The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-02-23 00:00:00

HOUSE OF. LORDS, THURSDAY..

The Earl of Warwick took his seat. Petitions were presented
by Lord Abinger in favour of ➢ir. Buckingham's claims, and
by Lord Dacre from some agriculturists in Kent against the
'tithe system.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS COMMITTEE.
Lord WTNFORD moved that " a select committee be ap-
pointed to inquire into the state of agriculture, and into the
causes of the distress which at present prevails in that important
branch of the Community, and to report thereon to the house."
The motion gave rise to some discussion, after which the com-
mittee was appointed.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY.
Colonel ANsoN took his seat for Stoke-upon-Trent.
IRISH TITHES.

Lord MORPETH gavenoticeiliat—on Friday, the 25th of
March, he would move that so much of his Majesty's speech
as related to the settlement of Irish tithes be taken into consi-
deration.

CONSTABULARY FORCE OF IRELAND.
Lord MoRPETH moved for and obtained leave to bring in a
bill for a►nending and consolidating the laws relating to the con-
stabulary force of Ireland.
RECORDS OF THE KINGDOM.

Mr. CHAR LES BULLER moved for a select committee to ex-
amine into the conduct of the commission appointed thirty odd
vears ago to inquire and report upon the state of the records of
the kingdom. The motion was agreed to and a committee
appointed.

LAY ASSOCIATION (IRULAND.)

Mr. SHELL called the attention of the house to the proceed-
ings of a society in Ireland calling itself " the lay association
for the protection of the property of the established church."
The society was in his opinion a branch of orangeism (Oh, oh!)
The first name at the head of the advertised list was the Earl of
Roden. The professed object of this association was the re-
covery of dues which he admitted to be perfectly legal—(cheers)
but he would ask the house whether the proceedings of that
body were such as might have been expected after Sir R. Peel
anti Sir H. Hardinge had declared that a great change ought tot e
Made in the present mode of levying tithes ? Since the Ist
August 617 bills had been filed on the equity side of the Irish
Court of Exchequer for the recovery of tithes. These bills were
filed in most cases for sums under £lO, and in some for sums as
low as ls. 9d. He would mention two strong examples of the
apirit iu which this frightful litigation had- been' carried on.
The first was the case of the Rev. G. Holmes against Robert
Hodges. That the bill was filed by the lay association would
not be disputed, and the following were the circumstances of the
case:—The bill was filed in the name of Mr. Holmes by Mr.
Smith, an attorney of great talent, who had, he (Mr. Sheil) be-
lieved, filed a vast number of bills on behalf of the society. He
did not blame Mr. Smith; if there was any oppression in these
proceedings, it was not Mr. Smith, but the parties who em-
ployed him, who were responsible for it. But what were the
facts of the case? Oa the 4th of January Mr. Smith wrote to
the defendant, calling on him to pay his tithe; amounting to
1:22. That letter was put into the postoffice on the sth of
January, and on the 7th the defendant called to pay the amount
of his tithe, when he was also required to pay the sum of
£l9 9s. Sd., being the amount of costs incurred-with respect to
a demand made on the 6th of January, -and which "teas met on
the following day. ( Hear, hear.) Was this statement correct ?
And if it were correct, was it creditable ? The learned member
then proceeded to detail at great -length` the-case of Knox v.
Gavin ,in which a bill had been filed against the defendant for
lls., and referred also to the letters, already published, of
Mr. Smith, the attorney, applying to Lorck Morpc•th to be in-
formed"whether, as he was engaged in bringing a great number
of tithe suits, the assistance of the police wound be granted in
cases of need to assist iu serving the processes of the court
together with Lord Morpeth's answer. After commenting at
some length upon thii case, Mr. Sheil entreated the house to
consider the state of Ireland, as affected by this lay association.
That body had expended immense sums in pursuit of the ob.
sects for which it had been formed. It had divided the country
into districts, with the view of carrying on a systematic plan of
litigation, conducted
,hy chosen attormes, in whose zeal it could
crrufide, and it had already filed' 617 bills for the recovery of
tithe in the Court of Exchequer against as many different per-
sons. The lay association had nothing to do but to file a bill
against any defendant for a few shillings, issue a commission of
rebellion, without the knowledge of the court, and appoint their
Own commissioners to carry it into effect, invested with com-
plete power over the entire police. (Hear,. hear.) The house
must consider possibilities. Might not the lay. association issue
Commission of rebellion, in which the names of the ferocious
Misereauts of orangism were introduced ? (Cries of "Oh !
oh!")i Men such as those who had burned six houses in open
`day n the county of Armagh, who bad broken into a court of
.Ustice and rescued the prisoner in the presence of the magis-
trate—might they not send down into any part of the country
such truculent monsters, and the more truculent because sin-
cere, to call out the police, to summon the soldiery, and to
*each Ireland anew with blood? He knew not whether the
name of Borrisocaue (as we understood the hon. member) struck
the ear of any member of the house as a mournful sound, but.be
know that it. excited sensations of the deepest grief in the hearts
Q, f his countrymen. He would again say that it had been his
intention not to criminate any party by the remarks he had
Made, but to put the house in possession of strong facts, to direct
'gem to scenes of slaughter, and to recall to their memories
ziewtownharry, Rathcormac, and Inniscarra. Let the English
People know these facts; if they were overstated, if they were
overchargeA, let them be corrected. 'rhe bon. and learned
ember .concluded by moving for a return of all processes
Which have issued out of his Majesty's Court of Exchequer in
Ireland, in the cause of " Knox v. Gavin"-and others, and of
all orders made in said cause, and all affidavits made therein ;
also copies of any order or orders made by his Majesty's go-
Vernment in the ) ears 1823, 1825, and 1833, respecting the em-
ployment of the.police in the service and execution of suits, and
of the signatures attached to such orders.
Mr. Sergeant Jacxsok complained that Mr. Sheil had taken
him by surprise by entering 'on so many extraneous subjects.
He (Mr. Jackson) had tome to the house expecting the learn-
-1,.(1 gentleman would confine'himself to the motion he had given.
/tad hebeen appriSed of his intention to enter on other topics,
he would have been better prepared to meet him. He would,
however, eudeavour to j tistifY himself and the other memlaws of
the lay association established to aid the clergy in the establish-
roent of their civil rights. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Shell had
charged this association with being an orange association in
disguise. This he (Mr. Sergeant Jackson)' denied. It was
the fashion now-a-days to stigmatise every protestant in Ireland
who would not submit to the domination of the catholic church.
(Loud cheers.) The members of the lay association were iuca-
Pable of confederating for any improper purpose ; they had as-
Nociated together only for the purpose of enforcing the law.
Mr. Sheil had admitted that the property of the clergy was
guaranteed to them by the law of the laud, therefore what the
taw guaranteed the law authorised them in asserting their right.
to. An extensive confederacy, a conspiracy bad been formed
throughout Ireland to rob the clergy. They had been pillaged,
Plundered,. and impoverished to such an extent that it was
Utterly impossible fur them to assert their rights alone and un-
aided. So formidable, and extensive was the combination
against them that even the hon. gentleman himself, powerful
and d influential as he was in Ireland, could not stand against it.
t-le apened t have in h possessio a letter written bte
"nu.h mepmber himself to ais
clergymann who bad applied toy hihm
for payment of arrears of tithe, refusing the request, and thus
r_edueing the clergyman t the extremity of filing a bill in the
Uourt of Exchequar for recovering the amount due, since he
could not otherwise obtain it. (Cheers.) And what was the
answer of the hon. member ? He tells him in one passage of
the letter—
Mr. SSIKIL.—Read the letter.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON.—I have not the least objection to
hand it tothe hon. and learned gentleman, and he may read it if
he pleases; bat he will do tne the honour to excuse me.
Mr. SHEIL.—Read, (Cries of" Order.")
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON.—I did not presume to interrupt the
hots. gentleman, and I do request him to leave me at liberty to
address the house as I please. He would read that part alone
which he thought necessary. The words of the passage he bad
alluded to were:--" You must be aware that, as member for
toe coup. of Tipperary, I must choose between the payment of
tithes and the loss of my seat." (Loud cheers.) He would
ask to what a pitch were ihev come when a cenfederacy—acon-
sPiracy,of this atrocious kind (great cheering) was formed to
Buell au extent that a member could not hold his seat for a po-
pulous county in the very heart of-Ireland, if he had the pre-
-B(pniPtion to disobey the mandates of these conspirators and
ischarge a lawful debt. Under these circumstances, he asked,
"aid bell rotestant say that the ministers of the church to
which heonged, while in a process of absolute starvation,
were
to be debarred from compelling, through the medium of
we law, payment of tithe from th eie persons who refused to pay
ithout its intervention? (Cheers.) The hon. and learned
%ember had dealt in allegations, many of which, he could state
positively, were not founded in fact. He said that the Lay
Association had filed, or caused to he filed, 617 bills. He de-
this statement the return he moved for would prove its
falsify. Let the hon member get that return, and he challeng-
ed uull to prove that there was the sixth or eighth part of that
number
(e'l, 6e, Of bills filed. (Cheers.) He would venture to say
4 the Lay Association had not filed, in the prosecution of
sttiits in the Court of Exchequer, beyond fifty or sixty hills
h rotiehout the whole realm of Ireland, though, of course, it
...c eild be most unjust to seek to preclude the clergy themselves
froiii taking steps to assert their rights. The hon. member had
I,4l;e:ele exceeding _Titd that the Court of Civil Suits was open to them for sums not
lie had himself been much engaged in
Exchequer during the very last terra,
piai alT,l,.:t,ms had been made to it by persons who come
lied of Lhe inipuSsibility of rendering the decisions of th

ferior courts available, unless confirmed by the superior
court. It was within his knowledge, that persons engaged
in the execution of tithe processes were frequently exposed
to the most violent outrages, and their lives placed in imminent
peril. An individual, who was lately employed in this ditty,
had no sooner approarhedahebouse where the process was., be
served than the occupier rushed out, attacked him with a pitch-
fork, raised the country, pursued the unfortunate man, felled
him to the ground, and left him on the road almost lifeless.
When his persecutors deserted him, he was able to crawl to a
neighbouring cottage. He implored the owner to give him a
little water to drink, but the answer was a severe blow on the
head with the tougs. He contrived to reach another house,
whose tenant, being a Woman, was possessed of a little more
humanity, and isave him some water, but instantly afterwards
shut the dour in'his face. He barely escaped with his life. It
was utterly impossible in Ireland to make the law available
through the intervention of inferior. and too frequently not even
through that of superior, courts. Was it to be imputed as a
crime to the clergy, that they endeavoured to vindicate their
claims through the medium of the latter, and preferred this al-
ternative to starvation ? The hon. and learned gentleman had
stated that Mr. Smith was the attorney of the Lay Association,
and was guilty of all these high crimes and misdemeanours.
Mr. SHELL. I made no charge whatever against Mr. Smith.
Mr. Serjeant JACKSON. The hon. gentleman certainly at
least mentioned Mr. Smith as the attorney. He would say that
this the hun. gentleman's second statement of matter of fact was
quite groundless. Mr. Smith neither was, nor ever had been,
solicitor to that association. That body had a solicitor, not for
the purpose of originating suits or filing bills, for they never
expected him to discharge any such office, for the purpose of
examining into the cases brought before them, that none might
receive the aid of the Lay Association, which was not
recommended by its own merits. The solicitor to the
Association was Mr. Richard Ockuey. The Association
did not wish that suits should be prosecuted for trifling sums;
they preferred that they should be instituted against persons
who were ringleaders and members of that house, or ma-
gistrates, who ought to set an examele to the population around
them. The people of Ireland had been instructed by the most
ingenious men at the bar of devices and subterfuges to which
they should resort to plunder the clergy. Were these things
to be tolerated? Could they be stated in the hearing of-a
British House of Cominons? He asked honourable men on
both sides of the house if they would countenance proceedings
of this kind? (Cheers.) Were they to be branded with the
name of Orangemen, forsooth, because they came forward to
rescue the clergy of their church from persecution? The hou.
gentlemen had stated that in the case of " Holmes v. Hodgin,"
the Lay Association had swelled the bill of costs by vexatious
proceedings to £l9 6s. Would he assert again that they had
any concern in that? Would he take upon himself to say, they
were either directly or indirectly concerned in that? He (Mr.
Jackson) verily believed they had never heard of the case. He
was a member of the association, he had made a point of attend-
ing every one of its meetings when in Ireland, and, please God,
he would do so again. He would give it every aid in his power,
both with his purse and advice, to render it available for the
purposes for which it was instituted.' (Cheers.) He should
not object to the motion of the hon. and learned member so far
as regarded the number of bills filed in the period comprhended
in it; but he hoped no objection would be made to extend the
return so far as to give the house full..and ample information on
the subject of it. He should, therefore, move, ,as an addition
to the motion, that the return should compriselhe 'number of
bills filed in the Court of Exchequer from and after the 18th of
August, 1835, specifying the parties by whom and against whom,
they were filed ; how many had to proceed to a hearing; in how
many cases the verdict was for the plaintiff; and how many
bad been dismissed without a hearing. He asked particu-
larly for this information in order that it might appear
how many had been well founded in law and justice, and
in how many instances the clergy had been driven to this
method of asserting their rights by a system of terror. (Cheers.)
After animadverting, with great severity upon other parts of
Mr. Shiel's speech, in which he asserted that an obsolete law
been enforced against the tithe defaulters, Mr. Sergeant Jack-
son said, even if it were true that the writ complained of (a
writ of rebellion) had slumbered for 200 years, it would have
been the duty of the Court of Exchequer, when a state of things
arose through the instrumentality of certain hon. and learned
gentlemen (hear, hear), like that which bad arisen, to resusci-
tate it, and to bring it again into full play and operation ; "for
the law," said Mr, Jackson, " is not to be put down and tram-
pled on, the law must be upheld, and, please God, it shall be
upheld in Ireland. (Vociferous cheering from the opposition
benches.) The hon. and learned gentleman reckons without
his host if he thinks that lie can carry a British House of Com-
mons along with him in these illegal
,and violent proceedings;
and I care not whether a man be a tory, a Whig, or, what is even
worse, a radical (laughter), for I do not think that we have yet
arrived at such radicalism, at such absurdity, as to say that the
people of England will let the law be trampled on, and its de-
crees be defied, with impunity. (Cheers.) Things have not
gone so far yet (great cheering), and I trust in God that they
never will. (Great cheering from the opposition.) I go even
further still—l say, that if this writ had never existed, it would
have been the duty of the judges of the Court of Exchequer to
have devised writs and invented processes to have met this
emergency. (Cheers from the opposition, met by ironical
cheers from the ministerial benches.) The hon. and learned
member will find, that whenever cases have occurred of a de-
clared and determined intention to set the process of the courts
at defiance, the judges have always devised writs to meet and
prevent such contempt of their authority. (Cheers.) This was
done in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, when writs of sequestra-
tion were first invented.. (Cheers from the opposition benches.)
The hon. and learned member concluded by expressing his gra-
titude to the house for the great attention with which it had
listened to his remarks, and by stating that, if the hon. and
learned member had moved for these returns without making
any observations, he should net have offered. the slightest ob-
jection to the production of their; but the hon. and learned
gentleman had thought fit to preface his motion by what he was
pteased to call a statement of facts, and that statement had
compelled him to show that what the hon. and learned gentle-
man had called facts ,were riot...facts or any thing like them.
(Cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman then placed his
amendment in the Speaker's hands, and sat down amidst loud
and long-continued cheering trout both sides of the house.
Mr. Ilusiesuggested that. the return should also contain the
amounts sought, 19 be regemted,.l.alid ;the costs. ineurred by
those proceedings.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had not the slightest objection to in-
corporate those two points in his amendment.
The debate was continued for some time with great anima-
tion. The principal speakers weroMr. O'Connell, Dr. Lefroy,
Mr. O'Loghlau, Mr. Shaw. Sir. Spring !Lice, and Lord
Af orpeth.
Mr. SIIEIL made some observations in reply, and read the
letter which had been alluded to by the learnetrt,serjeant (Jack-
son) contending that it was in every respect a,,private letter. It
breathed the most kindly spirit towards the Irish clergy, but in-
timated, that bating himself unable to collect tithes, and in the
peculiar political circumstances in which he was placed, lie
must select between the payment of tithe and the loss of his
seat. The letter had been introduced into the records of the
Court of Exchequer, and set forth in a bill filed against himself,
(Mr. Sheil,). signed by the learned serjeant.
Mr. Serjeant Iscxsor: had been induced to notice the letter
for the purpose of proving the formidable nature of the con-
spiracy against the clergy in Ireland, and to show -the necessity
there was for the formation of the lay association.
The return was ordered.
The house after disposing of some other business adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Pauir.
Lords Braybrooke and Wynford presented petitions, com-
plaining of agricultural distress; the former from Essex, and
the latter from Northamptonshire.

SPANISH PRISONERS.
The Marquis of LON DomuRRT moved—" That an humble
address be presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty
will be graciously pleased to order that there be laid before this
house a copy of the letter, written in or about the month of Sep-
tember last, by the noble lord, the secretery of state for foreign
affairs, interceding for the liberation of '27 Spaniards captured
on board the Isabella Anne, about the month of February, 1835;
and still retained as prisoners, together with the answer of the
Spanish government thereto."
Lord MELBOURNE offered no objection to the motion. The
return was ordered.

PARLIAMENTARY PRINTING—ENGROSSING BILLS.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved, that the resolutions of
the, House of Commons, relative to the present mode of prepar-
ing and printing bills, returns, &c., for both houses of parlia-
ment; and as to the expediency of discontinuing the present
mode of engrossing bills in black letter, and substituting a plain
round hand instead, which had been communicated to their
lordships through the medium of conference held with the com-
mons on the 9th and 15th of February, be referred to a select
committee.
The motion was agreed to, and the committee appointed.
On the motion of Lord Wynford, several witnesses were
summoned to attend and give' evidence before the committee on
agricultural distress.
Adjourned to Monday.