The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-03-13 00:00:00

PRIVILEGE.

Lord JoHN RUSSELL moved the second reading of the
printed papers bill.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN offered several suggestions for pre-
venting the publication of objectionable matter. There was
one clause of the bill with regard to pending actions which he
felt to be most objectionable, and which he hoped would not
be retained, as he had no conception that it would be agreed
to elsewhere.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended the c?inse respecting
actions, to which objections had been taken by Sir Edward
Sugden.
Sir ROBERT PEEL read a passaze from the report of 1837,
to prove that those who were most anxious for the mainte-
nance of their privileges were equally desirous to abstain
from inflicting any unnecessary pain.
Sir R. IN GLIS objected to the bill as ex post facto legis-
lation.

Lord Josh RUSSELL said there was a suggestion from the
honourable member for Ripon, which he should- certainly
take into consideration, though he was not then prepared to
enter on the point.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Friday.
In answer to a question from Lord Sandon, Lord PAL-
MERSTON said, that Dr. Bowving's report on the subject of
the Prussian Commercial League had been received ; buti
he thought it right to look it over himself before publishing
it.

SUPPLY,

On the question for going into supply having been put and
carried,
Mr. Hu ME entered on the financial position of the country.
The deficit, he said, was caused, not by any falling off iu the
revenue, but by an increased expenditure. If her majesty's
government did not give some explanations as to the neces-
sity for increased establishments, amounting to 137,000 men
for army, navy, and ordnance, he should certainly divide the
]louse. In addition to the military force, a large police was
to be provided for ; and the latter was by far the more
efficient body for maintaining the peace of the country. 1-le
should certainly propose the reduction of the army estimates
to those of last year.
Col. SIBTHORP complained that though the honourable
gentleman examined the items of the estimates very narrowly,
he never would join in any measure for throwing the go-
vernment fairly over.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the hon. member for Kilkenny
ought to have made his proposition last year, when he (Lord
J. Russell) stated his reasons for an augmentation, which
met with the general concurrence of the house. In reference
to the American boundary question, he said we had no rea-
son to complain of the general projects of the American go-
vernment, or of the acts of the president, because they had
done every thing that was friendly to this country ; but we
had to take some precautionary steps to guard against the
incursions of very disorderly gangs of persons on a territory
which they looked upon as not belonging to either party. He
was sure the house would not refuse to place the army in
such a state of efficiency as to provide for the wants of this
great empire.
The house having resolved itself into a committee of sup-
ply, Mr. MACAULAY said the whole force estimated in Feb-
ruary, 1839, including the force for India, was 109,818 ; and
this year it was 121,112, making an addition of 11,294 ; but
of these 7746 were employed in the defence of India, and
chargeable on the revenues of that country. There remained
au increase of 3548 to be added to the 5000 men voted last
August. The right hon. gentleman proceeded to describe
the mode in which tha additions to the force would be dis-
posed of. The additions to the number consisted chiefly of
men; sixty-five men, consisting of four serjeants, four cor-
porals, and fifty-seven privates, having been added to every
one of the eighty-one battalions of infantry in the United
Kingdom, thereby raising them from 835 to 900 men.
He wished the house to understand, that if the number of
4,408 which were to be added to the army were struck off,
no means of disarming opposition, or gaining support, would
be taken away from the Crown ; for if any gentleman took the
trouble of looking through the different ranks of the service
he would find that the charge for officers this year was dimi-
nished by £2,000. Of the 121,112 men composing the mili-
tary establishment, 28,213 would be charged on foreign reve-
nues, leaving 92,899 to be provided for by the country. The
right honourable gentleman described the effect of the system
of giving additional pay and badges for good conduct. The
number of men wearing the good conduct badges was about
13,000. The right hon. gentleman having entered into
several further explanations, concluded with moving, that
£3,511,870 2s. Bd. be granted to her 'Majesty, to defray the
charge for the land forces for the United Kingdom and the
colonies.
Mr. HumE contended that a small regular force was at all
times more efficient than one composed of men who were
only half soldiers and half civilians. He should propose to
reduce the number of men to what it was in the year 1837-8,
namely, to 81,319.
Mr. WILLIAMS (Coventry) seconded the amendment.
General SHARPE pointed out the inadequacy of a police
force to preserve the peace.
Lord HOWICK, so far from thinking that the vote ought to
be reduced, was rather disposed to regret that it was not
larger. He could hardly understand how it would be in the
power of his right honourable friend to provide during the
present year for that relief which, in justice to the army,
ought to take place.
:Sir H. HARDINGE concurred with Lord llovvick as to the
absolute necessity for providing a better system of relief for
the troops employed in the colonies. Upon the whole, he
approved of the vote. On a division, the amendment was
lost by a majority of 100 to 8, and the original resolution put
and carried.
The Prisons' Amendment Bill was read a second time, when
Mr. WARBURTON gave notice " that, in committee on
this bill, he should propose the insertion of a clause, enact-
ing that persons convicted of a political libel should not be
treated, under the regulations of the prison, as those con-
victed of criminal misdemeanours." In proposing this
clause, he referred more particularly to the treatment to
which Lovett and Collins had been exposed in Warwick gaol.
Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—TuEsnAY.
Lord MORPETII appeared at their lordships' bar, and pre-
sented the municipal corporations (Ireland) bill.
'On the motion
of Lord.. N.{vtELBOURNE that bill was read the
first time, and ordered to be read the second time on Monday,
the 30th inst.
The Marquis of NORMANDY presented returns respecting
Irish peerages created since the union, and of peerages sup-
posed to be extinct.
The Marquis of •LANDSOWNE presented a petition from
the London Medical Society, praying for the adoption of
means to secure the further success of vaccination.
It was suggested that a bill should be brought in to provide
the required facilities for medical aid among the poor
throughout the country.
The Marquis of NORMANRY considered the subject so im.
portant that he should cause all possible inquiry to be made,
in order to ascertain how the evil complained of could be re-
medied.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COM LIONS.—TUESDAY,
Several private bills were read a first time, and a number
of petitions presented.
The Taff railway, after opposition and a division, was read
a second time, by a majority of 129 to 126.
On the motion of Lord SANDON, Promott's naturalization
bill and Hausberg's naturalization bill, were read a second
time.
Several notices of motion were given, and others post-
poned.
Sir J. WALSH withdrew his notice of motion in favour of
a resolution declaratory of the expediency of " a legislative
enactment" to authorize the publication of Parliamentary
Papers, Lord J. Russell's Bill having superseded the ne-
cessity for such a step.

THE SYSTEM
The CHANCELLOR. ofBANKING
the EXCHEQUER• then rose to move
for a committee upon the effects produced on the circulation
by the various banks issuing notes payable on demand. The
subject, he said, was one of which the consideration could
not have been deferred Lnuch longer ' • for in 1844 the charter
of the Bank of England world expire. The general conduct
of that bank, as well as of all others issuing notes payable on
demand, would come within the scope of his proposal, not
with a view to vindictive, but only to remedial legislation.
There was now a general feeling in the country that a time
had arrived when parliament should do something for the
settlement of the banking system, and this feeling was cer-.
tainly a very reasonable one, after two periods of distress in
the monied world succeeding each other with so short an in-
terval. He had never thought for a moment of exempting-
the Bank of England from the proposed inquiry ; that would
have been to act the play of Hamlet with the omission of
Hamlet's character. The present was a favourable period,
for the public were disposed to approach the subject in a calm
and temperate spirit. It would be an important question fur
the committee, whethet the present privileges of the Bank of
England ought to he sustained, or a system of tree banking
substituted; and whether its present powers were such as
they ought to be. With respect to the Bank of Ireland, he.
should wish to render its charter coterminous with that of
the Bank of England, which was the object of last year's dis-
continued bill, but he did not just now introduce another
bill to that effect, because this would be to prejudge a part of
the policy which was to be referred to the committee.
Mr. GISBORNE was desirous to include those banks which,
though they issue no notes of their own, yet issue the notes
of the Bank of England. The Bank of England was under
contract to supply then, with notes at three per cent. ; and
these notes, at this low price, were of course most largely
calledd for in times when money was scarce and dear ; so that
theissues of the Bank of England were increased just when
the state of affairs required.their contraction.
MI. ELLIS objected to the principle of getting up a coin-
mittee for the purpose of shifting responsibility front
ministers.
Mr. HUMS wished. the committee to go into the question
of currency, with a view of coming as near as possible to a
metallic circulation.
Mr. GECTI". was desirous of a committee, which he thought
would be n ,4'.nl chiefly for ascertaining what are really the
obligation! .f the Bank of England and other banks with
reference to the currency.
Mr. M. Arrwoon wished the committee to take cogni-
zance.
of other paper as well as that which payable on
demand. He said that nine-tenths of the circulation in
Lancashire consisted of paper not payable in that manner,
and it encouraged speculation just as much bank notes.

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The people wished to bee. soalething dotie bat v.bat they
wanted was a measure, not a committee.
Mr. CLAY said the appointment of a committee was con-
formable to precedent, and was particularl, fitting now,
because the public mind was not so near to a state of unani-
mity as to give a hope that there would just yet be any general
agreement in any measure which could be proposed. The
former committee bad produced no actual result, but it had
brought out much valuable information.
Sir ROBERT PEEL hoped the scope of the committee would
not be made so comprehensive as to become useless. There
were certain leading considerations which should be kept in
view, else the attendance on the committee would be desul-
tory, and doubt and embarrassment would be thrown over
all the business of the banks. It would be useful to examine
the relative advantages of limited and unlimited responsibi-
lity ; to examine the proceedings of the banks which issue
only the notes of the Bank of England ; to examine the dis-
tinction between banks of issue and banks of deposit, and the
policy of rendering them separate. But it would not be use-
ful to investigate the management of particular joint-stock
banks; and least of all to go into any inquiry which could
lead to a notion that parliament had any thoughts of unset-
tling the basis of the currency and the standard of value.
Mr. C. Woon was inclined to expect much useful infor-
mation from a committee.

Mr. HAWES thought it should include the law of partner-
ship in its deliberations.

Sir
JOHN REID rejoiced in the temperate tone of the de-
bate, and assured the house that the Bank of England had
no jealousy of the joint-stock companies.
Mr. &LANEY wished, for the sake of the poor, that the
banks should be obliged to give security for their circulation.
Lord SAN DON observed, that since the discontinuance of
the small notes, very little bank paper was in the hands of
the poor.

The motion was then agreed to.
- - THE CONVICTED TRAITORS.

Mr. LEADER next brought on his motion for a free par-
don to Frost, Williams, and Jones. He did not ground
himself, he said, on the merits of the case, for he admitted
the full extent and magnitude of the crime ; but he proceeded
on the ground that the law had been strained against the
prisoners. That was a general feeling among the working
classes, and the petitions for free pardon proved it, being
signed by 120,000 persons. The only authorities entitled to
determine the question of law raised at the trial were the
three judges before whom that trial was held; and it had
turned out, when the subsequent decisions of the fifteen
judges were made known, that the opinions of two of those
three were In favour of the objection ; so that if they had
decided on the spot, an acquittal would have been the result.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion of Mr. Leader, whose
arguments he repeated.
Mr. F. MAULE regretted this attempt to make the house
a tribunal of appeal from the prerogative. The offence was
far more than a political one : it struck at the very roots of
scciety and of the constitution. On the question whether the
prisoner was entitled to the benefit of the judges' opinion,
as he would have been if given on the spot, a memorial had
been presented to the home department from Frost's council,
Sir F. Pollock and Mr. Kelly ; and to that memorial the
three judges had sent an answer, which Mr. F. Maule now
read to the house. They therein stated, that the usage is to
decide any doubtful point against the prisoner, in order that
the trial may proceed, and to reserve the point. If there be
a verdict of guilty, and the judges to whom the reserved
point is referred decide against the prisoner, the verdict takes
effect ; if they decide for him, the judge who tried him
makes application to the secretary of state, who gives effect
to the objection ; and thus, in either event,there is no failure
of justice. That two of three judges at the trial inclined
towards the objection made no difference ; for the law is
taken from the majority of the judges, before whom the re-
served point is heard.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE admitted that their crimes had ren-
dered their lives forfeit. But that was not the question ; the
question was,-had they had the full benefit of the law ? In
Williams's case the objection was taken in time before the
trial began ; yet the attorney-general had proceeded. Mr.
Duncombe regretted that in the debate Frost's counsel had
not attended, to give their client the benefit of their speeches
and votes.

Dr. LUSITINGTON congratulated the house that the crime
was on all sides admitted to be incapable of palliation. He
deprecated an appeal from the prerogative to parliament on
questions of punishment ; the circumstances whichguided the
secretary of state were often such as it would he most injuri-
ous to make public. In this case the prisoners had been
gainers rather than losers by the irregularities they complain-
ed of, in the delivery of the two documents at separate peri-
ods ; for as one had been delivered earlier, and the other not
later, than the law required, the prisoners had, as to the
earlier of the two, a longer time for preparation than the law
entitled them to claim. The learned gentleman then en-
larged on the expediency and fitness of the rule as stated by
three judges. The absence of Sir F. Pollock was evidently
with the kindest intention. He had made a splendid defence,
and exerted his great faculties with an independence and
an industry unexampled, but well knew that be should little
serve his client by the opinion he would have to express if he
were to speak as a member of parliament. Dr. Lushington
added, that he wished to see no mom of these attempts, not
only because he disliked the interference of the house with
the prerogative, but because he thought the house uncompe-
tent to discuss any legal question of depth and difficulty.
Mr. WA KLEY made an unsuccessful attack upon the judges,
but extolled the extraordinary ability and zeal of the prison-
ers' counsel, in whose absence this motion should not, he
thought, be pressed to a division.
Mr. LEAnr.n., however,. declined to take his advice, and
the motion, on a division, was negatived by a majority of
68 to 5.
The house soon afterwards adjourned.