The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1849-02-27 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOI; STANDARD.

MEETING OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL ASSO-
CIATION.-STATE OF IRELAND.

but if the member should happen to be a Roman Catholic,
he says so to the Speaker, and the Roman Catholic oath
is then put to him. Now, this Roman Catholic oath
binds the member taking it that he will not use the power
given him as a member of that house to injure the Pro-
testant church in these countries. But Lord John Russell
has so altered the oath of the Protestant members that
any Roman Catholic can take it from the Speaker, having,
by the forms of the house, the righc to take which he
pleases. And, if he takes the altered Protestant oath, he is
then freed from that restriction which was considered, at
the time of its institution, by all Protestants—and held forth
by the Romanists them selves—as the great security for
the permanent welfare of the Protestant church of these
countries. Now, gentlemen, I will leave off speaking on
what may be called the religious portion of this question ;
but in doing so, let me implore of you to believe that
this is by far the most important point in the question under
consideration. Whatever else you do for the welfare of
of Ireland, if you do not endeavour to enlighten her
mind on the subject of religion you will fail. (Cheers.)
To do so is more important now than ever, for at this
time the faith of the people is shaken in their priests.
(Cheers.) I saw it recently stated in the House of Par-
liament, as indeed all of you may have done, that never
was there a time when the Protestant clergy of Ireland
were looked upon with greater favour by the masses of
the people than at present. (Cheers.) And why ? Be-
cause during the past famine the Protestant clergy treated
the poor Roman Catholic people as if indeed they were in
reality their own parishioners—members of their own
flocks—(hear, hear)—and for this the poor people are
sincerely grateful. If you would protect the Roman
Catholics from the dominion of their priests, you would
confer on them a great boon • and I believe there would
be a-coming out from that dturch which would surprise
the inhabitants of England. (Hear, hear.) Let us look
at Ireland in its existing state. What is the great evil of
Ireland ? No person will differ from me when I say that
it is the want of security for life and property. (Hear,
hear.) Why is there this want of security ? I have no
hesitation in saying that the conduct of the priests have
some effect in producing this want of security ; but I do
not mean to say that their conduct is the sole cause of
that insecurity, which we all deplore ; or anything like
the sole cause. We know, from history that 14 years ago
the Poor Law Commissioners reported that they had ex-
amined into the state of the poor of Ireland, and that
they had found 2,500,000 of the inhabitants who were
periodically in a state of starvation—indeed they were

A numerous and hiAhly influential meeting of the
Liverpool Constitutional Association, was held at the Cla-
rendon-rooms. on Saturday afternoon, partly for the pur-
pose of hearing an address from Mr. Stapleton, private se-
cretary to the late Right Hon. George Canning, on the state
of Ireland, and partly to take into consideration the latest
proposed charge in the navigation laws. As before stated,
the meeting was well and numerously attended, and
amongst those present we observed 'Messrs. H. C. Chap-
man, J. A. Tobin, Arthur Henderson, Samuel Holme,
W. Fisher, Edmund Molyneux, T. Roskell, and many
other influential members and friends of the association.
Shortly after one o'clock, the president, Edmund Moly-
neux, Esq., was called upon to preside. In opening the
proceedings,
The CHAIRMAN observed, that no doubt they were all
aware, from the notices which they had received, that the
association had been called together chiefly for the pur-
pose of taking into their serious consideration the pro-
posed change which was about being made in the naviga-
tion laws, on which subject a very important meeting had
already been held in the Park. (Hear, hear.) He saw
some of the gentlemen who attended that meeting pre-
sent, and he had no doubt but that some of them were
prepared to give the meeting their opinions on that im-
portant subject, as it would form the basis of their pro-
ceedings that day. Before, however, they entered upon
that question, he begged to say, that through the kindness
of Mr. Horsfall, he had received an intitnation to the
effect that Mr. Stapleton was desirous of addressing the
meeting, on several subjects, with which he was well and
intimately acquainted, and which were closely connected
with the objects which the Constitutional Association had
in view. (Hear, hear.) Before they proceeded with the
regular business of the day, he would therefore request
Mr. Stapleton to communicate his ideas to the meeting.
(Hear, bear.) He did not know what Mr. Stapleton's
opinions were ; but from what he had heard from Mr.
Horsfall, he believed they were identified with the opi-
nions and views of the Constitutional Association.
(Cheers.) Without further comment, he would therefore
introduce Mr. Stapleton to the meeting. (Applause.)
Mr. T. B. HORSFALL observed that he had a remark
or two to make previous to Mr. Stapleton addressing the
meeting. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Horsfall), not being a
member of their association, was indebted to the kindness
of their Chairman and the Committee of the association

- -
for being present on that occasion ; and he wished now to nearly alwils in that deplorable state. No attempt what-
state distinctly that Mr. Stapleton in coming before them ever has been made to deal with this circumstance. T'ie
was actuated by no party, political, or electioneering feel- granting of political privileges to a starving people, and
ing whatever. He had no such object in view ; his only all other such nostrums, have been resorted to, but as
object being to endeavour, if possible, to arouse the peo_ might have been anticipated, they have all failed (hear) •
pie of this country to a true state of feeling with regard to and at present, I believe, that if the truth was known,
Ireland. When he (Mr. Horsfall) saw Mr. Stapleton, he the paupers of Ireland, after fourteen years of the
stated to him some of the many important views which he Poor law, instead of being decreased in number, amount
entertained with regard to that country, and which, in a to at least 3,000,000 people. (Hear, hear.) It has
great measure, were in accordance with the views of the been well said that Irish property ought to support Irish
late lamented Lord George Bentick. , Hear, hear, poverty—but in dealiug with this proposition, before we
hear.) On hearing those views propounded by Mr. establish such a principle, we should introduce such mea-
Stapleton he thought that it would be desirable that sures as will increase Irish property, in order to enable it
he should communicate his opinions to a greater to support Irish poverty. (Hear, hear.) Let us look
number of people, and therefore he had introduced into the working of the poor-law, and we will find that
him to the committee of the Constitutional Asso- Irish property has been all but anihilated. Take care,
ciation. (Cheers.) Before he sat down, he begged
therefore, if you go upon the principle of making Irish
again to state that Mr. Stapleton had no party or property support Irish poverty, that you do not dastroy
electioneering object whatever in view in coming before that upon which you are leaning for support. If the go-
them on that occasion. (Cheers.) vernment would only look upon Ireland as a valuable
The Chairman then introduced Mr. STAPLETON to property, which it was the deep and abounding interest of
the meeting. He was received with loud and marked this country to make the most of—(hear, hear, and
demonstrations of applause. When silence was restored, cheers)—great and incalculable would be the good which
he proceeded to say :
they might achieve. This good might easily be done,
Gentlemen, to prevent misconception, lam anxious to for, as I observe in your local paper of yesterday (Friday)
make a remark in confirmation of what has fallen from in speaking of Ireland,—" There are idle lands and idle
my kind friend in presenting me to this meeting. I have hands" enough there; and all you want is to employ
not the slightest electioneering, party, or private object these idle hands on the idle lands, and there is no danger
in view—direct or indirect, present or remote—in thus but the work will be productive of great benefit and
coming before you. (Hear, hear.) I trust that you will great profit. (Hear, hear.) The question is—how is
not consider me guilty of presumption in standing where this to be accomplished ? Any person who has looked
I now do ; whilst, at the same time, when I consented to into the state of Ireland for the last six months must be
comply with the wishes of Mr. Horsfall and his friends, I impressed with the fact that the change cannot be brought
said that of late I had been very much out of the habit of abought by the machinery which the present government
public speaking ; and, therefore, I must solicit the indul- have adopted, namely—the poor-law in its present form.
H hear. Then comes the question how is this gence of this meeting if I do not express my views with (ear,
re-
that clearness and accuracy which the understanding of (mired security for life and property to be effected ? A
such a meeting as this merits. (Hear, hear.) Now, wise government would have looked at the matter this
gentlemen, no more of self. I conceive that there is no wry :—" No doubt there are many valueless, and, in some
town in this kingdom to which the welfare of Ireland is cases, bad men amongst the Irish landlords ;"—(sorry,
of such deep importance as to the town of Liverpool. indeed, would Ibe to become the apologist of them all)—
(Hear, hear.) I understand that the vast influx of Irish " many of them do not perform their duties as they ought
labourers, within the last year or two, has pressed not to do ; whether that arises from their own misconduct, or
only with unexampled severity on your local rates and the conduct of their prodigal ancestors, matters little.
burdens, but it has endangered the health of the town, But there is also amongst them a large and a valuable
owing to the wretched state they were in—suffering from class of landlords—men who do their duty to society as
all the horrors of misery, famine, and disease—when well as any class in the empire; therefore to all we will
landed on your shores. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I say, let bye-gones be bye-gones ;we will not punish the
thought that here, beyond all other places, on the subject bad, but we will endeavour to make all good." (Hear,
of the state of Ireland, I should obtain a kind, willing, hear, and cheers.) That should be the view which a wise
and interested audience. (Cheers.) Believing, as you government would take of the state of the Irish land-
all must do, that, during the past fifty years, the affairs lords, instead of ruining good and bad indiscriminately
of Ireland have almost always been one continued crisis for the sake of punishing the few valuless members
of distress, at one time, of course, worse than another, which may be amonst them. (Hear.) I know the case
still I do believe, notwithstanding the awful famine of some Irish landlords is peculiarly hard, and I will
through which that country has just passed, that the af.. illustrate it by an example, many of which I know. Take
tairs of Ireland never were in so desperate and alarming a the case of an estate having a nominal rental of £lO,OOO
state as they are at the present moment. I believe, that a year ; £6OOO of that is paid to England in mortgages
if a great and comprehensive policy had been adopted and other incidentals. How would you deal with this
years ago ; if the late prime minister, who having greater landlord ? You all know probably that Irish mortgages
power than any other prime minister, who ever held the Pay about 2 per cent. on an average, in the worst places,
reins of government, had adopted a bold and comprehen- over and above what the English mortgages pay ; so that
sive scheme for the welfare of that country, he would if this gentleman was in England, he would have to pay
have done incalculable good to the people of both but little more than £4OOO, instead of £6OOO. A wise
countries. But lam sorry to say he did not do the good government would have said,—We will help this landlord,
he ought to have done for the people of either. (Cheers.) in order that ultimately he may be enabled to support the
I will say that if the views which lam about to state poor on his own estate. If we only manage to increase this
to you, and which were laid before him six years ago, had man's income, what would be the consequence ? He
been then adopted, lam quite certain that Ireland would would have to spend £6OOO a year on his own estate,
not now present the miserable picture to the world which instead of the £4OOO which he spends at present ; and by
she does. These views were laid before him six years ago, a natural sequence the people on his estate would all be
and I know that they obtained the approbation of his then benefited, and ultimately pauperism would be in a great
most illustrious colleague, who said that they contained the degree eradicated. Instead of adopting that course, what
best scheme which had, up to that time, been propounded has the government done ? They have placed the poor
on that important subject. I regret that they were not on the land, and the consequence has been that the land-
adopted, for if they had been, I firmly believe that much lord is reduced to a state of poverty, the farmer is poor,
of the evils we are now suffering from would haye been the small shopkeeper is poor, and the people are in a state
averted. (Cheers.) I will now say that the whole system of starvation,—which completes the picture. (Hear.)
of government in Ireland for the last eighteen or nineteen If we are to do anything for Ireland, we must not talk of
years has been only calculated to aggravate the evils under constitutional privileges, political freedom, and other such
which we are now labouring. It is impossible, if you look nonsense; nor must we be beguiled from our purpose by
clearly and fairly into the state of Ireland, not to be struck those pretended friends whose interest it is to mislead us,*
with the appearance which the two great divisions of the and who tell us that we have no right to assist the land-
people present to a reflective mind. (Hear, hear.) I lords of Ireland because their grievances are of their own
allude to the division of the Roman Catholics and the making : for if we do not lend Ireland a helping hand,
Protestants, which is one of the sources of the misery of depend upon it she will drag England down with her.
that island. At present we cannot expect to put an end We must go there firmly resolved to do good, and not to
to Roman Catholicism in Ireland. The question we have be marred by any consideration. We must say to the
to decide is, how are we best to deal with the people as people of that country, " Order we will have ; security
they now exist ? Ihe line of policy pursued by our go- we will have ;" and we must show the priests that we
vernment since 1830 has been this—to favour and encou- will not trucke to them,—that so long as they are
rage the Roman Catholic religion in every way, and to good and loyal subjects we will treat them well, but
discourage the Protestant. (Hear, hear.) I say that this, there their power must cease. We must save the
for a Protestant Government, is a false position to assume. people from the tyranny of their priests ; from the tyranny
I say, and say it boldly too, that a Protestant Govern- of their demagogues,—and I do say that no law can be
ment can hardly expect God's favour on any of its men- too stringent to effect this, and to give British capitalists
sures if it does not act in conformity with that faith which security to go there 'and invest their capital. (cheers.)
it professes to hold. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) On the No government could come_ down to the house and
high ground, therefore, of consistency, I denounce that ask for such laws, unless they also came down with some
system—(cheers)—and whilst Idoso on that ground, I comprehensive measure to redeem the nation ; but if
denounce it not less on the ground of its extreme impo- they proposed such a comprehensive scheme; there is no
licy. (Hear, hear.) A recent historian—a Whig states- doubt but that they would receive all the extraordinary
man—(Mr. Macaulay)—who has recently published a power they might require, and the people of England
History of England, gives the strongest testimony against would hail such a proposal with joy. (hear, and cheers.)
this course. He states this remarkable fact, that whether They might say to the senate and the nation—" we are
in the old world or in the new, under almost every variety now determined to make one last effort for that country;
of circumstance—of different races, ages, and climes— but in the present disorganized state of Irish society, pri-
wherever Popery prevails, there the inhabitants are in vate capital will not go there,—hence we require those
a state of darkness and misery ; whilst wherever Pro- powers which we seek, in order to restore security to life
testantism prevails, there the inhabitants are in a state of and property." If by any comprehensive scheme the
happiness and comfort. (Hear hear, and cheers.) There- government convinced the people that security was to be
fore I denounce this policy of the British Government—a eestablished, I believe there would be no necessity for
policy which they have pursued during the last 19 years, the government to carry out the experiment,—(hear,)—
and which they are still pursuing with the same zeal as if for there would then be such an inducement for private
it were productive of good—notwithstanding that it has capitalists to go there, that in two or three years the work
signally failed in producing the effects which the prede- would be done which the government should in the first
cessors of the present and some of the past governments instance undertake. (Loud cheers.) Gentlemen, if this
anticipated from it. (Hear, hear.) We were assured scheme had been carried out years ago, it would have
that if we were only to favour the Roman Catholics you been much better; and I named it to the government,
would have the whole of that body in bonds of the utmost and published it, before it was adopted by the late and
loyalty and devotion to the State. That was the police ever to be lamented Lord George Bentinck—the most
preached by the Whigs from 1830, and which re- gallant hearted, and most right minded patriot and Eng-
suited in the establishment of that remarkable body lishman whom I ever had the fortune to know. (Hear,
called the Precursor Association. Precursor of what? hear, and loud applause.) Although I differed from him
of another body whose avowed object was to achieve the on many points, still I am glad to observe frcm a pos-
repeal of the Union, and consequently the dismember- thumous letter of his recently published in the Herald,
ment of the Empire. (Cheers.) The succeeding Prime and written shortly after he received and read my pamph-
Minister followed the same course,—and what was the let,—l know he read it, for I had a conversation with him
result ? The monster meetings, and political agitation ; subsequently on that topic,—that lie adopts my views in
to use the words of the Premier himself, when speaking every respect. I believe this, and state it on good autlio-
on that subject in the House of Commons—he said that rity, it is the opinion of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
the Catholic clergy, the laity, and all the people of Ire- that at this moment there is a field for the investment of
land, with some loyal exceptions, were leagued in a con- almost any amount of capital, the produce of which would
spiracy against the State. These were nearly his words, be at least twelve per cent. Lord George Bentinck said
and I think they do anything but prove the soundness of that he saw profitable employment by the government for
that policy which the government have been pursuing for for .£120.000,000. Now, Ido not go anything like so far
years with regard to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. as Lord George did ; but I say if the government would
(Cheers.) Then another step forward,—and with what re- only give assistance to works of a reproductive kind, and
sults ? A rebellion, and the suspension of the Habeas establish security for property, then private capital would
Corpus Act ! in order to prevent these very parties from step in and do the remainder of the work. (Cheers) If
throwing off the government of England altogether. I were to enter into all the various details of this question
(Hear, hear.) I say, therefore, that this policy has failed ; I know that difficulties would be raised ; but I also know
and I will say that the first act of any government for the very well that whatever proposition is made for the re-
welfare of Ireland must be the altering of that ruinous demption of Ireland, by either the government or private
course which hitherto has been pursued. (Cheers.) I capitalists,it will be beset with difficulties. But the
will not remind you of Maynooth, and the different other question is—Will you allow Ireland to pull down England
measures which have, from time to time, been adopted by with her into that vortex of misery to which she is now
the government ; their anxiety to effect a communication fast approaching ? Will you allow her to nend to your
with the Pope, and their desire to govern the Roman Ca- shores annually her 100,000 paupers ? Will you allow her
tholic subjects of this empire through his influence. But instead of sending 100,000 to send you 200,000 paupers ?
this same impotent attempt is now going on,—yes, even That is the question which must be settled, disguise it as
now,—and I tell you that I look forward with much we may.. A foreign journal, some three years ago, clearly
anxiety to see the debates of last night ;—for I believe and succinctly stated the case between Ireland and this
the same insidious policy—l will call it anti-Protes- country. That journal said that the policy pursued by
tant and anti-English policy, is still going on—that of England towards Ireland was a course of provisional
endeavouring to govern the Roman Catholics, who should relief. (Hear, hear.) When relief was had, then came agi-
be governed only by the laws of the country in tation ;
.property and capital became insecure, and then
which they live,—through the influence of the Pope. came distress, to be again followed by relief. That was
(Hear, hear.) I look with great anxiety to see the course
the round of English legislation for Ireland. (Hear,hear.)
which Lord John Russell will pursue with regard to the And the same journal asks, " When will England adopt
new oaths' bill for members of parliament. Lord John some comprehensive system of policy, which will be as
says he will not alter the oath with regard to the Roman essential to herself as to Ireland ?" (Cheers.) I believe
Catholics ; but he says, " Why are we to demand from that no other system, calculated to answer the end pro-
Protestants, who owe the Pope no allegiance, who care posed, can be propounded but the one which I have en-
not for him, a stricter adjuration than we do from Raman deavoured to shadow out. (Hear, hear.) In the course
Catholics ? If it is not fair to make this demand, then of five or six years, even going on as we are now, there
let us change the words of the oath." Now, we know may be a dawn of prosperity for Ireland—not prosperity
that the oath of the Protestant members, as it is at pre- for the present race of inhabitants, but for the people who
sent, sets forth that the Pope hath not, neither ought he will succeed them. But, let me ask, who can calmly
to have, any power whatever in these countries, whether reflect on the misery, the unheard-of woe and suffering,
spiritual or temporal. This plain common-sense Protes- which that poor people must undergo, before even the
tant form of. oath Lord John proposes to change thus : least prosperity dawns upon them ? Who can think on
That the Pope hath not, neither ought he to have, any what Ireland must suffer before then, and reflect on the
temporal power in these countries, &c. Thus putting the discredit which must attach to this country if we allow
Protestant form of oath in such a shape that any man her so to suffer, without feeling a strong desire to rescue
might take it. As each member of the house presents her from the appalling, fate which awaits her ? (Cheers.)
tar
himself he is sworn in by the Speaker, and to every lam bold enough to say, that it is in the power of any
member so, resenting himself the Protestant form is put;. minis of they crown.to change the face of Irish affairs in