The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-12-03 00:00:00

kLLEGED DELAY IN THE WORKS

The proceedings of the last meeting having been read. Mr
►:VANS said he would ask Mr. Hartley one or two questions

in consequence of remarks having been made by a nimbi
of that committee, with regard to the di

; a, -tueen's Graving Dock ; and also wits
regard to one or two lines of sheds at the north end. FL
wished to know what was the cause of the alleged delay, o
why the works had not been expedited as much as possible.
The SußvErou. replied, that with regard to Brunswicl
Dock there had been no delay whatever. So much dependec
upon the state of the tides that the work could not go or
quicker.

ay in the stmt.

o as to the (

Mr. CHAPMAN observed that the work had been going on
for two or three years and was not completed yet.
The SURVEYOR described the present state of the work,
and showed that it was impossible to go on quicker ; but he
spoke in so low a tone that we were unable to hear his words.
Mr. EVANS asked whether since the beginning there had
been any time lost?

The .LTRITEYOR said that no time had been lost, seeing
that a great variety of alterations had been made.

Mr. CHAPMAN.—The original plan has not been ad.
bared to?
The SURVEYOII..—No.
Mr. CHAPAIA.N.—How long has the work been in hand
The SURVEYOR..—Abort two years.

Mr. CHAPATAN.----Suppose the original design to have been
kept to, and the work expedited for the purpose of opening,
what time would it have taken ?

The SURVEYOR.—Perhaps a few months less
Mr. EVANS inquired whether the alteration
had been made for the sake of amendment ?
The SURVEYOR replied in the affirmative. It was at first
intended to be a dry basin. As to the South Graving Dock
the engines were all ready, and a boiler would be put down
in about a fortnight. As to the sheds, there was nothing at
all to be done. Any body going to the place would certainly
suppoSe the work was standing, but that was not the case :
all was ready to go on the moment a cargo of stone arrived,
which he expected in about a fortnight.
Some conversation followed with reference to a delay that
had taken place in the works at the sheds, and which the
Surveyor accounted for by saying he did not understand the
order to have passed the general committee. The SECRE-
TARY at the request of Mr. Evans, read the order alluded
to, which was dated the 13th May, and was to the effect that
the sheds at the east and south ends of Waterloo Dock be
proceeded with as early as might be convenient. Mr. EVANS
contended that the words " as early as may be convenient "
justified the surveyor. The committee seemed to be of the
came opinion, and after the Surveyor had undertaken to make
a report of tile number of yards of sheds he had erected since
May last, and also within the last twelve months, the con-
versation dropped.

GENERAL BUSINESS

alluded to

Messrs. Davenport and Grindrod's tender to erect two
cranes on the north quay of George's Dock was accepted.
The tender of Mr. Thomas Hague to erect the proposed
transit sheds west of Prince's Dock, being the lowest of
twelve sent in, was accepted.
Tile Sub-Committee for the department of the Marine
Surveyor reported that during the night of the 16th Novem-
ber, the Bell beacon had been run foul of by the ship Re-
porter (as we understood), and damaged. A letter was or-
dered to be written to the owners of th vessel, holding them
responsible for the damage.
The widow of a man belonging to the Point of Ayr life-
boat, who had been unfortunately drowned whilst going to a
wreck, was presented with £lO.
The duplicate light-ship Meteor was reported to be now
moored in the- Sloyhe ready for active service.
Applications from Messrs. Robert Clarke and Son, and
Messrs. W. B. Jones and Co., shipbuilders, stating that
their establishments must be abandoned in consequence of
the intended dock improvements, and pointing out other
plots suitable for their purpose which they requested to
have, were referred to the Surveyor.
The CHAIRMAN stated that a memorial from the Man-
chester potatoe merchants, forwarded through Mr. Locke,
had been referred to Mr. Askew, who was making some ar-
rangement; for their accommodation.
A letter was ordered to be written to the Liverpool and
Manchester Railway Company, informing them that the rail-
way near Queen's Dock had not yet been removed, and call-
ing upon them to fulfil their engagement.
On the application of the agent of the Dundalk Steam-
packet Company, the end of ; shed at the north-east end
of Clarence Basin was ordered to be boarded up.

THE YEW DOCK PLANS.
The CHAIRMAN said that the general business being con-
cluded, probably the committee would call i❑ the harbour
masters and dock masters for examination upon the several
dock plans.
Mr. Cu APMAN enquired whether other nautical men would
be allowed to give their opinion ?
The CrIAIRMAN said certainly. and not only nautical men,
but it was the pleasure of the committee that some civil en-
gineer should be examined.
Mr. TOBIN thought that question had never come regu-
larly before the committee. He had heard it stated at the
last meeting, that the committee had determined to take the
opinion of an eminent engineer, but it was the very first time
he had heard of any such determination.
The CHAIRMAN said, that perhaps he might have gone a
little too far in saying so ; but he took it for granted that the
committee would not only examine their own servants, hut
go to London for opinions. That he knew was the wish
of several gentlemen upon the committee, Mr. Horsfall
among the number, and therefore he took the liberty of say-
ing so. Whether he said the committee had so determined he
did not remember.
Mr. AIKEN was glad that Mr. Tobin had mentioned the
subject, because he felt considerable hesitation in saying that
there was a necessity of asking the opinions of engineers.
No fault was found with Mr. Hartley's plans as regarded the
engineering, or the effect to be produced, or with the
strength and general security of the walls ; but it was urged
that the space of water and quay would not be equal to that
which was suggested out of doors. Upon that subject he
held that the parties to be examined, and parties in-
terested in the town, were quite as able to judge as
the best engineer in the country. In fact the question
became solely one of the facility of working vessels. On this
subject he could not imagine that an engineer unacquainted
with the locality and with the systems of trade could give the
committee any information. If, upon the other hand, they
were likely, by getting the opinions of eminent surveyors to
satisfy those out of doors, it would be well ; but be did not
see why they should do so at all, because, after all, fault was
not found with the engineering plan, or the arrangements for
working ships. He did not see how the opinion of able en-
gineers would affect the question between the associated bodies
and the committee.

The Cu AIRMAN explained what he had said with reference
to consulting engineers of eminence.

Mr. Nica said he understood the chairman to have said
there was a very great disposition in the committee to consult

The CHAIRMAN
ranted.

—I did say so, and I think I was war-

Mr. Nicol, did not take exactly the same views of this
question as Mr. Aiken. When the discussion of this matter
first commenced, he was aware that the engineering part of
the work had been thoroughly examined before a committee
of the Houie of Commons, but he did not find that the gene-
ral plan of the dock had been made a subject of enquiry in
any other form. It did not appear that other engineers be-
sides Mr. Hartley had been consulted as to the general plan
and usefulness of the dock itself. But Mr. Aiken said the
committee were as good judges of the matter as any able
engineer. He agreed very much with Mr. Aiken in that,
but the committee themselves were much divided upon it,
and sfrs many associations having come forward and found
faul% with the plans framed by Mr. Hartley, it must be sa-
tisfactory to Mr. Hartley and to the committee to have other
opinions.

Mr. HORSFALL said his view was to obtain the very best
advice that the country afforded. As Mr. Chapman had ob-
served, if there was any error at all, it was in design, and it
was desirable, therefore, to have the best opinions upon the
design itself. It would be quite wrong if they did not take
the best advice they could obtain ; and he would suggest that
at least two engineers of the highest eminence be invited.

Mr. EvANs quite agreed with Mr. Aiken that the commit-
tee were better judges of the actual working of the several
plans than any engineer. He had nothing to apprebend from
the opinions of engineers except the well known feeling that
when you called them in, they were always excessively origi-
nal and anxious to interpolate something of their own that
might leave some mark of the necessity or utility of their
being employed. He had no apprehension of any thing else
than that; but in ail likelihood the committee would call in
men who would not be actuated by that feeling.
Mr. TOBIN said it came to this—that by Mr. Gage's plan
they would be, fora long time, reducing their dock room, whilst
by the present one, that of Mr. Hartley, they might have all
the facilities they required in five or six months he under-
stood.

Mr. CRAPMAN.—In five or six months—the new dock?
Mr. IloasFALL.—No, the Canning Dock.
Mr. CHAPMAN said it was closed.
Mr. ToBIN begged pardon. As the docks were crowded,
if the committee could get those which were now closed com-
pleted, a great deal of time would be saved ; but if they agreed
to Mr. Gage's plans, they must submit to be without an ad-
ditional dock for at least five years.

Mr. CHAPMAN said, the first question was whether they
should confine themselves to the present site. It was quite
impossible for the committee to entertain the extended plans
of Mr. Gage ; and the fault of Mr. Hartley, if there was
any, was one of design. If the work had been solely one of
execution, he did not know any man in the country whom he
would trust sooner than Mr. Hartley •, but the question was
one of design, and in that he thought Mr. Hartley wrong.

The very entrances showed that. Mr. Chapman ccincludeCl
by urging upon the committee the necessity of calling in
engineers and men of nautical experience.
Mr. BULLEY apprehended from what had passed on Mon-
day that the committee were pledged to call in assistance.
Mr. AIKIN said that no engineer or engineers, however emi-
nent, could enter at once into the wants and wishes of the pub-
lic, or into those points which were of the greatest advantage
to the trade of Liverpool. It was impossible for any engineer
coining strange to know how the trade was working, the
changes that hadtaken place, or those which might be expected.
When he came down it would require a great deal of time,
and it would be a work of considerable difficulty, to impress
upon him the nature of the trade as it had been, and as it
was likely to be. Unless he knew the absolute routine of
trade he could not know the description of accommoda-
tion which was wanted. Mr. Aiken concluded some com-

ments upon Mr. Gage's plans, by observing that in theory
and on paper they did seem very pretty, yet when their
practical working was really gone into, Mr. Hartley's plans
proved to be decidedly the best.
Mr. Nicol, said there was a good deal of force in what Mr.
Aiken had said ; but he was of opinion that Mr. Walker, and
other engineers, who had come down here upon public works,
would not make up their minds to any alteration or change
in Mr. Hartley's plans without obtaining all the evidence
they could upon the working of the docks.
Mr. HORSFALL remarked, that much of what Mr. Aiken

had said must be laid before the engineers. They must be
informed that warehouses were indispensable, and that they
must not lay before the committee any plan that would injure

The CiininyAN suggested that it would be better, in the

,- .._..... ___
examination of the witnesses, to have it clearly understood
that the preservation of the warehouses was essential, and

that they must give all their evidence with reference to that.
This suggestion, after a few observations from several
members, was adopted.
The CHAIRMAN having read a list of the Harbour and
Dock Masters in waiting to give their testimony, it was ar-
ranged that they should all be present at once.
Mr. RIPLEY inquired whether the committee were going
to confine themselves to the additional dock only, or the
general plan of Mr. Gage ?
The CHAIRMAN replied, the plan which comprised the
space of the parliamentary site.
Mr. TOBIZ4 supposed the horse shoe plan was intended for
fishing boats, for long vessels could not go up to the wharf.
Mr. EVANS.—And how can you work them at the ware-
houses ?

The CLIAIRMAN said, the principle of the discussion was,
that the warehouses must be preserved.
Mr. AIKEN thought the officers should be examined with
reference to Mr. Gage's large plan, as tint had been recom-
mended by a large portion of the associated bodies.
Mr. CHAPMAN said, that was not the question. If the
large plan was practicable, they must go to parliament for a
fresh act and to obtain more money, therefore that was not the
question. The question was, the site for one or the other of
the plans for which they had an act.

Mr. AIKEN said, that was the very strongest reason that
could be adduced in his favour. The associated boidies had
adopted Mr. Gage's large plan, therefore if they got rid of
that they would be clearing so much of the way.

Mr. HORSFALL asked the Surveyor how long it would
take to execute Mr. Gage's large plan
Mr. H ARTLPY replied that he I

int seen it

"Mr. EloasrALt
s«•er the q

id of course Mr. Hartley could not an-
tion if he had not seen the plan, but it was most

:I,_" can yo.o deprive the