The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-02-05 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARb.

competent person, the baths should be let at a fixed rent upon
proper terms as to maintenance and repairs.
The Beadle receives £1 ss. 6d. per week; and the Beilman
£l5 per annum, besides what he may make by his bell.
"PUBLIC MARKETS.—Your committee do not at present re.
commend any alterations in, their, management, but they con-
sider that under a system of contracts, or by changing some of
theless efficient for more efficient labourers, some reduction in
the expenditure may be effected.
"SQUARES AND GA R DENS. —Your committee also find the
keeping of the Mount Garden, Abercrombie, Great George,
and Falkner-squares, &c. cost £8 per week in wages, and there
being no superintendence, would suggest that the keeping of
those gardens and squares in order, should, if possible, be done
by contract.
"POLICE.—Your committee leave the inquiry into the duties
of the superintendant of police, constables, and also of the'
keeper of Bridewell to the watch committee, being aware that
the duties of those officers are under the consideration of that
committee.
" BonouGu Gaol.—The salary paid to the governor of the
Borough Gaol is £350 per annum. There are also four turn-
key,.s and one watchman, all of whom appear to be fully re-
quired for that establishment.
"SCHOOLS.--Your committee did not inquire into the duties
of the schoolmasters, considering such inquiry would more pro-
perly belong to the committee on schools.
" CLERGY.—Your committee considering that an inquiry
into the duties, salaries, and emoluments derived under the
church establishment is not within the intended scope of their
instructions, have no report to make thereon.
" Co SCLUS lON.—The committee, in conclusion, think it their
duty to express their opinion, that a considerable annual saving
may, with propriety, be effected by reducing the salaries of
some of' the servants of the corporation to limits proportional
to the labours and responsibility of their several duties. The
comm ttee do not, however, consider it expedient. under exist-
ing circumstances, nor within their province to
.go into detail
upon this subject; but they submit, that a committee should be
appointed with power to consider and report upon all proper
reductions—receive Communications from parties who may be
affected; and report upon such arrangenients as the committee
may recommend.
(Signed)
NivEerSe'thCehianisrintruacntio'n
Mr. Councillor EARLS"ijnOquHirNed 11:haLtit:
of that committee in the first instance ?
The TOWN-CLERK.—FeII powers to inquire into the duties of
all paid officers, with the exception of the Town-clerk and He.
corder. '
Mr. Councillor EAnt.E.—Then no inquiry into the fitness of
the officers. In the watch committee we have done that.—Here
is aiiian employed to look after buildings of houses. There are,
two houses erected in Hope-street, near the Institution, and
two more blackguard buildings never were erected.
The MAYOR —That officer is appointed by act of parliament
by the magistrates.
"Mr. Councillor EARLE believed he was a corporate officer;
but he did not wish to enumerote, there were many such cases.
If he had been on that coinmitsee he should have made his re-
port accordingly.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—If Mr. Earle observed the conclu-
sion of that report, there was more in it, perhaps, than at first
met the car.

The.TOWN-CLERK being requested, again read the conclusion
of the report.
Mr. Councillor SHIEL would wish to suggest that the. same
committee be re-appointed with power to continue their in-
quiries, and to urge such inquiries as they might think desirable
into the different offices held under the .corporation. And that
they should also extend their inquiries with a view of -making a
very material reduction in the town-hall establiShment. He
ffiund on looking over the accounts for 1831, which be really
could not understand, that the treasurer had not yet found it
convenient to furnish them with an abstract of the last year's
account for the establishment; he could not tell why, for he
could not think they were so complicated. In 1831 the account
of the expenses for entertainments given in the Town :hall, in-
cluding wine and the mayor's carriage, amounted to £3,200, or
thereabouts. He thought that that was contrary to law as the
case now stood. But whether it were or not, it was clearly con-
trary to good economy. In one item there had been a consi-
derable increase in the expenditure. At one time three horses
were thought sufficient for the mayor's carriages; but in conse-
quence, he supposed, of the increased proportions of the mayor,
the last year tour horses had been thought necessary. (A
laugh.) He should hope that in future three horses would he
found sufficient. He would therefore suggest in addition, with
a view to making all possible reduction in the public expendi-
ture, that full inquiries should be made into every thing re-
lating to that expenditure.
Mr. Councillor AMIN then moved " that the committee
should be re-appointed, with full power and riartieular instruc-
tions to inquire into all the offices, and into the fitness of the
officers, having a view to economy in every department, and
with full power to examine witnesses."
Mr. SHIM: said he would take that opportunity of stating
that he had been suspected of having made communications, in
his character of councillor. to the newspapers of the town. He
would there state that he.bad never made any communication
whatever,.with regard to the proceedings of that council, to any
newspaper; and as long as he was connected with that council.
he hevenshould. He had heard this report frequently in the
town.
The MAYOR:never heard anything of_ the kind; .and it ap-
peared to hint that as long as they had six or seven gentlemen
there taking dOwn their procaedings it was not necessary for
'them to take that trouble.

Aikin's motion, being seconded, was then- put and
carried.

11:A1K IN then moved that Mr. Earle Should be added to the
emusnittee, which was carried unanimously.

IMPROVEMENT COMMITTEE.

The TOWN-CLERK proceeded to read the report of the im-
provement committee, as passed on the 230 of 'January, 1836, is
which it was resolVed, after some matters-of form, that an ap-
plication of Mr. Birkett to know their determination relative to
some improvements in Water-street should' betaken into consi-
deration. , Mr. Birkett had some property in. Water-street,
the Boar's. Head, and, before making any alterations and im-
provements in it, he wished to know whether the improvement
the-old council.
committee intended pulling down the sale'of Water-strect„on
•-.._
which it—vas, as was talked of. -------
Which those
by
yiade in that.
Mr. Councillor EAR LE said this was a very
the manner in which affairs were mana!,ed by
good specimen-of
.1-tead was, and it
The Boar's Head was a, purchase which had guile through the
streethads theyor tw9 wouldpl parties
have tod int. improvementsdiiii hot 4- Xe'rse,
me arrangements
the council would
ip,luithieessldoeulodfctilelearsst;etneet £olll;w2t'ill'htehiemperonretenents must be made
brdectriitesabbos:ildutbeelyniLe,clees.saip•ve,..thb:trs„
~i thereforet
i 1,.,
g a
refer this-to the committee,- with • '
pot I, ( to make the best arraii,-,
-r,
ments they could with the owner of it.
• 'MI'. Alderman BitowN was afraid this dismission would lead
to their htivinp.: to pay an exorbitant price for the imprbvments
which would have to be made in that street. -.: •
IA was then orderetithat tie committee have full power to ne-
gociate with Mr. Birkett.
Some improvements in Pool-lane were then brought forward
for the sanction of the council, which were referred to the im-
provement committee. - '
. .
Livgaroor. DOCK ESTATE. • • -
. , . . .
' •
The TowN-ctEnE then proceeded to lead the reportof the
dock estate committee. , . .
"LIVERPOOL DOCK ESTATE.

The committee appointed on the tith January, 1836, to in-
quire into the relative position of the town council and the dock
trust, particularly with reference to the bill now proposed to be
introduced into parliament, and to report thereon, and upon all
necessary proceedings, have considered. the matters referred to
them, and do agree upon the following

" REPORT,

"The corporation of .Liverpool have, at different periods
made tree grants of the town property to a large extent for the
use of the docks. The first of these grants was made in 1709,
for the formation of the first (the old) dock, described as being
'parcel of the waste of and' belongi,ng, to the said borough and
corporation, lying in or near a certain place called the pool, on
the south side of the said town of Liverpool, which shall for ever
be and remain to the use, intent, and purpose befkire mentioned,
and to no other use, intent, or purpose whatsoever.'
"In the same manner was granted the ground whereon have
been made the Canning Dock, George's Dock and Basin, Salt-
house Dock, and a considerable nertion of that which forms the
King's and Queen's Docks. Thus the principal part of the
space now occupied by the docks.was the property of the town
given to the deck estate.
anda
an(iinterests
ands
"All the ground to the westward of the decks was the pro-
perty of the town, freely given by the
Alieks,
el all the sidesrest
of
ductsoiesttoa
tt
he .e Aflthe
ground to the westwardof .the
corpora-
tion;
brinks
and
dt
in
manynecessary o
tfhoorr
respects.O ,ptirt
hoe
propertyes, belong
the town and dock estates are so intimately'combined, that it
would be dangerons, if not impracticable, to separate the two
trusts. The mayor, aldermen, and common council have, from
the first, been the trustees of the docks.
"Formerly. they appointed the whole committee of manage-
ment, consisting of 21, from their own body, to which great ob-
jection was made by the dock rate-payers, on the ground that
the common council were 'self-elected and for life,' and that
it was inconsistent with the principles of good goveintnent that
the expenditure of a revenue collected from the public should
rest with trustees, who acknowledged no responsibility to that
public. By the 72d section of the municipal act, the council
ere trustees for executing the powers of acts of parliament, of
'which the members of the body corporate were, in their corpo-
rate capacity, trustees prior to the 26th December last.
" It is only by a provision inserted to the 7lth section, obvi-
ously with a view to give time for a legislative enactment in the
present session between the two great estates, that these gene-
ral powers are in the case of the Liverpool docks suspended
until the first day of November next. Availing themselves of
this brief period; the trustees, who, when they were in office for
life and self-elected, by every means in their power resisted all
modification, now give notice of an aftpliCatten to parliament
for an act to transfer the trust from the council of the town alto-
gether, and, as it would seem; because that council is no longer
self•elected and irresponsibile, to exclude it from all participa-
tion in the appointment of the committee of management. 1 he•
town council being now the representative of all interests of,the
town and borough, including the dock tate-payers, the objec,
tions hitherto used are inapplicable; and Your committee are
confident that a large majority of the dock rate-payers would
be satisfied not only that the council should remain the trustees
of the docks, but that they should also have the sole appointment
of the committee of management. Your conimitttee, however,
deeming it desirrble that so important an interest as that of the
rate-payers should be particularly as well as generally repre-
sented, recommend that, while the future trusteeship should
remain in the council, their power to revise and annul the acts
of the dock committee should be repealed, and the number now
admitted into_the council of management upon the election of
the rate-payers should be extended. Your committee are de-
cidedly of opinion that the proposal now made for the first time
to separate the two estates entirely, if allowed to become law,
would lead to collision, and to consequences dangerous alike to
the interests of both. And, as your committee are given to
understand that it is highly probable that bills for the applica-
tion of the municipal act to particular cases in boroughs will be
allowed to be brought into parliament, though there may not
have been time for the usual notice, they recommend that
. power should be given by the council to a committee to take all
necessary proceedings.for bringing the case of the dock estate
before the legislature either upon the biil for which notice has
been given, or'by means of a 'bill to be submitted on the part of
the council of Liverpool. That the committee so to be ap•
pointed should be instructed to have in view all such alterations
in the constitution of the dock trust and management as are
suggested in this report, so far as the same maybe approved by
the council; and that the attention of such committee should be
expressly drawn to the subject of the dock police, which, in the
. •
opinion of your committee, ought to be combined with the gene-
ral police of the town, and to the .revision, amendment, and
consolidation of the dock acts, together with all necessary pro-
visions for the better administration of justice in respect to the
laws relating to the dock estate, as the same may be amended
by parliament.
" Your committee abstain front referring to many other points
connected with the dock estate, because they will necessarily
form part of the business of the committee to arrange the bill.
To show the great and growing importance of the subject, your
committee need only to state, that in the first year after the
dock rates were levied on goods, as well as vessels, they
amounted—

In 1812 to. £ 44,40.3 7 11
In 10 years afterwards (1832) t 0... 102,403 17 4
In 10 -years more (1832) to ... 170,047 6 11
And at the end of the last year to.. 217,575 9 8
The debt of the dock estate being £1;400,003.
(Signed) " JAMES AIKIN, Chairman."

Mr. Councillor JOHN HOLMES begged to move that ." the re-
port be adopted, and the committee appointed with full powers
to carry into effect their report, subject to the approbation df
the council."
Mr. Councillor EARLE wished to know if the council had not
the power of deputing its authority to others, so that they might
.not at all times have to come before the council ?

The MAYOR.—The proceedings of that committee, as well as
of all others, would be subject to the revision of that council.
Mr. Councillor Jour; HoLmus.—Supposing they had to op-
pose that bill, they would have full power to make that opposition?
The MAYOR believed the acts of this committee must be sub-
ject to the approval of the council the same as the other
committees. There was no occasion to differ from that course
in that case. If it was necessary, the council should be imme-
diately summoned to depute their authority to them.
Mr. Councillor AlKlN.—Circumstances might occurr in which
it would be desirable for them to keep their own council, and,
if they were to publish their object, they might give their oppo-
nents a dangerous power. He should like to know whether
they would have power to go to parliament for a bill founded
on the bill which was now to be read.

• The TOWN-CLERK.—As suggested by the reports, there was
reason to believe that bills would be received by parliament
without the' regular notices in some cases. In this case the
legislature evidently meant to reserve the business of the dock
estate for the present session in continuing only for a short pe-
riod the powers of the present committee. From information
he had received, there was reason to believe that the sessional
notices would be dispensed with for the present.
Mr. Councillor AIKIN.—His question was, whether the com-
mittee would have power to go to parliament without reporting
to the council ?
.fir. Councillor H. LawrtENcr. hoped an arrangement might
be made with the dock estate committee
Mr. Councillor Houtinv said he had p*posed that a meeting
should be held in order, if possible, to agree on some bill which
would be agreeable to both parties, and the answer was, if any
such conference should be desired on the part of the council, it
would not he objected to. •
The Mayon said it would be a thousand pities if a desirable
object should be lost on a point of etiquette. ' Ile hoped that
the committee would do what was necessary.
Mr. Councillor AIKIN said they were willing to concede all
that the fernier council was asked. It was ratherextraordinary,
that those individuals should give notice of bringing forward a
bill in parliament to take away all their interference, while a
little while ago they had insisted on so large a majority in the
committee. One of the clauses of that bill had the modesty and
condescension to say, that nothing in that council should ex-
chide that council from being members of that committee. _

. Mr. Councillor HOPE would move "that they now resolved
to petition his majesty's government to bring in a bill as a
government measure, founded on the recommendation of a
committee now appointed." He would then recommend that
they- gave full powers to-the committee to act. I-le thought
there would be noxlittictilty in getting his majesty's ministers
to bring forward suclya hill, and that very likely the dock com-
mittee might withdraw their hill.
Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE.—They must substitute
some other lull in that case. _ _ _

Councillor -RATHIMNR thought they had better keep
their Own business in their ()WIT hands. The best way would be
for the council to recommend their committee to proceed forth-
wit h.

, The AlAron.-1-le was now going to put the question, "that
the report of the dock committee just read be adopted and ap-
proved, and that the committee he-reappointed, with full powers
to take such steps as the necessity of the case may require."
Mr. Councillor AuctN.—Befove this subject be done away
with, it .was absolutely necessary that they should have powers
to proceed with a hilt if they saw it necessary.
The resolution was then agreed to.
A memorial was presented from a person named Isaac Shep-
herd, who had formerly been employed in the public gardens,
hpt who, having come under the displeasure of the late mayor,
had been. dismissed, praying. to be reappointed.
Mr. Councillor Lawricricu. should like to have an
opportunity of •proving, when the subject came tinder conside-
ration, that the man, from drunkenness and ►misconduct, was
unfit for the situation. _ .

After some discussion, it was referred to the committee on
paid officers.
- A memorial signed by the conductors 'of the different insu-
rance dilices, calling upon the council to adopt measures for
the better security of property agaittst fires was then read. The
memorial expressed a wish that the expenses of extinguishing
fires should fail upon the parties benefitted‘ by the exertions of
the firemen, and stated
.that the premiums of insurance were
too low to meet the demands upon them in Liverpool, in case
of an extensive fire among. 4. the warehouses.
Mr. Councillor EARLE thought, after the report of the effici-
ciency of the lire police which had been read, that the gentle-
men of the assurance companies had a great deal of assurance
in making such a request.
osti'gonpendi
that
tai
etniiit,,xivaaisatsetahrecedlil.l
apnosesei bolte2ftiz
thel persons
miles, to know anything of a report which had just been read.
At all events, he hoped the council would enable hit to reply
to the parties. .
Mr. Councillor RATIIISONF. thought the persons benefitted
-were the insurance companies who had received premiums • for
fires were put out for their. benefit, and not for the benefit of
those who had already been taxed that they might be insured.
He thotight there was a great deal of assurance in that request.
Mr‘ Councillor Joins Hoot E.s, in-reference to the lire police,
said that of. fi7 Sires which had taken place within the last eight
months, there had not been.E3ooo worth of property destroyed.
The MAYOR said he had done no more than his duty in pre-
sewing that memorial; they were bound to return some answer,
and he took the liberty to suggest that it should be. referred to
the watch committee, who would instruct him to give some
answer. •
•
A memorial was presented from the committee of a school in
Mount-Pleasant, praying for the use of a private door, that the
ladies and teachers attending the,scheol might not have to go
through-ti dirty narrow lane.—Granted.
A Memorial, Signed by 1331-individuals, merchants, and
others, against. any interference with the intended removal of
the Postoffiee to the New Custom-house, was then read„,by the
town-clerk. The memorial was stated to have arisen in cunse-
' quence of remarks made in the council, that it would be advisa-
ble for it to remain in its present central position, and stated
such an interference with the property of individuals rho had
bought on the belief and understanding that the Postoffice was
to he removed to the New Custom-house, as a hardship. Public
bodies ought not to lie slightly interfered with.
The Maxon said the remark which had bests made about the
Postoffice in a previous council ought not to be considered as a
motion. He thought they must refer it to the custom-house
commit tee.
Mr. Councillor EARIX thought parties had cried out before
they were hurt.
Mr. Councillor SDARPLES said it might. allay public excite-
ment to state, as one of the Custom-house
.Cocamittee, that the
majority of that committee were of opinion that the Post-office
should remain where it was intended to be.
A letter written by order of Lord John Russell, confirming
the •magistracy recommended by the council,•and Apixnuting
five additional magistrates, namely, Adam Hodgson, Esq., Peter
Heyweod, Esq., Henry Moss, Esq., William Ripley, Esq., and
Christopher. liullin, Esq., was read,
The M Avon said, in the course of the last week it hail been
necessary to make application to the Treasury. for „the £25.000
doe. by the• government for the Custom-house; .the usual for
finalities in the application not having been thought sufficient,
it had been refused, the'ehief clerk not thinking himself autho-
rised to pay it.without. the written authority of the mayor and
corporation, signed by them and sealed with the corporation
seal. lie had brought it before the couneil to.request their au-
thority so to do.—Granted.
• . tuuricit ENDOWMENT. _

Mr. Councillor BOLTON, in pursstaiteeef a notice ofa Motion
at the last meeting, rose to propose his resolution on the subject
of the endowment of the clergy. They were well aware that
early in the last session of parliament, an application was
made, and ri hill had been introduced respecting the day police
and clergy of Liverpool, and which met with very decided op-
position, and arrangements had been made again to bring for-
ward that measure.. That bill did not come to the second read-
ing till the 22d of May; previously to which a petition had
been presented against its adoption, signed by upwards of
ten thousand persons. That bill was carried by a majority on
the second reading of ISS votes for, to 171 against, a very un-
usual division on a private bill. Bet if his friend Mr. Harvey
had been iu London at the time, the result might have been dif-
ferent. Preparations were then made for. taking the bill into
committee, and early on the sth of June the municipal corpo-
ration bill was brought in; but as that bill contained a provi-
sion for the maintenance of police, the town-clerk, who had the
caednetioe: of the bill, thought right to withdraw it. In the
month of July Lord Sandon gave notice of a motion for making
a further provision for the clergy of the town. The amount of
which provision was to be £4,000 per annum, to be obtained
from the corporate funds. That bill was never inteaduced;
several members of the House of Cmummis were opposed to its
introduction, and became exceedingly angry at it, and joined
in a round robin, requesting ass interview with Lord John
Russell on the subject. They were referred by hint to Lord
Melbourne, and its consequence nothing snore was heard of the
bill. It was therefore taken for granted that no further pro-
ceedings were intended about the bill. But on the return of the
municipal bill from the Lords, an attempt was made to introduce
clauses into it having the same object in view. These clauses
were not, permitted to be entertained. Soon after the parlia-
ment was prorogued, and very much to the surprise of the town,
it was reported that the common council were doing that which
was never before attempted without an act of parliament, for an
endowment for some of the churches. No idea was ever enter-
tained before for such provision for the churches othei wise
than by an act of parliament; for reasons suiting their own
views, which they did not think proper to disclose, this mea-
sure had now beets brought forward. Sometime at the end
.of October an opinion was entertained that the council were
really in earnest to make a provision by their own authority.
About the beginning of November inure particulars transpired;
and in consequence of that an application was made to the
court for the purpose of obtaining an injunction to prevent this,
which was granted; and a fortnight afterwards, at the hearing,
it was determined by the Master of the Rolls—without entering
into the law of the case, he simply determined—that it might lie
inj nrirais to the parties for whom it was obtained if it remained,
and, if it was removed, it would be only delayed. The amount,
as he had already stated, of this further provision was £4.000
a year, the particulars of which he had announced to the public.
Mi.. Bolton• then stated the various amounts of different sales
which had been effected by the corporation bo. Making up the
principle to leave £4,000 a year. This £4,000 a year was to be
for the lives of the present incumbents. In the provision which
had been made there were reductions to be made on the decease
of the,present incumbents, which would reduce the provision
to £3,665 per annum. These were not the only provisions for
the clergy.' In addition, there were provisions for the ministers
of St. Luke's, St. Martin's, St. Michael's, and other churches,
amounting to £5OO. There was an appointment for the gaol,
the workhouse, and the cemetery; and St. George's Church
and St. Thomas's Church were endowed also, in addition to
what had been expended in the repairs of the churches, making
for thelast five veers a sum of about £4,000 a year. Making the
total amount of 'funds-taken from the corporation, if the expenses
of repairine• were continued as they had been, of about £10,600
a year. 'Pilot was the historical part of the motion he had now
to submit. Perhaps, in this state of it, it might be useful to
direct their attention to the report of the application, which had
been published; and he should first call their attention to page
91 in the report. Mr. Bolton then referred to page 96, 101,105,
and II() in the report, reading extracts of what Mr. Bickersteth
and others had said on the subject, the gist of which was, thdt
the council had no power to take such a proceeding without an
act of parliament; that they had no right to appropriate sums
derived front the parish rates, as in effect these sums weir,
for such a purpose; that such endowment had been made
in the fear that the future council would, make no provi-
sion for the established clergy which they thought right
to do, and therefore they would bind future councils hand and
foot so that they could not help themselves. lie had quoted
these passages to show that the late council had no authority to
do what they had done. -He thought it necessary, in order that
they might be put in possession of an ideaof the illegality of the

en inwments In the course of these argurhents it was frequently
stated that the endowment of the clergy was a praisewortnv act.
There could he no dOubt but that if a catholic endowed a catholic
church it was a praiseworthy act; it was a praiseworthy act for
a dissenter to endow a dissenting church; -and if a churchman
endowed a church of his own.it was a laudable act. But if dis-
senters, churchman, and catholics were putin one rate, and had
a common purse, it was not a laudable aetfor one religious body
to be endowed by the contributions of all other religious bodies.
(Hear.) With regard to whatever legal receipts—whatever pri-
vileges the established church had in this town, in the continu-
ance of repairs of churches and in endowments for which the
community were bound, he had no desire to interfere in the
least. And with respect to the provision that was sought to be
made for the clergy, to the extent of their emoluments which
they have been accustomed to receive, he was not opposed ; he
was,perfectly willing that they should receive them during their
lives; and while they performed their duties every shilling of
their emoluments ought to be paid to them, though quite aware
that that was not legal. In granting this he acted liberally to
the clergy. But as no power existed under the municipal bill
to endow churches,and as he conceived their predecessors ought
not to have done mat which they were tied from doing, he was
opposed to the endowment they sought to make by the sales
which had been mentioned to them. For he would maintain
and fearlessly agsert that the previous council had no right to
Make provisions further than what the act of parliaMent had
given—a provision for the lives of the present incumbents and
clergy of the establishment. Persons who went there and wor-
shipped had no other advantage over dissenters. They were all
on a perfect equality of rights , and as he should not think it
right for a catholic to be supported by a protestant, he should
think it wrong for the protestants to provide for their religious
instruction out of the funds of the common purse. From the
report which he had been reading it would appear that
£105,000, on the sth day of December last, was paid to Sir
Thomas Brancker and Mr. Lawrence, as treasurers. £50,001)
was obtained on the sale of a tobacco warehouse, and other sums
were obtained, leaving a deficiency to be taken out-of the cor-
poration pnrSe of £41;600, He believed this such made up the
£105,000, Which sum was pow in the hands of the Graiid Junc-
tion Railway Company, until it was known whether this en-
dowment was to be confirmed or not. With regard to the pro.
priety of endowing churches at all, was a question on whic,h he
had very serious doubts, for he thought that giving clergymen
a stipend without responsibility had the effect of rendering them
less likely to discharge their duties than they would be if any
control was had over their cotaduct. As the clergy had been
hitherto circumstanced they 144 often to stand by the good opi•
nion of their parishiondes in tlie performance -of their ty;
tkey had also had their ell'irricteil and their reputatiops*ita
olject to stand good wit] tie corporation for the time being.
But now these wholesome restrictions ware removed. With re-
gard to the amount of the stipends given to the clergy he had no
hesitation in saying. with the exception of the rectors who were
very well paid, that the rest of the clergy were under paid, and
received less than dissenters. And in as much as churchmen
are wealthy, and are, also numerous, he wished they would like-
wise be independent, and not come with their begging boxes
for the support of other denominations of Christians., (Cries
of " Hear.") He, believed that religion would always beat
flourish while unprotected. Whether religion or growing of
sugar, it seemed to him that everything that was protected went
to decay. (Hear.) He thought the clergy wound have acted
wisely to have thrown themselves on the generosity of the pub-
lic. They would have met with kindness and liberality. Much
had been said of the promise of support which had been given
by his Majesty's ministers to this scheme of endowment. He
questioned the fact that such promise had been given to the ex-
tent which had
,previously been stated in that council-room.
Having taken sonic interest in the matter he had-addresed 'a
letter to a member of his Majesty's government on the subject.
That member's answer, wherein he had mentioned what was
going forward—he had an audience with him in the month
of June last in Downing-street—that answer was as follows:
" When I recollect that I Oil the pleasure of seeing you
in Down inwstreet, I informed you as I bad previously
acquainted Lord Sandon, that in my opining the Liver-
pool clergy had an equitable right for their lives to the
stipends they have long been accustomed to receive: At their
decease, it will be to be determined what shall be the future pro-
visions of the ministers." The mayor would be aware that this
letter went on further than,a promise to continue to the clergy
what they had received for their lives. Froth that letter lie was
gratified to learn that those promises of support extended no
further than for a provision fur the lives of those 'gentlemen.
And if that provision had been intended to go no farther, he
would not have taken the trouble of journeying to London to
oppose the endowment. There was no-material difference be-
tween the opinion of the party from whom he bad received that
answer and the heads of the government. He thought the
clergy had pursued a very improper course in, the whole of those
proceedings ; he did not know whether the part which they had
acted, and had beets acting in. had been approved of by their
brethren, but he did think if they persevered in carrying for-
ward this endowment they might finathemselves in the situation
of Shvlock claiming a pound of flesh, and meet with Shylock's
reward.- He should conclude with moving " that an instruction
he given to the town-clerk to take prompt and efficient mea-
sures, under the direction of a committee of the council, for set-
ting aside the late endowment fur the parochial and other clergy
of this borough, by a mortgage on the rents and profits of cers
tain property therein."
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN, in rising to second the motion,
said iNir. Bolton, in bringing forward this resolution, had so
fully entered into the subject as well as the principle of the en-
dowment that it would not be necessary in him io detain the
council at any length. 'With regard to the endowment it had
proceeded in time assumption that the clergy of the establish-
ment were entitled to receive compensation for their services
out of the public funds; it seemed to be a principle in-
volved in the whole of this proceeding. That Ike. funds of that
corporation were, in the strictest sense of the term, public funds,
needed no arguments to prove; and on what ground it was that
one sect of christians had a claim to be portioned out of that
fund he could not understand. With Mr. Bolton, he conceived
that religion flourished best if those who approved of it were left
to their own choice to support it. He hoped that the wealthy
and influential churchmen of Liverpool would relinquish the
claim they were now making on the funds of that council; that
they would respect themselves by supporting their own clergy
and their own institutions, as other denominations.achristians
were in the habit of doing. He conceived such a course would
most effeetnally, .promote religion,, and all tfie biekearngs they
had heard would be entirely
.prevented. (Cries of " Hear.")
It would not be urged for a single moment that the claims of
time clergy in the established church on the public funds, result-
ed lions the inability of time menihers of the protestant church
to support their own institutions. 'ale was quite unwilling to
stippose Or a single moment that that claim resulted truism an
unwillingness on the part of the members of that coannunity to
contribute in a direct way to the support of the clergy: He
believed, in support of this, it was urged that it was. necessary
to the respectability and independence of the clergy that they
should be independent of the .people to whom they ministered.
The principle, he conceived was oue which laid at the root of
every such mischief and evil. He considered that theitrue in-
dependence of the clergy resulted in the approbation and sup-
port of those over whom they ministered, and not in a mere inde-
pendence of others in pecuniary matters. And he would con-
tend that no support to the ministers of religion was so honour-
able as a support which resulted from the free-will offerings of
people attached to their ministry. (Hear.) But if indepen-
dence of the clergy were desirable, surely there were other
means of attaining, the object than by quartering them on. the
public funds. They had heard a great deal about the laudable-
ness of corporate officers and other persons' worthy exertions to
endow the clergy. Now it was very praiseworthy ter persons to
conic forward and sacrifice their own properly. ( Hear.) Such
a proceeding would be very honourable, and if the very afflusnt
persons of Liverpool, connected with the church, had come for-
ward among themselves and subscribed the £105,000, and se-
cured it to the clergy at their own proper cost and charges,
such a proceeding would have beets very honourable and worthy
of imitation. But to take the public funds for such a purpose
he did not think worthy of such laudatory comments as had
been given to it. in several places. He would therefore beg to
second the resolution.
Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE lamented that the task of
replying had not fallen into other hands. He thanked Mr.
Bolton in one respect for the very handsome way in which he
had avoided every thing like personality, and he thought he
had put the question on a fair footing,. whether it could. be
legally sustained or not. '['hat measure had been charged with
a degree of asperity on the late corporation, as if they had their
owninterests to serve. Any person who had read that book to
which Mr. Bolton had referred, would perfectly absolve them
from any such aspersion. Mr. Bolton had told them that the
present any
Chancellor said on this subject, that it was on the
part of the corporation an honourable and .meritorious act. It
was perfectly clear that the church had been for some time sup-
ported by the the benefactions of the corporation, and that it
was probable these would cease after a little time. In one point
he could not agree with his friends opposite, in thinking that no
church establishment was necessary. He did think it was ne-
cessary, and he did think the church had a right to look for the
support which it had hitherto received; and he hoped he should
not see the time when the church was not acknowledged and
paid by the government. Ile !feared he should make few con-
verts—that many came pledged to a particular measure. (Cries
of " No, no.") He was WO to hear that cry, for he feared
that on a former occasiettewhen there had been a division of
30 on one side and,3);on the other, that pledges were given,
which the parties were sorry for. He should hype when they
came to look at the endowment—at the different sums appro-
priated to the different objects, that they would not think the
various allowances too large. He did nut think it necessary to
go into any length in this case, but he should wish to know
.what was the course to be adopted on
,this occasion—if it .was
merely according to the present municipal act ? for one,
.should adopt the course which was adopted by the last council.
Many of them would not hays thought themselves justified in
moking this endowment, but they had no means of making any
PthvisiOn for the clergy ; and unless it had been then done, no
provision could have been made. He did hope that, setting all
feeling
.aside, this measure might have no objection made to
it, and that that liberality of whieh Mr. Bolton had spoken,
would not be lost sight of on this occasion. This question
was sounded in every body's ears, and was in every body's
mouth. If the ,endowment should be confirmed, well; if it
should be set aside he had nothing to say about it. I3ut if any
litigation was to be pursued they ought to pause before they
run themselves into any expenses. The amount of the endow-
ment was stated to be £105,000; he believed it would be found
to be less. It was stated in the Courier of that day to be £63,000,
and he thought there was a good deal of reason in the paragraph
in which it was stated. He believed the bone of contention be-
tween the parties would only be found to be £25,000. A peat
part of the sum would be found to be independent of the parish,
and in such case became only a transfer„ The very large sum
which appeared to be taken from the public funds was not in
reality so large as was stated. He wished that every gentleman
would take the trouble ef reading the published report on the
subject through, before the decision on this subject took place ;
it would open their eves, and remove a good deal of their pre-
judices. They would not think after that that this SUM was
worthy of being a bone of contention. He was extremely
anxious that this matter should get before government, and
that it should be confirmed; he had not the least wish that the
subject should not be fairly canvassed and examined into. He
was sorry to take up their time; he was so little in the habit of
speaking in public, and still less on political measures. He
thanked his friend for avoiding all personalities; he would do
the same.' Instead of making an amendment he would wish to
know the course to be adopted before they run themselves into
a chancery suit.
Mr. Councillor E SMITH thought that the remarks of Mr.
Lawrence had been chiefly confined to pounds,onstlinliCl?ngs'• and
pence. It was principles for which they wer
on
amount of the sum was of trifling consideration. It wg'a'ts
principle that Hampden resisted, the sum otntoneywassotedtrt-
fling amount; but it was the principle on which he resisted—
that that had caused his name to be extolled. lhey were calledon
to decide on a similar principle,
and it was on principle on
which they stood. He thought that religion prospered the most
when left to itself. He would not say anything of the great
body of the dissenters, but he would instance the four principal
churches in their own neighbourhood, Seaforth, Birkenhead,
St. Jude's, and St. Ann's; the voluntary principle had been
adopted by those churches, and they were flourishing; whilst
the endowed churches had no congregations. People would go
' where there were attractions, and where the minister exerted
himself. lie should sit down convinced that there never was a
more true observation than he had somewhere read, that when
Constantine endowed churches he heaped riches 011 the churches

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