The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-10-20 00:00:00

THE DIRTY TRICKS OF THE SOCIALISTS

EXPOSED.

A meeting was held in the Amphitheatre on the evening of
Friday last, for the purpose of affording an opportunity to
Mr. Brindley, the indefatigable opponent of Socialism, to
expose the falsehoods and calumnies which the members of
that system in this town had circulated concerning him. The
falsehoods, in substance, were that Mr. Brindley, after his
lectures, had ingloriously retreated from the field, alarmed at
some pretended array of talent to be brought against him.
The following report, which is longer than we originally in-
tended, will amuse those who feel interested in the contro-
versy between Christians and Socialists, but it will fail in
giving an adequate idea of the pretensions and the cowardice
of the Liverpool disciples of Robert Owen.
The Rev. FIELDING Oyu) was called to the chair. In
addressing the meeting the rev. gentleman said, that the
majority of them might perhaps be aware that an alleged
correspondence between Mr. Brindley and the Socialist
community of this town had been in circulation for a few
days past, in which an attempt was evidently made to
insinuate that the Socialists had called Mr. Brindley
out into a discussion upon the principles of Socialism,
but that be had shrunk from the discussion. Mr. Brind-
ley, however, was present to-night, having come from
London for the purpose, to demonstrate that whether the
Socialists could or could not help such conduct, they were
in this instance entirely in error, to use the mildest expression
that occurred to him. Mr. Brindley would submit the
whole correspondence. He would state the dates of his
own letters, and the date of the letters he had received from
the Socialist body, which would chew that from the first he
had been anxious to bring them to discussion—that he had
made every reasonable concession to their claims in order to
accomplish this object—and he was upon the platform this
night once more to repeat the challenge, and prepared to
concede to almost any terms the Socialists might name, in
order that they might not have it in their power to say to the
Public that he had shewn any unwillingness to meet them.
(Great applause.) He (the chairman) had, therefore, to re-
Buest from the individuals present a patient hearing for Mr.
rindley whilst he made these statements ; and if there were
any member of the Socialist body present, he invited that
'llan to come on the platform, and deny, if he could, any of
Mr. Brindley's allegations, whether in reference to this cor-
reSpondence or to the Socialist controversy generally.
(Cheers.) He (the chairman) would himself guarantee that
t,i.nY individual so coming forward should have a full and a
fair hearing s and so far as he could protect him, he should
il3.t be interrupted whilst making his statements. (Loud
cheers.) The rev. gentleman concluded by calling upon Mr.
Brindley. •
Mr. BRINDLEY then came forward, and was received with
loud cheering from all parts of the house. He commenced
by saying, that he had felt it necessary to call the meeting
at very short notice for the purpose of exposing to the public
of Liverpool the lying practises of the Socialists. He had
not expected that such notice would have been required from
him, for when lie arrived here yesterday afternoon [Thursday]
from London, he fully anticipated work for him as last night.
He had come, as he then understood, for the purpose of meet-
ing Mr. Hollick in discussion upon the evenings of Thursday
and Friday ; but, on his arrival, he found that the Socialists
avoided meeting him, for they raised two objections which
seemed insuperable, unless he (Mr. Brindley) sacrificed the
cause of public truth and justice. But he should take the
opinion of the meeting, and if they decided he should accept
the challenge in the form put by the Socialists, then, at once,
as the humble servant of the meeting, he could make the best
of a bad job, and make themost of the advocacy of truth even
with the two paltry modes of evidence the Socialists placed
within his reach. (Cheers.) He thought this the most clear,
straightforward, and manly course. The Socialists having
Put forward a pretended correspondence between the two com-
mittees as soon as they knew he had left Liverpool—which
correspondence he should to-night prove to be a scandalously
fraudulent fabrication—he thought it only just to himself and
to the meeting, that they and he should be set right upon
this matter ; and that if the Socialists and himself did appear
before the public as disputants, he (Mr. Brindley) should
not come before them with the prejudice against him that he
had shrunk from discussion, or that the Socialists had been
unable to obtain any reply to their letters " calling him out,"
as they said. (Cheers.) He had, first of all, to make good
the the placard which be had issued to-day headed—" More'Ly-
ing and Fraud." (Hear.) Here was the " Correspondence
between the Universal Community Society of Rational Re-
ligionists and the Reverend John Brindley." He supposed
they,s meant himself, although lie was not " the Reverend John
Brindley ;" that was a title they had gratuitously given him
as a reward, he supposed, after all the blackguardism he had
received from them. (Hears hear.) At the end of this cor-
respondence came these words—
, And to this letter we have had no reply."
-this referred to a letter written by Mr. Westwick, dated
Oct, 7th. This correspondence was issued on Saturday last,
the 10th instant. Now he should prove that not only had
She Socialists a reply to that letter but that, moreover, he
had himself received from them a long letter in reply to that
reply upon the 9th instant, the day previously to the publi-
cation of this alleged correspondence. If that were the case
the meeting would see that he had at once proved the So-
cialists guilty of a most shameless lie. Here was his reply,
dated the 7th, to theirs of the 7th, to which, on. the 10th,
they said they had had NO REPLY.
38, Church-street, Oct. 7, 1840.
Sir,—My committee will be prepared to enter upon the
necessary arrangements with the Socialist committee for a
public discussion, &c., &c., as soon as the protestant meet-
g, which now occupies the attention of many of them has
been held. To avoid any unpleasant personal collision, it is
deemed advisable that the arrangements should be entered
into by written communications. My committee will sit for
that Purpose at noon on Friday next. The challenge given
Y me runs thus
That I prove Socialism to be an absurd, an immoral, an
atheistical, and a swindlin sstem.
,a 2. That I refer to no books as authorities but those of the
°veer' of the Socialist body ; and appeal to no persons as
• evidence but those who I been sufferers by the commu-
nity fraud lave
3. That
half lours each disputant shall have equal time
.of alternate
4. That';sY, for four hours, on two success
lve evenings.
discs • "Ir. Hollick have the choice of commencing the
s. discussion,
d•That each disputant choose his own chairman—the
moderator, whose decision shall be final, to be chosen by the
meeting.
6. That the surplus receipts, after paying the necessary
expences, not including the personal espeu.es of_ the disput-
ants, be paid over to the charities of the town, as the meeting
may decide.
7. Admission as at Mr. Brindley's lectures—the moderator
to be treasurer, and one from each party at the doors.
I remain, sir, yours obediently,
JOAN BRINDLEY.
So that the meeting would perceive be did not abate one jot
of the original charge against the Social system. (Hear.)
Here, in the next place, was John Finch's answer to that let-
ter, dated the Bth inst., and received on the 9th, the day before
their publication of the correspondence. On this letter he
Charged them to-night with being palpable, cool falsifiers, and
he called upon them in the face of British justice, to acquit
themselves of the charge. (Cheers.) If he had gentlemen
to
deal with, men of common courtesy or common decency,
lie should wish to conduct himself towards them as a gen-
tleman and as a man ; but if he had, as on this occasion,
,other characters to deal with, he must use equally plain terms
towards them—he must be equally plain and equally straight-
forward. (Cheers.) Here then was John Finch's letter.
" Liverpool, Bth October, 1840.
" Mr. Brindley,—Sir,—We have received your letter of
this afternoon, and they are of so vague and indefinite a cha-
racter that we cannot accede to them altogether as they are,
for the following reasons :
" Your first proposition is—' That you prove Socialism to
be an absurd, an immoral, an atheistical, and a swindling
system.' We are quite willing that you should try to prove
all this, and ten times more, if you are able."
by, that was all he (Mr. Brindley) had undertaken to do.
nut mark here was a piece of great cleverness and of exceed-
ing sophistry—
" 2nd proposition.—' That you refer to no books as autho-
rities but those of the OFFICERS of the Socialist body.' To
this we cannot agree, because if you were to undertake a con-
troversy with Roman Catholics, you would not allow them to
refer to all the writings of every person who has held any
glee in any Protestant society as an authority for the prin-
ciples of Protestantism, you would not allow them even to
take your liturgy and homilies for infallible authority, but
haply would say that the Bible only is your standard,' or
they might refer to the writings of the founders of your
ligion—Luther, who advocated polygamy and other vices ;
or to Henry the Eighth, who first wrote a book in proof of
the truth of popery, and then changed his religion because
the Pope would not allow him to depose and murder his
'elves, For the same reason we cannot allow you to use as
authorities in this discussion every book that may happen to
have been written by any officer of any of our societies.
Certainly not, and he never wanted them to submit to the
Writings of any person who had ever held office in any Social-
ist society, but he wanted to hold them to the officers of the
,ikiseiet3'. But see the art and subtlety used in creeping out of
the thing. Then John Finch went on to say—
" We shall discuss the subject from the book of Dutura-
tion of Principles, published by order of our Conzress, and
from the book of the Constitution and Laws of the Universal
Community Society of Rational Religionists, published by
the same authority, and from them only."
Here John Finch declared that the Socialists would discuss
the whole question with him (Mr. Brindley), with no other
than two tracts, both of which tracts, as the meeting should
see, had only been brought into existence, the one last year
and the other this year. (Hear, hear.) The Socialists had
been regularly organised as a society for many years ; they
had held five annual parliaments, yet now they wanted to
bind him to two apologies for their principles, and to drive
him off from the principles by which they had been held
together as a society for five successive annual congress meet-
ings. (Hear, hear.) This was a pretty way of getting out
of the scrape. (Cheers.) Then John Finch went on—
" If you sincerely wish to discuss the real principles of the
Socialists, you will be satisfied with this."
He (mr. Brindley) should not be satisfied with this, nor
would the meeting. He should think that if they wanted to
know what the Socialist principles were, they would require
the Socialists to accept as fair evidence all documents that,
as officers of the society, they had put out ; but of all other
hooks, surely they should accept as evidence the books of
Robert Owen, their founder, particularly The New Moral
World, and their weekly newspaper. (Hear, hear.) If
they would have nothing more to do with The New Moral
World, or any of the books of Robert Owen whatever, then
he (Mr. Brindley) stood in the enviable position of having
entirely driven them from all the standards they had pub-
lished by authority during the last six or eight years. (Hear,
hear.) By these letters, then, was proved the lying of the
Socialists, who stated they had received no such letters.
Now for their fraud. This was a very ticklish point. They
did not like the mention of it, it was so very vulgar. As to
this part of the proposition, John Finch said—
" Then as to the other part of your second proposition, you
lay—' You shall appeal to no person in evidence but those
Who have been sufferers by the community fraud.' In reply,
that persons who have gone to community, may, at present,
have been losers by it, is very possible"—
ale did not deny the fact, but extenuated it. He said—
" It has cost me a considerable sum, but that is nothing
t 0.,. the purpose."
He (Mr. Brindley) ought to have had John Finch in the evi-
dence box, to prove the fraud, because he had been a loser
by it.
" It has cost me a considerable sum, [` The more fool you,'
(laughter,)]
but that is nothing to the purpose."
Ile (Mr. Brindley) thought it was to the purpose. If he bad
sold his all, and dragged his wife and five little ones into
community, and there been robbed, he should have thought
that something to the purpose. But although John Finch
Was not fool enough to take all he had with him to commu-
nity, still " it had cost him a considerable sum," according
t° his own testimony. But the majority of those who went
to° community sacrificed all they had ; they were defrauded
they
of it, and had then no such home to return to, when
ey found it out, as John Finch. And now, since numbers
had confirmed his (Mr. Brindley's) statements, the New
rdeal World refused to publish the letters of those who
thenbeen defrauded by the community system. This proved
to be a set of knaves. (Hear.) Now, said John Finch—
You have to prove that the association is formed for
fru purposes, and is fraudulently using its funds,
Iv
‘,',l,ich we defy you or any other man to prove."
nY did they not come forward and let him prove it ? He
Qs now prepared, and had long been, to prove that they
tsd, and did, fraudulently use the funds they obtained, and
Oat they obtained those funds by fraudulent pretences

(Hear.) It was no use sending him these flimsy things, tell-
ing him to do it : he wag here to-night to prove it. (Loud
cheers.) John Finch then went on to repeat the whole
of the propositions agreed to. Did not the meeting think
that he (Mr. Brindley) had now proved the lie against
the Socialists? (Cheers.) Here was his letter replying to
theirs of the 7th, and here was John Finch's reply to that,
dated the Bth, but not received till the 9th ; yet in the corre-
spondence published on the 10th they said they had no answer
to theirs of the 7th ! Here however was the reply sent two
days before the publication of the lie ! (Cheers.) Had they
not then in this tract published a wilful and premeditated
falsehood, and circulated it about the town ? (Hear, hear,
and loud cheers.) Now came the question, why had they done
this ? He would tell the meeting their motives. Said Mr.
John Finch—

" The public will thus see we have done all we could to
bring Mr. Brindley fairly out, and that he has declined to
come forward."
To be sure : that was the reason he was there to-night.
(Cheers.)
" We again repeat that the statements he has made, are
most gross, and WILFUL FALSEHOODS, and that the man is
only a HIRED CALUMNIATOR of those whom he dare not
meet on fair and. equal terms."
They forgot to name the gentlemen who had hired him to
calumniate them : they forgot to name in what he had calum-
niated them—two little items of no great consequence cer-
tainly—hut proof did not belong to their " organisations."
(Loud cheers.) But here was the whole secret in two lines—
" On next Sunday evening, at half past six, at the Hall of
Science, Lord Nelson-street, an exposure will take place of
the lying calumnies which this man has heaped upon the So-
cialists. The public are invited to attend, and to come early,
as many were obliged to go away last Sunday for want of
room.—By order of the council board,
" Wm. WESTWICK, Secretary."
Mark, the whole of the society were implicated in this.
(Hear. hear.) The secret was this—" if we cannot meet
Mr. Brindley we can make something out of him by lying,
because we know he is lecturing in Chester on Saturday
night, and at Sheffield on Monday, so he is out of the way,
and we shall get plenty of twopences by him which is all we
want." (Loud cheers.) The plain fact was that these So-
cialist gentry published this fraudulent correspondence in
order to get a crowded meeting, arid the pence of the people
by fraudulent pretences. They got the meeting together
under the fraudulent pretence of exposing his (Mr. Brindley's)
cowardice, knowing well at the same time, they bad in the
building his reply to theirs of the 7th, undertaking to !meet
them in public discussion. (Hear, hear.) Their statement
therefore was not only wilfully false but it was fraudulent, in-
asmuch as they had omitted to publish two portions of the
correspondence which were essential parts of it—because
whilst they pretended to publish the whole, they absolutely
omitted the two most important communications—(Hear)—
and one other which was a reply to his letter to Mr. West-
wick, dated October 1. As soon as he reached town, he had
the first letter placed in his hands, containing a resolution
passed by the Socialists, that it was their intention to enter
into a discussion with him, but before he received that, his
own challenge was upon the walls, calling upon them to meet
him. (Hear, hear.) They did not accept his challenge,
saying Mr. Rollick or Mr. anybody else should meet him
upon such and such principles, but they merely gave notice
that they would discuss. He sent them in three propositions
—one that they should meet him each night, having an hour
for discussion after his lecture, then that they :should have
equal time for discussion, and the third that he should
finish his lectures and afterwards go into discussion. What
was the reply of Mr. Westwick—
" Oct. Ist, 1840.
" greatly regret that I cannot answer yours defi-
nitely, but our council board will meet to-night, and I will
forward their decision to you early in the morning. I think
it more than probable we shall accept the 3rd.
Yours obediently, " WM. WESTWICI(.."
He (Mr. Brindley) wrote another letter. Instead of sending
an answer on the Saturday morning, which Mr. Westwick
was pledged to do, from the council board, they posted bills
on the walls, saying that all the terms of discussion were in
the hands of Mr. Brindley ! (Hear.) Now here was a de-
liberate lie. He had received no terms, but he had himself
sent them terms which they had not replied to. He sent
them a second letter, to know the meaning of the placard
upon the walls ; and what was the answer ? Mr. Westwick
" had not time to attend to it"—and that a mere verbal
message. Why had not Mr. Westwick inserted the above
letter in the correspondence published by the Socialists ?
Why had they not dared to publish his (Mr. Brindley's) se-
cond letter, and Mr. Westwick's important reply, that they
had not time to attend to it ? (Hear, hear.) This being
the case, he called upon the Socialists this night to clear
themselves in the eyes of the public of these charges ; if they
did not, they stood convicted of wilful falsehood by the very
publications issued by authority of the central board, and
signed by their own secretary. (Cheers.) Here, then, was
the first part of the charge he brought against them, and
which he brought upon the authority of their own printed
documents and their own letters.
A PERSON on the platform asked whether it would not be
right to send a deputation to the " Hall of Science," in
Lord Nelson-street, informing the Socialists that Mr. Brind-
ley was waiting to meet them ?
Mr. BRINDLEY was afraid, if a deputation was sent, the
Socialists would find themselves too busy to come. He had
no objection, however, to a deputation being sent.
The same PERSON observed that the notice of the present
meeting had been very short.
Mr. BRINDLEY.—Oh, but he had a letter to read from
John Finch, which shewed that he knew all about it. He
should himself have proposed that a deputation be sent, but
the fact was that the Socialists dared not, and they did
not mean, to come. If any of them were present, let them
come upon the platform like men ; he (Mr. Brindley) would
not run away (loud cheers), and the meeting would notice
throughout the whole of the correspondence the fairness of
his offers. (Hear, hear.) He had now to read a letter that
he had sent to the Socialists, in reply to John Finch's reply,
which he had just read. He sent this letter from Birming-
ham, and it was sent to Mr. John Finch on Monday. It
began—
" Liverpool, 38, Church-street, 12th Oct.
" At a meeting of Mr. Brindley's Committee, held at 38,
Church-street, this morning—present, Mr. J. Rigby (in the
chair), Rev. F. Ould, Rev. P. Brown, Rev. G. Mansfield,
Rev. B. A. Marshall, Rev. J. R. Connor, Capt. Creighton—
" It was resolved, That the propositions of the Socialist
body, in answer to Mr. Brindley's challenge, be answered
thus :
" lst proposition, agreed to as it stands.
" 2nd do. agreed to as it stands.
" 2rd do. agreed to as it stands.
" 4th do. agreed to as it stands.
" sth do. to stand thus :—Each disputant to choose
his own chairman, the moderator to be chosen by the two
chairmen, and in case of their not agreeing as to the choice,
the meeting to decide.
" 6th proposition to stand thus :—Surplus receipts, after
paying the necessary expenses, not including the personal
expenses of the disputants, be paid over to the Infirmary and
the Northern Hospital.
" 7th proposition to stand thus :—Admission as at Mr.
Brindley's lecture, Mayor of Liverpool to be treasurer, if he
will comply.
" And, as an Bth proposition, it is proposed, That there
be no tickets, but that the money be taken at the doors by
two money-takers, one to be appointed by each party.
" It is also proposed, That the discussion take place in
the Amphitheatre, on Thursday and Friday evenings next.
There, the meeting would observe he agreed to the proposi-
tions they offered him. (Hear.) There was the whole, and
a plain copy of his answer sent to Mr. John Finch, through
his committee, in which lee agreed to all their propositions
rather than let them escape. Although it was absurd to
confine himself to the two little pamphlets which they had
sent him, yet rather than let them escape he had accepted
their own terms. (Hear.) He wanted their "organizations"
upon the platform. (Cheers and laughter.)
A PERSON observed that Mr. Brindley had mentioned,
upon a previous occasion, several towns in which Socialism
had declined. Was that the case at Norwich ?
Mr. BRINDLEY could name plenty of towns in which
Socialism had become extinct, but he was only concerned now
to see the Socialists shut out of Liverpool. (Hear.) Here,
now, was Mr. Finch's reply, dated the 13th inst., so that the
public would see an incessant correspondence had been kept
up in order to get them out. It was a very lengthy letter
indeed, but here it was—
" We cannot agree for the discussion to take place before
next Tuesday evening, as we shall not have time before then
to make the necessary arrangements. Nor can we agree,
under any consideration, for the choice of moderator, who
in fact is the only real chairman, to be left to the meeting."
This man declared here, that the Socialists could not upon
any consideration allow the meeting to choose their own
chairman. What reply could his (Mr. Brindley's) committee
give to that ? His committee had no right to—they dared
not—usurp the authority and power of choosing a chairman ;
and surely if his committee had no right to appoint the
meeting's chairman, the Socialists had no right to do so
either. John Finch here said he would, on no consideration,
allow the meeting to appoint the umpire. Now he (Mr.
Brindley) declared, that this was contrary to all the usage
and rules of public meetings in this country, and it would be
for the meeting to say whether they would give up their
right. If they said they had no objection, and would allow
the Socialists to choose a chairman for them, with all his
heart—he would meet them—(cheers ;)—but until the meet-
ing had acceded to that, neither his nor any other committee
had any right to thrust upon them a chairman chosen with-
out their knowledge or consent. (Cheers.) Here the thing
stood. Upon his arrival in town he found they had put on this
objection another—as to the proof of the fraudulent inten-
tions and fraudulent practices of the Socialists. How was he
to prove them ? They would not allow him to go to their
practices, but they insisted upon his establishing the proof
by reading their principles ! (Hear.) How was he to do
that ? How was it possible for any man to prove fraudulent
practices from the reading of principles ? He defied any
man to do it. For instance, here was a trades' club. There
was a committee of ten ; and the members charge the com-
mittee with fraudulent practices concerning the funds of the
society. But how can they prove it, for, says the committee,
we will make you prove our fraudulent practises by merely
reading over the rules and regulations of the society !
(" Hear, hear," and cheers.) Yet rather than not meet the
Socialists at all, he would at once agree to meet them upon
the two books which they had sent him ; but if they wanted
him to prove their fraudulent practises from reading those
books, and if they insisted on it, the meeting would see the
reason. (Hear, hear.)
A VOICE (in the circle.)—Will Mr. Briudley read the
whole letter ?
Mr. BRlNDLEY.—Certainly. But come upon the plat-
form. (Loud cheers.)
The MAN came on the platform, and in answer to general
cries of " Name, name !" he said, my name is Doubleday,
and all that I am here to-night for is, to say that, whoever
the Socialists are I care not, and whoever Mr. Brindley is I
care not. All I want to see is, justice done to both parties.
(Hear.)
Mr. BRINDLEY.—That is what we have come here for.
(Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—If this is the same letter that I have
read before, there is falsehood upon one side or the other.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRINDLEY.—Read it all over yourself. (Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY commenced reading, but having thickly
interspersed it with comments,
Mr. BRINDLEY called upon him to read the whole of the
document before he commented, as he (Mr. Brindley) had
been charged with not wishing to read the whole of it.
The CHAIRMAN called upon Mr. Doubleday to read the
whole.

Mr. DOUBLEDAY read as far as the fourth proposition,
concerning the appointment of chairmen and umpire, when
be went, on to say, that he should like to have the Rev. Hugh
M'Neile as the umpire at a discussion. He repeated, that
all be wished to see was justice to both parties, as a lie had
been told either by one or the other. Now, Mr. Brindle),
had posted the walls of the town, saving that the Socialists
did not dare to meet him, but what did Mr. Finch's letter
say? (Great uproar.)
The CHAIRMAN requested a patient hearing for the
speaker. He had pledged himself to procure a fair bearing
for both sides, and unless he could secure that, he should be
under the necessity of vacating the chair. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.7I now call upon Mr. Brindley, before
this meeting, to appoint a time, place, and a chairman, and
the Socialists will meethim in discussion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRINDLEY.—That is what I want to bring them to,
but they dare not come. (Cheers.)
Mr. DciunLEDAv.--Do
not let Mr. Brindley insult the
two committees by saying it is not their business to appoint
their chairmen. It is their business ; and it is for the chairmen
to appoint an umpire. But I ask Mr. Brindley this—why
has he brought forward a small placard which shows the
genuine honour of some gentlemen ? I will read it. " What
think you of the Socialists now ?"

Mr. I3nuntrY.—Begin with the beginning, and read the
whole of it. (Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY then read the following—
" MORE LYING AND FRAUD OF THE SOCIALISTS.

" What think you now of the Socialists ? They have pre-
tended to publish the correspondence on the subject of a
public discussion, &c., and have actually omitted some of
the most important communications that have passed be-
tween us ; whence their FRAL D. They also declare, in their
publication of the 10th, that no answer was given to theirs of
the 7th ; instead of which my reply, dated the 7th, was sent
in on the morning of the Bth, and a long letter received from
John Finch, in reply, on the 9th, dated the Bth ; yet on the
10th they say there was no answer to theirs of the 7th !!!
Here, then, is their WILFUL LYING. What can we do with
these creatures of circumstances ? Dare they meet me on
any terms? " JOHN BRINDLEY."
" Birmingham, October 12, 1840."
What publication on the 10th he begged to ask Mr. Brindle),
was here referred to ?

Mr. BRINDLEY.—Why, your publication of the corre-
spondence, to be sure.
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I hare seen no publication by us on
the 10th of the correspondence, and I will prove it could not
be so. Now, gentlemen and ladies—l mean ladies and gen-
tlemen,—(great laughter)—on the 7th of October the follow-
ing letter was sent by the Socialists to Mr. Brindley—holding
up the correspondence.
Mr. BRINDLEY.—He said just now that he had not seen
the correspondence. (Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.-1 said I had not seen any publication
of it by us on the 10th. (Oh, oh.) But here is Mr. West-
wick's letter of the 7th, and see the shuffling of Mr. Brind-
ley. (Hear.) The speaker then read the letter, which stated
that unless an answer was received by " the council" by
nine o'clock, the correspondence would be immediately pub-
lished. Did, he continued, the Socialists receive an answer
that evening? Where was Mr. Crisp?
Mr. CRISP.—I am here.
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—Did you hand that letter to:Mr. Brind-
ley at four o'clock when it was brought to you ?
Mr. CRISP.—No letter was brought to me at four o'clock.
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—Did not Mr. Finch bring to you a
letter at four o'clock on that day ?
Mr. CRISP.—On what day ?
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—On the Bth of October.
Mr. CRISP.—I received no letter from Mr. Finch on that
day, and Mr. Finch did no such thing as send me one. But
I will tell you that he did previously send me a letter so per-
sonally gross and insulting, that I paid no attention to it. I
would pay attention to a letter even from a Socialist, but
such a letter as that which I received, I should put into the
right place—the fire. (Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—Honesty would make no objections to
answer the question. . .

Mr. BRINDLEY.—We will have the letter read now—
(Hear.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I ask you the question when was this
letter delivered ?
Mr. BRINDLE Y.—By what authority do you ask me that?
What letter do you mean ?
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—That which will prove you guilty of
falsehood—(uproar)—the letter saying, that unless an answer
was received by nine o'clock the correspondence would be
published. Was an answer sent by nine o'clock ?
Mr. BRINDLEY.—Do you think I must go all over the
country to answer your letters at the exact moment you
please to fix ?
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—Oh, Mr. Grindley, you are catched,
are you ? (Uproar.)
Mr. BRINDLEY.—If you will be decent I will reply to you.
We have here an exceedingly flippant little gentleman, who
says he has catched something ; what has he catched ?
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—A falsehood. (Uproar.)
Mr. BRINDLEY.—Where is

Mr. 1501/ BLEDAY.—Here I will read the bill again. (The
speaker then read the bill.) When, he asked, was the corres-
pondence published ?
Mr. BRINDLEY.—On the 10th—last Saturday.
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I deny it. I had the bill in my own
hands on the night of the Bth October?
Mr. BRINDLEY.—DO you mean to prove that ? Where is
the printer ?
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I cannot carry the printer upon my
back. (Uproar.)
Mr. BRINDLXY.—No, but we do not choose to take your
impertinent assertions as proved. You are exceedingly
flippant, but you are not to have your " catch" as you call
it, till you have proved it. (Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I ask Mr. Brindley did the Socialists
receive an answer to that letter on the 7th of October?
Mr. BRINDLEY.—He has to prove to this meeting that I
have been guilty of falsehood in the printed bill of mine to-
day. The proof rests with him. Now, sir, prove it. (Cheers)
Mr. DOUBLED A Y.—l have proved it. (Cries of no, no.
Mr. Brindley says this publication of the correspondence
was not issued till the 10th. Mr. Lloyd, the printer, can
answer that. It was out on the Bth. Mr. Brindle), says we
have omitted the letter that came from him ; but how could
we insert it when he sent no answer in time to our letter of
the 7th ? (Uproar.)
The CHAIRMAN.—You have given no proof of the publi-
cation of the correspondence on the Bth. (Hear and cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I have proved it.

Mr. BRINDLEY.—How ?
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—Why I tell you so and that is suffi-
cient. (Great uproar followed this sentence, in the midst of
which the representative of the Socialists retired to the back
of the platform.)
Mr. BRINDLEY then resumed his address amidst loud
cheers. He thought that the Socialists themselves would
acknowledge that the chairman had acted towards them with
more than fairness, because they had no right to expect to be
allowed to interrupt him in the middle of the correspondence.
(Hear, hear.) Yet this person had done so, and why ? Be-
cause, he said, there was a lie on one side or the other, and
he came forward to prove him (Mr. Brindley) the liar. Had
he proved it? (No, no.) That was the point. He (Mr.
Brindley) had replied to the Socialists' letter of the 7th : he
wrote the letter in Mr. Crisp's presence. He received the
Socialists' letter in the evening of the 7th, and he sent his
reply the next day. John Finch did the same thing. He
wrote his answer on the Bth which he (Mr. Brindley)
did not get till the 9th. What more could be done? Now
he defied the Socialists to prove that the correspondence was
in circulation before Saturday the 10th. Their agent said
Lloyd, the printer, could prove it, but the fact was there
was not the name of any printer upon it ! (Cheers.) They
had, therefore, a little overstepped themselves. This gen-
tleman (Mr. Doubleday) was in the secret; he saw the paper
when it was first concocted, two or three days before it was
issued—which shewed the premeditated character of the
aTtfithrii
sslnlwti thing, and
carteaohdbnp;
h. dye toa
fdosrhft stamped
hdmronp Now, v
reeeeeodaphtdl
that
hereiyta wdt first, wastF aea
httns timesnehecdanwi
othad
aaheidt n e
themtwdph oao—r .
paper
answer
esee
aperanl
Doubleday
oehi
sdbaehelnceanoddt inei tcrdyeaal
identical
read
led appeared
tpa rd at
first
letter
do
ottboing. He h
a that y.—
oo thea
made much noise certainly, but he came forward by no
authority. He (Mr. Brindley) repeated that it was the
business of the Socialist committee to come forward and
prove, if they could, that he had told a falsehood, and not for
a Mr. Anybody to come and dance and pipe before the
meeting. Mr. Brindley was proceeding to read his final an-
swer to the Socialists when he was interrupted by a drunken
man belonging to that body, who was eventually ejected from
the house by the police. He then alluded to a placard signed
by Finch and posted on the walls, in which he said that not
having received any reply to his letter of Wednesday, be
branded Mr. Brindley as a " lying impostor." Now here,
proceeded Mr. Brindley amidst loud cheers, was this " lying
impostor," ready to have a trial, before a very large jury,
upon the question of who the liar was. One of them, either
the Socialists, or himself, had evidently told a most atrocious
falsehood. The meeting would have to decide which. Now
he proposed that Mr. Doubleday should himself accompany
a deputation once more to Lord Nelson-street—(cheers)—
inviting them to a discussion this very night. Let them
come, said Mr. Brindley, and I will give them £5 for a cha-
rity if they will hold discussion this night. (Immense cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I will go with pleasure. I now want
to ask Mr. Brindley one question. Is he willing to meet the
e tesl
not
a r
had
a fair t.
He
Socialists upon fair and equal terms in discussion ? If he is,
will he state before this meeting the time and place where he
will meet them. (Oh ! oh !)
Mr. BRINDLEY.—I will meet them to-night ; now ;
' (loud cheers)—and if they like, I will meet them again to-
morrow night. (Renewed cheers.) My little friend wanted
to put one question to me, and I allowed him : he will, in
turn, allow me to put one question to him. It is this :
, Since you know all the secrets of the Socialists—
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—NO, I do not.
Mr. BRINDLEY.—You pretend to do •—will
goodness to go and " catch" John Fincl for me to-night,'
(Cheers.) ou at the
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I will catch John Finch for y
proper time and place. you have the
Me
rp°rue, will namentnAY.— tblfae rateparty,nyat which it is to b
chargewhohasthee letfor of
this theatre,
two, three, or four nights' discussion—
Mr, BRINDLEY.—Are you in authority to make any pro-
position ?
question to
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I say I will carry this
them, and I will be bound they will answer it.
Mr. CRISF.—I have taken this theatre, and they shall
have it to-morrow night for nothing. (Immense applause.)
Mr. BRINDLEY.—A gentleman has just come forward
t
most handsomely, and offered the theatre free of charge, if
Socialists will meet me here to-morrow night. (Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—Can you say for two nights ?
Mr. CRISP.—You may have it to-morrow night, but we
do not bold discussions upon the Sunday. (Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—WiII the proceeds go to the Liverpool
charities?
Mr. BRINDLEY.—Yes. Now go and get your men.
(Cheers.)
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—AII I want to see is a fair and upright
thing.
Mr. BRINDLEY.—We want it too. Now go and bring
your men. (Cheers.)
Mr Doubleday, on the part of the Socialists, and Mr Taylor
and other gentlemen, on the part of Mr. Brindley, then left
the theatre as a deputation to the Community Hotel, to re-
quest the leaders of the Socialists to appear and defend them-
selves.

Mr. BRINDLEY then addressed the meeting upon the
scene that had taken place, and upon the general question of
Socialism, clearly demonstrating all that he had described it
to be as absurd, atheistical, immoral, and swindling.
The deputation returned in about half an hour minus
Mr. Doubleday. The following scene then took place, the
effect of which no report can convey an adequate idea.
Mr. CRISP announced that when the deputation arrived
at the Community Hotel, the police were called in and or-
dered to turn them out. (Uproar.)
Mr. TAYLOR then came forward and said—When we
went in neither Mr. Hollick nor Mr. Finch were there. I
then spoke to Mr. Westwick, telling him that Mr. Double-
day had guaranteed to this meeting that either Mr. Finch or
Mr. Hollick or both of them should come down here this
evening or to-morrow night, or both, and meet Mr. Brind-
ley in discussion. He said they were not there ; and as we
were coming out of the door they brought in some policemen
to turn us out. I saw Mr. Finch come in, and I said to him,
" Do you intend coming down to meet Mr. Brindley to-
night or to-morrow night, or both ?" He said, " No I will
not go down among such a set of blackguards." I then
wished him good evening.
Mr. BRINDLEY then addressed the meeting upon this state
of things, when Mr. Doubleday suddenly made his appear-
ancceessage handed in to us by
on the platform between somesaoifd tmher.geßutrlienndlieeny,of
thew ir
rdeeppeua tta
ini o
your
Now,
0. u
rp
r presence
nc
c Doubleday,th e m
the deputation.
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—Who are they ?
Mr. BRINDLEY.—Mr Crisp, Mr Taylor, and others. They
state that when they entered this coffee house in Lord Nelson-
street, Mr. Westwick denied that Mr. Finch or Mr. Hollick
were there, and that the police were sent for to turn them
out—
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—There was such a crowd about that
the police came in—
Mr. BRINDLEY.—Do you mean to say that the Socialists
dfd not send for them ?
Mr. DOUBLEDAY.—I cannot say.
Mr. TAYLOR.—Westwick himself gave the police orders to
take us into custody. (Hear, hear.) When we got there
Finch and Hollick were out. We met Finch just coming out
of the hall into the house. We told him the meeting was
waiting for him. He said, " We will not come ; no one here
(pointing to a round table where some of the community sat)
shall meet such blackguards." This gentleman (Doubleday)
was present, and he wanted to get away, saying he himself
knew they never meant to come. (Laughter.)
The CHAIRMAN then interposed, observing that Doubleday
was only trifling with the meeting and with Mr. Brindley,
and that he advised him quietly to retire. Doubleday took
the hint, and made his exit in the manner that beaten dogs
perform such an operation.
Mr. BRINDLEY then resumed his address, in the course

of which he observed, that ft was now clearly placed upon
record, that Mr. Finch and the Socialist body generally
would not meet him, because they considered the people of
Liverpool a set of blackguards. He (Mr. Brindley) now
left this final challenge to the Socialists of Liverpool—upon
ene week's clear notice, he would, within the next three
months, come from any part of the kingdom, to meet in
public discussion, any accredited agent of Socialism in the
town of Liverpool upon their own recognised books, and that
he would leave in the hands of his committee a guarantee of
£2O for his presence at the appointed time and place, and
that they should also give a similar guarantee in £2O, the
proceeds to be given to the public charities of the town.
(Loud cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN then took the sense of the meeting upon
the question, whether Mr. Brindley had not clearly and dis-
tinctly proved Socialism to be an absurd, immoral, atheisti-
cal, and swindling system. All hands were held up in favour
of this. Next, whether Mr. Brindley had not shewn every
possible disposition, and made every possible effort during the
last fortnight to bring the Socialists to an open, fair, and free
discussion with him. This was also carried unanimously.
Next, whether the meeting was not of opinion that, notwith-
standing the correspondence which had taken place, the So-
cialists had really never from the commencement had the
slightest intention of meeting Mr. Brindley in discussion.
This was likewise unanimously adopted. The last proposi-
tion was whether the meeting should separate without skew-
ing its sense of disgust at the insolent and disrespectful mes-
sage sent to them through the deputation by Mr. John Finch.
This was also adopted, the meeting exhibiting obvious signs
of their execration of the Socialist creature. The Rev. Chair-
man then said that the controversy now stood in this position
—that either the Socialists were afraid, or did not think it ex-
pedient to meet Mr. Brindley. (Hear.) The meeting, he was
sure, did not wish to separate without passing by acclama-
tion a vote of thanks to Mr. Brindley, for his able, eloquent,
and satisfactory exposures of this fearful system, not only in
this, but in 300 towns in England. (Loud cheers, in the
midst of which the thanks of the meeting were tendered to
Mr. Brindley.
Mr. BRINDLEY.-I cannot do more than tell you that I
indeed feel exceedingly delighted with the kindness and sym-
pathy you have expressed towards me • and depend upon it,
so long as God blesses me with health and strength, and
with the humble talents which he has given me, to defend
the cause of truth against errors and abominations cf every
kind, you shall never call upon John Brindley in vain to
stand up in this good—this righteous cause. (Loud cheers.)
The meeting then separated.