The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-11-23 00:00:00

PRESENTATION OF MEMORIALS.

The MAYOR observed that, before proceeding to the con-
sideration of. the subjects on the paper, there were certain
memorials which he had to lay before the council.
A memorial signed by Robt. Bickersteth, Adam Hodgson
and others, praying for the reversion of a plot of 2000 square
yards of land for the purpose of building a church upon, was
referred to the Finance Committee.

A memorial from a tenant of a cottage in Finch-street,
praying that it might not be given to the Soup Committee,
was also referred to the Finance Committee.

The 'MAYOR then stated that two copies of the recent
treaty of commerce between England and Austria had been
forwarded to him. It was perhaps unnecessary to read the
treaty, as it had already been inserted i❑ most of the public
papers. The following letter had accompanied the copies of
the treaty:—

" London, 17th November, 1838.
"DEAR SIR,---I have the honour of transmitting to you,
for the information of the mercantile community of Liver-
pool, the enclosed two copies of the treaty of commerce lately
concluded and ratified between her majesty and the Emperor
of Austria.

" I think it my duty to intimate that Article 4 appears to
involve some slight 'degree of ambiguity, inasmuch as the
ports to which allusion is therein made have heretofore been
under the dominion of Turkey.
" I have the honour to be, dear sir,
"Your most obedient, humble servant,
"WM. WAINWRIGET.

"To the Mayor of Liverpool."
Mr. Councillor BOLTON suggested that it should lie on the
table, as it did not immediately concern them.

The next memorial was on the subject of
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.

The following communication from Mr. Airey was then
read :

" Royal Observatory, Greenwich, Nov. 0, 1838.
"Sin,—The attention of government having been called
to the necessity of replacing the stairtlards of length and
weight destroyed at the conflagration of the houses of parlia-
ment, it has been thought desirable to ascertain whether
might be advantageous at the same time to make any new
enactments respecting weights and measures generally, and
for this purpose a committee has been appointed.

"It has been the first wish of the committee to ascertain
the judgment of practical men on this important subject,
and, in particular, to learn the opinions of the influential
bodies representing the commerce and manufactures of dif-
ferent parts of this empire.
" With the view of learning the opinion of the town council
over which you preside, I have the honour to enclose a series
of questions, and, in the name of the committee, I have to
request that you will lay them before the town council, and
that, as early as may be convenient, you will favour me with
their answer. I have also to request that you will oblige me
by mentioning the suggestions of the council relative to
points.which may have' been omitted in the series of questions.
" I have to be honour to be, sir,
"Your very obedient servant,
"To the Mayor of Liverpool." "G. B. AIREY.
It was suggested that the question should be referred to the
Town-clerk.

Mr. Alderman SHELL wished to know the object of referr-
ing it to the 'Town-clerk? He thought the question one of
great importance, and it ought perhaps to be taken into gene-
ral consideration, and the opinions of people interested in trade
be ascertained upon it. The weights and measures of this
country were certainly not in the best possible condition ;
and it was a question whether the inconvenience attending
any change would not balance any imprOvement. He would
suggest to the council whether it would not be better to take
up the whole subject on some day set apart for the purpose;
or, failing that, refer it to the Finance Committee, and let
them report. He ultiMately moved that it should be referred
to the Finance Committee.

Mr. Councillor T. HARVEY was of opinion that the com-
munication ought to be referred to the Market Committee.
Mr. Alderman EVA NS seconded the motion of Mr. Sheil.
He said that the alteration of their measures had put them
at variance with all their colonies and with the United States.
From some difference of drops of water, the bushel and gal-
lon had been altered, but for what purpose he could not
conceive. If he, might extend his observations, he might
also say that they had an injudicious alteration in the mea-
sureme.gl of ships.
The Motion of Mr. Sheil was carried.

The next was—
" The Memorial of the Inhabitan4s and Electors of Scotland

Ward,
' Showeth,—That we, several of the inhabitants and elec-
tors of Scotland Ward, beg leave to state to the town-council
that we view with considerable regret the proceedings of the
last meeting. After the clear and explicit declaration of
conservative principles which were manifested by the inhabi-
tants of this borough, we had a just ground of expectation
that they would have elected, at least, a few aldermen of
conservative principles. The gentlemen who compose the
dominant party in the present council were formerly loud in
their complaints against the former corporation for the sys-
tem of exclusion then prevalent; but no sooner do they ob-
tain ascendency in the present corporation 'than we observe
practised a- regular and determined mode of exclusion,
domination, and monopoly: not one single gentleman being
raised to the honour or dignity of alderman but those whose
political principles appear to be in perfect accordance with,
and in subjection to, what is termed the 'Reform Association.'
In the selection of your committees the same system of exclu-
sion is more fully organised and developed. We have looked
in vain for the name of the councillor last elected from our
own ward, but it does not appear in any of the committees.
We conceive that this gentleman has not only leisure, but is
possessed of talents which would have caused him to be an
useful member either of the Finance or Improvement Com•
mittees. We consider that a slight has thus been cast, not
only on outs, but also on St. Paul's and George Wards, by
your selection of committee-men.
We also most respectfully and earnestly recommend to
you, that you would instantly take into your consideration
what retrenchments can be made in the salaries of your pub,
lie officers, and likewise whether any means can be devised
for relieving the public funds from the enormous legal expen-
diture which so heavily presses upon thew.

. .
"'We have further to urge upon you the great impropriety
committed by a majority of your members Meeting in secret,
in which all your public acts are prejudged and predeter-
mined, causing your council chamber to be a mere place fogy
registering the determination and resolutions of a secret
conclave. •_ -

" We trust that you will take these matters into your seri-
ous consideration, and beg, gentlemen, to remain, most
respectfully, yours, &c.
(Here follow a number of signatures.) -
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE said-1 beg to move that that
memorial be not received. I consider it is a most unconsti-
tutional memorial, taking out of the hands of the council
their legitimate functions. It is not correct in its statements,
and as such I think I need not take up the time of the coun-
cil in enlarging upon it; but I feel it necessary from my own
experience as a councillor to move that that memorial be not
received by the council.
Mr. Councillor THORNHILL.—I—I—I—I beg to move
that—that—that is a petition from a portion of—of—of the
electors of Scotland Ward. must disclaim it al-
together as the memorial of the electors.
The MAYOR.—It is stated to be a memorial from the in-
habitants and electors of Scotland Ward.
Mr. Councillor THORNHILL.-'-I.—l—l—l disclaim it.
The Mavoit said he ought to explain; it was stated as
" from several of the inhabitants."
__

Mr. Councillor G. H. LAWRENCE.—That explains it.
Mr. Alderman C. H. JONES.—I second it. (We conjec-
ture he seconded Mr. Rathbone's motion.)
Mr. Councillor ISAAC HOLSIES.—I certainly conceive that
memorial is founded on fact. Can any one say that the al-
dermen already elected have not been of one particular set
sentiments?f Why at the last meeting all elected are un-
doubtedly known to he pledged to sentiments in accordance
with the principles of the Reform Association. Can this fact
be denied ? W hat did we see ? Six aldermen Teturning like
old cabs in new shells to their holes. They appeared some-
thing like the silkworm. They left their old cells, and in-
stantly they return, like one on angel's wings wafted here.
(Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) We saw that the aldermen pledged
to certain sentiments were immediately re-elected. As soon
as one gentleman's voting paper was returned the rest were
exactly similar. With respect to Everton Ward, the election
was said to be a triumph of reform; it ought to be said that
it was a triumph of friendship over principle. If the gentle-
man elected had said tie canvassed the votes of the electors
independent of party, instead of being elected by a majority
of six he would have been elected by a majority of 166. With
respect to the other matters alluded to in the petition, is it to
be denied that secret meetings were held, and the liberal part
of the council came predetermined what to do. The memo-
rial is founded on the evidence of facts, and it cannot be dis-
puted, and 1 beg leave therefore to move that the memorial
be received.

Mr. Councillor SHAND said that some of the expressions
in the memorial might be rather strone., but it ought to be
allowed to lie on the table. The system of electing aluermen
from one set ur party was too predominant, and the town
would never be satisfied unless that system were altered. The
memorial being, in his opinion, foutided upon fact, he should
beg to second the motion of Mr. I. Holmes.
Mr. Councillor Coot,En remarked that one part of the me-
morial referred to the appointment of committees, and he
appealed to the whole council whether gentlemen were not
excluded from many of them who were every way as able and
as honest as those who had been appointed. Such was the
fact, and he thought that, in common justice to the people
whom they represented, a different course of conduct ought
to have been pursued. They had acted upon a❑ exclusive
system, which he was sorry to see, and which, he could tell
them, would injure them materially in the eyes of the public.
It had been said frequently by gentlemen, "Do not permit
politics to interfere in the appointment of committees;" but
the gentlemen who had so exclaimed had.thewsetves acted
upon the very principle which they pretended to diScounte-
Dance. Were there nut gentlemen o►: that side of the house
as well able to do their duty as on the other? There were;
and yet persons had been, as it were, marked out, and alto-
gether excluded from the committees. He hoped, therefore,
that the public would express themselves in such a manner
as to show that they were indignant at such insulting pre-
ferences.

Mr. Councillor BOLTON could not help wondering at the
objections which had been urged to a course of conduct
which had been so sedulously followed by the conservatives
themselves. Had their predecessors in that chamber ever
elected men of different opinions to themselves? (Cries of
"Yes," and of "Mr. Currie" and "Mr. Earle.")
Mr. Alderman EARLE begged to say that when he was
elected no one knew his politics; fur he was at the time in
Italy. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. Councillor BOLTON went on to maintain that the old
council had invariably acted upon the principle which was
followed in the new. Even when the exclusive system was
losing ground in the nation at large, they (the old council)
still pursued the same course. When the act doing away
with the disabilities under which dissenters laboured was
passed, was there a single dissenter elected into the council?
No. And when the catholic emancipation bill was carried,
and catholics were admitted to all the rights of their fellow-
citizens, was a catholic elected by them ? (Cries of "No.")
He did not mean to palliate, he meant boldly to justify the
course which had been pursued in the election of aldermen.
The nation was in a state of transition ; and in the struggle
between the two great patties, every little superiority of the
one or the other was looked to as a criterion of the advance-
ment of the cause to which each belonged. Every advantage
was taken by the struggling parties; and he therefore should
say that the present system must be continued. In the elec-
tion of finance, watch, and other committees, he maintained
that no exclusive spirit had been manifested; but the mem-
bers of each party in them bore a proper relation to their
numbers in the council. It ought to be remembered, how-
ever, that there were people who, from. the obnoxious man-
ner in which they stated and supported their opinions, and
their impertinent interferences with Matteis which did not
concern them, made it evident were unfit to hold pikes as
members of a committee.

Mr. Alderman Sit lEL said that the crime which they (the
liberal members of the council) had committed teas in hav-
ing succeeded not in the principle which they had adopted;
because, if the gentlemen on the opposite side said that the
council had done wrong, then they must acknowledge that
their own party had done wrong. It was unfair and uncan-
did to get up in that room and complain of a line of conduct
which they themselves had followed, and followed too in the
election of aldermen for the council; for 14 of the conserva-
tives had voted fur Mr. Henry Lawrence. He would say of
him, however, that of his whole party they could not select a
gentleman who had performed his duties more generally to
The satisfaction of every one.. Mr. Shand asserted, that if
they pursued this line of conduct they would fail. He was
glad to see Mr. Shand so anxious that they should take a
line of conduct by which they would not fail.

Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN could not see that it would be
expressing any approval of the sentiments contained in the
memorial to allow it to lie on the table. He would not wil-
lingly go the length of rejecting any petition which was pre-
sented to them, unless it was couched in language which was
absolutely insulting. He should therefore beg to move that
the memorial lie on the table.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON seconded the amendment of Mr.
Blackburn.

Mr. Councillor RATHBONE should adhere to his original
motion, because it nas high time for the council to take its
independence into its own hands, That was not the only in-
stance in• which there had been an attempt at dictation,
an endeavour to trench upon the independence of the
council. Let it not be understood for a single moment
that he would attempt to stifle the expression of the
popular voice; he was under the proper influence of the
popular voice; but there was an essential difference between
the exercise of the popUlar voice out of doors, and an undue
interference in the affairs of the council. If the council were
to obtain. the respect of the people out of'doors, it must main-
tain its own respect within doors, and not be led by the one
hand or the other by the popular feeling. If any of the
wards did not do themselves honour in a selection of an indi-
vidual to the council, it was the duty of its members not to be
part and part in that degradation, by placing those gentlemen
upon committees. He would ask the respectable gentlemen
on the other side of the house whether there had been any
partiality exhibited in the appointment of committees, and
whether there were nut on them a greater proportion of con-
servatives than their numbers bore to those of the reformers ?
If such were the fact, and he thought it could not be contra-
dicted, it was rediculous to suppose that there had been any
partiality. At the same time, it would be a nonsensical act
indeed to put men on committes to carry out reforms which
they look upon, not as reforms but as destruction. They
must place on such committees men who looked upon the
changes proposed, or likely to be proposed,, as reforms, and
not as destruction. What would the reformers of Liverpool
say if they should put upon a committee a majority of conser-
vatives to carry out reforms whirls they were anxious to ef-
fect ? If they wanted a butler, would they put a groom in
his situation ? He was glad to see jealousies on the part of
the conservatives with respect to the "private meetings," as
they had been termed. It was a proof that those private
meetings worked well; and he would advise them (the re-
formers) not to abandon a system which had worked so well.
The affairs of the council were not, as had been stated, settled
in those private meetings. In resorting to them, they had
merely taken a leaf out of their opponents' books: and' he
thought that it would be better if they managed to keep the
meetings still more private. Their enemies were more care-
ful and cautious than the reformers, taking care that nothing
which took place at them should transpire. It would be going
rather strong against the constituency to reject their memo-
rial; but the independence of the council was at stake, and
it was for them now to say whether they would be interfered
with or not. In his opinion, whether it was an, alderman or
a committee that was to be appointed, the council were better
able to judge than the constituency out of doors. He would
vote upon such things as he thought would be for the good
of the town, and not to be a popularity hunter in affairs of
that kind.

Mr. Councillor IsAAc Hol-mEs rose; but was assailed with
loud cries of "spoke," and sat down.
The voting was then taken upon Mr. Blackburn's amend.
ment. For it there were 37; against it, 15,
The voting was as follows:
For thearnendment,—
_ _

Councillors—J. HoUales, W. Thornhill, Isaac Holmes, W.
Shand, W. Preston, T. Case, J. Barton, B. Frankland, G.
Wright, J. Mellor, 11. Holmes, T. Bolton, E. Pilcher, J.
Walinsley, J. Bibby, C. Lawrence, J. Cooper, J. Lawrence,
J. N. Wood, W. Lassen, T. Harvey, T. Blackburn, T, More-
croft, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence, J. S. Leigh, J. Platt, W.
M. Duncan, W.W. Currie, and the Mayor.
Aldermen—R. Shell, 'F. Leathom, G. Holt, R. Benn. J.
Moon, E. Evans, and W. P. :4'reme.
Against the amendment,
Councillors—J. Priestley, J.Woollright, W. Rathbone, V.
Higgins, J. Mason, E. Segar, and F. Jordan.
Aldermen—T. Booth, J. Hornby, C. H. Jones, W. Earle,
jun., T. B. Barclay. T. Bulley, 'l'. Holt, and E. Harvey.