, and the slave-worked and slave-importing country
of Brazil. We know that by transferring our custom from
the former to the latter we shall rivet the fetters upon the
limbs of millions of our fellow beings without adding one
benefit to the trade of Great Britain ;—that, in fact, we shall
virtually proclaim to the world that the great experiment of
negro emancipation, in which we have made so noble a
sacrifice, is a failure; and, although temporarily, we may
experience an inconvenience from perseverence in it, we have
no fear that the mind of the nation can be wrought upon to
abandon it as yet.
The Guardian is anxious for " the benefit of our cogi-
tations " upon the effect which the imposition of heavy
protecting duties have upon the " revenue and commerce"
of countries generally. It is scarcely worth our while to
enlighten our contemporary. We may state, however, our
opinion generally upon this point. We do not think that a
government should legislate for " revenue and commerce "
solely. Nobler and higher purposes should actuate us; and
upon this particular question the government of Great Britain
would, in our humble opinion, be strangely wanting in virtue
and manliness if it omitted any opportunity of declaring its
firm determination to persevere in the course which it has
entered upon to discourage the consumption in Great Britain
of every foreign product which is raised by the toil of slaves.

ABSTRACT OF THE LOG OF THE "COLUMBIA"
STEAM-SHIP, CAPT. C. H. E. JUDKINS,
From Boston, U.S., and Halifax, N.S., to Liverpool.

Nov. I.—Sailed from Boston at 3 p.m.
2.—Running for Halifax.
3.—Arrived at Halifax at 7 a.m.
4.—Sailed from Halifax at 4i p.m. Passed the Britannia
at 5 p.m., going into harbour, all well. 6 p.m. Sambo Light
bore W. by S. 9 miles, from which we took our departure.
s.—Distance 210 miles. Wind S.E. Strong breeze, and
squally.
6.—Wind S.S.W. Steady breeze, and clear weather.
7.-211 miles. S.S.W. Moderate and clear.
8.-244 miles. S.W. Fresh breeze, and cloudy.
9.-244 miles. N. Moderate and clear.
10.-232 miles. E. Moderate and cloudy.
11.-226 miles. E.N.E. Moderate and clear.
12.-252 miles. N.W. Strong breeze and cloudy wea-
tter' with a long swell from N.W.
13..-262 miles. N.W. Strong breeze and cloudy wea-
tber,.with lightning and rain.
14.-242 miles. N.E. Strong breeze and clear. 5 a.m.
Cape Clear Light bore N.E. by E. At 8 p.m. abreast of
Tuskar.
15.—0 f Holyhead at 4 a.m., and arrived at Liverpool at
11 a.m.

A „Alovwxykav or FAT.—Mr. Dawson, of the George the
Fourth, Leonard-street,. Derby, whose hog pig was slaugh-
tered a. few days ago, weighed the enormous sum of 9861b5.,
or 123 stones .21bs., 81b: to the stone, London weight.—
Derby paper.
.-CWhieb. is the mountain—Mr. Dawson, or
.116 pig if

ADJOURNED NIEETING. OF' THE
TOWN COUNCIL.

The adjourned meeting of the Town Council was Lehi yes•
terday for the purpose of proceeding with the anpointmen
of the remaining committees. The MAYOR presided.
ADDRESS TO THE QtEEN.
_ _ _

Mr. SANDS said, before they proceeded with the usual bu-
siness there was one subject which ought, and he was sure
would, by the unanimous consent of the council, have prece-
dence over every other. That subject was one of ye lr great
importance, one involving not only the interests of tl is town
and of the British empire, but one in which he must venture
to say the whole world' was interested. It was a subject
upon which, as Englishmen, they felt very deep inter,st, and
on which-all could unite. Here there were no jarring
strings; here they felt themselves upon common :;round,
desirous only to express their loyal attachment to the throne
and the constitution, and he would say their humble grati-
tude to Almighty God, for having preserved her Majesty
upon the occasion to which he adverted. He was quite sure
that they would all be most ready and most happy to offer to
her Majesty their hearty congratulations upon the birth of a
,Prince and heir apparent to the throne of these realms. He
therefore begged to propose the following resolution—" That
a dutiful and loyal address be presented to her Majesty, and
also an address to his royal highness Prince Albert, and her
royal highness the Duchess of Kent, upon the joyful occasion
of the birth of a Prince` and heir apparent to the throne of
these realms," and that a committee be appointed to prepare
the address.
Mr. Joux HoLmEs seconded the motion.
On the motion of Mr. BUSHELL, seconded by Mr. PROC-
TER, a committee was appointed to prepare the addresses.
The following are the gentlemen of the committee :—the
Mayor, Mr. Sands, Mr. John Holmes, Mr. John B. Lloyd,
and Mr. Robertson Gladstone.
It was next resolved, on the motion of Mr. JAMES LAW-
RENCE, and seconded by Mr. JOHN SMITH, that a deputa-
tion, consisting of the Mayor, Mr. Sands, and Mr. John
Holmes should proceed with-the addresses to London, for
the purpose of presenting them.

APPOINTMENT OF THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE.
Mr. Alderman EARLE supposed the council would now go
on with the business of the day, the first of which was the
appointment of the Education. Committee. The gentlemen
who undertook to form the Education Committee when last
the council met, notwithstanding the advantages they had of
previous consultation and deliberation failed in their attempt,
for they had not even satisfied their own friends, much less
those that were opposed to them on- this question. He was
aware that the subject was not without its difficulties. It
was a very important one, and the most important that could
come before them ; and he thought there could be little
doubt of its being settled in a manner that would satisfy all
reasonable parties if it were referred to the consideration of
men of deliberate judgments and good sound sense. He had
the honour of belonging to the Education Committee for a
considerable time, and he had taken a very lively interest in
the schools. The lower orders in Liverpool, he thought, had
derived immense benefit from them, particularly that portion
of the community which had most need of them. The bro-
therly kindness and the total absence of all discord upon reli-
gious principles from religious motives which had existed
among the schools, was a very pleasing feature, and he attri-
buted it to the system which had been adopted. He must
appeal to many gentlemen who were upon the committee
last year to say whether there was not a great deal too much
good done in the schools to induce them to do anything that
would injure their general utility ' • that they would rather be
disposed to adopt measures which a spirit of mutual concilia-
tion would naturally suggest. Those schools, like the agita-
tion of the poor-law and the protestant association, had
been used as a political machine for the purpose of raising
certain parties into power. He did not, however, com-
plain of that, as many people thought all that was
justified in political warfare. It now appeared that the leader
of the tories did not choose to wield these weapons any
longer, as they might become dangerous to the party. In
justification of this assertion he would only appeal to the
Times—and he was sure his friends upon the opposite
benches could not reasonably object to such, an authority—
which said, or from its language one might calculate, that
those who harangued at such meetings were little better than
crazy-pated fanatics, hardly fit to be at liberty without a.
keeper, and the advocates of measures totally at variance
with common sense. It must always be borne in mind that'
these schools, and all the property of the corporation, be-
longed to the public at large, and that they were to be used
for the benefit of the public without any reference whatever
to religious creed. The act of parliiment under which the
council met, recognised that principle to the .fullest extent.
They were shorn of all their church, patronage ; and from
that circumstance he held it was cinite clear that the legisla-
ture never intended the corporate funds to be applied to the
benefit of any particular community. He should propose to
the consideration of the council acertain number of gentle-
men who, he thought, would form a very good committee
of education. He hoped that those gentlemen who might
be named would not offer excuses for not attending or for
not accepting the appointment. He was aware that there
were many who had valid reasons, upon account of their
various occupations to wish to be off the committee, but he
would suggest the expediency of the council allowing those
gentlemen to retire from it and others be substituted, as soon
as the knotty points of the question had been settled to the
satisfaction of all parties. He had purposely omitted some
names upon his list upon account of the particular line of
conduct they had taken. Some of those who were very fre-
quently in the habit of referring to the scriptures, he would
remind them that there was a passage to be found there
which said, " Blame not before thou bast examined the
truth; understand first and then rebuke." (Hear, and cries
of " question.") Now he had heard a great deal of rebuke,
but he had never yet heard that any of the gentlemen who
were loudest in their complaints against the schools, ever
went into those schools, and there understood and examined
the truth. (Hear, hear.) They had, upon various occasions,
broached opinions that rendered them disqualified entirely
from acting upon the committee, even supposing they pos-
sessed in other respects competency for the task—a question
which he by no means admitted. When a wound was in a
healing state, and showed a disposition to close, he thought
it was unsound practice to apply perpetual blisters to it; he
therefore hoped, as this wound seemed to be in a way of
healing, the council would adopt conciliatory and healing
measures. The committee he should propose was—Mr. H.
R. Sandbach, Mr. T. Sands,--Mr. R. Gladstone, Mr. C.
Bushell, Mr. G. H. Lawrence, Mr. A. Smith, jun., Mr.
Alderman Nicol, Mr. J. Bratriley Moore, Mr. R. S. rook,
Mr. J. H. Turner,—ten all upon one side, and• Mr. J. Mel-
lor, Mr. T. Bolton, Mr. J. .Aikiny Mr. Alderman Evans,
and Mr. T. B. Barclay.
Mr. HonGsoN submitted that Mr. Earle was_ proceeding
irregularly. • Mr. Sandbach had moved the adjournment of
the council, and therefore he was. entitled to the possession
of the chair.
The MAYOR said, as this was an adjourned meeting, Mr.
Sandbach was in possession of the chair.
Mr: SANDBACH quite agreed that he was in possession,
but he had no wish whatever to interfere with his friend Mr.
Alderman Earle.
Mr. BoriroN contended that Mr. Sandbach must go on.

Mr. Alderman EARLE said, he shoUld not have -opened
the debate had he not had the opinion of the Town-clerk
that he was competent to do so.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the adjournment was one of the
council, and therefore any member was at liberty to com-
mence. If the adjournment had been one of the debate
only, then the member must
.take up the subject who had
moved the adjournment.
Mr. Alderman EARLL
was right.
Mr. BRIGHT should not have risen on this occasion were
it not that he felt deeply interested in the continuation of the
present system. A strong clamour had been raised against
it at one period, but it bad gradually subsided, till latterly
we had scarcely heard anything of it. (Hear.) We ought
to bear in mind, that by several acts of parliament, passed
not very long since, the old spirit of exclusiveism had been
abolished. The Test and Corporation Act had been repealed;
and others had subsequently passed giving to all persons—
without exception, without distinction of creed or opinion—
equal rights and equal privileges. They had the schools

—That is exactly so. I knew I

upon their hands when the council was first formed, and the
Question was, how could they best apply the funds of the
Corporation to the continuation of a system of education
adapted to the equal rights of all. (Hear.) It was a diffi-
cult question undoubtedly; and after great deliberation, a
system had been devised that had won its way by the opinion
of the public, and which, with little exception, became, he
might say, a popular system. It was admirably adapted to
meet the wants and the requireMents of all. From what he
had seen of it, he believed that there were at this moment
few who discredited or inclined to doubt the proper use of
the Bible in the schools. That was first of all discovered--
The MAYOR, with all due deference to Mr. Bright, thought
that the immediate subject of discussion was not the manage-
ment of the schools, but the appointment of a committee.
The council at present had nothing to do with the mode of
management adopted.
Mr. BRIGHT was strictly confining himself to the motion
introduced by Mr. Earle, but if he was out of order, he
should bow to the decision of the chair.
The MAYOR repeated, that the appointment of the com-
mittee was the subject under consideration. When the in-
structions to the committee were read it would be competent
in Mr. Bright to speak on the points to which he referred.
Mr. BRIGHT said, the object in proposing a list of gentle-
men entertaining moderate opinions was, that the system now
pursued in the schools might have fair and proper considera-
tion. He certainly viewed with considerable jealousy the
list proposed by Mr. Sands at the last meeting. In that list
he found the indication of a certain line of conduct to which
he could not, by any means, agree ; it indicated, from the
previously expressed opinions of the gentlemen upon it, what
would be the course of a committee so constituted. He
therefore felt a strong desire, having been named upon it, to
have the name of some other gentleman substituted, whose
opinions might be more accordant with those of the majority
so proposed. He would not detain the council further than
to say, that lie cordially concurred in the motion of Mr. Al-
derman Earle.

Mr. SANDBACH rose, but gave way to
Mr. SANDS, who said he should move an amendment to
the motion proposed by Mr. Earle—
Mr. BOLTON would interrupt Mr. Sands just to suggest
that each name should be put separately, and that any objec-
tion to each so proposed, should also be separately discussed.
(Cries of " No, no.")
The MAYOR said the entire list must be read first.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—To brinT the matter to a point,
I rise to move that Mr. Sandbach be appointed a member of
the Education Committee.

Mr. BOLTON.—I second the motion.
Mr. PROCTER thought that Mr. Sands's list should be read
as well as Mr. Earle's.

Mr. SANDS said, he was quite in the hands of the council.
He had a list to propose, which he would read if permitted.
The MAYOR said, that as Mr. Alderman Earle had read
his list, Mr. Sands ought to read his ; and that it would be
much better to propose the names seriatim.
Mr. COOPER called for Mr. Sands's list to be read, to en-
able the council to choose the best names.
Mr. SANDS having observed that there were many names
upon his list which were also upon Mr. Earle's, read the
following.—Mr. Molyneux,t.Mr. A. Smith, junior, Mr. Chil-
ton, Mr. Crook, Mr. Priestley, Mr. Bulley, Mr. Gladstone,
Mr. Platt, Mr. Sanabach, Mr. G. H. Lawrence, Mr. Alder-
man Houghton, Mr. Hodgson, and Mr. Sands. Of these,
seven were churchmen, and the restof various denominations.
There were ten conservatives, and the rest were liberals—.
Mr. JORDAN.—Very liberal !
Mr. PLATT observed that 13 names had been read, whereas
the former committee consisted of 15.

Mr. Alderman E ARLE-I thought the former committee
was constituted of 15 memmbers.

Mr. SANDS continued, that the list he had read consisted
of seven Churchmen, two Wesleyan methodists—which was
the same thing, and four dissenters. The committee was
originally composed of 15 or 16, but that number was
thought too large.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY.—Have you any objection to
seven of one description, two of another, and four of a third?
(Cries of no, no.)
Mr. BOLTON said, Mr. Alderman Earle had proposed the
first list, which he, (Mr. Bolton,) seconded. He did not,
however, care what names were upon the list, but he did
contend that each name must be proposed and seconded
separately. Let Mr. Earle propose his name, and then Mr.
Sands might move his by the way of amendment.
Mr. SANDS—Very well : I am content.
The MAYOR said, that when Mr. Earle had moved one
name, Mr. Sands might move another as an amendment
Mr. HODGgON observed that amendments were always put
the first frod the chair. Mr. Sands had moved one, and,
therefore, he was in possessidn of the chair. •
The MAYou. said this was perfectly understood.
Mr. Alderman EARLE asked by what authority the com-
mittee was reduced from 15 to 13? He begged leave to state

that 15 meta not too tnani'. Then were tw6'iiisbois to attend
to, and if the larger number were appointed, those who did
their duty, would find a great deal to do

The MAYOR said the nun

was the first point to be

decided.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES moved that the committee do consist
of thirteen.

Mr. SANDS seconded the motion.
Mr. BOLTON moved, as an amendment, that the committee
be constituted of 15, on the ground that as there were two
schools to be attended to, 13 would be insufficient.
Mr. PLATT seconded the amendment on the same grounds.

Mr. PRIESTLY had attended-the committee for some years,
and must say, that at times, it had been found very hard to
get a committee together. Fifteen was as few as there wel
could be, considering that they were divided into two sub-
committees.
Mr. SANDS had no objection to 15 being the number, but
it had been thought more convenient to have only 13. Mr.
Evans and Mr. Aiken thought 8 were sufficient. .

Mr. Alderman EvANs.—l have never given an opinion
upon the subject.
Mr. SANDS said a few words of explanation, which we were
unable to hear.
Mr. BOLTON then proposed, and Mr. Busuzu, seconded,
a motion that Mr. Sandbach be appointed on the committee.
Mr. SANDBACH said he was anxious to have an opportu-
nity of saying a few words on this subject on account of the
undue importance attached to what bad fallen, from him upoti
a former occasion, and the inferences drawn from it. it boa
been inferred from what lie said that there existed among the
conservative members of the council a difference of opinion
as to the principles upon which the schools were to be con-
ducted. He confessed that the idea flashed across his mind
at that time, that there was an intention of proposing some
measures so exclusive or so extreme that he could not ap-
prove of it, and he should feel bound to oppose it. He was
now, however, better informed, and he was happy to say
there was no intention of proposing any such measure, or any
measure in which he did not frankly and cordially concur,
and which he would not support by every means in his power.
He trusted that when the council heard what was intended
to be done, they would all see they had been entirely mis-
taken in supposing that any such extreme measures were in
contemplation. The two points which, as he understood,
were intended to be insisted upon, were points of principle—
The MAYOR was sorry to interrupt Mr. Sandbach, but he
had before said that the council could not now go into that
subject.
Mr. SANDBACH bowed to the decision of the chair, and
would not further trespass upon those points. At the
same time he must be allowed to say, that he did not re-
gret the course he had pursued, nor had he any apology to,
offer to the council for having taken the ground he bad
du c upon a former occasion. He admitted the propriety
of the combination of parties, for the sake of asserting and
maintaining great principles ; but he distinctly repudiated
the doctrine that individual opinion was not to be expressed.
He should not submit to be so under the iron control of party
as not to be at liberty to express an independent opinion;
but at the same time he claimed that liberty for himself he
acknowledged the obligation, and trusted, upon this occasion
especially, that every gentleman of the council wouid care.:
fully avoid any expression that could give needless offence,
especially to. the Roman Catholic part of the people. (Hear,
hear.) He confessed it was with him, and he knew it was
with many others also,—he thought lie might say, with the
town at large—an object of intense anxiety that the Homan
Catholic part of the population, in common with the rest,
should send their children, and give to them scriptural educe-
tion that was there offerei to them without—. He did
not wish to get into the subject ; he wished simply to sal
that he hoped every person would avoid every expression that
might give needless offence to the Roman Catholics, or tend
to prevent them from sending their children to the schools,
which he most earnestly desired they should do.
Mr. Sandbach's name was then carried, as were the names
of Mr. Edmund Molyneux, Mr. Alexander Smith, jun., Mr.
Chilton, Mr. R. S. Crook, Mr. Priestley, and Mr. It. Glad-
stone.

Mr. BRIGHT said, as it was professed by the gentlemen on
the opposite side that they meant to deal fairly and impar-
tially with the schools, he hoped they would carry out the
principle, and allow the committee to be constituted of 15
members. This would allow 7 of one party and 8 of the
other.

Mr. SANDS was surprised that such a remark or suggestion
should have been made. If the gentleman opposite would
go back to the proceedings of two years ago, he would find
that the members of the committee then proposed were all °'
one side. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY said that was hardly a fair ob-
servation upon the part of Mr. Sands. They were very
anxious on that occasion that some from the other side should
come into the committee, but they would not. (Hear.)
Mr. SANDS was much obliged to Mr. Barclay for putting
him right whenever he was wrong ; but he could tell him that
Mr. Blackburne, in a speech two years ago, stated that
The MAYOR called Mr. Sands to order. This subject
would not bear excitement.; and bye gone transactions need
not be referred to.

Mr. SANDS would avoid going into a discussion of that
subject, in obedience to the chair. He would go on with
moving the committee, and leave the committee itself to see
the working of the schools.
Mr. Bulley and Mr. Platt were then elected members of
the committee.

Mr. Alderman. BAACLAY said he should be very glad t 0
have Mr. Yates upon the committee. (Cries of " No, no.
Mr. G. H. Lawrence and Mr. Alderman Houghton were
then appointed members.

Mr.flodgson's name being next propoied,
Mr. BOLTON said he must oppose the nomination of Mr.
Hodgson. He was so strongly prejudiced against, and so
uncharitable towards, those who differed from him in religi-
ous opinions, and particularly towards the Roman Catholics,
that in his (Mr. Bolton's) opinion—and he expressed it
boldly—he was a very unfit man to be put upon the educa-
tion committee.

Mr. Alderman EARLE begged to second Mr. Bolton, if be
proposed some other gentleman • he did not care who it was.
Mr. BOLTON proposed that dr. R. V. Yates be appointed
in place of Mr. Hodgson.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I second it.
Mr. HODGSON said if the amendment had been proposed
without comment he should not have said one word; but
when a personal attack was made upon him he must be 'al-
lowed to state very briefly what were his sentiments
subject. on this

The MAYOR. said that this was not a time tu`discu" the
principles upon which the education committee should' pro-
ceed. (Cries of " Vote !")
_ _

Mr. fIODGSON said if the mayor decided that he was out
of order, he should sit down ; otherwise he should not occu-
py three minutes with his explanations.
The MAYOR.—We are not now to enter upon that sub-
ject,

Mr. A. SMITH thought that as Mr. Hodgson had been at-
tacked, and he wished only to speak in explanation, he ought
to be heard. (Hear.)
Mr. HODGSON said Mr. Sandbach had been allowed to
speak in explanation, and he thought the same privilege
ought to be extended to him. These, then, were his senti-
ments—" Resolved that the education committee is hereby
instructed that only children of the Church of England be
required to learn the church catechism"—

The MAYOR was very sorry to interrupt Mr. Hodgson,
but the council had before decided that they ought not now
enter upon the mode upon which education in the schools
should be conducted. Mr. Hodgson, however, might give
any general explanation with regard to Mr. Bolton's motion•

Alderm:an EARLE.—If yon had allowed Mr. Hodg-
son to have his own way he would have shown you speedily
how disqualified he is to be on the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGSON.—I merely wish to say—

Several members.—(Chair, chair.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Go on ; go on.
The MAYOR thought Mr. Hodgson was not authorized to
enter upon the subject of education.

Mr. 'HODGSON said he merely asked to dear his character.
The MAYOR said that in doing so he was not entitled to
enter upon the general question, as it had been decided that
that should not be now discussed.

Mr. Alderman HARATF;—;;ifFkr. Hodgson might move
the resolution which he had read as an instruction to the
committee.