The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-06-05 00:00:00

of influence ; aye, and he defied Mr. Rathbone to contradict
him ; it was no use to deny it. The alderman then referred

to the previcZdol;s7ajti; Finance Committee, and con-.
trasted them with the opinions now advocated in their name
by the chairman of that committee. He then cited the
opening of Mr. Currie's speech, which, he said, was in its
usual strain, about " serious and undivided attention—im-
portant subject," and so forth, imitating rather-awkwardly
the manner of Mr. Currie, but producing, nevertheless, a
general roar of laughter. He concluded by moving, as an
amendment, " That the council cannot consent to any in-
crease of the rate-payers in the Dock Committee:"
As some time elapsed, and no person rose to second the
amendment, •
Mr. EARLE observed—l did not think any of my political
friends would second this ; they are too much alive to the
thing.

Ar. Alderman FREME at length seconded the amendment,
and said that in so doing this was no new feeling with him.
He had always thought the rate-payers were an ephemeral
body, having not the least interest in the welfare of the town,
and that even the old council, badly constituted as it was,
was much better. He proceeded to animadvert upon the
Finance Committee, for having, as he said, come to a con-
clusion of the proposals, founding his remarks on a misun-
derstanding of what had fallen from Mr. Currie, and when
corrected by that gentleman, and afterwards by the Town-
clerk, he observed that, as he but seldom troubled the coun-
cil, he was entitled to some fair courtesy, and he should not
be kept strictly to the fact. This remark produced another
burst of laughter. He also expressed a wish that the bill
should be delayed a year, as he deemed it improper to come
to a decision on such important matters with breathless haste.
Mr. COGLAN had not made up his mind whether to vote
for or against the amendment, though he confessed that his
prepossessions were in unison with the opinions of Mr.
Earle, and against an increase of the number of rate-payers.
before that point was conceded a strong case ought to be
made out. If a great national measure could not be obtained
without a minor sacrifice, and if this could be made apparent
to him, lie would oppose the amendment. He wanted to
know what it was that had brought the committee, composed
of men of sound minds, to the conclusion that'it was neces-
sary to give up a point which they admitted ought not to be
given up ?
The MAYOR, observed, that perhaps the council would like
to have the propositions of the opponents of the bill read.
Mr. Alderman G. HOLT said that, for the most part, the
feelings of the deputation were like those of the mover and
seconder of the amendment ; but they saw in the committee
a strong feeling in reference to the rate-payers, and found
that the bill was not to be had without some price, some
sacrifice. They had assented to the increase of the number
of the rate-payers with reluctance ; but that was supposed to
be the lowest price for which the bill could be had, and there-
fore it was, after due consideration, done to obtain the bill.
The'rowN-cLEux now read the proposals of the opponents
of .the dock bill, together with the correspondence between
the parliamentary agents. - -
Mr. COGLAN then said that he was quite satisfied; 'he had
not been aware of the modest proposals of the opponents of
the bill.

Mr. RATosoNE said that the persons who made such
monstrous proposals were a party of selfish men who would
thrOw over everything, even the dock dues, to gain their
object. The opposition to the bill was of a political nature ;
that was the whole secret ; and it was a great shame that the
_ _ _

interests of the town should be sacrificed in that way. The
talk about breathless haste was nonsensical; the subject had
been under discussion for the last three or four years—(Mr.
G. Holt—" For half a century")—and it was very well
known that when they went to parliament there was a parcel
of people in Manchester, Runcorn, and other places, that
would come and pounce upon them. Why the Manchester
people were jealous of us he did not know; he might as well
be jealous of his own mouth and throat. There had been
jealousy, too, on the part of the gentlemen of Cheshire,
although it had added 100 per cent. to the value of their
estates. There was a selfish set here also, animated by poli-
tical considerations. Indeed, no question was ever discussed
here, but some, dirty, political meddling came in. He would
never be a party to political considerations on the one side

. .
or the other, when the interests of Liverpool were at stake.
He knew the difficulties that had to be contended with, and
that it was not the best measure that could have been devised ;
but he knew that it was the best that could be obtained, and
he therefore cordially and conscientiously gave them (per-
haps the proposals, or the Dock Committee) his support.
Mr. HonosoN thought that a decision ought not to be ex-
pected until ample time had been given for examination and
consideration. It was most extraordinary to call on the
council for an immediate decision on points of such impor-
tance—points, too, that had not come before several mem-
bers until that morning, when they were announced in the
council. A great deal had been said as to what was to be
given up, but nothing as to what was to be gained. What
was there in the bill? This was surely paying dear for their
whistle, when they were called upon to make such concessions
as had been pfoposed. lie was himself an uninterested
party, and had no objection to dock warehouses, if they were
not to be built by a public body ; but he was strongly opposed
to giving up the rates for the purpose of establishing a mo-
nopoly. He meant, if the amendment of Mr. Earle were
lost, to bring forward one for the withdrawal of the bill.

Mr. Alderman SIIEIL commented upon the inconsistency
displayed, as he said, by the parish authorities. They op-
posed the bill on the ground that the erection of dock ware-
houses by the dock trustees would be injurious to their es-
tate, and yet they sanctioned the exemption of the southern
docks from dues, which, by decreasing the business of the
port, must necessarily injure the warehouse property, and
thus affect the parish rates, whilst the erection of the dock
warehouses would not have that effect, as the same amount
of business must still be done. Besides, the docks and ware-
houses at Harrington would pay no rates. Any man who
told him that he could not see in this a factious spirit of op-
position, must be content to be considered by him as one
destitute of common sense or honesty. He should certainly
vote against the amendment, because he could not see on
what grounds it could be supported. _

Mr. BUSHEEL alluded to'the admission of Mr. Earle with
respect to party power and influence, and then to the con-
demnation by Mr. Rathbone of all party oppositon to what
he considered measures generally beneficial. He (Mr.
Bushell) contended that the rate payers had only taken a
lesson from the council, which, in the electio❑ of aldermen,
had invariably shown itself to be influenced by party cypsi-
deratiions. lie confessed, with others, that the propositions
of the warehouse-owners were monstrous ; but he was less
surprised that they should have asked for the estuary of the
Mersey to be thrown open than that the Dock Committee
should have acceded to the proposal. He could not help
thinking, however, so anxious had the promoters of the bill
shown themselves, that they would almost have consented to
block up the mouth of the river, if they could by so doing
have gained" their warehouses. They had, indeed, almost
done as bad as that; for on the inland bonding question,
where they ought to have been most active, they had been
most apathetic. He should certainly protest, in the strong-
est language, against these extraordinary changes. He stood
there, not an advocate of any interest whatever, but with a
firm determination to do his duty to those who bad elected
him. He cared not for any party, political or mercantile ;
he would use his own judgment, without reference to one or
the other ; and if gentlemen would do so more frequently,
and devote their ability, of which there was much in that
chamber, to the promotion of the public welfare, the coun-
cil would be able to rise from the disgraceful position into
which it had too often fallen, when they suffered party feel-
ings to interfere with their better judgment. He begged to
say that lie could neither vote for the motion nor the amend-
ment.

Mr. Alderman LEATHOM said that the two gentlemen who
had been referred to, Mr. Lowndes, the vestry-clerk, and
Mr. Deane, the clerk of the commissioners of the highways,
came up.to London when the deputation of the Dock Com-
mittee were there. They came to the committee-room, and
said that they had come for the purpose of having some cor-
rections made in the bill. Mr. Lowndes said that there was
no provision for parish rates ; and they (the deputation) said
that there was such a clause. He denied that ; and they
gave to him a copy of the bill, in which he found the very
clause that he had gone to London to ask for"! He expressed
his surprise, and said that he had not seen it in the copy of
the bill he examined. Mr. Deane wanted some such clause
for his estate, and they thought that was not a demand which
ought to be tolerated. The
.two gentlemen then went off,
and they (the deputation) saw no more of them till they came
up to oppose the bill. Mr. L. then went onto say that every
possible attention had been paid to the subject now under
discussion ; the deputation had had constant conferences with
their counsel, and with men in parliament, as to what was
the best course to be pursued, and, considering the most ex-
travagant demands of the opponents of the bill, they finally
resolved to make the proposals which had been read. The
proposal of Mr. Freme to delay the bill for one year, though
sufficiently absurd, was not so bad as one made by a member
of the Dock Committee, who was not a member of the coun-
cil, that it should be delayed for fourteen or fifteen years, in
order that full justice might be done.
Mr. SANDS asked whether ships going into the new docks
would be subject to the town dues, the same as those enter-
ing the present docks ?
Mr. CURRlE.—Certainly.
The MAYOR stated that the parliamentary committee ad-
journed on Friday last, for a week, in order to give the coun-
cil and opponents of the bill an opportunity of consulting to-
gether, and, if possible, coining to an arrangement. The
council meeting had been called on Saturday. If terms were
not come to, the committee would themselves raise the lead-
ing questions in their own way. It was necessary, therefore,
in order that the subject should be fairly before the committee
on Friday next, that the council should that day come to a
decision as to whether they would or not confirm the pro-
posals of the deputation.
Mr. GLADSTONE observed that those gentlemen had argued
on false premises, who supposed that the warehouse owners
were a party to the exemption clauses. They had merely
acted with other parties in order to defeat the bill. With re-
gard to the proposals now before the council, while he be-
lieved that there was, in part, something in them that was
right in itself, he must confess that, looking at the responsible
position which he and every member stood in towards the
public, his own feeling was that they would not be justified
in conceding such changes as were_now proposed, without
consulting the constituencies that sent them there. One
gentleman, who, he must confess, spoke with more freedom
than met with the approval of the deputation, had very can-
didly told them that the bill was not so much a matter of
right or wrong, as abargain—that there was a positive sale in
the question, and that this was the lowest price which would
be accepted. He felt interested in certain of the proposed
changes ; but still he recollected that he should have, in due
time, to deliver an account of his actions to those who had
sent him thither. Now, should he be acting consistently,
should he be actin,* with honesty, if he disposed of any part
of that charge which had been placed in his hands ? He
really thought that this subject was being discussed with
breathless haste. He granted that the measure had for some
time been before the council; but here were modifications
for which he, at least, was not at all prepared. With regard
to the position in which members stand, he must say that he
felt his own position to be an awkward one. As a rate-payer,
It was his interest to diminish the number of representatives
in the Dock Committee sent by the council. But there his
private interest was at variance with his public duty. His
duty to those who sent him there was to see that those con-
cessions were not made without their consent—the consent
of his constituents. They (the council) had no right to part
with one jot of what belonged to others, until they were sent
back to those who sent them there, and had obtained their
decision. However, whether the proposals were right or
wrong, there was no question that if they were conceded it
would be a voluntary act of the council; and they were of
such a nature that they ought to be extorted, not given.
(Hear hear.) They might be right in themselves ; but the
council could not, with common honesty, part with them, and
honesty ought to stand first. After a moment's pause, Mr.
Gladstone said, I heard some gentleman say that he hoped I
would keep honest ; I always was,
Mr. RATIIIIONE—I am very glad you did hear it. Mr.
R. added something else, to the effect, we believe, that he
hoped Mr. Gladstone would not be so ready to accuse others
of dishonesty.
Mr. GLADSTONE--I would ask you. sir, whether I did
accuse any one of dishonesty ?
The MA.vok—No ; 1 most certainly did not hear you do
SO.

Mr. GLADSTONE—I am quite satisfied with that. On an
important subject he was apt, however, like others, to ex-
press himself with warmth ; but he had not accused any mem-
ber of that council of being dishonest, nor had he ever in-
tended to do so. He was stating the nature of the charge
placed in his hands, and he was to be taunted for so doing,
with an attempt to accuse individuals of what he never be-
lieved. He had been called to order by one who, of all others,
ought to be the most silent, if a rigid scrutiny were gone into.
He should not. hesitate to express himself with freedom
while he was there ; and he did not think that while it was
unquestionably for the interest of the rate-payers to obtain
an alteration in the representation of the Dock Committee (of