The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1854-06-20 00:00:00

LIVERPOOL. WORKING MEN'S CHURCH

ASSOCIATION.

INTERESTING, EPISODE IN THE PROCEEDINGS.
A. MEETING of the Liverpool Working Men's Church
Association was held on Tuesday evening, in St. James's-
School-room, St. James's-road, the chair being occupied
by the Rev. H. Hampton, incumbent of St. James's. The
school-room was crowded; and among those present were
the Revs. Drs. M'Neire and Baylee; Revs. W. Pollock, H.
Hampton, E. Gabriel, L. Thomas,. J. Bardsley, J. Gilmore,
A. H. Hodgson, D. Barry, and J. 0. Powell ; Thomas
Houghton, Esq., Jas. Overend, &c. &c. The Rev.
E. Gabriel opened the business by prayer; after which the
chairman tendered his individual thanks and those of the
meeting to the Rev. Dr. Baylee, to whose exertions the
association owed its origin and its success.
The Rev. Dr. M`NEILE then proposed the following
resolution:—" That, feelinrmore strongly than ever the
necessity of supporting and extending among all classes
the sound Scriptural and: Protestant principles of our
reformed Church, we pledge• ourselves to encourage with
heart and hand the Liverpool Working Men's Church
Association, being assured it is-one of the safest and surest
means to promote that object." He proceeded to say that
some reproach had been thrown upon the manner in which
the clergy of Liverpool generally conduct their religious
services, and an attempt had: been made to spread an
impression that the cause of religion was not prospering
as it ought to do in the hands of the Liverpool clergy.
To that insinuation the existence and operation of this
association was a practical reply. This society, which
numbers 2,000 subscribers, has supplied money for
four additional clergymen in Liverpool by their weekly
pennies and twopences. He, doubted whether England
could supply such another example. This he maintained
was a blessing from God and a credit •to the town.
(Applause.) What was the object of this association ? As
expressed in the resolution, to extend amongst all classes
the Scriptural and Protestant principles of our reformed
church, To maintain the original principles of the truth
as it is revealed from heaven; but we have to express those
principles with direct reference to the abuse and the cor-
ruptions of that truth by ungodly men. And as the
Church of Rome has corrupted and abused the truth of
God, and still calls her corruption and abuse by
the name of the Church of God, we are compelled
to protest, in addition to our direct statement of
scriptural truth—to protest against evil, falsehood, and
idolatry. (Hear, hear.) In obedience to the command,
" Go into all the world and preach the gospel," we desire
to extend the good tidings of scriptural and Protestant
principles among all classes of the community. I think
the means already adopted by this association have been
honoured, blessed, and owned of God, and the promoters
of this society will hare reason to be most cordially thank-
ful. He knew that no man in England had more cause
to be thankful to God and take courage than Dr. Baylee.
When lie talked of establishing this poor man's associa-
tion, he (Dr. MWeile) remembered how some of his friends
laughed at his enthusiasm, and said " What a strange
compound that fellow is." (A laugh.) He was in earnest,
and facts now speak it, and some of the gentlemen who
smiled incredulous at that time were now convinced by
experience, and said that they must give Dr. Baylee credit
for what he had carried out. It was for the people to
carry it out further, aiid let every one become a missionary
in the movement. He then proceeded—You have all
heard of a free church intended for the town of Liverpool,
where they are to have prayers every day. They do not
say there is to be a sermon every day, but prayers every
day, and no pews in it, all open, first come first served.
(Laughter.) If a poor man goes in there, he has as good
a place as my lady. "To assist in promoting the erection
of a church, which, in addition to its many other claims,
is to be entirely.free to the poor." That is a capital thing,
and sounds uncommonly well. But, then, I think the
poor man who gives a penny or twopence a-week towards
a church has a right to ask—" Pray what do you mean by
this church; what sort of service are we to have in it ?
Will it be of the right kind when it is done ? Will it
have the scriptural and Protestant principles of our
reformed church, or will it be a sort of mongrel thing
going back and falling between two stools, neither out-
and-out Romish, so that people can really bow to an
image, nor out-and-out Protestant, so that we can hear
the gospel in it, but a sort of half-way house, a sort of
bowing and scraping, without going down on the knees
altogether. (Applause and hissing.) Did I hear a work-
ing man hissing that ? ("No, no," and " Yes.") Oh,
wonderful ! That would be a strange thing indeed in
this town. (Hear, hear.) I was going to tell you how
the Roman Catholics in earnest have the real thing in my
country. When they go down they go down on their
knees altogether before the picture. (Hear, hear.) But
there is a sort of half-way house they have made iu some
of the churches of England, and when these gentlemen, as
I am informed—for I never saw it myself—but I am in-
formed, when they come out of the vestry, and when
passing the communion table, they make a sort of obei-
sance. It is not kneeling down ; it is not worship, and
yet it is something. (Hear, hear.) What is it? Is it
worship ? Then let them bow themselves down before it !
at once. (Applause.) Is it not worship ? Then why will
they bow before it ? That is what we want to know—we
want to know what is this half-and-half procedure that
belongs to what is called Tractarianism. There is a mix-
ture of Romanism that has got into the Church of Eng-
land. Some of those who belonged to this party have left
the Church of England and joined the Church of Rome,
and the apprehension about this very same church is, if
the gentlemen building it had their own way, they might
make it a half-way house. (" Hear, hear," and hissing.)
We don't want that—you do not want that. (" Hear,
hear," and " Yes.") Do you want a Protestant church ?
(Cheers.) You want a house where the gospel is to be
made known. (Hear, hear.) Do you want a house where
there are to be prayers every morning without a sermon ?
(Cries of " Yes," and " No, no.") Well, let us have one,
then. (Cheers.)
A Voice.—No poor man can do it.
Another Voice.—There ought to be prayers every day in
church. (" Hear, hear," and interruption.) It is all stuff
what you are talking about. (Great confusion, and cries
of " Turn him out.") I work close to your church. I sun
Mr. Eaton's gardener. It is all stuff what you are talking
about. ("Hear, hear," and continued confusion and
uproar.) I am a subscriber to that church, and will double
my subscription. (Hear, hear.)
Dr. McNEILE.—I have a proposal to make, that the gen-
tlemen who promote such a scheme shall raise a fund—
The person who described himself as " Mr. Eaton's gar-
dener" again rose, and said—l live in the neighbourhood
of your church, and I was thankful a church was building
in the neighbourhood, until I came to hear the stuff that
was preached in it. (Cries of " Turn him out.")
The CIIAIRSIAN.—It is not very Christian-like of you to
interrupt the meeting.
The same Person.—There were many parts of your ser-
mons which were not right. (Cries of " Turn him out.',)
The CIIAIIIMAN.—If he will be kind enough to be quiet,
I would rather he should remain. He can speak after-
wards in reply. (A Voice : " Stuff.") I do think you
ought to be orderly. I will give you an opportunity of
speaking when the doctor has done. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Eaton's gardener.—l have lived near Dr. M`Neile's
church since it was built, and there never was a minister
in my house, and I live within 200 yards of it. (Hear.)
Dr. 111`Nsuar.—I was going to make a proposal that the
gentlemen who promote an object of this sort should raise
a fund for paying poor men a quarter of a day's wages in
the morning—(" Hear," and a cry, " There's no need of
it,")—in order to allow them time for this worship, with-
out interfering with their supplies for themselves and their
families. (" Hear, hear," and a continued cry, " There's
no need for it, and you know that.") However, I rejoice
to find that even at a meeting of the Working Men's Asso-
ciation for the purpose of raising funds for supporting
Protestant ministers—(hear, hear,)—l rejoice to find that
men of all opinions, of all descriptions of feeling on this
subject, do find their way to these meetings. I have no
doubt that great good will come out of this to the object
of this meeting, as we could scarcely have expected to have
found any one differing in opinion from what I was saying.
(Hear, hear.) But we do differ, and there is a great diver,
sity of opinion; but, at the same time, all joining in this
great work is an additional cause for thankfulness that
men differing on a great many points should come and join
in an association of this kind. (Interruption, and cries of
" Turn him out.") On no account put him out. Please
not to interfere with him. (Hear, hear.) If you imagine
I am in the slightest degree!annoyed by what he has said,
it is quite a mistake—not at all. The only objection to it
is, it wastes the time of the meeting. (Hear, hear.) He
is an honest fellow to speak out his mind, if he had a
right opportunity to do so, instead of interrupting the
speaker. Let him come forward, and Mr. Hampton will
give him an opportunity of speaking.
The party alluded to.—Very well, I will. (Cheers).
Dr. 31'NBILE.—Wait a little. (" Hear, hear," and a
laugh.) lam really so anxious to hear what our friend
has to say in opposition to anything I have said to you,
that I shall conclude now, and I will be ghul if lie re-
deems his pledge and comes forward' and says what he
pleases on the subject. (Hear, hear).
The party alluded to then came on the platform, and, in
reply to a question from the chairman, stated his name to
be Josara HANMER, of Whitfield-street. He said—" I am
a true Churchman—(hear, hear),—and I was one of the
first men who subscribed to this society we have met
about to-night. I paid my twopence a-week. (Hear,
hear.) I have subscribed towards building this new
church—(hear, hear)—because I had lived a long time in
sin and drunkenness, and never went to church, and 1 had
no learning. I was a widow's son, and I could not read
when I was forty years old. What little I have learned
to read is since 1 became a teetotaller; and I learned it
at home, in my own house. (Hear, hear.) I have been
in the habit of going to the Church of England ever since
that time, eighteen years ago—(hear, hear)—and I have
never been in any other place of worship, and I have no
desire to go to any other place. (Hear, hear.) lam a
willing subscriber—l love the Church, and am willing to
spend and be spent for Christ—(applause)—and it hurts
my feelings very much when I hear one church minister
rising up to speak against another, his brother. (Loud
applause.) That is what hurts me, and nothing else—
only that. (Hear, hear.) We are told not to speak evil
of one another. (Hear, hear.) I -learned that since I
commenced to read and became sober. We ought not to
judge of one another, or speak evil, but to love one
another; and do good to one another, as far as lies in our
power. (Hear, hear.) I hope you will forgive me."
(Hear, hear.)
Dr. MlsTau.s. Forgive you! you have given a most
hard knock on the head to those who have begun and
abused us. (Great applause and laughter.) [Mr. Hamner :
No, sir.] We have been assailed. We are not the assail-
ants, I quite agree with my friend: (Hear, hear.) It is
quite an improper thing for one church minister to stand
up and speak against another. (Hear, hear.) I would be
extremely sorry to enter into such a proceeding had we
not been assailed. It has been declared in the newspapers
that the clergymen of the Church of England in Liverpool
are not conducting the Church rightly—(A voice : " No
more they arn't," and confusion)—and that another
church must be built to show us the way. Is not that
attacking us ? We aro iu self-defence, and I quite agree
with my friend. (Hoar, hear.) See what comes of dis-
cussion—isn't it a Om thing; oh, a beautiful thing
(Laughter.)
The CliiIILMAII.—Allow me to mention that the church
for which that gentleman is subscribing is the one we
how to raise for the Rev. Mr. Gabriel. Is it not ?
Mr. lissmau..—No, it is not. It is the poor man's
church, where there will he service every day, I hope I