The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-07-31 00:00:00

THE CHUIICH IN CANADA

On a vote being proposed for the sum—Of E 11,799 for the
ecclesiastical establishment of the North American colonies,
Mr. PA IiKINGTON thought it his duty to call the attention
of the house to the insufficiency of this grant for the pur-
poses for which it was intended, more especially the sum of
£l,OOO fog the Bishop of Montreal ; and also to the destitu-
tion of religious instruction which existed in the two provinces
of Canada. He was sure that when the committee consi-
dered this, and the increasing population of those colonies,
they would think the grant was not sufficient for the object,
particularly as there was a Roman Catholic bishop at
Quebec, who was allowed a salary of £l,OOO a-year by the
local legislature of Lower Canada, and who also received
another £l,OOO per annum from the Roman Catholics of the
province. They had no right to encourage emigration, and
afterwards to withold those blessings and privileges which
were their birthright in this country. It was not his inten-
tion to move an amendment, because the forms of the house
stood in his way; but he was anxious to call the attention of
parliament to this subject.
Lord HowicK did not think it just, considering the flou-
rishing state and increasing prosperity of the Canadas, that
the people of England should be called upon to pay for the
permanent maintenance of a religious establishment in those
colonies, though he would hail with gladness any measure
taken to provide such an establishment by the Canadians
themselves. Previous to 1832 a very objectionable practice
had existed of paying the clergy of Canada out of the army
extraordinaries; but in that year, while Lord Goderich was
at the head of the colonial department, this practice had been
terminated, and a more regular method of payment com-
menced, which had received the sanction of that house.

Sir A. DALIZYNIPLE maintained that it was necessary to
make a more liberal provision for the clergy of Canada.
Mr. WALLACE observed that Canada had been styled a
religious wilderness, but he did not know a more barren wil-
derness than the Chinch of England itself. (Oh, oh!) It
had been the curse of Ireland, and would be the curse of Ca-
nada. (Loud cries of "Oh !")
Mr. GLADSTONE thought that there never had been a more
senseless exhibition made than that which they had just wit-
nessed on the part of the hon. member for Greenock.
Mr. HUME said there was no destitution in Canada with
respect to the service of the Established Church. What was
sought for was to make Canada like Ireland.

Mr. GOULBURN doubted the correctness of the opinions of
the hon. member for Kilkenny, with respect to the affairs of
Canada. He supported the propriety of an additional grant
to Canada, for the furtherance of religion there.
jllr. BANES objected to the Dissenters in England being
compelled to contribute to the support of the Established
Church in Canada.

After a few words from Mr. ELLICE,
Mr. HORHOUSE said he believed it would have a very per-
nicious effect if they attempted to force their peculiar re-
ligious opinions upon the people of Canada, contrary to the
feelings of the great majority of its inhabitants. He was
sure that though gentlemen opposite might be anxious to ex-
tend religious doctrines, yet they were not less anxious to
have additional support for their politicalopinions. (Cheers.)
Sir R. INGLIS said, he had presented petitions from vari-
ous parts of the country in favour of the maintenance of the
ecclesiastical establishment in Canada upon a scale commen-
surate with the wants of the people there and the wishes of
the people in England, and he begged to state that he
fully concurred in their prayer. He admitted that a period
must come when colonies, like the parent state, must main-
tain their ecclesiastical as well as civil establishments; but
that period had not yet arrived with respect to Canada.
Mr. O'CoNNELL objected to that part of the vote which
assigned 1,0001 to the Roman Catholic bishop of Quebec, and
751. to the Roman Catholic bishop ofNewfoundland. lie ob-
jected to the connexion between the Roman Catholic Church
and the State. If they were good men, this stipend from the
state was the surest mode of corrupting 'them. All sects
should be on an equal footing, and each left to support their
own clergy. Leave to the Canadian Protestants the payment
of their own parsons, and they would be much more zealous.
An act of parliament had nothing whatever to do with reli-
gion. Religion was degraded by acts of parliament. There
was no infallibility in them, and even in civil matters he had
sometimes no great respect for them. (Cheers and counter-
cheers. He had the high authority to appeal to in this in-
stance of the mild, pious, and not at all calumniating Bishop
of Exeter, as given within the last 24 hours in another place.
(Hear, and a laugh.) He protested against the state inter-
fering at all in matters of religion. If the committee divided
on this vote, he should oppose the grant to the Roman Catho-
lic bishops of Quebec and Newfoundland.
Lord SANDON protested against the invectives constantly
uttered in that house by the hon. and learned member against
the principle of an Established Church. Where was the in-
stance of a Roman Catholic body who could obtain an en-
dowment having refused it? (Hear, hear.) 'Was it not no-
torious, too, that the hon. and learned gentleman within the
last four or five years bad advocated the granting of glebes
to the Roman Catholic clergy, and the payment of that
clergy by the state? (Hear, hear.) Whenever the Roman
Catholics or the advocates of the voluntary principle could
obtain an endowment, in any colony for instance, they
showed themselves abundantly anxious to obtain it. (Hear.)
The hon. and learned member seemed to despise acts of par-
liament himself, and had taught others to do so also,—(more
cheering.) So long, however, as an act of parliament exist-
ed it ought to be obeyed. But the Church of England did
not exist upon the authority of an act of parliament alone,
but upon the solemn and decided declaration of the whole
nation.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said, the noble lord had made a personal
attack upon him, which he must answer. The noble lord had
on one point misunderstood him. He had never intended to
say that if a Roman Catholic clergyman got money as well
as power that he would not abuse both. He did not mean to
say that a Roman catholic clergyman would not be a hypo-
crite. He did not mean to say thata Roman catholic clergy-
man would not place a painted repesentation of the Bible, in
a gorgeous binding, on the box of his carriage, but which was
also a mere box itself, independently of its exterior, and then
drive through a town, canvassing the voters for a forthcoming
election. He did not say this had been done by a Protestant
clergyman, but, that it might have been done by one of
the Roman Catholic persuasion. (Hear.) The noble lord
had said that he (Mr. O'Connell) hail sought to establish the
Roman Catholic church in connexion with the state.
Lord SANDON—Yes, I heard you say so.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The noble lord heard me say so !
Lord SANDON—Yes, when alluding to the endowment of
the Roman Catholic clergy.
Mr. O'CoNNELL—The noble lord alluded, no doubt, to a
letter of his, written, but without a date, to the clergyman of
his (Mr. O'C.'s) parish, in order to attempt a pacification.
He had said it was true the Roman Catholic clergy should
have glebe houses, but that these glebe houses should be pur-
chased by the catholics for the use of the catholic clergy, and
in no way whatever in connexion with the state.—( Hear !)
He would refer the noble lord to the evidence which he (Mr.
O'Connell) had given upon this point before the committee
of the House of Lords, in order to show that such was not
his desire or wish, but that of the Roman catholic bishops of
Ireland. He had neve: desired, indeed he had always re-
pudiated, the idea of a state provision being made for the
Roman catholic clergy. In that opinion he had lived, and
in that opinion he should die. The noble lord had talked as
if the case was parallel to that of clergymen who were, he
said, paid. Yes, they were paid ; but by whom ? Was it
by those whom they served, or by those they did not serve ?
For his part, he would not pay for the clergymen who served
the noble lord. Indeed it appeared to him the noble lord's
clergyman had done him much good—(a: laugh). In civil
matters acts of parliament ought to be valid, but not in
matters of religion If they had been, what would have be-
come of Christianity ? He hulled defiance at any law which
attempted to shackle conscience. He would be happy to find
they were in a situation in which genuine Christianity could
exert its benign influence.
Lord SANDON having explained,
The CHAiRMAN drew the attention of the committee to the
subject of the vote under discussion.
Sir CHARLES GREY defended the vote. He would not
now attempt to prejudge the general question of the Canadian
church, but this he would say, that it was natural to expect
that when they were increasing the grants to the established
church they must be prepared to increase the grants made to
other classes of professors, more especially to those of the
church of Scotland.
The vote was then agreed to.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—SATURDAY.
The house met to-day at 12 o'clock.

A number of petition's on various subjects were presented.
In answer to a question by the Marquis of Cl] ANDOS,
Sir G. GREY said, the return moved for relating to the ap-
pointments made by Earl Durham in Canada, was laid on
the table on Thursday last, but had not yet been printed
with the votes. There was no objection on the part of the
government to give every information on the subject.