The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-09-10 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS,

• On We,lnesday a special meeting of the town council was
held, for the despatch of business, in the Town-hall. The
Mayor presided.

FINANCE COMMITTEF

The proceedings of the above-named committee embodied
a minute of an offer of land made to Messrs. Holme, in ex-
ception of the general rule to offer first by public-auction.
Mr. Sti ELL recalled attention to what had formerly been
said in the council touching the sale of land to individuals,
and to the rule which had been laid down for the government
of all future sales. He could not conceive anything more
objectionable than fora jmblic body, like the council, to sell
land to particular individuals. It was not only undesirable,
but it was a deviation from a line of conduct which ought to
be pursued : for the public ought to have an opportunity of
fairly competing with each other, and of fairly establishing
the value. Such a proceeding as that proposed ought to be
avoided, if possible, and unless something very strong in sup-
port of it could be advanced, and, he must say, it ought to
be something very strong indeed, he should strenuously op-
pose it, and divide the council upon it.
Mr. SHUTTLRWORTH, deputy town-clerk, at the sugges-
tion of the MAYOR, read the resolution, that in all cases land
should be put up to auction, unless some special reasons
should render a contrary course expedient.
Mr. CASK said the special reason which had guided the
finance committee in the present instance was, that the price
offered was considered a full price, and, as the land was a
large piece, it was deemed good policy to sell it entire, at a
good price. They had had instances in which the full price
of land could not be obtained at auction, and the consequence
was that such land was now. down in the market. Consider..
ing, therefore, that the price offered for the land in question
was ample, and that it was wanted as a whole, they had come
to the conclusion that it was proper to recommend the sale.
The subject was therefore brought before the council : the
sale had not been made, but was subject to the approval or
disapproval of the council.

Mr. HARBOR)) thought it was detrimental to the corporate
estate to offer land by auction. It was better to offer it by
advertisement, and take tenders. Mr. Harbord mentioned
an instance of an individual, who, wishing to become the pur-
chaser of a piece of land, bought the only competitor out of
the market by a payment of two or three hundred pounds.
Mr. SHELL said, he had not heard any explanation sufli•
cient to warrant the deviation. It did not appear that this
land had been advertised. They were told that this was the
full value. He did not doubt that. He did not believe the
Finance Committee would sell the land for less than what
was deemed its full value, but they could not tell what num-
ber of persons in Liverpool might have fixed their eyes upon
this land as desirable ; they could not tell how many would
have been inclined to purchase it, if the intention of selling
it had been made public. He would move that the proceed-
ings of the Finance Committee be confirmed, with the cx•
ceetion of that part which related to•this land. _ _

Mr.Mr.Acur;traN seconded the motion. The only safe
course for the council to pursue, was to avoid any appear-
ance which might raise the imputation or suspicion of fa-
vourit►sm.

Mr. ROBINSON said, he believed no individual in the
council knew where the land was.

Mr. CASE said it was at the south-east corner of the Salt-
house Dock. Messrs. Holmes were not negotiating the
purchase for themselves, but for some friends in the coun-
try ; therefore it was impossible there could be any favour-
itism in the case.

Mr. SHELL and Mr. BLACKBURN both disclaimed any in-
tention of imputing to the Finance Committee that they had
been guided by favouritism.
Mr. MELLOR said he did not agree with Mr. Harbord's
proposition : he did not like tenders. The Watch Commit-
tee had received tenders for the cast-off clothing of the po-
lice, and they had reason to suspect very great collusion.
Mr. JOHN HOLMES and the MAYOR expressed their ap-
proval of the proposed rule.
Mr. COOPER agreed with Mr. Shell. He thought the most
proper way to dispose of the public land was by auction.
Mr. HARBORD said, he was informed that the offer for
the land was £5 per yard. Now he was convinced that,
whether sold thus or by auction, they could not get half the
value for it. By waiting till next year they would be ena-
bled to get just double the sum offered.

The Council, without dividing on the subject, here re-
solved, that the usual mode of sale by auction should be
resorted to in the present instance.

THE WEST INDIA PACKET STATION

Mr. SHELL begged to call the attention of the council to a
certain part of the proceedings of the Finance Committee,
which related to the West India Steam-packet station. An
audience of Mr. Cresswell had been obtained, while that
learned gentleman was lately in town, and he had recom-
mended a petition to be sent to the legislature, praying the
house to establish Liverpool as the most eligible port for the
despatch of the West India mails. It would be in the recol-
lection of the council that a committee of the House of
Commons had been appointed for the examination of wit-
nesses on the subject, and that they had issued a report. It
now, however, appeared that neither of the ports named as
the most eligible possessed any of the very great advantages
for which thy were said to be so distinguished. He (Mr.
S.) wished every member of the council would read the report.
It was beyond all doubt the most amusing production which
had ever made its appearance. In'the first place, two great
naval men from Dartmouth were examined. One of them
said it was a " blind" port (a phrase well understood by nau-
tical men) and that.no steam-boat could go in without run-
ning the risk of getting on shore by reason of bad steerage or
being caught by the tide. This had been maintained as a
positive fact by other of the witnesses ; while the next man,
a man of considerable experience, said that no one in his
senses would call Dartmouth a " blind" port—(a laugh)—
that the water was deep, and that it possessed every good
quality which could possibly be expected. This was the sort
of evidence on which a conclusion as to the eligibility of
Dartmouth had to be arrived at. A number of witnesses
were then examined with regard to Falmouth, one of whom
said it was the finest port in the world, and that the fleet had
anchored there. The harbour master of Plymouth was then
examined, and he said that Falmouth was a port not by any
means affording sufficient room, and that the fleet had never
anchored there ; but they were all agreed in opinion that it
would be necessary to make a. basin in Falmouth for the
West India packets. It had occurred within the last three
weeks that the Liverpool letters were not delivered for
twenty-four hours after the mails had arrived at Falmouth.
A despatch had, indeed, been received at the newsrooms
previously, containing all the news brought by the packet to
Falmouth ; but the merchants in Liverpool did not get their
letters until the following morning. There were two mails
from Falmouth. One took the letters to London, but did
not take the country letters ; therefore .the letters for Bir-
mingham and Bristol were not delivered until the morning
after the arrival of the packet, and the letters for Liverpool
were not delivered for some hours after ; and this was one
objection to both Dartmouth and Falmouth as packet sta-
tions. The next proposal was to make Southampton the
port; but there was an objection to Southampton also; for
if the letters arrived there at any hour after four o'clock on
Saturday, they would have to go to London, and would not
be despatched to Liverpool until the Monday following. To
be sure, it was not, perhaps, of very great importance
whether the merchants of Liverpool received their letters on
Monday or on Tuesday, but it was of essential importance
that they should receive them as soon as the merchants of
Bristol and other places. (Hear.) The subject had been
taken into consideration by the inhabitants of the city of
Glasgow, and they petitioned' in favour of Liverpool as the
packet station ; and the fact was, that if the West India
packets were to come to Liverpool, letters could be delivered
throughout the country in a much less time than it was pos-
sible they could be delivered from any other port in England.
With regard to this subject, there was another great point,
in the importance and desirableness of which the council
would concur—namely, the having an opportunity of answer-
ing the letters received. If the mail from the West Indies
arrived forty-eight hours before the packet going out, there
was no important town in the empire that would not have an
opportunity of answeriug the letters received, if government
were induced to make Liverpool the packet station. (Hear.)
He might be told that there existed a contract at present,
but no contract should stand in the way of an arrangement
which would afford the great advantages of a speedy delivery
and quick despatch. He believed it was in contemplation
that all the letters, from every part of the West Indies and
South America, from Vera Cruz to Panama, would ultimately
be sent to Europe through the medium of those mails; and,
therefore, the council could scarcely contemplate the great
advantages which might ensue to the interests of the country
were Liverpool made the station. He had made these re-
marks for the purpose of calling the attention of the council
to the matter, and also with the view of letting the public see
the necessity which existed for having the mails despatched
from and received at the port of Liverpool.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought the remarks which had just fallen
from Mr. Sheil well worthy of the attention of the council.
He (Mr. Gladstone) should like to ask whether. the contrac-
tors had control of the vessels being despatched from one
port or another, or whether it rested with the government ?
He was afraid that in the settlement of this question Liver-
pool would have to contend with a great degree of jealousy
and partiality in favour of other places, for it was rather a
curious circumstance that of sixteen vessels ordered to be
built for the purpose, every one of them was called after rivers
in the United Kingdom, some of which were of the most
trivial and unimportant description, whilst the name of the
Mersey had not been given to any one of them. He believed
too that with the exception of Captain Fayrer, who indeed
could scarcely be called a Liverpool captain, there was not a
single captain appointed in any way connected with Liver-
pool, though more than one had made application to get the
command of some of these vessels, supported by the strong-
est testimonials. He mentioned these circumstances to show
the difficulty the council would have to contend with in this
matter. _

Mr. CASE said the vessels belonged to a company in Lon-
don, who had entered into a contract with the government to
take up the mails at such port in the channel as the govern-
ment might decide on. The government had decided on
Dartmouth. The voyage was to commence at Southampton;
for at that port passengers were to be taken on board. On
the return voyage the vessels were to call at Dartmouth, land
the mails, and then proceed to Southampton with the pas-
sengers. The consequence of this state of things would be,
that as Dartmouth was one hundred miles from Southamp-
ton, and as there was no railway along the line, the distance
would have to be performed by coaches, and the passengers
would reach London before the arrival of the mails. The
evidence before the committee of the House of Commons
was very cohtradictory ; bat there was one thing in which
all agreed, namely, that if the vessels were to arrive at Liver-
pool, letters could be forwarded with greater rapidity than if
they were to arrive at any other port, and that Liverpool was
the best port from which to forward correspondence. The
committee had therefore come to the resolution that they
could not recommend Dartmouth, and that they did recom-
mend the packets to go from Falmouth until some other
place was fixed on ; but they also recommended that a full
investigation be gone into in the next session of parliament
in order to determine on the best station.
Mr. SHELL moved that the Finance Committees be in-
structed to forward a memorial to government on the sub-
ject, praying, in the first place, that no expense be incurred
in the present state of the case, and that the attention of
government might be dire..lted to Liverpool. The fact of the
number of steam-boats which came to and went out of Liver-
pool was a sufficientanswer to all that might be said against
the port. The Halifax boats were in the habit of coming
a number of boats also wont
and going without any delay ;
and therefore Liverpool had to Scotland and Ireland ;
ac-
commodation which could not be obtained elsewhere. Liver-
pool had docks also; the West India packets could be built
and repaired on the spot ; every advantage was at hand ; and
he defied any man to bring forward any reasonable objection
to the port.
Mr. GLADSTONE seconded the motion proposed by Mr.
Sheil, and it was unanimously adopted.
Mr. JORDAN asked wether there was to be a deputation
sent to London, of whether the memorial was to be trans-
mitted ?
The MAYOR said the committee had full power given them
to act in that respect as they might consider most advisable.
The proceedings of the Finance Committee, with the ex-
ception of the sale of land to Messrs. Holme, were then
confirmed. The cases, and the proceedings Of the Improve-
ment, Watch, Markets, and Town Hall Establishment Com-
mittees, were then read and confirmed.

THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Education Committee, comprising
the appointment of Mary Anne Boyce to the situation of
second mistress to the South School, at the salary of £6O
per annum, having been read, '
Mr. FHEME inquired whether any or what steps had been
taken towards carrying out the recommendation of the com-
mittee with regard to the erection of two additional schools
as ordered by the council some time ago?
Mr. EARL replied—No steps had been taken, and he iSre-
seined they could not, with any degree of propriety, be taken
in the present state of the corporate funds.

Mr. ITAnnono begged to ask the reason why the time of
the schoolmasters had been taken up in teaching the children
Latin ? It might be that the Roman catholic• children required
it more than the protestants, as a part of the service of their
church was performed in that tongue; but if it were thought
• .

desirable to have Latin taught int-lie,'seicOols:lie:Would say,
ir there were any Israelites there that they ought to be taught
Hebrew.

The MAYOR explained—The report read merely stated
that the apprentices of the head masters were being taught
Latin and not the children in the schools
Mr. M 'KEE thought the observation had merely been used
for the purpose of having another blow at the Roman catho-
lics. It appeared from the report that the masters taught
Latin to their apprentices gratuitously out of school hours,
and he did not see why they ought not to be taught a little
Latin as was well as everything else.
Mr. PARKER regretted to hear that some of the boys had
been dismissed in consequence of having attended some of
the silly processions which were recently going through the
town. He complained of there not being a report of the
South School beford the council, and stated that there was
an uncouth apprentice there of violent temper. He also
stated that there was a marked contrast between the beha-,
viour of the boys in the South School and those in the
North.

Mr. PRIESTLEY, as one of the committee of the North
School, stated that the, children who had been dismissed for
attending the processions were in course of re-admission to
the school. Fifty-three had been re-admitted on Monday,
and the remainder of them would also be re-admitted.
Mr. WICEE asked the name of the unruly boy in the
South School?

Mr. PARKER knew it not, but, by his dialect, be believed
him to be descended from I rish parents.
Mr. YATIn said it would be unfortunate if it went forth to
the public that the boys in the South School were unruly.
He attended there every week, and thought their conduct
generally very correct.

Mr. ISAAC HOIAIRS said the present was the first occa-
sion upon which he had been informed that apprentices were
taken into the school for the purpose of being taught.. He
wished to know when these apprentices were originally taken.
The MAYOR read the resolution adopted by the council in
January, 1840, which contained the form of binding appren-
tices as assistant teachers, and said that the resolution had
been acted upon for the last twenty months.
Mr. MICLIOR asked why the two schools had not been
erected, in pursuance of the orders given a long time back ?
The MAYOR believed it was owing to a want of funds.

Mr. JORDAN said the St. Patrick's School was dwindling
away from a want of funds also, and it might pass into the
hands of the corporation for a trifling consideration.
Mr. EARLE said the corporation were some time since de-
sirous of having the St. Patrick's School handed over to
them, but found it impossible. If it were handed over, even
now, perhaps something might be done with it.
Mr. JORDAN said it bad cost £l4OO, and could not be
handed over without a quid pro quo.
Mr. linocron asked whether there was not a resolution on
the books authorising the erection of a school in every ward
in the town ?
The. MAYOR believed there was.

Mr. ISAAC HOLMES said it was quite impossible to build
the schools as the corporation had no surplus funds for as

to some of their purchases, he had reason to know that they
had put the sellers of the Birkenhead property to much in-
convenience. It was perfectly ridiculous to talk of building
under such circumstances.

Mr. CASE said it was true that money was difficult to be
raised. The council had ordered the Finance Committee to
go to a large expense i►► various ways which they had not the
means of providing for all at once, but the corporation estate
was as good as ever it was. With regard to the purchase of
Birkenhead, the money which the corporation had contracted
to pay had been paid. If gentlemen would not be so ex-
tremely impatient, at the next council, or the next but one.
they would have the state of the corporation finances fully
before them, and they would then be able to judge how un-
wise it was to bring these matters forward, and press the Fi-
nance Committee to do that which they could not do, unless
At considerable sacrifice to the corporation estate.
Mr. SLATER thought there could be no possible harm in
referring the subject to the 'Finance Committee, and that
whenever the funds of the corporation were in a more pros-
perous condition they should erect the two additional schools
in_preference to any other work.

The TOWN-CLERK said the payments On account of the
Birkenhead purchase had been delayed by difficulties as to
the title, which had first to be got over. Those difficulties
having been got over the money due had been paid.
Mr. CASE believed the difficulties were altogether on the
part of the sellers.
The MAYOR.—They could not satisfy the legal adviser of
the corporation as to their title.

The TOWN-CLERK.—They were such difficulties as always
occur in titles of complication.
It being then understood that the Education Committee
should confer with the Finance Committee on the subject of
their erection, the conversation dropped, and the proceedings
were confirmed.

CHURCH EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Church Expenditure Committee
were read and- confirmed. The committee recommended
that lightning conductors be attached to the spires of the
four corporation churches, and also to that of St. Thomas's.

Mr. CASE said the probable cost of repairing the damage
sustained by St. Michael's and St. Martin's Churches, by
the late thunder-storm, would amount to .£2,500.

Mr. ISAAC HOLMES complained of the inefficient light of
the clock at St. George's Church, and hoped the committee
would direct their attention to the subject.

COURTS OF LAW COMMITTEE-REMOVAL OF THE ASSIZES

TO MANCHESTER

The proceedings of the Courts of Law Committee were
read and confirmed. Amongst the proceedings appeared the
three folldwing memorials which were presented to the judges
at the lute assizes, in reference to the hearing of the Salford
Hundred list, and the removal of the assizes to Man-
chester :

To the Right Hon. the Lord DENMAN, Lord Chief Justice
of her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench, and the Hon.
Sir WILLIAM WIGHTMAN, Knight, one of the justices of
the same court, being the judges of Assize on the Nor-
thern Circuit, in the summer of the year 1841.
The memorial of the undersigned practising attorneys
of Liverpool, in the county of Lancaster.

.
Sheweth,--That your memorialists have been informed
that a number of the practising attorneys of Manchester
have presented a memorial or application to your lordships
for a change in the present arrangement and order in which
the causes entered in the West Derby list are tried at the
assizes ; an application which, if it were complied with,
would operate with great injustice and hardship upon the
suitors, jurors, witnesses, and attorneys connected with the
trial of causes entered in that list.

That your memorialists beg leave to impress upon your
lordships' attention that it is a most mistaken and fallacious
idea to imagine that persons residing in or near Liverpool are
the only persons who would be affected and injured by the
suggested change,. because the West Derby list embraces
causes, not merely from Liverpool, but from the towns of
Wigan, Warrington, Newton, Ormskirk, and other places
within the hundred of West Derby ; issues from the Court
of Chancery, and causes where the official residences of the
plaintiffs' attorneys, or of the plaintiffs themselves, if suing
in person, are in the metropolis and in other parts of England
and Wales, out of this county, and the present easy com-
munication by railways with Liverpool, has a direct ten-
tency to increase them all, which circumstances naturally
swell out the list of causes entered in that list, and assist to
give it a predonderance in number over the other list.
That there is another strong reason why more causes are
entered for trial on the West Derby list than in that of Sal-
ford, which is the fact, that it is not the population of any
district which determines the number of causes emanating
from thence, but the extent of commerce and the magnitude
and importance of their mercantile transactions; and as
Manchester is a manufacturing place, and not a seaport,
whilst Liverpool is a great mercantile town, the latter natu-
rally supplies a list of causes for the assizes, not only of
greater number, but of greater importance in point of
amount than Manchester. _

That it is not correct to attribute (as appears to be done in
the application from Manchester) the inferior number of
causes in the Salford list to the inconvenience or expense of
having to attend at Liverpool on the trial, because, even
prior to that period, when the assizes were held in Liverpool,
and in August, 1835, when they were first held here (and
before any such supposed inconvenience or expense of at-
tending at Liverpool could have been experienced) the num-
ber of causes entered in the West Derby list was greater
than that of Salford, as is shown in the following table :

1833. 1833. 1834. 1834. 1835. 1835.
Mar. Aug. Mar. Aug. Mar. Aug.
69 72 52 52 46 92
Salford I 41 I 49 I 43 144 I 33 I 53
That the distance from Manchester to Liverpool is, after
all, very little, and the communication by rail Way is very
frequent, and passengers often perform the distance in one
hour and a quarter, and no good reason occurs to your me-
morialists (supposing proper arrangements to be made) to
render it necessary to send witnesses in any cause from Man-
chester so early as to be detained many days at Liverpool.
That the important mercantile causes tried in the West
Derby list constantly require the attendance of masters,
mates, and other seafaring men as witnesses, and with the
facilities for leaving this country, which a seaport town like
Liverpool affords, it is a great advantage to have causes tried
early so as to obtain the benefit of their testimony, and to
avoid risking the loss of it by their going to sea.
That your memorialists have reason to believe that the
alacrity and zeal of Liverpool in promptly providing lodgings
for the judges, in fitting up a court-house adapted to the
trial of causes, and the arrangements then contemplated, and
now in progress, for erecting new and very commodious and
extensive courts, as well as the superior quiet and peace of
the town, had considerable effect in causing the assizes to be
held there, when put in contrast with the neglect of Man-
chester to offer good accommodations for the above purposes,
and with the confusion and turbulence which might be inci-
dent to its numerous manufacturing population.

West Derby

That the common law commissioners in their report, part
1, pages 51 and 52, recommended that the hundred of Sal-
ford should be annexed to, and form part of, a circuit with
Chester and some other places, and that separate assizes
should be held in Liverpool and in Manchester ; and your
memoria►ists do not offer any opinion upon the expediency
or otherwise of that plan, or of an adjournment of the assizes
from Liverpool to Manchester, for the trial of causes in the
Salford list, provided no inconvenience or delay shall be
thereby occasioned in the trial of causes in the West Derby
list, and the same remark will equally apply to the trial of
criminals at the assizes.

That, owing to the fatigue and weariness incidental to a long
assize, it is notorious that causes tried at the end of the list
are never tried so well or so satisfactorily to the suitors as
those in the earlier part of the assizes.
And your memorialists very respectfully beg leave to re-
present, that it would be unjust and oppressive to their cli-
ents and their witnesses, as well as to themselves, if the trial
of the causes in the Salford list were always to precede those
in the West Derby list ; and that as the latter are more nu-
merous, and certainly not less important, than the former,
it is only reasonable that each should enjoy the advantage of
precedence alternately.
Your memorialists respectfully, but urgently, solicit that
no alteration may be made in the rules of court of the August
assizes, 3d Geo. 4th, and of the September assizes, sth Geo.
4th, which will allow the causes in the Salford list to take
precedence, or to be tried (except as at present, at alternate
assizes) before all the causes in the West Derby list shall
have been tried or disposed of.

And your memorialists will ever pray.
•
[Here follow the signatures.]
To the Right Hon. the Lord DENMAN and the Hon. Sir
WILLIAM WIGHTMAN, Knight, the Judges of Assize in
the Northern Circuit, in the summer of 1841.
The humble memorial of the Liverpool Law Association,
Sheweth,—That your memorialists have had a communi-
cation from the Manchester Law Society, calling their atten-
tion to a memorial to your lordships from that association,
respecting the adjournment of the assizes from Liverpool to
Manchester, as regards the trial of causes from the Salford
hundred, and also respecting certain proposed regulations as
to the trial of causes in Liverpool.
That your memorialists have read, with much satisfaction,
a memorial on the same subject from the practising attorneys
of Liverpool, which has the general approval of this associa-
tion. . .

That, in addition to the grounds stated in that memorial
showing the injustice it would be always to place the West
Derby list last in the cause paper, your memorialists would
call the attention of your lordships to the great disadvantage
under which your memorialists and their clients already la=
hour, from the circumstance of the causes in the West Derby
list being tried last at every Spring Assizes, when the judges
have not the opportunity of remaining so long on the circuit
as at the Autumn Assizes, and great inconvenience results
from the causes in the West Derby hundred being tried at
the close of an assize when the time is o limited.

That your memorialists see tlO reason for disturbing the ar-
rangements for holding the assizes in Liverpool for the whole
of the southern division, which was made in the year one
thousand eight hundred and thirty-three, after the most grave
deliberation, which has been attended with the most bene-
ficial results. and in the faith of which many permanent and
important arrangements have been made in Liverpool and
elsewhere in the county.

That, with regard to the inconvenience complained of in
the Manchester memorial as to the Uncertainty of the day on
which the second list of causes shall commence, and which
affects also the West Derby list, your memorialists would re-
spectfully suggest that this inconvenience may be obviated
by a general rule, that the second list (whether the Salford
or West Derby) shall not be entered on earlier than a given
day, unless notice to the contrary be published.
That your memorialists concur with the Manchester attor-
neys in bearing testimony to the inconvenience attending the
present mode of appointing the trial of special jury causes in
the middle of the assizes, and would rejoice to see it obviated
by some other arrangement which would not interfere with
the trial of the common jury causes in either list.
To the right hon. the Loan CHIEF JUSTIOE and the bon.