The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-03-05 00:00:00

TIES FOR THE CUP.

Fingal beat Lottery, Sadler beat Gammon, Maiden Queen
beat Sly, Princess Royal beat Bewcastle Bet, .Bustard beat
Critic, Bloomsbury beat Lady, Cacciatore beat Britannia,
Helier-Skelter beat Castleacre.

WATERLOO PURSE.

Mr. Unsworth's b and w d Unknown beat Earl Talbot's g

d Tartarus.
Mr. Kearsley's w and r b Fly beat Marquis of Douglas's f

and w b Coquette.
'Mr. Reade's r b Ruby beat Mr. A. Graham's b d 0 Yes !
0 Yes! 0 Yes!
Mr. E. G. Hornby's bd b Harem beat Mr. James Bake's f
and w d Colonel.
Mr. W. Swan's w and b d Sirius beat Dr. Brown's bd d
Sweeper.
Mr. Eden's f d Echo beat Mr. Wardlow Ramsay's fd Racer.
Mr. Craven names b d Erico beat Mr. King's b d Mat.
Earl of Stadbroke's b b Minerva beat Mr. Perkin's r d Bur-
ford.

SECOND DAY,—THURSDAY.
TIES FOR THE CUP.
Sadler beat Maiden Queen, Bloomsbury }Tat Helter-skel-
ter, Bloomsbury beat Sadler, and won the Cup.
TIES FOIL THE PURSE.
Unknown beat Ruby, Minerva beat Sirius, Unknown beat
Minerva, and won the Purse.
THE ALTCAR STAKES.
FIRST TrEs.—Mr. William Wood's 'Will-o'tb'-Wisp
beat Mr. Goodlalce's My Granny ; Earl of Eglinton's Water-
loo beat Mr. Wardlaw Ramsay's Raleigh ; Mr. Reade's Tra-
veller beat Mr. Craven's Camelite ; Mr. Swan's Sandy beat
Mr. Robert; Gale's Grasper ; Earl of Stradbroke's Whi-
rl
pool beat Earl Talbot's Testa ; Mr. Eden's Gipsey beat Mr.
Williamson's Halkin ; Mr. Blundell's Busy beat Mr. Bold
Robinson's Cob Coal ; Mr. P. Houghton's Tyrant beat Dr.
Brown's Whistler.
SECOND TIES.—Earl of Eglinton's Waterloo beat Will-
o'th'-Wish ; Mr. Swan's Sandy beat Mr. Reade's Traveller ;
Mr. Eden's Gipsey beat Whirlpool; Mr. P. Houghton's
Tyrant beat Mr. Blundell's Busy.
DECIDING COURSE.—EarI of Eglinton's Waterloo beat
Mr. P. Houghton's Tyrant and won the stakes.

ABSTRACTION OF THE ECCLESIASTICAL RE-
, VENUES OF NORTH WALES.

A public meeting was held on Tuesday evening in the
Welsh Charity School, Russellpstrect, for the purpose of I
taking into consideration the propriety of petitioning the
Queen, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and the two
houses of Parliament. against the intended union of the
dioheses of St. Asaph and Bangor, and the abstraction of the
ecclesiastical revenues of North Wales. The meeting was
nuMerously attended. There were present the Rev. Robert
Da'vies, incumbent of St. David's Church;the Rev. Henry
Jones, vicar of Northop, the Rev. Hugh Jones, incumbent
of Bagilit, the Rev. David James, incumbent of St. Mary's.
Kirkdale, the Rev. Thomas Pughe, curate of Tremerchion,
an the Rev. Thomas S. Bowstead ; also, Messrs. J. B.
Cibugh, Thomas Barber, Richard Griffith, Ellis Jones,
Robert Bevan, Thomas Roberts, Dr. Hughes, Owen Wil-
liams, David Evans, Robert Wynne, John Price. John
Richards, John Jones, W. C. Davies, Edward Roberts, S. .
Moss. &c. &c.
On the motion of Mr. THOS. ROBERTS, seconded by Mr.
ROBERT BEVAN, JAMES BUTLER CLOU GII, Esq. was
called to the chair.
The CHAIRMAN rose and said—However flattering it must
be to my feelings, and I confess it is not a little so, to have
been called upon to take the chair on this very important oc-
c*.ion, I assure you I comply with the call under great re-
lutance, and only in respectful obedience to your wishes, for
I fear "you have sadly over estimated my ability to do justice •
to your choice, as I am but too conscious of being deficient
in tact, talent, and experience for a proper discharge of the '
duties lam undertaking. Nevertheless, as it has been your
good pleasure to place me in this position, I will not shrink
from the duties it involves, though I shall have to draw
largely on your indplgence and support in nay endeavours to
perform them. It now becomes part of my duty to lay be-
fore you as briefly as possible.the business of the evening.
The public announcements under which we are assembled
will have informed you generally of the objects we have in
view ; which are, I may be allowed to say, of vital import-
ance to the religious and moral welfare of our fellow-coun-
trymen in North Wales. They are in some degree of a two-
fold character, involving t:ie question of a petition to the
Queen, to her Majesty's Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and
to both houses of Parliament—first, for the repeal of an act
already passed, and secondly, for the prevention of one about
to be brought forward shortly. The act already passed has
decreed, as you are probably aware, the union of the two di-
oceses of St. Asaph and Bangor at no distant period, depen-
dent on the lives of the two venerable prelates who now adorn
those sees ; so that on their demise, there shall be one bishop
only for North Wales, thereby abolishing one of the most
sacred, ancient, and venerated institutions in the princi-
pality ; while the act about to be passed contemplates the
abstraction of all the surplus revenues of the church in those
dioceses, arising from the effects of the previous act and
other sources in Wales, for the endowment of some English
bishopric, and for other purposes under the controul of the
ecclesiastical commissioners, without any regard to the ex-
igencies of the church itself throughout Wales, which have so
long been matter of such notoriety. These, gentlemen, will
form the subjects for your discussion this evening. They are
fraught with considerations of the highest interest to our
country and our clergymen ; but as it is not within my pro-
vince, occupying the chair, to expatiate on their merits, I
must leave that to other and abler hands, and have only to
express a hope that those gentlemen who intend to address
the meeting will be good enough to confine their observations
as closely as possible to the two points I have alluded to, as
being those only we are called upon to discuss this evening.
Mr. RICHARD GRIFFITH, after expressing his hearty con-
currence in the objects of the meeting, moved the following
resolution :—" That this meeting, holding it to be the great
and fundamental principle of a Christian legislature to in-
crease and not diminish the advantages of spiritual instruc-
tion, respectfully remonstrate against the union of the bishop-
rics of St. Asaph and Bangor, which, by placing the whole
district of North Wales under the superintendence of one
prelate, would have the effect of removing the clergy gene-
rally to a greater distance from their diocesan, thereby ob-
structing that personal intercourse so desirable between the
bishop and his clergy, and depriving many local charities of
that support which is at present afforded them." (Applause.)
The Rev. ROBERT DAVIES rose with great pleasure to
second the resolution. It was one, he said, of immense im-
portance, and one also to which he could not by any possibi-
lity conceive that any one really anxious for the advancement
of Christianity could possibly find an objection. The reso-
lution seemed to divide itself into three particular portions.
The first was, " That this meeting holds it to be the great
and fundamental principle of a Christian legislature to in-
crease and not diminish the advantages of spiritual instruc-
tion." Could there be a doubt as to the correctness of this
position ? , Could it be for a moment questioned ? Why,
then, was the thing ever mooted to unite the dioceses of
Bangor and St. Asaph? What was the necessity for it?
That appeared to be .the first question. The diocese of
Chester had been divided : a portion of that immense dis-
trict had been, or was about to be, given to Ripon ; another
portion was to be erected into a separate see at Manchester,
while the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor were to be united.
Why had this taken place? In consequence of the increase
of population.' The manufacturing districts of Lancashire
and Yorkshire had so amazingly increased in population as
to require additional churches, and consequently additional
pastors, and also increased the labours of the diocesan who
had to preside over those various. churches. He approved,
and had no doubt that all there present would readily ac-
knowledge their obligations to the legislature for what they
had done in this instance : it had ben indeed consistent
with the principle laid down in the resolution, inasmuch as
they had, in the diocese of Chester, increased and not dimi-
nished the advantages of spiritual instruction. (Hear.) He
hoped the meeting would bear this in mind with respect to
the case in Wales. Why had the legislature divided tha
diocese of Chester ? Because the increase of population and
the increase in the number of churches called for it. On the
other hand, why had they united the dioceses of Bangor and
St. Asaph ? Had the population of Wales decreased ? Had
the number of churches in Wales decreased ? Was it not
rather notorious that year after year the bishops of both
those dioceses were called upon to consecrate new churches ?
and was there not at this very moment a very great increase
of spiritual pastors, and of established churches, within the
principality ? (Applause.) That being the case, how could
it be made out that it was essential to increase the labours
of the presiding bishop by uniting the two dioceses, both in-
creasing as they were in population, and in the number of
the clergy ? (Hear, hear.) The thing was preposterous : it
shewed the fallacy upon which the legislature had proceeded.
If the principle he had pointed out as a portion of the reso-
lution was the true principle, the government, in passing that
law whereby the two dioceses were to be united in one when-
ever a vacancy took place, had, he plainly asserted, departed
from it. It was a principle that might be maintained in the
face of the whole world. (Applause.) This was matter
deserving of serious consideration. They had met to peti!
tion the legislature to repeal that act. Could it be supposed
that a legislature composed and elected of all the communi-
ties in the land, where we expected to see a generality of
principle, of talent, and of everything that could really con-
duce to the advantage and benefit of the country, would re-
fuse to consider a petition emanating from persons really
anxious for the spiritual and eternal welfare of the commu-
nity ? Could they look on with unconcern to the represent-
ations that meeting would make upon the necessity of repeal-
ing that act ? (Hear, hear, and cries -of " No.") It was
that, then, they petitioned Or : they were petitioning for the
repeal of an act already law.. And what were their hopes of
success? Their hopes rested upon the justice of their cause.
(Hear, and applause.) It might be desirable, perhaps, to
mention a circumstance which shewed the force of justice.
It was at one time intended to unite the diocese of Sodor
and Man with the diocese of Carlisle. The Bishop of

Sodor and Man, however, saw the wrong that would be
done, though not intended, to the diocese of Sodor and Man,
by coupling it with a diocese divided from it by so many
waters. He therefore left no stone unturned to prevent the
union ; he got up petition after petition, to the throne and
the parliament, against it, and he succeeded. (Hear, hear.)
He proved the necessity of maintaining the integrity of both,
and particularly of that sweet island being kept under the
superintendance of one spiritual pastor. (Cheers.) The
principle, then, which that meeting should advocate, should
be not the diminution of bishops but the increase of them.
(Hear.) Look at the example of other religious communi-
ties. They increased their superintendence as their congre-
gations increased. The Wesleyan body increased the num-
ber of their circuits if the congregations became greater than
the president of the district could superintend, and another
president was appointed. Why then should one of the
Church of England be shut out from the same advantage?
If our churches increased, and the labours of our bishops in-
creased, in consequence why not separate their dioceses ra-
ther than unite thmn ? (Hear, hear.) This principle was in
operation every where : he could prove that it was in opera-
tion in every religious community, and indeed in every com-
munity in the land. (Hear.) Every man,- whatever was
his position in society, as his labour increased required in-
creased help; and therefore, if the church was to go on with-
out more " heavy blows and great discouragements," her
members must contend for the number of her bishops to be
increased rather than diminished. (Cheers.) Here, then,
was the question—why was there a solicitude to diminish
rather than incresse the number of bishops? The only reply
he had heard to this question was a jealousy of increasing the
number of spiritual peers. But that effect was no: wanted :
there was no necessity for that jealousy. Afieady ten
bishoprics had been blotted out in Ireland, and there had
been no decrease in the number of spiritual peers; and if
they were re-elected to-morrow there would be no more spi-
ritual peers than there were at present. Let coadjutor or
sub-bishops be appointed if necessary, if there was no alter-
native but to increase their number; but do not throw addi-
tional responsibility upon hands which could not by any
means superintend it. The next point in the resolution was,
that the meeting respectfully remonstrated against the union
of the bishoprics of St. Asaph and Bangor, because it placed
the whole district of North Wales under the superintendence
of one prelate. (Hear.) Look at the importance of North
Wales; look at the position of the dioceses of Bangor and
St. Asaph; look at the mountainous nature of the country,
and the difficulty of access from one place to another, and
then say whether North Wales did not present a strong case
for an increase rather than a diminution in the number of
bishops. (Hear, hear.) Besides the clergy would be placed,
as• the resolution expressed, generally at a greater distance
from their diocesan, and thus the intended union would ob-
struct that pastoral intercourse which ought always to sub-
sist between a bishop and his clergy. He knew well, too,
that those individuals who lived in the vicinity of Bangor
were not now alive to the permanent injury that would be
done to them when the contemplated union took place ; and
that if the diocese of St. Asaph were subverted, the same
would be felt all through the whole vale of Clwyd. The only,
other subject connected with the resolution was the tendency
which the intended union would have to deprive the local
charities of a considerable portion of their funds. A bishop,
wherever he resided, had an income to expend, and it Nast
be spent in the neighbourhood of his residence. The schools
and hospitals in the vicinity must be supported, and fre-
quently they derived much of that support from the bishop.
Only imagine, then, the loss to public charities which must
arise from such a person, with an income of £4,500 per an-
num, being completely carried away. At present the bishop
must necessarily spend some part of his income in Wales,
and the meeting would be led from that circumstance to feel
the injury done to the principality by the abstraction of the
revenues of one bishopric. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he
hoped that such an united feeling, and such an united ex-
pression of that feeling, would be sent from Liverpool to Par-
liament, as would satisfy them that it was their duty, as the
representatives of the land, to repeal the law uniting the two
dioceses which they had inadvertently passed. (Hear, hear.)
The reverend gentleman then repeated the substance of his
speech in` the Welsh language, for the benefit of those who
could not understand him in English.
The Rev. T. S. BOWSTEAD rose to second the resolution.
Although he had no connection with the principality, he had
carefully studied its history ; be had also travelled on foot
from one end of it to the other, and was, therefore, perfectly
acquainted with its localities. On these accounts he felt a
deep interest in its welfare and prosperity. (Cheers.) He
also felt a deep interest in it upon the general principle on
which our own church was founded—namely, that its doc-
trines should be preached in the language which the people
understood. (Hear.) So long as the Welsh language was
a vernacular language, that language ought to be understood
both by bishops and clergy. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) If
they had not already been instructed in it, they ought to learn
the language ; and 'the clergy ought to preach in it from
house to house. (Loud cheers.) If the population of the
country had increased, were we, therefore, to diminish the
number of bishops? (Hear, hear, and cries of "no, no.")
The physical boundaries of the country were the same as they
had ever been ; nothing but an inundation could diminish
those limits—but even to the sea it had been said, "Thus
far thou shalt go, and no further." If the population of
Wales had absolutely increased, instead of diminished, where
was the reason for reducing the number of bishops ? (Cheers)

The division of labour was one of the best of principles the '
more we divided the pastoral superintendence into smaller
aisles, the more effectually did we promote its efficiency.
For a proof of the excellence of this principle, he would refer
to the District Provithint Society, in which it was invariably
found that the smallest districts were the best visited. How
could it be expected, for instance, that the Bishop of Bangor
could be perfectly acquainted with what was going on in
Flint? But if the ancient bishopric of St. Asaph, as well as
that of Bangor, were preserved, superintendence would be
sufficient. 'When he called to mind such men as Horsley and
Burgess, whose talents and piety were of the highest order,
and combined with the most profound learning, he must con-
fess that he saw with regret the intention of depriving Wales
of one of her ancient dioceses. Then, the taking away of
ecclesiastical funds from the princihality, to be given to a
place already rich, he considered not only impolitic but un-
just. (Hear, hear.) He had, as he had said before, no con-
nection with the principality, or any party in it; but, as the
only English clergyman present, he felt it his duty to testify
to the evils which would arise from the intended changes.—
The rev. gentleman then seconded the resolution, and re-
sumed his seat amidst great applause. On the resolution
being put it was carried unanimously.
Mr. BARBER moved the next resolution, which was as
follows :—" That this meeting considers the proposed ab-
straction of a portion of the ecclesiastical revenues from
North Wales as inexpedient and unjust, and strongly depre-
cates such a course, so long as many livings in the dioceses
of St. Asaph and Bangor remains inadequately endowed."
This appeared to him to be an exceedingly reasonable resolu-
tion, and he thought that it would so appear also to the meet-
ing. (Hear, hear.) It was but fair that the meeting should
ask who had come among them with his Saxon tastes and
Saxon tongue to propose this resolution? He would tell them.
So far as Liverpool was concerned, he belonged to the work-
ing classes. He had worked very hard—he did not know to
what purpose exactly—and was grateful to the town which
had sheltered him—and at all times be considered himself
bound to acknowledge it. So far as regarded the principality,
he was proud to say that he had some Welsh blood in his
veins, and that he was connected by birth and marriage with
one of its first families. These circumstances, he trusted,
would be accepted as his apology for his intrusion upon the
meeting that evening. Had the ecclesiastical commissioners
been empowered to re-distribute the funds of the church in
North Wales, he, for one, should not have been in that
ineeting—but, as they had authorised the abstraction of eccle-
siastical funds from the principality, he was there to exercise
his privilege of petitioning against it. (Hear.) Had it been pro-
posed to alter the sinecure livings, and give a portton of their
revenues to increase the Income of the poor ones, he should
not have been present. But as the legislature had autho-
rized the abstraction of funds from a comparatively poor
country like Wales, and the bringing of them into a rich
country like England, he chose to exercise his privilege of
petitioning against it. He had in his hand a table of the
average income of the livings in North Wales, which it was
but fair to read, to show the meeting how unjust was the
proposed abstraction from her ecclesiastical revenues. There
were only 18 with above £250. per annum ; 17 above £l5O.
and under £2OO. • 29 under £lOO. Land between 30 and 40
under the value of £5O. a-year. (Hear. hear.) With these
facts before them, under what plea or excuse could the funds
of the established church in North Wales, or the funds of
one of its bishoprics be brought into a rich country like Eng-
land? (Hear. hear.) Again, he asked, under what plea could
these revenues be brought into a rich country like this, and
most of all to Manchester ? He confessed he thought it ex-
ceedingly unjust, and on this account lie had volunteered to
be one of those who were willing to petition against it. Upon
the subject of the united bishoprics he was perhaps less com-
petent to speak than those who were better acquainted with
the localities of the country ; but it did nevertheless appear
to him that if there was to be only one bishop over North
Wales, the whole of the seven counties in it might as well be
put at once under the episcopal superintendence of the Bishop
of London, for any advantage they would derive from the
change. He knew that intercourse between many parts of
North Wales was exceedingly difficult. It was a religious
country : the Welsh were generally a pious people, and con-
templated this alteration with great alarm. It might be said
that the number of persons present at that meeting was small ;
but it must be recollected that there were thirty thousand
Welsh in Liverpool, an immense proportion of whom would
sign this petition. In fact it was the duty of those in Liver-
pool to re-echo the cry of their countrymen in North Wales
on this subject. If they did not ask they could not expect
to receive. (Hear, hear.) They were merely exercising
their constitutional privilege in petitioning, and if they gained
nothing by it, they would have at least the consolation of
knowing they had done their best, and that their friends in
Wales could not accuse them of lukewarrnness. (Cheers.)
The Rev. THOMAS POORE seconded the resolution in an
eloquent address in the Welsh language, in the course of
which he introduced a variety of statistical details, showing
the injustice and the inexpediency of abstracting the revenues
of the church in North Wales.
The Rev. DAVID JAMES next addressed the meeting. He
commenced by saying that he cordially united in the effort to
secure to their countrymen in Wales the privileges which had
been so largely described by the speakers who had preceded
him. He fully concurred, too, with the sentiments of the
first resolution which had been moved, seconded, and carried
unanimously. He also concurred in the resolution now be-
fore the meeting, for the reasons which had been already as-
signed, but more especially for another reason which would
constitute a subject for discussion at another time, and which,
if not carried, he could not conceive how the advantages which
had been described would be really and fully obtained. He
was relieved from a painful position himself, by an assurance
given to him by the chairman and other gentlemen upon the
platform, that they, one and all, concurred in the desire
which was manifested by their countrymen here and in the
Principality, that the Bishops of Wales should, in future,
be such as could speak the language of the country.
(Cheers.) It was clear from that demonstration of feeling
that such was, and that such would be, the hearty wish and
the ardent prayer of every one who was true to his native
country. (Renewed cheers.) With reference to the small
livings of which they had heard some little from the former
speakers, and more especially from his friend who had just
preceded him and addressed them in Welsh, he might be per-
mitted, now that he was addressing the meeting in English,
to go into the subject somewhat more at length, because he
considered there was in that one reason, without the addition
of auy other, sufficient force and power to draw, or rather to
extort from the ministry, and from the ecclesiastical com-
missioners, the concession which that meeting wanted , namely ,
, that there be no abstraction from the ecclesia,(:cal revenues

of the Principality. (Loud cheers.) He had taken some
pains in investigating the actual state of the Welsh church,
for the purpose of ascertaining the grounds upon which he
could at any time come forward and support a measure such
as was now before the meeting. He found that, in addition
to the livings which had been mentioned, he meant bene-
fices in the dioceses of Bangor and St. Asaph—there were
double if not treble the number in South Wales—so poor as
not to be sufficient to support their clergy, who were pre-
vented by their calling from engaging in any other occupa-
tion, in order to find the means of a livelihood. (Hear.) The
Bishopric of St. Asaph. it seemed, contained about 21 livings,
each under £lOO a-year—that is, ranging from £49 up to
£lOO. The Bishopric of Bangor contained 30 livings, each
under the value of £lOO a_year—that is, ranging from £5O
to £99. The Bishopric of St. David's contained 165 livings,
each under £lOO a-year ; and, although the diocese contained
about 408 or 410 livings, returned to the ecclesiastical com-
missioners, the average income of the whole of them, rich
and poor, was only £l4B a-year. (Hear.) There was only
one living in the diocese of St. David's, out of the 410,
that was worth above £6OO a-year ; there was not one be-
tween £5OO and £6OO ; there werejust ten above £4OO, whilst
all the rest came under £3OO a-year, and, as he had
said before about 165, ranging from £49 to £99 a-year.
(Hear, hear.) The consequence of this state of things must
be contemplated and fairly met, in order to shew that the
Principality had no revenues to spare for England. (Hear.)
He entreated those who were present, many of whom were
engaged in a small way of business in Liverpool which perhaps
realized £5O, £6O, £7O, or £BO a-year,' to consider whether
it was expected that clergymen, who were prevented from en-
gaging in any occupation except the ministerial office, and in
a school occasionally, could bring up children from one to
ten—for clergymen in the Principality had frequently that
number—upon only £4O, £60,£80, or £99 a-year ? If these
clergymen were to be confined to their own parishes, doing
the spiritual work in which they were engaged with faithful-
ness to their heavenly master, and with love for the souls of
those committed to their charge, was it likely they could
keep their children from poverty, or from cold, or from na-
nakedness, or shelter them from the weather with no more
than £99 a-year ? (Hear, hear.) In travelling from St.
David's to the diocese of Llandaff, we found there were 61
benefices not amounting to £lOO a-year each ; and that the
average of all the livings put together, rich and poor, would
give to each minister only about £lBO a-year. Now this was
a state of things which ought to call forth the sympathy of
Englishmen, :and make them willing to leave to the poor
Principality its own revenues to support its own ministers, to
keep them from poverty, and their children from starvation,
and to enable those parents who felt for their children to
give an education to their little ones, which would help them
to obtain situations, so as to be of some use to society, and
to pass through the world with that respectability which
suited a clergyman's family, (Hear, hear.) The sun rose
in the east and travelled towards the west; the tide of
nations had come from the east and pursued its course west-
ward ; but with regard to the church revenues of Wales, we
found that the tide run in a contrary direction—namely, from
the west towards the east. (Hear.) England threw nothing
into the principality, but the principality was made to throw
those revenues into England. He held in his hand a return
of some of the institutions of England which were supported
by revenues drawn from Wales—the craggy, the barren, the
mountainous principality, whose fastnesses had protected
alike their forefathers, their princes, and their valiant kings
and generals, when they were hunted like partridges upon
the mountains. Had not that poor unproductive province
appealed year after year against the abstraction of liar reve-
nues, to support institutions in England ? Jesus' College,
Oxford, the Dean and Chapter of Winchester, St. John's
Hospital, Chester, the Grocers' Company, London, and
Lichfield Cathedral, all in England, had each a part of the re-
venues of Wales, yet England must have more to support a
bishop in Manchester, of all places in the world—whose great
merchants—nay, any two of them, conjointly, could pur-
chase the whole principality ! Yet they could not support a
bishop for the benefit of their own population, for the benefit
of thousands who were working for them, and whose indus-
try was daily increasing their profits ! Oh, it was a shame—
it was a reflection upon the nation to consent to such a mea-
sure as this, to make the poor inhabitants of his native land
to toil, and sweat. and lose their sleep, to support a bishop
in the midst of merchants who were princes of the earth!
(Cheers.) Now,
he proposed, if there was no wisdom ,in
high quarters, to make an arrangement upon this subject,
and by a very easy plan to establish a new bishopric in
Manchester. There was a collegiate church there. The
principal of that establishment was formerly called the
warden, and he received twice as much as the fellows.
(Hear.) Already the principal had been made a dean,
and the fellows canons, preparatory, he supposed, to the
appointment of a bishop, to be supported—he hoped not
from the revenues of the principality, for that' should not be.
(Applause.) He (Mr. James) would make the Dean of
Manchester, as he
.Was now called, the Bishop of Man.
chester, and give him the £2OOO a year which was already
annexed to that office. He had examined into the actual
character of the property belonging to it, and he had been
told by an attorney of Manchester that they did not want the
revenues of Wales, for if the property of the Collegiate Insti-
managed, it would produce £30,000
tution was properly
a year. Let the dean then be made the bishop, and 16t the
revenues now belonging
to the office be annexed to the bi-
shopric ; let one of the canons be made the dean ; let
them so keep to themselves ; and if they wanted assistance,
let them make an appeal to their merchants, and he had no
doubt that emoluments would flow in sufficient to make the
Bishop of Manchester rival any bishop in England in point
of dignity as well as
in point of usefulness. (Loud cheers.)
It was necessary, in stating their views upon the subject, that
they should bring forward the strongest at guments in support
of their own claims, because those arguments would be read
and considered by Englishmen. He had always found that
not buty carried away as Irishmen by
Englishmen were
that they required appeals to facts.
a burst of eloquence,
forward plausible arguments, but except you
You might bring
supplied them with facts, you would noto convince them. He
the weavers Yorkshire—men who
had found it so among
could not read, but who could speak excellent English.
He had found, he repeated, .even those poor people require
and, Indeed, it was the characteristic
you stated facts, to carry conviction
facts to convince them ;
of Englishmen that, if
to their minds, You might get them to support anything.
(Cheers.) He had taken some pains to explain in,private the
actual position of the
Established Church in the principality ;
and he had always found, that the gentlemen to who those
facts had been stated so as to afford them a succinct t clear,
and correct view of the subject, had enlisted thecnselvel heart
and soul upon his side ; they were prepared to suppott sue),

a claim as this, and as another which would be brought for-
ward by and by, because they said—if the Welsh Church was
to he preserved atall, it must be made more useful to the coun-
try, and to toe people who paid for the support of the bishops
and ministers, the people must receive something in return,
in the way of instruction, of visiting from house to house, of
spiritual consolation; and of encouragement, in the face of
many trials. (Cheers.) He was bound to confess, and it
was with pain that he did so, that the state of the church
in the principality was deplorable—such as was calculated to
call forth the sympathy and the commiseration of every true
patriot, and of every one who felt interested in the success of
true religion, in any part of the world. We had seen the
churches deserted ; we had seen the people leave the church
in disgust and turn away dissatisfied with the state of things
which it presented, because the church had not been worked
as a system for their benefit, in the way she should have been
made to work, and in the way he trusted she would be made
to work by and by, in order to produce spiritual prospects of
the vast mass of the population. (Cheers.) The time was
coming, therefore, when every one must put his shoulder to
the wheel, in order, if possible, to drive forward this great
machinery into a proper position, that it might work its way
to the hearts and affections of the people, and that there
might be but one voice, one sentiment, and one declaration of
attachment and love to it, proceeding from rich and poor,
from learned and unlearned, throughout the land. (Loud
cheers.) lie hoped and trusted, therefore, that, in advocat-
ing this subject, they would concur, and also get others to
concur, in the duty of supporting the petitions about to be
sent from hence against the abstraction of ecclesiastical reve-
nues from the principality to any object in England. In
order to secure that object, the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph
must be kept separate. They could not carry the second
unless they carried the first. They must carry the first or
lose the second; and therefore they declared their unwilling-
ness to see any more of the wealth, and, he would add too,
the patronage of the principality, transferred to rich England,
—to England, wallowing in wealth and revelling in luxury.
It was to her disgrace and reproach that any commissioners
should have attempted to abstract its ecclesiastical revenues
from pour Wales. (Hear.) The Welsh could not do their
work effectually, he was convinced, until their friends in the
principality attempted some better measures than they had
of late mooted. They had hitherto set about the work ex-
actly like children. Lord Dungannon had certainly made a
very plausible speech at the meetings recently held ; but his
lordship had given no facts. He ought to have drawn the
attention of the public to the state of the church ; to have
shewn its poverty ; the abstraction of its revenues already to
England; and have taken that in his hand. (Cheers.) Un-
less they brought facts before the public, unless they shewed
the commissioners the facts upon paper, and left them to
calculate for themselvas, they would never carry the point
with Englishmen. (Hear, hear.) It was incumbent then
that they should do so. He did not know what might be
done in Liverpool, or what might be the character of the
petitions to be sent up ; but if he was spared, he would lay
before the Archbishop of Canterbury a table, which he would
call " A Chapter of Grievances with regard to the Poverty
and Misgovernment of the Welsh Church." (Cheers.) We
owed the Archbishop of Canterbury a grudge for telling us
that bishops had nothing to do with the people, but with the
clergy. So far from that, we must have bishops who
would attend, and speak, and preach to the people as
well as to the clergy. (Hear, hear, heats) He dread-
ed no man when he had justice upon his side. (Cheers.) He
dreaded not the frown of archbishop or bishop when he had
justice upon his side ; but he would _shew the grievances of
his country and of his church in the light of the world • and
when he had laid them before the ;rchbishop, they should
go forth before the people. (Hear.) The time was coming
when every bishop in Wales must do his duty, and all the
clergy, whether vicars, rectors, perpetual curates, or stipen-
diary curates, in Wales, must do their duty to the Welsh
auras, or not expect to be paid. (Hear.) They must be
qualified, too, to do that duty in a language that thrilled to
the heart. (Cheers.) To accomplish that, it would be ne-
cessary that all the rectors and vicars should know the lan-
guage of the people. (Cheers.) What had been the causes
of abuse in the Welsh church? Why, the bishops and the
clergy themselves. (Hear, hear.) He ventured to say that
one-half of the clergy in Wales could not write the Welsh
language correctly. (Hear, hear.) That system had been
too much encouraged. The clergy had been discouraged
from cultivating the language by the bishops, who did not
know it themselves, and cared nothing about it. The rev.
gentleman, after a few further observations commenting
upon the excellent results which would arise to the Welsh
church from the appointment of "Welsh bishops, concluded
by supporting the resolution.—lt was then carried.
Mr. W. C. DAVIES then read the petitions to the Queen,
the Ecclesiastical Comthissioners, and to the Houses of
Lords and Commons ; and the following resolution relating
to them was carried on the motion of Mr. DAVID EVAN s,
seconded by Mr. OWEN WILLIAMS :—" That the petition to
her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen be entrusted to the
Earl of Powys, that to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to
the Lords Bishop of St. Asaph and Bangor, the petition to
House of Lords to Lord Kenyon, and that to the Commons
to Viscount Sandon, for presentation, when they severally
may deem fit."
The Rev. 11. JONES, vicar of Northop, moved the next re-
solution, which requested the committee to continue their
services during the parliamentary session, or until the ques-
tion was finally disposed of, in order to promote such mea-
sures as might be desirable to carry the object into effect.
The rev. gentleman maintained that if one bishop only was
placed over the whole of North Wales, he would have more
patronage at his disposal than any one man ought to have.
It was, indeed, impossible to view the measure in any other
light. On the question of the abstraction of revenues he
could speak feelingly. He had the cure of a very large parish,
in which he had, through the gener sity of friends, been.ena-
bled to erect a new church at a distance of about three miles
from the parish church. Great was the difficulty he found
in raising money to complete the building, but he experienced
much greater in endeavouring to obtain funds for its endow-
ment. It was, indeed, so inadequately endowed, that he was
positively ashamed to ask any clergyman to officiate in it,
for he had not £5O a-year to offer him. On the other hand,
what was the state of his parish with regard to ecclesiastical
revenues ? The rectorial tithes which were added 150 years
ago to the diocese of St. Asaph amounted to £6OO or £7OO
a-year ; and could anything be more hurtful than to see that
income transferred from Wales to that rich place called Man-
chester ? He wanted two—nay, three—churches more in his
parish to enable him to do his duty officially. Now he could
get money to build these additional churches, but he had not
a shilling wherewith to endow them. If the legislature would
allow him to have what really belonged to his parish, he
should be in possession of ample resources for the endow-
ments. Under these circumstances he most heartily ap-
, proved of the objects of the meeting,' and trusted they would
be attained. _ _

The Rev H JONES, incumbent of Bagillt, seconded the
resolution in a long and able address. Something had been
said about , he qualifications of bishops in Wales, and he
begged to express his concurrence in the sentiment which
had been often expressed, that there ought to be Welsh
bishops in Wales. He did not say this in defiance of any
feeling upon the part of his most respected diocesan, or of
his lordship's colleagues, but because he was sure they were
as much alive to the demands of justice and reason as that
meeting. Bat, although he felt thus warmly upon the sub-
ject of his country's language and church, still he thought it
did not belong to them to touch upon the subject that even-
ing. What they had to guard against was, the denial to
Wales of common justice, and the loss of a bishopric. What-
ever might be the qualifications of the bishop who might be
appointed over the whole of North Wales, unless he had the
gift of swifter communications than could be afforded lr► the
present state of the country, he could not, with the whole of
North Wales under his charge, perform the functions of his
office satisfactorily. It was necessary, therefore, that they
should use their utmost efforts to secure such a number of
bishops, as, supposing them to be qualified, would enable
them to perform their duties properly. The rev. gentleman
then proceeded to cite a number of instances, relative to the
poverty of the Welsh church, and the injustice of the aliena-
tions of its funds, and be concluded amidst loud applause by
seconding the resolution.
The CHAIRMAN then put the motion and it was unani-
mously carried.
The meeting then thanked Mr. Clough for his services in
the chair, and dispersed.
[We understand that the petitions which have emanated
from this meeting have already received a very considerable
number of signatures.]