The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1849-05-08 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL

The monthly meeting of the Council on Wednesday,
the Mayor in the chair.

Mr. Alderman PROCTER rose, and, addressing the
Mayor, said, that before the Council proceeded to the
usual business of the day, he wished to draw their atten-
tion to a breach of privilege which he conceived had been
committed, affecting the Town-clerk and the Mayor him-
self. He alluded to certain statements which had ap-
peared in some of the newspapers. Mr. P. then proceeded
to read from the Journal of the previous Saturday, the allu-
sion made, under the head of " Talk on 'Change," to Mr.
Hawksley, in reference to his visit to Liverpool on Mon-
day week. [The article insinuates that Mr. Hawksley
was playing at hide and seek on Monday, in Liverpool,
and refused to meet Mr. Simpson and Mr. Newlands,
although he had promised to do so.] Mr. P. also said
the subject had been adverted to in the Standard of Tues-
day, but he would not read that article, as it had no doubt
been read by every member of the Council. He hoped
the Mayor would altoow the Town-clerk to set himself
right with the public.
The MAYOR said he made it a point never to explain
in the Council what appeared in the newspapers, but left
such matters for the public at large to judge of.
The TOWN - CLERK was glad that the question had been
asked by Mr. Procter, because it enabled him to reply to
that and other charges which had been repeatedly made
against him in reference to the water supply. It had
been stated that he was a partisan on this question, and
that he bad lent himself to Mr. Hawksley in the Riving-
ton project. It had been said that he had a personal and
pecuniary interest in the carrying out of the Rivington
project. (Shame !) The whole of these charges were
utterly and entirely false, and had he been able to ascer-
tain the names of the parties who had promulgated them,
he should have answered them in a different manner.
He now stated, that which he had often stated before,
that he was nothing more than the officer of the Council,
and since the year 1845, when the projectwas first brought
forward, he had done nothing more than apply himself to
carry out, to the best of his ability, the plans of the Coun-
cii. It had also been stated that he (the Town-clerk) was
connected with a local newspaper, and that he used that
newspaper for the purpose of carrying out his views on
the Rivington project. That statement was also altogether
false, and without the slightest foundation. The Town-
clerk then explained the circumstances connected with
Mr. Hawksley's visit to Liverpool on Monday week. He
said—On the Monday morning I received a letter from
Mr. Hawksley (dated Sunday evening), stating that he
should leave for Liverpool that night, and be here on
Monday ; but that, as he had been travelling the two
preceding nights, he would stop at some place short of
Liverpool, and come on by mid-day train. Mr. Simpson
and Mr. Newlands came to meet the Mayor, who was
engaged at the time. The Mayor asked me whether Mr.
Hawksley had arrived. I sent to his lodgings to see
whether he had come. The Mayor then asked for the
resolution appointing himself and other gentlemen to
enter upon the investigation. I told him that there was
no formal resolution ; but if the object of Mr. Procter
was, that they should form an opinion whether the details
of the estimates could be published, without injury to the
Corporation and the public. Some papers were then put
into the Mayor's hands by Mr. Simpson, but before any-
thing further was done, I was called out of the room and
informed that Mr. Hawksley had arrived. I saw Mr.
Hawksley ; and upon my return to the room, "I heard Mr.
Horsfall stating that they were not formally appointed,
and from what he had seen he thought it much better that
Mr. Simpson and Mr. Hawksley should meet and go over
the matter together. Mr. Simpson said he must be in
London the next day ; and I said that Mr. Hawksley was
here, and had informed me that he must be there also the
next day ; and it was generally agreed that Mr. Simpson
and Mr. Hawksley should meet and confer in London. I
went for Mr. Hawksley, and accompanied him to the
Mayor's room, but Mr. Simpson and Mr. Newlands had
then gone. The Mayor spoke to Mr. Hawksley, and I
told Mr. Hawksley that Mr. Simpson was going to Lon-
don by the express train, and he said he would try to go
in the same carriage with him.
Some discussion followed, during which Mr. Horsfall
and Mr. Stitt said that they were not aware that Mr.
Hawksley was at the Town Hall.

Mr. H. HORNBY directed attention to a proposed
special meeting of the Council called for Friday, to con-
sider a bill now before Parliament for the repeal of the
Navigation Laws. He condemned the principle of such
a meeting being called, as an infringement of a minute
passed some years ago, that no political questions should
be discussed by the Council.
This led to a conversation of considerable length, in
the course of which the Mayor most satisfactorily ex-
plained to the Council his reasons for calling the meeting.
The general business of the Council was next proceeded
with. On the proceedings of the Finance Committee
being read, Mr. THOMPSON objected to the payment of
£lO5 to Mr. Newlands for plans for the borough gaol.
The Council ultimately confirmed the proceedings.

The Dock Committee proceedings having b;en read,
Mr. HENDERSON moved their confirmation, and after
passing a well-deserved eulogium on the private and
public character of the late Mr. Poole, moved that Mr.
William Fisher be appointed a member of the Dock
Committee, to fill up the vacancy caused by Mr. Poole's
death ; which motion having been seconded, he was
unanimously elected. _ _ _

On the proceedings of the Health Committee being
read, considerable discussion took place on the new baths
and wash-houses, and ultimately it was resolved that
estimates should be laid before the Council previous to
the plans being sanctioned. On arriving at the business
of the Water Committee, _ _

The MAYOR said he believed it was understood that a
special Council was to be held to take into consideration
Messrs. Simpson and Newland's report.
A very long discussion took place, and ultimately it
was agreed that Messrs. Simpson and Newland's report
be received, and a copy sent to Mr. Hawksley, with a
request that he would communicate with the Council upon
it, and that a special meeting of the Council be held on
Monday, the 14th instant, to take Messrs. Simpson and
Newlands' report into consideration. The general pro-
ceedings of the committee were also deferred to the 14th
instant.

After a letter to the Mayor had been read from Mr.
Hawksley, in answer to Messrs. Simpsons and Newlands'
report, the Council adjourned.

THE REPEAL OF TH NAVIGATION LAWS

On Friday, a special meeting of the Town Council was
held for the purpose of petitioning the legislature against
the bill introduced by Mr. Labouchere for the repeal of
the navigation laws, 'as a measure injurious to the inter-
ests of the burgesses, as well as tending to weaken our
national defences." The meeting was convened by the
Mayor on a requisition presented to him by twenty-three
members of the Town Council. _ _

The MAYOR said, that in compliance with a requisition
which he would read to them, he had summoned the

• Council to-day. The Mayor then read the requisition,
which was in effect as above.
Mr. Councillor SAMUEL HOLME then rose and said,
that having been one of the parties to sign the requisition
which they had heard read, he took the opportunity of
stating that, generally speaking, he agreed with Mr. Alder-
man Horsfall and other gentlemen, in the opinions they
expressed a few days ago, that, as a general principle, it
was injurious, and far from desirable, to introduce into the
Council questions of a political nature, but that their de-
cision should be confined to the business which, as mem-
bers of the Council, they were sent there to perform.
They had, however, a precedent for the present meeting
in what had been done, some years ago, by the then Whig
Town Council of Liverpool, although he was not disposed
to follow their example. They had, likewise, a further
precedent for this meeting, when they considered the
course which had recently been taken on this question by
the corporation of the neighbouring city of Manchester, a
body, however, whose example he was not disposed to
follow always ; yet, as legislators for this community in
their corporate capacity, the Liverpool Corporation were
quite as much justified in meeting to discuss this question
as the corporation of Manchester were, which body, he
(Mr. H.) contended, had told the government to pur-
sue a course of legislation which was wrong and
injurious to the country. In reference, then, to dis.
cussing a question like this in the Town Council,
lie would say that there were exceptions to all rules, and
when he knew that a petition to the legi,lature against
the repeal of the Navigation Laws had been presented,
which was signed by 1000 firms in Liverpool, not consisting
of one party in politics, but signed by men who embraced
parties of all shades of political opinion,—when he knew,
also, that that petition had been signed by 42,000 adults
who had their residences in Liverpool, and also that no
counter petition had been sent up from the town, hethought
the subject was a very proper one for discussion. He did
not altogether look upon it as a political question : he re-
garded it as a question of very great local importance, for
the passing of the bill would have a powerful influence for
good or for evil on that great estate (the dock estate) which
they (the council) were sent there to manage for the good
of the inhabitants of Liverpool. (Hear, and cheers.)
He knew it was difficult to discuss this question without
offending the prejudices of many gentlemen for whom he
had the greatest respect, but however painful it might be
to his feelings he should not shrink from the duty which
had been imposed upon him, and before he sat down he
should move a resolution, which he felt would have the
assent of the great majority of the meeting. In speaking
of the navigation laws, he admitted That he could not
separate them from that free trade system which had been
recently adopted by legislature. They must necessarily be
classed in the same category with the repeal of the corn
laws,—a system, the object of which was to take from the
landlords of England the right they possessed in the so:1
(hear, hear,)—a system which, if not stopped by the
good sense of the people, would be carried to such an
extent as to produce ruin to the country. He firmly be-
lieved that it would have been well for the interests
of the nation if the good sense of the people of
England had stopped that headlong system sooner. The
principle of it was being carried out to a most alarming
extent, and now in furtherance of it, an attempt was
being made, the effect of which would be to destroy
the power of our commercial marine and to render all our
interests subservient to one power in the country. He
had always been led to believe,—and he felt that it was
true,—that it was when all our great interests were work-
ing harmoniously. together, we enjoyed the greatest
amount of prosperity, end the greatest amount of happi-
ness ; and he felt persuaded, that when the manufacturing
and agricultural intersts of this country were brought into
hostility against each other, we could not have peace or
prosperity, nor could our population be either contented
or happy. He was nota shipowner, and therefore could
not be accused of having any personal interest in this
question, but he had an interest in what concerned the
welfare of the community; and as the Town Council of
Liverpool possessed such a vast amount of property which
would be so seriously affected by the proposed bill, he
felt that he ought to come forward and endeavour to pro-
tect that which belonged to the interests of the port and
the community generally. He believed that on this great
national question it was of the first importance that they
should express their views fearlessly. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Labouchere proposed to repeal the navigation laws
altogether; but he made an exception in favour of the
coasting trade. He should leave it to those who had to
follow him to refer to this part of the subject. Mr. H.
then proceeded to refer to the main features of Mr.
Labouchere's bill, which provides that produce may be
brought to this country from abroad in ships belonginz to
any country. He then contended that the British ship-
owner could not possibly compete with the foreigner. To
do so they would have to reduce the wages and interfere
with the comforts of British artizans employed in building
British ships, and make their crews live as the crews of
foreign vessels—they must do this or it would be impos-
sible to compete with them. He (Mr. H.) would ask,
did any one amongst them wish to see such a state of
things ! He knew it had been said that the British artizan
was able to compete with the world. He fully admitted
that, but surely it was not fair to place the British artizan
in the unfair position in which this bill would place him.
Let him take one article in ship building. It was calcu-
lated that 50 feet of timber per ton was required in the
building of a ship. 22 feet of this was of British oak, and
the remaining 30 feet was of foreign timber, the freight
on which was set down at 100 per cent., and when they
took into account the price of iron and hemp from abroad,
and the wages paid to foreign seamen, they must feel
convinced that the proposals embodied in the Govern-
ment bill did an injustice to the British shipowner,
and if an injustice was done to him it most cer-
tainly would have its effects upon the artizans in this
country generally. (Hear, hear.) Again, to illustrate
another evil of the proposed bill it was only necessary to '
observe that the freight on a British vessel was generally
expended in England, but it was not so in the case of fo-
reign ships, which were generally taken out of the country.
The gold would thus be taken away from the country, for
it was ridiculous to say that it would not be so, and they
all must well know what the result would be when the gold
currency of the country was thus drained. Now he was
told that a British ship, say of 500 tons burthen, would cost
two-thirds more than a foreign slip of the same burthen.
In the face of that fact he would ask them, were they to
impoverish their workmen for the benefit of those who
did not, and who would not, reciprocate the advantages
they gave ? If they did so—if the government of this
country madly pursued such a course—they did an injustice
to that numerous class of British artisans whom they were
bound to protect by every just and natural law. He (Mr.
H.) was no alarmist—he had accustomed himself to look
dangers and difficulties in the face, but he did believe that
if these Navigation Laws were abolished the effect would
be to destroy the power and efficiency of our national navy,
which was the best defence the country possessed. Were
foreign countries acting upon this principle ? Quite the
reverse. The course they were pursuing showed a lesson
to this country, which it would be well for it to imitate;
but an infatuated blindness seemed to have come over our
rulers which threatened a curse to our land. Let them
take the examples afforded by the Dutch and other coun-
tries. Again, let them look at the course pursued by
America—that most important country—whose connexion
with this country he hoped might long continue. The
produce of foreign countries could not be carried to that
country in other than ships belonging to the country from
which the produce was brought. The ships were seized in
all cases where the attempt was made. He might also al-
lude, in support of the principle of protection adopted by
that country, that the same cotton which was imported
from America to this country, in the raw state, was now
subject to a duty of 20 per cent. on its return to America,
after having passed through the process of manufacture.
He (Mr. H.) did not blame the American government for
enforcing such a law; on the contrary, he congratulated
them on their wisdom and their foresight. The English
government might depend upon it that this principle of
protection would yet be still further carried out by the
American government in trade with California. They
might rely upon it that California would be declared an
integral portion of the United States, and that the coasting
trade to that country would be prevented. Mr. Labouchere
said the coasting trade should remain as it was. What a
boon! That the Welsh should continue to carry their slate as
they now did. But let him tell them that even the coast-
ing trade would be allowed to remain only just so long as
it suited the purposes of the Manchester Cerberus, which
held in its grasp the ministry existing upon sufferance.
The moment it suited the views of the Manchester school
to do it, they might depend upon it that the coasting trade
would at once be thrown to the winds. The policy of the
government seemed to be that the foreigner might stalk
through the length and breadth of the land, but the Bri-
tish shipowner himself was to have no such advantages.
Three-fourths of our crews must be English—the minister
dare not meddle with that—and in that way he must com-
pete with the foreigner, three-fourths of his crew to be
British sailors. It was said that they were to act upon a
system of reciprocity, but he would ask where were they
to find it ? Was it possible for them to have a general
act of reciprocity, varied as all nations were in clime and
.production ? The true policy was to reciprocate with
those countries who would reciprocate with them, and
make specific tariffs according to specific circumstances.
Nations were like men, who conduct their business upon
certain defined principles, and who fall into disasters when
they depart from that which is just. Protection was a
thing which it was now fashionable to sneer at. He (Mr.
H.) regretted to see it ; for they might depend upon it,
that the question of providing employment for their own
people was one which was daily becoming more and more
serious, and was forcing itself on the attention of every
thoughtful mind. Something must be done for our agri-
cultural population. They could not bear up under the
present system with the taxes they had to bear, and now,
when ministers were doing that which would deprive the
artisan of his bread, he thought the sooner they retired
the better. He did not wish to say anything hard of
those who did not agree in the views he took on questions
like this, but he must say, that he believed many of them
were endeavouring to throw dust in the eyes of the public,
and that, politically speaking, the consequence was, they
were going down the plane, and would not stop until they
learnt a lesson from national suffering. Their represen-
tatives in parliament for the borough were against them,
and one of those gentlemen, he considered, had broken
the pledge which he made before his election. He (Mr.
Holme) had taken the trouble to look through the first
six sheets of the petition to parliament, which had been
sent from this town against the repeal of the navigation
laws, and he found that those six sheets contained the
names of one hundred and seventeen persons who voted for
Mr. Cardwell at the last election. He had no doubt that
if he had gone through the whole of the sheets, he would
have found the same proportion who had voted for Mr.
Cardwell. (Hear, hear.) It had been tauntingly said by
Sir James Graham, that the members for Liverpool were
the exponents of the opinions of the people of Liverpool
on this question. He (Mr. H.) most emphatically said it
was not so. Mr. Cardwell had grossly deceived the elec-
tors of Liverpool on this subject. On the occasion of the
last election, Mr. Cardwell told him that he would never
lend himself to repeal the navigation laws, and in the face