The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-11-25 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

for their diseentineance sees in that (%:uw ; much less now, when
a'uflut u ail part of the whute number were alrea.i!, Protes-
tants, atidslie had hopes that they %ietsai ;et rsase. Au.; al the
whole children beet., the poor childree et Irish lZoinan Catho
lics, he must honestly say, that he neither admired the charac-
ter nor envied the feelings of that man who could dissent front
their admission into these schools,—who could dissent' from
the assemblage of a number of children together in these schools,
who were the most deserted, in order to secure to them habits of
order and of propriety—brOught together to fit them for useful-
ness in future life, and, at the same time, to give them habits of
order, decency, and propriety. To acquire a knowledge of the
books of Genesis, Luke, and the Acts of the Apostles, present-
ed a scene at which indeed bigotry might frown, but ;it which
true christian philanthrophy would gaze with emotions of delight.
He had thus endeavoured to meet the principal objections which
his friend, the member for Castle-street Ward, had raised, on
introducing the motion which he had now abandoned. He must
make a few observations on what his esteemed friend, the mein-
ber for South Toxteth Park, had said; he had contended that
education was not a matter in which they could interfere. Now,
he was very far from agreeing with hint on this subject. They
were authorised by the municipal act to employ the surplus
funds for the good of the town, and in improving the condition
of the inhabitants. Was the education of the poor not good ?
Was there no advantage in amploying a small portion of
this sum for such an object ? (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.)
So far from agreeing with him, he was of opinion that they had
done well and wisets. They had done well in beginning with
the education of the 'ewer ranks; and he trusted and hoped that
they should vet realise the object which had been adverted to
some time afro by a councillor for Abercromby Ward. (Dr.
Carson, on the subject of establishing a university.) Their
neighbours at Manchester were now directing their attention to
the estiibiishment of such an institution ; and with regard to the
schooe.s theinselvee, he trusted they should never rest satisfied
till they had carried them to then highest point of efficiency.
! Why should net Liverpool havc: her norme? schools as well as
Edinburgh? Why should they have it said ;;sat the schook
existing here were obliged to send to the main for teachers ?
There was a great demand for teachers throughout the kingdom,
and it was an object worthy of ambition to make these schools
capable of sending out future teachers—sources of benefit to all
the country, and spreading abroad information in every direc-
tion. They had been told that "the introduction of this system
was a "feeler," its order to ascertain whether the people of this
country were ready to adopt a system so favourable to popery.
(A laugh from Mr. E. South.) Now he had had the honour of
introducing this system first to the Education Committee; and
he had strenuously advocated it,*and he should continue to do
so, and he did not hesitate to say that he gloried in it. He was
perfectly willing to allow that it was a feeler on his part ; and he
hoped and believed that it would extend all over the country.
(Hear, from Mr. Councillor E. Smith.) If the system were
right in one part of the country, it could not be morally wrong
in the other ; and therefore they were bound to consent, where
the same mixed population existed, to its establishment in this
country. Wherever a mixed population of catholics and pro-
testants existed it was desirable, he contended, that this system
should be extended, in every part of the empire ; and he trusted
that the future historian would have to record that that council
had been the first to make the experiment. He regarded it as
an honour to have made the experiment ; and he trusted it. would
succeed. Let them not tell him that there was any danger to
protestantisin from an union of catholics and protestants. Let
them not disgrace protestantism by telling him any such thing.
If he thought there was any danger to protestantism—to the
views he entertained—from associating with catholics, he would
instantly go over himself to the Roman Catholic faith. That
system which would not bear examining must be wrong. (Loud
cries of " blear.") He did not know any thing why he should
be afraid to admit the system to a fair trial. If this should fail,
he should begin to suspect that it was contrary to truth. What-
ever was the opinion on this point, that was not the place to
discuss it; they were not met there for that purpose. But this
he would say, "great is the truth, and it will prevail." The
education of the human mind would render them capable of
examining the subject for themselves. They were aware that
from its first introduction to the present period a great majority
of the clergy of Ireland had been strongly and violently opposed
to this system of education. There had been from the first
some honourable exceptions—some men who had seen its value.
They had joined in giving the board their support, and he was
happy to say that their number was on the increase; and there
was some hope that the opposition to it in Ireland would be
greatly abated, if not put an end to. They would remember
that the Rev. Charles Boydell tied been sent over some years
ago as a delegate from an orange society. That distinguished
and talented gentleman had altered his views upon this subject,
and, wit some slight qualification, had given in his adhesion
to the system. The clergy of the diocese of Kilmore had re-
cently had a meeting with a view to take into consideration this
subject, and though he believed that that meeting had expressed
itself hostile to it, yet he maintained that it was a circumstance
showing that there was a skaking in the opinions of men on
this subject on the other side of the water. It was not at a time
like this, when the strenuous opponents of the measure were be-
ginning to relax, that that reform council should now concede,
because they were simply charged with the enormous crime of
giving a good education to a few Irish Roman Catholic chil-
dren. ( Hear.) The question that they bad to decide that day
regarding these schools was one of great importance. The
council stood in a responsible situation, he contended, with re-
gard to these schools, and the effect to be produced by its
decision would be considerable. He had no doubt their oppo-
nents were anxiously watching what that decision would be :
that decision would be watched through the length and breadth
of Ireland. Let them look at the state of that country at the pre-
sent moment—let them contemplate its writs of rebellion where
the tithes were got.in, and tell him whether the establishment in
that country had any popularity to spare. He would ask the mem-
bers of the council at the present moment whether it was wise and
discreet in them to deprive them of the addition of education in
the schools? They were in a predicament when it was wise to
conciliate—to do all that laid in their power, as individuals, to
soothe the feelings of irritation, which but too justly existed in
the minds of the Irish people in relation to this country. It
behoved them to show attention to every mode of conciliating
religious differences, and he contended they could do so in this
instance with perfect consistency. Was it not infinitely better
that these schools should remain open, and accessible to the
catholics, that, When the poor peasant, driven from that
land, came accross, and set his foot on our shores—goaded, per-
haps, by some tithe process—was it not desirable that there
should exist one institution to which he could go without being
told that he was a proscribed man, and cast out of society, be-
cause be professed au erroneous faith ?—that he could go to
such an institution, instead of being frowned away as an alien
in language, and religion? He .must advert for a single mo-
ment to the proposal brought forward by his friend. His ob-
jection to the non-adoption of that course was, that they should
be establishing strictly sectarian schools, on the principles for-
merly adopted—schools which would excite strong opposition.
And they would be exclusive schools. His second ground of
objection was, that he gathered front the whole tenour, and
course of the present schools, that they were not sectarian—
that they were open to protestants, and Church of England pro-
fessors might attend them, and obtain all the advantages of
bible reading as effectually as in the schools which formerly
existed. On that, he contended, the whole issue depended, and
he contended that, these schools were strictly neutral, and
freely open to all denominations. Such were some of the views,
and feelings by which he had been actuated in standing forward
as the humble, and unworthy advocate of these schools. Such
were some of the hopes in which lie had ventured to indulge
concerning their future usefulness to this great population, and
to this great country. It depended on the votes of the mem-
bers of the coucil on that clay, whether these hopes were to be
realized or not. To the refarters of that couneil he appealed
for their vote. On them depended whether these schools shou!d
be continued or not, and be knew they would not disappoint
him. He knew that they would nut, cowed by the malignant
howl of faction, shrink, and come down from the lofty elevation
(its whets they stood. He sat down in the perfect confidence of
their votes—he sat down confident that they would have the
admiring view of the empire turned towards them fur the noble
example they lied set of philanthropy, and patriotism, and of
enlightened christianity. (The honourable member sat clown
amidst loud applause, to which Mr. Alderman Stuart mainly
contributed, by vehement clapping of hands.)
Mr.- Councillor RATHBONE said he was quite aware, after this
very brilliant, and, to his mind, powerful and logical address, of
the disadvantages he laid under in bringing before them dry
details of facts. lie had put these facts into writing, because he
was aware they would be criticised—not according to their in-
tention and meaning, but according to verbal criticism. [Mr.
Councillor Rathbone then proceeded, with great rapidity and
some indistinctness, to read his speech. The reading of this
speech was precisely what the speaker had predicted it. name-
ly, a very "dry" affair. From the rapidity and indistinctness
with which it was spoken the reporters gave up the attempt of
taking notes, and the council appeared to pay very little atten-
tion to it. We have, however, copied the "authorised version"
from the second edition of the Telegraph, to which paper we
have reason to believe the manuscript was furnished.] The
written speech begun, "In seconding the amendment of my
friend Mr. Blackburn, which I do most cordially, it is not n
intention to trouble you with a long reply to the circular ad-
dressed to you by the Rev. Hugh 111`Neile, as d have only a few
facts to oppose to his long columns of suppositious. The reso-
lution past by the Education Committee on the 15th of June,
was to set -apart certain hours " for the formation of Bible
classes; and other religious instruction." On the sth of Jnly
the hours for religious instruction were changed ; but as the re-
solution merely altered the hours, the nature o the religious
instruction was not again specified. Whether the resolution
passed in Council specified the Bible classes particularly, I do
not remember; if not, it was an omission; but the intention
..has been clearly stated too often tobe misunderstood. So much
for our rules—our practice I will give hereafter. The second
position is supported with a similar inattention to the laws of
evidence, and refers to what Lord Stanley has written on the
Kildare-street Society, not choosing to meet the fact of what the
Board themselves have declared to be their intention, and the
provision they have made to carry that intention into effect.
The preface to the selections, and fur which a Protestant Arch-
bishop, of piety and leaining, -is responsible, especially declares
that the object of the selections is to promote the reading of the
Bible. In addition to this, the Board provides hours for reli-
gious instruction, which instruction common candour might
have led a Protestant Clergyman to suppose a Protestant Aich.
bishop would not consider complete without the use of the Bible,
even had it not been declared that the selections had this object
in view. The following are the rules of the Irish Board on this
subject :-
3d Head.—Regulations of the schools as to tuition, &c.
Rule 1. Such extracts from Scripture as are prepared under
the sanction of the Board, ivay be used, and are earnestly re-
commended by the Board to be used doting those hours allotted
to this ordinary school system.
2. One day its each week (independently of the Sunday) is
to be set ripest for the religious instruction of the children, on
which day such parsons or other persons as are approved of by
the parents or guardians of the children, shall have access to
them for that purpose, whether those parsons have signed the
original application or not.
3. The managers of schools are also expected, should the
parents of any of the children desire it, to afford convenient op-
portunity and facility for the same purpose, either after or be-
fore the ordinary school business (as the managers may deter- I
mine), on other days of the week.

to them, and who were their natural eheinles, and uffeud those
who constituted the very sinews of their strength. ( Hear.) lie
had hizhertu viewed this argument with relatiuu to numbers as
something based on a solid principle; but he did not consider
this argument based on a solid principle at all. Ile did not
consider that gentlemen who took seats in that room, as repie-
sentatisies of different constituencies, came there as de-legates,
as automatons, as unreasoning representatives of the opinions
of others. -tie contended that this was not.a correct theory of
representation at all; it was impracticable; for, in order to
carry out this system, they must poll out every member of the
constituency on every question that would arise. A man who
came there as a representative, came there because the person
who chose him had confidence in his integrity and judgment;
and he came there authorized and entitled to force his own
judgment on every question that came before him, and to act
on- that judgment. (" Hear," from Mr. Councillor El. Smith )
• They were not _intended to go there in slavish submission to
their constituents. He had already contended, and he trusted
successfully, that the majority were with them. He entertained
that opinion most firmly front an inquiry pretty extended as to
the state of public opinion,,. But, were it otherwise—were it the
fact—and were they assured of it—that the majority of the peo-
ple of the town were opposed to those schools—he did not see
why they should concede to their abolition. The question was,
were these schools useful, and valuable, and calculated to pro-
mote the best interests of the coinuittnity ? And, if they could
satisfy themselves on-that point, their course was clear—their
ditty was plain and obvious—it became their duty to vote for
their continuance, be the Consequences what they might. And
a man was unworthy of a seat in that council•room who was not
prepared to say—" -Farewell to office and farewell to power, if
they could not be maintained with consistency to principles
based on justice!" The second argument which had been
rested much on was the fact asserted by the councillor for
Castle-street, but not proved, that the schools were sectarian.
After all, he did not know whether he regarded them as secta-
rian in their very principle and nature, or whether he considered
them as having become co in point of fact from the state of feel-
ing and practice of the town. lie should beg to offer au obser.
vatiou or two ou both these positions; and, first, as to the fact.
There were at present in the schools connected with the cor-
poration about 1,300 children. In the whole of that number he
believed he might assume (and he was under the mark) that
250 were protestant and IWO Roman Catholic children—a very
goodly proportion of protestants. When they considered the pe-
culiar circumstances of the case—he granted that the dispropor-
tion was very considerable—but when they considered the
circumstances, it was not so great as might have been expected.
He begged to call to their recollection the circumstances which
existed when first these, schools had been called into existence.
When they were first opened, they had. not a single individual
in the schools to direct them. The individuals who had previously
had the management of them gave up ►heir management a day
or two before they wet° opened, and they had not the slightest
assistance. In addition to this, the individuals who had previous-
ly conducted the schools wore immediately installed into situa-
tions of a similar kind in the neighbourhood Where they had
existed, and they used every art to draw children away by re-
presenting the schools as popish schools; and placards were
stuck about, signed by clergymen, calling upon the people not
to go
.to them, and holding out the prospect and inducement
that some Would, alieedily be opened under the management of '
the teachers, and, in addition to this,
"The pulpit, drum ecclesiastic"

resounded against them. And, in addition to all this party op-
position, a most violent excitement took place in the immediate
neighbourhood ofthe schools—an excitement so violent amongst
the vulgar rabble that it was found necessary to call in the aid of
the police before the children could get safely to the schools;
and it was not till an individual had been brought before the ma-
gistrates at the police-office that anything like quietness was
obtained. To say that under such circumstances as these the
number of 250 children of protestant parents had attended them
was a great triumph of the principles they had maintained.
He maintained that it was a fair evidence and a decisive proof
that if they would only persevere the time was not far distant
when their popularity would far increase and a fair number of
both denominations of christians would attend them. So far
was it from the truth, that the establishment of these schools
was a complete failure, that the very opposite was the truth,
and it might be asserted that the effort to put them down and to
excite prejudice against them had of itself completely failed.
Another question of more importance was the principle—" were
they or not sectarian in their essential character ?" Now, they
would bear in mind that they were produced in Ireland for the
very purpose of providing an education fur all the people—in
which both protestant and catholic might, without any compro-
mise of principle, be educated; and the question simply was
this—" Does that system provide a means of education and a
Man of general instruction in which protestants and Roman
catholics may join without any compromise?" That was the
fair question ; and he maintained that these schools did present
a system iu which protestants and catholics might participate
without the slightest compromise. (" Hear, bear," from Mr.
E. Smith.) That was the question.. Upon the question,
whether the protestant children had or had not the free use of
the authorised version of the Bible, such as protestants ought to
require, or not? He would treat this on a simple ground.
Let them first inquire what it was protestants ought to require.
Surely they ought to be satisfied with the peculiar enjoyment of
the scriptures. Surely protestants would not say that they had
a right to make their consciences the standard of all other
men. They would not say, he apprehended, that they were
entitled to demand that every man should think precisely as
they did ? If this were demanded—if this were a matter of
conscience, and if that were called protestantism, then all
compact was at an end. But he considered that this argument
was not worthy of the smallest attention. Then as to the fact
that protestant children had not the free use of the Bible in
these schools. Facts had been declared that day which render-
ed it unnecessary for him to make any statement on this subject.
It was a question of fact of which every man might be satisfied
if he pleased. He would tell them them that the Bible was
used for one hour of every day iu the week—that the schools
were open, and surely protestants ought to be satisfied with
this. It had been made a point against them that, in intro-
ducing the Bible into these schools, they had departed from the
system they had professed to have adopted, mid it had been en-
deavoured to shut them up in a dilemma by stating that they
bad not introduced the Bible, or, un the other hand, that they
had not introduced the Irish system. He denied both these
assertions. And, with respect to the system, he would maintain
in opposition that it was perfectly consistent both with the on-.
ginal plan presented to the nublic by Mr. Stanley, and it was the
actual practice of those schools in Ireland which were now adopt-
ing the system and used the scriptures. Was there not a very mate-
rial difference between enforcing the use of the Bible and prohibit-
ing it? Suppose he lied a hundred children, and he was to say
to them—" We do not make it a rule—we do not compel you
to read the bible, but we strongly recommend it to You to read;
and, if your parents are willing, facilities are provided for your
reading it." He did not in that case enforce the reading of the
Bible, but did he forbid it? (Hear.) The line of distinction
was most obvious. This was the distinction—the Irish system
did not prohibit the Bible—it (lid not forbid it, even to the
catholics it was trot prohibited but by the opposition of their
parents. And it was a fact, and he ventured to assert it in de.
fiance of all contradiction, that if, in these corporation schools,
conducted on this system, a Roman Catholic were to bring his
child, and say, " I have no objection to my child reading the
authorised version of the bible," there would be nothing in-
compatible with the system in that child mixing with the pro-
testant children, and reading the scriptures with them. They
had a right then to say that the bible was not excluded. He
trusted the principle would never be maintained in that council
of forcing the reading of the scriptures. That was not protes-
tantism, but persecution. (Hear.) In a letter which had been
addressed to that council, they had been endeavoured to be
placed in a dilemma ; on the one hand, of abandoning the
Irish system, or, on the other, of nut introducing the bible into
the schools. In that letter, was a letter from Mr. Stanley, to
the Duke of Lienster. There was one passage in it to which
be must beg leave to draw their attention. Speaking of the
Kildare Place Society, he says :—" The determination to en-
force in all their schools the reading of the holy scriptures,
without note or comment, was undoubtedly taken with the purest
motives, with the wish at once to connect religious with moral
and literary education, and, at the same time, not to run the
risk of wounding the peculiar feelings of any sect by cateche-
tical instruction, or comments which might tend to subjects of
polemical controversy. But it seems to have been overlooked
that the principles of the Roman Catholic church (to which,
any system intended fur general diffusion throughout Ireland,
the hulk of the pupils must necessarily belong) were totally at
varinace with this principle; and that the indiscriminate read-
ing of the holy scripture, without note or comment, by children,
must be peculiarly obnoxious to a church which denies, even to
adults, the right of unaided private interpretation of the sacred
volume with respect to the articles of religious belief- Shortly
after its institution, although the society prospered and extended
its operations under the fosterieg care of the legislature this
vital defect began to be noticed, and the Roman Catholic clergy
began to exert themselves with energy and suceess against a
system to which they were on principle opposed, and which
they feared might lead in its results to proselytism, even al-
though no such object wet e contemplated by its promoters."
Now, that determination to enforce the reeding of the scrip-
tures was the cause of the failure of the Kildare Place Society.
He says, "'The vital defect of the Kildare-place Society was
the indiscrimate reading of the bible in school hours." No, the
vital defect was the determination to enforce its reading. There
was something apparently disingenuous in this. There was the
leaving out of the subsequent argument, which constituted the
very essence of the letter—the determination to enforce, not the
leaving out; and, therefore, it was with a view to put an end to
this state of things that the new system was adopted, and it was
found• to be all that was necessary. A great stress, he was
aware, was laid in this letter on the terms " school hours;"
they were told that the bible was not read in "school hours;"
and, taking the resolution of the council for a guide, there was
some plausibility in that. Perhaps it would have been wise if
the council had used such a term as "general school hours"—
something to have conveyed the idea that there were other
school hours—plain and simple language to convey a plain and
simple idea. But they had not expected or 'prepared for the
slsubtlety s
hhe hot, af tetphtuherejpr
publicobosi peononents, when they saw the effect that had
been produced by the use of the ingenious term of "school
d
hours." By the cautious use of that term it passed for the as-
sertion
mind,
deluding was not
anti,us eaidnnadct
(oat
tell anddeceiving
%u.ienigtirci
tealdi thatfp uthb
that,
H
raeisle.
in❑ on
He-
would -
1 se
hood tiitna(e
answered all
andal thedecpeui
pal-
pable
escape,
°ef
paudbilriece.a aAnudd.et
there was preserved a loop-hole of
because when the
bible was strewn to them as taught in the schools, it served them
to say—" Oh ! but it is not in the school hours." The age of
pious frauds had not yet passed away, and at that rate they must
not dare to say " What is in a name ?" for a name was every
thing; for, although
" A rose by any other name would smell as sweet,"
bible instruction was not of any value, unless it 'were taught in
"school hours." (Loud cheers.) lie Avoid(' not detain them
by such contemptible arguments. 'Phis letter concluded in a
style of-denunciation. It unist con,tince every .gentleman who
sat in that council, that the divine judgments were not at the
disposal of the writer of it. lie ~oppo,ett, if they were, he for
one, and all who sat in that cumuli who dared to think differ-
ently, would fall under the writer's ban. The •
re subject was too
solemn to be dwelt upon; but no man could read that letter—
no sensible man of sound judgment—without being constrained
to abhor the infamous persecution which it breathed—thus to
hurl the thunderbolts of omnipotent vengeance, nut against Ihe
despisers and contemners of God's holy word, but against the
supporters of a system of education which came to them sanc-
tioned and recommended by the approbation or some. of the
greatest and best men that ever adorned the church. He elm-
tended, then, that neither in point of fact, nor vet in point of
principle, were these schools sectarian schools. He contended,
that they were open to ail classes of the community, without
any exception,
and without any compromise of principle;
and let a man have any religion or no religion, lie was at per-
fect freedom to have his children educated in These seminaries
without departing in the slightest degree from the prindipies he
entertained. (Loud cries of bear, hear.) It was on this ground
that be admired it,—this was the excellenc-
y and glory of that
system,—that • it cut the gordian knot on a subject that intro-
duced a gordiau knot,—it got rid of their difficulties, and in this
way,.---while it provided religious instruction for all, it forced it
on hone,—it dealt with individuals in such a eia..ner, that it
left every man free, and it tendered to hint, at. the tzame time,
a valuable education for his children. arlit been a fact that
not tine single Protestant child had entered those schools up to
that hour, grounded on principle he would trot have given his vita

4. Any arrangement of this description that may be made is
to be publicly notified in the schools, in order that those Chil-
dren, and those only, may be present at the religious instruc-
tion,
whose parents and guardians approve of their being so.
5. The reading of the Scriptures, either in the authorised or
Donal,' version, is regarded as a religious exercise, and, as such,
is to be confined to those times which are set apart for religious
instruction. The same regulation is also to be observed regard-
ing prayer.
Lord Stanley speaks.of the determination "to enforce the read-
ing of the
Scriptures," " without note or comment" as the
vital defect" of the Kildare-street society. The Irish Board.
think it wiser " to promote" " strongly recommend," and pro-
vide hours for the Bible to be read, When the clergy may give
their own comments. Perhaps, with our national jealousy of
compulsion, particularly in religious concerns, they may not be
mistaken in their view of the likeliest means of promoting
scriptural education. The next paragraph, like those before,
is suppesiti.us—opoused to facts. I stated that certain means
bad been found 'successful " infirmly imptanting religious prin-
ciple" in the Children of each corrupt parents. If this is not
au. in waid and spiritural change," (lo not know what is. I
leave without ct,rnment both what he assumes as being neglect-
ed ht•cau:se not inserted in- my letter, and the consequence of

1t136.

that neglect denounced again. 4 tic• schools, as a spe4tuen Or Ili% 1 if) oUr 9,),,i.;/,?? 'it ~ I .sae oar 2n;nlstyrs Pan scarceittmain lain Mei,:
candour and etiaree, . 'l' he ,)ext earag raptt is already answered : : v.,lf ~, :,-,•,,,:,,, ;.!,:c ;,.;,,,•ipt, is Cl')! reeolni,e.l. 111/4ttb,t tvries :,ir
the selectious ase not latesolea or used as suhstitutes, but as ea- i cy,y,, t„-, 1i,,,n5L, Sit ,lieul ;,.,,,i,. becaew CtiS great rincit!fri
OCU O1gC111(10 LS Or aid., To the reaeing of the Bible. As the I weees. e; seteue„, e.,,„, ,sesejee,:eesie..,..„ in ",a[ salvia remeeei;Leset
children are ail taught by t w
heir on clergymen, apart fruits the is riot reea A
taited by them. Dina. though i
tLe nisei adopted i 1
rest, Ido not see how one set readin.g the Whale Bible can in- the Irish sy,tem is the best ,!1* all others, yet as tp he nioney iu ,1111-1”
terfere with another set reading- only half. The rev. gentleman .of these schools is taken out el theentblic purse, and Jews, and Ca-
asks hew religious instruction is " secured," and seems to i tholics, and Protestants, have all contrib.sled ; to take out ~ f this
glory in the shame that we cannot secure the clergy doing 1 fund.br the support of Me sehools—the principle itself is unjust'
their duty to our protestant children. If this be a subject of Aed it is this its elf that causes the anarchyand confusion that now
rejoicing with him, he is welcome to it. In the South Corpora- exists in the go'Gi 'meat, and ought, notwithstanding the recent-
tion Schools we have one (lrawback to his gratulations on this mendatione—the just recommendations that had been given 10 1"
point,
for there a clergyman of the Church of Eugland does his I re/torch/ relating to the schools o/' this corporation—yet lam per-
duty fearlessly and zealously. We are grateful to him for his sanded yon will not pacify the inhabitants of this town—you will
aseteranco, we respectfully seek the assistance of others, but if nee conciliate them universally, becattoe you are not niCo9llifing
refused, we will endeavour to train up the protestant children the
.first principle to. which I have already alluded. ' (I,°"
in the way the parents (to whom the responsibility legally as cries or . (2,,.„„i0„.., , I shall now beg leave to read the
well as rightfully devolves) wish them to go. Ido not wish to the amendment which I have to make on this subject :--,--
undervalue the services of the clergy, but if they stand aloof it s' That the Council Are most anxious that all the children of the
shall he our aim nut to neglect our duty to our protestant poor in this town should \V enjoy, to the fullest exte,O, the pal'ar
brethren.e may hope, with the blessing of Providence, our mount blessings of education, and they would gladly avail
labour will not be in vain, and may recollect for our encourage- themselves of the corporate funds in furtherance of this great
meet, under their oppositiou, that every effort for the spread of and beneficent object, were it possible to do so without violatiuge
the Bible or the education of the poor has been at first opposed the sacred rights of property, and sapping the foundation of
by the ;;neat body of the clergy. The next charge is where I justice, both moral and divine; •but, as guardians of the public
bring rhe Bible and Bridewell in opposition. The rev. dis- purse, this Council can never consent, even for the attainment
putant prudently states that he is ashamed to argue against of so great a public blessing, to take from funds the trust pro-
such a charge. The next is a personal matter, and is easily perry of all denominations, the means of Maintaining any sp."
settled. The rev. denunciator, claiming more than the infalli- tern of education Ohatever, which, in its practical effect would
bility of the catholic church, judges motives, and speaks of rny be partial and exclusive in regard to the benefits it might confer
having taught the Church Catechism "as a principle of expe- on any community. They will, therefore, forthwith offer these
diencv, supetseding•practially the principles of conscience and school-rooms, at a reasonable rent, to any individual or society
truth." I never saifl, as he would make it appear, that I who will engage to afford a comparatively gratuitous educe-
taught as truth " what I believed to be f4sehood and idolatry." tiun to the poor children of this town on equally liberal
I never had the presumption to state tharl thought the worship principles with thOse which 11,vt. 1.:,-.:.; reoently established by
of Inv Trinitarian fellow-Christians was idolatry. In these this council in these school-rooms, ~,,i,.!-. the right of inspection
matters I own no human controul, and seek none over others- of a committee appointed by the council to see that the
The members of the council will remember that I distinctly object of diffusing education amongst the poor is attained.-
stated I had heard the children their catochisms, simply My object, I hope, has been clearly understood. I say that this
requiring the words of the book where I did not agree with it, Council may set a noble example of justice and upright ices anioilgst
and endeavouring to enforce and illustrate it where I did. her fellow-men; and I shall he exceedingly proud if this great and
My principle is, that the responsibility-rests with parents, as to noble town was the first to announce to the world as regards its
the peculiar religious faiths ill which their children are to be righteous views to all our fellow-men."
educated; that my duty, as a member of a committee for the The Meyoit inquired if any one seconded Mr. Lawrence.
manag,etnent of schools paid for, and belonging to, all sects, is Ilepverth's resolution ?
to see that the wishes of parents ate fulfilled, and, under no No one, however, rose to second it, and the amendment con-
pretence whatever, to interfere with those wishes. This leaves sequently fell to the ground.
a sufficiently heavy responsibility, and. appears to sue the line Mr. Councillor Leasers. begged to offer a few remarks in
of conduct most consistent with my views of the weakness and support of the aineudtnent. [Mr. Lassell then proceeded to
frailty of erring man. Mr. M`Neile in his closing paragraph, read a speech. which, like the previous one of Mr. leathbone's,
declares his willingness to acknowledge his errors, if convinced appeared to be little attended to by the council. We give the
he is wrong. Leteme ask why, previous to writing his letter, "authentic version" of this also, the manuscript of which was
he did not go to the schools and learn for himself what is the sent for insertion in the second edition of the Telegraph.] "He
fact respecting the schools, of which he has spoken and preach- had neither read nor heard any arguments which would induce
ed so much; mid even now, as far as I know, he has only been him to vote that the schools be disposed of. On the contrary.
to one of them, and not to the South School, where he might he trusted the council would not abandon the patrouAge of edu-
have met a pastor of his own Church, and learned from him the cation in this town, which they had enjoyed for nearly three
real state of things. lie might, perhaps, have satisfied hjm- centuries. Since the year 1565 the corporation of Liverpool
self and those friends he so modestly styles "the Protestant in- had contributed (a, the support of a free school until the death of
tilligence" of the town of Liverpool, that their " scriptural pre- the late toaster, which happened in 181)5, and then the site of
dilections" needno longer "array them in hostility" to the the school-house being wanted for the enlargement of the Blue
schools. Our present concern is not, however, Geuteeinen, what Coat Hospital, the building was demolished. At that time the
is the Irish plan of education, nor whether our schools are real education of the poor had not so many advocates as it has nowe
Irish schools, hut what is the Liverpool Corporation plan of edit- and no steps were taken till 1825 to replaee that school with any
cation? What are its schools? Shall they be continued ? If other; but owing to the gradual progress of ()Pinion the council
they are continued, shall they he on the present plan ? The determined to erect the schools which are now in existence.
present plan is to make religious and moral training, not teach- The exclusive constitution of the old council was a sufficient
ray; our first object. To give the best general education, both reason for the exclusiveness of the schools; but times were .
intellectual and moral, with reference to their future prospects changed. They have descended to us as trustees for apublic
m
in life, till the last of the school-hours each day, and devote that benefit—even those who oppose the syste adopted in the
last hour partly to peculiar religious instruction, under their schools concede the principle, that they can no longer be exclu-
respective ministers; partly to general religious instruction, sive. All systems of education which are not based on religion
under the teachers of the schools; and thus to make the schools are decried throughout the land; they are denounced from
the
desirable to all,—and they are desirable, and desirable by, both bench and from the pulpit, and he humbly coincided with the
Catholic and Protestant. In the South School, to which sub- general voice. It was to meet this feeling:that the'lrish system
committee I belong, our numbers are in the had been established. It had been stated that it had prsived
Girls' school.—Protestant.. 70 abortive. He found, however, that in the report of 1834—
Catholic.... 144—T0ta1..214 [Mr. L. here read the first report of the Commissioners for Edo-
Boys' school.—Protestant.. 63 (sating the Poor of Ireland.] On this report, published by order
Gatholic....lsl—Total..22l of parliament, he was more disposed to rely than upon the asses-
Is this a Sectarian, or exclusive school ? The sub-division of tions of individuals, who, with strong prejudices, looked at the
the Provident District Society in which that school stands con- abuses which cannot but creep in rather than to the benefits
tains 28 families, visited by the society; of these 15 are Catho- which are sure to be conferred. They were told that their ma-
lie, 5 Protestant, 2 mixed, 6 unknown. When we consider the terials would not amalgamate—that was a strong word—they
large proportion of our poor population, which is (hipbone, and associated. They.lead in the South School 130 protestants and
the large provision which is made for Protestaut education, we 300 catholics associated together in the perusal of the scripture
must admit we have our full share of Protestants, notwithstand- lessons as ffirnished by the board. He found in this repott—
ing the unscrupulous clamour, by which it was sought to deter 'These selections are offered, not as a substitute for the sacred
them from entering our schools. They have been called Ca- volume itself, but as an introduction to it, in the hope of their
thnlic Schools. 'The Committee, the masters and mistresses, are leading to a more general and profitable perusal of the Word of
all Protestant, and a considerable proportion of the scholars. God. The passages introduced have been chosen, not as being
It is true, that the Catholic children receive instruction front -of more importance than the rest of the Scriptures, but merely
their own ministers during one hour of the day. Does this con- as appearing to be mast level to the understandings of children
stitute them Catholic schools? What is the religious instruc- and youth at school, and also best fitted to be read under the
tion given ? Again, I must speak from the
.school .I know best. directions of teachers not necessarily qualified, and certainly
First, the Bible is' read by all Protestants, who can read every not recognized, as teachers of religion; no passage has either
day in the authorised version, either to the Rev. Mr. Aspluall, been introduced or omitted under the influence of any porticos
to a visitor, or to a teacher. Mr. Aspinall dessetes the first hair lar view of christianity, doctrinal or practical.
hour to the girls, the second half to the boys, every day. The 'Besides these works on the ordinary subjects of education,
other half hour is devoted to catechism, explanation of the col- we have compiled and printed two numbers of a series of les-
lect, hearing it and the scriptures committed to memory, in- suns from the holy Scriptures, one from the Old, and the other
struction in eastern manners, customs, &c., &c. The younger from the New 'Testament; and we propose to go on adding to
protestants have the same religious instruction in substance, them, until we complete a copious abstract of the narrative
varied iu manner according to their age. The catholics are, at parts of the Sacred Volume, interspersed with suitable pass-
the same time, in a different part of the room, receiving from ages from the peetical and didactic parts of it. We proceed on
their ministers instruction iu the Douay version of the bible or the undertaking will ;.iarfect unaniznity, and anticipate, from
catechism, or preparing for him under their own monitors ; or the general circulation of the work, the best results.'
else are joining in the general religious instruction under the Surely it was anticipating an evil which was not likely to
teachers of the school. 'Utley end by singing a hymn, in which happen,—that the little children would imbibe evil from read-
children, teachers, and ministers ofall denominations unite. In inc such lessons as those which had obtained the sanction of the
confirmation of what I have stated, I bee leave to read a note I threte Christian denominations, It had been so often stated that
have received from the Rev. James Lpinall, in reply to one the Bible was read, that it was not necessary now for him to re-
which I addressed to him : peat it. A very prejudiced man once asked if any good thing
'Mr DEAR SIR,---In your note of yesterday you ask me to could come out of Nazareth; and he was invited to come and
state to you, first, generally what portions of the scripture the . see, and examine the pupils for yourselves as to their Bible
protestant children have read with me at the South Corporation knowledge. He did not mean to say that this was the hest pos-
Schools, and secondly, to particularize what portion of the same sible system that might be devised ; but it came to them under
they have read, day by day, during the last week. the satiation of high authority, and let them have time to proee
• With regard to the first of these points, the children have whether it would answer their wishes or not. The applications
gone throulla with me the gospel according to St. Luke, and for admission to the South School, notwithstanding all opposi-
that according to St. John, and also the book of the Acts of the tion, were in the ratio of about twenty per week, and it would
Apostles. They are now occupied in reading the book of Gene- soon be filled; and he was confident that any imaginary evil
sis. of which they have nearly reached the close. • was more than counterbalanced by the positive "good which was
' With regard to your second question, the last week's reading obtained. Were the Council, he asked, aware whet these
has been as follows :—On Monday, the 41st chapter of Genesis; schools cost? Let them not then throw away .1144 V-sated!,
on Tuesday the 42d ; on Wednesday the 411; on Thursday the which were au honour to the town. Grant to their committees
, 44th; on Friday the 45th. It may be as well to add, thilt on their confidence for another year, and give them a fair chance
Monday, in addition to the scripture reading, they repeat and of success. If the schools became after all exclusive, alter the
are examined as to their understanding °foie collect of the pre- plan. He entreated the Council not to yield to the clamour
vious Sunday. On the other days they also read a portion of which had been raised, but steadily to persevere in the indepen-
the church catechism, or read in a little work entitled ''l'he dent course they had adopted, and the opposition would gradu-
manners and customs of the Jews,' which is of the greatest use ally subside.
in enabling them to understand many passages in the bible, the Mr. WALSISLEY said, after havingtaken much personal inter-
whole point and force of which depend on a thorough eompre- est in the management of these schools, lam not eontent, when
hensiou of these subjects. they are concerned, to give a silent vote, especially as I consider
Of course, the Scripture reading with me, to which I have the result of Your deliberations on the subject this (lay to be of the-
referred above, is entirely out of our authorized version of the utmost importauce to the rising generation. • Before coming to
Bible. I would also have it understood, that when I talk of the anv conclusion, it may be well to advert to the principle by
children reading such and such portions of Scripture, Ido not which the Council (wills the exception of seven of its members)
limit the phrase to mere reading. I inteud it to signify that it is a fete months ago, came to the unanimous determination of
explained to them as they go on, while they are examined as to throwing Olsen the Corporation Schools for the education of the
the proficiency which they have made, anti required to compare children of the poorer ,classes, and to bear in mind the injury
one passage with another, and to acquaint themselves most that would be inflicted on•so great a number of our fellovr-crea-
thoroughly with its contents, historical, doctrinal, anti moral. tures, by again permitting their portals to be closed against par-
It may not perhaps be forme to say so; but Ido hope and think titular sects. If I rightly understood your wishes, and I believe
I perceive in the children a manifest and decided improvement they were in accordance with my own, these schools being public
in their acquaintance with and understanding of the Scriptures; property, were to be applied in the manner best calculated to
so much so, indeed, that I cannot help fancying that it would conduce to the general good ; to the purpose of giving those
amply satisfy even those who are now the loudest in their oppo- n-ho were otherwise unable to obtain them (without distinction
sition to the schools, could they happily be induced to visit them, of sect or party) the inestimable blessings of educatiou ; none
and calmly and dispassionately examine and inquire into what were to be excluded. I would ask had any been excluded ?
has been accomplished in bestowing on the children that reli- Have not your wishes been carried fully and literally into effect?
gions and scriptural instruction of which they profess themselves Are there not at this moment children of various religious -de-
to be the eager and zealous champions.—Ever believe me to be nominations receiving those instructions which are calculated
' most truly yours, ' JAMES ASPINALL• to snatch them from the paths of vice, and lead them into those
`Abercrombie-square, Nov. 22, 1836.' of virtue? There are now in these schools 1300 children, mostly
I can only, in conclusion, again express the earnest wish, that of the very lowest order, and, if we may judge of the future by
in the moral and religious education of the people at least party the experience of the past, the change that has taken place
zeal or religious bigotry may not interfere. The field is sad- within the last few months, the general improvement in the
cfi ieutly wide to allow room for all; the results hitherto have morals and behaviour of the children, augur a benefit to societal,
1
been sufficiently discouraging to make- the most presumptuous equal to the most sanguine expectations. To your decision we
diffident in asserting that the way has yet been discovered in nilist hour, but consider, I entreat you, the result. of selling these
education to effect the religious and moral elevation of the peo- schools; it will be again to expose to vice and ignorance a great
pie; yet no one will deny. the all-importance of such a disco- number of these poor children, whose hopes and expectations
very. Those who are pioneers in this work in simplicity and you have been pleased to raise to better things. I trust you
sincerity are entitled to encouragement, and even if they fail, will riot blast these hopes, these reasonable expectations of the
must be useful as a warning to others." He was very much effects of christian charity. Sow not again the seeds of disunion
obliged to them for the kindness with which they had listened and hatred amongst those whom we have, endea youred to teach
to this, and. he begged to second Mr. Blackburn's amendment. to love and respect- each other! liemeniter that he who re-
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE HEYWORTH spoke as follows : tards the progress of intellect countenances crime, and is him:
Mr. Mayor and gent/men, though I have to propose an amendment self the greatest of criminals to a state ! Who are the com-
as°, and also on the original motion, as well as on all tire amend- plainants against the system adopted ? Those who are rich in
ments that are passed; yet I feel that in doing to I would not this world's goods! Those who have numerous schools at their
trespass for a moment on the time of the council, or disturb the good command ! Those who for years have, for the benefit of one
understanding which I hope prevails amongst the erajority er. she gen- sect, exacted the unwilling tribute from every other denomina-
t/emen in this council with regard to thee schools, wholly impressed Lion ! T
hose who have been the loudest in their revilings
as they are that they are most excellent in their nature. If I had ' against the ine
'
eorance of their Roman catholic brethren, -and
the powers of oratory of the areatest and most excellent men, I who should have' been the first to rejoice in the fact of the
would devote those powers to speak highly of these schools. lam sacred volume being introduced amongst them through the me-
happy to have heard a most excellent account el them from our diuna of these schools. Should political feelings or fear of losing
worthy friend Mr. Blackburn. He has been. eloquent on the sub- sonic popularity have any effect upon you, be assured they are
ject, Out he has not uttered one word in praise of these schools in delusive! Do you expect any abatement of --hostility by re-
which Ido not concur to the very fullest extent. It is my firm be- tracing your steps ? If so, you will be lamentably disappointed ;
lief that there never were schools instituted, either in this or any the opponents of reform will not hate you less, and the true
otter country, which were destined in their nature to produce so friends of liberty will despise you. You will throw another.
much general good effect as these schools are. Bursting as every powerful engine into the hands of the enemies to reform, and
word y*.tifr, Blackburn was with zeal on this subject, I say, if t you will blast the brightest hopes of the advocates of civil and.
possessed language still more potent, I would use it with full eject religious liberty.
to maintain the importance of these schools, as they now exist. I Mr. Councillor EGERTON Seim said, as the representative
would say more .if it were only io convince the gentlemen. here how of a large ward, comprising a neat body of the poorer inhabi-
deeply 1 ant enamoured of these schools. Bitt asT7tatie'an amend- tants of the town, he felt deeply interested in this question.—
meet to propose, 1 shall refrain. There may be good of every kind From what he had heard he had very confident anticipations
and of every character. But the object is not merelytehave good— that the result would be satisfactory. The question they were
we ought to have good to begin 'with—we ought to have good in its islet to consider was one of very great importance. In the first
legitimate principle—in its foundations of justice it ought to carry place, it was important to the Council, as regarded.theit own-
Out.ihe good, not only to the present generation, but to generations character and consistency; and, in the next place, it was one
of mankind yet to be born . and y. the schools he not founded on the of the most vital importance to numbers of poor children in the
solid basis eljustice, it will—the object we contemplate will be dif- town,—the children of about 60,000 inhabitants ! who, if not.
ferent to this view, and will, in time, become a nuisance, and, per- brought to some school of religious and moral education, would
traps, a preiudice to society. There is a mode of conveying instruc- become pests to society: and these persons weee of a class who
tien which is countenanced by revelation itself ---there is a mode of could not afford to pay any thing, even the moderate pittance
doing it which comes home to every moral feeling; and I regret proposed by Mr. Lawrence Heyworth. In the next place the
that this is the only omission that my learned friend. Mr. Black- subject was of importance collaterally. The cry which had
burn, has left out in his powerful argument on these schools. It is been raised against the schools was not confined to Liverpool.
the voluntary principle. And if that book, the Bible, be of any It was part of a system to bring the municipal act, and those
use at all, it is of me in directly us in all the pursuits of life in who supported it into contempt. It had been assumed in that
which we engage. Now, it haebeen clearly shown by every man room that the public voice was against them. He denied it,---
that has spoken on this subject to-day, that religion is intimately he onlywishedaoild taiinty h
eiterto leputatvon
feltthetietsht is and,nuty ,asifhteh e had
eventsaid .hbaed- - -
interwoven with the instruction we cast communicate to our fellows fore, he should
creatures. There is not an individual who has addressed us this made it necessary, to move that a month be allowed, to allow
[lay teeoeos not this combined object in view. Now, as we are all the public mind to speak on the subject. (Hear, sad cheers.)
Bible Christians, it behoves us therefore to look at these rules u•hich He had happened to be present at a meetipg,—and he was-
are laid down in the Scriptures for the regulation of our fellow- proud to say—a meeting of an incipient Operative Reform As-
nien. If we do not this—if we set the Bible aside, and adopt our sociation, and had heard souse very intellignnt speakers allude
own opinions, in-stead of the Bible as our guide, we then make ato the subject, and lie was convinced if they canvassed the town,
very serious departure from religion itself. 1 would point out the they would timid nine-tenths of the intelligent part of it in fa
passages whieh relate to this in the Bible. In the Pentateuch your of the system they were supporting. it would be exceed-
there is not an instance in which the voluntary principle is not ad- ingly wrong in him to attribute unworthy or unbecoming mo-
vised,
by which means knoudedgewas to he obtained. That lair- oyes to, such men as Messrs. Cropper. He knew them to be-
/page runs through the whole of the Levitical law. This is the excellent men in the distribution of their wealth, with which it
religious part of the subject. But there is amoral part.. We are had pleased God to bless them.; but he was sorry for a moment
to consider that the funds that support these schools are drawn from to find them going in the train of a man who called himself a
the purees el every denomination of Christians. In Liverpool the bosom friend of the forger M'Ghee. (Hear.) It was a political
corporate funds cannot be spent to favour anti party. Perhaps manceuvre—nothing more. The system of selections they de-
gentlemen would tell you they are not exclusive, because children cried was sanctioned by a Protestant Archbishop—a very eau:
go to these schools—there newt man—sanctioned by the Duke of Wellington, Peel, and
et' every denomination of Christians can
is no one prohibited. Abw, I know no school that has ever existed Stanley And gentlemen who said that this system was suitablen
yet that had not the same adeamtages and privileges ill. this respect. for Ireland, and not for lingland, made a most strange a
schools prohibited and prevented nouncement. It was like saying that these persons had lent
I never heard' that the Catholic
Protestants from attending them, though they were so; or that themselves to a compromise of Christianity, and that they had..
l'retes'ant schools prevented and prohibited the children. of Catho-
lics because they were so. I never heard of an exclusive school. Ealtl)gwlaendda. s'llteesawisinheldretolalslade"'
but by .hsnicmhewtheisngnoatbtnituft'cirscPrriopttensrteanretsi4a
What I now understand from an exclusive school is, where it does in lie would state that there was more Scripture reading
not prohibit children by the authoritY,
He took them to
thiehe7;say:ii„an/tiseef,tiviamt i under this than under any former system. He had himself been
exists in the breasts of parentsl",ich presents,,d,l brought up under a very orthodox parson.
eeedze„, their child,.,,, to the selseets. if buy ' point nut this de- i Church twice on a Sunday ; but on no other day
'n every attempt to feet? Because it is universal i . - i the Bible in the schools. The ltev. .Mr Monk, who was now
at all, while Miss- .
tiger for the public in the sn.eans y applying money which 1, left in
figuring in public, never introduced the Bible
with it-be
~ . / rises • and it cannot be said; without doing injus- . for of the Royal Institution. He had been taxed . ,
would he bear
IttiSt 10 irtlhrla h„ dies;
granted
bring;Bibles to school,
• /ed from our common ',attire, u.hether 1 look at this , lie knew that people had been desired to
:ice to parties, by !hose who are left in trust of public prop,- ay. .
am l'''''e" ' • bringing
,forward tie I never denied it—and ha took it for that it eas. true.
„„,„ee se; beginning la , e recoge Won of this its order to defeat the argument heh was then
a 4 been
use of.
that he had no occasion to
as
soil makinghe h
ti,, ,ii.'ret there (f. the po!ti,:itioi` tilbes -:).!,, parties h,lding a digerent told by a master not its the s
it. -I look (0 1-eland I see 'One person had brought a Bible tott
aet e prite,inle el doing justice to al/ oarties7.
ee,,,e from oarselees, ansisry ~c1e!.1,c7,1 :his reaw..l. V' I 10-i: bring it—they did not use it as a school-book, and his parents