The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-07-10 00:00:00

seconded the motion. He observed
y Was large, a depot in a similarly ad-

ley WOU

her vise

vamageuut situation was necessary, °L—
ear an annual loss of £4OO for extra cartage.
Mr. IsnAc HOLMES remarked that a portion of the land
purchased ,with borrowed funds was to be leased, and lie
wished to know whether the rents derived from that were to
be accounted as a part of the corporation income. If so, it
would always be in the power of the corporation to exhibit a
surplus income. They had only to buy £lOO,OOO worth of
property with borrowed money, lease it off for periods of 75
years, and add the rents to the income. This had been the
course hitherto pursued ; what had been received as the rent
of leased property had been put down as income; and thus
gave rise to a delusion. Under the municipal act, they were
only justified in expending their income in certain ways; and
if they were not able to pay for certain specified objects, they
were empowered to. raise a borough fund; but they had no
right whatever to purchase land with borrowed money, and
claim the rents of the leased portions thereof as so much in-
come. He should propose that in future what was really in-
come should be placed down as such, and that what was not
such should be received and appropriated to the extinguish-
in.?: of the borrowed debt.

Mr. CURRIE, in reply, said that whatever application the
remarks of Mr. Holmes might have to the manner of keeping
the corporation accounts, they had nothing to do with the
present subject. Mr. Holmes, however, seemed to have
forgotten that since the passing of the municipal reform act
and the borough fund act, the corporation were empowered
to act in this manner. All that-they had to do was to show
that there was enough to pay the interest of the borrowed
money, and to provide a sinking fund of two per cent. In
the present instance this course had been strictly pursued.
The TOWN-CLERK, in addition to this, stated,that;,by the
borough fund act, the proceeds of all sales, and the amount
if fines for leases, in cases within the borough fund act, were
:o be applied in payment of the money borrowed. • •
The motion was then carried.

Mr. CURRIE then proposed that, in the memorial to the
.ords of the treasury, asking per►►►ission for the corporatio►►
:o borrow, there should be inserted, in addition to the amount
or the depot, the sum of £6991, as the purchase-money for
he land, &c. for. the new market in Gill-street. This was
:onsidered as one of the items of expense which it was not
ust to allow to fall exclusively on the present time. It did
►ot follow that the council would avail themselves of the
►rivilege of borrowing to the full extent for which they were
about to ask permission—namely, £6o,ooo—but it was thought
advisable that they should get the power.
This motion having been adopted,
Mr. CURRIE proceeded to mention that the amount of
C 13,480 for the depot, and of £6991 for the intended new
narket, were the points that had been reserved for the con-
ideration of the council, previous to bringing forward the
statement of the funds which it was necesary to get'authority
o borrow. That statement was as follows :

.±: s. d

Birkenhead, first and second purchase.. 473,800
One-third
Third purchase of land
Houses per valuation

24,600 0 0
£1,690
2,000

3,690 0 0

The Fort—the purchase.
One-third
The Observatory, erection and outfit ..
Land for Lighting and Cleansing Com-
mittee—the whole purchase
Works thereon .

£27,850

9,283 6 8
2,000 0 0

£12,480
1,000

-13,480 0 0

The land, &c., forZthe new market in
Gill-sfreet

6,991 0 0

4 6 8
Mr. Currie concluded by proposing that a memorial to
the lords of the treasury should be drawn up, asking for
permission to borrow the various sums above specified, and
that a copy thereof should be posted in front of the Town-
hall
-for the space of a month.

Mr. BOLTON seconded the motion, and suggested that the
different sums should be moved seriatim.
Mr. CURRIE said that had not been thought necessary.
Mr. BOLTON replied that such was the practice of parlia-
ment, and he thought it was a good one.

Mr. CURRIE accordingly moved the items separately, and
they were all agreed to without opposition.

BOTANIC GARDEN

Mr. LASSELL then brought forward the motion of which
he had given notice. It proposed that the Finance Com-
mittee should be instructed to reconsider their former reso-
lution—to the effect that they could not recommend any
grant of the public funds to the Botanic Garden, unless the
garden were thrown open to the public on Sundays, and to
consider whether some grant might not be made in consi-
deration of the garden having now been open for the admis-
sion of the public on two days in every week. Mr. L. assell
said that it was the duty of every government to provide for
the health and recreation of the people, and there could be
no doubt that the opening of the Botanic Garden on two
(lays in the week was a very great advantage to the public.
He could inform the council on good authority, that from
the Bth ult. up to Monday last, at least 35,000 persons had
visited the garden; and he should say from the observations
he himself made, when present one evening, that one-half
of the visitors then in the gardens belonged to the working
classes. It might also be mentioned that by the opening
of the garden to the public an expellee of 20s. a week was
incurred. He alluded to the grant of £lOO to the Royal
Institution, on account of the museum having been opened
to the public twice in the month, and could not see why a
similar boon should not be granted to the Botanic Garden,
especially as the latter was opened eight times in the month,
and afforded an equal amount of gratification to the eye,
whilst it also tended to the promotion of health. He con-
cluded by stating that he should name no sum, for the pur-
pose of avoiding all discussion.
Mr. CURRIE, for the purpose of raising the discussion,
seconded the motion.

Mr. BOLTON thought that any grant of money by the
council to to the proprietors of the Botanic Garden, for ad=
mating the public, ought to be looked upon by them in the
light of an insult. The family of Mr. Yates had for many
years opened their grounds to the public ; hut in what light
would Mr. Yates look upon a proposition that a pecuniary
allowance should on that account be made to him ? He
thought that the clergy, the gentlemen, and the ladies, co►n-
posing the proprietary of the Botanic Garden, could not have
blunter feelings than the family of Mr. Yates. The Finance
Committee had already passed a resolution, adopted by the
council, that unless the garden was opened on Sundays they
could not concede any grant ; and until that resolution was
rescinded the Finance. Committee could net stir. He thought
the subscribers to the Botanic Garden should put their hands
into their pockets, and at once free the concern from debt;
for that method• must ultimately be resorted to, unless, i►►-
deed, they chose to borrow money, and pay the interest
thereon. He himself would rather pay his proportion of the
interest than solicit the aid of the town.
Mr. SITEIL expressed his surprise that, without any change
of circumstances, this subject should have again been brought
forward, and seconded by the chairman of the Finance Com-
mittee—of that body which only two months ago passed a
resolution, that, unless the gardens were opened on Sundays
the public could not derive any benefit which would warrant
a grant from the council. A number of persons might have
visited the gardens ; but it was a delusion to suppose that
the great body of the people would be able to attend, except
on Sundays. Mr. Lassell had alluded to the danger of the
establishment being sold if assistance were not rendered to
it, and had said that the whole property of the gardens was
vested in the proprietors. Now, if such were the case, the
old proprietors had sadly neglected their duty. But he
maintained that Mr. Lassell was incorrect; for, the moment
the land ceased to be used for the purpose of a botanic gar-
den, it reverted to the corporation. To prove this position,
Mr. Sheil briefly sketched the history of the institution,
stating that, when the old site, of which the corporation had
granted a lease, was allowed by them to be disposed of ; the
money thus raised (X 72,000) was appropriated to the pur-
poses of the new garden, and that, in consideration thereof,
the corporation were to have a reversionary interest, in ca-e
the new site ever ceased to be employed as a botanic garden.
The whole property was therefore, in fact, lodged in the pub-
lic, and yet the committee had made a great business of
letting the people walk in the garden two days a week. Mr.
Sheil then went on to argue, that the contrary decisions come
to at the meetings of the proprietors showed that they could
not be depended upon from one day to another, and that the
opening of the gardens on week-days was no boon to the
great mass of the people. He should therefore oppose the
motion.

Mr. JOHN SMITH said that when lie retlectedon how many
occasions he had heard Mr. Sheil advocate the propriety,
nay, the absolute necessity, of the council administering to
the wants of the poorer classes of the inhabitants, he could
not but feel very much surprised at the line of argument
adopted by him on the present occasion. If those sentiments
were responded to by the council, the poor must in a great
measure be prevented from attending the gardens at all.
Because there were persons conscientiously opposed to open-
ing the gardens on Sundays ; because, forsooth, Mr. Sheil
could not carry his favourite measure of throwing it open on
Sundays, he, in the plenitude of his regard for the poor man,
would go to the greatest length to deprive that man of any
participation in the advantages held out by the garden. (No,
no.) He (Mr. Smith) said yes, yes. It was absurd for Mr.
Sheil, or any other man in the council to argue that the poor.
er classes could not find time to visit the Botanic Garden on
week days. One fact was better than many assertions. He
himself went one evening, and he found there thousands of
the poorer inhabitants of the town enjoying with delight and
thankfulness the benefit of exercise and fresh air. Consider-
ing that the proprietors had opened the garden to the public
without in the first place stipulating for any grant, he thought
that the council would not be acting in the same spirit if they
did not give £lOO or £2OO a year to hinder that valuable in-
stitution from mouldering into decay.

Mr. YATes also begge-d leave to say that Mr. Shell was
mistaken on the point of the attendance of the working
classes. He (Mr. Yates) was at the garden one evening, and
he left at I quarter to eight. There were about 6000 persons
present tht evening, and he examined them in order that he
might judge whether they were rich or poor. There were few
of what curd be called the rich ; but there were a great num-
ber with decent clothes on; and perhaps one half of the whole
number were of the working classes. Now, this was a change
of the cicumstances under which the previous resolution had
been adopted by the council. It was then thought that the
working classes would not be able to attend on the week days •,
but it Nsas now found as a matter of fact that they did go, and
he should therefore vote for the motion. He certainly thought
with Nr. Bolton that it would be better if the proprietors
would release the institution from embarrassment by their own
means but Mr. Bolton ought to recollect that all men were
not blessed with a heart so liberal as his own.
TheTOWN-CLERK here mentioned that he had been out of
the ram to make inquiries respecting the statements made
by NE Shell, and he found that, when the old site of the
Botaric Garden was about to be abandoned, -the proprietors
applied for a new lease for 75 years, free of cost, in order
that hey might dispose of the land, and apply the proceeds
to tle forming of the new Botanic Garden, in consideration
of wiich it was proposed that the reversion of the new pro-
pert( should be vested in the corporation—that is, so far
as ti secure that the land should be used for a Botanic Gar-
den in failure of which it was to go to the corporation.
Wlether that proposal was legally carried into effect or not,
he_muld not say.

hlr. Alderman EARLE, notwithstanding what had been
sail to the contrary, thought it bad been clearly proved by
M.. Sheil, that the working-classes could not now go to the
gallen. A few, residing in the vicinity, might find their way
titre, and perhaps a portion of the families of the poor; but
tlt great bulk of the people, in the north, the south, and the
cmtre of the town, were practically excluded. He denied
fiat it was on religious grounds that the great bulk of the

proprietors had obJecte fi the opening of the garden on th
Sunday.

Mr.- RontrisoN thought it very inconsistent in the pro
prietors retaining to themselves the privilege of visiting tit
gardens on Sundays, whilst they refused to open them to th,

and closing thi

oppose any grant

gardens entirely on the Sunday, Ire—shOif

SAJctis mentioned that there was a notice of motion
on the books for closing the gardens on Sunday to the pro-
prietors.

Mr. COGLAN said that it was with him a question whether,
if the council did not step forward with assistance, the in-
stitution • would not languish, and the town be deprived of
the benefit and honour of cultivating an important and de-
lightful branch of science. Under this consideration, it
might be wise in the council to grant a sum of (say) £lOO
a-year, until the institution could be placed on a pro,-
- . -
Footing. A''' ' 'nubr

__ithough he was of opinion that the public did not
now derive all the advantage they might, still the throwing
open of the garden for two days in each week had been a
benefit to some portion of the public. He, therefore, to a
cr taro ex, st, went for Mr. I mot:— he

-emit. ..,,enu, .• _. ....asst —ion, though
should like to see the gardens opened on Sundays.
Mr. BLACKBURNE observed, that if the present motion
had been introduced in the first instance, he should have voted
for it ; but, under the present circumstance, he should not,
's the council were bound to act with something like con-

aistency, and not vacillate in this manner

Mr. Cuiuua said he did not think that at this time the
council had anything to do with the point of opening the
gardens on Sunday. The only point was, should they, if
they could not do what many thought desirable in their own
minds, refuse to do anything? If they could not do it in
what they considered the most desirable way, ought if not to
be done to the greatest possible extent? He should not like
to see an institution founded by, and connected with the name
of one of our most celebrated men, Roscoe, fall to the ground.
He was disposed to let the matter go to the Finance Com-
mittee.

Mr. HODGSON said that there seemed to be an impression
in the council, that there was a desire on the part of the sub-
scribers to the Botanic Garden to escape from a burden which
ought to rest on their own shoulders. But the fact was. that
the present motion had originated with the council. There
was before them no application from the Botanic Garden
Connnittee, or from the proprietors, in any shape or form.
The council were simply asked to consider the matter with
reference to their own position. He subscribed to the Bota-
nic Garden in the same manner as to any other public insti-
tution ; but he did not, in doing so, mean to give indefinitely ;
and such, no doubt, was the feeling and position of the great
body of proprietors. He thought that, if the funds would ad-
mit of it, -the council might, with great propriety, appropriate
a small sum to the garden.

Mr. LASSELL replied, and in allusion to what had been
said by Mr. Earle, observed that Monday was generally a
holiday amongst the working classes.
Mr. EA ItLt.—Yes, because they get so drunk on Saturday
night and Sunday, that they cannot go to work on the Mon-
day.

the council then went to the vote.
, For the motion 2B
Against it l4
Majority in favour of the motion —l4
For the motion—D. Hodgson, J. Holmes, Isaac Holmes,
R. Houghton, W. Preston, T. Sands, H. Holmes, R. Bright,
E. Pilcher, J. Priestley, H. Hornby, R. V. Yates, W. Las-
sell, J.. Cooper, H. Lawrence, R. Gladstone, C. Bushell, T.
Morecroft, R. Rigby, T. Coglan, R. Jones, jun., G. H.
Lawrence, J. Smith, and W. W. Currie ; Aldermen C. H.
Jones, T. B. Barclay, I'. Bulley, and T. Holt.
Against it—T. Bolton, W. Rathbone, T. Robinson, J. N.

Wood, I'. Blackburn, E. Segar, W. M"Kee, F. Jordan,
W. M. Duncan; Aldermen It. Sheil, J. Hornby, W. Earle,
W. Fretne, and the Mayor.

Absent—G. Quayle, W. Thornhill, T. Case, H. IL Sand-
bach, B. Frankland, G. Wright, J. Barton, J. Mellor, J.
Woo!right, J. Lawrence, J. Carson, J. S. Leigh, J.,Platt,

D. Mather, and T. Booth ; Aldermen R. Roskell, G. Holt
T. Leathom, R. Benn, J. Moon, E. Evans, and E. Harvey
The council terminated at half-past twelve.

MEETING OF THE DOCK COMMITTEE

The usual weekly meeting of the members of this com-
mittee was held yesterday in the Dock-office, Revenue
Buildings. The following members were present :—Messrs.
Barclay, T. Holt, Yates, Holmes, Segar, Bulley, G. Holt,
Dixon, Martin, Smith, Horsfall, and Gladstone. In the ab-
sence of the chairman and deputy-chairman, Mr. Barclay
was appointed to preside.

The' 'weekly accounts were read and ordered to be paid
PROPOSED FOOT BRIDGE.

The CIIAIRMAN said the first business before the com-
mittee was the consideration of the memorial presented last
week from certain ratepayers in Seacombe, Egremont, and
New Brighton, for certain facilities of passage to and from
ferry-boats belonging to those places. This memorial had
been referred to the marine surveyor, for him to report as to
the practicability of affording additional accommodation. A
report was now read from that officer, suggesting that a foot-
bridge be erected over the south gut of the Prince's Dock, in
the position represented on an accompanying plan. The re-
port gave no estimate of the probable expense.
In the course of a short conversation it was stated that the
marine surveyor was in London, and the subject, therefore,
was postponed till his return.