The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-11-11 00:00:00

Mr. Councillor COG LAN here rose. He regretted that the
subject had been brought forward ; hilt Mr. Evans had been
in a great degree provoked by the comments of Mr. Heyworth,
accusing that council of partisanship in rejecting gentlemen
f,r some committees, and of extreme liberality in choosing them
for others. He regretted it because the subject was not connected
with the question before the council. That day had been de-
creed for much OEI,I- business—they had much better not waste
two or three hours in discussing the merits of the gentlemen
, forming the dock committee. The council were or were not
competent to choose the members. (t was their duty to 'bow to
~ the decision of the majority who had decided the question, he
thought it did not come with a good grace to accuse the majo-
rity of that council with illiberality. They might think a gen-
tleman not so fitted to serve in one situation as another. Sothe
were fitted for one department and not for auirther. They might
think Mr. Heyworth had the eyes of an Argos, and was fitted
for the watch committee, but (hey might nut think him fitted
for the dock committee. Still they were there ; they were the
individuals to decide, and whether correctly or not they had the
power, and he trusted they should always exercise it in a fair
and impartial manner. He thought they ought not to be called
in question because they chose this gentleman or the other.
•Mr. Councillor C. LAWRENCE said he would not enter there
into a defence of his conduct. He should not have interfered
at all had not a remark iu.the introduction of Mr. Rathbone's
speech of Monday stated, that they had selected the members
of the committee for their political views. (Mr. Itathbone,
" No, no," and cries of " Yes, yes.") He would not trouble
them with the defence of his conduct as a member of the dock
committee. He was satisfied that he had done what was right.
Mr. Councillor J. HEYWORTH here rose, but! was assailed
with loud cries of "spoke, chair, spoke."
The MAYOR said it was a rule that nagentleman should speak
twice except in explanation.
Mr. Councillor J. HEY WORTH said he was perfectly aware of
that ; he.h.id been reminded of it on Monday by the late Mayor.
He thought itonly due to himself that he should say be hail in-.
stituted no comparison betweew- Mr. Lawrence or any other
member of the committee who had been appointed He did net
even object to the list of those members who were sent into the
dock cenamitlee. He merely spoke of the great disparity which
existed between the lists of members elected on committees that
day and on Monday.
Mr. Alderman licercsorr rose to order. Mr. Ileyworth's
speech was anything but an explanation.
• The MAYOR II night it was an explanation of some particu-
lar point.
Mr. Councillor J. HEY WORTH said he merely drew a compa-
rison between the lists of committee-men that day and on Mon-
day. He said nothing about Air. Lawrence; he had his cha-
racter in his own keeping.
'Mr. Councillor RATHBV,;,- E rose amidst great confusion, and,
cries of "spoke, spoke." lie said be should not have ad-
dressed them. but as an ass •ition had been made which hal
been put into his mouth, ahich,he had never uttered, he should
beg to explain. When he' introduced the list of the dock coot-
nuttee, he expressly. stated that those had been chosen who
would hold the supremacy of the town cf Liverpool in the ad-
ministration of their own affairs, especially in reference to the
dick estate. There was ne reference to party whatever. He
only wished to give the words—let gentlemen make what use of
it they chose. (On referring to our reporter's sltort-hand notes,
of what Mr. Rat hbone did say, the words he uttered were—" 1
give in the list of names selected too) down as dock committee.
omen—of course following the proceeding laid down by the.
Town-clerk, that each must be ballotted for; and if any gentle-.
man objects to the names that are put down, it is at his option
to do so; I Must state that this selection of names has been made
with reference to those who will maintain the supremacy of the
town of Liverpool in the management of their own affairs.")
MARKET COMMITTEE.
Councillor JORDAN proposed that the following gentle-
men torm the above committee Messrs. H. Holmes, Dun-
eau, Evans, Thornhill, Bibby, Freme, and Jordan. Agreed .
to_

BY-LAW COMMITTRB
Mr. Alderman BROWN proposed that the names of Messrs.
Mason and Houghton, be added to those of the old commit--
tee—the committee to consist of Messrs. Brown, O. Hey-
wqrth, Birch, Houghton, Mason, Duncan, and Numeral.
Agr,ed to.

TOWN-HALL 'ESTABLISHMENT COMMITTEE.
The Town-clerk read the first re-solutions of the Council
relative to the adowance to the Mayor, and the mode of its dis-
pos:!l.

• Mr. Councillor fiswnoN proposed that the following gentle-
men should compose the committee—Messrs. Currie, Bonn, G.
Holt, Hamlin), and Houghton.
Mr. Councillor John floi.siss-tnoved that the Mayor have an
allowance of £2oooas had before been voted, which was seconded
b' Mr. A Ideriitau Bartday.
'Mr. Councillor Al thought it was a great deal too
much, but as he supposed he should stand alone in the opinion,
he would not found any motion on it.
Mr. Councillor JAMES LAWRENCE an objection had been
made that the sum named was too much. He conceived that
taking into consideration the magnificence of the Town of
Lives pool, and the dignity and hospitality which the Mayor had
to support, that it was not too much, and Lie was quite favourable
to'it.

EDUCTION COMMITTEE.
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE rose, in pursuance of a notice, to
tnovk the appointment of the Education Committee. In so
doing he begged to offer a few remarks. He de4ly regretted
that the political warfare shotild have been conducted on the
education of the people. He thought it was a subject on which
there should not have been any political feeling whatever, where
the welfare, both present and tuture, of the poorer portion of the
people is concerned He thought they should, on such a sub-
ject as that, throw aside all political feelings, and, most of all,
throw aside all misrepresentation and falsehood. He was pre-
p tre:l to state that the protestant children in these schools would
be made as good churchmen as in any school in Liverpool, he
(lid not care where it was. He was prepared to state, also, that
these children would be as well read in the bible, that book whiCh
it had•been-asserted, over and over again—(with great vehe-
mence)—falsely asserted, be must say,—knowingly, falsely
asserted—(ciapping his hands with extraordinary vehemence)—
bad been excluded from those schools—as any children in
Liverpool. It was their wish in this election to have put some
tories. on the school committee, wishing that they should know
something on that subject on which they had said so much,
and be prepated to offer some opinion upon it. If the system
was wrong, it was high time it should be made right. Let those
who spoke on the *collect know of what they spoke. . Led those
who bad asserted that the Bible was not in the school, as
honest men, and they called upon them as Christians, come
and see before they tirade such assertions. He had a right to
call on them, as honest men, and as people professing the
meek precepts of the christian religion, to do so. Ile would
not take up their time; be had spoken warmly on the subject
because lie felt earnestly. It was to him no political question,
and it never should be; but when he saw children going about
barefooted and ragged, nay worse, he must state, of moral de-
,,eradation, brought into the police-office, he felt most anxious
that they should be saved horn that degradation. Ile had no
hesitation in avowing himself a Unitarian dissenter; but he
did, at the same time, say, and he had the confirmation of Mr.
Charles Horsfall, who he was sorry was not present to bear
hit out, that he had never brought his sectarian principles into
that school. So far from that, when they could not get clergy-
men to perform that duty which they ought to perform,—when
only one gentleman of the church of England had attended, he
had himself heard the children the catechism of the church of
England, and, where he understood it, endeavoured to explain
it in the sense of the clergy, and in the reading of the Bible
also. Why ? Because the teachers of th epcople, who ought to
have been there, were not at their posts. Ile should take the
liberty of replying to any thing that might be said in. the
conned, and conclu,le simply by proposing a list of names,
which list had no reference whatever to party.
Mr. Re TriuoNa then read over a list of names which will be
found below.
Mr. Councillor JANIRS lIRYWORTH said, from what had
fallen from Mr. Rathbuise, that gentlemaia made it appear that
because difference of opinion existed as to the mode of educe-
tien, that should go to prove that it was made a political ques
tioo. He (Mr. Heyworth) thought that an immense difference
might exist on such a subject, without putting a political con-
struction on it. Although Mr. Itathbone might differ very
Widely in opinion with another party, he thought that he was
I not entitled to claim any peculiar or exclusive credit on account
~f his feelings for the education of the poor. He (Mr. Hey-
worth)
thought a noble manifestation had lately been made of
the feeling which had animated those of a contrary opinion to
Mr. Rathbone, in the two noble and splendid monuments that
were in the course of erection. As to the Bible in the schools,
no
he
wars fr°l
tr'o %b.
ehe bad been given to understand that the Bible—he meant the
lieved the himd
chaneotuhnindgerivsaesvetorebepetankaeltni,esa,nidi. to which
scriptures was not used during the school hours.
He thought that selections front the scriptures were not calcu-
lated to du that good which could be done by the whole unmu-
tilated word of God. Ile did not wish to make this a political
question. Ile w;slted to know whether the commandments
thatth te%l.- ? used tclineunsucl
ahno
do 1451.,
nWt ewsh tie%
second romin
were in the versh:lnietit
and
ordained that they should not fall into the sin of idolatry ? If
that commandment was not there, it at once invalidated in his
mind the goodness of their extracts.
Mr. Councillor Braces said he was anxious to propose a mo
"
tion as an amendment on Mr. Itattibone's motion. His
motion went to the extent that the seheols should be discon-
tlitrlniiiert4l),poasnidn
gt hseuproperty
motion
nd olt;.e_(Cries of no, no.")
could assure them that
he was not insensible to. its very great importance, and to the
opposition it would probably meet with; and be could add‘
moreover, that it would be mush more pleasant to hint to have
supported some other member in the council, than to bring for-
ward so decided a measure as that. lie hoped that the measure
was not intended in the slightest degree to cast any imputation
on the past proceedings of the Education Committee: and he
hoped also it would .not be. supposed to east any imputation on
the conduct of those parties be whom those proceedings had
beets uniformly advocated. Ilia wish was simply nut to give
offence to men; but, if possible, by a timely—a temperate—
and above all, a decided course, tit do away with those unhappy
causes of dissatisfaction, by which the public mind had
the been
vexed and term Pa"
ented throughout the greater
sent year. It had so happened, ou this question,
never yet had an opportunity of giving either a
_s7
ote or mu
that haed-
opinion. When the discussion took place in which his friend
Mr. Blackburn took so distinguished a part—(hear), he was
absent from town ; but if he lisid been present on that occasion,
he,ahould have given hint his support,, because he-did feel, un-
der the difficulties of the case, that it was the only reasonable
course which the council could adopt. He had always been
astonished -that any man could justify the principle, that the
corporation property, contributed by the public, could be appro-
priated to any one sect in preference to another.—(Loud cries
of." hear.") Ile declared that he himself could never bring
his mind to sanction the appropriation of such funds even to
benefit the church of which he was a member.—He would say
also that he did think that if the opinions of the calm and-con-
siderate part of the community could be fairly ascertained—
whether consisting of Whist or Tory—Churchman or Dissenter
—he did believe that that ()pinion would go to this extent—that
the public money could not he used fur the benefit-of any party.
Now, if this were the accurate conclusion, he would ask, what
blame could possibly attach to the Education Committee? In-
deed, were
n their duty? Were they not acting
strictly
accordancedoiig
-with the acknowledged rule of justice. in
ilhey
not
applying that principle to the public schools?—(Hear.) And
whether the mode be judicious or otherwise—or whether, when
it was found to inflict much disquietude and anxiety on the pub-
lic mind—whether it was very wise or discreet to persevere or
not—was a question on which the best of men might divide.
If it had been possible to-have introduced into the schools a sys-
tem of what might be termed secular education, by which the
children might have. been taught to read and write, and have
been grounded in the elements of plain and useful knowlenee,
leaving them to receive their religious, impressions from their
own parents and their own ministers of religion, then he thought
they should have attained the object So much desired, and have
escaped the present consequences that had resulted. But they
were perfectly aware that to such a scheme of education the
pJblic mind had been uniformly opposed. The whole tide of
popular feeling seemed to have set ttgaitist any scheme of edu-
cation but what was grounded on a religious Foundation. That
being the case, the committee being so surroundedwith.efimpii,
cited difficulties. what possible blame could Attach' to them,
they had availed themselves of the only expedient that remaitsed

. • .
—to ripen the schools to all denomidations, and combine reli-

pious -iustructiou with secular, 48' the best and the only way