The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-08-05 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

interrupted, they would at length have the reward of the tranquil- (" Hear," and laughter.) Yes, and he looked upon it that
lily and satisfaction of Irelaud; that she would form a main part . clergymen were far below soldiers and sailors in the services
of their strength; that she would be a willing assistant to them in they retilered to the country. But the truth was that. the whole
war, and an admirable part of their prosperity and force in peace. ' et this struggle was for the loaves and fishes. • (('.heers from
The noble lord concluded by moving that the amendments of , both sides of the house.) It was all it love of in ,n,.v. (Cheers
the lords be taken into consideration this day three months. . and laughter.) The struggle was how to make the Most money
The question having been put from the chair, 1, of the church, and to pay as little as possible to those who did
Sir H.. PEEL rose. The right hon. baronet commenced by the tired work. The right hon. baronet opposite, whom he re-
saving that the motion with which the noble lord had conclud- - gretted not to see just then in hie place, had spoken of the small
ed his speech was, of course, tantamount to a total rejection of majority of twenty six by which the principle of appropriation
,
the amendments in the bill made by the House of Lords, and ; was supported; but did the right hon. baronet forget his own
necessarily amounted to the postponement for another year of speech when he was taking leave of office? In that speech the
the long-agitated question of tithes. (Hear, hear.) The noble 1 right hon. baronet had said that he had hoped to break down
lord had rested his' opposition to the amendments of the lords ' the majority of twenty that first appeared against him, hut,
upon a double ground—first: upon doubts whether these amend- finding that he was unable to do so, and that the majority had
ments did not interfere with the constitutional privileges of that 1 increased to so large a number as twenty•seven, he thought it
house. The other class of objections made by the noble lord ! his duty to resign. (Ministerial cheers ) Yet after this the
were upon the substantial merits of the case, and upon the im- i right hhn. baronet said the government ought not to persevere
pelicy of making the settlement advised by the House of Peers ! with so small a majority as twenty-six. Honourable gentle-
He should follow the example of the noble lord, and, consider' ; men opposite really forgot themselves. (Renewed laughter.)
separately both views of these amendments. But, first, ho (,They were like the 'Chinese eye, that thought no eye equal to it.
must premise, that if the objections hinted at rather than ex- I (Roars of laughter.) He would recommend the right honeba-
pressed by the noble lord, on the ground of interference with I ronet to read his own speech made to his own parliament, where
constitutional privileges, could be maintained, those objections 1 he confessed Obit he could not go on with a majority of twenty-
ought to be directly and explicitly stated, (general cheers,) and seven against hiin. But then the right hon. baronet said that
made the ground of a preliminary refusal to consider this case. ihe had the lords with him. What cared lie (Mr. Hume) about
It would then be left to them to consider whether or cot their I the lords? Let the lords confine themselves to their own
hopes of mutual understanding were so great as to justify them i chamber. What community of feeling was there between the
inproceeding further, and in that case to move for leave to I lords and the people of this country? And could it be said that
bring in a new bill ; or, if they despaired of the possibility of i the people of England were adverse to the claims of the Irish
such an understanding, of course to decline taking any further l netion ? They called themselves, he believed, the hereditary
steps. It would surely be infinitely better for them to waive i protectors of the poor; but dill the poor look' upon them as pro.
any objection to this bill on the ground of constitutional privi- 1 teeters at all ? The fact was that the people now saw through
lege, and approach the consideration of its merits, than to bring I them. (A laugh.) lie and those on his side of the house
forward in a speech a doubtful claim, to litigate the right of acted upon principle, but the hoe. gentlemen opposite acted
the House of Lords to make any alteration, and to reject the altogether upon. party feeling. • (Laughter.) All the country
bill on such indistinct grounds as to leave the public hereafter now wanted was to get rid of the party opposite, (loud laughter)
in doubt as to the nature of their objections. (Cheers.) How- and of the evil influence of that party. It' they were destroyed,
ever, as the question of privilege had been raised, he ehould bet, he could see no end to the prosperity of the country. (Roars
glad of having the opinion of the chair regarding' it before het of laughter.) Let him remind the right hon. baronet of his
proceeded. Before 1 proceed (the right hon. baronetcuncluded) persevering opposition for many years to conceding the claims
to consider the argument of the noble lord with respect to the of the Roman cat holies, and how he was afterwards driven to a
substantial merits of the question, I think, sir, that it may be of sudden concession of those claims. He would recommend the
great advantage to hear your opinion. ( Hear, hear.) right hon. baronet to benefit. by past experience, and concede
The SPEAKER said, that since he was thus called upon, he church reform in time. This bill would he no further a blow to
would endeavour to state, as clearly as he could, his opinion the protestants of Ireland than it went to destroy that orange
respecting the queition of privilege. The bill which had been faction which had so long prevented the people of Ireland from
returned to them from the other house, for the regulation of the being treated as they ought. It would be a blow struck at op-
revenues of the Irish church, could be regarded in no other pression and to relieve the oppressed. lie should give his most
light than as a bill for the new distribution of existing property. cordial support to the motion of the noble lord, which he had no
He should not be of opinion, according to the best judgment he doubt would be carried by a larger majority than that which
could form, that there could be any objection to the lords ex- compelled the right hon. baronet opposite to give up' the reins
pressing a different opinion from the House of Commons with of government:
respect to the particular manner in which the distribution was Mr• SHAW said that he could have wished that the hon. gent.
carried into effect. , had favoured the house with the species of animals to which he
Sir It. Peet, thought he might assume that the discassion of bad alluded, as thinking that no one saw them but themselves.
the question was disembarrassed of the question of privilege, (Laughter.) The hon. gentleman had very candidly confessed
and that he was at liberty to address the house on the merits of that this was a party question; but then he said that the party
the question. (Cries of , Hear, hear," from both sides of the feeling was all on his (Mr. Shaw's)side of the htiakte' :But the
house.) He approached the second and no doubt the more ho- hon. gentlemen seemed to differ very widely flithilice' govern-
portant part of the noble lord's speech—namely, the objections went which he supported upon this question, for the bon. gen-
urged by him upon principle to the acceptance of the amend- tleman avowed that he did not look to this es a final Measure,
ments of the lords. The noble lord advised them to reject this but maintained the principle of alienation, while the noble lord
bill, because it did not embody within it the principle of the re- opposite declared that he viewed the present bill as leading to a
solution adopted in the House of Commons in April, 1835, and final settlement of the question. In his (Mre Shaw's) opinion
which, whatever might be the intention of the resolution, was the real question was whether, under the present circumstances
directed to the end and had the effisct of removing the adtninis- of the Established Churcti in Ireland, it would be right, or just,
tration of which he was at the head. Was it wise, then, for or expedient, to apply its revenues to any other than its own
this was the simple question, to reject the decided improvement proper purposes. The clergy of Ireland entreated of the go-
made by this bill, for the purpose of insisting on an adherence vernment to give up this barren abstraction, and to contritnite
to that principle? (Cheers.) They would obtain by this bill a their efforts, honestly and sincerely, to a substantial, a just, a
reduction of 25 per cent. in the amount of the tithe composi- satisfactory, and permanent settlement of this great question,
tion ; the rent-charge would be imposed upon the protestant which would ensure good government to Ireland, and peace and
landlord; the occupying tenant would be relieved altogether prosperity to the empire at large. (Cheers.)
front any direct payntent ; they would remove the ministers of Mr. Sergeant O'Loantseet said there were two questions be-
the establishment from any conflict with the tithe-payers by en- fore the house. One called upon them to dissent from the
aiding a department of the government to collect their re- amendments of the other house of parliament; and the other to
venues; they would provide for the reform of the church of concur in the measure as sent down to them. He advocated
Ireland; they would insure the review of every living., without the former alternative as an act of justice to. Ireland. He
in
exception, the income of which was more than £560 per an- might be stigmatised as a perjurer thr voting at all upon this
num • they would insure the review of every living which re- - - '
question. ['his should not deter him from deciding upon the
quire'd it; they would insure a consideration of the state of the question according to his opinion of its merits.
church and of the glebe-houses; and they would have it in their
Sir J. GRAHAM, On rising, was loudly cheered. It was with
power to take effectual precautions against alleged abuses,
great reluctance that he again troubled the house; but while he
against the holding of pluralities, for instance, or of benefices
felt that he could not consistently give a silent vote on this
with exorbitant incomes attached. The noble lord advised the
question he would endeavour to be as brief as possible. He
house not to consent to the realization of these admitted benefits
felt himself. obliged to give a passing notice to a part of the
and improvements, because the bill did not embody within it- speech which had just fallen from the hon. and learned gentle-
self the alienation of church property. It was not the amount
man ou the subject, for the introduction of which, although
of the sum taken from the church which he considered—this
was not his chief ground of objection. It was this—he objected somewhat irrelevant to the discussion, he did by no means blame
to any alienation. (Cheers ) He objected to alienation on that hon. and learned member. He alluded to the oath of the
account of the objects proposed by this bill, as he conceived Roman catholic members. He had himself been a strenuous
supporter of the Roman Catholic claims, but had he not felt as-
such alienation to be pregnant with danger. (Loud cheers.)
sured that the Roman catholic members would be bound by an
His objections were infiuitely greater to the principle of alien-
oath as strict as that imposed on protestant members, he cer-
ation, and to the mode in which it was meant to be applied.
tainly would not have voted fur it. (" Hear, hear," from Mr.
lie contended not against the amount proposed to be alienated,
O'Connell.) More than that, when an hon, friend of his, Mr,
so much as against the principle it established, which affected,
as he thought, the independence of the church of Ireland, sub-
Wihnot Horton, endeavoured by a motion in that house to
jesting it to the control of a committee of the Privy Council,
restrict the Roman catholic members from voting on certain
who were indefinite in number, and holding office at the will matters relating to the church he (Sir James. Graham) would
of the Lord Lieutenant. He would say, that his main objec-
not agree to that motion; because lie felt that unless they were
tion was to the principle involved in the bill, to the nature of bound by a general oath, as protestant members were, it would
not be right to admit them at all, wijle, on the other hand, be
the dependence which it established, and to the perfectly unde-
was not disposed to place any restr'i'ction upon their conscien•
fined nature of the demand. The noble (Lord Jr. Russell) said
that he relied much on the force of popular opinion in support sinus exercise of'the privilege ensured to them. He believed
that the gentlemen then admitted had the same hopes and fears
of this measure. As far as they had had means of ascertaining
the bias of public opinion since the question eves discussed in beyond the grave that he himself had, and he was, therefore,
1835, it was not in confirmation of the noble lord's assertion. satisfied to leave it totheir consciences to determine what course
they would pursue. Those who framed that oath thought that
(Loud cheers.) The government was in office, and whatever
i
influence office conferred was iu favour of' this principle. There it would be adhered to, and that great caution would be observed
appeared to have been several vacancies, and he would ask, by those hon. members in dealing with subjects connected with
had the constituencies decided in favour of this principle? the protestant established church. (Hear.) For his own part
(Loud cheers from the oppoitien beuchesd They had had
he now believed that if those hon. members of the Roman ca-
tholic faith who had voted for this bill in its original state had
ported by vast majorities tai the House of Lords. They had the
attempts at the settleinenteef the tithe question in Ireland sup-
conceived that its provisions were inconsistent with the safety of
same attempts supported by a powerful minority in the Housethe protestant church they would not have supported it. (Hear.)
l'he hon. member also said that the ap'propriation clause itself
of Commons, approaching within 26 on the last occasion to the '
as a of ffere to th eo of I, but majority which decided in favour of this principle. The opin-
t they wouldmatter remainindi afterwnce ards as helple p
ales ever trelando the protestthatant
ions of the two branches of the legislature were therefore di-
established church. The hon. and learned gentleman said that
vided, and the opinions of the house of Commons very nearly
approximated. They had had since that principle had been
the Roman catholic occupier could not practically divest himself
-
of the idea of his being really the payer of the tithe;' but the fact
embodied in the resolution adopted by the house, independent
of vacancies on account of office—they had had 31 vacancies, that all tithe was ultimately paid by the landlord had been made
When that resolution was voted in April, 1833, the occupiers of quite clear in argument, and this bill only went to give that
those 31 seats, if his calculation was correct, voted in favour of argument its natural shape. While the bill afforded a rational
m
the principle in the proportion of 21 to 10 of the members of mode of disposing of the tithe question he maintained that the
those seats which had become vacant being more than a clear appropriation clause answered no adequate end as regarded the
,
double. But it was said that the house was pledged to reject real interests of the people of Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) Had no t
this measure, as it ditinot embody the principle of the resolution the principle done all it could do ? Had it not upset the govern-
which the !muse had adopted, unless they were at the same time went of the right hon. baronet the member for Tamwortb—
prepared to reject this resolution. Is it wise I ask, to reject the (hear, and a laugh)—had it not succeeded in securing for minis-
attainment of a great and practical good because the rere
tars the support of the hon. anti learned member for Kilkenny
season for enforcing a theoretical opinion has not yet come ? —(hear, hear)—his very powerful support—(hear, hear)—and
(Hear.) We say we wish to see a settlement of the tithe ques-
had it not served as a binding principle between ministers and
their ultra-radical supporters? (Hear, hear, hear.) The hon.
lion ; but we say the principle embodied in the resolution of
the house precludes the possibility of a settlement, and that you member for Middlesex had put the case very strongly when he
are not entitled to demand the enforcement of any such grin-
said that the measures of the government must accord with the
feelings of the people. The elections had been referred to in the
ciple—amid therefore we have resisted it, and therefore we will
resist it. The noble lord says it is for the benefit of the church. gross : he would refer to a few in detail. What did Notting-
The noble lord's opinion does not in this resnect receive the hamshire say to the appropriation clause? (Hear.) It reject-
support of high authorities combined with the noble lord in the ed it. What did Merionethshire say to it ? It disregarded it.
administration of the affairs of this country. When this bill (Hear, hear.) Essex ? It despised it. (Cheers') What did
was brought forward last year by the chief of the government, in Warwickshire say to that clause ? It laughed it to scorn.
the other house, he did not urge the acceptance of the bill on (Renewed cheers.)—[An hon. member: " Cumberland !"]—
the ground of ensuring safety to the church. The noble lord Ay, What did they think of Cumberland? (Loud cheering.)
the member for Lancashire hid quoted the passage to the noble He thanked the hon. member forthat allusion. It brought hint
lord opposite, who admitted that the speech did not bear him at once to a somewhat melancholy subject, which he was sp-
out as quoted, but produced a revised and corrected CO)).
for they show in the strongest
proaching. It might be said by hon. members opposite that the
Those words I will again '
cities and towns alone contained the true public opinion. A
quote,
possible light how delusive are the hopes held out of security to lamented and respected friend of his, with Whom he had always
acted and voted, had been menaced on account of the part he
the protestant church from the adoption of this principle. The
had taken on this very subject. He represented the city of
noble Premier said, " I am deeply sensible and !smell con-
Newcastle—a city which had had the advantage of a visit from
cerned at the result of this measure. I feel that this bill may,
the hon. and learned member for Kilkennv—(opposition cheers)
and I cannot conceal from myself that it Will, he in the first
instance, and for a certain time, a heavy-blow and a great dis- —who appeared there as the supporter di' the administration of
couragement to protestantism in Ireland—(Loud cries of
Lord Melbourne,' and as the apostle of the government. (Dis-
" Heard)—that it will be also a great triumph to the adverse sent from Mr. O'Connell.) Did the hon. and learned member
Party I admit the great peril and danger which necessarilydisclaim the object of his visit ? He (Sir J. Graham) understood
attends upon and accompanies such mighty and fundamental him him to have said that his was a mission in favour of his Majesty's
changes, and that the shake and convulsion they create render government and justice to Ireland. (Loud cheering.) The
doubtful the safety not only of the established church but of right hon. baronet explained that in reply to an observation of
the constitution of the county." (Great cheering.) I agree the hon. member for Middlesex as to the state of public feeling
in this, and seeing the assurances which you gave at the 'Union on this question, he was about to show what the electors of New respect to the protestant church—seeing the hope that you castle bad thought of it. In answer to the question of tbe,hon.
held out at the removal of civil disabilities that, so far fuo:n per- member, as to what was the state of public feeling, he was about ,
mitting it to prejudice, it should increase the security of the to state that the hon. and learned member for Kilkenny bad, in
church—l greatly doubt, whatever be the alternative, that it is the spirit of his mission, preached on that text which he (Sir J.
either justice or policy to give that terrible, that heavy blow to Graham) conceived to mean catholic ascendancy and the spo-
protestantisee in Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) If that blow be ine- liation of the protestant church. Of his late lamented friend it
vitable, this 1 knew, that we are much more likely to take seine was said that he had been an apostate and a renegade, and that
security against its prejudicial effect by resisting the force it was the duty of the electors to deprive him of his seat; and at
against it, than by lending our
of it, and by standing erect the last election issue was joined upon the very point—the sp-
erms to aid the vigour of that tame. (Hear, hear, hear.) If• propriation principle—on which the late member was supposed
that heavy blew must be givt.u, my hand at least will nut unite to have incurred the displeasure of his constituents. The noble
in the stroke. If the cheer of atlv;•rse triumph must be raiSed, lord shook his head; but was not there a witness present in the
our voices at least shall not swell the unholy shout. If the house who could say on what terms he claimed the support of the
pillars of the church and the constitution itself must undergo electors and freemen of Newcastle. (The Chancellor of the Ex-
a shake and a convulsion, then we, seeing no absolute necessity chequer—The freemen !) Yes, the freemen. Was there already
for this injustice, protest against the policy of it, and refuse to a distinct ionao the prejudice of those freemen who had had their
be your accomplices. (Loud cheers.) I move
right of voting confirmed only in the last year ? He maintained
the lords' amendments be now taken Into therefore that
consideration. that this very question of appropriation was proposed by the
Mr. E. DENISON saw no reason for the house giving up the candidate and that he said he would not vote for its principle.
principle which it had embodied in the bill. He (Sir J. Graham) and his noble friend the member for Lan-
Lord SANDON deprecated the rejection of a measure fraught cashire had long been watching the course of events, and there-
with much good to Ireland—a measure which went to remove, fore they were surprised when their eyes were opened to the
many practical grievances that had been long and loudly coins real object which certain parties had in view. On the 25th of
plained of, merely because it did net embrace a principle the June last the lion. and learned member for Kilkenny wrote a
consideration of Which even the hon.' gentleman who spoke last letter addiessed to the people of Great Britain, on the subject
way willing to postpone. until the.period art ived when it could. of the elebes belonging to the Irish churcha. nod in thee letter
be considered in a practical point ere view. Did loin. gentlemen be made the following statement:—"'We -do nut at present de-
opposite mean to say for one moment that the insertion of the mand the glebes for the residence of the pastors whom the
appropriation clause would remedy any practical grievance? t people prefer." They on his (Sir J. Graham's) side of the
Certainly not. Not one of the advocates of that measure, how-
house had previously asked the meaning of the mysterious
ever they might cloak it in public, but would in private admit clause which had placed in the hands of Lord Duncanwon the
they supported it because it would lead to the destruction of pro- whole of the glebei of Ireland, and gave him power to alienate,
testantism in Ireland. "No.") He said yes; such was the
let, or otherwise dispose cif them; but the passage or the letter
language of the press, and such was the language of hon. gen-
of the hon. and learned" member fur Kilkenny which he had
ilemen members of that house. (Hear, hear.) The real in read fully explained the object of that clause—it made the de-
terests of Ireland would be sacrificed to party spirit. (Cheers sign of its framers manifest. Within the last few days the
and counter cheers.) Once more he called on them not to sa- hon. andlearned member for Kilkenny had written in another
letter, also addressed by him to the people of this country, the
renewing sentiments:—" Would you tranquillize Ireland
crifice real benefits to an imaginary point of honour, nor forego
practical advantages in order to maintain the prple of a sup-
positious distribution of an imaginary surplus. (Hear.) follow up this plan—give the glebes, to the value of LW) per
.:vhi Schit
Mr. Hume said that the party spirit of which the noble lord annum, to the pastors of the great acid overwhelming majority
complained was to be found in the ranks of those who opposed
ofi
rtehe, peeftoeprl e
allof
thethesed i s
cpilriinterss.
tthleeyn
hadit hail
aartdLast trans-
the
tnhse-
ministers on this occasion. He supported the bill of the noble Pd
lord (Lord J. Russell) because he considered it a better mea- object was to get endowments for the Roman catholic church,
sure than that which had been sent down from - to transfer the glebes of the protestaut clergy to the Roman
though he confessed that, in his opinion, neither of them,
was catholic priests. (Great cheering from the opposition benches.)
sufficient to meet the wants and demands of the people of Ire-
He wished the people of England to understand this. (Re-
land. (Cheers from the Opposition.) He repeated that nei- newed cheers.) He said let the people of this country, whether
ther bill went far enough ; but of the two he would take that protestants or dissenters—let the voluntaries of Scotland, un-
which was calculated to produce the most good. He begged it, derstand that the question was not one of protestant spoliation,
however, to be understood that, in supporting the bill of the but of Roman catholic endowment, that it was whether they
noble lord, he was not compromising himself not to demand a should take from the ministers of the established religion the
more extensive measure of church reform when time and cir- fair lands they possessed, and give them to the ministers of a
cumstances should make it advisable to do so. (Immense religion for the overthrow of which their forefathers bad bled,
cheering from the Opposition.) What did those cheers amount and which, whether in the field or on the scaffold, they rejoiced
to? Did the hon. gentlemen opposite pretend to say their own and gloried in denouncing. (The right hon. baronet resumed
measure must be a final tine? (Hear.) if so he would at once his seat amidst loud cheers.)
reject it, upon that account. The risible lord's bill he preferred Mr. SHELL thought that the discussions of thirty years, aided
because it was a thousand times betteethan thethill of the hon, by the eloquence of his learned friend (Mr. O'Connell,) had
gentleman opposite, both for a fair distribution of the revenues fixed in the minds of the people the great prieciples on which
of the church and the general amelioration of the condition of their rights rested. The change pervaded all tanks and classes.
the Irish people. The people of Ireland had already begun to There once was a time; and so bowed down was the spirit of
feel a just confidence in the disposition of the present govern- the Irish peasant—that if you smote him he would cower Be-
ment to do them justice and grant them their rights. (" Oh.") Death the blow. Strike him now, and all the majesty of manly
Yes, their rights. To be sure, the noble lord opposite (Lord feeling would' rise in indignant resistance to the insult. His
&mien) said that he granted thus and gratdad that, but he (Mr. Celtic blood would boil as fiercely as that of your own Saxon
Hume) did not want any of the noble lord's grants. He de- temperament; and be would, as if he were a native of your
mantled for the people their riehts. It was the disposition which 1 great and noble land, where the, liberty of every in ,n is
the government had shown to do justice that gave the people of sacred from molestation, feel the spirit that belongs to a
Itreland a moral confidence in,, them. That the government British citizen as fully and as proudly as if from his birth he
had many faults he too welirltoew ; but they might live and had breathed in the pure and vitalizing moral atmosphere of
mend. (Laughtet.) On of their greatest faults, in his opi- that noble and majestic land where each man walks abroad in
nion, was that they weretonstantly preferring their enemies to the consciousness of his personal inviolability, the great chars
their friends. (Cheers and laughter.) He spcke seriously and ter of freedom enrolled upon his forehead, and the great order
feelingly upon this point. (" -Hear, hear," and loud laughter.) of liberty stamped upon his breast. With sixty members in that'
The right lion. heronet had stated that he was opposed attire-
, house, even if they stood alone, unaided by the representatives
ther to the princfp;e of alienation; and if he were so, why did of the Scotch and Bnglish people, they would still triumph. He
he.deem it necessary to go into details? Why did he not take recollected that at one time the West India interests command-
his stand ageiest alienation as he (Mr. Hume) took his stand ed si • xty votes in that house, and they were able to resist by
for alienation
. ' He (Mr. Hume) would have clergymen paid those means the emancipation of the 'West India slaves. But
on the same principle that soldiers and sailors were paid. had they not the strong and earnest sympathy of the Scotch

people of this country? He (Mr. Sheil) did not'know much;
tiowever, there was one fact which he could not help referring
to in answer to the assertion that the people of England were
not is ith them. This was the Peel Parliament, and yet in this
parliament of his own choosing, the right hon. baronet was de-
feated. (Ministerial cheering.) Suppose, then, we go to a
general election, and that the right honourable baronet and
his associates are defeated again, and that there be a ma-
jority sent back to this house to demand such a bill as this again
—in that case how will you act? The noble lord the member
for South Lancashire in.ty be prepared to resist to the death.
But the right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth is too wise
to du so. ( Loud cheering from the ministerial benches.)
Mr. HonGsoN rose, but owing to the noise that prevailed
he was very imperfectly heard in the gallery. He thought that
the question they ought to consider was, whether it was not for
the advantage of the country that a settlement of the Irish
church question should take place, no matter whether or not it
endangered the existence of any administration. The settle-
ment of the question was paramount to auy such consideration.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. D. W. flAtivgy rose amidst cries of " Question" and
" Divide." He would seriously ask whether any one thought
that the practical part of the bill would produce the pacification
of Ireland for any considerable period It was far better that
tie question remained as it was, and no present result would
tie inure favourable for some time, as, by rejecting both parts of
the bill, it would tend to the production of some measure which
would lead to a final settlement on just principles.
Lord STANLEY, at so late an hour, and on a subject, with re-
ference to which he had so frequently addressed the house, even
during the present session, would not trespass upon their pa-
tience. (Cries of ' Question.") He merely wished to state
thereat nature of the question, which had scarcely been touched
upon in the course of the debate. The question was not in
reference to the tithe bill—not as to the amount of church pro-
perty—not whether there was or was not a surplus, or whether
parliament had a right to interfere with the property of the
church. Neither of these was the question, and yet these were
the topics to which those who took part in the debate had prin-
cipally addressed themselves. ( Hear, hear, hear.) The real
question was whether they would accept so much of a measure
as both houses of parliament had agreed, or postpone for
another year—perhaps fur hopeless years—(" No, no," " Hear,
hear")—yes, protract and prottactiug for perhaps hopeless
years a question which, being left unsettled, was so pregnant
with misery, with conflict, and with strife? (Loud cheers.)
Whilst the tithes were paid by the poor, miserable, and wretched
peasantry—whilst this state of things lasted—there would be no
tranquility in Ireland. It was his object, and the object of those
who acted with him, to remedy this evil, and he would implore
of ministers to aid him in this effort. It was in their power to
alter the majority. The votes of ministers alone would do it,
and those votes they would give without even the sacrifice of
their opinions on the abstract principle. (Cries of" Oh, oh,"
from the ministerial benches.) Yes, he repeated, without the
sacrifice of an opinion they might tranquillize Ireland, and free
her from the impending dangers of strife, and misery, and
bloodshed. (Opposition cheers.) A word from the government,
and that desirable result would be achieved. They had the
consent of the lords to the measure which would accomplish this.
It was in their power to carry it into law, and if they did it not
it was their party, and not his, who refused to grant peace to
Ireland. • (Cheers.) His object in rising was not to discuss the
main question, but to put clearly and distinctly before the
house that upon which they were then called upon to decide.
The question to be decided was, not the appropriation clause,
but whether a bill which had been already accepted by both
Houses of Parliament—a bill of real and substantial reform
which had. the concurrence of the Clergy, and would
give satisfaction to a large class in Ireland—should or
should not have their consent. This was the real question;
and they had to decide, on the other hand, whether, for the
sake of introducing an abstract principle, they would refuse to
accept of such a measure, by refusing to sanction the amend-
ments sent down from the other house. (Cheers.) The real
importance of the bill was the opportunity afforded by certain
of its provisions to refer the matters in dispute with respect to
the church to an amicable decision, and more especially by re-
moving the inequality now prevailing in the benefices, and by
restoring tranquillity to Ireland, upon which he set as
high a store as could any gentleman in Parliament. (Loud
cheers.)

Mr. G. F. YOUNG said that in consequence of the altered de-
tails of the bill, independent of the omission of the appropriation
clause, he could not consistently and conscientiously vote for it.
(The hon. member was interrupted byrepeated cries of" Divide,"
which prevented us ascertaining the exact nature of his obser-
vations, but we believe that we have given the purport.)
The house then divided, when there appeared—
Ayes 260
Noes 231
Ministerial majority
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Two o'clock.

LONDON TIMES AND EVENING MAIL. -
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arrives by EXPRESS every 'Morning at Half-past Seven,
and will be on Sale at the Oflice‘ No. 48. Lord-street.
TH E EVENING MAIL three days per week, by-post—
rice 7d.
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L. T. GASKELL, Agent.

ZOOLOGICAL GARDENS.
EXTRAORDINARY FETE
On MoN DA Y and TuEs Y, the Bth and 9th of Aucrtf.
E Proprietor begs leave respectfully to sta,
engaged
Mr. YATES,
r

(st instant.

that he has

the celebrated Manager of the Adelphi Thelfre, who, with his
talented Assistants, it is presumed, will get up an Entertain-
ment quite novel to the inhabitants of Liverpool. and precisely
on the same scale as those which have taken place under Mr.
Yates's superintendence at the Royal Pitville Gardens, at
Cheltenham; Sydney Gardens, Bath • and at Birmingham,
Manchester, and the principal Towns in the Kingdom.

A CONCERT
Will take place in the Gardens. Principal vocalists
Miss BETTS,
Of the Theatre Royal. Drury-lane,
Mr. W. H. WILLIAMS,
One of the first Comic Singers of the day; and others whose
names will be announced in future Advertisements will attend.
Mr. Ykrys will deliver an Address on the occasion, and give
his Recollections of the principal London Actors. A Prosce-
nium will be erected in the Gardens, on which will be repre-
sented the

DELINEATIONS OF' THE PASSIONS,
Embodyinv, a Series of beautiful TABLEAUX VIVANTES,
or Living Pictures, which will be enlivened and enriched by
various coloured Fires, and accompanied by appropriate Music.
The whole Entertainment to conclude with the most splendid
display of _