The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-12-04 00:00:00

unces ?

The MAYOR replied in the negative.
Mr. D. HODGSON thought the present subject a much
wider one than they had time on that occasion to investigate.
He believed it would be admitted that the magistrates ought
to be made acquainted with what was passing in the Borough
Prison, and yet, though he was one of its visiting magi-
strates, he know nothing of what bad been going on there
before the court of justices in the present case. (Hear, hear.)
It appeared manifest, under these circumstances, that some
persons in authority had taken upon themselves the power of
proceeding with this imprtant subject without consulting
others clothed with equal authority.
The MAYOR explained. Captain Williams, the inspector
of prisons, had been in Liverpool for many weeks, and, upon
his representations, the inquiry took place before si x magi-
strates and three visiting justices. The whole of t. .e pro-
ceedings were brought before the justices on last Saturday,
so that it was done in a manner by means of which every
magistrate had an opportunity of getting the information

required.
Mr. HonosoN was glad of having received this informa-
as he was from home on Saturday he did not re-
ceive the note. He was surprised, however, to find that a
portion of the magistracy had taken it on themselves to in-
quire into this matter, for it was one in which he (Mr. H.)
was much interested, having been opposed to one of the ap-
pointments as originally made. The general question in this
case was one that affected the whole of the borough magis-
tracy in their individual as well as their collective capacity ;
and he would say, that calling them together on Saturday,
the last day of the month, and telling them of what had been
previously done, when they should have been called together
in the first instance, was a very equivocal and unsatisfactory

lion, bt

. _
course to adopt. (Hear, hear.)
The TOWN-CLERK said that the justices who commenced
and carried on this inquiry consisted of the Gaol Finance Com-
mittee and the visiting justices, and that in the routine of
their duty they prosecuted it, and made their report to a ge-
neral meeting of the magistrates on Saturday last.
Mr. EARLE saw, shortly before this discussion took place,
that there was some movement in the conservative camp.
(A laugh.) He saw two of them laying their heads together,
and Mr. George Lawrence, who seemed to be their leader,
had put his head in among them. (Continued laughter, and
cries of " No, no," from the conseriatives-) _ But the fact
was, that Mr. Hodgson had made the same complaint the
day before that he did on that occasion, and then received
the same answer that the Town-clerk had given him now.

Mr. HODGSON—What ! me ?
Mr. EAGLE—Yes, you.
Mr. HODGSON—I challenge you to the proof of who told

Mr. EARLE—It was Mr. Hugh Hornby.
Mr. HORNBY rose amid much uproar and confusion to
explain. He said that he had some conversation with Mr.
Hodgson the day previous, when that gentleman made the
same complaint to him that he had just done to the council.
He (Mr. H.) then told him that the act of parliament di-
rected the visiting justices to be summoned to assist the
Gaol Committee in their inquiry. If it was to this Mr.
Earle alluded, this was all that took place between him and
Mr. Hodgson.
Mr. EARLE said it was precisely to that conversation that
he alluded.
Mr. HoncsoN *did not think Mr. Hornby's explanation
bore out Mr. Earle's original statement, for he was one of
the visiting magistrates of the gaol, and he never was in-
formed of the inquiry.
Mr. EARLE said that he also was one of them, but then
he hadn't the vanity to suppose that no inquiry could go on
without him. (A laugh.)
Mr. H ORNBY observed that the magistrates who under-
took this inquiry (one that was of a most difficult and pain-
ful nature) acted under the advice of the clerk of the peace,
who told them that they were the proper committee to under-
take the duty. If, then, they bad acted improperly, it was
for the town clerk to explain how that had occurred. (Hear.)
Sir J. WALMSLEY apprehended that the duty had been
undertaken by the properly-constituted committee. They
were the party who had to decide on all matters relative
to the management of the gaol, the regulation of the officers,
and the financial concerns. He (Sir Joshua) was one of them,
and he thought the council were indebted to them for the
labour they underwent and the patience they manifested in
prosecuting so disagreeable an inquiry as they bad been forced
into for the last four, five, or six weeks. (Hear.) Upon the
written statement of Mr. Williams, the inspector, certain cir-
cumstances were brought before them into which they in-
quired, and their minutes of the communications, prelimi-
nary and general examinations, extended over the space of
462 brief sheets, containing 2.100 folios, so that he thought
they were entitled to the thanks, rather than the censure, of
the council for the pains they have taken. He believed that
it would always be found that a small committee could ma-
nage matters of this kind better than a large one ; and he felt
that Mr. Hodgson ought to be the last person to make a com-
plaint of this kind, for he had it in his power to satisfy him-
self on every point by reading the minutes of the evidence.
It was rather too much for that gentleman to absent himself
and find fault with those who attended, when they deserved
his thanks rather than his reprehension.
Mr. H ODGSON—I deny the assertion.
Sir JOSHUA WALMSLEY—I don't know what you deny.
Mr. HODGSON.- -I haven't refused to attend.
Sir J. WALMSLEY—I don't know what you deny. You
told the council before you didn't attend. (No, no.) Oh !
lam right. He told you that when they were called together
to come to a decision, he didn't attend.
Mr. HODGSON—Because I was out of town.
Sir J. WALMSLEY—Very well. Then why deny what I
stated ?
Mr. HODGSON.—What had by being out of town on Satur-
day last, to do with the previous meetings? Why hadn't I
the proper notice on the subject?
Sir J. WALMSLEY—They attended every Tuesday, and the
whole of the information relative to the gaol came before the
Finance Committee.
Mr. CASE—Is Mr. Hodgson on the Gaol Finance Com-
mittee ?

Sir J. WALMSLEY—NO.
Mr. HonGsoN--Why did they take up the subject at all?
Sir J. WALMSLEY—Because they thought it their duty so
to do ; and now that they have concluded it, they deserve the
thanks of those who remained away for the labour they un-
derwent.
Mr. SANDS said it appeared to have been made the subject
of discussion, inasmuch as the law-adviser of the corporation
had been consulted about the propriety and manner of car-
rying on the investigation.
Mr. H. HOENBY explained, and said it was not in conse-
quence of any doubt expressed by the magistrates that the
town-clerk had been consulted.
Mr. ROBINSON said it appeared manifest that those who
investigated the matter had laboured long and produced no-
thing. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) There was a mysterious
charge hanging over the chaplain and governor, which unless
explained he would oppose the passing of the report.
The TOWN-CLERK here explained the law with regard to
visiting justices and their duties; after which,
The MAYOR said that since the 9th of November he had
been a member of the Gaol Committee in right of his office,
but as the present inquiry was going on before that period, he
declined to be on it, being ignorant of the previous part of the
investigation.
Mr. TOULMIN asked whether there was any objection to
lay the charges against Dr. Buck before the council, as it
appeared he took the hint and retired beforehand ?
Sir J. WALMSLEY asked seriously whether the council
would like to hear all that took place ? (No, no.) After the
committee had stated in their report that the chaplain was
unable to discharge the duties of the office by reason of his
infirmities, he asked again, would the council think it neces-
sary to go into particulars ? (Loud cries of " No, no.")
Could the committee have discharged their task in a more
delicate manner towards a clergyman, that in giving that as
their opinion ? (Hear, hear.) And here he would say, that
nothing affecting his moral character had, in his (Sir Joshua's)
opinion. been in any degree substantiated against him. (Hear)
Mr, BIRKETT would be sorry to bring Dr. Buck forward,
but as he heard the day before that that gentleman intended
to bring the whole matter before the House of Commons, he
(Mr. B.) thought they might as well be put in possession of
the particulars as well now as hereafter. He understood, for
he had not seen it, that the doctor had made an ingenious
defence.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE suggested that as both the chaplain and
the governor claimed compensation, the case should go be-
fore a committee to decide on their merits.
' The ToviN.CLERK thought the course suggested the legal
one to adopt.
Mr. J. SMITH would not vote for any retiring allowance
to the parties, until he had first been put in possession of
the facts.

The MAYOR suggested that the subject be referred to the
Finance Committee.
Mr. BusuzLL objected to any reference being made to the
Finance Committee, as there were magistrates on it, and as it
would be more desirable to have the merits of the parties de-
cided by those who had not as yet formed their opinions on
the case.
Mr. H. HORNBY thought the council ought to adopt Mr.
Bushell's suggestion.
The MAYOR said there were magistrates on all the com-
mittees.
Mr. BUSHELL accordingly suggested that a special com-
mittee should be appointed for the purpose.
Mr. EVANS asked what such a committee would have to
inquire into, the matter being closed, and a discharge having
been obtained from the hands of the parties themselves?
The only question remaining for decision was, whether they
were to get anything, and how much : and he thought that
question might be left to the Finance Committee to deter-
mine.
___ _

Mr. COGLAN differed in opinion with Mr. Evans, and
thought there should be some investigation before any sti-
pend were granted to them out of the public money.
Mc. BUSHELL proposed that it be referred to a special
committee.

Mr. J. SMITH seconded the proposition.
Mr. COGLAN opposed it, because the magistrates who in-
vestigated the case had more information concerning it than
any other committee could possibly have, and proposed that
it be referred to the Finance Committee.
Mr. BRIGHT seconded the proposition.
The report having been then received upon the motion of
Sir Joshua Walmsley, the question was taken on Mr. Cog-
lan's, amendment, which was carried by a majority of twelve,
the numbers being—For it, 35; against it, 23; majority, 12.
The following are the names of the gentlemen who voted
in the division:—

For the amendment -- Messrs. J. Holmes, G. Quayle,
Isaac Holmes, R. Houghton, W. Thornhill, T. Case, H. R.
Sanbach, H. Holmes, Sir J. Walmsley, Messrs. Aikin,
Woollright, R. Bright, J. Priestley, R. V. Yates, T. More.
croft, T. Coglan, R. Jones, Jun. W. Slater, G. H. Lawrence,
W. M`Kee, F. Jordan, J. Platt,, D. Mather, R. Roskell, T.
Leathom, G. Holt, R. Benn, W. Earle, J. Moon, E. Evans,
T. Barclay, T. Bulley, T. Holt, W. P. Freme, and the Mayor.
Against it—Messrs. D. Hodgson, H. Copeland, G. Wright,
R. B. B. H. Blundell J. Mellor T. Sands, H. Hornby, T.
Toulmin, J. Lawrence, T. Robinson, J. Cooper, H. Law-
rence, J. N. Wood, W. Birkett, R. Gladstone, C.. Bushell,
J. Procter, R. Rigby, J. Kilshaw, J. Smith, R. Harbord,
A. Smith, jun., and R. Shiel.

M. G,

?HS APPOINTIONT OP A. NeW CRAPLAIN.
H. LAWRENCE moved "That the Mayor bo in.
ted to communicate to the bishop the vacancy, that has
occurred in the chaplaucy, and to request his lordship will
recommend to the council a proper person to be appointed
by the council as a successor to Dr. Buck." He said he was
induced to make this motion in consequence of his not hay-
ing confidence in the magistrates making a proper appoint-
ment to the office.

Tne Ma.roft said the motion could not be entertained

without notice of it being tint given.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE thought the suggestion a valuable one.
Mr. EVANS thought that the magistrates living in Liver-
pool, and knowing the clergymen, were far better judges
than any bishop in the neighbourhood was likely ever to be.
He confessed he knew not where the system would stop;
but he supposed it was the intention of one party to denude
the council of all its honours and patronage, and give it into
the hands of a member of its borough. (Laughter, and cries
of "No, no.") He lielieved that that was at the bottom

of everything.
Mr. BUSHELL thought the suggestion a valuable one, and
that it should have been received in a proper spirit.
Mr. COGLAN asked whether the sanction of the bishop
was essentially necessary to the appointment of a chaplain?
The TOWN-CLERK replied, when the council nominated it
remained with the bishop to license the clergyman.
Mr. COGLAN thought it would be a strange stretch of
power if the council were to vest an appointment like the
present in the hands of an ecclesiastical, authority that was
forminable enough already without making it more so by ad-
ventitious aids.
Mr. EART.E.thought the magistrates as good judges of the
characters of clergymen—for they brought certificates of
character always with them in cases like the present—as any
bishop. He did not look on a bishop to be an extraordinary
man. (A laugh.) He did not look on him as coming in a
direct line from the fathers of old (renewed laughter), par-
ticularly when he saw him declaring that he was horror-
stricken at seeing souls perishing, while he himself was
drawing twelve thousand pounds a-year. (Order.) He
was in order, he was in order, for the subject of bishops had
been introduced. He was a churchman, but he was not
bound to approve of every act of every bishop, nor he
would'nt do it. (Ironical laughter.)
Mr. CASE thought they would be committing an act of
felo de se, if they were to give up appointments of this kind
to any bishop.
Mr. HA KIJORD and Mr. HoncsoN both supported Mr.
Lawrence's motion, and argued that it was unseemly that a
body of magistrates professing unitarian and other heterodox
views, should arrogate to themselves the right of appointing
a church of England minister, particularly when they be-
lieved the religious opinions of that minister to be erroneous.
Mr. AIKIN believed the present discussion was got up on
1 the other side, for the purpose of having another fling at the

magistracy.
Mr. BUSHELL was not aware till then that Mr. Aikin was
the champion of the magistracy ; but he would say, that the
charge he had brought against them, and which it would have
been wet! if Mr. Aikin had let rest, was never denied by any
one of them up to the present moment. . (Loud cries of
"hear, hear.")
Mr. AIKIN said, at the time it was made it received the
answer it deserved—(a shout of laughter).
Sir J. WALMSLEY then moved—
" That the subject of the appointment of a governor of the
Borough Prison, in the place of Mr. William Batcheldor,
who has tendered his resignation, and the appointment of a
chaplain in the place of the Rev. J. Buck, D.C.L., whose
resignation is accepted. be referred to the Gaol Committee,
to direct the proper advertisements, and to receive, consider,
and report upon the applications and testimonials of candi-
dates to the council ; and that Mr. Batcheldor's resignation
be not accepted until the council shall decide upon a new ap-
pointment in his place."
Mr. H. HORNBY seconded the motion.
A division was then taken on Mr. Lawrence's amendment,
when it was lost by a majority of 13, the numbers being
for the motion 21 ; against it 34.
The following are the names of the gentlemen who voted
on the division :
For the motion :—Messrs. D. Hodgson, H. R. Sandbach,
H. Copeland, R. B. B. H. Blundell, T. Sands, T. Toulmin,
J. Lawrence, T. Robinson, J. Cooper, H. Lawredce, J. N.
Wood, W. Birkett, R. Gladstone, C. Bushell, J. Proctor, J.
Kilsbaw, R. Rigby, R. Jones, jun., G. H. Lawrence, R.
Harbord, and A. Smith, jun.
Against it :—J. Holmes, G. Quayle, I. Holmes, R.
Houghton, W. Thornhill, T. Case, G. Wright, H. Holmes,
J. Mellor, J. Walmsley, J. Aikin, J. Woollright, R.
Bright, J. Priestley, H. Hornby, R. V. Yates, T. More-
croft, T. Coglan, W. Slater, J. Smith, W. WlCee, J. Platt,
D. Mather, R. Sheil, J. Hornby, R. Roskell, T. Leathorn,
G. Holt, W. Earle, J. Moon, E. Evans, .I'. B. Barclay, W.
P. Freme, and the Mayor.
THE MAYOR'S COMMUNICATIONS.
The MAYOR said he had received two communications—
one from Miss Mathewson, of Rodney-street, praying for a
reduction in her rent, and the other from a commissioner of
the Court of Requests, calling for the dismissal of one of his
under officers.
They were both referred to the proper committees.
THE COURT OF REQUESTS.
Mr. HARBORD complained of a grievance suitors laboured
under in this court, inasmuch as when plaintiffs were non-
suited the defendant was compelled to pay court charges.
The TOWN-CLERK promised to look to the law upon the
subject, and to report upon it to the next council.
ENLARGING THE COUNCIL CHAMBER.
Mr. G. HOLT then moved " That the surveyor be re-
quested, without delay, to report upon the practicability of
enlarging the council-chamber ; and also upon the subject of
a better system of ventilation, together with the cost thereof;
and also for providing another place for the business of the
council during such alteration."
Mr. H. LAWRENCE seconded the motion, and, after a few
observations, it was carried.

THE STANDING ORDERS.
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK was about to read the stand-
ing orders, when
Mr. HODGSON moved an adjournment.
The MAYOR put the question, and declared it to be lost.
In the midst of,some disorder, consequent upon several
members retiring from the chamber. •
Mr. COOPER moved the adoption of all the stanclifig orders
with the exception of three, to be considered at the next
meeting, which was carried ; and
The council adjourned to the first Wednesday in January.

ANNUAL

MEETING OF THE TRADESMEN'S

CONS

ERVATIVE ASSOCIATION

The annual meeting of the Tradesmen's Conservative As-
sociation was held on Tuesday evening, in the large room at
the York Hotel. On the motion of a member in the body of
the room, Alexander Smith, Esq., the newly elected member
for North Toxteth, was called to the chair, the motion being
carried by acclamation.

The CHAIRMAN, having taken his place, thanked the
meeting for the kind manner in which they had received him,
and expressed his regret that the scat which he occupied was
not filled by their respected friend, Samuel Holme, Esq.,
who was absent in consequenee of indisposition. There was
not a single individual present, he was persuaded, who bad
not rejoiced, and did not rejoice, in the success which had
attended the conservative struggle at the recent municipal
election. (Loud cheers.) He ought to have said, in order
to make himself perfectly understood, the general municipal
election, for he did not intend to allude to the struggle with
which he had bean connected. (Cheers.) Owing to the
spread of conservative principles, the strength of which bad
emanated from that conservative association over which he
had now the honour of presiding, they had been enabled, at
the general municipal election of the 2d November, to return
a considerable majority to the town-council. (Loud cheers.)
If he might for a short time allude to the last struggle, he
meant to the more recent struggle in which he himself was a
party, they had great reason to congratulate themselves on
the triumph of principle which had been evinced in North
Toxteth. He did not intend to arrogate anything to himself,
for he regarded it as a struggle of principle. Every exertion
had been made by their opponents ;. in fact, the most strenu-
ous exertions-had been made by both sides ; but in spite of
the efforts made by the other side, the conservatives had suc-
ceeded. (Cheers.) It was on the part of their adversaries
a most desperate effort. There was not one single thing which
could possibly conduce to success which they did not put in
operation. They brought forward Mr. Rathbone, an excellent
gentleman it' private life, but one whose political principles
were not in unison with those of the ward, and he verily be-
lieved of the town. He was, amongst other things, a strenu-
ous advocate of the system of education adopted in the cor-
poration schools, and he thought he owed his defeat to the
principles which he espoused, but particularly to that part of
them to which he had just alluded. It had been proved to
demonstration, that the principles of that party were opposed
to those of the great mass of the people of Liverpool. They
were all aware of the great efforts which had been made to
place on the list of voters persons who, till now, were not
When amongst the constituency. hen they wished to
make voters who did they go to ? To the lowest individuals
of the Roman catholic church. They did not go to the
Englishmen and protestant members of the community,
but to those only who were priest-ridden, and who would
do whatever their priests commanded them. These were
not English principles. (Loud and continued cheering.)
When they endeavoured to put the same individuals, by the
same means, amongst those who possessed the franchise on
the parliamentary registry, they were told by the revising
barristers that such a proceeding was illegal. It appeared to
him that it had been sufficiently proved that many of the
leading men of that party had given large sums of money for
this purpose, and these persons were to be driven up to the
poll by every influence that could be brought to operate.
(Cheers.) He would tell them of one instance in Toxteth-
park, of a poor fellow, a Roman Catholic, an honest man,
who, previously to the recent election, called upon him, and
told him that nothing in the world should induce him to vote
against him ; he had been in his employ a number of years,
and had received many hundred pounds from the concern to
which lie belonged, and nothing should induce him to vote
against him. Yet, between half-past three and four o'clock,
that very man was brought up, and he voted for Mr. Rath-
bone. lie thought it was desirable to trace this matter, and
see how it had occurred. The poor man called at the office
a few days after, when he (the chairman) learned that the
man had been carried away by an agent of his landlord. He
was shut up in this agent's house, and no friend of his (Mr.
Smith's) was allowed to see him, as a matter of course. He
was, however, seers by several of the other side, and at last
he was seen by a priest. After some little whispering by the
priest, the man went and voted for Mr. Rathbone. Se
called and expressed his sorrow for what had occurred, but
he said such means had been used to coerce him as he did
not dare to resist. For the opposite party to talk of bribery
to them was utterly absurd, when they knew of such cases
on the part of Mr. Rathbone's friends. They were aware of
many instances of a nature that rendered the insinuations
and assertions that had been thrown out against them per-
fectly ridiculous. That Mr. Rathbone himself was cogni-
sant of these proceedings he did not say ; he believed most
sincerely that he was not. The influences used by his liertYl
however, were notorious; but in spite of them the good
feeling of the town had evinced in a most marked manlier'
and they knew the result, which was that he (the chairmaecl
had the honour (the conclusion of this sentence was drowse
in the loud cheers that ensued.) Why did he state these
facts ? Because he thought he ought to make it known, that
those who styled themselves the reformers, and who chargeA
his party with delinquency, had been the greatest delinquents
themselves. (Loud and long continued cheering.) He had
now to turn to more pleasing subjects. They had much
business before them, but there was one subject which claim-
ed preference. Since they last met, a circumstance had oc-
curred which must be gratifying to the feelings of every
Englishman : he alluded to the birth of a princess-royal.
(Loud cheers.) They would most of them remember the
melancholy result which had occurred when the nation
was
looking forward once before to a similar event,
_when their
nie
hopes we fixed on the Princess Charlotte of Wales. T
impelled them now to hail with double satisfaction and joy
the safe delivery of the Queen, and to thank the AlmightY
Disposer of Events that he had been pleased to preserve her;
who had given to her a successor to her throne, and one
who, they trusted, would preserve the protestant ascendanuseY:
(Cheers.) This must never be left out of view ; they m
never forget the principles which had_ placed the house of
Brunswick on the throne of these realms. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.) Her Majesty's successor, they hoped, would pre:
serve to them the valuable institutions which tbey enjoyed.
(Cheers.) He would not delay the meeting longer,. but
would proceed at once to the business of the evening.
Several new members having been proposed and admitted,
in the usual form,
Mr. DANIEL LEESON then rose to address the meeting
amidst loud cheers. He said he was sure it must •be most
gratifying to them to see occupying the chair, the
.gentleman
who, had so successfully opposed Mr. William Rathbone
sis
North Toxtexth Ward. (Cheers.) He believed there w