The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

*inpertai parliament:

HOUSE OF COMMONS

MONDAY

The first hour and a half of the sitting was occupied
in the presentation of petitions, principally in reference to
the education grant.

On the motion of Mr. GREENE, it was ordered that the
house would not receive any petition against a railway
bill, after Monday the 3rd of May, unless the petitioners
complain of any matter which may have arisen during the
progress of the bill before the committee on the bill, and
that from and after that day the committee of classification
May refer to the chairman of the committee of ways and
means, and the members ordered to bring in such unop-
posed bills as they shall deem it desirabl

to refer.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to Mr. Ferrand, stated
that it was his intention to bring the subject of the Eng-
lish poor-law forward in the ensuing (this) week. The

noble lord, also, in answer to Sir B. Hill, With reference
to rumours that arrangements had been made- between
the government and the Wesleyan committee for the pur-
pose of setting aside their opposition to the education

grant, stated that the communications with the Wesleyan
body on the subject of the minutes of the council of edu-
cation, were originated not by any person authorised by
the government, but by Lord Ashley, who, having been
given to understand that they were about to enter into a
resolution ho'stile to the minutes, suggested that that body
had better learn from the government whether they had
put a proper construction upon them. The communica-
tion was made through the secretary of the committe of
council, and the answer of himself and Lord Lansdowne
to the first question was, that persons holding ecclesiasti-
cal functions would not be eligible to the office of pupil
teachers; to the second, that the cases in which they
would give assistance to schools would be with reference
to those 'schools in which competent provision would be
made for the instruction of children, the daily reading of
a portion of the Scriptures forming part of that instruc-
tion, by which it was meant that the authorised version
should be used. To the next question, as regarded in-
spectors, they were informed that the government we-
r— to inspect t"!

prepared to choose a person .aeir schools; who
should only be appointed by the concurrence of the Wes-
leyan body ; and that the committee of education of that
body should have the same power of expressing their
opinion, and of having their concurrence and leave asked
before inspectors were appointed to their schools, as was
enjoyed by the British and Foreign School Society. He
was not aware that any grants had been made to Roman
Catholic schools exclusively, though grants might have
been made to schools where the authorised version of the

leriptures was usec

have at-

Catholic bishOps_ should express their views on the sub-

hen won

cider whether these grants could not in any way be ex-
tended to that body; and he trusted the time would ar-
rive, when, after due deliberation and consideration, they

rants to the Roman Cathol
purposes of education, as well as to Protes-

might propose to the hous(
lies for the

tants; but as regarded the present vote, no portion of it
was intended to be applied to such schools. The noble
lord then proceeded. in an elaborate speech of more than
two hours duration, to propound the views of the govern-
ment on the general question.

Mr. T. Du-NcomßE'follov

moving as an amer

inquire into the justice and expediency of the proposed
scheme, and' its probable expense; also, as to whether the
regulations attached thereto do not confer an undue in-
fluence on the crown, invade the constitutional functions
of parliament, and interfere with the religious convictions
and civil rights of the people.
Sir R. Ibrous and Mr. MACAULAY strongly supported
the grant, which was opposed by Mr. ROEBUCK, at the
conclusion of whose speech the debate was adjourned.

-TUESDAY

HOUSE OF COMMONS
The adjourned debate on education was rest

EWART, who complained that the scheme of education
proposed by the government was not a comprehensive

The Earl of SURRE

should not_ stand in the way of

jealousy, and would grant his support to the scheme now
propounded by government.

observed that no objections which he

the game of those who wished to defeat it entirely

Lord SANDON supported the measure now proposed by
the government, though it was neither a scheme of edu-
cation nor ought to be so considered. He valued it as
admitting the fact, that it was the duty of the state to
educate its people—that religion was the essential part of
everything deserving the name of education—that the
education of the moral man was, of all other education, the
most important—and that, without it, every other educa-
tion was a snare, a mockery, and delusion. He could not
eay that he gave his unqualified support to every detail in
those minutes ; but still, on the whole, they were well
worthy of being adopted, and he considered them to be
part- of that process of feeling our way which we had been
pursuing now, year by year, for some time past.
T • •

_lent 111ORPETH, atter expressing Ins regret that he was
obliged to oppose the wishes of many of his constituents,
entered into a general defence of the minutes of August
and December last, against the objections urged against
them by Mr. Duncombe and Mr. Gisborne. He ex-
pressed his regret that the old Protestant dissenting de-
nomination of England should have committed itself to
the course on which it had now entered. He regretted it
for itself individually, but he regretted it more for the
sake of the Protestant dissenters themselves ; for he be-
lievad that they were in the wrong, and that their proposi-
tion; however it might embitter the struggle, must, in the
end, undoubtedly fail.

The suls'ect then dropped.
The Trish Fever Bill then passed through committee,
and was reported without amendment, • the third reading
being 'fixed for this day.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

'HURSDAY

The adjourned debate on the Education Question was re-
sumed by Sir W. Clay, and after Sir. J. Pakington, Mr.
Hume, Sir J. Graham, and one or two other members
had addressed the house, - _ _

Lord J. RITSSELL deciared 'himself relieved by the turn
iieh the debate had taken from any apprehensions which

Ist his scheme

He foimd that Mr. T.Dun-
_
combe, who was the organ of the Congregationalists and
Baptists on this occasion, had mot•xenplred to
_propound

their principle, that the state had no right to educate the
people, and that the glory or disgrace of advocating that
doctrine was reserved for Mr. Bright, and for Mr. Bright
alone.' It was, therefore, too much to ask the house to
agree to this committee of inquiry ; for, considering the
terms in which the motion was couched ; it could mean
nothing else but a censure on the ministry for their de-
sire to give education to the great body of the people.
He recounted the services which the Whigs, as a party,
had rendered to the dissenters—asked what Mr. Bright
had ever done for the dissenters to outweigh the sense of

those services ? and asserted that, with those services fresh
in the recollection of the country, it was perfectly mon-
strous to impute to the government a desire to interfere
with their religious feelings and convictions. He then

had led to what was called the exclusion of the Roman
Catholics from the benefit of these Minutes. He denied,
first of all, that the Government had done anything to
lead the Wesleyans into the belief that no aid would ever
be given to the Roman Catholic schools ; • and next, that
they had thrown the Catholics overboard for the mere
purpose of conciliating the Wesleyans. He showed that
Sir J. Graham, who now blamed the government for ex-
cluding the Roman Catholics, had absolutely voted for
their exclusion in 1839, and had afterwards excluded them
himself during the six years he remained in office. The

Committee of Privy Council had declared, both to the
Wesleyans and the Roman Catholics, that it would here-
after propose a grant for Roman Catholic schools. The
question then arose, whether the government ought to
propose it now, and to endanger the success of their whole
scheme by throwing into it such an additional cause of
discord ? He was convinced that if the Government had
revived the proposition of 1839, or if in December last it
had proposed a grant for Roman Catholic schools, it
would have been unable to carry its present scheme ; for

he had seen that a strong resistance was always made to

ing it in

he occurrences of

I those who want

:ed an il-

when these grants had been agreed to for some years, and
when the result of them was known, government would
be able to bring in a bill on this subject; but the variety

they had been right in not legislating upon it at present.
He concluded by recommending the Minutes to the fa-
vourable consideration of the house.

After a few observations from Colonel SIBTHORPE, ex-
pressive of his want of confidence in Lord J. RUSSELL
. .

imposing4on the country a new scheme of education by
the single vote of that house. He adhered to those ob-
jections still ; but with his view of the necessity of pro-
ceeding at once to mitigate the monstrous evils of igno-

ranee and crime, he would not incur the risk of further
delay bx insisting upon them on the present occasion.
He reminded the house of Sir James Graham's failure in
his measure of 1843, for the education of factory children,

which he proposed to accomplish, not by a resolution of
that house, but by legislative enactment ; and said that as
thousands were born every week, for whose education,

gious, and intellectual, no provision was made,
he was ready to accede at once to any proposition which,
without violating religious feeling, would remedy these
great and crying evils. If he could believe that the non-
interference of the State was calculated to facilitate the

)ral, re,

progress of education more than its interference

ie wou

.t once admit that whatever might

De the right of t

State to interfere in education, it had better not exercise
it. But the evidence was conclusive that the voluntary
principle had failed, and therefore it was necessary for the

State to step in

He showei
-.1-innle hm

he insufficiency, not on

and praised her Majesty's Ministers for their intention to
provide better schools and to elevate the condition of the
schoolmaster. He deeply regretted that these minutes
had met the disapprobation of the Nonconformists. He
did not believe that their objections to them were founded
in justice. These minutes adopted the voluntary princi-
ple. No state interference superseded it ; for they could
only be put in force by its operation. They were also
based on a principle of equality, and therefore he had no
hesitation in giving them his support against the opposi-
tion of Mr. Duncombe. Alluding to the Roman Catho-
' he expressed his onira,-.., of

Acs, he expressed his opinion that no system of genera.
education, even in England. would be complete from
which they were excluded. The house was now about to

admit to a participation in this vote a class of Dissenters,
the Wesleyans, which had hitherto been excluded from it.
It was therefore widening the sphere of the national
bounty, and in the same proportion making the exclusion
from it more marked. The time was, therefore, come
when justice and good policy required from the govern-
ment a. mature consideration of the position of its Ro-
man Catholic subjects. The government could not in
justice exclude them from this grant. He considered the
speech of Lord John Russell as holding out a hope that
this question would be more speedily settled than was ex-
pected, and he (Sir R. Peel) therefore would not risk the
success of the whole measure by compelling the govern-