The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-11-25 00:00:00

lIHH CORPORATION SCHOOLS.

The NIAYOR said that, all the trifling matters having now
been gone through, he should call upon Mr. Rarnsden, who had
a petition to present on the subject of the adjourned discussion.
Mr. Councillor RAatsoEN said he had a memorial to present
from the inhabitants-of the North Toxteth Ward on the school
question. The sentiments it expressed were the sentiments of
a large and influential body of men professing reform principles.
The memorial purported to be from a politic meeting held on
the 22d day of November, and stated that the memorialists, hay-
iee heard with regret of the proposal to sell the corporation
schools, trusted that such a measure would not be adopted, as
i t would reflect great discredit on the council. It stated the
alarm to be very great in the ward lest the schools should be
given up, as there were no hopes that tiro surplus funds of the
corporation would provide a substitute.
'the councillor for North Toxteth Ward then said he could
say a great deal upon this subject; but, on presenting that me-
morial, he thought it proper to be as brief as possible.
Mr. Councillor PLATT begged to propose that the memorial
be received • and, in doing so, he would say a few words on the
subject. His mind had been considerably alarmed by the dif-
ferent reports that had come, and also by the letter which he
bad read about the exclusion of the bible from the schools. In
order to relieve his mind he had visited these schools; and, he
was happy to say, that so far
.as he had gone, the reports were
utterly unfounded. The bible was in use, and had never been
excluded ; and not only so, but, in the South Schools, it was
highly gratifying, to see a Protestant clergyman reading and
explaining the bible to the children, an act which redoutided to
the credit burn of the head and the heart of that gentleman—
Mr. Aspinali. That gentleman had assured hint that he daily
read and explained the bible to the children. He did not stand
there as an advocate of the Irish system of education any more
than he did of au English or Scotch system of education : but,
to his mind, this system appeared to work extremely well, and
he could not imagine anything more applicable.
Mr. Councillor E. Sums said, with regard to that meeting
he believed there was much agitation in the town on the subject,
and he should move, if it were likely that the schools were to be
done away with, that their verdict should be delayed a mouth,
in order that the public Might have an opportunity of express-
ing what their sentiments and feelings were. They would then
see that the opinions expressed at the Amphitheatre and other
places by political partisans were not the opinions of the ma-
jority of the inhabitants of the tetra. ( Hear, hear.)
Mr. Councillor BIRCH was then called on by the Mayor. He
said, when he had addressed the council before on the subject
of the schools, he haul entered very fully into his reasons for be-
lieving that it was most desirable that they should be disposed
of, tinder certain regulations, providing for their continuance
hereafter as seminaries. Since that time he had most anxiously
and carefully re-considered the subject, and although he did not
intend, nn that occasion, to propose precisely the seine motion
as he had done before, yet he was as firmly persuaded as ever,
that it was not only impolitic and unjust, but that it was abso-
lutely impossible to persevere in conducting the schools much
longer exclusively on the present system. He had in this ques-
tion endeavoured, by every means in his power, to divest him-
self of party bias; and he belies,: he might Say with truth, that
he had not indulged in any rancorous or political allusions.
Notwithstanding which, it had been said, that be bad been in-
fluenced by a dread of incurring unpopularity, and a fear of
offending the Conservative party. Aeiunst charges so general
cud heavy as these, it was extremely difficult for any man to
undertake to defeeel himself. As fur any personal feeling and
desire of popularity, the very humble station which he was till-
ing in that council would ever prevent him from presuming to
think about such a thing as popularity. It seemed to him to be
ridiculous. And as to any fear of offending the opposite party,
he could only say, that whilst he was anxious to give a becoming
consideration to the opinions of others, be did not think he had
ever, in that council, felt any great concei ii as to what party
his opinions might please, or offend. But as a reference had been
made to their moral ,:ourav on this question, they would pet-
mit bins to observe this—that he tl:ought moral* courage was
always most powerfully exhibited when it urged, as in his case,
the prosecution of what he felt to be his duty, and opposed
him to the opinions of his own parts, and the inctine-
tions of his own mind. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He
could assure them that he was net insensible to this feeling;
but be did feel a fear, and lie was not ashamed to mention it—a
fear of encouragin. a Spirit of (matinee rejection of the ascot-
tainesi wishes of the' public. (Hear.) He feared to forfeit the
character of that council in the public estimation by a pertina-
cious adherence to an acknowledged error, and, moreover, he
feared to supply the opponents of liberal institutions with a
practical argument against reform, by showing that an assem-
bly, popularly chosen, had foiled ats exclusive systeM in opera-
tion in the schools, and haul replaced it by another system still
more exclusive. (Hear, hear, hear.) The most popular
arguments he had heard against the proposition he lied
iufro-
duced iuto the council consisted merely in the assertion that
the srleai adopted in the schools had not yet bad a sufficient
trial, and that the opposition to it had originated and was still
carried on frein party and political mobs es ; but that in a very
short period the religious scruples of the protestant, would dis-
appear when the advantages derived from the present system
were seen. fie was perfectly willing to give the gentlemen
who used these arguments the utmost credit for sincerity, but
he must say that the arguments themselves were of very little
'value. It was very true, indeed, that theory against the council
had been swelled by the shouts of mauy who took very little in-
terest in the questiou, (hear,) but to urge that the great body of
the people of Liverpool was instigated by a criminal desire of
using the sacred name of religion merely for the purpose of in-
juring the reputation of that council, seemed to him to attribute
to the town a most iniquitous principle of action, and, at the
same time, to raise that council into an unnatural degree of ino
portance. (Hear.) It was his opinion that in the breasts of
a large portion of the people there existed a firm and permanent
hostility to the present system. He did believe that the pro-
testant dissenters generally would not resort to the si heels.
He was satisfied that the idea of amalgamating the diffeient
sects of religion, however it might be entertained, would never
be carried into effect. It was a very common practice with
those dissenting from the opinions of others to say that the
opinions of their adversaries were religious prejudices. Now
if this were fair in reference to one, it was fair as regarded
the whole; and the advocates of this system, when they alluded
to their opponents as persons under the influence of religious
prejudices, ought not to forget that the same observation might
with equal justice he applied to themselves. There was no
more Propriety in the friends of the Irish system of education
asserting that time would reconcile the protestants to the system
than there would have been in the clergy asserting the same
with regard to opposition to the old system, and that time would
reconcile
(Hear. the, catholics to the indiscriminate use of the Bible.
imzuise) 'betroth was, and there was no Lae in attempting to
bibed, and at religious principles and prejudices were early
any earthly peweV aid not believe when once they were fixed that
sa-
tisfaction rather thawnouT remove them. It was a source of
question had beenos(i'lle,asure to him that the settlement of
their. an oeportithity ef e'etait' Postponed; because it had given
for relieving themselves from"i:l,i: of the most desirable means
Although his object' Was difficulties which existed.
been on the former occasion, whenprecisel7hehheasaTne with what it had
aytiodef,.. yet he should
from the public mind a great source agitation et
rennme
pArornse to Istate:relish that thinky
on the questioni erne! all st
he had had time to

bearings, be hoped it would not be ill received if he modified his
former resolution. He should propose that, instead of the schools
being disopsed of, they be continued under their present system,
and that other schools should be built as early as possible, which,
should be conducted on the principles which were formerly
maintained in the corporation schools of the borough. He wad
induced to hope that by this very simple arrangement the object
they had in view would be attained, and that they would set at
rest for ever this extremely vexatious question. By this ar-
rangement, those who objected to the Irish system might send
their children to the other schools, and those who objected to
the use of the bible might take advantage of the Irish system.
He did nut know that any christian sect could but be satisfied
with one or other of these modes. lie ought to state that he
had consulted the Town-clerk as to the legality of the erection
of other schools, and he was happy to say, without entering into
the question, under the sanction of the Town-clerk, if it should
be deemed desirable by the council to accede to this proposition,
there would be no legal difficulty in such a measure. (Hear.)
He hoped, and trusted, that this proposition would be fairly and
favourably considered by all parties, and to that party. which
was familiarly styled the liberal party, it seemed to him, it could
not be otherwise than agreeable, because it would be the means
of extending to an incalculable degree the blessings of poplar
education, which would lead to the improvement of society and
the happiness of the people. Those gentlemen who formed a
part ut the council, if they were disposed to act in the true spirit
of p irty might vote against it, because they would bring on the
council great dis„race to vote otherwise, but he was constrained
to think that they would not act in such a mode. He was pate-
pared to give the seine credit to them that be claimed for him-
self; but he thought their good sense of what etas due to the
Roman Catholic's would likewise bear in mind what was due to
their constituents. He was extremely anxious that this ques-
tion shoutd be peaceably disposed of He really cared nothing
about party benefits. They were well enough in their way, but
when placed in competition with the peace, and happiness, and
contentment of society, they were, in his estimation, weak and
valueless. He trusted that the excitemeut which had been kept
up by this question would cease. Political excitements were
quite enough; but if they promoted these religious dissensions,
trey would keep the town in a continual broil. In conclusion,
he begged to propose, 'chat it was just and proper that the
benefits of religious instruction should be open to the poor of
every denomination ; and, in order the more effectually to pro-
mote this object, it was expedient to erect additional schools, to
be conducted on the praotice of the former corporation schools
-of the borough." (Cheers.) -
Mr. Councillor J. SMITH had considered the subject in all its
bearings, and conscientiously believed that the present system,
of religious instruction, introduced into the schools, had been
fairly tried, and had signally' failed. (Cries of " Hear I" and
"No, no !") Gentlemen said " No. no !" he said " Yes,
yes!" Convinced that the pieta' of religious education intro-
duced might answer extremely well in a Catholic country like
Ireland, but that it would never suit the feelings or taste of a
Protestant people like the English—firmly convinced of this,
he saw no better method that could be pursued to allay the
religious ferment in the public mind, than at once to adopt
the plan of Mr. Birch. It must be evident to every one,
from the results of the late municipal election, that the. Irish
system was a inrest unpopular one. The voice of the people was
against its introduction. (Cries of" No.") And they might as
weltendeavour to stern the tide of the ocean as to stem the tide
of public opinion. He would repeat it—the voice of the people
was against them. Its advocates might deny the fact ; but only
let them continue the experiment to the Ist of the following
November, and he would venture to predict that they would be
convinced of it in a manner that could not be mistaken of
the truth of his assertion. Taking all these mutters into cousi-
detetion, he most cordially supported the motion of Mr. Birch,
because he considered it the only method by which they could
consign to the doom of oblivion the demon of religious discord;
and the only means to infuse into the minds of contending sects
and parties charitable feelings of harmony and peace.
Mr. Councillor Beecxeuers here rose, and was immediately
followed by Mr. Councillor J. Cropper. Mr. Blackburn then
said, a member wished to move an amendment. Out of courtesy
he did not object to concede to his request.
Mr. Councillor J. CROPPER said Mr. Blackburn might make
it perfectly agreeable. He only did so in order that Mr. Black-
burn might have an opportunity of replying to his amendment
in his speech.
Mr. Blackburn then eat down.
Mr. Councillor J. Ceopeett said he did not wish to detain the
council long. With the early part of the remarks of Mr. Birch
he entirely concurred ; but he was very sorry to see that he had
changed his views since the last occasion, and proposed another
motion, leaving altogether the one which he had had the plea-
sure of seconding. He conceived that he was acting on prin-
ciple when he proposed that the corporation schools should be
sold, because he conceived that the corporation never could
conduct sch'bols on any principle which would be satisfactory to
the whole population, and on that ground he felt it his duty to
stand forward and support the resolution which he had seconded
on a former occasion. The strongest reason that he had urged
against the sale of the schools was, that it would be a concession
to popular clamour, and give the conservatives a triumph over
them and make the corporation a laughing stock. Now, if they
had done wrong, as Bible .Ceristians it would be the strongest
proof of courage to retrace their steps. (Hear.) He thought
he had done wrong when he allowed the introduction of that
system into the schools,- and, in order to put himself right he
would move, " That it be an instruction to the Finance Com-
mittee to sell the schools on a 75 years lease, or for a specified
sum ; that they be sold separately, and with the stipulation that
they be continued as schools for the education of the poor."
Mr. Councillor EDWAIO3 CROPPER, as no one seconded the
motion begged leave to second it. He did so as a matter 4f
principle. He felt bound to get rid of any system, which ex-
cluded the Bible. (Cries of " Oh.")
Mr. Councillor H. LAWRZNCE suggested the propriety of
postponing that amendment until Mr. Birch's motion had been
disposed of. He considered Mr. Birch's motion as well cal-
culated to still the public ferment and give general satisfaction.
Mr. Councillor BoeToe conceived Mr. Blackburn to he in
possession of the chair, and as such, moved that he proceed.
Mr. Councillor BLACK HURriE would take the liberty of mov-
ing as an amendment, the following:—" That the conduction
of the schools be continued under the direction of the elicas
tional committee. appointed for their management." He should
not offer any apology fur taking the liberty of intruding himself
again on the council, on this important subject. The deep in-
terest he had always felt in education generally, and the active,
part which had fallen to his lot in the management of the cor-
poration schools, should be his excuse. When the proposition
had been brought forward, he had said that he should reserve
himself, and make a few observations upon it. When a propo-
sition was brought forward to sell the schools altogether, he
could not be content to give a silent vote on the question. If
he understood rightly the arguments of the councillor for Cas-
tle-street ward, he had rested his argument chiefly on two
grounds. He trusted, he would not consider it unfair, if he
should allude to what had been published on the questiou. The
first ground was, that these schools were opposed by public
opinion, and the second was, that they were strictly, after all,
sectarian schools. He would say a word on either of those sub-
jects. He apprehended by "public opinion,' they, were to un-
derstand, in the present instancee-and the councillor for North
Toxteth bad adopted his opinion—was meant the opiniou of the
majority. He would grant that this system had been most
vehemently opposed by a very influential, and powerful party,
usually de-nominated the high church, and tory party. They
were well aware that it would be so. Every one must have
known that that party was most strenuously opposed to this
system, from the very first hour of its introduction, with one
brief exception. He alluded to the period during which the
Peel and Wellington administration was in office During that
time the opposition to this system ceased for a while, and when
the ministry in power announced, as they did, that they in-
tended to continue the system, and to make larger grants of
money in support of it, than had been granted in preceding
years, then this violent opposition had sank down into oblivion.
nut the moment Sir Robert Peel, and his parts, were driven
front power, it was re-urged, with all the cant about excluding the
Bible, in order to annoy a patriotic ministry. Ile was aware,
un moving the resolution fur the introduction of the Irish sys-
tem into the corporation schools, that it would be necessary to
count the cost, and anticipate the opposition they had expe-
rienced. He hail done so ; and he felt there was nothing in
that opposition which ought, he contended, to have the slightest
influence on their opinions. That opposition was precisely
what they ought to 'expect—neither more nor less. It was trite
indeed, that some few individuils, who had not usually acted
with that party, along with the influente they had, had been
drawn ever to them, a few of those who were usually found
among the racks of the reformers. But they were influenced
by mistaken netiens, and were under a delusion; and he en-
tertained et) doubt of their return to their former opinions.
(Loud cries of heer.) It teas a.serted that the majority of the
eeeple were egainvt them, anti an appeal had been made, on
the former occissiere and ore the present occasion, by the coun-
cillor for West Derby Ward to the facts of the late election. At
the lute late electiete the reformers had returned a majority;
Si that, even taking that as the criterion, there was no de-
eisive evidence that the majority were against them. And
lie would take the liberty of stating that the school ques-
tion eves not the only question ou which it had been endea-
voured to make a point against thorn. Ilad there been no effort
in relation to the police question ? Had there been no attempt
made on the score of the iuterfcrence of the police, and the vi-
gilance which had been exercised by that body in repressing
crime ? ( Hear.) To do their opponents justice, they were
very excellent tacticians. They knew hew to take advantage of
particular circumstances in their favour ; and they were not
over.nice about the 'ileums. ( Hear.) While one Party were
turning up the whites of their eyes at the sad enormity of the
exclusion of the Bible front the schools, another party were ban-
quetting and feasting together, and coquetting with the keepers
of saloons, condemuing the police, and all fur the love of Con-
servatism, and for the love of the Protestant cause ! (Loud
cries of hear, and laughter.) A considerable degree of outcry
raised by the party might be attributable to tins. it was not to
be wondered at, especially when they took into consideration
that the triumph of their own party, at the first municipal elec-
tion, had lulled many of the wails into a state of unwise and
false security, and aroused the opposite party to the use of these
means in order to secure success. But, after all, where was the
evidence that the public voice was against them ? So far from
that, he would venture to contend that the contrary was the case.
Was it not a fact that a very considerable proportion of the most
influential members of the Church of England supported and
approved of these schools. He maintained that to be the tact
in opposition to the opinion which his friend the member for
Castle-street Ward had urged ; and an immense majority of
Dissenters highly appreciated and valued 'the importance of the
system, and bad continued to do so from the very first moment
of its introduction ; and the Roman Catholic poi.ulation were
with them as the heart of one man. They hailed the establish-
ment of these selections as an immense benefit to them ; and it
was an evidence on the part of England towards lreland, that
the union of Ireland with England was something mote than a
name. (Hear.) The noise the party made was no proof of
their numbers—no proof of their strength--(hear)—on the con-
trary, violence and vehemence were pretty plain indications of
their want of power ; and when they considered that public
meetings against the system were got up for the pui pose, and
the lashing it had received from the pulpit, they might believe
that it was a proof that the opposition to it was failing in its
effect and dying away. (Hear, from Mr. Councillor Egerton
Smith.) He contended that the first argument adduced had not
the weight that its propounder attached to it; and so far from
there being any reason to'aholish the system on that ground,
they had every encouragement to persevere iii it. Suppose they
as the means of set tiring peace,
were to change their course,
and to put au end to religious discerd and *di iro in the town, did
they think that any such effect wonld follow Did tiny man
imagine that the opposition of the 'Tory party iii the members
of that Council would be changed ? So far from that being the
case. the very circumstance of conceding to public opinion
would have the effect of furnishing* them with new and additional
arguments to oppose them, and taunt them with pusillanimity,
and hold up this as a proof of their ti:tal wails of principle, and
of their preference of place to the maintenance of those princi-
ples which they held to be right, and on that ground as un-
orthy of public confidence, and deserving to be exCluded from
the council. And what would they gain by peace purchased in
such a mode? If one party were pleased, it did not follow that
every body would be pleased. Would their friends who had
supported them he perfectly satisfied ? So far from peace, the
only effect would be, that, instead of being attacked by those
who were and must be their enemies, they would then be at-
tacked. by their friends ; and, after being guilty of that weak-
ness, and subjected to other complaints, they tv:iithl find that
they bad not conciliated thc.;se who Would be for ever opposed