The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-04-06 00:00:00

were two meetings of the club at the King's Head that day,
one in the morning and the .other in the afternoon ; the com-
mittee and others were present at both • I went there at half-
past two o'clock ; the meeting was held in the garret ; the
boxes belonging to the society were kept in the same room ;
Williams was present, and they were reckoning up the ste-
ward's bank when 1 entered ; after the books were finished,
the steward asked could we do nothing in the affair of the
masters ; at that time we had a sort of a compromise with the
masters ; it was suggested by the meeting that it would be a
good thing if we could settle the affair ; I said I had been
with the masters, and that it would be a good thing to have
an arrangement made ; one of the committee said it would
be no use to enter into any arrangement, as the masters
would not take the biggest part of us back ; Williams also
said it would be of no use, and that he wanted two or
three volunteers to shift the knobsticks ; there was no di-
rect answer given to that, but one of the committee said we
didn't need any thing of that sort; the meeting then broke
up, but as we were going down stairs Williams swore he'd
be d'—d if he didn't shift some of them. I went away from
the house then, and Williams followed me • that was about
half-past three o'clock ; he said the union funds were done,
and that something should be done to get rid of the knob-
sticks, or we might starve in the streets ; I said I was go-
ing to Ralph Kennedy, to know if there was a letter go-
ing to Liverpool, as we sent to Liverpool every week, to
get money from the union fund; while we were speaking
Robert Kenworthy came up, and said he had been apply-
ing to get his wife out of the Lunatic Asylum ; he then
left, and Williams and I went on together to Ralph Ken-
worthy; Ralph, his wife, and a Mrs. Marshall were inside;
after some time Williams beckoned Ralph and myself out ;
we went ; I asked Ralph if Hardwick was going to write to
Liverpool; he said he was ; then Williams said, " Ralph, we
should do something to get rid of these knobsticks ; the
union fund is done or nearly so ; we have had a letter to that
effect." He also said, "We must either get shut of them
or we may starve in the street." He said, " Your pipe, Jack
and me have got ready ; we have loaded it with that powder
that you (Ralph) and myself sent for;" he said, " I have got
some fine powder in my pocket to lay a train that it may run,
and I want you (Ralph) to watch while Jack lets it off, to
see that nobody takes it." Ralph said, " I don't know ; its
a dangerous thing to be seen with; will it do any harm ?"
Williams said, " No ; it will only give them a bit of a start."
Ralph said, " I'll never mind going then if Davies (meaning
me) will go with me." I said, " Provided no injury is in-
tended I'll go." Williams said, " There will not ; if you
meet me at the King's Head, I'll send Jack the other road
with it, and I will come through Dukinfield." He also
said, that " If we were not at the King's Head soon we
should meet him in Scotland-street." Ralph then went into
his house; Williams went off; and I went to the King's
Head, and from there to Samuel Hardwick's. I spoke to
Hardwick at his house. From Hardwick's I went back again
to the King's Head, but, not finding Williams there, I went
to Scotland-place, and I met Williams just over the canal
bridge. He asked me if Ralph was come ; I said, "No ; I
expected him here." He said, "He is most likely up at the
place with Jack." Dukinfield bridge is not a hundred yards
from the canal bridge. Williams then said, "Come up this
way (Scotland-street), Jack will be up yonder." We were
then going in a direction nearer to Whitfield's. Williams
then told me to put his under coat on, that I should be dis-
guised, and he would keep on his top-coat. First, he pro-
posed that we should change coats, but I said my coat
wouldn't fit him, and that I would do very well as I was. We
didn't change coats. We then went up to Scotland-street,
and came into Stamford-street, where we turned to the right
towards Whitfield's. As we went along he took me up to
the gable-end of Mr. Swift's house and said, " Thou halt
nothing to defend thyself with." I said, "No ; I didn't
want anything ;" and he pulled a knife out and put it in my
hand, but I returned it to him. He said, " Jack must be
protected ; 1 will lose my life before Jack shall be taken."
He then took up a stone and said, " We'll go on, and when
we get near the spot whistle and Jack will know that I am
here." We then went towards the sawpit, I first and he fol-
lowing me, and when we got within fourteen or fifteen yards
of it, and immediately after Williams told me to whistle,
there was a flash. The flash consisted of a long trail of fire
running along the ground a yard or more. Hulme was within
two yards of the flash. He stood opposite the side of the
pit. The report was a very heavy one. Hulme then came run-
ning towards me and kept on towards Stamford-street ; there I
lost sight of him; I never saw him againuntil he was in custody.
Williams ran with me, and I passed him before he got six yards.
We rassed some buildings called Scurrah-buildings, where we
heard a woman cry out, " Good God ! what made that noise ?"
We went through Penny-meadow. At the Tontine Hotel
we met William Marsden and William Newton. At that
time Williams was walking along with me, for we then ceased
to run. I went down Wellington-street ; the prisoner was
with me at the time. We went through the market-place
before we got to Wellington-street. We went through Holt-
street, Portland-street, and over the canal bridge leading to
Walkmill. He crossed near the new square in Stamford-
street, close to Dr. Wood's house. I parted from Williams
at the junction of the canals ; he went off towards Dukin-
field along the footpath. Before he left he wished me to go
through Oldham ; he said as there is likely to be a bother
about this we had better go out in the country. As we were
passing two sawyers that were working at Mr. Gill's he said,
" I wish that long b—r," meaning a man named Massey,
" had a couple of bullets in him." 1 said I didn't wish any
one to be shot. He said, "if Jack has elevated yon piece
right he has made a job of him; when I left Ralph Ken-
worthy's the last time that afternoon I went across the mar-
ket-place ; I was taken into custody at eight o'clock on the
night of the 11th of December; I can't say whether Wil-
liams was taken up the same night, but I saw him in the
court the Wednesday following; we were then sent to Droyls-
den, and in about a fortnight after we were brought up in the
lock-up to be shaved ; Williams, the two Hardwicks, and
myself were left together; Williams said to the Hardwicks,
" I hope there will be no splitting on this—Jack is a little
good-'un, I shouldn't like him to be hurt—l would sooner
hang like a pound of candles than split on him ;" we were
sent that night to Kirkdale Gaol on a charge of conspiracy,
not of murder ; while at Kirkdale I said to Williams that
this was a very serious job, that a good many were taken up
on it, that some innocent person might suffer death for it,
and that if I knew he would have gone so far I wouldn't have
gone with him ; he said, " Oh, never mind it ; it will never
be found out ;" I said I was sure it would come out ; he
said, " no one on earth knows anything about it outside—
only me and Jack"; Samuel Hardwick then joined us; the
same was said in his presence ; I said I was sure it would
come out—that murder could never be kept secret so long ,
he said it never would come out ; [witness was here handed
a paper] I saw this before at Beckwith's ; Williams gave it
to me ; he said it contained some good receipts for making
lucifer matches and for making fire without light; I was
examined before the magistrates on this charge ; I did not
tell the whole account on that occasion exactly as I told it
to-day ; I omitted the last part about the discharge of the
cannon.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS.—I have been a sawyer
for twenty years, perhaps, during the greater part of which
I have been a resident in Ashton., Never resided out of
Ashton longer than a week or two at a time, when I had a
job in the country. I did not tell all that I knew at first,
but all that I did tell was true. There might be some parts
of it not exactly as I have recollected since. Ido not mean
to say those parts were not true ; but as near as possible they
were correct. Robert Newton and Keys apprehended me,
in my own house. I did not give Newton the account which
I have given to-day. I might have told Newton that I had
not heard of any man being shot or any shooting. I was
very much agitated at the time. I told Newton 1 had left
the King's Head the afternoon before the murder was com-
mitted, but I do not recollect telling him that it was at
six o'clock. I believe 1 mentioned some time, but I cannot
recollect what it was. I told him the names of the parties
who were there. I cannot say that I mentioned the name
of Williams to him. The recipe book produced was not
found upon me. It was given to the police by my wife,
whom I sent to look for it in a certain book. Ido not know
to whom it was given. I was a prisoner. It was given in
my house. They were not searching my house at the time :
they did search it, but the pocket-book containing it, in a
drawer, escaped their notice. Samuel Hardwick was present
when Williams gave the recipe book to witness : it was at
Beckwith's house, on the sth of December, at night. Wil-
liams said I should find some good recipes in it. I did not
read it at the time, but put it in my pocket. I went on
" tramp" to seek work, in October. I applied for work at
Lancaster, and at many other places. James Kenworthy left
Ashton with me. The first place we went to was Oldham,
where we staid all night. I was not sent out expressly for
the purpose of collecting subscriptions. I did solicit sub-
scriptions. I went to Bury, where the society said they had
many men out, and were very poor. After that I did not
ask them for subscriptions. I also went to Burnley. I
asked for subscriptions there, and I gave the society a letter
which I had received from the secretary at Ashton. I went
to Preston. I will swear I did not ask for subscriptions
there. I next went to Fleetwood to look for work. I did
not ask for subscriptions there, as there was no society. I
then went to Lancaster, where I saw some sawyers. I will
swear I never said to them—" If they would do as I wished,
they would soon blow all the knobsticks to the devil," nor
auv thing of the kind. I never told them I had a recipe
that would soon put an end to the knobsticks. I never
suggested to them that if the knobsticks were allowed
to work, I would set fire to their places. I then went
to Liverpool, and afterwards to Dublin. I did not so-
licit subscriptions there, but the man who was along with
me did. I stayed in Dublin two days. I then came
back to Liverpool, and afterwards went to Wigan where
Ralph Kenworthy solicited subscriptions. I should be
surprised to see him here ; but I have heard he is gone
away. Kenworthy joined me in Liverpool, and he went to
Dublin with me ; came back with me ; went with me to Wi-
gan, and back again to Ashton, where we arrived on the 2d
November. It was on the 18th November I first heard any-
thing of the pipe. I know it was that day because I saw a
letter addressed by a friend of mine, named Thomas Bennett.
It was not connected with the trade. At that time Bennett
lived with Thomas Perry, a spinner, in Cowell-lane, Ashton.
Bennett is a painter : he is my wife's brother. I do not
know where he is now, as he left Ashton to look for work.
He is not in custody. I have been in prison the whole time.
I was brought from Kirkdale here. I cannot say how many
times Newton has seen me in Kirkdale : two or three times
perhaps. He has not seen me a dozen times ; but I will not
swear he has not seen me half a dozen times. I told the go-
vernor of Kirkdale prison to write for him when I laid the
information. It is three months since. What I told him at
that time was true. I did not at that time tell him I was
present when the pipe was shot. I know it was the 18th of
November because I had seen the day of the month in Henry
Hardwick's book two or three days before. I cannot re-
member what was in the book. I first saw the pipe on the
18th. Hulme had it wrapped up under his arm. I expressed
myself many a time against using such things. I did not
threaten to inform more than once, if that pipe was not made
away with ; but I told Williams, on the night of the 18th,
I would let somebody know about it. I took it home with
me the same night. I told my wife, when she asked me
what it was, that it was some tools, for which a man would
call. The canal is 300 or 400 yards from my house. I poured
some water into the pipe the same night, about seven o'clock.
I got the water from the kitchen. My wife was not in then;
she was in some of the neighbours' houses ; but she bad not
been out many minutes. I cannot say when was the first
time that I mentioned Ralph Kenworthy's name ; but I
mentioned it in the court-house at Ashton. Both Ralph
Kenworthy and myself told them to throw the pipe into a
pit. I know Job Arundel and Henry Hardwick. I was not
present when Hardwick and Kenworthy ordered Arundel to
fetch some gunpowder from Oldham. I do not know Betty
Travis by name. I might know her by sight. She might
have been examined before the magistrates. There were six
or seven people present when Williams said, as he was going
down stairs, that he would shift the knobsticks. It was on
the 11th that Williams said, " Jack and me have got ready
yon pipe, with the powder that you and me and Harry have
sent for." This was not said to me, but to Kenworthy. I
have told this before to-day ;it was in the court at Ashton.
When Williams wanted me to change coats with him, he had
a blue coat on : it was not that which he is at present wear-
ing. I had no notion that Newton was taking me up on a
charge of murder; but I was committed for conspiracy. He
did mention something about a man having been shot. The
pipe was sent for to my house about five o'clock in the after-
noon of the 28th November. Ralph Kenworthy went for it.
My wife knew him. I have known Hulme for about three
years : he has gone for some time by the name of " Cast
Metal Jack."

Re-examined.—Newton did not come to me at all until
after Mr. Amos, the governor of Kirkdale House of Correc-
tion, at my request, had sent for him.
Samuel Hardwick, examined by Mr. WORTLEY.-I am a
sawyer. I was a member of the Sawyers' Society at Ashton,
and was secretary for a few months towards the last. In the
month of October last I went to Bowstead's house, having
been sent for. I found John Williams there, and asked him
for what purpose he had sent for me. He said he should be
obliged to have his card, for he must go off, as he had been