The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-06-07 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL.

William Alianson.—l am a cabinetmaker, and live at
Birkenhead. I am a freeman of Liverpool, and can
scarcely recollect whether I voted at the last election. I
rather think I did. I did vote for Mackenzie and Turner.
I am a carpenter by trade, and was at that time in
business for myself at Kirkdale. At the time of the
election I did the work of the Everton and Kirkdale
Committee. It was at the corner of Mersey-street, Scot-
land road. It was a shoo. I assisted in building it up
as a committee-room. Mr. Roskell employed me. His
Christian name is Thos. Eleetwood. I saw him writing at
thecommitte.-room. I saw him the morning of theelection.
The work I did was ss. 6d., and Mr. Roskell paid me. I
was paid two or three days after the election, near that
gentleman's shop door. I had been at work altogether
four or five hours. Mr. Charles Henry Horsfall, I think,
I also saw in the committee room. Ido not know posi-
tively that Mr. Horsfall's name is Charles ; it may be
George. I saw one or two more, but did not know them.
Mr. Roskell and Mr. Horsfall sat in the room writing.
Mr. Horsfall is a merchant ;he is tall and thin. Ido not
know any other person named Horsfall. He lives some-
where about Everton; and, from his appearance, I would
take him to be between thirty and forty. I don't know
what business lie carries on, nor if he has any partners.
By the CHAIRMAN : I have seen this Mr. Horsfall
about Everton. He was first pointed out to me in a house
In Castle-street, Kirkdale, about a fortnight before the
election. I would know him if I saw him. I have not
Been him in London. A person of the name of Whittle
and Mr. Webster were the parties who told me who Mr.
Horsfall was the first time I saw him. Mr. Webster keeps
the Liver Inn. I have not seen Mr. Horsfall for a long
time. The first time I was here I thought I saw him, but
It turned out to be another person.
It was objected to the further examination of this
witness that the identity of Mr. Horzfall had not been
established.

In reply to Mr. RODWELL, the witness remarked that
Mr. Horsfall was not unlike himself (Mr. Rodwell).
Mr. RODWELL : Then I must not ask too many ques-
tions. (Laughter.) But we shall see when he comes.
George Turner: I am a shoemaker, in Prussia-street,
and as a householder voted at the last election for Macken-
zie and Turner. 1 was canvassed for Mackenzie and
Turner, and I was canvassed for Cardwell and Ewart by
Mr. Evans, and promised them my vote. Mr. Evans is a
master tailor- A few days afterwards 1 applied to Mr.
Evans to give me something to do. He said he had
nothing for me. I knew Thomas Pearson, a printer, in
Liverpool, rho was canvassing for Mackenzie and Turner.
I told him what I wanted, and he said if I voted for those
Zen he would find me something to do. On that condi-
tion I signed the requisition : it was in St. Panl's-square
I signed it. Jonas Gleave was the landlord of the house
I occupied, and Pearson told me that I should see Jonas
Gleave and vote with him. I was indebted to Gleave. at
that time about £6, a little more than a ,quarter s rent.
When Pearson told me this I did not object to it. He
told me that if I went to Jonas Gleave's I would be put
down upon the book and employed, and that the money I
svas to receive for that employment was to go to the pay-
ment of the account which I owed to Jonas Gleave. That
conversation took place a short time before the election.
Pie said I should be well paid for my'trouble if I voted for
litackenzie and Turner. I saw Gleave a day or two after.
wards at his own house, the Derby Arms. and was
introduced to him by Mr. Pearson, .who told Gleave that
it was my intention to vote for the other party, but that
he could persuade me over if they would find me some-
'thing to do. He further explained how this was to go
against the rent which I owed him for my house. There
"were no specified terms, but as to how I was to be em-
ployed I was told that I was to 'be at May's public-house,
in Ranelagh-street, the day after, and to remain there for
instructions and do what they thought proper. I went
thef!hero, and remained till after'the polling. Sometimes
to go an errand : voters'came there and 1 gave them
r n
-°'ng cards, and assisted so far as I could. had
nothing to do with canvassing. I was there for six or
sevendays, went on messages to the Swan, where I
paw Mr. Gleave and various other partie engaged in the
to M
paw
Gs of the election. also went to the Derby Arms,
.
Scott Russell, anti to others. On the Saturday
after the election m account was settled. I had been
employed six or seven days. I was paid for two or two-
and-a.half days more than I was really employed. All 5.
got in money was Iti. ed., and the rest went to pay the
rent. I don't recollect how much was set off against the
rent : only a few weeks, the rent each week amounting to
75. 6d. I wanted so much per day, but they made an
objection, Russell among the rest. I wanted 10s. a-day,
that they objected to, bnt they made an allowance of a
couple of days more, to make it up. I think they reckoned
about 6s. a day. I doli't remember what was the entire
amount of my remuneration.
Cross-examined.: I wanted 10s. a-day for seven days.
I was employed about -six days. I asked 10s., but they
only gave me 6s. a-day. got 12s. 6d. in cash, and in my
rent-book credit was given for a sum which I don't ijust
remember. I made oat a bill for six days. and I wascaid
for six days. There 'was a word said about two extra
days by RusselL I think Russell told me to charge6s.
a-day. I am not positive that I received more in cash
than £1 12s. 6d.; it was that amount within a 'few
ahllings. I was actively employed four days and a-half, or
somewhere about four, and so I added two and ran& it
six. I was not in business that time. I had beets a boot
and shoemaker. I have paid my rent months ago. was
distrained upon by Mr. Gleave. The bailiffs came, and
I went to him and was a little angry, but did not tell him
he should smart for it, or that I would have my not to my knowledge. I did threaten to re7enge—t
court for a few ahillings he owed me : I druothire'ite iet
into court. I never threatened him with anythinghat
took place with 'reference to the Liverpool electian I
Swear that I have not said a word to Jonas Gleavewt. "th
reference to his conduct at the last general election..
Mr. RODWWL:: 'Rave you said so to anyone else.?
Witness : That is a different matter.
Mr. RODWELL : Who did you speak to about it,
Witness: No, I never did.

Mr. RODWELL:: Doc7ou deny that you said to-same
one, " I will he revenged upon the long fellow, and
Show him up when 1 gc up to London ?"

Witness : I never did.
Mr. ROD WELL : Die. you break your promise ticlfr.
Cardwell and .llr. Ewart for £1 12s. 6d. ?
Witness : I can't deny-the fact.
Mr. RopwecA..: 'Hoc: long was it before the elec'.ion
when you promised yoln-,:ote ?
'Witness : I eigned rthe requisition on the Sunday
morning.

Cross-examination corrt.'nued : I have not been mulch
With the Reform party-since I voted at the election. I
dare say I have stated what took place at the election to
several parties. I wenttc York Buildings, in Liverpcol.
IVIr. Evans, tailor, took me there. I can't tell any party
to whom I mentioned the a'air before yesterday week.
By Mr. BOOKIW .: • have never threatened Zor.as
Cleave except in saying -at one time that I would put
him into the county court.
Samuel Hesketh 1 I am a freeman, and at the last
Liverpool election voted • fm- Mackenzie and Turner. kno the Swan Inn
and;' was there the night before the
nomw ination.
I weal to see' my son could get a colour
to
causecarry. I went of I knew it wasmo'n a- accord. I went there be-
°th"'e. side I wished to vote for,
•_Mackenzie and Turner's. .went to see if I could find
Jonas Gleave. I saw him, and he told me to come down
next morning Besides Gleave, I saw other persons pre-
sent. Jonas said my son .nae too young, being only
between 17 and 18. He told me that I was to come
.down to his house next morning to see whether my son
,could carry the colours or not. did go down, and took
tnY son with me. I got a colour for my son to carry, his
mame having been put down to, canry a flag. He said he
Would find me an easier iob than carrying a colour. That
was on the nomination-dray, and in the Derby Arms, the
hause occupied by Jonas Gleave. ,Besides Jonas Gleave
Mthere was a man in the yard •who ;put the names down.
e pit them down in a small memorandum-book, and
hewrote them down while heavas.iz. the yard. He put
down my name, and my sari's alsoi at least when I gave
him my name he put down something in the book. I
went to the hustings in the procession. I did not carry a
banner, :although my son did. A great many were car-
rying.colours. Jonas Gleave gave me:r.,s. 6d. for my son
Carrying the colours. He paid me it with his own hand.
I paid ray son Is. 6d., and kept 'the rest to myself.
(Laughter. ) I did not see anybody butcGleave present
at the time when I was paid. lam a master roper, and
work for mr-self. I was at Jonas Gleave's on the morning
nf the polling-day. I was promised nothing for my vote
by co person whatever.

Cross.examined : I have always voted Red !far years.
BY Mr. PAGier : I have voted " red" since Porter's
election,
got £lO for voting " Bed" at iEwart and
I)en'sGe's election.
nhe,hLetles seed was called, and objected to by Mr. James,
prov ‘ue ground that his name was not in the list. To
k agenaY,
free was afterwards moaned by Mr.
B
lat a man of Liverpool, sad voted at the
earte_ction for Turner and Afackenzie. I was employed
Istt LertMour on the day of the nomination. A man
h•as Paid the
the Derby Arms put my name down. I
h°ese--net 11, Ye
after the election by Jonas Gleave, at
znYeelf at treeet. in the lobby of the house. was b. 7
paq down 'e time
hod" • The man was not there who had put
any , nor did
riorse, io Y
th koo,
see the book. I did not see him
I e nitro, a public house called the Bay
go a deal there. 1-Ted, kept by a man named Tra.
sight, but never whi leis Mr. John Buck Lloyd by
neighbours there! 41t that house. I have my own
The inquiry
was then adjourned( till next morning.

...
SAT 11
—_____
41). The inquiry was A.Y, JUNE 4.
resumed examination of at eleven o'clock, by the
John Dimsdale, examined b
I am a freeman of Liverpool}:a dvoted at the last elec-
Ur BODKIN. who deposed :
tion for Mackenzie and Turnenr. vI
saw Mr. Mackenzie
at the Adelphi Hotel before the polling day. It was, per-
haps, a few days or a week before. I was alone when I
went in. I went by myself. I did not communicate with
any one before I went. I saw Ur. Mackenzie on the
first floor. I went up stairs, having been shown up by a
waiter. I was shown to a room where Mr. Mackenzie,
Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Turner were. I shook hands with
both candidates, and " Good morning,
sir," was all that
Passed. There were some other gentlemen present, but
who they were I cannot sa
room while I was there. y. A gentleman came into the
I might have remained in the
sight, but never
room about five orsaw ten minutes. I knew Mr. Turner by
Mr. Mackenzie before. I had signed
the requisition to them. They did not speak to me about
my vote. Tlie
became out with me. I was a canvasser
for that ward, cannot say whether I was on the
committee or not. I made a return to the ward com-
mittee, which met at the Roscoe Head. I could not tell
the names of the committee. There were many in the
room. I can't say who was the chairman. Mr. Payne,
an attorney, was on it, and also Mr. Cooper, the same
whoa I have previously mentioned. I could not swear
that Mr. Payne was the chairman. The secretary, I
think, was Mr. Cooper. I could not say that Mr. Gre-
gory acted as secretary. I could not say whether the one
or the other acted. I have seen several gentlemen writing
there, Mr, Cooper and Mr. Gregory among the rest. I
made my returns, not every day, but every other day. I
litid a =wising book, I know Ur, Culshaw by eight i

I have seen him in the room. I have seen Mr. Shaw,
but I can't say that I have seen Mr. Thomas Fleming.
Mr. Jones, Mr. S. Jones, Mr. Henry Bremner, nor Mr.
Copeland. I don't believe I did go to the committee-
rooms to make my returns that day. I went to visit the
members at the hotel in consequence of having been sent
for. There are a few voters in the neighbourhood of Gill-
street Market, perhaps five or six. I had not any con-
versation at any time with Mr. Forbes Mackenzie about
employment at the Custom-house, at least, not before the
election. I had after the election. I applied for a situa-
tion in the Custojn-house. I had not a conversation with
any person before the election about a situation in the
Custom-house. I swear that I had no conversation with
any one. I did not see Mr. Forbes Mackenzie, personally
when I made application to him for a situation in the
Custom-house. I have been examined in Liverpool be-
fore on this matter. I had no conversation with Mr.
Mill—none whatever, on the subject. I recollect meeting
that gentleman along with Mr. May and others : Mr.
May and some gentlemen did speak to me about it. They
spoke to me so late as last week. I told them, last Sa-
turday, that I would not satisfy them. Mr. May spoke to
me on several occasions about the matter of a situation. I
dare say I may have mentioned to Mr. May, beforethe elec-
tion, that I would like to get into the Customs. Ido
not know Mr. Oliver Hatch at all. I have not seen any
one at the Roscoe Head pay any money. I only saw
money given once during the election, but for what I
know not. I was applied to once for money, but said I
could not give it.
Cross-examined : I am a tradesman of Liverpool. The
letter produced is the one I sent to Messrs. Turner and
Mackenzie:: I received no answer to it. I sent it some
months after the election. I saw Mr. Mackenzie at the
Adelphi in consequence of a message. I went into the
large room where the candidates were. I did not see Mr.
Mackenzie again till the day of the election—at all events
to speak to. As to the ward committee, it was a standing
committee, which bad existed for a long time before.
By the CHAIRMAN : I bad no connexion with it before,
and had never been i❑ the habit of going there.

By Mr. &kiln' : I can't say that I have assisted in the
municipal elections, except at the one in November last.
The same committee were acting so far as I knew. I be-
lieve the committee existing before the general election
was the same as the one which was employed for Turner
and Mackenzie. I saw several gentleme❑ writing in the
committee-rooms. I don't know whether Mr. Payne
was chairman. I can't tell who were upon the com-
mittee and who were not. There were a great Many
chairs around the table. I know they went there who
took an interest in the election. I think Mr. Weston
was there.

By Mr. Bonny •: I cannot say that there were placards
posted on the outside of the committee-room there
might have been. On the day of the election flags were
hung out of the windows of the committee-room.

By the CH kt£RMAN : The Adeiphi is in Rodney-street
ward. There is a large number of voters of the poorer
sort in this district—at least in the part of it which I
canvassed. Most of the voters there were, T believe,
householders. Of the electors the most of them voted
for Mackenzie and Turner.

George Ward examined : I am a woolbrolcer in Liver-
pool. I interested myself on the Conservative side at the
last election. I was a member of the committee. Messrs.
Culshaw, May, and Musker, were members. I don't re-
collect -Musker acting as a member. Mr. M. Edward
Williams (Mr. Lloyd's partner) was an active member of
the committee. I believe Swetenham was on the commit-
tee, and I saw him there. He was in constant attendance
at the Swan committee. I could hardly know the man
if lr-saw him now. Mr. Jonas Gleave was the secretary,
and George Gleave was clerk.
Isy Mr. MAcAuLAy : Bat did not'Swetenharn, as Geo.
Cleave was often drunk, do his duties, when he was inca-
pable :'—l never saw either the one or the other drunk.
remember the name of Sweterrham very well, but would
.not know him now.

Swetenham was here called into the room, and witness,
•in answer to Mr. MAC AULA.Y, said, he recognised him as
the same man he had seen in the committee room habi-
tually. I can't say that I have -seen him at a small table
or not, but I have seen him writing. I have seen him re-
ceive the returns of the canvassers in the room. I have
declined to make any et atement to the parties conducting
the case for the petitioners. I never was called upon to
give it. He was not, to my knowledge, the person who
communicated from the ward committee board to the
central committee. ido not -know that the committee
at the Swan held communication with the central com-
mittee. I had nothing to do with the communication to
the central committee. 'I took very little notice of what
took place. It is not 'to my memory that there were con-
stant communicrtione betwixt the one committee and the
other. I had nothing to do with that department.
Mr. MACAULAY : Then there was a department ?
Witness: I knew there was a central office, for I have
been there ; but I know of no desparrhes being transmitted
thither from the Swan committee. It may have been
sent to the central office, but'l was net cognisant of the
fact. I have seen the state of the canvass, but Ido not
know whether it was anyhodY's duty or business to carry
the state of the canvass to the central office. We had a
clerk and a chairman, and !I swear that I do not know
of any communication whatever between the committee
room and the central office. I swear that, to the best of
my knowledge, I never heard mention made of any com-
munication from the central office, I was a member of
the ward committee which was constituted for prosecuting
the canvass. Occasionally I was present at the meetings
held to discuss the state of the canvass. I was there on
most occasions. I incurred a little expense. I paid a
small bill for one of the committee-rooms connected with
the ward. I paid '-;etween 30s. ant: £2 to Mr. Rigby,
from whom the room was taken. That is the only pay-
ment I ever paid on account of the election. I carried
the memorandum book to Mr. 'Jonas Gleave, who repaid
me the money saboequently. 'I am not aware that any
members of the committee incurred any expenses. We
had a clerk and canvassers—not paid canvassers, that 1
know. There was -no doorkeeper, that T know of. At
least I never saw such a person. .:s.l.Teither was there a
messenger. I know- of no expenses but for stationery and
books. I don't kaow how many rooms we had at the
Swan. Ido not know of the small room beside the com-
mittee room. I do not know of a private room. I was
at the Swan on the polling day. I had a list of names.
My district was at same distance from the Swan. Nothing
more going on there than what concerned the election.
I went several times during the election to see how the
poll was going on. 'I. merely ran in there as I was passing.
We had got another heuse for the convenienceof the polling.
They did not receiveelips of thestateof the poll thatlknow
of at the small room fel- which I paid. 'I
-don't remember
who the persons were at the „Swan on the polling day. I
don't remember. do not know that-Swetenham was
there. I have no recollection of the subject. He was not
there checking the -returns to my knowledge. I had
nothing to do at the swan. I did not seearibbons at the
Swan till the nomination morning. They were not
rosettes. I saw ribbons merely. The ribbons were from
the general committee rooms, and I saw them given to
those parties who joined in the procession. I don't
know who distributed , the ribbons. The ribbons, so
far as I know, were not tied to the top ef sticks. I
was there, and did not see them. Except the 40s. paid
for the room employed during the day of thecoll, I made
no payment whatever. a had nothing to do whatever
with the financial affairs. xI know of no other outlay. I
may have seen letters from the central committee-room at
-our committee ward, beit,i don't recollect. I have not
-seen on the table of our committee-room circu:ars from
the central office. I swear: that I have not. 6-,1 did not
•take any reports to the central-room. I called in to see
how things were moving—nothing more. As a-member
of the Swan Committee, I do not know that it was a part
of our duty to communicate with the central-offioe-
Cross-examined : I am a -wool broker in Liverpool.
'This ward committee was a-standing body. 'Mr.tßuck
Lloyd was chairman for the municipal election that I
have voted at ; Mr. Jonas Cleave secretary. In my
wart: the voters were chief), householders. I had a
favocrable canvass, which promised a majority ; a large
majority.

By Mr. MAcNuLAv : This comraittee was the same
body -that conducted the municipal election. I never
attended it in the course of a municipal election. I never,
either at one time or another, paid any money towards
payment of the expenses.

•
Mr. MACAULAY : Who was Tezpocsible for the ex-
penses ?

Question objected to.

By the Cf.t.9-rillkfAN : I never saw anybody paid except
on the occasion when I paid the small bill.
By Mr. BALI. I did not make any -stipulation as to
expenses before I entered upon my duties as a member of
the committee. I believe, from what I have heard since,
that it was the.acme body that managed the municipal
election.

At this stage of ,the investigation the room was cleared,
and upon the return of the reporters, the Chairman said :
I have to inform .counsel that the committee -have been
considering the length to which the examination in chief
of the witnesses has -been proceeded with by -the learned
counsel for the petitioners ; and I wish now to express
their opinion, that while they are perfectly aware of the
difficulty of counsel in examining witnesses whom they
believe to be unfavourable, the committee still think that,
unless the examining counsel have reason to suppose that
the witness is purposely suppressing the facts, the exami-
nation should not be allowed to proceed on the prie-
ciple of a cross-examination, but that it should be con-
Cried to the ordinary rule of examination in chief.
John Swetenham, examined by Sergt. KINGLAKE, said:
I am in business in Liverpool as acollector of debts. Before
the election I was out of employment. At the time of the
election I went and inquired at Jonas Gleave's if he could
employ me as poll-clerk or anything of that kind at the
election. That was four or five weeks before the election.
He is a plumber and a publican. I know him for many
years. He said he could not give me fall employment,
but he would give me some. He was to employ me in
the committee-room, at his own house. I began on
Wednesday morning, when I went to the Derby Arms,
and commenced business in a private room by myself.
i I found the books at which I was employed n the room.
I was occupied in that room for several days ; I cannot tell
how many ; and then I was told to go to the Swan. The
committee-room was opened across the road. I did go.
I went to one of the upper rooms on the first floor.
I saw there, while I was writing, various persons,—some
of them who were closeted with me. Mr. Riding, who
was chairman, was there, and I also saw Mr. J. Buck
Lloyd, who was an elector of the ward. Jonas Gleave was
the secretary, but I can't say how many were on the com-
mittee. Mr. Leader was one whom I have seen there,
also Mr. Musker, Mr. Cooper, and Edward Wil-
liams, the latter of whom was frequently in and
out of the room. I have seen him running back-
wards and forwards, with notes, &c., which he some-
times handed to Jonas Gleave. I was there at the time
of the election. I was employed at the books and papers.
Canvassers brought statements to me. They called in
and gave in their returns. The canvassers did not set
out from the committee-rooms. I know Mr. Horne • he
was a canvasser, so was John Smith, now in the Post-
office ; a person named Williams, not the same as I men-
tioned before; Russell, whom I understand is an agent
and broker, but I do not know where he lived. The
ward was divided into sixteen divisions, and I supposed
there was a canvasser for each division. I don't know
WA the cauvesurs were paid. Besides attending to the