The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-09-07 00:00:00

REMOVAL OF THE HAYMARKET.

It was stated that it had been determined to remove the
Market for the sale of hay, from the existing Haymarket,
and that negociatious fur the purchase of land in Great
Homer-street had been completed, where the Haymarket
was in future to be held. _ . .

Mr. Alderman FREME expressed his opinion that so im-
portant a measure ought not to pass without further conside-
ration. The question as to removing an ancient market,
was one of considerable importance, involving as it did great
interests. The present market was, as any one might see,
on reference to a plan, in the centre of the town, and nearly
all the agricultural produce brought hither was there disposed
of; not only hay and straw, but human food, such as potatoes
and vegetables. The subject had, he thought, been brought
before them too suddenly; they ought not to decide on so im-
portant a measure at once; he should therefore propose as an
amendment on the report, that the decision on that portion
of the report should not be confirmed till they -had some fur-

ther information respecting the matter.
Mr. Councillor JAMES LAWRENCE begged to second the
motion.

Mr. Councillor Cu aniE said the step had not been taken
by the committee without the most deliberate and mature
consideration. He was quite aware that the present market
was an ancient market, but he was not before aware that
vegetables and articles of human food were sold in this mar-
ket—it being a hay market. The corporation had the power
to remove any market that it was deemed necessary to re-
move; and in consequence of the proposed appropriation of
the site of the Old Infirmary to important public buildings,
as the Saint George's Hall and the Assize Courts, it must
have been obvious to every one that it would be necessary
to move the Haymarket. This was well known that it was
a matter of course that it must he removed. In consequence
of the great increase of the town, it was necessary to look out
for a proper situation; and it might be necessary to have two
markets; but that would be a subject for future considera-
tion. They found, and their investigation was very minute,
that a great proportion of the hay and straw came from the
north, and that a great proportion was also sold out in that
direction. Under those circumstances they had considered
the situation offered as eligible, especially as it was reasona-
ble in price, and within the borough. It was of great con-
sequence that' they should be prepared beforehand ; so that
he conceived the committee had done perfeCtly right in
taking the best situation that presented itself. He was sure
Mr. Alderman Freme could not-point out a better situation.
Mr. Councillor JOHN HOLMES suggested that the site of
the old Botanical Gardens would be a good situation for the
purpose, at the south end of the town.
Mr. BOLTON said he disagreed with Mr. Freme, when that
'gentleman called the present an ancient market. He recol-
lected perfectly, some twenty-five years ago, that. the market
was held between Shaw's-brow and St. John's Church. He
thought it might be desirable to have another market near
the old Botanical Gardens.
Mr. Councillor THOR NHlrt. remarked that it would soon,
in any case, have been necessary to have provided a more
commodious market, as the present market was quite inade-
quate for the wants or the public.
Mr. Councillor JOHN Hosams thought, at all events, that
there ought to be a market in the south. But he thought the
land at the north ought to be secured.
Mr. Councillor CHAS. LAWRENCE thought a site for a
market ought to be secured at the south. It would be a great
hardship for the producers of the south to go so great a dis-
tance to the north.
Mr. Alderman EVANS by no means wished to pass any
censure on the Finance Committee. With regard to the
land he thought it would be well to keep it at the price agreed
npOn.. He agreed, however, with Mr. Freme, that the pro-
posal had come before the council unawares. He had never
heard tbe subject argued or mentioned, but as a probable
contingency that would be desirable; but as regarded Great
Homer-street the matter was never once discussed. He
rn.,ohprg of the. Finance Committee would
they (the members of the committee) had reflected closely
upon it previously. The members of the council had not had
the benefit of reflection when matters of this nature were
brought before them, and it was, he conceived, merely defe-
rential to the council, that its members should be allowed
time for reflection. if each of the committees were to come
down to them, and say, "we have resolved upon such and
such measures, after proper consideration," the business of
the council, as a deliberate assembly, would be altogether at
an end. If it were only to show that the bringing of reports
before them was not matter of form, he should be inclined to
agree with Mr. Freme in his wish that time should be given
for consideration. He would propose, that Mr. Freme's
suggestion be acted upon, as regarded the postponement,
but that the purchase of the land be confirmed.
Mr. Councillor Cue um believed Mr. Evans was aware that
the members of the Finance Committee knew their business
too well to expect that any measure recommended by them,
should pass the Council without consideration. The very ob-
ject of reading their recommendations was to subject them to
a revision. In alluding to the consideration which the subject
had received, he merely wished to satisfy them that it was not
a measure that had passed hastily. He was so satisfied of the
goodness of the situation, and of the desirableness of the re-
moval, that he had no objection whatever to a month's delay,
for he was convinced the more they considered and examined
into the measure of the committee, the more they would ap-
prove of it; neither would the public interests suffer from such
delay. When the acts of the Finance Committee were called
in question, he thought it his duty to explain them, and had
done his hest to du so.
Mr. EyaNs.—lt is not my intention to call in question the
proceedings of the Finance Committee at all.
Mr. COGLAN agreed as to the importance of the removal of
the market, but he thought it also of great importance that
the public should always be apprised of such measures when
contemplated; the Council ought not to be called upon to
decide instantly upon a point of so much importance.
Mr. Alderman BnowN.—Allow me to ask if the now-con-
firming of these proceedings will make the bargain for the land
void ?
The 111 A yon.—lt is a bargain made subject to your con-
firmation.
Mr. Councillor Curium—Of course, if the Council do not
choose to confirm the proceedings, and the parties hereafter
should not choose to sell the land, the bargain is cancelled.
Dr. CARSON thought the matter of such deep importance,
that the mere value of the land ought not to be any consider-
ation whatever. The interests of numbers of individuals were
involved, and he thought the market ought to be placed where
it would be of the most general convenience, the site pro-
posed he thought quite out of the way. He thought no place
could be worse. He suggested the site of the late Botanic
Garden, as a very, proper and convenient place.
At the suggestion of Mr. Cue it IE, the Town-clerk read over
a statement of the number of loads brought to market by the
north-east and south roads, and in what direction sent away.
From the 20th July to the 4th August, there had been brought
to market by the north road, 838 loads; by the east road, 551
loads; and by the south road, 148 loads. There had been sold
as follows, in the several districts named, 267, Christian-street
and Islington; 435, Scotland-road and Vauxhall-road; 237,
Dale-street; 362, Park-lane, &c.; 167, Brownlow-hill and
Mount-pleasant.
It was further stated that the land had been bought from
Richard Houghton, Esq., at 21s. per square yard, subject to
the decision of the Council.
Mr. FREME said he did not make any proposition as to the
site: His only wish was, that the subject should have that
due consideration which its importance and the interests in-
volved demanded:

The MaTots;id, he did not feel that it would be proper for
him to take any part in the discussion, but he would remark,
that there had often been a discretionary power given to the
committees in matters of this sort, and it was particularly ne-
cessary when the purchase of land was concerned; for, if
their proceedings in relation to such purchases were made
public, they would sometimes have to pay double what they
ought to pay.--(Hear, hear.) The Finance Committee, there-
fore, could not be considered as having. gone out of their
course in the present instance.
Mr. EVANS would move, that the part of the report of the
cOminittee which related to the removal of the market, be not
confirmed, leaving the purchase of the land good.
Mr. CHARLES LAWRENCE said, Mr. Houghton who bad
been sitting near him had retired. He had informed him,
(Mr. Lawrence,) that he had sold the land at a low price, in
consideration that there would be a market there. This would
justify him in considering the bargain off, if the land were
not to be appropriated to that purpose.
Mr. Evans's motion was put to the vote, when there ap-
peared in its favour Messrs. Mellor, Walmsley, Woolright,
J. Lawrence, Cooper, Carson, Morecroft, Mason, G. H. Law-
rence, Ramsden, Duncan, Shed, Booth, Evans, and Freme.
Against the motion; Messrs. Thornhill, Harvey, Shand,
Preston, Jno. Holmes, Rawdon, H. Holmes Bolton Birch,
Bright, H. Hornby, Bibby, C. Lawrence, 'Wood, Lassell,
Higgins, Coglan, Seger, Smith, Jordan, Currie, Brown, Lea-
thorn, Jones, olt, Bulley, Barclay, Robinson, and the
Mayor.
Against the motion, 29; for it, I5—majority, 14.
The proceedings 'of the Finance Committee were con-
firmed.

...._ _
The proceedings of several committees were read and con-
firmed.

WATCH COMMITTEE.

A testimony to the efficiency of the police, under the admi-
rable superintendence of Mr. Whittv, was read from the
mayor, as an acknowledgement for the important services
they had rendered in preserving order and quiet in the town
during the excitement of the coronation. The proceedings
were confirmed.

ST. JAMES'S MARKET, &C.

It was set forth in the proceedings of the Market Com-
mittee, that the enlargement of St James's Market had
been determined upon, and was in progress. In allusion to
certain statements of the prices obtained for the materials of
a house at the corner of Nile-street, and of the cost of an
excavation,
Mr. CoopEtt said, it appeared that the materials of the
house at the corner of Nile-street had been disposed of for
the sum of £5B 10s. Ile believed there was a resolution of
Council, that no property belonging to the Corporation was
to be disposed of but by public auction to the highest bidder.
He was surprised to find that no advertisement had appeared
relating to the property, nor had any board been stuck up.
On inquiry, he found that the sum of £l2O might have been
obtained fur the materials, while £5B 10s. had been taken,
and £2O had been paid for taking the building down. With
respect to the excavation, it appeared that the tender of
James Wilson had been accepted for £149 10s. He had
asked Mr. Woods what the cost ought to be. He had a copy
of Mr, Woods' note to him, in which that gentleman under-
took to do the work for 470, it would be more 6atiefectory

hat the work should be performed by the individual whose
tender was approved after public advertisement. He should
move therefore, that that part of the report be not confirmed
that the subject be referred back to the rinprovement Com-
mittee; and that advertisements for tenders, for the excava-
tion to be done in St. James's Market, be inserted in the
newspapers.
Mr. Councillor DUNCAN rose to make a reply, but
Mr. Councillor H IGGI NS said the motion was not seconded.
Mr. Councillor J. SMITH knew nothing of the facts of the
case, but would second the motion for the sake of eliciting

information.
Mr. DUNCAN rose to explain. He said, in the absence of
the chairman of the committee, he had presided at the meet-
ing.at which the resolutions had been passed, which it was
desired to refer back. The subject was brought before the
committee, and as time pressed, and it was very desirable to
have the preparations made with all possible expedition for
building an addition to the market, the surveyor was directed
to take such steps as he thought fit for the disposal of the
materials, reserving the brick and slate;_ and he believed the
surveyor got the highest price he could. The building was
in a very dilapidated state. The surveyor had submitted
what he had done to the committee, and it had been approved.
Mr. Councillor Cum:in.—So it appears that all this person
has got for £5B is this building, minus bricks and slates. He
hoped the report would not be spread abroad as a reflection
on the surveyor. Although he approved of publicity, he
thought there was always a certain discretion allowed ' • and
it would be scarcely worth while advertising the taking down
of a single house. He should certainly have thought that
sending round to the parties in the habit of excavating would
have been sufficient.
Mr. CooPEn, in reply, said, with regard to the dilapidation
of the house, that house had only been built twenty-five
years, and it was built of the best Baltic timber; so much
for that.
Mr. Councillor HIGGINS (interrupting.)-1 rise to order:
Mr. Cooper having spoke; perfectly out of order.
The MAY 0 R.—l understand Mr. Cooper was rising to reply.
Mr. Councillor CUR RIE.—I move that the Surveyor be
called in, as the best way of settling it once.
Mr. Councillor HENRY HOLMES.—I second it.
The MAYOR was proceeding to put the question, when
Mr. Alderman EVANS rose, lie said—This is a principle
of action which will be found very inconvenient. I would re-
commend the referring it to the market committee again, and
let them report. If we are once in the habit of calling indi-
viduals to explain there will be nu end to it.
The MAYOR.-It perhaps may be as well. The Mayor
then read the standing order relative to the publishing of sales,
from which it appeared that the regulation respecting public
advertisements of sales of property only applied to the sale of
land.
Mr. Alderman SIIIEL said, before the discussion closes I
beg to express my opinion that it would be very injudicious
in this council to allow such a charge as this to pass without
investigation. The charge, although only fur a small amount,
involved a principle which the council should inquire into,
and if well founded, have set to rights. If, on the contrary,
it should turn out that these charges are brought here with-
out sufficient grounds, it is but justice to ourselvei that we
should put the public in possession of these facts, and that
we should put an end to these charges, without gentlemen
taking every possible means to investigate them, and not
permit steps to be taken to damage the characters of this
council or its officers, without very strong grounds. I there-
fore second Mr. Cooper's motion, and I do so under the firm
conviction that the report of the committee and of the sur-
veyor will be found strictly correct.
Mr. Alderman EVANS expressed his conviction that the
surveyor had obtained the highest value for the materials; and
he thought they should be cautious how they received the
ec post facto valuation of rival and perhaps disappointed
competitors. They were perfectly safe now the materials
were sold, in saying they would give £l2O for what had been
sold for £5B, and they would be quite as safe if, instead of
£l2O, they had said £1,200. He thought the valuation of a
rival, now the property was out of competition, ought to go
forth to-the public as absolutely valueless.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN wished to ask whether Mr.
Alderman Shiel wished to support Mr. Cooper's motion to
the extent it went. That motion went to the extent of re-
questing the market committee to advertise.
Mr. Councillor C unit E said that was done.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN thought the question should
be merely referred back to the committee.
Dl r. Councillor COOPER had no objection Whatever to alter
his motion. His object was merely inquiry.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN.—To send the report back
with an order to advertise the property would be to pronounce
that the committee had done wrong.
Mr. Council COOPER then altered his motion.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN wished to throw out another
suggestion that a select committee should be appointed. He
presumed the market committee would have no objection.
Here was a very gross charge brought against the officers
employed by the committee, and it would not be exactly
correct to refer the matter back again to that committee. He
would, therefore, suggest the propriety of appointing a spe-
cial committee, for the purpose of inquiring into the matter.
The MAYOR thought it would not be worth while to refer
it to a fresh committee ; that the finance committee would do
very well.
Mr. ALDERMAN BROWN was of the same opinion as the
Mayor. He thought to refer it to a special committee would
be to make " a mountain of a mole-hill." "
The TOWN-CLERK then read the amended resolution.—
" That the proceedings of the market committee be referred
back for investigation with respect to the sale of part of the
materials of the house in Nile-street, and the excavation to
be done at St. James's Market."
Mr. Councillor COOPER in reply, said, it had been stated
by Mr. Duncan, that the materials sold for £5B 10s., were
exclusive of the bricks and slates. Now, he (Mr. Cooper)
distinctly stated, that the statement to him was exclusive of
the bricks and slates. With regard to the the excavation,
he copied the plan at the surveyor's office, and sent it to Mr.
Woods, Mr. Woods knowing nothing at all, whether he
should get the job or not, and Mr. Woods sent him back a
tender, and said he would do the work for £7O.
The motion was then unanimously agreed to.
The proceedings of the duck and excavation committee,
were then read and confirmed.
IMPROVEMENTS IN TEMPLE-STREET.

The MAYUIt said Mr. \Valmsley had received a petition
which had been put into his hands for presentation, but hei
Virriktit'ai.nvauirligivta-ecslingtftuilethuautosful''
against
petitions petitions, ou da
n
ti
therefore, perhaps, it would be for thr pleasure of the council
to receive it, but he hoped, in future, they would be delivered
by the petitioners at least the day preceding the council.
His worship then read the petition as follows :
'l'o the Mayor, Alderman., and Burgesses of the Borough of

Liverpool, in'the Couni-;i1 assembled.
The humble petition of the undersigned owners and occu.
piers of property situate iu Temple-street, and in the neigh.
bourhood thereof,
Sheweth,—
That your petitioners have received a communication from
the improvement committee, by which they are informed
that the corporation will contribute £2OOO towards the remo-
val of the nuisance iu Templecstreet, occasioned by Mr.
Bushby's warehouse, provided your petitioners will contri-
bute thereto the sum of £l4OO, the balance requited for the
effecting of such removal. And that your petitioners have
also been informed, that since this communication was ad-
dressed to them, the improvement committee have come to a
resolution to allow Mr. Bushby £lOOO in consideration of
his taking down two stories of the said warehouse, and that
the cellar door of the said warehouse is to be removed farther
back into Temple-street, towards the back part of the said
warehouse.
That your petitioners cannot but be surprised that so small
a sum as £1,400 should be allowed by the Improvement
Committee to stand in the way of abatement of a nuisance
which, as is well known, has been the occasion of death and
violent injury to several of the poorer inhabitants of the
town, whilst, at the same time, it is willing to grant Mr.
Bushby a sum nearly as large, namely, £l,OOO, towards an
improvement not calculated in anywise to benefit the town,
further than as it may lead to enhance the mere architectural
beauty of the building in question.
That your petitioners are also greatly surprised that they
should be called upon to contribute towards the abatement of
a public nuisance, which is more immediately dangerous to
the carters, labourers, and such poor inhabitants of the town
as are employed in the warehousing and conveyance of ar-
ticles of commerce, than to your petitioners as owners of pro-
perty in the neighbourhood. That, in the opinion of your petitioners, the abatement of
the nuisance in question would not in anywise affect the
property of your petitioners in the neighbourhood, further
than as it would increase the number of passengers through
Temple-street, and render more secure the lives of the la-
bourers employed by them; and that, the improvement
being of an altogether public nature, the public funds ought
to be made applicable to it, and your petitioners see no rea-
son why they should be called upon to contribute towards an
object, not of a private, but of a public nature.
That, in the opiuon of your petitioners, the poor of the
town ought to be special objects of consideration to the cor-
poration, and onght to be protected by it to the utmost extent
of its power, and that in no case can it more beneficially in-
terfere than in the present case, in which the lives of labour-
ers and workmen are in jeopardy.
Thai the great danger caused by the warehouse in question
arises from the narrow pass from Temple-street into Dale-
street, and that the removal of the cellar door above men-
tioned will have the effect of increasing such danger, inas-
much as the carts which have hitherto been in the habit of
standing in such narrow pass, and thereby blocking up the
the road, will be in consequence removed to the back part of
the warehouse, and, being so removed, the narrow pass will
be left open, and will become a great thoroughfare for the
passing and repassing of carts through the street, in conse-
quence of which there is every reason to believe that the
number of accidents will be greatly increased.
That your petitioners would have called a public meeting
of the inhabitants of Temple-street, and would have invited
thereto the carters, labourers, and other persons usually em-
ployed therein, for the purpose of framing a petition, urging
on the Improvement Committee the propriety and necessity
of altogether pulling down the building in question ; and
your petitioners have no doubt that, had such a meeting
been called, all parties would have joined in a prayer for the
removal of the warehouse. But your petitioners conceived
that the Improvement Committee could not have properly
taken into consideration the whole circumstances of the
case; and that, upon its reconsideration, the removal will be
effected without further expression of feeling on the subject,
and your petitioners have, therefore, not thought it neces-
sary to call such meeting.
Your petitioners, therefore, humbly pray, that yout council
will be pleased to direct that the property in question be
purchased with the funds of the corporation, and that the
nuisance may be abated, and that thereby safety may be
afforded to the labourers and carters in the exercise of
their calling.
And your petitioners will ever pray, &c.
Hutchinson Brothers, Taylor Brothers,
Bond and Procter, Thomas Mayon,
Bullen and Hio'nett, William Winn,
Geo. Scott and Co. William Geddes.

Glazebrook Brothers,
Isaac Knowles,
Allport and Co.
W. Lewis,
J. Booth,
Wm. Molyneux,
James Aspinall,
John Herd,
Geo. Crosfield and Co
W. and A. Wilkinson,
Waterhouse,
William M‘Kay,
Robinson, Cherry and Co.
William Sedgwick,
Richard Taylor and Sons, ,
Mr. CURRIE thought the best answer that could be given
to it, and one that would be most satisfactory to the petition-
ers, was that the nuisance has been ebd the
houses taken down, and by the last improvement chat day
confirmed, the passage would be widened. And it would be
more satisfactory to bear, at an expense less by £1,900 than
originally asked.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
SUNDAY SHAVING.
The MAYOR rose and said, the next was a petition from
150 gentlemen amongst the hair-dressers and shavers
(laughter), against Sunday shaving, which was as follows:
To the Worshipful the Mayor, Aldermen, and the Council
of the Borough of Liverpool.
The respectful Memorial of the undersigned Hairdressers
and Perfumers.

Edwards, Danson and Co.
John Collier,
J. Mulleneux and Sons,
Sharpe and Ashton,
J. B. Shuttleworth and Co.
David Parry,
Allan Maclean,
Edwd. P. Parry,
John Baske,
R. and J. Buggeln,
John Berry,
Sanderson and Co.
D. Dockray,
William Milburn.

Sheweth—
That your memorialists have long viewed, with feelings of
the deepest concern, the constant practice of the trade in
opening their shops on Sunday.,
That your memorialists consider the practice quite un-
necessary and uncalled for; and one that has a direct ten-
dency to corrupt tht- murals. or their 4isi6t4ntbpd al'.
pretgiceec

That your memorialists have long reasoned with their
fellow-tradesmen upon the urgent necessity of closing their
shops on Sundays, and upon the many advantages to be de-
rived therefrom, and the general answer received is, that
they would gladly do so (as they were fully convinced of the'
great importance of allowing their assistants and appren-
tices the advantage of the sabbath), but were fearful of
losing their regular customers, who would immediately re-

sort to those shops which were then open.
That your memorialists are well assured that, if the public
authorities would interfere, this very great evil, so justly
complained of, would shortly cease, and ultimately be very
beneficial to the inhabitants at large.
And your memorialists will ever pray, &c.
Mr. Councillor WALMSLEY said he had brought that ques-
tion before the Town-clerk a few days ago, and he would-
state how the law stood on the subject. If it was the wish
of the council to refer the subject to the Watch Committee
to see the law carried into effect, the Watch Committee
would endeavour to do their duty ; and an the memorialists
were nearly the whole of that trade. there would be no
difficulty.
The TOWN-CLERK said a law of the reign of Charles_ 11.
subjected any person, tradesmen, or artificer to a penalty of
ss. for carrying on his ordinary labour on the sabbath. That
penalty was recoverable before the justices in a sumniiiik
manner.
Mr. Alderman FICEME.—i should like to know if tile
meaning of that is, that no poor man is to be shaved on.
Sunday? (A laugh.) It is like the cooking of the pour
man's d►nner; he is to be forced to do it himself.

Mr. BLACK BURN said that was not a matter that fell within

the jurisdiction of the council, but he was glad to see the
petition treated with that deference and respect to which it
was entitled; the object was important., He could only
regret the necessity for the interference. He should wish
the hair-dressers, however, to unite amongst themselves and
agree to close their shops,. for they bad the power in their
own hands; but to levy a penalty was out of the province of
the council. It was the business of the magistrates, and not
theirs.
_ _

Ordered to lie on the table.
SURGEON TO THE GAOL.

- -
The MAYOR, as chairman of the Gaol Committee, read his
report on this subject to the following effect:—
That the Gaol Committee have, in pursuance of the reso-
lution of the council at their last meeting, proceeded ,to, in-
quire into the duties attached to the office of surgeon of,Lthe
borough prison, and as to the amount of salary proper to be
allowed to him.
That the duties of the office are dearly defined by the 17th
rule, in section 10; and by section 33 of the General Gaol Act
of 4 Geo. IV., c. 64, as follows:--17th rule. The surgeon
shall examine every prisoner who shall, be brought into the
prison, before be or she shall be passed intq the proper ward.
And no prisoner shall be discharged from prison if labouring
under any acute or dangerous distemper; nor until, in the
opinion of the surgeon, such discharge is safe, unless such
prisoner shall require to be discharged.
Sec. 33.—Every such surgeon shall, and is hereby required
to, visit any prison to which he shall be so, appointed—twice,
at least in every week, and oftener if necessary—and to see
every prisoner confined therein, whether criminal or debtor,
and to report to every general or quarter sessions the condi-
tion of the prison, and the state of health of the prisoners
under his care; and he shall further keep a journal, in which
he shall enter the date of every attendance on the perform-
ance of his duty, with any observations which may occur to
him in the execution thereof; and shall sign the same with
his name; and' such journal shall be kept in the prison, but
shall regularly be laid before the justices for their inspection,
at every quarter sessions, and shall be signed by the chair 7
man of the sessions, in proof of the same having been there
produced.
That the performance of these duties in the borough prison
requires an attendance on the part of the surgeon daily,
without exception, and occasionally to the extent of more
visits than one in the course of the day,
That, with-a view to general convenience, and especially
to cases of emergency, the residence of the surgeon should
be in Liverpool, and within a reasonable distance of the
prison. At the same time it is recommended, that no limited
distance be fixed, but that the residence of the candidates fur
the office be generally considered With their other qualifica-
tions.
. That the Gaol Committee recommend that a salary_ of
£lOO per annum be•allowed to the surgeon. .
The Mayon, in justice to himself, stated that there were
some parts of the report in which he did nut concur; he did
not agree in the proposition of £lOO per annum salary, which
he should oppose if it came to a vote.
Some conversation ensued whether or not the salary should
be adopted, and as to the number of candidates to be recom-
mended to the council to choose from. Ultimately it was
determined that the same course should be pursued as on
the appointment of the Governor of the Borough Gaol; that
three candidates should be recommended to the council as
eligible for the council to choose from; and, on the inotion
of Mr. Robinson the report was adopted.
CHEMICAL NUISANCES.
The MAYOR next presented a memorial, which was read
as follows:
To the Worshipful the Mayor, Aldermen; and Town Council

of the Borough of Liverpool
The Petition of the following Tradesmen and Inhabitants of

Vaux'hall-road,
Very respectfully showeth, ,-, •
That your petitioners, unfortunately for themselves and
families, reside in the immediate neighbourhood ,of the
chemical works of the Messrs. Hill and Lutwyche, and carry
on their several businesses there. That your petitioners,are
continually and perpetually affected by fumes of muriatic and
sulphuric acid gas, which are emitted from those works.-That
it makes them cough violently, makes their eyes smart,:aild
affects their breathing; it also tarnishes all the -metallic
articles in their houses with rust, and is, in short, a most in-
tolerable nuisance.
That your petitioners have observed with much concern
that, although measures have been adopted which have effec-
tually put a stop to nuisances of a similar nature in other parts
of the town, the same relief has not been extended to them.
Your petitioners have further to observe, that the:other
chemical works in the neighbourhood having ceased toaale-
nufacture alkali, there can -be no doubt whatever the nuis-
ances now complained of proceed from the works of Messrs.
Lutwyche and Hill.
That your petitioners respectfully entreat you, as. conser,-,
mit:ea
edt ssasonwfd citAtliocenhpdi
unl),ltt.aeoaslunebrseep4enentd?i6gltioiol::et
petitioners
Eo‘bloitol:lneeiin:setarto:ti7l)etrEneii&sofaecnlTlcoix. e• s;
s -
••2., ask. Lu tt,‘,ol The same
The memorial bore the signatures, residence, and occupa-
tions, of upwards of forty individuals..
Mr. ROBINSON moved that it be referred to the town-clerk.
Mr. PRESTON seconded the motion. . •
Mr. Lassau, inquired the object, of referring it- to the
town-clerk ; whether it was to report. thereon or take , pro-
ceedings; for it had been stated to him that the complaint
had been much exaggerated.
The TOWN-CLERK said the object of referring it to him was
that he might inquire into all the circumstances, and take
such steps as might be advisable.
Mr. LASSELL.—That may be to proceed.
The TowN-cLEßK.—Certainlv, or to request Mr. Crooke
to take proceedings, for he had had the management of those
prosecutions, if he (the town-cleik) should feel it necessary
to do so, as he had done formerly on a similar reference
being made to him.
The motion to refer the document to the town-clerk was
agreed to.

FREEMEN" ADMISSION FEE.

The MAYOR said, the next subject on the list was.amotioo,
of which notice had been given, "That, on the•next applies;
tion to parliament fore local act, the town-clerk be instructe°
to insert in the bill a clause to empower the council to reduce
or entirely abolish the fees at present chargeable on the Of
mission and enrolment. of persons entitled to the freedom °f
the borough." Before Mr. Smith brought forward his moti°°'
he begged to state that any notice of that sort introduced into
a bill would be thrown out by Lord Shaftesbury in the Hotol
of Lords, for he did not now allow any thing to be introduced
into a bill that was not directly to the purpose for which the
act was sought. He mentioned that, that they might net
attempt what was impracticable.
Mr. Councillor SMITH said he had no objection to leave
the onus of throwing it out on Lord Shaftesbury; he shout.
proceed with his motion. In rising to bring forward the r%
position, of which he had given notice, it was neither his Wl5l
nor intention to occupy their valuable time by any lengthene,,„
remarks on the subject. The cause which he wished to outi
vocate was in itselfso just and reasonable that he felt satisfieLe
it required few, if any, observations from him, to induce tlt
members of that council to give it their cordial support. ,
e
would, he apprehended, be readily admitted, when they botrit
in mind that a vast majority of the persons at that morne,o
entitled to the freedom of the borough, were individuals t t.
humble life, and of limited means, that the fees at pres!..jlie
demanded from them on admission were both unreasonsu
• t•
and exorbitant. The legislature, no doubt, veiwing the mate
ter in that light, had recently passed an act, abolishing :,
stamp duty of one pound, heretofore chargeable on the :0,
mission of persons entitled to the freedom of cities and. '',j
roughs in England and Wales; anti now it only rematillt-e
for them, so far as Liverpool was concerned, to carry out ',al
wise and politic intentions of parliament, by obtaining leeat
powers to enable them either to forego the fees in tow, or it,
least to reduce them to something like a moderate and qua
able standard. It might possibly be urged as a ground _ it,
objection to his motion, that they,had no right to entertagt,
because, if carried into effect, it would tend to diminish te"s,
revenues of the corporate estate, inasmuch as the fees i,r),stu. he
lion formed part and parcel of the borough fund. l',.".here
maintained there was no solidity in that argument. I"kieh
were any portion of local taxation under their control ".`,';„s
pressed unequally or unfairly upon any one particular (-to he
of the community, it was their rounden cluty,.as it oughttarge,
their anxious desire, as representatives of the town at_ „ie
to use every legal means in their power.to remedy the ll'itost
vance. •Besides, if that objection were a. valid one, theY of
at once he prepared to admit that theexteusive grantsree
land which had been made by the council within the last Lilo
years, were altogether wrong and unjust in principle.
land given for the site of St. George's Hall alone. (to S 3)
,01t1
thing of the Mechanics' Institution) would, if it viclo
to-morrow, for its fair value per square yard, bring,lll°'..
,5e fees
ney to the borough fund in one day, than the, fr,ceurn - for
would produce fur the next century to come.. n reh
t
the strength and soundness of that objection. •t• his
however, one all-sufficient and all.powerful reason, c'fer-
boon should be conceded. It would. be The means of euesent
ring a great moral benefit upon the yonug.metkat Irether,
entitled in the franchise. By abolishing the fees alt°7,ch as
or by fixing them at a comparatively moderate surn,
these individuals could afford conveniently to pa} out.cossitY
own resources, they would spare them the degradtug.-o,teedoin
Of having to apply to other parties to take up their_ Vreeniell
for them. They might talk of the corruption of tne;;,is verY
of Liverpool; but if any such did really exist,. loi seed 6
practice might its origin be traced, here were the first„doptio°
thbee'e„iirelY
of that corruption sown. He contended that by
of his proposal this demoralizing practice would into the
i
put an end to, and a spirit of independence infused.hen call°
minds of the freemen, which would induce them, v'r aed co'!"
upon to exercise the franchise, to do it honestly' like this
screntiously. And surely
was to be attained, he was
illyin,hooentn
at
sahkegi rneeta
utt
omo
Qv
joina
lb?
heoa sg?,
re
, old 11,°ti
huunurletahseoinrab unitedl callinggenerous support.. gtehart..)."re• jso,o-
.°
min them longer, but at once proceed to move e'ke 1008
—" That, on the next application to parliament, for elan!:
act, the town-clerk be instructed to insert in the E:isih ibe fees
to empower the council to reduce or entirely
ent of per'
at present chargeable on the admission and enr°.an
sons entitled to the freedom of the borough.", , secona
Mr. Councillor WALMSLEY did not wish exact'Y
the motion, but to say a few words on the subjliiiihey kne
The MAYOR was afraid it would be irregular, t
th.e k-iou
whether the motion was seconded, and before
Mr. Councillor CooeEtt seconded
Mr. Councillor WA LNISLEY Said,
to remit the fee, he should be glad to snftPtcrc,.h.
motion, as it was a step towards the extensiontn:nt,
but if they went to the legislature for an enac
take a much wider range. If Mr. Smith wouldhuseboldsufrotgbee
motion the remission of theshillingon the
In one 'Ord incoo-
he should be very hap tc second it. ,•
diStrafiCti/Se.- in tax
itfhteheingiu°lnitql, irt.adsrl.Wth',7o
.sequence town nol eosfs t thheaunml
it/npersonsu f tthe
ehraetgi
ward of the t5""";otio°
notes, and if such were the case infonas
motion
great might it be in others. As. art,
went, he was sa I he inavo
of
had beep said t . bill; I
the Council; bur, after what
utroduee,l lute, a „eine
thought it could not be safelyi
introduce
a bill
(or
the
thought it would be better tot !er bill by insertiog ,`;,-n- tn. add
tisfied it would have tekt st • r
purpose than to endanger alio
the leaßt objec--, ddtion
frRO
Mr. Councillor SMITH had not
.the
recant ion sh I iiengclivtnhaetebYllatibil:
ot.i
was then agreed to he made to the in 0
urfetofore Paid es
the charge of one shilling pet annum,. he
er,,„,g the ease
the shilling clause.—(Hear, hear.) . r he'fl;lllVaals,),,otthhaet,
"40ed."
be di,contin 4,A
0 f overseershim se h oolfder thes
in poora eo tboroughheb<irsliiusgt Jor los
Mr, Vooncillor H. —430 1 "(1`)"`"4 "

the electors of Liverpool are to be the only people who are to
be exempted from the shilling ?
Mr. Alderman EoBINSON.—Yes.
Mr. Couuncillor G. H. LAWRENCE.
wasting our time in urging that.
Mr. Alderman RoetelSoN.-1 think the gentleman has for-
gotten we are praying to relieve the freemen of Liverpool
only?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—But that goes into the borough
purse ?
Mr. Councillor WALIIISLEY said he should be very glad to
Second the motion, with this addition, Mr. Cooper consenting
to withdraw his seconding.
Mr. Masotti said the motion and amendment are certainly
perfectly well so far as they go, but I don't think they go far
enough.
Mr. Councillor W. CuttelE.—There is no amendment.
Mr. Councillor MASON.—Then I will call it the compound
Motion. (Hear and laughter.) It appears to me, sir, that in
making an application of that kind to Parliament we should
Very soon be resisted. 1 cannot, for a moment, suppose that
the government would recommend that measure as extend-
ing only to Liverpool, leaving out the other parts of the
country. First, with regard to the payment of the shilling
for registration, the motion does not include the payment of
taxes) which is much more obnoxious than the payment of
the shilling. But, looking at the whole, I shall consider it
ray duty to propose an amendment, extending to the taxes as
well as to the shilling. (Great laughter.) It appears to me,
gentlemen, that the relinquishing of the shilling will furnish
o relief to the housholders. The great oppression appears
to me to be the payment of taxes; and by taking off the
shilling we shall derive no benefit. 1 shall, therefore, beg to
propose a much more comprehensive Clause than the one
Contained in the motion:—(Continued laughter)—" That a
committee be appointed to take into consideration the pro-
priety of petitioning both Houses of Parliament, on the
opening of the next session, for an act to enable the Town-
Councils of the various corporate towns in England and
Wales to abolish the customary fees or charges payable on
the admission of freemen to their freedom; and also to repeal
those clauses in the parliamentary reform act, which impose
the payment of a shilling on the registration of electors, and
the payment of rates as a part of their qualification."
Mr. Councillor MotiEcaorr seconded the amendment.
Mr. Alderman EVANS said, with regard to Mr. Mason's
Motion, however much he approved of it, he could not con-
sider it as anything else but child's play with parliament.
But as the question of removing any existing obstacle out of
the way of the freemen that he was decidedly opposed to ; in
the place of 20s he would put Ell) in their way if he could do
it. Their admission under such circumstances was an
anomaly; it was against the principle of the £lO franchise.
And what were the merits of these freemen who were not
able to keep house, and who incurred none of the direct
taxes' borne by society? What were their merits? He did
not wish to depreciate them lower than they were, but he
could only conceive that a body of freemen who had not the
right that otherb had by being £lO householders and the pay-
Meat of rates—he could only conceive them as living with
their relatives or in lodgings, and not qualified to exercise
any judgment in the matter, or else he believed a large num-
ber had been by their own dissolute lives rendered incapable
of keeping house or any of those establishments that would
give them a legitimate right toovote. He could see no claim,
no merit whatever on their part that they should be made a
kind of electoral body at variance ,vlth the other institutions
of the country and with the spirit of the reform bill, and to
the injury 01 others who are not freemen, but are equally lia-
ble as themselves to be balloted into the militia, and have as
much right to be called Englishmen as they have. Now un-
less they gave universal suffrage he could not conceive how
they could give to freemen, with the least regard to justice
and impartiality, any kind of facilities of that kind, and un-
questionably, if it were not founded in justice and propriety,
It Was the last use they should make of the corporate revenue;
for if they remitted the corporate revenue it was equal to
giving it. Would one of those freemen if he got up in the
world and became an exporter of salt relinquish the remission
he had of the town dues? They (the freemen) had got advan-
tages that many would believe they had no right to, and they
stye council) would give them more and overlook the great
Mass who were not freemen, and had no vote whatever. It was
npomsibleconsistently to give to one.without giving totheother.
And what was asked for them ? £l, not more. It was not,
looking at the average of life, more than Is. a-year. While
others had their 1.:25 and £3O to pay, this man got off with
a shilling. It was said, that it would raise their characters;
that if they were not assisted, they had great difficulty in
Paying the admission. He was at a loss to know, when they
coked at the freemen, who were principally mechanics, how
they could not raise once in their lives the sum of £l. Look-
ing at that class, the lower they went, the more dependent
they found them, and the more venality there unquestionably
w„_6ll. Now, in place of raising the characters of the freemen,
the corporation became a party to bribe them; they supplied
44, and the other was supplied by the wealthy men who
naight, on the one or the other side like to give it ; but the
i
ireenian would never be content with that El, he would want
something after that. He said, " ou have given me my
nto, but what will youth ive me fuyr myself." (A laugh.)
Looking at the late conduct of the conservative leaders—let
litre be no alarm about this, he was not going into this—in
the Lords, and even in the House of Commons, he was not
at' all surprised that they should wish to give the freemen
ever, thing, because they had had the practical experience
of them. But could anything be more at variance to the
received principles of the conservative interest in England,
:that men who had nothing, who owned nothing, should have
.i_vnte at all ? Where was their stake in the country ? Ought
ey not to give to property its due influence ? Yes, it was to
Rive property an undue influence, to give it to those who could
Vu it to enlist on either side, the vile, for party purposes.
' vr,•he did not scruple to say, if they examined into that
Portiont of the freemen who were not householders and had
°1 a right to vote in the direct manner, that they must be
reduced to acknowledge that they were precisely that class
that, if any were to be excluded from the right of voting, they
te_reethey. Either their youth or their dissolute habits—fin
in,r was no other way of accounting for their not having an
uopendence which would rank them like citizens. He
Owed to others or by what they (the freemen) claimed them-
i;tavcr see how far they could be justified in giving them any
other then facility. But he put it to gentlemen what was this
r then a degree? Would they they introduce them to
t`olie Municipal voting? It was all a degree of the same kind
eilgliv,e them legislation in local matters without any respon-
It* c4;7ln 1-. But if they began
us with this_, how were they to resist
piis4 after that of household suffrage for municipal pu t -
Mi. I,
"mu BOLTON.—Have you concluded with any
tely ?
• Ai
- , derman EVANS.-1 oppose the thing altogether.
tvai',Onncilior BorsroN quite concurred in what Mr. Ald.
Priyilo7d said. He had ever been opposed to exclusive
Politic; le whether in matters of opinion as to religion or
to the bet'r why one party in the country should be prejudiced
the ann tlert of another, and he never could discover why
rences"srheontlres of such
.men as the Tobins and the Law-
tlPPrentie rl have privileges that were withheld from the
no thou es of the Bibbys and the Brocklebanks and others;
~ght it was an exceedingly unwarrantable and unjust
Besides if it were just to give it to a class of per-
ho were the accidental sons and apprentices of free-
11▪
1, what would it lead to? It would lead to universal
suffrage, and he was not an advocate for universal suffrage.
He thought the right of voting very fairly laid on persons who
occupied houses in market towns and paid rates and taxes
'These men had a clear interest in the good government 'anti
who being of the country. And howwenrl ti
were e parties that
advocated these exclusive privileges ,
sell the electors like cattle at the market. .:I'll'ens s•emel that
would
sell very
expensive law appointment connected with thafeouneil, and
therefore it was right that they should take legal fees, for if
those were abolished they might also go to the Court of Re-
&uests and abolish the fees on the taking out of summonses,
c. He would again ask on what ground would they take
that class of persons under their protection, and add to the
privileges which it was conceived they already unjustly pos-
sessed? He (Mr. Bolton) was a householder, and he would
stick to his order, conce:v ng it to be that order which ought
to hare all the privileges.
Mr. Councillor SHAND would not trouble the council with
many remarks, for he must say he liked neither of the mo-
tions. Perhaps it was a mistake of the last speaker in stating
that the " accidental children," and not the legal children,
of freemen, were freemen. (Laughter.) He had generally
found that he had a great deal of trouble in getting his chil-
dren the freedom. (Loud laughter.) He would move that
the original motion be adhered to as an amendment. Ile
conceived the registration shilling to be totally a national
thing, with which they had nothing to do.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON begged to explain. He did not
think he said the accidental children. He meant to say the
children who were accidentally the sons of freemen. (Con-
tinued laughter.)
Mr. Alderman SHiEL—There is no accident in it. (Much
laughter.)
Mr. Councillor W. CURRIE concurred with his friend Mr.
Shand in not liking either motion or amendment, nor yet the
?righted motion; he would vote against all three. Rethought
* would be a most injudicious thing, after the intimation
e Mayor gave them at the comtnencement of the discus-
!tan, that now tying_ their hands to int roduee some clause
• 14!0 some future bill—a clause which had nothing to do
with that bill; would be a most unwise proceeding. The
t awn-clerk would tell them that the introduction of ex-
traneous matter into a bill was fatal to the bill itself. He
therefore did say, that it would not be the part of prudent
teei,-,--of men who knew something of parliamentary pro-
, el 'lugs, to p
, ass a resolution which any future council might
scind, lede themsel toe on of a
"'Le that to
inpto agny futureves bill. t
he intr
shouldt thereforeclause vote
tgainst it. But now with respect to the freemen themselves
did not believe that this £1 was a matter of much object.
hj,believed, to use an offensive term, that this matter was
tsil bugbear" on this occasion. He did not think
that the freemen who were worth considering, considered the
at all,. He did think that young men, the very first thing
tae would do, would be by prudence and an abstaining front
47' alehouse to save such a sum as to enable them to claim
the Privilege. He believed that all the young freemen in
wooltown who were worth caring about—that every young
who was of independent character and of moral worth,
hl make the obtaining of that privilege the dearest object
be had, and would sacrifice the alehouse and the theatre,
HH." every thing else, in order to obtain that right. (Hear.)
e thought he should do more for the independence of the
illeisttn by letting him see, that if he would be free he must
~..e_Pnd on himself; and he thought the charge was a most
iZterate charge; and that to take it off would be to die-
ad the equilibrium of the householders and freemen, to the
vantage of the latter. He thought they should not do
isnetr dutsr in andsssig the motion, both for the sake of the
therefore
The the freemen themselves, and he should
•Irlifenre vote against all the motions.
Bathe row N-cLERK said he must state. from the experience
tet.last session, that the mayor was right in what he had
, and if new matter were introduced into bills, the
course the parliamentary officers took was to consider such
new
uponsubiect as a new bill altogether, and charge their fees
Whit it accordiugly. It was also likely that the bill into
'eh the
additional clause might be introduced would be delayed by
the b meetings in committees that would be required. and
„n_lno ability was that the success of the bill itself would be
fnru gered. If, therefore, they intended to go to parliament
that hill purpose, make it a dis-
tinct
he would recommend them to
the expense of which would be £250.
ne
nar. UoGLAN said although the remarks made by Mr Cur-
e on the danger of clogging a bill with such a clause were
very form•d
should 1 able, he did not allow them to influence him, Ile
b4-B,:wnote against the measure on the broad and extended
,otlaa and the principle of correct Reform, and he could
moment recognise the claims of a body of men who
had beren absolutely foisted on the reformers of this country
tithsat.h.e..p:ice paid for the reform bill. Without their agreeing to
bee
'n
trna.nreeform bill, with all its advantages,would never have
claim to,theld fle felt, therefore, that these men had no just
everrightshave
and privileges they now enjoyed, and when
he should
pyiyiteges,it the opportunity to deprive them of those
would be his duty to assist matrons that object.
He flirt not object to them because as some had stated, they
were dissolute corrupt, and immoral. He regretted the cor-
n]
, Pt state of that_ body; but he must say of them that any
class of mweinthplaaicmilainr a
(siimilar situation, with similar temp-
endu2i;lion, with the incentives which
were used to corruu t a
acted precisely as they have a'cletencete• their
minds'would have
_ they were nut more cor-
rupt thin other bodies of men would be under the same treat-
Mont. Neither did he oppose theta because they in general
(the opposed •
to reform, for if they could be won over to them
were
reformers) he would still oppose them,
"Res which they possessed because the Pri-
the same rank int hesameavel•hichn,. as had been
community,vvre not enjoyed by others of
the
by Alder. Evans, was iian livi.avuinhgought not
to exist in a free country, Vie opposed theYir what the
"me class did not possess, fi om the accidental circumstance
th
a. Ley were children of parents who possessed that which re-
. fleeted h
e_ no honour upon them, and nothing but the right of vo
lining. He could not consider them butes a portion of the • -
oili!e that had the dangerous privele_ge of universal suffrage
olds its WoTPt PoqSereaCe; Corthetnetal with it. If universal

Ob, surely, we are

suffrage were conceeded to the great mass of the community
it would have this good, that the great mass of persons en-
trusted with the right of voting would be so great that no
purse could reach them, so that they might to a great extent
cease to be corrupt. But the class of freemen was to a great
extent exposed to much greater temptations. They were
precisely of the rank and situation in life of those who would
be benefitted by universal suffrage, with the evil of their
numbers being numerically small, exposing them more par-
ticularly to temptation, and to be laid hold of for electioneer-
ing purposes • for he was sorry to say they most readily lent
their aid to whichever party would give the highest sum. He
opposed them as a body ; lie could not recognise them in the
state; they had no right to the privileges they enjoyed, and
yet they came to claim equality—to be of the same rank as
those whom the legistature had invested with the right of
voting—that class which paid the taxes, had a house over
their heads, an interest in the state, and contributed towards
its support. If the persons now seeking exemption from the
payment of the admission, &c., had really the laudable desire
to obtain enfranchisement, let them lay up against a rainy
day. But he knew many who were not entitled to enfran-
chisement because they were not apprenticed to freemen,
who felt hurt, acid justly so, that a portion of the workmen
of the same shop had privileges that they could not fairly
claim, and yet those that were excluded were better members
of society in general. Unless then they would agree to the
principle of universal suffrage, which he thought, in the pre-
sent state of society, an evil, he could not recognise that
body of men, and therefore he should oppose the motion.
Mr. Wool) inquired whether it was not true that they
were not at liberty to reduce the tolls or town dues if com-
plained of, without the consent of the creditors of the cor-
poration ?
The Tovvre-cLERK said the tolls of the borough could not be
reduced without the consent of a majority- of the bondholders
or the corporation.
Mr. Woou resumed.--But if a memorial from a particular
body of merchants was presented, praying for their reduction,
it would be attended to, while here the petition of a body of
men was disregarded because they happened to be the free-
men of Liverpool, and, were not in good odour in that room.
Mr. Alderman Evans had designated them as mere mechan-
ics, and as men of dissolute habits; he (Mr. Wood) had hail
a good deal to do with electioneering matters, and he had
always found the lower class of freemen to be the most inde-
pendent in their character.—(Laughter.) —And he never
gave a bribe, and never was asked for one by the lower class
of freemen in Liverpool, and that was saying a great deal.—
(Much laughter.) If they would refer back to the disgrace-
ful election of Ewart and Denison, they would find that the
freemen that got the largest bribes were householders, paying
rents of £3O, £4O, £5O, £6O, and £7O a-year, while the poor
man only got his £2. He thought the character given of the
freemen in that room wire not what they deserved. He was
a freeman himself, and he should always vote as a freeman,
and not as a householder.
Mr. SHEIL was exceedingly happy to hear that Lord
Shaftesbury had come to so wise a decision as to strike out
clauses introduced into bills different to the objects of the
bills. It was a wise conclusion, though come to at rather a
late period, but in that he resembled some gentlemen in that
room who advocated that motion. It was very singular that
the late corporation who were not required to go to any other
power to reduce the fees than themselves, that by them the
admission was not reduced; it was very singular when the
new corporation had come in, or when they were about to
come in. that the old corporation were so exceedingly gene-
rous in giving away that which did not belong to them, al-
though for a long period they had been in the habit of consi-
dering it as their own property. Now, he was inclined to
think the question was not then brought forward on its own
merits, for it was the custom with certain gentlemen to have
some particular question for agitation in the months of Au-
gust or September, and he supposed this question of the free-
men was to be the cheval de bataille of present year. (" No,
no.") It was a strong one. The last gentleman who had
spoken said the freemen were the most independent set of
men, while the first gentleman began by advocating the cause
of those very humble in life, and of limited means, and went
on to advocate the reduction to a more equitable standard,
his object being to remove them from the degrading necessity
of obtaining by others the payment of the 20s. fee. Now,
look at the independent men of the last speaker, by the first
speaker placed in the degrading position of which he had
spoken; and yet they were called upon to do more fur these
men—to grant without the fees exemption from the payment
of town dues and market tolls, all which they could obtain
for twenty shillings—men who, nevertheless, were quite
willing to place themselves in that " degrading situation."
They were called upon not to exercise a right in possession,
but to go and ask parliament to give them a certain act : but
before they' did that they should have a strong case to war-
rant them in doing it, and no one would say that any case
had been made out at all to warrant the council in taking a
single step for the purpose of the motion of Mr. Smith.
He did not think it necessary to take up much of the state-
ment of Mr Walmsley, that 120 persons were excluded from
the register, by not paying the registration fee of one shilling.
lie thought there must be a gross neglect somewhere, if not
a gross dereliction of duty. lie spoke in the presence of
the town-clerk when he stated his opinion that the law made
no distinction between the one shilling and the poor-rates,
and if any officer had made any distinction it was a gross
violation of law, and that the council, as the protector of the
public rights, should look into, and have the man punished
who had been guilty of such a dereliction of duty.
Mr. WoolootinslT, in allusion to the observation of Mr.
Wood, that the freemen were in bad odour in that room,
said, he wondered they had now got into such good odour
with a certain party, for no effort was made to reduce the fee
during the existence of the old corporation, when the free-
men had £1 to pay besides that from which they now sought
exemption. He further observed that, as the introduction
of a clause as desired into some bill might endanger that
bill itself', he thought it would be better to defer the motion
until some occasion arose, or some new bill was in project to
which it might be attached ? (" No.")
Mr. Councillor G. H. LAWRENCE did not wish it to go
forth to the public that the parish officers were guilty of gross
and reprehensible conduct, because certain parties had not
paid the registration shilling. The parish officers could not
make them pay it. if they did not choose to pay it.
Mr. Alderman SnElf. begged to ask the 'town-clerk if any
person
had any right to mae any distinction between the
shilling and the poor-rates?
TheMavoit explained, that the statement was, that the
registration shilling had not been put in the tax bill.
Mr. Ald. Sums said that made his case much stronger.
Mr. councillor H. LAweßecE.—Why it is actually print-
ed in the bill.
The TowN-CLERK said the course of the collector would be
to demand one debt like the other : both were debts to the
parish ! It was stated that in that particular ward the bill
did not contain the demand of the shilling; why he did not
know.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN said, though it was a late
hour of the day, and the subject had been amply discussed
already, yet the interest he felt in that question was so great
that he could not consent to give a silent vote. He regarded
it as a question of not merely local interest, for it involved a
great principle. He could not persuade himself to view this
question in the narrow view in which it had been presented
by the gentleman who moved the proposition ; fur it was not
merely a qnestion of finance—a question whether 20s. should
be paid to the borough fund, for if that were the only interest
that the question possessed it would not be worth a moment's
discussion. But he might remark on that view of the subject,
taking that alone—that the householder, in older to obtain
his vote, must occupy premises at least of the value of £lO
year rent, when they considered that in addition he must pay
rates and taxes and Is. every year to time end of his life, for
being registered, fur which the freeman
orenemeaxn,esdvas calledu peonab
to
lifete7lrYo'ss v
hardship of the
the freemen was
lipsahym2oeis,.t,ontcoetianlkhis h
of
absurd. But lie disregarded that. The real of house sr
question was,
should they or should they not, as a council, indicate and de-
clare their approvalga.nd omicfup,el‘ocreenintiatcteqtriescence in the free-
man's rightga o
tfl:itineomthe enjoyment. of freedom, d the ptahyetyn ewnotaol
df the
mieeana'ns
dare their approval of that mode of voting, and give it as
their public opinion that in the estimation of
the council that
kind of franchise was wise and politic, and calculated to pro-
mote the true interests of the conu e
nun
y. The reform bill
was introduced to parliament fur the express purpose of
giving to property, as property, throughout the empire
Its proper degree of influence and authority in the ma-
nagement of the affairs of the nation. With that view
was a provision made calculated to give to the 11.0 house-
holder that power which arises out of the franchise. It was
part of the original bill brought in by Lord John Russell,
that the freemen's rights to vote should come to a speedy de-
termination; the persons in possession of the franchise
by freedom were to continue to retain it to the end of
their lives, but there were to be no new freedom. Whether
the inchoate tights were retained, he could not tell, but the
reform bill was intended to put an extinguisher on the right
of voting of freemen, and to establish one uniform, steady
qualification. That consisted of the payment of the rent and
taxes of premises of £lO a year value and one shilling a year
to liquidate the expense of the registration. They were
aware that the bill was thrown out of parliament on the mo-
tion of a celebrated individual, and perhaps that motion was
one of the most celebrated acts of his life—he meant General
Gascoigne, who then represented this town. An appeal was
in consequence made to the country- at large, and when par-
liament again assembled it was found necessary that the
freemen's right of voting, instead of being brought to a
speedy extinction, should be perpetuated as a matter of com-
promise, to secure the support or prevent the opposition of
some of the tories in the commons and the lords. The per-
petuation of the freemen's votes was the price paid for the
reform bill, and the elections which have taken place since
the reform bill came into operation, have afforded unanswer-
able proof that the tories were wise in their generation when
they continued the freemen's right to vote. Look at those
towns where they had not the light of voting. There were
towns enfranchised by the reform bill in England returning
64 members. The boroughs in Scotland might be consi-
dered as standing in this respect in the same condition as
the newly enfranchised townsin England—that is, they were
free from any contamination of any right of voting. They
consisted of a pure household constituency of persons that
had a stake and interest in the welfare of the nation—and
what was the consequence? Why, of those 86 members 64
or 65 were reformers, or four to one liberals returned by free
constituencies; and if they extended their inquiry to the
kingdom at large, this fact came out, that those places, for
the most part, where the corrupt constituencies were retained
by the reform bill—the potwalloppers and scot and lot voters
—as distinguished from the individuals enfranchised by the
new bill—the great majority of tot y members of the House
of Commons at the present moment were sitting there in
despite of the household constituency. (Dear.) It would
trot become him at that late hour to occupy much more of
their time, but the subject was an extremely interesting and
important one. It had been said that such a constituency as
that of which he had been speaking was venal and depen-
dent from its very position ; and again, it had been said that
it might to be retained to give to property its proper
influence in the management of the affairs of the country.
There was a falsity in this. The great object of the Reform
Bill was to restore, to purify, to give to property its becoming
influence. Property ought to have its influence. It was a
a principle of the Whig government that property should
have its influence; nay, more, it was impossible to deprive it
of it. It was one of those principles which was imposed on
human beings by the great artificer of society that property
should have its influence. It never was the wish of the re-
form party to deprive property of its influence. But the
question which they had to consider was this—should they
sanction a measureevhich would not give property its legiti-
mate, but lay an arrangement—the tendency of which was to
introduce venal and dependent voters—an undue and im-
proper influence. They were told that the influence of pro-
perty was that which the system he deprecated promoted.
Now look at county elections: There was in the-country an
analagous class of voters—the £5O. tenant.; at will. They
were a dependent class at the disposal of time owners of the
sail, merely men of straw. Now in the county constituency
there were men of that sort, and mark the result. With the
manufacturer there was in fact little or no power at all in the
decision of the county elections—he had no power contrasted
with the country squire, with perhaps his £2OOO. a year, who
was not always of the most intelligent class of gentlemen,
while the merchant, possessed perhaps of his £100,0004 and
deeply interested in the welfare of the country, was limited
to a single vote. It was therefore property not as property,
but a particular kind of property, that directed those venal
dependent voters. (Hear, hear.) And it was beyond all
question that men who derived most advantage from the
power given to themselves by that class of men were those
who least regarded the dictates of honour. and principle, and
conscience in their conduct towards others. It was no slan-
der to say that the landlords controlled the vote of the tenant,
for the leading publications of the tories avow it. The
Quarterly Review, amongst others, admits that the landlord
has a right to coerce the tenant, but the whip party more or
less repudiates it. But why was it that this town did not
express in the House of Commons the same sentiments as in
that room? Why bad they sent two tories to the House of
Commons, while a large majority of that room were of con-
trary opinions? Why, because they had retained those
corrupt freemen who were able to put down the pldia good