The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-02-23 00:00:00

N • Na
11 I 14: Ltv Pui `LARD

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alteration, that "they are impressed with the belief that the
government might deviie some means of providing for the de-
ticiency.''
Mr. Councillor BLACEncRN shortly after said, on second
thoughts, he would move that the concluding clause be altoge-
ther tted. He thought that would be sufficient without any
alteration.
Mr. Alderman SHIEL seconded the motion.
Mr. Councillor RamsnEN believed there could be no objec-
tion at all to this, for it was a clause on which there was a consi-
derable difference or npinimi.
The motion was then agreed to.
The MA Von said they now came to the vote whether the me-
morial as now altered be adopted?
Mr. Councillor H. LAWRENCE wi.hed to express his dissent
to many of the arrangements of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan; but
he did not wish to divide the council on the subject.
The Mayon presumed then, with the objection taken by
Mr.
Lawrence, the Memorial was unanimously passed. Agreed to.
It %vas then agreed to that the petition should he presented to
the Commons by the memoers for the borough and that in the
Lords it should be presented by Lord Brougham, and that Lord
Ashburtuu be respectfully- requested to support it.
FEES OF THE BoROCGH COURT, &C.
The TOWN-eLEitx said, under the municipal act the council
of the borough were required to settle the table of fees for the
clerk of the peace, the registrar of the borough court, and the
clerks of the magistrates. A letter had been received front Mr.
Phillips, on behalf of Lord John Russell, stating that his lord-
ship had sent tables of fees to the several borough councils ;
that he had received tables of fees front the officers of other
boroughs. lie now sent a set Of tables, to the council of Li-
verpool, with a request that they would take them into consi-
deration, and submit to his lordship the propriety (Stile charges,
either as shown by his own tables, or by the tables of the offi•
cers acting together fur the different boroughs. He suggested
that the tables be referred to the borough court committee.
It was then agreed to that the report should he referred to the
borough court's committee.
REPORT OP THE COURT of JUSTICES AND GAOL COMMITTEE.
The TOWN-CLERK read this report, in-which some alterations
were recommended in the prison discipline. Amongst other
things they recommended a restriction of visitors to vagrants in
gaol. By the present rules, vagrants are permitted a visitor at
the end of one calendar month, but the committee recommend
that no visitor be allowed until after the expiration of three
months; vagrants fur a less period than three months would
thereby. be prevented having any visitor whatever, but after the
first three months one visitor would be allowed monthly. In the
rule respecting visitors to debtors, an alteration was proposed
which would have the effect of preventing the admission of
visitors to debtors on Sundays altogether, unless by order of
justices in particular cases. The justices and the committee
also in their report recommended that the system of education
be immediately commenced at the Prison ; and in order to effect
this, they stated it would be necessary to fit up a school-room,
work-room, and dormitory, for the juvenile offenders. The sur-
veyor hail furnished a plan of those alterations, and estimates
the expense of which would be £ll5. The plan and estimate
the justices and committee recommended to the council for
adoption. They further reported, that under their direction, a
correspondence had taken place with the Secretary of State on
the subject of diminishing the expense of the removal of trans-
port convicts, and referred the council to extracts from a letter
add..essed by the Clerk of the Peace to the Secretary of State,
on the 23d December last, and from the reply of Mr. Phillipps
thereto, dated therlOth iustant, which explained the hearing of
the question. The extracts read were nearly as follows :—First,
the Clerk of the Peace to the Secretary of State. " Your lord-
ship is aware from the claim made on 'the government by the
corporation for the expenses of the removal of convicts to the
port of einbarkatien how heavy that expenditure is; and. it is
with a view to diminish this charge upon the country that I am
directed now to apply to your lordship.
" The number of trausport convicts removed irom this bo-
rough during the year, from the Ist July, 15.36, to he 30th June,
1837. is 155, and the cost of and attending the removal 1:621175.
lam informed that the number of transpott convicts removed
from the count-of Lancaster (including this borough) averages
500 a year."

" I nut so instructed, that vessels are from time to time char-
tered from this port for the use of goveroment, in the convey-
ance or transports from Dublin, and
,other ports in Ireland;
and that such vessels leave this port in a complete state, and fit
for the immediate reception of convicts."
state these circumstances with a view of bringing before
your lordship n,r consideratioh, whether au arrangement is prac-
ticable or advisable, making the port of Liverpool a place of
embarkation fur the county of Lancaster; and for such of the
adjoining counties as it may be deemed expedient to include in
the arrangements; or in connexion with the present establish-
ment, in the ports of Ireland. The scheme, if practicable, ap-
pears to hold out the prospect of a great saving in expenditure."
"S. PHILLIPS, KSQ., To THE MA Yost.
" Dated Whitehall, 14tli Feb. 18.38.
" With reference to the removal of prisoners under sentence
of transportation, I am to inform vou, that Lord John Russell
thinks the making Liverpool the place of embarkation for pri-
soners from the county of Lancaster would be open to many
objections, as well on the ground of inconvenience as of in-
creased expense; and he cannot therefore recommend such a
measure. In older to relieve those horciughs in which a rate
in the, nature of a county rate is raised, the i-overnment has
agreed to reimburse them the amount expended in the convey-
"ance of prisoners under sentence of transportation; and Lord
John Russell concludes, that the borough of Liverpool enjeys
the benefit of this arrang,..nient. The government has a plan
under consideration for taking into their own hands the convey-
ance of prisoners under sentence of transportation, by which all
boroughs will be relieved from any charge for this service."
The report further stated, that the justices and tbe cummittee
had taken into consideration a communication of the 15th inst.
from the secretary of state to the mayor, on the important sub-
ject of the erection of a new prison, and of the extensive altera-
tion, additions, and improvements &ready approved of by the
council with respect to the present buildings, together with the
report of Captain debt) and of the law officers of the crown on
separate confinement; and that they had appointed a suh-corn.
mittee to draw up a reply to that- communication and report,
and would again bring the subject before the council at their
meeting on the 7th of March. They-then went on to report,
that an application haii been made from John Martindale, in-
gTilillibe-iA-Chg fines, and they reconitnended that some al-
lowance should be made, on security being given by the inspec•
for for the due discharge of his duty in the collection.
The :MAYOR then observed, perhaps the council would adopt
the report as tar as would be mentioned by the Town-clerk,
omitting certain parts.
The TOWN-CLERK said the subject which was already fully
before the council, was the alteration in the rules of the gaol.
It had been recommended by the justices and approved by the
secretary of state.
The M A von, as a matter of form, would put the question,
whether the rules be approved and adopted, when
Mr. BLACKBURN inquired whether it was necessary, in point
of fact, that the council should give its sanctiou to thew.
The TowN-cesuk replied in the affirmative.
Mr. BLACKBURN would then ask, was it lair that the council
should be called upon to give its sanction to such rules on merely
bearing them once read over. They could out give an enlight-
ened and intelligent sanction to them without having other
means of becoming familiar with them. He must admit, that
he could not conscientiously give a sanction to them till he knew
what they were. Their giving a sanction to the rules of course
implied, that they recommended them. He should, therefore,
propose, that the confirmation be postponed to the next meet-
ing till they had considered them. Ile felt the importance of
this rule on former occasions, but haii been unwilling to appear
fastidious or factious; but he thought it desirable, that they
should take some means of obtaining access to the reports of the
magistrates, which were very important. By the proposed rtkle,
vagrants were not permitted a visitor until after the expiration
of three mouths, and he inquired whether that was an absolute
rule, or whether the justices had power to dispense with it.
That rule snowed the necessity that they should have a know-
ledge of what they sanctioned. He owned his own inability to
give au intelligent sanction to such rules without knowing what
they were.
The TOWN-CLERK replied, that the justices had the power in
all cases of granting orders for the admission of visitors.
Mr. BLACKBURN was desirous that the council should give
an enlightened and intelligent sanction, and he thought no in-
convenience could result from the delay of the confirmation
until that day fortnight.
The MAYOR said, perhaps Mr. Blackburn would permit the
Town-clerk.
The TowN-cemix said that means had been taken to put the
members in possession of printed copies of the gaol regulations,
after which they had agreed to a report which he read, and which
related to the Sunday visiting of debtors, and the ill effects of
any interruption of divine service, and also the restriction of
visitors to vagrants and criminals. In consequence of those
reports, made su long since as the 22nd Nov., those rules had
been adopted and sent for the approval of the Secretary of State,
which had ended in his lordship fully approving of the altera-
tions in these rules. Every care had been taken to have the
council fully instructed respecting them.
Mr. BLACKBURN again inquired whether in all cases whatever
the visiting justices hail power to dispense with the rules relating
to the visiting of prisoners.
The Mayon replied--certainly. All the members of the
council had power to refer to the reports of the justices; it
would be attended with some inconvenience if the rules were not
passed.
Mr. BLACKBURN then withdrew his amendureut, and the
rules received the confirmation of the council.
The Towai-cLeek said the next subject was the proposed im-
provements in the school-room, workroom, and durriiitoiy, the
expense of a hich will be about £145: •
The Ma-vou put this question; which also received the sanc-
tion of the council.
The TOWN ci.kne said the next subject was the removal of
transport convicts. The council was, now in possessiou of the
letter from himself to the Secretary of State, and the reply
thereto.
Mr. Councillor J. N. WOOD said it appeared from what the
Town-clerk had said, that unless they had a borough rate they
could not be relieved from the expense of the transmission of
convicts.

The TowN-crEnK said he had stated that was an objection,
but it must give way.
Mr. Councillor J. N. WOOD.—Will the council be relieved
lions the expense?
The TOW N 4 t.ERK thought the objection that they ought first
to have a borough rate was out tenable; and that they should
get ever it.

" Mr. Councillor J. N. Woon.—Lord John Russell has nut
expressly stated his objections.
The TOWN-CLERIC.-NO; his objections are general.
Mr. Ci7altlE thought the answer of Lord John Rusiell was
not one that they could sit down dissatisfied with. It was due
to them to be relieved from the payment of this transport loo-
ney ; even though they had no borough rate it ought not to Nu
on limn. Anil, although Lord John Russell might say that it
was inexpedient, fir reasons which he did not take the trouble
to state. they had a right to expect that ships should be fitted
up het e for tie conveyance of convicts to Cork, in order that
their expenses might he as light as possible. The sum for con-
veyine: convicts to Woolwich, which they were at the expense
of, was as large as from 1:-Irio £4-101. per head: and he hoped a
proper representation would be made, so that some alteration
should he effected, and that the Town-clerk would nut intermit
in his exertion to have it remedied.

Mr. EA i.e said Lord John Russell pretended to be a reform-
ing minister. but that did not give then► a favourable ()pillion of
him as a reformer, and be hoped the county magistrates would
take up the subject, for it would be as great a relief to the
county es the borough, and prevent the continua►ice of the Pre-
sent s% stem of sending S(R) couviets into the count, y merely to
.eive the London shipowners—Mr. Young and others-.
M Eouneillor Bruar said it was more economical to send
convict/ ships front here than from Ireland;. and if there was a
tender to be made, he certainly would tender for £2 a head less
for any ship of hiQ, or env merchant's to stall from Liverpool
rather tbarn from Cork. The same ts mil which 'carried time ves-
sel out to Cork would carry it out to ;ea ; and for want of that
wind afterwards the vessel might be/ detained • some time at
Cork.

The Tows:•cr.Euk said the k.rrns used by Lord John Russell
were, t hat. be thought that Dia ing Liverpool a p!ace of embark-
ation fur transpurts would be inconvenient as well as expeusi e.
Mr.Councillor BIBBY.—Tben he is in error.
Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE said he was instructed
that English convicts were not sent.to Cork; that only Irish

~~~-~-~-

convicts were sent there. But they ought to secure the shipping
from this port as much as possible.
The MA you said he might observe that the answer of Lord
John if ussell was very unsatisfactoi y to the bench of magis-
trates, and if the council was also of that opinion they would
perhaps refer it back to the bench of magistrates, and CllllllllU'
nicate that opinion to them, for the Town-clerk to confer with
Lord John Russell respecting it.
Mr. Alderman SHELL said the present system appeared the
most objectionable that could be imagined. Convicts were now
sent from Liverpool to Woolwich, or Portsmouth, or Plymouth,
and then round the island of Great Britain, fur no other reason
that he could discern but to increase expense. • The convicts
might easily be sent to Dublin. The present was the most ex-
pensive and inconvenient mode that could be adopted, and he
could not understand any principle that could produce it except
to :Assist some "jobbing" concern in or near London. For he
could not tiud men acting so absurdly or so contrary to common
sense without some motive.
Mr. Alderman Ben n moved that the subject be referred back
to the justices and the gaol committee, the reply of Lord John
Bussed being unsatisfactory.
Mr. Councillor WOOD seconded the motion, which was unani-
mously adopted.
The TowN-cLEttic then said, passing over the next subject,
he would call the attention of the council to the recommendation
to allow Martindale some remuneration for his additional ser-
vices in the collection of tines. A memorial was read from
Martindale, and a recommendation from Mr. Hall, stating
that he had collected the dues with notch diligence and activity.
The application was refer red to the finance committee.
ERECTION OF A NEW BOROUGH Gaot..
The TOWN-GI-6RK than read a letter received from Mr. Phil-
lipps, on behalf of Lord John Russell, dated the 15th instant,
in which it was stated that his lordship bad received a very full
and satisfactory report, upon the state of the Borough God, Rion
Captain Jetib, who was directed by his lordship to inspect the
gaol, and communicate with the mayor and the visiting justices.
Also that his lordship had directed that a copy of Captain Jebb's
report he •transmitted to time mayor, with the request that he
would submit it to the town-council for their consideration; par-
tecularly requesting their attention to that part of the report, in
which Captain Jebb stwes his opinion that all the interests
concerned would, in the end, he best studied, were the local
authorities to regard the occupation of the present gaol, and the
contract with the county for the custody of sonic of their prison-
ers, as temporary measures, and set iously to entertain the
question of building a new prison, on an improved principle, as
soon as any existing ilifficulties may be removed." The letter
further stated, that Cant. Jehb had informed Lord John Rus-
sell that the council were adVised that some donuts might be
entertained as to the legality of the individual separation of pi i-
sutlers ; and that his lordship thought it might be satisfactory to
the council to receive a-cody ',Pan opinion of the law officers of
the crown upon a case submitted to them, as to the power 'date
secretary of state to sanction regulations submitted to him for
applovai, which provided for the individual separation or prison-
ers. The letter requested the mayor-to bring before the council
the 'subject vitich now most immediately presses, namely, the
temporary alterations, which are necessary, previously to the
building of a new gaol.
The TowN-ciAttic than read Captain Jebb's report relative
to the Borough Gaol, which he had addressed from Birmingham
to Mr. Phillipps, on the Gth of January last, as follows :
" Sir,-1 have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your
letter of the Nth ultimo, enclosing copies of a correspondence
which has taken place relative to the Borough Gaol at Liver-
pool, and conveying the orders of Lord John Russell that)
should visit the gaol, and report upon it with reference to the
several statements contained in the letters which have passed
upon the subject.

-"In reply I beg to state that, in compliance with his lord-
ship's wish, I obtained an interview with Captain Williams, the
inspector of prisons for the northern district, previous to leaving
London,. who personally gave me all the information in his
power; and I than took the earliest opportunity, which toy
duties in connexion with other boroughs permitted, of proceed-
ing to Liverpool. I there wailed upon the mayor, who was
good enough to accompany me to the gaol, and to afford we
every facility for inspecting it, and at his request 1 subsequently
attended a special meeting of the .visiting justices, at which a
copy of t 6elasi general report of the adjourned Quarter Sessions,
(held by the justices on the sth December, 1837,) relative to
the prison, was placid in toy hands, as a document essential to
the consideration of the question. I afterwards inspected the
New Bailey Prison at Kilkdale, to which a proportion of the
male pristmers from the borough are committed under a contract
with the county.
" I now beg to submit for his lordship's consideration the re-
sult of my inquiries. The following appear to me to be the
main puhrts embraced by the eorrespondenCe, viz.:—
lst. Whether the construction and present state of the
Borough Gaol is such as will admit of au efficient system o
prison discipline being enforced—or whether it is capable of
being altered with a view to improvement in discipline, or so
enlarged as to accommodate all the prisoners committed within
the jurisdiction of the borough; involving also the question of
building a new gaol?
"2d. Whether any or what difficulties stand in the way of,
or are likely to impede, the erectiou of a new gaol, should the
local authorities be disposed to build one ; and whether any
misapprehension exists as to the nature or extent of those diffi-
culties, as effecting the period within which a new gaol might
Le ready for the reception of prisoners?
"31. Whether the alterations ;and additions proposed to the
Borough Gaol, are absolutely required for present purposes, and
whether the outlay of a large sum of money upon them might
not affect the question of building a new prison, which is stated
to be extremely desirable

Report. With reference to the first question, as to whether
the construction of the Borough Gaol will admit of au efficient
system of prison dicipline being carried into affect, or whether
it can be altered. or whether it would be more.expedient to
build a new one ; I beg to state that the present building having
originally been laid out, with a view to the application of a sys-
tem based on a classification of prisoners, the general arrange-
ment and disposition of the several parts of it, and .of the inte-
rim, are such as will only admit of certain modifications of that
system being carried into effect.
"The discipline now in force is an approximation to the
silent system, and I have much pleasure in stating, in confir-
mation of the report made to his lordship its November last,
as extend for enforcing it, ap-
peared to be carried on in a very satisfactory 'manner, ...id that
the interest taken by the visiting justices in the affairiof the
prison, baCked as it has been, by the vigilance and activity of
a very able governor, has produced those tavourable results on
the general management of it which might be expected.
" The means, however, do nut exist for carrying out this sys-
tem with proper effect. and, to a considerable extent, the evils
which confessedly arise from the association of prisoners are
of necessity imposed and submitted to.
" Iu support of this assertion, it will only be necessary to ad-
vert to the fact td there having been 44-1 prisoners in confine'.
ment at one period its the last year, and 4-13 at another period
in the preceding Year, and that the total number of cells in all
the different wards, for their separate confinement by night, which, it will be admitted. is indispensable to any rational sys-
tem of discipline, is only 3.54. But this evil will present itself
in a still strobger light, if reference is made to the accompany-
ing return, (Appendix A,) which shows the disposition of the
prisoners at the period first alluded to (the 26th Aug.; 1837,)
and the occupation of the cells that day, which it appears was as
follows, viz.:—
CLASS.

PRISONERS. CELLS
27 confined in 14
49
69
...... 32

36

Total Prisoners, 321

Cells, 163

and that the remainder of the remainder of the cells wen; dia.
posed of as followi
ISS. PRISONERS. CELLS.

21
10
12 40
20_ 27
13 and 11

123 191
" The former statement showing that 321 prisoners were
placed in,163 cells, and the latter that 123 prisoners might have
confined in separate cells, and that 68 cells or more might have
been vacant; forcibly exhibiting a practical inconvenience,
arising partly out of the construction of the building, and partly
front the system of classification which causes some wards to be
crow led to excess whilst others are comparatively unoccupied.
But even where prisoners are lodged in separate cells, there
exists in this prison the utmost facility of communicating
through large ventilation holes, which open from each cell into
the narrow passage which runs'between them ; by making use
of which a conversation might be kept up almost in a whisper.
In either case, therefore, there is a limit to that unrestricted in-
tercourse which it is so desirable to interdict.
" From a consideration of these facts'it Would appear that to
carry on any system of prison discipline worthy of an enligtened
nation, the present Borough Gaol would require to be so en-
larged as to'afford the means of separate confinement by uight
of all the prisoners within it, making alsd that dUe allowance of
surplusaccommodation which an adherence to the existing sys-
tem of classitkation might render necessary; it would be re-
quisite also. to alter the mode of -ventilating the cells, so as to
cut off the,cummunicat ion between thesis, afforded by the preseut
. -
" The former difficulty, With respect to numbers, migl.t,
however, be partially obviated' by making some alterations at
Kirkdate, and sending a larger proportion of the borough
prisoners there, and it would be lessened in the event of any
arrangement being,niade, which would relieve the gaol {'rout the
custody of the juvenile class • of offenders and the debtors, and
this would undoubtedly lie the cheapest course.
" But however it might recommend itself on that account,
it dues not appear that such would be the only point of view in
which it would be regarded be the council of Liverpool.
e• It will be gratifying to his lordship to observe that what-
ever desire there may be to ecmointse the funds placed at their
disposal, yet there reigns in that influenti.il body a paramount
feeling on the important sublect of prison discipline. and that.
there exists au anxious desire fur an amelioration of the present
system.

The views of the council and the visiting justices on this
subject are recorded in the following resolution, extracted fri.in
the geueriil report of the a ljourned quarter sessions, held on
the 5.11 ultimo, viz.:—

" First resolution of the council at a special meeting held on
the 9th of August, 1837:—That the council are fully aware of
.the ineffieFency and even injurious -effect of the present system
of prison disci phne, however well that system may be conducted.
They regret the increase of crime, especially of juvenile delin-
quency, and fee: grateful to .her majesty's ministers for the at-
tention they have given to the subject. • They are anxious to
express their earnest desire for the amelioration of prison dis-
cipline. whirls they consider essential to civic economy, and to
the weird' e and security of all classes of the community : and
for the furtherance of this abject, they solicit a fresh survey or
the Borough Prison for the purpose of effecting such altera-
tions, as will adopt it to the contemplated- improved system."
"On reading this resolution at the court held by the justices
on the sth ultimo, it %vast esolved :—` That this court is seriously
impressed with the injurious. consequences of the preserilsys-
tem of discipline. and are anxious for its amelioration. They
are anxious at the slime time to avoid any unnecessary expense,
and would therefore respeett'olly request the council to apply to
the secretary oist ate, to again cause a fresh survey to be made
of the prison, as it is now in's very different state froth that in
whit h it was when first surveyed.'

" FIMII the expression of such enlightened opinions; I am led
to infer that any outlay which may he necessary for prison pur-
poses at Liverpool will he regarded On the broad principle of
.the benetioial results whirl,- may he expected to follow, rather
than the comparative expense wilich may be regarded, for con-
' tinning and estalrlishing one system which is considered itieffi-
'cient. instead of adopting the requisite measures forsubstitutiug
another, the merits of which are now highly appreciated.
"The question therefore arises,—What are the most practi-
cable and economical means of carrying those views into effect, -
by the substitution of the separate system'of confinement, which
I presume to be that alluded to, fur the Luixed system which
Present ciuntnstances entails ?