The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-07-01 00:00:00

3:4143c1:tat ParliAinEnt.

HOUSE OF. LORDS—MoNna v.
IRISH MUNIEIPA,L-CORPORATIONS BILL—THE COMMONS
SMENDMENTSs
An immense number of. petitions respecting the Irish corpo-
rations bill, a portion of which were in favour of the bill as
amended by the lords, were presented to the house. These hav-
ing been disposed of,
Viscount MELBOURNE called the attention of their lordships
to the amendments made in the bill as sent back to them from
the House of Commons, and to these amendments he confi-
dently hoped they would give that cool, that calm and impartial
consideration which the authority of the body from whom they
emanated demanded at their bands. He trusted that their lord-
ships would not suffer themselves, on the one hind, to be in any
respect intimidated, and their claims to an independent exercise
of .their rights to be affected by insulting menaces; and on the
other ,'that they would nut permit their judgment to be warped,
then:feelings biassed, their resentments roused by any violent
opposition which might have been made to them, and to whieh,
because in his opinion it carried its own refutation in its own
absurdity, he did not think it necessary further to refer. Ott
that account he hoped they would give to those amendments the
fair, calm, and impartial consideration which they deserved.
He thought they must admit that, if those proceedings should
terminate in a difference between the two holises, they had com-
menced, the warfare in a rough, rude, and offensive manner,
(Cheers.) They sent down to the other house of parliament a
bill totally changed and altered in all its provisions—changed
in its title, altered entirely in the whole of its principles, haying
no resemblance or similitude to the bill sent up from the 'louse
of Gammons eXcept in the subject matter cf it, resembling Ain
nothing except that both measures related to the municipal Cur-,
porations- of"-Ireland. His lordship then proceeded to state at
length the nature and effect of the amendments made to the
bill as amended by their lordships in the commons. The ques7
tion .now was, whether they would adopt the general principles
of those amendments, or whether they would reject them, cud
it was needless foritim fo detain their lordships with minor de-.
tails, which, if they were prepared to adopt a great principle,
would be easily settled. , His lordship then briefly alluded to
the impolicy of refusing to Ireland what had been granted to
England and Scotland, and asked whether it would be wise and
prudent to cicati ize arid tear open those wounds in Ireland
whish were -now healing in the way which the oen-and rude
rejection of this measure would have the effect of doing? The
noblefviscount then referred to the speeches of Lord Lyndhurst
in 1827, when Master of the Rolls, against catholic emancipa-
tion, and to his subsequent changl of opinion when he supported
that measure. What he complained of was, not that that
learned lord had changed his opinions so rapidly on that ques-
tion, but that in all the arguments he now riled lie seemed dis-
posed to recede from the opinions and 'reasonings nhi. h he
professed and.urged in 1829, and reverted to those which held in
1827. The following werei his concluding observations:—in
1834 the government of this country was dissolved under cir-
cumstances to which it was unnecessary for him to allude. The
noble lords who then came into office chose to do that which he
should ever consider as a most violent and tinjestifible act, and
which, bad he been placed in their situation, he would not have
presumed to do—of dissolving the parliament at that time sit 7.
ling. He maintained that, if they could not form their govern-
ment without dissolving parliament, they were bound to give up
the formation of their government. But, however, they dis-
solved that parliament; another was chosen under all the power
and influence, whatever that might be, which they possessed as
a government. When they met that parliatnent, they were .in
a minority of seven, of ten, of thirty. This Year their minority
began at 45, and increased at the last great division on the pre-
sent question to 86. What was the reason, what was the cause
of this? They would not be willing to attribute it to any merit
in the government, nor did lie wish them to do so, but he wished
them to consider whether it was not owing to their own impru-
dence, owing to their own misconduct—to the manner in which
they sought to separate themselves from the whole body of the
people, the manner in which they tried to do every thing unpo-
pular, and abstained from any thing which had ought of grace
or popularity in it. (Hear, hear; from the ministerial benches.)
He wished them to consider whether this was not the solution
of the difficulty, and it would be well for them to bear in mind,
when reflecting on this, that, while the majority in the other
house had been steadily increasing, it was remarkable that iso-
lated elections had for the most part gone in their favour. There
was another matter on which he wished to address a word to
them They had been often told in the course of the present
session that they (the peers) had with them, and against the
ministry, the great majority of all who were respectable, of all
who had power, weight, and influence—the great majority of
the gentry, the great majority-of the clergy, and that they had
with them distinctly the voice of the universities. He would
not deny that this, perhaps, might be the truth, nor would he
stop to inquire whether it was so or not; hut he implored them-
not to be too confident. 'He had the greatest respect for the
gentry, and for the clergy he had no disrespect, nor did he feel
any thing like to the universities. But let theirs depend
upon it, all that would not suffice. (Hear, hear.) Those inter-
ests had been obliged to cede the palm of victory toothers, to
yield to opposing and conflicting interests, and that even at a
period when the interests of the urban population of commeice
and of agriculture, the power of the dissenters, and the general
influence of public opinion were as nothing in comparison to
what they were now.. (Cheers.) He would tell their lordships
that great measures had been carried in opposition to those in-
terests on which they relied; that dynasties had been subverted,
families placed and maintained upon the throne (great cheer-
ing) in opposition to the fiat of the gentry, and most certainly,
in opposition to the great majority of the clergy. (Cheers.) He
earnestly entreated them to conciliate and unite together the
interests and feelings of all classes of society; he entreated them
to take the first step towards that consummation by acceding to,
those amendments which had been sent up to them from the
commons, and thus fixing their weight, their authority, their
power, and their dignity in the feelings, and sympathies, .and
affections of the people of Ireland, and at the same time those
of this country. (Cheers.) The noble viscount concluded by
moving that the commons' reasons and amendments be taken
into consideration.
Lord LYNDHURST commenced by remarking that the greater
part of the speech of the noble vicount contained little more
than apersonal attack upon himself. The course which he
(Lord L.) followed with respect to catholic emancipation, he
acted upon with men of as much honour, of as much attach-
ment to the constitution, as deeply read in the laws and history
of Britain, as independent in their views and conduct as any
body of men that ever existed in this country. (Cheers.)
When that vast measure was adopted by the lords then in con-
nexion with him, it was adopted after a calm, cool, and delibe-
rate investigation of the whole question ; and because they felt
it to be their duty to recommend to their sovereign the necessity
of pursuing that course in the then state of the country. The
noble viscount had stated that he (Lord L,) had said on a
former night that the consequences, which resulted from that
measure were contrary to the expectations which he had form-
ed. He repeated shat observation. His lordship said, io con-
tinuation, the consequences which have resulted from that mea-
sure, the conduct of those individuals who were parties, to it
and who were eager for its accomplishment, have disappointed
my expectations; and I cannot do better for the purpose. of
I illustrating what mean on this occasion than to recall to your
lordships' recollection a quotation made at that time; descriptive
of the consequences that would result from granting the mekt
sure of emancipation to the Roman catholics of Ireland :-
- " Simul alba nautis

. Stella refulsit,
Defluit saxis agitatus humour :
Concidunt venti, fugiuntque nubes,
Et.minax, sic Di voluere, ponto.
Unda recumbit."
That was the quotation made for the purp6se of illustrating the
consequences that would result from the passing of that mea•
sure. Mark the effects which have flowed from. it, and say
whether they are not directly the reverse of all that are denoted
and indicated in the passage to which.l have referred. Step by
step, since that time, encroachments have been madenpon 'the
protestant establishment, and continued With pertinacious aril-
mosity, contrary to the pledges at that lime made as an eneou,
ragement to pursue the course, we then adopted (Hear, hear.)
The noble visconnt further goes on to say that at the time we,
entered office, in 1834, we pursued a most unjustifiable course
in advising his majesty to dissolve parliament. He made that.
as a statement and an assertion, but upon what grounds he has
advanced the statement, and what are the reasons assigned for
the opinion, we are left in utter ignorance.
,What, my lords,
can be more regular, what can be more just, what can be
more in accordance with the principles of our free constitution
than this—that when his majesty is advised to make a change
in his councils, an appeal should be made to the sentiments and
wishes of the people of England to sanction and support an act
so done by his majesty? It was in accordance ritll that prin-
ciple, almost invariably acted upon on a similar occasion, that
ministers then advised 'a dissoliition of parliament. It appears
to me a constitutional course, a legislative course,.a wise and
proper course to pursue. (Cheers.)-' Thenoble viscount seems

co conceive that Cie are to a certain extent bound to follow the
opinions of the other house upon this subject. I beg leave to
say that this house also represents the nation—that we are no
less the representatives of the people; and I believe at this mo-
ment, whatever may be the noble viscount's opinion, that we
as fully, and no less fairly, represent the opinions, the senti-
ments, the feelings of the great body of the nation as their re-
presentatives in the other house of iiarliarnent. (Cheers.) I.
feel, and the noble viscount has expressed, the utmost 'possible
respect.for the opinions of the other house, and 'whenever 1
have the misfortune to differ from them upon any Conclusion of
state policy, and I am sure my noble friends around me itre,itn-
Pressed:with the same conviction, I feel it to be my duty cautiously
to deliberate and fully to consider that difference; but when
am not entirely convinced by the reasons they allege, it is my
duty, as an independent member of parliament, and of this
house, to act according to the dictates of my tinbiassedludgment.
That is the course I have pursued—the course which the noble
lords with whom I am acting have, I am persuaded, pursued.
It is because we feel the consequence of the measure as sent up
to us originally by the other house, and presented to us in its
amended form, would be productive of mischief to the united
empire, and of great evil and calamity to Ireland itself, and
that it would be fatal to the protestant interests of that country
—it is because we are impressed with this conviction that we re-
fused to pass the bill in its,forrrier shape, and itis on the same
grounds that we are disinclined to adapt the amendments now
proposed to us. The noble vis Count empleyed the greater part
of his speech ,not with reference to the question before the
house, but to the purpose tci tiPhich I have referred, and to what
fell from me on a former night. I am extremely desirous of
saying something to your lordships upon that subject. I am
desirous of redeeming the pledge I gave with. reference to it,
and I am conscious that I owe it income sort to your lordships.
I feel that the censure heaped upon me, and the attacks di-
rected against me, are in some sort also directed against your
lordships. First, as to my accusers. •The• first of my accusers
in order of time was a gentleman, a member of the other house
'of parliament, who immediately after the bill was sent down to
the other house, was sent off to Ireland as an apostle of agita-
tion for the purpose of creating a movement in that country.
(Cheers and laughter.) Meetings were called, resolution's were
prepared, justice to Ireland,—the usual topic—equality of civil
institutions, and those words to which the noble viscount has
alluded, aliens by descent or aliens by blodd, or sane expres-
sion of for the purposenf getting
natelym, however, the plot did not
little that
a dt
i;o
nwe descantednrortti
di
up a
entirely succeed. But that gentleman, wife .had been used ,to
missions of this kind, was not without his'sanices:(a
for, as has been stated in the course of the' evening, he threw
another ingredient into the caldron which he knew was power-
ful in its operation. He created alittle bustle for a day or two
whichwhichhowever,happily,
itlbearno isenmity h t
a( p)
that
vocation (great layghter); and if I had shown any. enmity to
hint, it would'have subsided almost in a inoment, fromthegreat
pleasure I have derived'over and over again from his light and
brilliant eloquence, and above all from the abundant. amuse-
ment he has lately afforded me by his felicitous explanations,
and the extraordinary drollery by which the end .of that state-
ment was accompanied. (Cheers and latighter.) That gen-
tleman was my first accuser. The next. my lords, was a man
of a 'very different statnp, for nothing can he more strongly'cop-
'trasted with the wolf-tetnpered Weapon of the gentlernan'ao
whom have referred, than the coarse rusty flail (if I may
si) express myself) if his associate. I have not powers of de-
scription adequate to the task of painting him, but I wish. I
were for the rnomentVossessed of these. which the noble viscount
so eminently enicv.:'• I shall never forget, and,youilordships,
Lan! sire, never will, the portrait which he drew oil a former

night of this person—how he appeared wrapped in mystery, aria
heralded by portents, visiting our planet once only in the revo-
lutions of a century-:those who gazed. upon him, doubtful Whe-
ther he ought to be considered as a benevolent or a malignant
genitiss--" whether.. a spirit of health or goblin damned." Ac-
carding to the quotation of the noble viscount, the noble 16rd
seemed 'almost as if he would say, Wrapped in a spirit, of
,ad-
joration, pursuing the quotation—" call thee king, father 1"
wish I possessed the powers which the noble viscount displayed
upon that occasion; but this person has so scathed himself, -ha's
so exhibited himself in a variety of postures,. not always the
most seemly and decent, amidst the shouts and applause of a
multitude, that all description on my part is totally unnecessary.
But these:exhibitions have not been bootless to hiin ; he has re-
ceived lavish contributions (cheers,) I may say ducal (loibi
cheers and laughter,) from the connexions of the present govern-
! merit, while at the same time he has wrung by the aid- of the
priests the miserable pittance from the hands of the starving and
famishing peasant: , (Loud: cheers.) This person has in every
shape and form insulted your lordships, your lordships' house,
and many of you individually—he has denounced you, doomed
you todestruction,.and then, availinghimsell of your courtesy, he
comes to your lordships' bar, where he listens to your proceedings,
and he marks and he measures you as his victims—•'Etiara in
senatum venit—notat, designatque oculis ad cmdem unurnquern-
que nostram." (Cheers.) The person to whom these expres-
sions were applied had at least one redeeming quality—witness
the last scene of his life, if you read it in the description of the
historian- Mindful of his former elevation and dignity, so able,
so politic, so eloqiient, he ever retained the virtue of courage.
(Great cheering, and the eyes of several noble lords were di-
rected towards the bar.) Where was this accusation made and
under what circumstances? At a meeting of the inhabitants of
Middlesex, where those friends of free institutions, those de- •
claimers for justice—eternal justice—for the edification of his
audience, vented his coarse and scurrilous. jests at the murder
of nmonarch, and at the same time, and almost in the same
breath, insulted by the insidious venom of his flattery the suc-
cessor of that monarch, our present
.most gracious Sovereign.
Such is the, man who has assailed me, such the circumstances
under which the assault was made. cAnothet assailant, to whom
I must ,allude, is one of 'some gentler demeanour, of bland
speech, of most amiable manners, a little too strongly tinctured
with ultra-liberalism. When I say the individual to whont I am
now referting is my assailant, I mean that he is my reported
accuser; for allow use to be incredulous on the' subject, and. I
am quite sure that you will share thatincredulitywith me. The
no'ule lord to whom I refer has long been a member of the other
house of parliament. As a whig.he must have studied the con-
stitution and forms of that.house. As the leaderof it, it is his
duty,particularly to attend to the order and regularity of 'its
proceedings. Ele.is a writer on theconstitution, and knowsjhe
importance of preserving the independence of the two houses of
parliament. Is itsossiblei: then,nto,suppose that a pers6n so
circurnstanced,should, availinehithself of, your lordship? pour..
tesy, come to.the bar of this house, collect words spoken in the
heat oldebate, and, then going to the other house, there repeat
them, and attack and, denounce the speaker of them. (Hear,
,hear.) that,possible ? Am I not doing' justice to the noble
lord insupposing that he could not so have acted? But this is
not all 1 have another ground for my incredulity. I long had
the honour of a seat in the other house ,of pailiathent, and I
know well, from my.nbservation of the conduct of the righthon.
gentleman who then filled the chair, that if any• individual,
whatever his situation in that house might have been, had Come
from ;your lordships' bar repeating .and attempting to observe
upon what he had heard there, he would instantly have been
called to order, . (Hear.) • I am now speaking of •past times.
(Laughter.) But I know the right hon. gentleman, who at the
present .moment occupies the chair of the other house of parlia-
ment, and am proud to call hinnany friend. He is a lawyer by
profession, and sat for many years on the whig side of the house,
and therefore must of necessity be acquainted with constitutional
law and practice. I cannot, then, but suppose that he would
have interfered for the purpose of checking a proceeding of so
much irregularity as that which has been attributed to the noble
.lord. This is my second ream:info!, being incredulous on the
subject. But, my bolds, I have yet another reason. The noble
-lord to whom I allude, the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment, presides in some sort over the justice of the country.
He must be well acquainted with the first principles of justice,
and no principle was more sacred than this—that a man should
not be put-on his trial in his absence. (Hear, hear.) I can-
not, therefore, easily believe that the .noble lord would have
made such a charge in a place where it was impossible for me to
answer it. lam not defending the noble lord; lam stating
reasons for believing that the observations attributed to the noble
lord never could have fallen from him. I cannot, I repeat,
imagine that the noble lord had made a charge against mein my
absence, when, of course, 1 had no opportunity of replying to it,
or ef, explaining my meaning. (Hear, hear.) lam the more
confirmed in this opinion, when 1 recollect that that noble lord
is the author of a dramatic work, in which the grand inquisitor
is made to boast of the fair manner in which his court is con-
ducted, in comparison with ordinary courts. He observes that
au act of accusation even is not allowed to issue against a person
until he has been heard in his defence. The poetical lines, my
lords, are these : , .
" It does nothold its prisoners accused
Till they themselves are heard." (Laughter;)
I do therefore think, that if that noble lord had intended to
make a charge against me, he would, in common courtesy, and
in accordance with the 'ordinary rules -which prevail in both
houses of parliament, certainly in this, and formerly in the other,
not have done so without first giving me notice, in order that I
might have bad, if necessary, communication on the subject
with some member of the other house. (Hear, hear.) These
are the reasons whiehinduce me not to give credit to the report
of a charge and accusation. having been made against pie by the
noble lord: Now, asao the charge itself, what is it ? •It is this
—that I stated as a reason for not granting municipal institu-
tions to the Irish, that ," they were aliens by descent, that they
spoke a different language,
. and had different habits from outs;
that they considered •us to be invaders of their soil, and were
desirous of removing us frOm the country." 1 made no such
statement, nor did I say anything at all resembling it. No ex-
pressions ever fell from me upon which any person, not of a
weak intellect, or not disposed to misunderstand and missepre-
sent what I stated, could have put such a construction. (Hear.)
That this was the case is obvious, I think, from the conduct of
hthe n
rnnueb;
do
noble lords
on
the
o opposite.eca oNnV
whenhat did
it
is
h the
said,n ola
those e
8(
wikleerle-
utteredwade n
ob y
commentme?
He
remainedwhatever
on perfectlywhat
are quietaow
considered
i n his pla
as
es
most,and
extraordinary and unjustifiable expressions. Hear; hear.) The
noble marquis who, it will be remembered, took so active a part
in those debates, remained equally silent. •In fact, no notice at
all was taken of what fell from me on the occasion alluded' to,
and no such feeling was then excited as attempts have been
since made to raise. (Hear, bear.) It is true that the noble
marquis some fourteen days afterwards, and subsequent to the
scenes which were got up in Ireland, and before the inhabi-
tants of Maryleboner made some allusion to what he called
"never to be forgotten expressions." [The Marquis of Lans-
downe.—lt was only a few days after the discussion that I al-
luded to them.] It was a great many days after, for it was on
the occasion, as your lordships will recollect, of my presenting
a petition from a Roman catholic priest. The noble marquis
then referred to those words, either in `censure or in compli-
ment, expressing his regret that I had used them, and his hope
that I would explain them. I replied that I had nothing to ex-
plain, and that I would satisfy Your lordships that I had never
made the statement attributed-to me. The charge against me
has been repeated this evening by the noble viscount opposite.
Now' ,let me direct, your lordships attention to the statement
really made by me, every word of which Lavin completely jus-
tify. It was frequently asked during the debates 'on the Irish
municipal bill, and on the occasion to which allusion has been
particularly made, ".Willou deny to Ireland what you have
granted :to England ?" What was the
.auswer eiven to that
question? It was this—that the ministers themselves have in
their own bill proceeded' on ,the principle of applying different
provisions to Ireland, and have refused, in consequence of the
peculiar state of Ireland, to (srant the same powers to the 'lrish
municipal corporations as they granted to the English corpora-
tions. (Hear.) One of ,the arguments which I used on the
-evening alluded to was to this effect —.that it was absurd,
unless the state . of. society in the two countries could be
shown to be the same, to say that the institutions which are:
good in the one country must necessarily be good in the other;
and. 1 illustrated my meaning by a kind of school-boy reference.
to• the bed of Procrustes. Again, the ministers proposed to
abolish the present corporations in Ireland,: for what reason ?
Because, they are-party institutions, and therefore productive of
evil. I observed, that there were two parties in Ireland much
embittered against each other; and that the establishment of
new corporations after the ministerial plan would be a substi-
tution 'of party corporations of a new sort, 'in lieu of those
which might be abolished. That was my argument, and that
led legitimately and properly to a deScription of the two parties
in Ireland. And what was the description I gave of them ?
Ido not flinch from it: trepeat it. On the one side,' I Said,
there is one-fourth of the population of English descent and
habits, protestant in religion, and adhering warmly to the con-
nexion with this country. Isahat 'an 'accurate deseription of
one of these parties? '('Heer, hear.) • Whoavere on the other
side? Persons of a different, and,' with regard to the English
party to whom I referred, of an alien descent: The sense in
which these words were used are quite obvious. They differ to
a great extent in manners, language,..habits, and religion, and
they'look on us as invaders. I admit that I said they were
anxious for a separation and desirous to drive us from the coun-
try. Is this, or is it not, a correct description of the two parties
in Leland? (Loud cries of " Hear.") When I gave that de-
scription lat least acted fairly. Iso thought, and so consider-
ed; and who, my lords, were my instructors? Those persons
who now denounce and accuse me. They were rny instructors.
(Cheers.) Who is it that whenever it suited his . purpose
worked on the feelings and prejudices, arising out of a differ-
ence of desCent, that called the protestants of Ireland foreign-
ers, Saxons, SassenaChs? (11ear, hear.) Who is it that has
over and overagain, whenever it -suited hiS particular object,
declared that he never would cease to excite one portion of the
population against the other,
" As long as popish spade and scythe
• " Shall dig and cat the Sassenach's tithe?"
Who is it that has applied, with the same view of exciting a
feeling of hostility and antipathy, the term " Sassenach" to a
noble lord, formerly secretary for Ireland, 'and received from
that noble individual such au infliction as recalled to one's re
collection. the lines in ancient fable—
_

" Clarn:inti cutis est'summos derepta per artus,
" Neequicquam nisi vulnus erat ?"
Who is it, again, that has denominated this imperial parliament,
t both by word of month and in writings, a foreign parliament—
r has called this house an Assembly of foreigners, and .aptdied the
same term to the protestant sof Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) Who
is it, that in reference to this very parliament, has made use of
the term alien?' He who is now my accuser.
,(Hear, hear.)
- This is my defence, if defence be necessary. ( Hear, hear.)
• Who is it, but another of my accusers, that, speaking of Ire-
land, described the Irish and the English to be divided against
each other, with enmity even stronger than that felt by the
Welch mountaineers for their Saxon invaders? Who told us
that this enmity was not the consequence of a difference of re-
ligion, but was hereditary-7-that it existed when the two parties
were of the same religion? One of my accusers. (Hear,
hear.) So mnch,'then, as to the description of the two parties
into which, Ireland is divided. And now as to the use. of the
term "invaders." Who is it that called the English. invaders
of Ireland; that dated the misery and degradation of that
country from the fit st day when the English banner was plant-
ed on its soil? Who is it that called the " union" an atroci-
ous and most abominable measure ; that pledged himself over
and over again to repeal that " union," though every man
knows, and no one better than the indiYidual I refer to, that
the repeal of the union is in fact the entire and total separa-
tion of the two countries ? Who is it that told Ireland that it
should N.ot be a petty and paltry province, but a free and inde-
pendent nation, and that the Saxoni should be taught that
lesson? My accuser. 'misery for repeal was now dropped, his
exertions suspended; but on what terms. and conditions ?
Mark ! " Justice to Ireland,"And 'what description has that
individual, within a very Small space of time, given ofthe mean-
ing he attaches to, the words. "Justice to Ireland ?" It is this,'
ma lords=the complete and entire government of that country
by Roman Catholics, the extinction of tithe in any shape or
'form,. the introrluction'or the voluntary system, and the entire
demolition, of the protestant establishment in Ireland. These
are . :ternis—the terms on which alone 'is content

to lay aside 'his exertions at present,
. or the repeal of
the union., and.. thej.,sparAttan at ..Ireland. (Cheers.) His
lordship next aerended the alterations made by that house
in the bill. The obje,Cts,of the bill: as originally sent from the
commons, were to abolish corporations in. Ireland, to create

. •

others in their place, and to Vest -in the crown the disposal of
every office connected with the administration of justice. It
wasasseited-tfiift their lordships hail -returned to the ceinunons
another and a different hill. Was that true ? Surely not ; for
out oft. hesethree.ohjeets- they had consented to .carry into ef-
fect the'fiiit an I the list; and had only provided a substitute for
the second.' It was alSo made a subject of grievous- complaint
that their lordships had altered the title of the bill; but if they
consulted their journals they would find that this was not an
unusual practice. In the case of Grampound, the commons.
passed a hill disfranchising that borough, and transferred its
two members to Leeds. The lords agreed to the first object of
that bill, but substituted for the second. the. addition of two
knights of the shire for Yorkshire. This change rendered it
necessary to alter the preamble of the bill, which was accJrd-
ingly altered. When the bill was sent back 'to'the commons it
was objected that it could not be received,-because it had not'
. . • ....

I ..„.
ieen amended, but made an original bill.. A noble lord, how-
'ever, combated that Objection, and the bill as amended was re-
ceived: Who was that noble lord !—Why, the noble lord who
now led the nainister;al party in the Hoose of Commons. The
learned lord; after adverting to the amendments of the com-
mons, concluded thus :—I have now only to say a few words on
the other part of the bill, giving new corporations to 12 towns
in Ireland. This subject has been so often considered, that it
would be unpardonable in me again to discuss it. , t am satis-
fied that if your lordships should adopt this part of the measure,
it would be productive of the greatest possible evils. The ori-
ginalpreinible of the bill states the object aimed at to be, good
and quiet government. Do you believe that by adopting the
provisions of this bill, the towns affected by it would be well and
quietly governed ? Would the introduction of annual elections,
carried on as elections are in Ireland, tend to order and good
government, or to tumult, strife distraction, and party and re-
ligious animosity ? (Hear.) What would be the constitution
of these cOrporations? I repealthe argument which in the be-
ginning of the diSeusSionS on this subject„ I urged, and with

which I will conclude them—that it would be absiirdiafter get-
ting rid of the present corporations, because they are nuisances,
are partyinstitutions, to establish in their
.place party institu7
tions of ritiature.infinitelY, more objectionable and mischievous.
(Hear, hear.) This is my
.great ground of objection to the
present measure.. To what purpose would the new corporations
be applied? Do not the people who govern Ireland-bay that
every measure must be earned by agitation ;
.and when a diffi-
culty is felt in effecting any object, do they not exclaim " Agi-
tate ! agitate! agitate?" If, then, their party should get pus-
session Of the government of these large
,towns,.would they. not
be. converted into the most destructive engine* of agitation, and
most pernicious as far as the protestant, interest is • concerned?
(Hear, lea'r.) But is not this the object of the bill ? Does
not the measure speak for itself? . Let your lordships look to
its-provisions. Why did the noble viscount create Dow corpo-
rations by this bill ? Solely for the purpose, es he has-said, of
creating them. At present the corporations, have nothing to
do except to administer justice. The new corporations would
he deprived of all power in !hat respect. The business Of watch-
ing,. paying, arol 'lighting, forms no part of the duties of the ex-
isting torporations ; that it is all performed by trustees under
local acts of parliament, and is well and effectively performed.
What, then, remains' fOr the new corporations to do ?—abso,
lutely nothing, as the noble viscount has stated himself; but in
Order to give their' something to do, it is proposed to abolish the
local trusts, and to make the corporators the trustees. (Hear.)
Is it not evident, when those behind the noble viscount, who
push and goad him forward, making him come down to your
lordships' house and utter such extravagant speeches as the one
he has delivered this night--is it not evident that their design is
to have these-corporations as places of deposit for the purposeof
agitation, -whenever agitation may be necessary to gain any
particular object ? (Hear.) If 1 were one of those disposed to
say that tithes should be extinguished, that they should not be
paid in any shape, that the voluntary system should be established,
that the Protestant religion should be annihilated, and that; -as
the last step, the "union" should be repealed, as the consequence
and climax of those measures, I would assent to the bill as it
has come up from the other house • I would do -more—l would
say, let the whole thing be accomplished at once; let us not go
step by step. If you pass this measure, will you then ship ?; It.
will be impossible for you to do so. (Hear.) -Does - not every
concession you make add power to one party, and render it more
difficult to resist the next demand ? ( Hear, hear.) It is be-
cause I-foresee that at no distant period this measure would lead
to the Consequences I have stated, because those consequences;
are in my mind deplorable, destructive to the interest, indepen-
denne; and integrity of the empire, that. I. oppose the noble
viscount in this step which he proposes to take. (Cheers.) I
Will not take this first step,—a step. of of peace and conciliation,
which will make everything afterwards quiet. but advance .the
accomplishment of any design that may be entertained for the
subversion of the Protestant 'religion,. (Cheers.). 1 have con-
sidered them with calmness, with caution, and to the,best of
my ability. I entertain, as I said when I,set out, the greatest
possible respect for the other house of
.parliament—anything
connected with or belonging to myself I would at once surrender
to them; but, my lords, I am here one at least of the guardians.
of the interests of the empire (hear, hear,) and Lfeel that it is'
a duty‘l owe to my country, whatsoever may be the consequences,
and satisfied that the consequences of .the measure now pro
pounded-will be such as I have pointed out, to oppose the motion
of the noble viscount opposite. (Loud cheer's.)
The Marquis of Clanricarde and Viscount Falkland supported
the motion. The -Earls of Ripon and Winchelsea spoke in
favour of the amendment.

Earl GREY addressed the house at some length. He was
opposed to' the destruction of corporations, and suggested cer-
tain modification's which he thought would remove the evils
apprehended from a preponderance of the catholic party in the
new boroughs. He was of opinion that the house should yield
nothing to threats and intimidation. His lordship said, if he
thought that it was the intention to force:from their lordships,
by threats and intimidation, anything that it would. be
such to concede, he should be the first man to oppose a
resistance as it might be in his power to make. He was anxious
for the honour of their lordships' house—he was anxious 'to
maintain that just influence which could only be derived from
the general respect of the people, by their lordships' exercising
for the people's benefit those high privileges which were not
granted as a distinction to themselves, but as the means of so
acting. lf, therefore, any attack was made upon their lordships'
honour, or upon their deliberate power, he should be one of the
first to resist it; for he adhered to that sentiment which had
been often quoted, sometimes for praise and sometimes for cen-
sure—viz., that he felt bound to support the order to which he
belonged against any unjust attack that might be made. upon
it. It was unnecessary to say that he should resist any
attempt to force upon the house any measure of which their
lordships disapproved—any measure which would not be a re-
form of the house, but a destruction of the house and the
monarchy, and, if all experience were not false, of the freedom
of the people themselves. To any reform of that kind he should
be happy to serve in the ranks which oppose the most deter-
mined resistance.

The other speakers were Lord Ellenborough, Lord Holland,
the Duke of Wellington, the Duke of Richmond, Lord Wharn-
cliffe, and Viscount Melbourne in reply. When their lordships
divided on the original motion there appeared—
Present. Proxies.
75 48
142 78

Content
Not content

Total.
123
220

Majority against the motion 97
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved the appointment of a committee
to draw up the reasons why their lordships differed from the
amendments of the Commons. The committee was appointed;
and ordered to meet on the following day at 4 o'clock.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH expressed a hope that those reasons
would be drawn up by Wednesday, and submitted to the House
Of Commons' with the least possible delay.—Adjourned.