The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1847-03-30 00:00:00

LOCAL MEETINGS.

THE GUARDIAN GAS BILL—MEETING OF THE COUNCIL.
On Tuesday a special meeting of the Town Council was
held in the Town Hall, for • the purpose of taking into
consideration the merits of the two gas bills now before
parliament for lighting the borough of Liverpool.
At 12 o'clock his Worship the MAron.took the Chair,
when he stated that they were met to take into considera-
tion the Bills for a supply of Gas for the Borough of Li-
verpool, on which the committee for lighting the town
had prepared a report. But before entering upon
this subject he would read a letter which he had re-
ceivM from the Guardian Gas Company. And even
before that lettel was read he would allude to another
topic. It was well-known to the Council that many of its
members held shares in one or other of these companies ;
and they were also aware, that, according to the Munici-
pal Act, such members were prohibited from taking any
part in any debate, or voting, in the Council, on any mo-
tion relative to these companies. He was himself in the
situation of most of them : he held shares in one of the
companies himself ; but he felt that, having a due respect
for the office which he held, it would be most desirable
that this very proper position of the act should net be in-
fringed. He would now call upon the Town-clerk to read.
the memorial which had been received from the Guardian
Gas Company.
Mr. H. H.ORNBY wished to ask.the Town-clerk if there
was not a section of the Municipal Act which excepted
gas and water bills from this restriction ?
The TOWN-CLERK replied, that the 28th section of the
act did make many exceptions, but neither gas nor water
was included. He then read both the sections of the
act ; when
Mr. COOPER said he wished-to ask whether any person
who was a consumer of gas was not, directly or indirectly,
interested in this matter. (Laughter.) He contended
that every gentleman in that room, who consumed gas,
was either directly or indirectly interested in this business.
(" Oh, oh," and No.")
The MAYOR.—After all, this must be left to gentle-
men's consciences.
Petitions in favour of the-Guardian Gas Company were.
then handed in from the different wards of the town.
These petitions contain the names, trades or professions,
and residences of the subscribers, being inhabitant house-
holders, ratepayers, and occupiers of premises within the
borough. The following list shews the number of signa-
tures to each petition, all of which, it was stated, had
been obtained within the last three days :
Ward.
1. Everton and Kirkdale
2. Scotland
3. Vauxhall
4. St. Paul's
•
5. 'Exchange
6. Castle-street
7. St. Peter's
8. Pitt-street
9 Great George-street
10. Rodney-street
11. Abercromby
12. Lime-street ..
13. St. Anne's....
14. West Derby ..
15. South Toxteth
16. North Toxteth

Signatures.
. . 379
.. 356
. . 254
. . 290
.. 324
. . 250
• 284
. . 408
. 239
.. 311
.. 220
.. 346
.. 296
.. 196
.. 165
.. 387

Mr. RATHBONE, in handing in the petition from the
Vauxhall Ward, asked leave to say a few words previous to
his leaving to attend his business on the Grand Jury.
He said that he had been requested to hand in the peti-
tion which was now before them, and also to support its
prayer. This he had great pleasure in doing. He would
state, that formerly he held 25 shares in this company,
but he had paid them off and disposed of them. From
that time to the present he had had nothing more to do
with the shares of the company. He believed that the
public had been very much benefitted by the Guardian
Gas Company. (Hear, hear.) He said on a former
occasion, that he was somewhat behind the scenes.
He was ehind the scenes, and he knew that the hill of
that company was thrown out because of, the agreement
which was made between the two existing companies to
amalgamate, and to give the public the benefit of the
premiums. The Guardian Gas Company had been, taxed
with having violated their share of that agreement.
That, he (Mr. Rathbone) thought, was an impos-
sibility ; for the Guardian Gas Company never had
been .a party to that part of the agreement. It was
impossible that there could be any violation of a bargain
which never had an existence. Under these circum-
stances he felt that it was merely a ruse de guerre on the
part of the companies to make such a statement and one
which the Council should not submit to. If they
had bamboozled the Committee of the Guardian Com-
pany, they should not attempt to bamboozle the Council.
There were many of the gentlemen present, who, like
himself, had the honour of being Magistrates, whose duty
it was to enforce the payment of the taxes of the Borough.
He said they would not have the hearts of Christian men
if they did not feel for the poor of Liverpool,. who were
already so severely taxed. He felt that they. would not
have the heartS of men if they did not do. all in their
power to lessen those taxes. Under these circumstances
he Would do all in his power to support the Guardian Gas
Company.
The TOWN-CLERK then read the clauses in the Dale-
street Company's act, which empowered them to raise
their capital.
Mr. HODGSON wished to know the amount of capital
to be raised by the Company, independent of all contin-
gencies ?
The TOWN-CLERK : £lOO,OOO. That is for 'the Old
Company.
Mr. HODGSON.—And how much did the Guardian Gas
Company propose to raise ?
The TOWN-CLERK.—AIso £lOO,OOO.
Mr. Nicol. thought there was still a question before
the chair, which he did not understand. What they de-
clared that they produced on the first shares, with all the
premiums, has been expended.
Mr. AIKIN said, that, if he understood the question
rightly, the proprietors would have the benefit of all the
premiums on the new shares.
The MAYOR.—No : only the half of it.
Mr. AlKlN.—lndependent of contingencies, they would
have an advantage on the second issue. And it is quite
clear that they will have the full benefit of the first.
Mr. H. HORNBY stated, that raising the first £50,000
would not benefit the present proprietors in the least, as
all the benefits arising from it would go to the public.
Indeed lie might consider the public as part proprietors
themselves. At least they were very much interested in
the welfare of the company, for when the profits of the
company rose above 10 per cent., then they received the
benefit in the reduction in price of gas. It appeared to
him that the recommendation of the committee was ex-
tremely sound and proper, and lie thought it was the duty
of the Council to support them in their decision on the
matter. •
TOWN-CLERK.—But there are some differences between
the Company and the Council which may alter the pre-
sent arrangement. The Committee say that the whole of
the shares of the Company should be sold by auction ;_ to
that proposition the Company do not seem inclined to
agree.
The MAYOR.—But in that part of the proceedings the
New Company have no interest.
The TOWN-CLERK then read a -number of clauses of
the form of agreement which had been laid by the com-
mittee before both the companies, and also the proprietors,
put in by both, where. they happened to disagree with the
terms proposed by the committee.
Mr. PARKER contended that, in the event of this agree-
ment being adopted by the proprietors, it was only a pre-
liminary step, as the committee had not, in his opinion,
the power to come to any final decision on the subject.
That could only be done by the Council.
The TOWN-CLERK then read the report of the Lighting
and Health Committee, which recommended the two
existing companies to amalgamate, and, in the event of
their doing so, it recommended the Council to support
them in getting a bill through parliament, to enable them
to supply the wants of the town with efficiency ; and also,
in the event of their doing so, it recommended the Coun-
cil to oppose the bill of the Guardian Gas Company.
And also the following" retter from the Guardian Gas
Company :

TO THE WORSHIPFUL TGiu:d.:22r1 dlarcli,
Aa OGRa.c.'
F LIVEItcOOL.
SIR,--T am directed by the
Managing 1847
of the
Guardian Gas Company to make the ' communication
to you, and, on their behalf, respectfully to request that you
will be pleased to make its contents known to the Council of
the Borough, at the meeting convened for Tuesday, the and
instant) which it is understood is called for the purpose of de-
termining as to the course the Corporation should pursue with
respect to the Guardian Gas Company's Bill, now before Par-
liament.
The Guardian Gas Company understand that a Sub-Com-
mittee of the Council, consisting of four gentlemen, were ap-
pointed to examine and report as to the merits of their. Bill ;
and they are further informed, that the report of the Sub-Com-
mittee is in favour of an amalgamation of the Liverpool Gas-
light Company with the New Gas and Coke Company. Should
this amalgamation be arranged, then the Corporation are re-
commended by the Sub-Committee to support the existiul
companies in Parliament ; if otherwise, to support the Guardian
Gas Company's Bill.
I am directed to state, that in any understanding your Sub-
Committee may have had with the existing companies, no con-
sideration has been shown to the interests or motives of the
Guardian Gas Company, who consider themselves as repre-
senting a large majority of the gas consumers of Liverpool,
your Sub-Committee not having requested any interview or
communication with them, after the explanation given of the
objects of the said Company and the advantages to be derived
by the community therefrom.
The Guardian Gas Company conceive that they have now
much stronger grounds to protest against such amalgamation
than they had in 1845.
Ist,—The greatly increased consumption within the last two
years, mainly consequent on the reduction of price to 4s. Gd.
per thou Sand cubic feet, which reduction was forced upon the
existing companies by the Committee of the House of Com-
mons.
2ndly,—The necessity for a further investment of Capital,
which is proved by the present application of the Liverpool Gas-
light Company to Parliament, for power to raise 4'200,000 ad-
ditional capital.
3rdly,--Tine increase in the population of the borough, and
the consequent increase in the consumption of .gas, it having
been proved by Mr. King, the engineer to the Liverpool Gas-
light Company, before the Commissioners of Inquiry, that the
consumption of gas would be doubled in 41 years, and trebled
in 7 years from the presentperiod.
4t6ly,—The inexpediency and injustice of placing in the
hands of an individual company, the monopoly and supply of
gas in a great and rapidly increasing town like Liverpool.
The Guardian Gas Company. have read the report of the
Commissioners appointed to investigate the merits of the
Guardian Gas, and Liverpool Gas-light Companies Bills; it is
perhaps unnecessary to state in Liverpool that the evidence
with respect to the Guardian Gas Company's Bill, was given
before Mr. Lowe only, Mr. Eilison, the other Commissiour:r
being from illness unable to attend.
The Report appears to be of a decided party character., not-
withstanding the concluding recommendation to ainalg-amate
the three companies at a7l per cent. dividend. With 'respect
to the price of Gas, the supply of country districts, wad other
matters referred to in the Report, the Guardian Gas `Company
will be prepared to support the position they have taY.en, before
a Committee of the House of Commons,
With reference to the alleged iuconvenieuce to WAse from the.

7A .L __l _

raising of the streets by the Guardian - Gas Company, I beg
permission to draw attention to a passage in the report of the
government commissioners, (2d paragraph, folio 17,) which
shows that the streets must be raised to meet the increased de-
mand for gas, and that the objection on_ that ground, if of any
real weight, (which may be doubted, the inconvenience being
but temporary, while the advantage would be permanent,) will
apply no more to the Guardian Gas Company than to the ex-
isting companies. "Mr. King expressly states, that a large
portion within the municipal boundaries is not yet lighted, and
that more mains are to be laid within the municipal bounda-
ries than there have been at present laid, and that the present
company has at present altered.a portion of its mains by sub-
stituting large for small ones; and that no part of the present
capital applied for is required to enable the company to carry
that substitution still further, and that, therefore, the applica-
tion made by the Guardian Gas Company to allowed to com-
pete with the existing companies is not without some show of
reason." •
I have further to remark that the Guardian Gas Company, at
the last Parliamentary 'contest, expended a large sum in their
endeavours to obtain an act of incorporation, which sum was
lost to the shareholders, and principally among the Gas Con-
sumers of Liverpool; they are now engaged in a similer con-
test, which may involve an equal expenditure, and they there-
fore feel that they have a strong claim on the Council for their
active support and cooperation to enable them to obtain their
Bill

I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your Worship's most obedient servant,
J. M. MACDONALD,
Secretary to the Guardian Gas Company.
Mr. TURNER rose to propose the adoption of the re-
port. Since that report was adopted they had had another
interview with the two companies, and, he was happy to
state, that they had both agreed to the proposed amalga-
mation. He held in his hand the basis of the agreement
for that amalgamation. He did not think it necessary to
say more than to ask the Town-clerk. to read this docu-
ment.
Mr. Busuny seconded the adoption of the report, and
expressed his hearty concurrence in the recommendations
which it contained.
Mr. PARKER wished to know, if the borough was to be
put to the expense attending this matter. He wished to
know if the already heavily-taxed burgesses of Liverpool,
were to be taxed for the support.of the private specula-
tions of a private company, which was toreap the benefits
of the speculation ? And he wanted to know if the
Council was to be bound to oppose the Guardian Gas bill
if they agreed to this amalgamation, and at whose expense
that opposition was to be carried on.
TOWN-CLERK.—The Council, in the event of this
amalgamation taking place, must oppose the Guardian
Gas Bill.
Mr. PARKER.—And at whose expense.?
TOWN-CLERIC.—At the expense of the. Council.
Mr. PARKER did not think that the adoption of such
a course would be at all advisable,—nor would it be wise
or just to either the Guardian Gas Company, from whom
the public had received sucfi benefits, nor to the public.
d
to
hgeoGuardianparliament
nCioe
n. a; dbtuhte 'ti red
u lda
ays—k twhheeyrwe ewr
ae
sp rt
the
eari
ll
of the Old Company ? They had no hill, they were only
seeking for help to get one. And. they-had lost this ses-
sion—they had allowed the time to. pass over when they
might, if they were inclined, have been conferring a benefit
on the public. And he would tell gentlemen in that
Council that, however the gas interest might predominate
in it, they should put that in abeyance, and think only of
the interest and the welfare of their constituents—the
public at large.
After some conversation as to whether there were a suf-
ficient number of members present, independent of those
who were prohibited from taking a part in the proceedings,
to constitute a Council,
Mr. HIGGINS rose to propose the annexed amend-
ment :—" That the report be not adopted. That the
Council approve of the principle of the Guardian Gas
Company, and that it be referred to the Lighting and
Health Committee to support that bill in parliament,
subject to such modifications of the details as may be
necessary for the protection of the public." . He was
going to make an observation or two on the subject then
under the consideration of the Council ; but if they had
not as many members present as would constitute a
Council, it would be useless for him to do so.
The MAyon.—Go on, Mr. Higgins.
Mr. HoncsoN.—Before you proceed further, it would
be well to ascertain if we have a Council.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—And• if we have not, what
are we to do ?
TowN-CLERK.—If not, we cannot go on.
Mr. HIGGINS.—IIinv many does it require to form a
Council ?
Mr. BRAItILEY-MOORE.—Twenty-two.
The MAYOR.—Oh ! gentlemen, will you allow Mr.
Higgins to go on.
Mr. HIGGINS proceeded to state, that before entering
upon the subject, he should like any member in the council
who was interested in these gas companies to stand up, in
order that they might see whether in reality they had a
Council.
The gentlemen so circumstanced then stood up, when
there appeared to be many more than the requisite num-
ber for a Council, independent of them.
Mr. HIGGINS would then move his amendment, and.
he did so on the rounds that to support the present
companies at the expense of the public, was to support
and perpetuate, with the public money, a monopoly which
was injurious to the public ; .and which had been allowed
to exist too long in this town. He did not mean to
say that the gentlemen who were proprietors in
these companies would do anything that was not strictly
within the terms of their agreement with the public, and,
therefore, strictly right ; but still he looked upon. the
matter as one of human nature ; for when men united, for
their own interest, their own interest they would support
above all considerations for any person else. He. thought
they would be departing from the true performance oithe
duties which they owed to the public if they adopted the
course recommended in the report. They had heard the
expression that day, of the public mind on this sub-
ject, they had heard that mind through the sixteen
memorials from the sixteen wards of the town ; and those
memorials—all of them—prayed that the public might
have the benefit of cheap light, and that the present mo-
nopoly. should be put an end to. If they attended
to and granted the prayer of those petitions, they would
not only effect a saying to the public, but they would in-
crease their surplus fund, which stood very much in need
of an auginentation. The only objection which had been.
made to the bill of the Guardian Company was on the
ground of its being calculated to break up and injure. the
streets. That, however, had been answered by the com-
. pany. They say that if the present company increase
their works to meet the demands of the town, they must
lay down new and larger mains than are at present in the
streets ; and they contend, that if the Council gives that pri-
vilege to one company, they ought not to refuse it
to another, as in either case one laying down of mains
must take place. And if the Council accepted the propo-
sition of the Guardian Gas Bill, it would have the power
and the privilege of selecting the most fitting occasions for
disturbing the streets. On these grounds-. he moved his
amendment, and he was prepared to oppose the adoption
of the report.
Some conversation again took place as to whether there

was a, Council present.
It was suggested by Mr. HODGSON that those who were
precluded from taking a part in the business should sit at
the one side of the Council-chamber.
Mr. COOPER thought that he had every right, as a
member of that Council, to. remain in his place, and
listen to a great deal of nonsense, if it pleased him to do
so. (Laughter.)
Mr. Ric caNs only hoped that he (Mr. Cooper) would
utter no more nonsense. (Laughter.) He trusted the
Council would consider the welfare of the town, and the
interests of the inhabitants generally., and, seeing that
two companies could not supply the town with gas—that
they would support the Guardian Gas Company, and
thereby demonstrate to their constituants that their in-
terests were paramount with them..
Mr. BOYDEN felt the utmost gratification in seconding
the amendment of his friend Mr. Higgins.
After a few words from Alderman, BUSUBV,
Mr. BENNETT, as a member of the committee, begged
leave to make a few observations regarding the circum-
stances which induced the committee to come to the
conclusions which they had arrived at, as contained in
the report just read by the Town-clerk. At an interview
which they. had at first, with the Guardian Gas Company,
he thought that the committee were rather dissatisfied
with the report of their engineer, Mr. Cox ; and it was
owing to the unsatisfactory state of the estimates which
he presented, and also because they did not believe it
possible for the company to make good gas and sell it at
the proposed price, which in a great measure induced
them to come to their present determination. (Hear.)
They were also influenced a good deal by the report of the
local surveyors who had been. sent down from the Woods-
'
and Forests to report upon the subject. That report was•.
most unfavourable for the Guardian Company ; and in
order that the Council might understand the nature of
that report, he would request the Town-clerk to read
some portion of it.
The TOWN-CLERK then read several extracts from this
report, which went to spew that it was impossible for:tlae
Guardian Gas . Company to succeed under any citeuin-
stances.
Mr. BENNETT, in continuation, stated that Mr.. Cox
had left out in his estimates many items which ,should
have been taken into account, when he proposed: giving
gas at 3s. Bd. per 1000 cubic feet.
Mr. HIGGINs.:—What amount per 1000 fed-. has
.he
left out ?
Mr. BENNETT.—Ficepence halfpenny.
Mr. HIGGINs.—What dividend does he calen.late for ?
Mr. BENNETT.—Seven-and-a-half per cent.
Mr. thoGlNs.—And how much do the others receive ?
Mr. BENNETT:—Ten per cent.
Mr. PARKER rose with regret to oppose his . colleague,.
(Mr. Bennett.) He was glad that he had come out ol-
this occasion, for he was certain that the-town would find
him a really. practical man, and one who, would do much
to advance the interests of the people at large. But still,
he (Mr. Parker) must say that he was.but young in these
matters—he had not had sufficient .experience in making
arrangements of this kind—(laughter)—and he believed
that his good nature had in a great measure led him to
support the committee with which he was connected be-
cause lie was connected with it. They had heard a great
deal about the unanimity, the amiability, and the cor-
diality of the two companies ; but in his opinion
they were as different as oil and water, said but one whit
twerp likely to agree. (Hear, hear.) What guarantee
had they offered that they would amalgamate ? Had they
offered any ? They had no one's word pledged that it
would be done if even the Council were to accede to their
wishes. (Hear, hear.) They had to be sure the
word of the directors ; but would the proprietors agree
to it ? He thought not. Mr. King said he would make
gas and sell it to them at a lower rate than it could be
produced for. That was not the proposition of Mr. Cox.
No : his was a more reasonable one, for he only
professes to give it at a small figure higher than he
can make it for. He is not so magnanimous. He (Mr.,
P.) did not understand the system. Ile had heard of buying
and selling linen at less than it cost ; but these gas cam-
panics beat all such linen merchants he had evex hard of
in the marvellous. (Laughter.) Besides, he laglieved that
they did not stand there as the advocates eA any coma any ;