The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-06-15 00:00:00

ELECTION PETITIONS.

Sir ft.l"ert.-brought iu a bill for amending the laws relating
.
'tomMe-ai of electitni- petitions. He was anxious to bring it
forward for di-scussints at an early hour, when there was a pros-
'fleet of Alarger attendance; but he was in the hands of the
Thetifl was one so far of general interest as that
it-cuntil,riotlse-'considered in,the light of one brought in by a
priiateiheraber-of tire house. - •
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had stated to the house, that there were
,ieVeral -nine 'brought in, nut, only by the government, hut disy.
'private members of the honse, which should be considered.
Havihg already orange(' • the• orders of the day should take
rectiet4 of notices, he was deprived of the power of accediug
la' titre PrbpOsition now made by the right honourable baronet.
kiii:tieivi•PEEL then gave notice, that he should move the
second Veilditig of toe bill on Wednesday week.
aIUNICIPALCORPORATiONS (IRELAND).
teirrielni•:Ressust., in rising to move the further progress
of this bill,. would say, by way of preface to the motion, that
the house 'in general would feel it more convenient that the
•hilYiaerng been gone through committee pep furnu2, and with-
ont havtlig been regularly. discussed, that it should be re-
comineted;'-rather than that the discussion ShUtild be taken
upen.the bringing up Of the report.- He therefore moved that
the-bill 'berescommitted: • • . .
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair;
111 r; O'CONNe-et, rose 'and said: I request the indelgence of
the house; while l'atteinpt to give reasoirewhy this' bill should
nut 'be re-coininitted at present. Aly object in delay is, that I
may have au opportunity of niaturing such materials as have
come into my possession 'lately, ad' that' I May be enabled to
sheiv-the houselhnt thepropOsed plan Ought not to be adopted,
esneeially with regard to the•eity rtf Dubin,. I mean to call the
attention of the house to the particular situation in which the
.(,:apchise in that city is placed, and to shew the impossibility
of• ',riving a good municipal franchise to the electors of that
city; unless the house Was•in'pessessiOn of more facts than it at
Present had knowledge of. When "a prospect was held out of
conceding to the. Irish people nionicipal institutions—when it
was diseoYered id Ireland that th-A opposition party in this house
had given up their intentions of destroying municipal corpora-
tiiihs, it was received with unthingled satisfaction; and the
lurking suspicion which dwelt' npantny mind, that it would all
turn out u delusion, did not find place- in the breasts of my
eoulitrycoen.' In order to understand the sentimeet that thus
preyails, the house ought distinctly to know what it is the peo-
ple of Ireland require in this respect. 'Whey know Scotland has
got a corporate reform bill upon the parliamentary franchise.
They know that England has got a municipal reform bill under
another franchise. In England and Scotland theparliamentary
franchise is different. In England it depends on the rating of
the party to the poor. Each requires residence. The residence
is-required to be hewer in England than in Scotland. The
English Ponr-law Bill is -coupled with the necessity of triennial
residence, and payment of rates, previous to the iegistry. It is
desired to get either the Scotch plan or the English plan, and
it is posSible to realise it in every thing but in the payment of
poorsrates, evhich,, of course, cannot tee expected in Ireland;
therefore, calling for the English plan would be an absur-
(thy on-the face of it, there having been -no poor-rates there.
The government proposed a six-months' residence prior to the
registry, a paetnent of the triennial poor-rates. That was
tlituk,,ht too shorr a period by'the right hfm. baronet, and he
substituted one year's residence in place of half a year. That
was hiS proposal. I err. ready to accede to his prnposal--ofH
course, I am speaking of the substitute for the by-gone iiayruentsl
of poor-rates. His proposal was to substitute an actual resi-
deuceeoftwelse month. I adept his substitute' and, adopting
iris'substitute in every other respect, I call on the house to give
to the people. of Ireland either the English or the Seotch bill.
iesbe eirconastauces in which Ireland now is, I would infinitely
prel'er. -the Scotch system. It is inure simple, and it affords
materials whicli we have in Ireland. If the house would give
uethe bill; with the Scotch municipal franchise, t will accept it
cheerfully and gratefully. But if the house refuse us the bill,
'which I should prefer, and give us the English Bill, identify us
With' -I:riglish institutions in this respect,•l will ;Adopt it,at.eece,
althougn reluctantly, on account of its eoini-ifications. But 1
will receive it. as a alattPr cc;nciliation ru-nd jubtwo to Ireland.
1 want either throne dull or the other.
. Mr; ifole seconded the motion.
No Member having risen for seine moments'after the Speaker
had pit 'toe question and amendment, much laughter was ex-
cited on the opposition side of the lionse, when Lord J. RUS-
SELL estentually rose to address it. The noble lord said he was
not aware.how his rising on such a question could occasion any
!engines in the house. If it was time opinion of the house that
the bill should be postponed for a short period, he would have
po objection to concede to the wishes of the house. (Hear,
heal%)
. Sir F. PEEL conceived the noble lord had charge of the bill.
If he (Sir IL Peel) -had made such a proposition at so advanced
a period of the session, it might naturally be interred that he
wished to postpone the' consideration of the bill for another
session. (Loud cneere) If the noble lord made his election
to postpone the blenstanding there as the representative' of the
goYernment, the house could not interfere. ( Hear, hear.) He
('Sir H. Peel) certainly would not recommend its postpone-
ment. He would leave it to the noble lord to determine
whether he would postpone the committee or not.
•Lerd JOHN. RUSSELL thought it would be much better for fhe
house to go into committee to-night. Considering the number
of 'irtem.ners present, he thought, whatever was determined in

'econinittee, that an opportunity should be afforded to the hon.
and learned member of statint,'' the facts to which he had ad-
vert,td, relative to the city of Dublin. lie thought that the
faCts tOowed.a difference between the city of Datr:in and other
towns. is ireiand and this country, and he thought the bill
ought not to pss through the house without the case of Dublin
being considered. But the house might now go iuto committee,
and take the general question of the franchise.
The question was then put on the amendment, and negatived
without a divisiOn ; and the house went into committee.

•-• .-The house having gone into committee, the clauses, up to
five inclusive, were postponed • and the sixth was taken into
consideration. This, it. will be recollected, fixes the qualifica-
tion fora municipal elector; and when the bill was lately be-
fore the house, £5 per annum was inserted. as the amount of
rent required to be paid for the purpose of the 'payer becoming
entitled- to a vote.

• Sir R. PEEL rose and said—Sir, the hon. and learned gen-
tleman, the member for Public], has stated, that the speech de-
livered by toe in this house some days ago, expressive of a hope
that the three questions respecting Ireland, which had remained
so long unsettled, might he brought to a satisfactory issue, had
• beenreceived in that country with unanimous satisfaction and
applanse, but that I had subsequently spoken in a manner to
' disappoint the 'hope which that speech had created. Now, I
stn sure it will be in the recollection of all who heard me on
' the occasion to which- the hon. and learned member alludes,
that I distinctly stated, on that occasion, that I was willing to
withdraw toy opposition to the Municipal Corporation Bill upon
rTo.urfri, which 'I then fully explained. (Cheers.) Those
grounds were, that the municipal franchise- in Ireland should be
' n£lo franchise of a clear value to that amorint, and that the
teat of that value should be the test of rating.
.Upon that point
, there cnuld be no mistake. (Cheers.) I, therefore, again ap-
:.peal to. the liberal f.leliug and considerate judgment of the
!muse if this proposal ought not to be adopted, as moderate,
.
reasonable, and just. I Cheers.) Let not, this question be
• .
int:died upon as a party question, or as one in .which it is
ihtkid'ect• by Me to offer any insult to Ireland, (Cheers.)
I only call upon the house to hear my arguments with attention,
' and ceuaider tnein with deliberation. I adhere to• the proposi-
VOnI Made on the former night, because I have been convinced,
liy;sijltsequent.deliberatioo,.that,it is a just and reasonableone.,
rask,t,,it :has- fieen' :Objected 'to -me,' that I am going, to raise the
poor man's 'franchise in Ireland. No! I am going to make a
;new franchise altogether,—not going to raise the amount of any
qualiticatien, unless it had heretofore been previously unfairly
taken at. far less than it was sworn to be. (Hear, hear.) Then,
assuredly, I am going to raise it to the amount to which it pro-
fesse,a.to be, and which it ought to be. (Hear, hear.) I utterly
disclaini any desire-to continue to monopolise for any party the
inflhence in corporate affairs. I also decidedly disclaim any
desire to establish a virtual £I4 franchise. I believe that we
shall find. that what I have proposed will be fully sufficient in
the way of precaution,—occultation for 12 months, residence for
6 months, and qualiiication by the poor-rate about to be esta-
blished; there being no other eqUable test that can be rendered .
available in Ireland, I have attempted to show that the £IQ.
franchise is neither unreasonable in itself nor unnecessary, nor
unsupported by precedent in England and Scotland; and that
in these eleven towns it will not give the Protestants or the pro-
fessors of any religious faith an undue preponderance. The
measure. such as it is, is one of mutual concession and com-
promise; for I was called on to. Make sacrifices as well as you,
and feet in so doing I have done my duty. if you accept it—
(Cries of "Never")—it may pass into a law that may lay the
foundations of peace and good will in Ireland, and ensure for
the towns that good local government which is so much to be
desired for the welfare of all patties, and which it now rests
with von to attain. (Cheers, and cries of "Never" from
Messrs. O'Connell, Shell, &c.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL very much regretted that the right hon.
baronet had, after the consideration he had bestowed on this
subject thought proper to persevere in his proposition. The
right hon baronet was correct in gating, 'that those on the mi-
nisterial side of.t he house did not agree Whist former proposition
to adopt the £lO rate for England, but the objection was not
that the rate was various iu different parishes. He ( Lord John
Ressell) had said them if it were adopted great numbers of per-
sons would be disfranchised, to whom the government honestly
intended to bestow. the franchise. As to the Scotch bill, whe-
ther the franchise adopted tinder it was the best that could have
been chtsen or not, he was not.then prepared to argue, but if
the question were put to him whether this bill should, with re-
gard to the franchise, tie made like the Scotch bill, or whether
even the Scotch franchiSe should be extended, he roust candidly
renfeSi that he should rather he inclined to agree to the latter
proposition. (Cheers.) With reeard to the Eugli-h municipal
aet, they might look in 'vaiti Cur any f.:10 franchise. seCompanied
withal rats ;.• and lie must he nlin‘%ed in s,IY, u" fir iii any
preeedeia or be titer sinrtion woe concerned, tlie,pr,:pei
nositioo ef..the rieht hoe. veil-Ile:win ittvolveil qiio;irwati"
higher tt.iip that of the %et e fer_an n,,, 21,er i t itariiiv,
rim' it or tor English or eeenc,loys, (lear.)
'taw rigtioi tin!): th,,,t he Jt,.il 1;:itow iiptny
instiiher.s 4.l.ll4!•l:lofratteltise fer teeieber,4 of I,;:rlin.:i:el:(inkvi3.l,4
been abwed..,. ( Lord J. Russell) w h flr4];i ot point, -
on-the parentoienSior. (Hear.) Ile ii rea..ty 1.. n aomitiiHt:
rafirig should be taken :Is a tCst of the qua liheation,„(9,r the frau- ,
clinic under this bill,—(cheers)—hut LA a (Hear )

11.4- shrinlil have been content, to anxious was he to come to an
amicable adjut trnent of lois oaestion—(hear),--,either with some
diminution of the proposed 1,-10 franchise, or some modification
of the £5 Patiehise ; -'--(hear) but merely to rise and Make a
proßosition With the.certainty of having it rejected by the hon.
gentlemen at the other side, of the house would be idle on his
part—(cheers fibm the ministerial side)—and he must therefore
content himself with simply opposing the £lO franchise of the
hon. gentleman. (Cheering.)
Sir E. SLGDEN was understood to argue, that a person claim-
ing to vote for miinicipal• councillors in Ireland should not
merely occupy, as shetest of his qualification, a house rated un-
der the poor law at £lO a-year, nut that he should for Such
house pay a clear rent •of 110 after the deduction of all other
charges, &c. connected with it.
The ATTonNEY.GRNEIcAI, contended that the effect of the
proposition of his right hon. friend would be to raise the fran-
chise higher in Ireland than in Scotland.and in England. The
right tin. gentleman opposite had contended for a test of value,
and that such test should be-the assessment. Now, asin the
assessment allowance necessarily would be made for a dedoc-
tion for outgoings,. taxes, repairs, insurances, and similar
charges, it would necessarily follow, that the man who paid ten
pounds a-year rent would not be rated, at more than eight,
pounds; so that, if being rated at ten pounds were to be made
the test of value, one-half of those who would be otherwise en-
titled to vote would be disfranchised. In the Irish poor law bill
a deduction was made for all outgoings for repairs and in;
sura‘ices; and though 110 a-year was the parliamentary fran-
chise, if the proposed test was adopted, it would not "be the
municipal franchise.
Sir FoI.I.ETT said, they were all-agreed as to the want of
some test of qualification. - (Hear.) But then it -twat._ urged
from the other side, that to take the assessment of the.poors'
rate as a test would have the effect of raising the value of the
franchise ahove £10; but that .they bad nwohjectiun to Mar
mode which would be free from this disadvantage:
Mr. SHEII, declared that he, like Sir Robert Peel, desired
" uniforMity" in the matter ott he inutticipalfranchise•, but he
looked to a " nobler uniformity".than thnt,contepplated..4y the
right ho.n. baronet—he looked to rin ifUrinity, not between various
towns in7tirvlanit. but. -to,Ainiforiiiity:hetWeeli Ireland and
England.
,The whole condisct of <the,Fonaeryatives indicated a
desire to depress the Roman Cat Ireland. -
Ser.R. Pi.EL begged to repeat that 4Won:y desired n'honci.
fide Ell/franchise., e did . otdesiretwitweast thefranch ise,
If it could be proved that 'the proposed test of rating would
really raise the propOsed,qualifieatiri of "tio-abii444;l9, there
was no fair modification of the test to which :he- sung& not
consent.
O'C'OxOtt,t, declared that Sii'llobert Peel had'insulted
, Ireland; by aceusing I rlsh.rnen of proneness to perjury; an lin-
putittion Which Sir Robert; with much earnestness-repelled..
• The committee then divided.. when there appeared,—Foribe
clause, 7/36; against it, 266; Majority; '2O. • ' •
On the motion of Lord joniki linsasa.L. the hotisa thensre-
gamed.
liq)ort to be received on Friday.