The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-08-05 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL, STANDARD.

There was another point which should not be overlooked. He
was told that the inhabitants of Liscard lived in such aoprehen-
sirin of danger that many who were nervous were in the habit of
retiring from their homes at night through fear. Were the in.
habitants to be kept in such a continual state of apprehension ?
They ought not only to look at the inhabitants of Liverpool, but
that the magazines did not interfere with the comfort of the
surrounding.inhabitants. Wallasey was a beautiful situation
for the erection of villas and as a watering place, but, owing to
the Vicinage of these magazines,. people would not go there. If
they could be removed, without injury to the trade of the port
they_oUght to accomplish it, both for the purposes of humanity,
from considerations of property, and for the safety of the town
of Liverpool. He was entirely of opinion that no further steps
shOuld be taken in this buSiness at present.
The Ma von was afraid that if no further steps were taken on
the subject it would not answer the object of the petitioners.
' Mr.' Councillor Coonais' had been asked to whom.the pros
perty belonged, whether the council had the.power of making
the alterations? He understood that the land belonged to
them. Was that true?
The Maroti.—ln reversion.
Mr. Coosa N.—And the buildings also?
The Maroa.—The reversion only. The town-clerk stated
that the lesees were so numerous and it, was so uncertain where
they were to be found that, at one time when it was in contem-
plation to buy up the leases, it was considered that nothing less
than an act of parliament could enable them to do it.
Mr. Councillor COGLAN thought that men might as well be
killed outright as frightened to death, and if the inhabitants
around the Magazines were in such a feverish state of anxiety
it was incumbent on them to consider every means to abate
their fears. It was not quite certain that the plan recommended
by the deputation of the inhabitants which had waited upon the
committee, to have, floating vessels for the magazines, was the
most eligible, as, during, some great storm the vessels might
get removed and be floated into the immediate neighbourhood
of the town. He certainly concurred in the prayer of the memo-.
rial, that the magazines ought to be, removed. Accidents
might occur; they had known magazines blow up ; and what
had happened might happen again. It was possible that an in-
cendiary might fire them. If any accident should occur, they
would be dismayed to recollect that they had neglected an im-
portant duty. It did not appear to him so great a point that
they should have powder magazines at Wallasey. No difficulty
could occur in having the magazines on Hilbre Island. He
thought that a committee should be appointed to enquire into
this subject and to turn their attention not merely to the erec-
tion of fit magazines but to find the most eligible site for them,
The inhabitants who had signed the memorial were numerous
and were very respectable, and not likely to take this proceed-
ing from the common feeling of self interest, for the purpose of
improving their property. (" Hear," and a laugh.)
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN thought the fears of. the inhabi-
tants of Wallasey were well grounded. A dreadful explosion
had occurred during the last year in Leeds. 1301bs.a. powder
only_'had exploded, and it was in two diffarent parcels, which
'did not explOde simultaneously, but, the shock watilelt at a
distance of tiro; miles, the. gals, in a, neighhogriug mill
,
'were instantly extinguished, a large ,clitinney.n.eas• smihristedso,
that it was thought dangerous, and had to Aie,takeurritsysai, five
persons had been killed; some others injured, and,two houses.
reduced to a mass of ruins. This was producesl fiysl3olbS. of
gunpowder, what must be the danger,frorn the immense:quantity
contained in the magazine. He was rather surpriaed,fo hear the
cheers of the council at the statetnent that the petitioners were
influenced by personal considerations
,ol.preßegt- riWas not
that a proper consideration ? Ought they notto4u.ke into con-
sideration this nuisance, even it it were not worse than an in-
jury of property. That was of itself important, and they were
bound to attend to the petition on that ground even if there were
no danger to life. Property was very considerably deteriorated
in value, and persons in the neighbourhood lived in a con-
tinued state of apprehension ; he therefore urged on the council
by all possible means to abate this nuisance.
Mr. Alderman LEATHOM said, as chairman of the finance
committee, he might be expected to say something on this Sub-
ject. Considerable attention had been paid to it. The com-
mittee hid met frequently on the subject, and he would claim
for them the character of possessing as much of the feelings of
humanity as any of the gentlemen who had spoken. When the
deputation had called the other day on the finance committee,
they had various projects for a remedy. One of the projects
was ttS have floating magazines, to have one near the entrance
of the river, another to have one near Frodsham, and another
to have one on the shore. They were told in reply, that to have
a floating magazine near the entrance of the river would be a
nuisance • there was a coal depot there, which had been found
a great'nuisance, and it was going to be ordered to be removed
on that account. It was stated that it might be painted white,
and notice 'given for vessels and steamers not to pass near it.
How such 'an order could be enforced he could not understand,'
As to mooring one near Frodsham, it was inaccessible fur more
than half tide and the magazines, and vessels going there would
have to remain on the sand when the tide went out tearing
themselves to pieces. If they were removed to the shore, would
the inhabitants of any part of the river consent to it. Would
the inhabitants of Toxteth-park, or, Bootle, or Woodside, or
Eastham consent to it? It was impossible. They spoke of the
North West buoy. The light ship at Formby had broken two
very strong and superior chains, which was but a small vessel,
and if placed there the probability was, that it would break
adrift, and perhaps float up to the town. Hilbre Island was
quite dry on one side at low water, therefore vessels going in
there to take in gunpowder would have to lay on the sand, and
run the risk of being greatly injured. Mr. Smith spoke of 26
feet water on one side of the island; it was on the Dee side,
where it was very rocky and Perpendicular. It had been sur-
veyed the last week for another purpose, and it had been pro-
posed to put a fence there, when it was stated that there was no
necessity, as on that side it was perfectly inaccessible, and that
was where Mr. Smith said there was such a depth of water.
The intention of the committee was to reconstruct the present
magazines, to sink them to a certain depth in the *round, and
rise a mound of earth betwixt each building, so that if an explo-
sion took place it might be thrown upwards, and not do much
injury. There was much ground near it, and it was proposed
to plant trees there, and have proper arrangements in having
the powder carted out in proper carts. The corporation had
also a right of shore a little to the south of this, and it was pro-
posed to cut a road right through the mound of earth, and have
a private cart road. He believed these were the improvernents
that were to be made. As to the project of lemovin,, the ma-
gazines the greatest difficulty would be experienced; they could
not be removed without an act of Parliament. He thought
that to appoint another committee would be to declare that the
'present was committee incompetant, and in effect dissolve them.
( Hear.) With respect to private property he believed that
purchases had been made in the neighbr,urhood of the maga-
zines by a joint stock company, with an intention to make a
profit; therefore if they could- get the nuisance removed the
property would be enhanced in value very materially, and that
was the principal object of the application which had been
made. (Hear.)
Mr. Councillor BOLTON said that in addition to what had
been observed, they were a trading community. It was desira-
ble, no doubt, to abate all nuisances as soap manufactories, vet
they were allowed because of' benefit to the community. The
manufacture of gunpowder might be dangerous, but did they
wish to exclude its importation and exportation. As a branch
of trade it was desirable, and there was a necessity of having a
convenient deptlt. The dangers appeared to him to be una-
voidable dangers; and, they must recollect, that persons had
erected property around this nuisance' with all its dangers, it
had not been placed amongstthem, they had come to the nuis-
ance. It would be au injustice to remove it tosthe neighbour-
hood of any other property. A necessity existed for the maga-
zines, as a branch of trade the prosperity of the town depending
upon it. He knew of no place se convenient as the present
site, with the improvements that had been suggested that the
buildings should be constructed in the best possible manner for
the prevention of accidents. He thought that the nuisance was
unavoidable and must be submitted to. (Hear.)
Mr. Councillor E. SMITH, in explanation, thought Hilbre
Island was not inaccessible to boats, and it was not customary
to lay the ships close to, they were frequently a quarter of a
guile off.
Mr. Councillor SHIEL thought, that with any degree of con-
sistency and regard for their own characters, they could not
refuse to appoint a committee. They were told that the ques-
tion was surrounded with difficulties, and every man acquainted
with the subject must be acquainted with that fact, and for that
very reason was it necessary to have a committee to obtain in-
formation on a question of so much importance. The danger
of the present magazines must be apparent to every person; it
was disgraceful to 'see. The question involved the lives of a
very large portion of people. There could not be a greater
proof of the providence of the Altnightythan that these magazines
had remained in .that situation so long without accident. 'He
was sorry to hear an argument used on the opposite side, that
the interests of the town were concerned in their remaining; so
far as that argument went they were on equal terms for the
interests of the inhabitants in the neighbourhood of the maga-
zines were concerned; but they added, " our liveti are endan-
gered " What could they say in opposition to that " that their
trade might be injured!" He was extremely surprised to hear
gentlemen applauding such a sentiment. He had much plea-
sure in supporting Mr. Rathbone's motion,
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE, as chairman of the sub-committee,
fully concurred in what Mr. Shiel had said. They should not
allow the magazines to remain in their present state one mo-
ment longer than they could help. He could not see that there
could be any objection whatever's° ascertain if any more eligi-
ble site could be found. Ile should feel a satisfaction if his
opinion could be done away with, that a more eligible site could
not be fixed on. He should consider it no personal affront to
himself if they came to a different decision to what he hhd done.
He would willingly suspend the decision of the committee for a
limited time if the committee could find a more fitting site. If
not shortly found,.he hoped the magazines would not be allowed
to remain as they were. In this respect he could not concur
with the petition of the inhabitantS of Wallasey, to leave them
in their present state, and for that roman have their soon re-
moved.

Mr. Alderman EVANS would recommend gentlemen who
pok it upon themselves to cast reflections upon the moral feel-
ngs of gentlemen in the Council to take a case where they could
catch the Council more decidedly- wrong. It was extremely.
odd that it was only since the late Mania for speculating, and
the great rise of land on'the other side,that the inhabitants had
found this nuisance out. (Hear ) It appeared to him to arise
from men who had bought land at a magazine price. If they
looked at the interests at stake, what were they? Twenty or
thirty houses. Was it material that these houses were affected.
TLey knew that Liverpool would not lose those inhabitants they
would go elsewhere. As to these new-born alarms about maga-
zines, he had lived in a fortified town where he believed there
were plenty of nervous ladies—in Quebec, for instance, but he
never heard of any person expressing apprehension. It was
money that was at the bottom and nothing else. ( Hear.) These
were new-born tremors entirely. He would say, that they
wanted no committee, it had been clearly ascertained that there
was no better situation. Gunpowder was the principle article
of exchange for palm oil, (hear,) and palm oil was the only
means of civilizing Africa. (Hear.) He would rather give those
respectable men all they could hope to gain by the speculation,
and buy them nut and keep the magazines there. Let them
look at all the towns in the world wherever the possession of
security was required, they did not hesitate to pull down the
suburbs and make a waste around; and if these magazines were
necessary to Liverpool, could not they make a little waste
around. But parties had gone and built these houses there;
he wished they would make him a good bargain, and he would
go and live there at the very walls. They knew it was reduced
to an absolute certainty that no accident could happen in pow-
der-magazines, excepting a mere possibility as .of the sky
falling.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE HEYWORTH thought the inhabit-
ants were not justified in complaining, for they bad placed
themselves in that position: He concurred in the propriety of
appointing a committee to inquire into the case.
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE, in reply, thought this question
might have been agitated without the temper which had been
called forth ; it might have been agitated without imputing un-
worthy motives to any party. He had no property there, and
he brought the question forward merely as one of importance to
the town of Liverpool. As to those twenty or thirty houses,
they contained 500 or 600 inhabitants, and he was nut for send-
ing them all to their account in a hurry, thinking that they
might do better without them. And, if gentlemen had bought
land on speculation there, were they not authorised in doing it?
Had they not the statement of the Dist Council that these.maga-
zines should he removed,, whtelt was sufficient ground on which
to calculate that they would. -He'hoped the Council would not
impute unworthy motives to gentlemen without any grounds for

so doing. The resolution was, " That the memorial of the in •
habitants of Wallasey be referred hack to a Cominittee. with
instructions, to report on sotne secure place for the Magazines,
. and that-the- committee do consist of the following gentlemen.
Mr. Blackburn, Mr. M'Gregor, Mr. Hornbv, and Mr. Birch."
Mr. Councillor II ENRY WRENCE-Witii a limitation to he
added that the finance committee suspend their decision only
for a certain time, as it was important that the Magazines should
not be left a day longer in their present state than could be
avoided.

it was agreed that the report of the committee should be
brought in by the next monthly council.
The resolution with this alteration was then put to the vote
and carried by a majority of 36 to:12. The following is a list
of the division :—for Mr. Rathbone's amendment,—Messrs. S.
Hope, Horsfall, Sheil, E. Smith, Thornely, Bowdon, M•Gre-.
gor, H. Holmes, L. Hevworth, Mellor, Walmsley, Birch, Bid-
ton, Wool!right, Bright, H. Hornhy, Rathbone, Maxwell,
H. Lawrence, Lassell, T. Holt, Carson, Morecroft, Blackburn,
Coglan, Alison, G. Holt, Jordan, Duncan, Blain, Moon, Bulley,
Barclay, Robinson, Jones, and the Mayor.
Against the amendment,—Messrs. J. Holmes, Thornhill,
Harvey, Roskell, Sanders, Tayleur, Evans, Freme, Stuart,
Booth, Leathom, and Benn.
The following gentlemen were then appointed on the com-
mittee; Messrs. Blackburn, Mellor, Morecroft, M‘Gregor,
Hornby, and Dr. Carson.
Several gentlemen were applied to who refused to make a
seventh, urging want of tune, &c. At length, after much dis-
cussion

Mr. Alderman EVANS wished to inquire if the council bad
not the power of compelling gentlemen to be on committees.'
The MAYOR replied certainly, and called on Mr. Lea thorn
who had repeatedly declined owiug to his being chairman of
the finance committee, and already concurring in the conclu-
sion of that committee. •
Mr. LEATHONI said if obliged to serve he should call on Mr.
liathbone who had declined for want of time.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY thought though the council had the
pow to compel gentlemen to serve on committees, yet in com-
mon courtesy, they ought not to be compelled against their in-
clination.
Mr. Barclay was then nominated and made the seventh mem-
ber of the committee.

Mr• Councillor SANDARS moved "that it might be an in-
struction to the committee to inquire into the value of property
a mile round the Magazines during the last fifty years, and
want would be the value of the property if the magazines were
removed!'

Mr. Councillor. RATH noNE suggested as an amendment that
the surveyor should make the report.
Mr. Alderman ':VANS seconded the resolution with a recom-
mendation that the time should be shortened to thirty years
which was acceded to.
Mr. Councillor MAXWELL wished to know the objectof this,
as it would be attended with great expense.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON thought it would be quite sufficient to
ascertain he present value.
M!,,Councillor SANDAUS differed from Mr. Bolton: Parties
11,44,1?onght.ground within a quarter of a mile of these maga-
Zings fOr an old song, with all its dangers, and if they could
Succeedin,getting these dangers removed they would obtain a
blast enormous per centage.
Mr. Councillor SHELL wished to inquire if Mr. 'Sandars's
"mile" was to extend.also across the river. (Laughter.)
Mr: Councillor BLACKBURN said, such a report, if made;
could only be conjecture. How could they give a report as to
the value of property on the removal of the magazines—they
could only give an opinion.
The MA roa.—Certainly ; and they could report their opinion.
After some further discussion a division was come to on the
resolution, when there appeared, for the resolution 22; against
it 19.

• FOr, the motion—Messrs. J. Holmes, Horsfall, Thornhill, E.
Harvey, Rawdon, H. Holmes, L. Hevworth, Mellor, Walms•
leV; Birch, "Woo!fright, H. Lawrence, Roskell, Sandal-8, Jordan,
EVaas, Blain, Moon, Freme, Robinson, Leaf hom,and the Mayor.
Against the motion—Messrs. Shea, Bolton. Bright. H. Horn-
by, Rathbone, Maxwell, Lassell, Holt, Carson, Moreeroft,
Blackburn, Coglan, Alison, G. Holt, Duncan, Bulley, Barclay,
Booth, and Jones.

THE CHURCH QUESTION.
Mr. Councillor RA THBONE would first ask a question whether
those bills of the churches had been paid, as well as passed the
committee ?
Mr. Councillor SHEIL.—They have.
Mr. CouncillOr RATHBONE then would move this instruction
to the finance committee," that no payment be made till a report
on the church question be made.'.' He had felt, as a dissenter
from the church, that it was one which had better be left in the
hands of churchmen; and he had shown,by his conduct that he
bad leaned to the liberal side. But he felt a necessity now to adopt
an opposite conduct. 'When he sa w placards cautioning the public
against sending their children to the corporation schools, having
the names of the Rev. Messrs. Gladwin and Wray attached,.
whilst they at the same time were receiving payment from the
corporation funds; he did think it a most indecent proceeding.
When he saw the Rev. Charles Lawrence preaching against
those schools—

Mr Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE.-4 beg leave to state that
I was present at the time, and he never preached against the
schools.
Mr. Councillor 11 AziirioNE.—l believe he did one evening by
inuendo allude to those schools and preach against them.
Mr. Councillor LA W ENCE.—I am alluding to last Sunday,
and my remark applies only to then.
Mr. Councillor HA THRONE believed he bad preached against
those schools, and he did think it was extiernely indecorous
that those men who were supported by the corporation funds
should be preaching against these schools, and he did object to
making them any further payments which the law did not cum-
pel them to make. He felt It necessary to state so much in ex-
planation of the course that he had formerly adopted, and which
'he wished to pursue. And he must take this opportunity of
contradicting a falsehood which was circulated regarding those
schools, that the Bible was excluded. He had himself read the
Bible to the children in the north schools, and he had no doubt
but that it was also read in the south schools. If after that con-
tradiction it was so reported again, he must say it was a most dar-
ing falsehood. He would tell theni fairly that he had only wanted
a text to preach open that day to let it be publicly known what
was done out of doors, that if people, not from a feeling of Chris-
tianity, will not do what is right,- they may be obliged to see the
deformity of their doings and abstain from them.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE HEYWOOD believed he might
state that the reports which had gone abroad of the bible not
being allowed in the schools was a perverse falsehood. He
thought it had 'been so circulated by people fur pecuniary re-
ward.

The MAW/rt.—That remark is a little too general. Mr. Rath-
bone had stated what he had done to express his indignant
opinion of certain reports out of doors. He thought they might
all have their opinions on that conduct, but at the same time he
thought they should all agree that a period of excitement, like
the present, was more likely to subside by not using accrimo-
nious remarks from time to time. (Hear.) And that the
council would feel a self-satisfaction in performing their duty
without turning to the right or to the left. He woul,l, therefore,
beg that the council would not prolong these discussions in the
council from time to time by such remarks. There were per-
sons ou both sides of very pure intentions, and he thought the
subject had better be left to the softening influence of time, and
he did think that if they did net set the example this accrimony
would nut cease in others. The committee of inquiry on the
legal proceedings regarding the churches. would report as soon
as possible, and he thought if Mr. Rathboue was insured of that
that he would withdraw his resolution, and not visit innocent
parties with punishment. (Loud applause.)
Mr. Councillor RaTneoNE, with the permission of the se-
conder, at the request of the Mayor, would withdraw the reso-
lution, after what he had stated. But, in vindication of himself,
if he appeared warm he had to state, that the people were throw-
ing brick-bats at the children who went to these schools when
they were playing at marbles, and that he himself had been
constantly subjected to abuse. So far as the abuse went—that
for it (snapping his fingers)—but the brick-bats might kill the.
children. He thought after this explanation the council would
not say that he had done wrong.
The MAYOR.—The police will repress the nuisance.
The finance committee report, with the exception of the part
relating to the magazines, was then confirmed.

LEASES COMMITTEE.
Several applications were made for the renewal of leases.—
Report confirmed.