The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-10-27 00:00:00

£4761 0 0

Mr. LEATHOM moved that the report of the town-clerk
be adopted.
Mr. BENN seconded the motion.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE had no objection to the town-clerk's
report, but he thought this was a proper occasion to ask the
cause of all this hurry on the part of the dock committee to
force this application on the notice of the council ? It cer-
tainly appeared very strange that they who were approaching
the last stage of their municipal existence should be called
upon to sanction, now, this important application. Had he
not known the promoters of the bill to be gentlemen who
had hitherto boasted in their firm and strong reliance upon
the constituency, he should have thought that they were ap-
prehensive that the result of the election on Monday next
was likely to interfere with the success of the measure. Be
that, however, as it might, he thought it was not too much
to ask them, as they were accustomed to pay so much defe-
rence to their constituencies and to popular opinion, to pause
a little—to request them to postpone their proceedings at
least for a fortnight or three weeks. He declared he was
not unfriendly to the bill in its general features, that he was
anxious to have the question settled, and that he was desirous
of sparing the town another protracted struggle in parlia-
ment, and its concomitant expenses. He thought, therefore
that all this would be best attained by asking them to pursue
the course of fairness which he now proposed. (Cries of
" move, move.") He intended to move. He was satisfied
that the attempt to obtain the bill, in its present shape, would
he in vain, and that it would give fresh arguments and fresh
hostility to their opponents in parliament. With these feel-
ings he should move, as an amendment, that the further con-
sideration of this question be adjourned to this day three
weeks.
Mr. BUSHELL seconded the amendment. Entertaining
as he did similar opinions to those of Mr. Lawrence, he was
not opposed to the erection of warehouses, or to the leading
principles contained in the bill ; but with Mr. Lawrence be
thought the promoters of it were forcing it upon the council,
at their very last meeting, when they could gain nothing by
it—for they did not gain a single day. They had given the
dock rate-payers an opportunity of expressing their opinions
upon the measure, and why should they now deprive the
burgesses, [rate-payers Mr. Bushell said] as a body of the
same privilege—those who would have to pay all the expense
of it ? Before the burgesses had had an opportunity of
forming their opinion, would they go on forcing the bill, at
this late period of " the session,' so to speak, upon the
council? If the opinion of the town was fbund to be in
favour of the measure, thay might then go before parliament
with more power and effect, and opposition,:after their deci-
sion would be a warehouse owner 'a opposition. In order,
therefore, to ascertain the sentiments of the burgesses, it
would be better to postpone the bill till after the coming
election.
Mr. EvANs said that in speaking to the amendment he
should reserve his right to speak afterwards on the dock
warehouse question generally. The amendment involved
only an isolated proposition. He had heard the arguments
of Mr. Lawrence and Mr. Bushell, and nothing in the world
could be stronger in favour of going on with the bill than
what they had said. They had used every argument they
could to show the propriety of going on, yet still they called
out for more delay. He should be glad to know upon what
ground this council was to acknowledge its inability to pro-
ceed ? Was not the present council as good a council as
that which preceded it, and had they not a fair right to con-
sider themselves as good a coun Id as that which would exist
after the Ist of November? He could not therefore, see
the slightest reason why they should not go on, because this
was an election not of the whole council—whichl would offer
a very different argument,—but an election of only sixteen
be remembered,
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called upon them to delay in deference to the very men who
had already decided it.
Mr. BUSIIELL.—No, no.

Mr. EVANS.—They had unquestionably decided the ques-
tion at the very election to which Mr. Bushell had alluded.
Mr. BUSHEEL.—When I spoke of the rate-payers I meant
the burgesses ; I could not have meant any other.
The MAYOR explained that Mr. Bushell had first spoken
of the dock rate-payers, and had subsequently called the bur-
gesses rate-payers. The burgesses were what he meant.
Mr. EvANs said he had misunderstood Mr. Bushell. He
then proceeded to say, that literally it was not possible for
the council to come to any other decision than that to which
it had already arrived. Let the coming election go how it
might, it could not possibly produce any change iu the votes
of the council on this question. There must be a majority
pledged to warehouses and Dock Committee management.
It had been observed that this was not haste without utility,
for every one who knew anything about parliamentary pro-
ceedings, knew that the requisite notices must be given within
a certain time.
The MAYOR said the question might be easily settled.
The Town-clerk informed him that it could, not be delayed
without rendering it impossible to bring the bill forward in
the next session.
The TOWN-CLERK stated that the standing orders of the
last session required that notice should be given of the inten-
tion to apply for the act three successive weeks in October
and November, or either of them, in one or more of the
newspapers of the county, and in the London Gazette,
and that the notice for the Gazette be delivered two clear
days before the day of insertion. The Ist of the next
month being Sunday, there would not be time if there was
any_delay.
Mr. LAWRENCE replied that he could easily remove this
difficulty by altereing his amendment thus : " That the fur-
ther consideration of the recommendation of the Dock Com-
mittee, on the subject of the intended Dock Bill, be post-
boned 'till Monday, the 15th of November, the committee
having permission to give the regular notices."
The TOWN-CLERK—That will do.
Mr. COGLAN, after having observed that it was more fit for
the present than for any future council to decide the ques-

. .
tions, expressed his conviction that the next election would
be favourable to the propositions of the dock committee.
Mr. COOPER should suppport the amendment, in the hope
that the worthy Alderman (Mr. Evans) who had already put
his hand so deeply into the public pocket to carry his favo-
rite project, would see the necessity of settling the question
in Liverpool and not in London. He knew that he had the
whole of the parish authorities against him on the rate pay-
ing classes ; he knew that he might settle the ware-house
• question in a manner satisfactory to the town, and if he in-
tended to disarm opposition to the bill he ought to settle it
in Liverpool rather than London. There were in the pre-
sent bill the very same clauses which last year created oppos-
sition from the churchwardens and highway-board—to whom
the town was greatly indebted for their conduct on that oc-
casion. ;Under these circumstances he (Mr. Cooper) wished
some arrangement, satisfactory to the public, would be come
to with all the parties concerned; if not, he was satisfied—
another £ll,OOO would be spent without the bill being ob-
tained.
Mr. J. S. LEIGH concurred in the views expressed by Mr.
Lawrence, and he should support the amendment.
Mr. SMITH also supported the amendment.
Mr. GEORGE HOLT expressed his conviction that the op-
posion to the bill was a warehouse owners' opposition, and
nothing, else ; and that the subject of warehouses onthe dock
quays had long ago been decided to be highly desirable.
Mr. JOHN HOLMES observed that there seemed to
be no objection to the giving of the usual parliamentary
notice. Now, he wished to know whether the bill, when It
was in parliament, would not have to come before the coun-
cil again? If so, there was no use in discussing the question
now.

The MAYOR believed it would not.
The TOWN-CLERIC added that the bill would not have to
come before the council again. If the committees to whom
especial references were made, should have occasion to report,
as they would have, upon those references, their reports
would come before the council, but the bill would not. It
was, however, in the power of the council to supersede pro-
ceeding with the bill.

Mr. RATHBONE thought the present council best able to
discuss the the provisions of the measure, and if the next
should disapprove of the bill, it would be very easy for them
to withdraw it. At present, they were splitting straws and
discussing trifles.

Mr. Hum" HORNBY said if he thought that by the discus-
sion to-day the council were depriving the burgesses of an
opportunity of corning to a decision. upon this question, he
would vote for the amendment ; but as it would be in the
power of the then council to stop the progress of the bill if it
should think proper, he should support the original motion.
He thought it only right that the present council, which had
so much to do with this vezata questio, should give its opini-
on upon it before the next election.
Mr. IsAnc HOLMES conceived that there had been in-
decent haste in bringing this question forward. In the course
of a few days the present council would be no more, and it
was rather too much to call upon them when they were in
the pangs and throes of dissolution, to give their opinion
upon the bill. He felt very confident that a great alteration
would soon be made in its complexion. The worthy alder-
man (Mr. Evans) had observed that the election would only
be of sixteen ; true, but he had forgotten that at the last
election there were three ties, in consequence, of which three
gentlemen holding radical sentiments, were placed in the
council. The whole majority, .by which the bill had been
carried was only five ; therefore, it had been carried by those
three individually ; for if three conservative votes had been
given, there would have been a majority of one against the
measure. Several of the wards too had appealed against this
question, namely, Abercrombie, Rodney-street, Pitt-street,
and St. Pauls, therefore he conceived the council were
wasting time uselessly in arguing upon a measure, which
whatever might be its fate to-day, would be in some respects
changed and altered.. Like the Chinese puzzle they were
playing at putting it together, merely to take it down again,
if they now discussed the bill, as &any of the clauses would
be altered. Already had £ll,OOO and upwards been ex-
pended for this gingerbread measure, as it bad been justly
called. The term, indeed, was a just one, for it had been
ginger to the council and leypayers, and bread to the lawyers
and hotel keepers.
Mr. BOLTON said the question was this, whether the pre-
sent council familiarized as it was with the subject should
now decide upon it or wait two or three weeks for the deci-
sion of those who were strangers to it. In the name of com-
mon sense, then, he pronounced this the best council to ar-
rive at a correct decision. The gentlemen who urged the
propriety of delay, no doubt calculated upon the advantage
they would enjoy if new members of their party should be re-
turned. Now he contended that if the discussion were
longer delayed, it would be impossible from want of time to
do justice to the subject. That was one strong reason for
going on, and another was, that the council having been
summoned specially, had come prepared to decide the ques-
tion. The common sense, therefore, of the motion was, to
proceed now.
_ _

MR. W. W. CURRIE entirely concurred in the view put
forth by Mr. Hornby and added that as it was most impor-
tant to gain time he was in favour of the council proceedings.
MR. FREME askcd the town clerk whether it would be
competent for any member in the new council to move that
the bill be discontinued

The TOWN CLEltK.—Certainly. The committee of docks,
with regard to this measure was the same as any other com-
mittee of the council, and it was in the power of the council
upon regular notice to put an end to their authority to pro-
ceed with the bill.

Ain. G. H. LAWRENCE then rose to reply. He had no
doubt that this council was not precluded- from discussing
the question, but there would have been a greater possibility
and prospect of arranging the matter amicably if the bill had
not been attempted to be forced upon it.
The MAYOR then put the question when there appeared—
For the Amendment 12
Original motion 33

Majority 21
For—Messrs. J. Holmes, I Holmes, Houghton, Wright,
Cooper, Robinson, Wood, Bushell, Rigby, G. H. Lawrence,
Leigh, Smith.
Against—Messrs. Thornhill, Case, Frankland, Mellor,
Pilcher, Bolton, Priestley, Woolwright, Bright, Rathbone,
H. Hornby, Yates, Lassell, Morecroft, Coglan, Platt,
Kee, Jordan, Duncan, Currie, Mather, Booth, J. Hornby,
Roskell, Leathom, G. Holt, Benn, Moon, Evans, Barclay,
T. Holt, Freme, the Mayor.
Absent—Messrs. Hodgson, Quayle, Preston, Sandbach,
Barton, Sands, H. Holmes, J. Lawrence, .1. Lawrence,
Carson, Gladstone, Blackburne, Seger, Jones, Shiel, Jones,
Earle, Bulley, E. Harvey.
The TOWN CLERK then proceeded to read the several
clauses in the bill, which were all agreed to without discus-
sion. After he had concluded, some conversation took place
between Mr. Pilcher, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Benn, Mr. Evans,
and others, on some clauses which ended in those clauses
being referred to the committee.
The Towrr OLERK, after the whole bill had been gone
through, said that it was right that he should mention, that
the clauses had been struck out of the present bill. which
were in the last, giving the dock committee power to let the
warehouses to be erected on the quays to private companies.
A formal resolution, drawn up in strict legal form, was
then adopted by the council, approving of the bill, and autho-
rizing the dock committee to take the necessary measures for
converting it into law.
The council then separated.