The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-08-31 00:00:00

filiptrial Varitailient

HOUSE OF LORDS.—THURSDAY
The House of Lords did not sit to-day.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-THURSDAY

Mr. ROEBUCK said that seeing the noble lord the Foreign
Secretary in his place, he wished to ask a question relating
to the detention of Mr. M'Leod by the American govern-

It was known that the reason of Mr

M Leod'

detention was in consequence of the part he had taken in ti

affair of the Caroline steamer. He begged the house to re-
collect that after M`Leod had been arrested a communica-
tion was opened between Mr. Fox and Mr. Forsyth. He
wished, therefore, toknow if, as there bad been an alteration
in the American government, any change had taken place in
the situation and state of affairs relating to Mr. M‘Leod's
case? In short, he wished to know what communication
had taken place between her majesty's government and that
of the United States on the subject. He wished to hear
what reasons the noble lord could offer to justify the reten-
tion of Mr. M`Leod. .

Lord PALMERSTON considered it was very irregular to
preface questions hon. members might put to the government
with arguments likely to lead to a debate, He had no ob-
jection to state that her Majesty's government had done
everything in their power to preserve the honour of this
country, and protect the safety of a subject—(hear)—and he
had the satisfaction of being able to inform the house, that

the government of the United States had given instructions to
the Attorney General to proceed in a manner perfectly in ac-
cordance with the law of nations. The noble lord then read
the correspondence which had taken place between Mr. Fox,
the British Minister, Mr. Webster, and Mr. Forsyth. Her
Majesty's government entirely approved of the conduct of
Mr. Fox, and they were decidedly of opinion that the attack
on the Caroline was in consequence of the order of the
government, carried into effect by military officers of the
government, and in all respects must be treated a public and
not a private act. (Hear.) The attack on the Caroline was
a national act, and raised a question between nations whether
an individual could be brought before the ordinary tribunals
of the country under such circumstances. The noble lord
then referred to several authorities regarding international
rights and privileges. The hon. member said on the outset
of the affair a special ambassador ought to have been sent to
the United States ; he did not think so; it was better to
leave the question to the good sense and justice of that coun-
try ; and it would now be better not to enter into any spe-
culation as to what the future conduct of America might be.
(H ear.)

In answer to a question by Sir C. NAPIER,
Lord PALMERSTON said he had received a letter from
Lord Ponsonby, informing him that the government of the
Sublime Porte had agreed to make good all the losses in-
curred by the siege of Acre. - .

The adjourned debate on the address was resumed by Lord
SANDON, who contended that the late Parliament had not
been dissolved upon the question of the import duties, but
rather upon the want of confidence in the general policy of
the ministers of the country. He thought they were not
justified in going into the discussion of the measures pro-
posed by the government, until the verdict of the last Parlia-
ment, as to their want of confidence in ministers, was sanc-
tioned or otherwise, by the present House of Commons ; un-
til that verdict was decided upon, and if sanctioned until a
change of ministry should take place, he thought they would
be doing their duty to their constituents by refusing to con-
sider any of these questions. For these reasons he should
rote for the amendment. _ _ _ _

Mr. M. GrnsoN,in supporting the address, said that so
great was the distress throughout the country, and so great
would become the general discontent if not relieved, that not
only the repeal of the corn laws, but also the repeal of all
other protective duties, would be forced upon the right hon.
baronet (Sir R. Peel) soon after he should succeed to power.
He was prepared to support the proposition of an Bs. fixed
duty on corn, in the hope that hereafter they might be en-
abled to send the Bs. after the rest ; for he looked upon corn
received in exchange for our manufactures as much our own
produce as if it were grown in England. He deprecated the
course which it was said hon. gentlemen on the other side
meant to pursue, for it would be showing a want of respect
to the country to decline the discussion of questions of such
vital importance to its best interests ; and it would be said
that the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) bad given instruc-
tions to his supporters not to speak upon them, lest the
country should get an idea what it had to expect should the
conservatives accede to power.
Mr. BORTHWICK supported the amendment, and said the
real question before the house was, as to which party in the
house could carry out these important measures, which had
been so often adverted to, with the greatest likelihood of
bringing them in a practical shape into successful operation.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN defended the conduct of the govern-
ment, and declared his intention, as an Irish member, anxious
to declare the gratitude of his country to the present ministry
for nearly the whole of their conduct towards' Ireland, to
oppose the amendment moved by the hon. member for the
west riding of Yorkshire.
Colonel SIBTHORP congratulated the house and the coun-
try that the period had at last arrived when the present
ministry were about to meet the reward of all their vices and
misdeeds, and to be drummed out of their seats to a tune
which the forms of the house prevented him from more for-
cibly alluding to. (A laugh.) The present government had
raised the cry of cheap bread and cheap sugar for the mere
purpose of humbugging the people, and the whole of their
appointments had been of the most profligate character.
Mr. POWER advocated the gradual modification of restric-
tive duties, and supported the address.
Mr. E. TURNER contended that the house could never
hope for a more favourable opportunity of settling the ques-
tion of the corn laws favourably to the landed interests. He
did not know that a fixed duty would give the people cheap
bread, but he felt quite sure it would give them bread when
they required it.
Mr. Escorr did not consider it right to enter on the con-
sideration of questions of vital interest to the country, while
he perceived a ministry persevering in holding office in de-
fiance of parliament and the constitution. The hon. mem-
ber for Bath had taunted the conservatives for the use they
had made of the poor-law upon the hustings, and if it had
been so used he was willing to join in the censure thrown out
by the hon. member ; but, at the same time, it was to be re-
membered that hon. gentlemen on the ministerial side of the
house were in the habit of holding up the conservatives as
starvers of the poor. The hon. gentleman asserted that mi-
nisters had committed the sovereign by a course of conduct
for which no parallel could be found in the annals of the
country for a period of two hundred year,. He then ex-
pressed his confidence in Sir R. Peel, and said that he would
feel proud to support him, should he (the right hon. baronet)
be called by his sovereign to the administration of the affairs
of the nation. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that an appeal
had been made to the country on the questions of the corn,
sugar, and timber duties, and yet, on the very first discus-
sion of these questions, it was attempted to be said that
they had no right to discuss them while the present Ministry
remained in office—a doctrine which, he must say, he then
heard for the first time. He thought that honourable gen-
tlemen on the other side of the house had a right to bring

the question of " Who was to govern?" to the very earliest
possible decision ; but he thought it neither consistent with
wisdom nor good policy to pursue the course of silence they
had adopted, and to leave the country in the dark as to what
were their intentions or opinions upon those great questions
which agitated the whole kingdom. The right honourable
gentleman then, in reply to the charges against the Govdrn-
ment, resorted to the to quoque argument against Lord
Stanley and Sir J. Graham, as tar as they had shared in the
whig measures passed while they were still members of the
Administration. The right honourable gentleman, after en-
tering into details in order to show that the present Govern-
ment had been as economical as any that had preceded it,
referred to some reports which had been circulated, implying
that the security of the moneys in savings banks was endan-
gered by his measures, and expressed a hope that hon. gen-
tlemen on both sides of the house would avail themselves of
an opportunity, in the course of that debate, of assuring the
public of that which in that house they knew to be true, that
the security of those funds was in no way interfered with.
With respect to the proposition of altering the corn laws' he
wished it to be understood that although he believed a fixed
duty would give an increased revenue, yet that question was
not brought forward as a revenue question, but because the
experiment of the sliding scale was proved to be a failure,
and a change was called for with a view to promote the wel-
fare of all classes of the community.
Mr. GouLnunsr said it was not his intention to have ad-
dressed the house, because the question before it was of so
lain and simple a character that it was perfectly understood
both in and out of doors ; but the allusions made to the
finances of the country rendered it imperative upon him to
enable hon. gentleman to perceive that the calculations of the
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring) had not adverted to the
sugar duties, because he knew that all the anticipations
formed on his (Mr. Goulburn's) side of the house as to the
importation of sugar, and expressed so repeatedly in their de-
bates upon the subject, three months ago, had, within the
last three months, been more than realised—(hear, hear), the
importation for the three months, ending the sth of August,
having far exceeded that of the same months in the prece-
ding year. (Hear.) With respect to the timber duties, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer calculated in his budget upon
an increase of £600,000 upon the revenue of the present
year arising from these duties. It so happened, however,
that he had the copy of a letter from Lord Sydenham to Lord
John Russell, written last April, and laid before the Cana-
dian Assembly, in which letter the noble lord stated that he
had no doubt, if there was any proposal for altering those
duties, care would be taken to render the change as gradual
as possible, and thus to diminish individual losses ; but that
at all events the change could not affect the importations of
the present year, as that would be both unjust and injurious,
as orders had been given which were in the course of execu-
tion, and could not be countermanded. (Cheers.) What
confidence, he would ask, could be placed in a government
which could be ignorant of the mischievous effects of such a
measure, for surely they might know that at the distance of
Canada from this country, such a measure could not be car-
ried into immediate operation without being productive of

the greatest mischief and injustice. With- respect to the
savings banks he was anxious to disabuse the public mind of
the belief that anything had been done to endanger the secu-
rity of the savings banks, though the proceeding which had
been adopted was in his opinion very objectionable, inasmuch
as it gave the Chancellor of the Exchequer power to add
largely to the permanent debt of the country without the
controul of Parliament. Objectionable as this proceeding
was, it in no way tended to endanger the security of the
savings banks. The right hon. gentleman, in conclusion,
said that the ministry were not then upon their trial, for they
had been tried in the last parliament and found guilty ; they
subsequently appealed to a higher tribunal, the constituency
of the country, and the verdict had been confirmed. They
were now therefore sitting to hear judgment passed upon
them to give up the administration of the affairs of the coun-
try. (Cheers.)
Mr. WAKLEY said that the present government had not
lost his confidence, for they had never possessed it. (A
laugh.) He had supported them as the best he could find,
and that they were leaving, he feared the radical party would
have no reason to congratulate themselves on the accession
to power of the right hon. baronet. The errors of the pre-
sent government were enormous. He prescribed for them
in 1837, and without waiting for a fee. (Cheers.) tle pre-
scribed only three small powders, but they would not take
them. (Great laughter.) And now he would like to know
how they liked the 360 bitter bills they had got opposite to
them. (Great laughter.) And now he would like to know
how they liked the 360 bitter bills they had got opposite to
them. (Roars of laughter.) The right hon. baronet should
receive as hearty support from him, if his measures were
good, as if they emanated from the most confirmed radical.
The right hon. baronet had great capacity—he was a man of
great ability. He knew more of his capacity than most men,
for he had made a phrenological survey of his head. (Im-
mense laughter.) He had great ability, and he had also the
power to do good to the country, and he sincerely hoped he
would not suffer himself to be influenced to refrain from
doing so. The hon. gentleman entreated the right hon.
baronet to take into his benevolent consideration the poor
law amendment bill, which was the most objectionable law
that had ever been enacted by parliament—a law which was
based
ecl in tyranny, and marked by cruelty in its operation.
'nil was the law which destroyed the present government,
an it would destroy any future government which might
attempt to
maintain it. (Cheers.) The debate was then
adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY.
The Earl of FUSE
brought up her Majesty's most gra-
cious answer to the address,
which was to the effect that her
Majesty felt great satisfaction at finding that the House of
Lords was sensible of the importance of the circumstances
to which she had directed their attention in reference to the
commerce and revenue of the country, especially as regarded
the laws relating to the trade in corn; and that in deciding