The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-01-05 00:00:00

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FIRST GENERAL MEETING OF COUNCILLORS.

tion for many years. . He thought the compensation should fall
on the public, and not on the corporation. He should be in no
hurry to dismiss Mr. Foster, considering, that his office was to
be held during pleasure, and that the day after they might dis-
miss hhn.
Mr. Councillor Bo ITON could have wished that they were free
to adjourn the consideration of this question until a cenninittee
should be appointed to examine into the state of the town-clerk's
offices, and other various branches of the expeuditure of the cor-
poration, with the view of either continuing.or not severa.lof the
appointments, and in all cases to make efficient reduction in the
salaries or 'emoluments which those individuals
the town-
clerk, from whatliad been then stated, he conceived they must
come to some determination that day. There was one question
which would, if the, present town-clerk were continued, place
them in an awkward situation. That question was this,—they
were aware that he had with considerable ability, supported by
the council, been recently engaged in endowing the churches.
He did not know that he had any right to express the opinion
of the town; but he believed that they knew theelhere was con-
siderable opposition to that endowment. Very likely the first
question which would be brougLit before them would be that the
endowment should be set aside; how, under such circumstances,
could they ask for the professional services of that gentleman
who had exerted himself so much in obtaining that endoWment.
That was a very great difficulty in the appointment of Mr. Ifo,s
ter. as town-clerk. But for that circumstance•he would moet
readily have acquiesced in his reappointment, with the under-
derstanding-that it was for a short time, provided he would do
what Mr. Radcliffe had offered to do. If the council should,de-
cide to set aside the endowment, he would appeal to any now,
present, how was it possible they could ask for the ability of the
town-clerk to undo what he he' had been taking so much pains
to perform?
Mr. Councillor Hoeseeere—Can't we employ another man
for that particular duty.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON.—I beg your pardon, we shall not
pay any other man to do that which the town-clerk is paid for
doing.
The MAYOR.—If any one is employed for such an object- he
must be paid fur what he does', and therefore it is not putting
the town-council to any expense. If the town.clerk were to be
employed he would have to be paid for it. He therefore should
say, prudence would point out the propriety, in such a case as
that, in appointing some other person.
Mr. Councillor EARLE.—Though he thought the town-clerk
might have acted very differeutly on many occasions to what
he had done, yet he dill think the evil of dismissing him would
be greater than that of retaining him fer the present, and allow-
ing some other person to do that business; and. he was sure
Mr. Foster -would think it his duty to remain perfectly silent
on that point. . •
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN.—In the position in which they
were placed he conceived if he read the' act right, that it was
perfectly competent int. Mr. Foster to withdraw from his office
unless they chose to continue him in all its emoluments; that
is, that he shall have ,no reduction in any shape without his Cone
sent and concurrence: if he refuse to grant such consent and
concurrence then he. is entitled to all the compensation whether
they chose to give it him or not. He thought that exceedingly
modified the view they might take in the matter. Mr. Foster
had them completely on the hip. He had the power to com-
pel them to pay that compensation if _he should refuse to have
his emoluments taken away. He'thought it extremely proba-
ble that he would insist in the continuance of the office with
the present emoluments, or the obtaining of all the compensa-
tion which the act of parliament compels the town-council to
give him. He would suggest whether it would not be best at
once to look the difficulty in the face, and if the majority of the
council thought with him, that they should elect another officer.
They could not expect that Mr. Foster would harmonize with
them in the arrangements they intended to make. There was
another view of the subject. It had been said that the town-
clerks duties might, with great advantage to the community, be
divided into several departments. If. a committee should be
appointed to report to them all the emoluments and the various
offices into which the town-clerk's present duties might be di-
vided, they were in Mr. Foster's power in that respect. They
could not appoint a committee to make these inquiries without
his consent. Besides, Mr. Foster, if they should appoint any
one to any of his offices who might fill them at less expense to
the public, might make the saute charge as ever, and if ever
they attempted to curtail his emoluments, he might immedi-
ately close on them if twenty years had elapsed, and demand
the compensation.
The MAYOR.—The motion proposed by Mr. Aikin was, that
they should continue the town-clerk's appointment until time
had been given to.a committee to inquire into what his duties
were. Mr. Blackburn was not keeping to the motion.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN thought he was keeping to' the
motion. He had no wish to detain the council. He thought
they would deceive themselves, if they entertained themselves
with the notion that Mr. Foster would not press en that council
all the advantage the act had given him. He took that as a first
principle which ought to guide them. However long they
might ,wait, he was persuaded that Mr. Foster would continue
either, on the one hand, to enjoy all the emoluments of the
office, or to demand all the compensation which the act entitled
him to. That;Veieg the case, was it not their wisest plan to
look the difficulty in the face, and dismiss Mr. Foster, which
would place them in a situation to carry forward their inquiries,
and by which, he had no doubt, a very considerable saving
might Le made in the public expenditure, which would go a
great way towards the compensation. They were returned by
the reformers iu that town ; and, whether justly or unjustly,
Mr. Foster did not stand well in the eyes of the reformers of
Liverpool, and they should gain nothing if they refrained from
striving to turn him out on the first opportunity. Mr. Foster
would enforce the rights the act had given him. lie did not say
he would be wrong in doing so ; but he thought they would be
sh)witg the purity of their own principles and the decision and
determination of their proceedings, if they boldly and at once
' dismissed him from the office. Ile should, therefore, remain by
the resolution proposed by Mr. Rathbone.
Mr. Councillor Setae rose and felt considerable difficulty in
addressingthene. It was a question of very ,great importance, and
one on which they could not reflect on with too much care. He
rose, perhaps, with a little more hesitation, because he should be
obliged to vote contrary to what might be expected from him.
He was returned as a reformer, and he was in principle
au ultra-reformer; but he decidedly objected to a stranger
being
.appointed to the office of town-clerk befere they knew
the duties which *ere to be performed by him, or the fit-
ness of the persoteeppointed to perforrnitiem.. He looked on
this as a very complicated question, and they were bound to
take a mature view of both sides of it. They must not lose
sight of the compensation to which Mr. Foster, if dismissed,
was entitled by law. And again, the bode under which Mr.
Foster had acted had acted in direct opposition to those princi-
ples which he conceived were the only correct ones in the ma-
nagement of the public affairs. Mr. Foster was the paid ser-
vant of that body. and Mr. Foster might have acted conscienti-
entiously or nut; hut he was hound to ascertain what his con- •
duct was, and what it wns likely to be, before he at once dis-
missed him and allowed him this very heavy compensation to
which hr would_ be entitled. He did not know that it would be
desirable to dismiss him ; he was totally ignorant of the facts of
the case. He therefore would say. that if he were to proceed
hastily he would be doing a gross injustice to those who had
sent him there. 'To act for their advantage he must know
what their interests were ; and until he was placed in that situ.-
ation, he Should be acting the part of a child to proceed. He
coincided in what Mr. Aikin had said, that they should ap-
point a comMittee to inquire into the circumstances of Mr.
Foster's situation into the duties he had to perform, and see
how his emoluments arose. And if they did not find them cor-
rect, and compensation was to be in proportion, they should
have information on which they could go to the Lords of the
Treasury and say" he has squandered the public money, and we.
will not allow lmimd a compensation based on that ; if . you take
on yoursel yes the responsibility of compensating him, in God's
name do it, we will not." He therefore begged leave to say he
would vote for the amendment as proposed by Mr. Aikin.
Mr. Councillor Hors took the same view. as the mover and
seconder of the motion had taken. He thought it desirable to
appoint a successor. He was quite satisfied that, however ably
and faithfully Mr. Foster might have executed his duties in times
past, under his late employers, he did not think they could,
under the changed circumstances in which they stood, repre-
senting as -they did the majority of time rate-payers in the town,
give him their entire confidence as town-clerk. By the opinions
expressed by Mr. Lawrence and another eminent barrister, they
appeared to be in this dilemma, that they could not adjourn ;
they must therefore do• either one or the other thing, agree to
appoint Mr. Foster, or agree to dismiss him and appoint some
one else. He should exweess by his vote his opinion that Mr.
Foster could not fulfil thw wishes of the present council. He
should say he agreed with Mr. Rathbone's proposition. He
should-lament if they were called on to take any precipitate step
at the present moment. He wished no disrespect to Mr: Fos-
ter, and that being' done he expressed no preference at all to
Mr. Radcliffe, who had been nominated. Let it be distinctly
understood ho was not pledged to Mr. Radcliffe holding the
situation one day longer than the council should think good."
Mr. Councillor 8 n A II etes should not be doing his duty if he
did not express his sentiments on the question. He had endea-
voured to bring his mind to bear on the question; and knowing
the feeling of his constituents he had endeavoured for the last
three or four days to give the subject his earnest attention, and
lie had also heard legal opinions on the subject, and his mind
was made up. The towreclerk had not the approbation of his
contituents or their wish that he should remain in his present
office. He, in, consequence, had begun to look about hiueto see
if any means could be devised by which the town-clerk could be
put from his situation without compensation, or in some way
with less of compensation. He had got the best legal advice he
could about it, He had asked, with reference to getting the
town-clerk out without compensation, or with the least compen-
sation, and the answer was, " there is no chance whatever,• the
town-clerk's remuneration was the price of the bill itself.: They
have guarded themselves in every possible way, and there is not
a possibility pf,getting them out without passing the full penalty
of the bill!' That being his impression, he then. said the wish of
his constituents was, that-the town-clerk should not remain in
office ; then he came zit once to the conviction that the better
plan would be to turn him out. He was convinced that was the
opinion of his constituents, and was his own feeling. lie had. a
duty to perform, and he should do it feat iessly and conscien-
tiously. It bad been said that the town-clerk expected £40,000
or £50,000; that was a mere assertion, for they had very little
to guide them on the subject For he understood that they had
to state what his compensation was to be; that the council had
that power; and if he objected to it they would have the means,
on turning him away, of examining into his accounts and form-
ing some judgment: He was unite surptised that any gentleman
who had been returned as a reformer could think of looking at
him in this new state of things. He knew not Mr. Foster, he
only spole as' expressing the opinions of the reformers of the
town generally, that Mr. Foster should not be considered town-
clerk. lie supported at once Mr. Rathboue'S motion. At the
' same time he must say this, and he wished it to be understood,
that in appointing Mr. Radcliffe to the duties of town-clerk he
did it in accdrdence with the
.wishes of his' constituents, that the
present !An-clerk should not be elected; and in appointing
Mr. iitiackiffe pro tempore he felt himself as perfectly open,
to vote fin...another as if he (Mr. Radcliffe) had not beeu men-
tioned at all.
The MAYOR.—Mr. Sharpies had fallen into an error; they
had no power of taming the compensation for the town-clerk
he himself had the. power of naming- his own compensation.
Thee had the pOwer of examining him on oath relative to his
books and papers, and dissenting, if they thought right, from the
compensation fixed by him; and if he was dissatisfied he had
the power of appealing to the Lords of the Treasury to adjudi-
cate on his claim.
Mr. Councillor JORDAN.—Sir, I beg to say that Mr. Sharpies
makes a reflection upon myself and many ether
votereformers when
he says that no conscientious reformer could for Mr. Foster.
I have—
The MAY 01G-1 am quite sure Mr. Sharpies did not mean to
reflect upon .any gentleman.
Mr. Councillor SH AR PLES.—I certainly did not. I think Mr.
Jordan as much in earnest as myself.
Mr. Councillor COG LAN said, to those gentlemen whose views
were not guided -by preceding circumstances, and who did not
enter into the broad question of public affairs in this community,
and who wished to view the subject prospectively, without being
guided by thevast, it might perhaps be very desirable to act on
the suggestion of Mr. Aikin that they should appoint a com-
mittee to inquire into all the circumstances of the case before
they came to,a decision; en,' thus, after they had heard all that
could be learned from the various inquiries of the committee,
decide whether Mr. Foster was to be continued or whether
another pee son should be appointed in his place. If gentlemen

Ou Friday, according to the order iu council, the councillors
for the borough of Liverpool held their first general meeting for
the purpose of electing a mayor, town-clerk, and other towns-
Officers under the new municipal bill. The reporters for the
icress sent notes into the council-room .to inquire if they would
be admitted. After some considerable delay occurring from
the misunderstanding of one of the attendants, we were admit-
ted at about one o'clock. the business of the meeting having
Commenced at twelve o'elock. The following is what we have
been enabled to glean as having taken place previous to our
entry :

'HIE LIVERPOOL .STAN .DA ?it.b

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to the three questions being put. Mr. Rathbone then said that
if Mr. Foster said "Yes" to.--these questions. he would rest his
•
case upon that.
.The MAYOR.---I would suggest that after the town-clerk has
been asked these questions, I. should requez,t, him to. retire;_ it
will then be better for Mr.. Rathbone to state whether he is sa-

came to this conclusion, that they would be entirely guided by
the information thus obtained, and if they find Mr. Foster ap-
pears•tO be the most eligible person to hold the office, that they
will continue him, then the motion was quite regularand proper.
BM' to"those' who knew anything at all of the feelings of the
community, and considered that essential as bearing on the
question, he thought, without the slightest mark of disrespect to
Mr. Foster, that the feelings of the great mass of the commu-
nity would not be in unison with his being the regular legal
agent of the: reformed common council. If therefore, feeling
that they could not with deference to the political feelings of the.
community and their local feelingsif they could not consult
Mr. Foster ii4erfect harmony nu all the difficult subjects on.
which it might The necessary to consult him—what ought they to
do ? If they could come to the conclusion that he would still
maintainshis original sentiments, that he would not swerve from
those 'sentiments on which he had hitherto acted, that he was a
person who had not professed these opinions as the servant
merely of a public body, but also from the honourable impulses
of • his mind. It' they came to the conclusion that Mr. Foster
would still act in the same line of politics, so far as his senti-
ments and opinions went, what were they obtainingliycontinuing,
Mini in office, if he should proceed, during the period of this in-
quiry, in the • same course ? They would, during the whole
period of this inquiry, lose the sum—the enormous sum—Mr.
Foster would demand. By adopting the plan proposed by Mr.
Bathbone he thought they would be acting more in consonance
with the feelings of the great mass of the people, and harmonise
with the great object they wished to accomplish—which he ap-
prehended was to pursue the course of economy—which course
could be best followed by the dismissal of Mr. Foster. And
this would not be a mat k of disgrace, but merely that the cons-
men council wished to elect another gentleman more likely to
carry into effect their wishes. He thought it would be more
consonant to the feelings of the. people, to all their feelings, to
Mr. Foster's own 'feelings, that another law officer should be
,appointed in his stead.
Mr. Councillor S IT H.—They were'placed in'an awful predi-
cament indeed. '.They were told that it was utterly impossible
to supply the place of Mr. Foster on the score of talent. He
believed that would not be found the fact. He would not ex,
press any opinion on that point.
The MAYOU. had not heard any such opinion expressed ,with
regard to Mr. Foster.
Mr. Councillor SMITH.—It is a very common remark out of
doors.
The MAYOR.—That we have nothing to do with, Mr. Smith
Mr. Councillor SMITH.—He was perfectly in order. Mr.
Brocklebank had said he did not know where the money was to
come from. The case stood thus:—that while ir. Foster was
town-clerk, he must receive certain emoluments, and while he
was their servant, they must give him a certain salary. Now
if this was the case, and if those emoluments were a great deal
more than'. it was presumed they ought to be —if they
could get the same business done on more economical
terms, there could be .no question that it must eventually
be a saving, and they ought to pursue that course.---,
'lf there was any diffichlty in obtaining the money, and
if they could prove to the public that it would be economical to
dismiss Mr. Foster,—(they certainly required information on
those points;)—if they were prepared to say that other men of
equal talent and ability would do the work for less, he would be
bound for it that many men of capital would be found ready to
advance the money, if necessary, for the compensation.
Mr. Councillor "BLACKBURN would wish to ask• Mr. Law-
rence, if the town-clerk sent in the amount of his claim for
compensation, had the council the power to examine hOn on
oath with regard to it.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE.—They had the power.
Mr. Councillor Aims; would beg to ask the Mayor if it were
in order for the mover of an amendment to speak in reply?
The Ma von.—l believe not.
Mr. Councillor CROPPER would be glad to know if any one
Present could speak with any degree of certainty as to the pro-
bable amount. which the town-clerk had received from the cor,
poraton of Liverpool annually. It seemed to him rather an
important feature in the question from the very small emolu-
ment derived from their funds.
The MAYOR.—AII-the emolument he received from the cor-
poration was one hundred guineas. His other emolunietiis
fluctuated with the business to be done. The town-clerk made
no greater charge than any other professional gentleman would
make.
Mr. Alderman FREME thought, as this was perhaps one of the
most important questions which would come before them, they
would do well to consider before they proceeded.
Mr. Councillor SMITH (addressing the mayor.),--Sir, you.
called me to order when I spoke hist for saying, that they
.had been told no one but Mr. Foster could fill the situation
or town-clerk. You, sir, no doubt thought von were correct
when yon contradicted me, and that contradiction made me
appeal in, some degree foolish. I beg to appeal_to the reporters.
(Cries of " No, no !") I can't permit myself to be called to
account, and I will not allow it. (Cries of 1‘ Order!" "Chair,
chair!")
The MAYOR hope you will give me the credit to believe
that, while 1 fill this situation, nothing shall prevent me from
acting in the discharge of iny duty. I have not "contradicted"
anv gentleman here in the usual application of the term con-
tra'dict. Now, Mr. liathbone, we shall be glad to hear your
reply.

tidied or not.
Mr. Councillor LAW RENCE.—The meaning of the charge was
that Mr. Foster was guilty 'of something bordering o'ri perkiry,
and then the question naturally arose, How will you believe
him in future: He thought they could nut go fairly into the
question without giving Mr. Foster a fair chance otrjustifica-
tiim; but he did not think they were placing Mr. Foster in that
situation without his having heard what had been said on the
occasion. He thought it necessary that they should call hint
in, and that the Mayor should make a fair statement of the case

to hint.
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE.—Many gentlemen have left the
room ; I think it better they should not. •
Mr. Conncillor CoGLAN.—He believed that Mr. Foster did
not, as a witness, state all the facts necessary to enable the
House of Lords to come to a fair-conclusion;.and, being interro-
gated about it, he said " he was ready to do so if truss-examined."
He believed there was nothing of perjury in that; but he did
not state all that was necessary for a conclusion.
The MAYOR.—Oa the question of compensation, Mr. Rath-
bone went on to add, " he will have to be examined on the
question of compensation; how are you sure that-he will state
the truth."
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE (interrupting.)—Without a eross-
examination, I stated.-
The MAYOH.—True, you did.
Mr. Councillor Hopi.—Mr. Rathhone made a statemept of
facts, and he afterwards made a comment on it, and he thought
Mr. Rathbone should withdraw that comment. That comment
certainly conveyed to his mind an impression which hordered
on .a charge of falsehood.
Mr. Councillor ItATHBoNE.—I stated that, " Were we sure
we, should have the truth without a cross-examination ?" I
made no comment; I asked a question. Our worthy chief-
magistrate will not intentionally misrepresent what I said, and
I beg, gentlemen, that in so grave a matter as this—it is im-
portant to all that what is said should be exactly remembered.
Mr. Councillor SANDARS.—The charge made was a most
grave and serious one, and he held that if the question was to
be decided by those three questions that none other. should be
asked.
Mr. Councillor SHIEL said this was a very important ques-
tion. He had already spokea against removing Mr. Foster
'until they were acquainted with all the circumstances of his
office. He thought it necessary to ascertain bow far he had
committed himself by the conduct which had been charged
against him. If Mr. Foster were capable,•under such circum-
stances, even of- concealiugs his knowledge without a cross-
examination, -he would say he (Mr. F.) would be dear to that
council at any price. (Hear.) The lineal- form in which an
oath was put—he did not know the form of the oath put iu the
'House of .Lords—rendered it' impossible to conceal anything
' without efettemitting perjury. It was virtually implied that a
man would in evidence declare the truth, the tehee truth, ariSl.
nothing hitt-the- truth. He, therefore, who waited for a cross--
examination had a very loose conscience. And if it could be
proved that Mr. Foster did so, no man in that council would
vote for his being continued. (Hear, hear.)
'Fhe MAYOR wished to say one word. Ile most willing apo-
logised for anything he might have said duriog that debate cal-
enlated to hurt time feelingsomf Mr. Rathbone; nothing on earth
should induce him willingly to insult the feelings of auv one.
He understood that Mr. Foster was to be called in, and to be
told that, during the discussion, his conduct before the House
of Lords, relative to the municipal bill‘ had not met with the
approbation of the council. After ha shad replied to the ques-
tions to be asked him, that he should be required to withdraw;
andehen Mr. Rathbone would- be required to state what he
thought on what Mr. Foster had said. He would lather be the
organ of the council in this matter, and not take the responsi-
bility on himself.
Mr.. Councillor llarituoteu begged to move that the ques-
tions be put separately ; which was agreed to.
Mr. Councillor Law BENCE conceived a general notion of the
charge should be given to Mr. Foster.
The Messenger was here sent.to request Mr. Foster's attend-
ance, who shortly aftecarrived. •
The Ma Yeit.—Mr. Foster, in the course of the discussion re-
spectiug.the office of town-clerk, which has been held this day,
anti the .niode in which the council should proceed with respect
to that office, it has been stated, with respect to you, that, on
thepassage of the reform bill through the House of Lords,you went
up to London to confer with persons appointed by his majesty's
ministers for the arraneement of certain clauses—two clauses,
that in reference to the duck estate and the leasing clause.
But that in your examination before the House of Lords you
did urge, in opposition to the passing of the bill, that these two
adauses were not sufficiently regulated with respect to Liverpool.
-I am-desired by the council to put to, you three questions rela-
tive tothis.
.The questions, to be put to you are these. (The
Mayor then put the first question.)
Mr. Foseee.—lt is quite impossible for me to answer such a
question. . With regard to the leasing clause, the alterations
were made not at my suggestion, but at the suggestion of a de-
putatioo, which, to the best of my recollection, consisted of Mr.
Ambrose Lace, Mr. Steward, and another gentleman 1 do not
remember. With regard to the leasing clause, I myself took
little or no part in it. Those gentlemen told me that they had
it. Ile did not recollect ever sinutL,gurels)
ciinargt.
0:n1o:1:vs
biittthos
nht
hooeurlgdAeibnret.i
eLinaeeneseverally regulated the clause for themselves, and don't re-
collect that I ever changed a word iu it, or looked over a leaf of
alter-
ed or how it should stanndaiienixdepor:ssed. He was present one day
Appointedafter ltlr . ioycien
ministers,
said that the suggestions had been attended to, and that he (Mr.
Foster) should have a copy .of the clause. That was all he
knew about the matter.. , , ' •
The M yea then put the second of the above questions (rd-
spectiug the dock bill) to Mr. Foster.
Mr. FesTae.—With respect to what was done in the dock
bill, I had nothing whatever to do with that. There was a dis-
tinct deputation sent from the dock committee. Not having
any intimate acquaintance with them I did not see much of
them. It did so happen that I was present along with them on
one occasion when they met, and nue' of the• members of the
corporation, (Mr. Horsfall,) a member of the present council,
was also present. But to the best of my recollection I was a
mere-spectator; I went with them from mere curiosity more
than anything else. I had no connection with the deputation
in the world. I can have no hesitation in stating, this. If you
refer to-the petition-of the'comtuun .council mm the working of
the municipal bill as it was then framed, it is distinctly set in
that petition what I was to support, which I did to the best
of my judgment in the examination, with a copy of which I
shall be glad to furnish you. I ant quite unprepared for the
question • I cannot detail exactly the circumstances that oc-
curred. 'The deputation consisted of Mr. Myers, Mr. Sanders,
Mr. Horsfall, and one or two others. They happened to come
to the hotel where I was stayilig, and although I was present at
one of their meetings it was understood that on the part of the
corporation I had nothing to do with them.
• The Mayon then put the third question. -
Mr. FosTan.—i nould much rather Mr. Mayor refer you at
once to the examination which I shall have, much pleasure to
bring into the room. It is reported verbatim. I was asked
a general question as to the value of the dock estate, but I don't
recollect—s 0 fer as my memory at the present motnent enables
me to speak—l don't think I did urge that clause as an objec-
tion. What I said on the subject was the echo ofahe pet '`in,
of the corporation. In the report of the common counci
will find the petition of the colonel;, as set out verb-dim. lie
think tit:a it must have stated in the preamble of the petitions
the House of Lords that an arrangement haelsbeen made
had much rather you would allow me to fetch the evidence it-
self. I submit to the council that it is hardly fair that I should
be called on at once to answer a question, which I ant as un-
prepared to answer as if you had asked me the age of my grand-
mother. Mr. Foster then withdrew to his office for a copy of the
evidence. •
Mr. Councillor ItarsteoNE.—My statement was, Mr. Mayor,
that these two matters had been purposely arrranged; and that
the dock estate and leasing clause were objections urged against
the passing of the bill in Mr. Foster's evidence. Would you
ask that question of Mr. Foster on his return.
Mr. Foster now returned.
The Mavoe.—l ant requested to ask you whether you know
whether these arrangements were made before you went into
the House of Lords to give your evidence.
Mr. Fuszen.—What arrangements ?
The Maeoit.—The arrangements you understood to have
taken place.
Mr. FosTEn.—l can't remember. I had the general belief
that the leasing clause was put right
beforew
ih I went
it to the House
of Lords. I would ask any geman os possible I
should.
The Mavon.—ln answer to the third question, you stated
that the report of your evidence would be an answer. Would
.you read. that report.
Mr. Foster then read the report of. his evidence before the
House of Lords from the printed copy. Mr. Foster then retired.
The Mevott.—Now you have heard me put these questions
and the reply. Is there any gentleman who wishes to suggest
any questions as to cross-examination.
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE.—On my own part I am perfectly
satisfied. The examination must convince this portion of the
council that I have not made an allegation that is not perfectly
borne out from that examination.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE entirely differed with Mr. Rath-
bone in that opinion.
The Me 'ism—We now come to Mr. Aikin's amendment.
[Several gentlemen bete left the room; when the Mayor said
as a general rule let it be understood that any person wishing
to leave the room addresses the Mayor before leaving the room.]
The amendment and afterwards the motion were put to the
meeting. and the votes taken seriatim. Ott calling over Mr.
Woollright's name he declined voting; he could not consci-
entiously give a vote. -
The Matfett said it was imperative he should vote one way
or other.
Mr. Woollright still declined to vote. After a short pause
the Mayor said, I have put you down for the amendment.
Mr. Councillor WOOLLRIGHT.—I have ot given a vote.
The MaYee.—lf any gentleman should n
feel himself in such a
position that he could not conscientiously vote it would be better
that he should request permission of the chairman to retire.
Mr. Councillor WOOLLRIGHF.—With your penuissiuu, Mr.
Mayor, I will leave
.the room.
'I he Mae OR.—Certainly.
Mr. Councillor WoOLLRIGHT.—I am to understand-that my
vote is not recorded, sir,
.The Mavoit.-1t is not.
'[lie Mayor laid this down s the future rule. The decision
was then proceeded with, wh there appeared for the amend-
ment, " That a committee o inquiry be appointed, and Mr.
Foster meantime remain town-clerk," 30 votes; against it, 31.
For the original motion, " That Mr. Radcliffe be appointed
towl3-clerk,".32 ; against it, 30. It appeared that one or tee
gentlemen voted for the amendment and for the motion. The
Mayor then declared the motion carried. The following is a
list"of the division:—
Foe the dionissal of Ith'. Foster.-0. Heyworth, C. Logan, It.
Alison, W. Stuart, (leo. Holt, Edward Cropper, John Holmes,
Thomas Holt, H. Bright, William Lassell, Win. Rushton, C.
Rawdon, Thomas Buller), H. Holmes, NV. It. Preston, George
Robinson, L. Heyworth, 'l'. Blackburn, J. D. 'l'hornely, S.
1-lope, E. llarvey, Thomas Bolton, It. Roskell, Rath-
bone, E. Smith, Thomas Cuglan, C. Birch, R. M‘GeecoreC.H.
NV. Thornhill, W. M Duncan.
—W. W. Currie, J. Walmsley, Hugh
R. Shell, John Cropper. James Lawrence, James Cellolr, J. S.
3no
Againstonrenst, N V
the. B .
.v.l Sharpies,o t iu
Barclay,
W. Blain, Thomas Smith, R. Beni],
Leigh, .1. Barton, James Moon, 11. Lawrence, oa,
Joseph Hornby, W. P. Freme, E. Evans, W. Maxwell, Thos.
Booth, James Carson, James Aiken, T. Brocklebank, T. Lea•
thom, C. Tayieure, W. Earle, Joseph Sanders, F. Jordan.
APPOINTMENT OF MAGISTRATE.S.
A note was read from the late Mayor, enclosing an extract of
a letter received in October from tae office of th
that e Secretary of
State for the Home Depaitment, d stating any m-
mendation the new council might make of persons suitable to
be justices of the peace would have its due weight with govern-
ment.
The MAYort...—That is for your consideration.
Qt;ARTERLY MEETINGS.
The quarterly meetings of the co
eduncil, on
the the
rs preposedeesition of
Mr. Councillor Lawrence, were fix for fit Wednesday
iu February, May,' and August next, respectively, at eleven
o'clock in the forenoon.
Mr. Councillor BoureN. —lf time day should fall on Sunday,

air. Councillor RATHBON E.—Mr. Mayor, in replying, I mus
beg your indulgence. I have not beets
use
bl d to this
do m
myselt
ode, ot
debate. lam quite aware that I shall, proba, dot
y
and the subject justice; but I shall endeavour to do my duty
fearlessly, fairly, and conscientiously. In coming into
cal this
council-room, 1 feel lam not to indulge in any
politi hos-
tility. In • moving for Mr. Foster not being re-appointed, I
declare on my honour that it is from no personal hostility to Mr.
Foster. In moving for the appointment of Mr.. Radcliffe, I
deClare on my honour it is from no feeling of favour to him. I
sin not influenced by any thing like party feeling here, but by
what will be of, the greatest advantage to the town. Several
gentlemen have used the words " conscientious vote:" I wiil
give my conscientious. vote, and I will give a conscientious
expression to my feelings, and let the public decide between us,
and judge by my conduct whether I am acting fearlessly, fairly,
and without. any party bias. A good deal has been said about
compensation. -I think that question has been in a great mea-
sure dismissed. It seems to me a humbug to talk of compensa-
tion: it is completely begging the question. It is asked can
any harm arise from the present absence of a legal adviser?
Yes. In the arrangements we have to make great harm will
arise, if we have not some legal adviser in making such arrag,e-
ments—arrangements which few gentlemen in this room under-
stand. Ido not think that Mr. Foster, the former servant of
the corforaticin, is likely to aid us in Making what arrangements
it may be necessary to snake. (Cries of " Hear, hear."-) . Then,
as to compensation, I will esk bow we can ascertain that
the compensation is what the law places in hisd
hands. All
the documents on which this compensation woul be founded
must go through the town-clerk's hands, and we shall have to
go to our legal adviser to check his own accounts. Gentlemen,
se r o
it is a most important question for the council to take into con-
sideration. n. hl r. Cropper
as into the c ffers of
time,
his fees mgo
has stated something about the fees.
Under the arrangement that the towe.clerkshould be appointed
fori onlyt a temporary
'the town-council, and he mar be Hia. permanent salary.
There is another point which Ibe sorry Mr. r ostet's injudi-
cious friends have rendered 'necessaryto name. I had, care-
frilly abstained from any redectionS on r. Fost , but er can-
not, in my duty to the public, say that lie is a fit inan'flr the
situation. I will only niention one fact its any: mind con-
clusive. In the opposition to the inunicipalrefoi in bill, he went
into the House of Lords to oppose the bill- and wished for a
separate bill for this town, because the leaing,clanses and the
dock estate bill made it so complicated a, thing. for Liverpool.
He had at that moment returned from a drPotation, where it
had been agreed that the dock estate should .forin .a separate
bill, and, after he had an assurance on the part of gentle-
men connected with the government that the leasing clause
should be settled, expressed his satisfaction at the manner
in which that settlement was made. Yet on oath he de-
clared that his opposition to that bill was because it
would not apply to Liverpool without difficulty, owing to the
leasing clauses and dock estate bill. When he was asked did
you not know to the contrary? his answer was, "I would have
told the truth if I had been examined." I make no comment.
Mr. Mayor has said he will be examined on oath with regard
to the compensation; but are you sure of the truth on that exa-
mination, unless you cross-examine him. (A general move-
ment of surprise-) This, in my mind, is sufficient. I think it
most important that we should have the aid of Mr. Radclitfe's
talents for two or three weeks to complete our arrangements;
if, after that, you have no wish to continue him, you have it in
your power to choose any other man. With these remarks I
conclude my reply. I feel that, as an honest .man, I cannot
have with my own consent such an officer as town-clerk. And,
therefore, I must, for my own vindication, and for the vindica-
tion of those who have said that Mr. Foster is unfit for town-
clerk, adhere to my motion. (General expressions of surprise.)
The Mavo a.—With that impartiality which animates us, can
we proceed to the vote after so grave a charge heard against
such an individual, without giving, him the opportunity of re-
buttingit. And, gentlemen, that I may have no Partiality, I
ask the gentlmen here to remember the expressions made use
of "can you get at the truth?" on this question touching Mr.
Foster. I ask if any individual would think he had been fairly
and .honestly dealt with to have sentence andjudgement passed
on him in his absence,•• without .his haying the opportunity of
hearing it. (Cries of "Hear.")
Mr. Councillor RAT HBONE.—As that is the case, as it was not
told to mSelfl Moat confront him with the party who asked
him the quyestion. have stated facts, those facts I believe,
and I know to be true.
The MAYOR.—It is for the council to declare what they will
do. I, in the impartiality with which i declare lam influenced,
do not'think we can go to a division without taking the senti-
mentanf.the council on the charge.
Mr.Councillor Mr. Rathbone give his authority ?
The MAYOR.—Mr. Rathbone can act as he chooses. But I
submit we should hear Mr.' Foster in explanation.
Alderman Ev ANS.—If he had acted before the House of
Lords is a ssitness on one side of the question, and was not
asked on that point, it does not follow that he was not speaking
the truth.
Mr, Councillor HOPE.---1 am not sure that we have all rightly
Unde'rstood what Mr. Rathbone stated.
Councillor S AN DERS.—If Mr. Fester was called on oath
that to give certain testimony, and he only gave part of it, I
think that a serious charge. And if M r.' Rathbone be not pre-
pared to support that isiArge himself—if he says it is mily hear-
say evidence, it is but at act of justice in this council to,call
Mr. Foster in, and hear what he has to say with respect to it.
Mr. COuncillor RATHBONE.--it does not depend on the evi-
dence of any man, it was a fact that the leasing clause and the
duck bill were arranged before the town-clerk went to give his
evidence' before the House of Lords. It did not depend on-his
assertion, that the dock bill was thrown over at the tune that Mr
Foster went. to the House of Lords, and gave out as a reason that
the unicipahn hill could uot pass with regard to Liverpool, be-
cause the leasing clause and dock act rendered it inapplicable
to Liverpool. I will not withdraw the charge, I will stand or
fall by it. Gentlemen, they are facts iu the knowledge of many
gentlemen in this council.
Mr..Councillor SANDERS.—I beg to move that Mr. Foster be
called in.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON.—AIIow me to ask, if Mr. Foster
'were asked one question, other questions might arise, they
would go on fur 24 hours, and be .no nearer the subject. He
submitted that if Mr. Foster were called in they must have.
printed evidence before them of the proceedings of time House
of Lords. He merely submitted that, on the ground of expe-
diency, how far they could go into the evidence of Mr. Foster.
marks of Mr. Rathbomne, and that theyd should give their-votes
divested from any reference to that particular question. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. Councillor Hoes FA LL:—lt was a very grave charge, and
he saw a very great difficulty in calling in Mr. Foster to undergo
such an examination. He thought the whole of the examina-
tion should pass through the chairman, and that no gentleman
should Le allowed to ask a question.
Mr. Councillor RATUBONE said he had no objection to Mr.
Foster being called in. There were three questions which
occurred to him to be asked to which the examination might he
confined, which were•then dictated by Mr. Ratnbone, and taken
down in writing by the mayor-t
—l. Was the leasing clause ar-
ranged to your satisfaction before you gave your evidence in the
House of Lords ?-2. Was the arrangement respecting the dock
bill made to your satisfaction before you gave your evidence in
the House of Lords ? 3. Did you not upon oath, in your evi-
dence in the House of Lords, make these two questionS your
ground of objection to the passing of the bill respecting Liver-
pool ?—The best way would be to refer to the evidence previous

,a 0.....
was there not a provision in the act relating to that? (Mr. silered the present arrangements as merely temporary. On
Bolton sat down amidst laughter and cries of " Wednesdays each side of the
double row of The %met. part of the table
BOROUGH SESSIONS. might then be left clear fur the councillors to advance to and
Mr. RATHBONE moved the appointment of a committee for write, white the bottom might be appropriated to the a.cconiume
the purpose of making arrangements for holding the borough' dation of the reporters.
sessions, as he understood there was some difficulty in the way. .. . Mr. Couucidur RATH no NE suggested that etich member should
Mr. H. LAWREMcE said that no jury had been summoned by
have his desk and seat allotted liiin in a circle round the mayore - to
the late bailiffs. The sessions could not, therefore, be held in
. . - be which absentees would be easily diecovered.
the usual way, and it. was proposed to send the prisouers to be y,
tried at the Kirkdale Sessions. He doubted if any borough The motion of Mr. Lawrence, that all motions lie reduced to
sessions could henceforth be held without an application to the writing, with the amendment, ° recommend that all motions"
King in council. .• and " amendments," as well as motions, was then carried.
The MAYOR said he believed the reason why the usual Pre- The MAYOR said, before they proceeded to any further buei-
iterations for holding the borough sessions had not been made ness, he should beg them to allow him a few words as a neittee
was, that it was questioned whether it would be advisable to of favour to himself, to enable him better to facilitate his duties.
have any borough sessions at all, by which the borough would He told them when be was elected that be shook!' require all
be rendered liable to the maintenance of prisoners in the Boe their indulgence, and he' was sorry to tind that he had incurred
rough Gaol. That was a point which would remain for the 'the displeasure of a meMber of the council, his good friend Mr.
consideration of the council. Egerton Smith. He did not wish to lead the council into tax-
The council then adjourned at a little after four O'cleck,- tra,neoes Matters, but Mr. Smith was the last person in the wort/
having sat upwards of four hours, until next day at eleven. whom lie would speak to in terms likely to offend. He did not
think it would be desirable to fend arid ptoie; but he believed
SATURDAY. he had called Mr. Smith to order once or twice id the proceed- ' !
REPORTF.P.S. inos of the day before, and lie begged leave to assure Mr. Smith
Previous to the commencement of business, the AVO said • that in . •
doing so nothing could be further from his intention than
—Gentlemen reporters, it has been determined that for the
to hurt his feelings • He now offered him the most ample
future no reporters shall enter the room until it is intimated apology. He hoped they would put the most favourable con-
that
the meeting has resolved itself into a council. struction upon his actions, and attribute anything which might
PRELIMINARY PROCEEDINGS. offend to that natural auxiety there was, in the opening pro-
The MAYOR then said—before the reporters were admitted, eeedi
(rt
to. do all that was right, rather than any unkind
Mr. Radcliffe had made the necessary declaration previous to ne',
feeling on his part.
taking his office as town-clerk. He had directed him to eursue MaCouolcillor Smell was extremely anxious not to trespass
the course adopted in the old council, namely, that the prettied-
unnecessan y upon the public time, nor would he take any
ings of each meeting should commence by reading over the liberties in erties that room which were not warranted by custom or
proceedings of the previous one. Minutes of the proceedings preprtety. lie would briefly recapitulate—("No, no!") He • te.
of the last meeting were then read over. , begged their pardon, but he was called upon and would speak;
The TOWN-CLERK then said :—Mr. Mayor and gentletneri, 1 Be was making tome' remarksup un the subject of Me. Foster, on •
ant perfectly aware, on the communication of my friends, that which it had been said that there was a general prevailing opinion • '
the appointment you have done me the honour to make is one that it was impossible to tied' a person 'adequate to fill the office' '•-•.
that is to be understood, and properly so, by yourselves and then occupied by Mr. Foster. Upon thii he was going to make
myself, as being merely temporary : as such I receive it. On an observation, when he was, as he thought, improperly called- ..:
•your part' then, gentlemen, there can be uo delicacy in acting to order by the-Mayor. He was convinced that he was correct,- d
according to 'your discretion; on my part. there can be ,nu dis- and upon referring to the notes of a reporter .
o near iiiiu lie fi uLI I
grace• to myself if the appointment should not be continued. that Messrs. Sandars and Jordan ad both used‘thelangUatgii • --'
(Applause.). The Town-clerk then read the appointment of which the
mayor had denied to have been expressed when
the seuarterly meetings as fixed. on at the previous meeting of checking hi s
m.
the council. • Me' Councillor SitNDARS.—May I ask what sentiments I
The M AYOR.—The business to be proceeded in now will be expressed .?
the appointment ofttie remaining officers of the ceirporation, Mr. Councillor SMITtr.---/ will tell you. The mayor then, I
the secretary, the treasurer; and the subordinate officers. The thought, rather particularly said, "We have nothing to do with'
first office to consider of importance was the office
,of treasurer, the opinions of people oul of doors, and I felt myself rather in a'.
and it was competent for any gentleman to nominate a person humbled situation from being twice called to order." With
for that office. He might say that, so far as his own knowledge that explanation he sat down; he was sure lie should not intrude
of the present treasurer went, a more correct and respectable himself much on that council. He should never rise but on a
individual did not exist, a man who had more completely subject of importance. He was perfectly satisfied with the ex-. • •
kept himself aloof from politics of every kind, or a man whose planation of the mayor, but felt sorry that t he had made use of
,general character was so much respected. He could only say the word opotu yy
this, as his own feeling, that, unless there were very strong rea• The MAY oir was. not aware in calling Mr. Smith to order that .
sons to the contrary, he thought it would be au act Scarcely such remarks had been used.
jtietiliabletto dismiss a servant:so faithful from his office. He council. COMMITTEES.
thought it right to bear that testimony to his general character Mr. Councillor BoreroN coneelYed the business they were
and qualification. • • now upon was the appointment of committees as a general totes
Mr. 'Councillor HOPE thought they were open to adopt the lion. It perhaps would assist them in coming to a conclusion
course which they had adopted the day'befote, both with regard if the Mayor would inform them of the mode in
which commit-
to the town-clerk's office and every other office. Prior to their tee.s hail been appoitited. not that they should adhere to these
contirmine or annulling. the appointment of their present modes, but they would be guides to them as to how many coin-
treasurer,' he would suggest that they should appoint different 'Place'
s might lie requisite fur the objects they had in view.
committees to inquire into the nature and duties of the various ,
of-Beers, and be recommended such proceeding. 'He (Ms. H.) Ile MAYoR.h-As Mr. Bolton had called on him to state what
..
was anxious to have answered the inquiry, whether it were ne- course should be pursued in reepect of committees, the must tin-
ceesary that they should proceed to the re-appointment of Mr. portant committee they hail formerly had was, the finance coin-
Foeter, or another individual as treasurer, instanter, or, as in utittee; it tonsisted of time Mayor, ex officio, and all the gentle.,
the case of the town-clerk, that they were at liberty to-eprietint a tnen who had passed the chair, and also were added three or
four individuals Who had not passed the chair. The number al-.
committee to inquire into the nature and duties of the office?
If they had such liberty, he suggested the propriety of making together was about fifteen; they met weekly. The proceedings of
the finance conamittee were regularly entered in a book, and
no appointment at all that morning, or cancelling any appoint-
ment till the report of such committee had been received. annulled or confirmed at the monthly meetings of the council.
The Tow N-cmink.—By the municipal act it is required that There was another important committee which was the improve-
two officers, the mayor and town-clerk, shall be elected the
meta coMmittee, which existed for some time, and it generally
first general meeting of the council, iii each year. !'here was consisted of ten or eleven members chosen out of the council
no such provision with regard to the other affairs. It remaineff generally. The next was the freemen's committee, for the
paesing rd'young fteemen, which, of w
course, there as now no
therefore on the pleasure of that council.
Mr. Councillor Boterort quite condurred in the views Mr. necessity for. These, with the town dues committee, were all
Hope had. taken, and seconded the proposition for an inquiry he could call to mind. The finance was the principal and the
into the duties of the various officers and their emoluments, with most important. He should suggest more frequent meetings
a view of making all the reduction which could be made on the than the quarterly meetings of the present commit, for the pur-
salaries. pose of preventing the accumulation of businesS, as it had been
Mr. Councillor RATHBoNE thought it would greatly relieve found, in the former council, when a months intervened without
the council if the mayor should consider himself as moderator. a meeting', the accumulation of business had been Si). great as• to
It was a very gratifying thing for hint to bear testimony to the require the principal Part of a day td get through it. It was,
good conduct of old servants, and far be it from him to iustuuate therefore, highly expedient, if the law would permit, that two
anything against the treasurer- But he did think if the mayor committees and the finance committee should meet weekly, or
was to be moderator, that he should not offer such an opinion as as omen at requisite, and that they. simuld have intermediate
he had done with retard to the reappointinent of the treasurer. meetings to adopt or cancel their decisioueas they might please ;
lie (Mr. Itathbon4 begged pardon for offering this remark. then at their qtiarterly meetings they should out have their
en up unnecessarily.
The MAYOR was not aware that in what lie had stated he had time taken
TOWN-CIA:UK —The act gave the Mayor (by the 60th
done anything more than strictly discharge the duties of his The
office : and he thought he had not gone beyond it in merely section) the power of calling a meeting of the council whenever
putting the council—a great proportion of whom were entire he thought proper. I n the quarterly meeting there was no nee
strangers to the treasurer—in possession of all the .information cessity for giving notice of the object of the meeting ;at a spe-
in his power as to'his correctness. More than that he (lid not chit meeting there was that necessity.
intend to say, and it was his duty to do it. He should certainly The MAYOR would ask the town-clerk whether the notice to
endeavour to be moderator. He was quite aware that nothing be given of a special meeting Must be a general notice, or wag
h stringent or astringent to detail its object.
was more material than that a chairman should abstain front
The ToWN-cltenit.—There will he no necessity for any pare
giving an opinion. ''lie did not think he had done snore than his
titular notice, in calling a committee together.
duty in puttiugAte councilin possession of inftoination on which
they might wisfrto act, which accident• had given him the op- A Councillor.—Can a committee adjourn.
portunity of knowing. The TOWN-ci.Eß.K.—There can lie no doubt of that.
Mr. Counciilor lit:mown! perfectly concurred in what had • wATcH COmsIIITEE:
fallen from the mayor, he was sure the mayor must be greatly The Mayor stated that, in order to provide for the interval
relieved, after whal had fallen from Mr. Rat hbone, by the cir- which might elapse between their entrance into office and the
curnstance of a committee being appointed to inquire into all appointment of it watch committee; and, subsequently, of a con-
those officers, tie carry ing of which motion he very much wished stabulary force, the previous council, upon going out of office,
to advocate. had thought right to direct the stun of 1.:1000'4to be placed in the
The MA Yoß.—One word before he proceeded further. With- bank, for the purpose of paying the ,vages oh' time present police.
out retracting one word that he had said, he considered himself Mr. Councillor Jog` Holmes wished to know whether the
while sitting there as mayor, fully entitled. and that it was his treasurer could now pay meneys•
duty, to express his opinion as a councillor on all occasions, The Ohteo.— pay the accounts or the late corporation
although he might be mayor. were closed they were balanced as far as fat} in. the treasurer's
Mr. Councillor HOPE wishedbut to make one inquiry, whether Power- But he thought it tight to receive all moneys and to
the mayor had not a second vote as mayor in their proceedings ? pay all sums due•on the respective bonds of parties. Further'
The Towts-ceettit.—The words of the act are, " a second or than that he does not pay anything,
Ca
Mr. vote." The "rower-cLERK.—Iti the 59th section it is enacted that
Mr.'Couneillor RAoußohE acknowledged he did net under- " the treasurer of an borough shall pay ne money on account
stand very well how any gentleman could fill the office of mayor of the Mayor, aldermen, or burgesses of a borough, save only
and councillor. .He should like to know if he had a vote as in such case as is provided by this act, or upon the ordel• in
mayor and a vote as councillor ? writing of the council, signed by three or more members of the.
The TowN-ceeetx.—There could he no dotibt on that point; coutreittand count•ersigned by the town-clerk of such borougle,"
the words of the act were not a casting vote merely, but "aecond - Mr. Councillor HENRY HoI.MLS wished to know, whetherthe
casting vete." (Hear.) act included the lighting as well as the watching of the town.
or
The MAyoß.—ls it the pleasure of the council that in the No answer was given.
motion of Mr. Hope, seconded by Mr. Bolton for a committee Mr. Councillor JoHN HOLAtEs thought it important that a
finance committee should be appointed.
of inquiry, the old officers of the corporation should in the mean
Mr. Councillor lloee. took the liberty of moving 'that two
time be continued ?
mmittees be now a
The Teiontit
owitic suggested that in that ease it would he coppointed.
better to say nothing about the old officers, but proceed to time The Dieing.—l beg to recommend that you should reduce
election of the committee, and according to time act the officers your
Councillor motion to wrHoliiting.
r. E.—Oh, I beg pardon.--(Laughter.)
would remain. M
After some discussion the motion of Mr. Hope, seconded by Time Tow e-hekititt being requested, read over a list of the
Mr. B 41ton, was read from the chair as follows : corporate officers.
"That a committee be forthwith appointed to examine into Mr. Councillor Hoes then put in this motion—" That a corn-
the duties and emoluments of ail the paid officers of time corp. mittee be appOintede consistitig of the followiOg gentlemen,
ration, and to make a full report thereon to this council as soon * * * * for the purpose of electing the paid officers, milli
e." the exception of the recorder and town•cleilt.
as possibl
ouncillor Hopa.—As he understood, that committee had Mr. Councillor MA K WELL hoped the mayor was not included
M r. C
full power to examine and call for papers ? in the enquiries of the committee.
' Mr. Councillor BoieroN.h-And that the persons forming that Mr. Councillor BOLTON seconded the motion and begged
committee had full power to ask any questions that might be to have a counnitte appointed " fat the purptieeofeuquiring into
deemed expedient?. every branch of expenditure."
Mr. Conucillor RA wnoN.7-Should the committee so appoint- Mr. Councillor R A THIMN E.—l beg partlon•L—the mayor is net
ed claim the assistance of ayrofessional man i. a paid officer.
The MAYoR.—IIe should put that confidence in that corn- Mr. Councillor BLACKBURNE thought it would be a Vet y in;
mittee so appointed, that they should obtain ail the information vidious thing for any gentieman to undertake the muffle of in-
they required on the question. He should leave it to their dis- quirt' into the ex peddiaire. He doubted very much whether
creiion. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. '. • the whole labour could be accomplished by one committee.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE said, so fully did he concur with He thought it would be well now to have a committee appointed
the motion, that he would not in the least oppose it. There to consider the best plan olappointing conimittees. Ile thought
were tWo things which he wished to bring before time notice several committees might be appointed to advantage. He
of the council. -That, as on all motions which are made, except begged to suggest that a couitnittee foe that purpose be up-
on quarter days, notices must he given three clear days before pointed.
hand, he would suggest, that every gentleman having a motion Mr. Councillor Bolero* conceived that the object of the
to make at tht quarterly meetings should be required to fur- present committee was rather to revise tue put than to make
nisi' a copy of . in writing, by which means the motion would any provision for the fitture—to eutotire as to the sale% ice and
be better understood than when collected from a desultory con- the various other business to beh.arried on be the carious other
versation. The second point was on the formation of commit- business to be carried on by the various jfficers for time con-
tees—that some general mode of forming committees should be eideration of the council afterwards. 'He thought it would not
adopted by die council. He would suggest that some general at all interfere with the suggeetion made by Mr. Blackburn.
mode of electing committees should be first fixed on before The MAYOR would now ask whether it was their pleasure td
electing any gentleman a member of a committee. It might adopt the
TOWN reso
CLERKlution then read Mr. Hope's motion, which wag
save them hereafter a great deal of trouble, and save also the The ~
feelings of the individual Members of the council. passed.
Mr. Councillor HORSFALL inquired whether the committee Mr. Councillor Hoeu.—lt wont(' now •be necessary that the
were to report facts, or to give theiropinions. (Cries of Both 1") gentlemen comprising that committee should be appointed;
Mr. Councillor Hoots suggested, that the words "with full which he should be glad to leave in the Mayor s hands, or if he
powers to report thereon" be inserted in the motion, which was would suggest in what way it should be Male.
done accordiagly. The Menet would recommend that there were not too many
The MAYOR.—Let it lie understood by the council that if a appointed, fur it was always found that the more members ape
motion was seconded and not opposed by env one, silence would painted on a committee the lees work was done, because there
be understood as agreeing to that motion. He now asked them was always the excuse —" theme are plenty Without me."
if they were all agreed on that motion. Mr. Councillor BoLtoN proposed that the committee should
consist o
No answer. f seven.
The MAYOR.—I consider this motion as carried. The next The MAYOR would ask if the vote should be taken by ballot
(Cries of " No !—Name, name.)
point was the appointment of a committee. Perhaps Mr. Law-
rence would suggest what was to be done. Mr. Councillor I. Citoeeitit suggested that each councillor;
Mr. Alderman FREME seconded the proposition of Mr. Law- should write down seven names, and they who had greatest
rence, that no notion be made without its being submitted in numbertof votes should be elected on the coil:4ll4w. (Cries of
writing. " No, no Hearne.)
Mr. Counclor BOLTON quite concurred in the same way. Mr. Couneillor tlotot wee then propoeed, but begged to dee
At the same t ne, some men may not have been in the habit of cline on the ground of ill health
expressing their thoughts thus in the regular order. He thought The MAY on hoped the duties were not of th
healtth. a appallinlie g
pe nad
they should not bind themselves too strictly by that rule. '['here tore as to be injurious to any getaleuitin 's lim
was a technicality in recording resolutions which persons iu Mr. Hopeu w
ncilloulor d sßAtanttleoree thought the nuirber of seven tote
d.
business were not very much accustomed to, -
Co
Mr. Councillor Sanekus.—Surely every gentleman here is small for so impurtant a committee.
•
competent to draw out a notice of his own motion. 'lime MA Y 0 a.—Supposing that this committee were appoiut.
Mr. Councillor LAweereco•—What lie• wished was, that a ed, iu the first inst,thee, to cousist ()teem' ; and if they found
motion should be committed to paper. It was much better that that number not sufficient, they should report to the Founcili
they should have a gentleman's own motion on paper than be and a turt her number be elected.
°blond to collect the substance from the course of his addrees. Mr. Conucillor flchoe. —Or
with power to add to their nurr-
Forehis part, he was much better able to write his thoughts than her. • (Cries of " No,-no.") .•
speak them, and he believed it to be the case trial everybody The f
MrollowinOuncig gentllorlemen
nere tiled appnintau d, viieh.:— The
else. The technical terms might be afterwards inserted by the Nlavor. . C Bolto, r A Melt:t vii.:_ he
erk. Couhicillor I. Holmes, Mr. Councillor Maxwell, Mr. Councillor
town.cl•
Mr. Councillor II ATHBONE suggested that it might be merely llorsfall, and Mr. Alderman Evans
a recommendation to write down their inetions, and to that, lie Mr.
mmCittee—ouncillor COGLAN.—Prior to the appointment of that
thought, there could be no objection. co •
Mr. Alderman F Remit did not understand Mr. Lawrence's, The ItlAyott.—l thought the committee was appointed:
motion, and begged to withdraw his seconding of it, because he Mr. Counciller CueLAN be ieveil not ;he belieted their names
considered that it merely meant the motion should be committed were only mead over. His observations werenot made with re-
to paper before it was passed. fereuce to that particular committee;
The MAYOR.—In • point of fact that was always done. The to thought
....e it was deSirahlei in the first place; to have the con-
but as a general measure.
enwn-clerk took down a motion, and it was afterwards read trout seta of every gentleman that he would attend to perform the
the chair. requisite duties of the committee. It was also a very important
,
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN quite concurred in the observe- Point that the Counnou COULIeII Slitalld approved the gentle-
lions of Mr. Lawrence, that gentlemen should furnish a written men who might be named as tic members of that committee.
copy of their propositions; such a course would very much facie It vomit! he a very invidiimus task mu tiet up and say, " I oppose
litate.their proceedings. He would make it particularly Pressing or object to any pat Ocular geutitanaim' aho might be named as
and stringent that no gentleman should be open to inure a rest,- a member Of the committee. He thought it was desirable that
solution without a written statement of .that resolution. Isle they should all constant to the aPPoilltlueut, and in the least
.would recommend its being. strictly attended to. As Mr. Freine effensive way to the thgs of the I'lmi-theta of the committee 4
had declined seconding the motion, he begged leave to take that and•the best way lie thought would be, when a gentlemau watt
proposed, that the sense of the meetiutt should be take:] by a
duty upon himself.
Mr. Couucillor HEYWoRTH approved of what had been said show of hnds, and then a ion., i
dif such ivisf any diwasfference of ophoon
by Mr. Lawrence, but be did not approve of that particular should exist on it; then
a ntmber approved of by
If the general body. By such mode; such gentleman would be
word astringent which laid been applied to it. . (Laughter.)
continued in the appointment by the general sense of the meete
it were so, he was persuaded it would be injurious, as malty
could express a emotion with more clearness than they could
jog, and they could proceed with pleasure in their task. He
write it down ; especially when amongst a number of iudivi- therefore submitted that the best course of obtaining the sense
guest difficulty in writing down
duals. He might find a veryof the meeeting would be to propose the name of each gentle;
his sentiments on paper. Fie should, therefore, recommend ma,: serial:.:o,R.
should be written down; but -thei, pleased inaenld tu•ftetwards take a show of hands and du ai
that, as a general rule, a motion . tc mg him.
that the rule should be without this astringent clause. !hie M -
ttlhmeen.nasmenesse—The town-clerk says the legal manner is to put
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN.—Stringent not astringent.
proper time to tiring this before '
quire? of
e theaccommittee one by one to the council; and take
Mr. Councillor HoPE.—The
them as a resolution would be when the bye=laws were under Mr. Councillor RATIUMNE.—WouId they O.IIOW hiM te Jae
consideration, He should suggest that for time present this should He believed the Mayor was, ex tilficio, a Member of al l
be adopted as the rule. committees.
The MAYOR.—Mter what had been said he thought the The MAYOR.—That has beer. the rule, but it is not binding.
members of the council, in all cases where it was possible, i Mr. Councillor Itaxintoria: believed there could be but one.
should hand in their motions in writing. He would take the ' opinion in the room on that point. Ile begged leave to 'move
liberty, if occasions should arise, if they did not do so to tell that " the mayor be, ex elicit), a inembet of all committees."
them that they should do it. ; This motion was seconded and carried.
Mr. Councillor EVANS.—You should giie us the facilities of . The names of eac hof the above-Lanted. gentlemen were tiled
writing.
. 'called over, seriatim, end carriedt as a comniitiee. •
The MAybe.—Facilities would be made in future! He coat Mr. Councillor Llueu now moved •t that gtolnan t t e e he abet