The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-11-02 00:00:00

Mr, Sugit., said that, having been personally alluded to by
one of the gentlemen who had just addressed the council, he
thought it necessary to trouble them with a few remarks. In
the first place he begged to ask what the language was which
he had made use of, and which, it was said, should have been
stopped by the chair ? . .

Mr. HODGSON rose, but
Mr. SHEIL refused to give way. He would have the exact
language, because he had never sought protection from the
chair, and now that he was about to retire from the council,
he would not allow the matter to rest unexplained.
Mr. HODGSON begged to be permitted to say one word.

Mr. SHELL requested of the gentleman to keep himself as
quiet as possible. (A laugh.) He knew that it was a diffi-
cult matter for some men to keep themselves quiet, but he
begged of Mr. Hodgson to try the experiment that time.
(Renewed laughter from the radicals.) He would not retire
from the council without having an opportunity afforded him
for defending himself and explaining any language of which
he might have made use. At the same time he was uncon-
scious of having used any unbecoming language, and he
hoped he had never been so far forgetful of what was due to
himself and the council as to ba guilty of such . a charge.
But again he asked—what was the language ?
_ _ _

Mr.HonGsoN said he had made no such charge. He had
told Mr. Shell before that he found no fault with the lan-
guage he had used. (Hear.)
Mr. SuEll, proceeded to say Mr. Hodgson was so excita-
ble a creature that he permitted himself to be carried away
to such an extent—so wrapped up was he in his own views,
and so overpowered was his understanding—that, no matter
what the language used might be, he applied it to himself.
(Laughter from the conservatives.) He (Mr. Shell) was
glad to see Mr. Hodgson's friends in such good humour.
But Mr. Hodgson had no patienee ; be never allowed his
judgment to act, but he always supposed that he was alluded
to when a man might have no more idea of alluding to him
than he had of alluding to the man in the moon. (Laugh-
ter.) In mentioning the man in the moon, he hoped that
Mr. Hodgson would not suppose that he alluded to him for
a single moment. (Continued laughter.)
The Cu AlRMAN—Address yourself to me, if you please,
not the council.

Mr. SHELL admitted that they were a little disorderly on
the occasion ; but, as it was the last time they would ever
meet again, it was, perhaps, somewhat allowable. (Hear,
and laughter.) Again he wished to know the language ; and,
in putting the question, he alluded, not to Mr. Hodgson,
but to Mr. Birkett.

Mr. BIRKETT—You said certain persons were insane, and
such language as that was certainly anything but correct.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Swett, admitted that he had made a general assertion
that some were insane on the subject of religion, and that
their winds were warped ; but Mr. Hodgson had not spoken
at the time, and why the gentleman should suppose that he
(Mr. S.) alluded particularly to him was his affair. He
hoped he would explain that satisfactorily. He was glad to
have the present opportunity of explaining what he said,
and the circumstances under which he had said it; for it
must then be clear that the mayor could not have called him
to order for having made use of a general assertion. (Hear.)
The statistical returns showed that more men had been sent
to mad-houses for having lost their reason on religious sub-
jects than any other. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear." With
respect to the long rigmarole from Mr. Birkett, what had it
amounted to ? Simply this :—that he was out of order so
often the mayor had to call him to it. (A. laugh.) The coun-
cil would never sanction the mayor in putting down any man
if he were not out of order. With respect to Mr. Harbord,
who hed been the cause of the whole proceedings, *hat were
the circumstances ? That gentleman had got up and asked a
question, the bearing of which was, to draw a distinction be-
tween the members of the council. (Uproar.)
Mr. HARBORD.—FaIse. It is not right to have state-
ments of this kind go before the public which are not true.
(Hear.) I asked the question for
.the purpose of being
guided in my vote. (Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN.—I hope Mr. Harbord will see the ne-
cessity of withdrawing the word " false."
Mr. HARBORD.—I withdraw the word "false," and say
it's not true." (Hear. If you allow gentlemen in an indi-
rect way to allude to others, and to call them fashionable
names, and that we cannot seek for redress, then I say that
themis partiality still in the chair. (Cheers.)
SHEII, would prove what he had said. He had already
stated that the gentleman asked a question, the tendency of
which was to draw a distinction between the religion of the
different members of the council. (" No, no," from the
conservatives.) Then he would put the question, for he
liked to prove his position. The gentleman stood up and
asked " Is the person a member of the Church of England ?"
and he (Mr. S.) would put it to anyone, whether such a
question, when asked in reference to a person who was about
to be placed over a school, had not a tendency to draw a dis-
tinction between the different members of the community ?
What had Mr. Harbord himself said ? That he asked it in
order that he might know how he should vote ; and yet this
was not to make a distinction ! Why, it was a sort of insult
to the understanding to say' the contrary. It was nonesense ;
and the word " nonesense” he hoped was not too strong.
(A. laugh.) Afterwards Mr. Harbord said that he had a
respect tn.' the Roman Catholics. He (Mr. S.) expected the
wo-4 " love" from him ; but he supposed he had that sort
of lo .e for Roman Catholics which the great patron of his
pristy iiad for holy water. (Laughter.)
. BLACKBURN said that, as he had been alluded to in
the c 'use of the debate, he wished to observe that the words

...Ace prepense" had been used by him in a jocular man-
ner. (" Oh ! oh 1" from the conservatives.) He never in-
tended to apply any such words to Mr. Gladstone, who had
studied the newspapers for the purpose of convicting him of
inconsistency ; but he had not used the words in a vindictive
sense. (Hear.) He felt that he had done wisely in pro-
posing the vote of thanks, because he had heard nothing of
unfair dealing on the part of the mayor.

Mr. GLADSTONE expressed hiniself satisfied with Mr.
Blackburn's explanation. lie confessed that he had left the
council on the day in question under the impression that the
words had been used in the worst possible feeling. (Hear,
hear.) He knew not what meaning Mr. Blackburn attached
to the words " malice prepense." It was language that gen-
tlemen were not in the habit of using ; it was language that
should not be tolerated in the council ; and he was surprised
that the mayor on the occasion had not called him to order
for it. (Hear.) He found himself in a painful predicament
at that moment, because, although he entertained strong
views on political subjects, he never would sell himself to do
an injury to ally man ; but he must confess that he had been
one of those who opposed the election of the present mayor
on the conviction, in his own mind, that he was not the most
desirable man to be elected ; and that conviction had been
rather strengthened than weakened since he entered office.
(Hear, hear.) With good intentions the mayor had meant to
do well, but that his conduct had been marked by partiality
there was no doubt in his mind. (lie pointed to Mr. Hodg-
son as an instance in which it had been exhibited ; and he
would ask the council whether the fact of that gentleman's
opinions not being what they formerly were was not the real
bone of contention against him ? (Hear.) On one occasion
the very alderman who then sat in the chair entertained the
opinions which Mr. Hodgson did at present. There was no
doubt but Mr. Hodgson had every right to hold strong
religious opinions • but was he; on' that account, to be a
marked man? (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. G.) once differed
with Mr. Hodgson, but if that gentleman were to turn to the
other side to-morrow he would treat him with that respect
which his conduct deserved. (Cheers.) Mr. Gladstone con-
cluded by again expressing his opinion as unfavourable to the
mayor as regarded his partiality.
Mr. Amu,: complained of a want of charity upon the part
of those who prided themselves on their religion and benevo-
lence, and expressed a hope that the mayor would overcome
the denunciations of men whose denunciations carried little
force.

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE thought the mayor had been re-
cently guilty of an error in judgment in presiding at a meet-
ing called for the futile purpose of embarrassing her Ma-
jesty's ministers. (Hear.) He thought it injudicious of the
mayor to have lent himself to such a purpose ; but this was
the only ground of difference he had with him.
Mr. YATES said the meeting in question had. been con-
vened for the purpose of considering and remedying the dis-
tress which pervaded the land.
The CHAIRMAN here asked whether he was to understand
that no amendment had been moved. (" You are.") Then,
said he, the motion has been carried with the exception of
the gentlemen who have expressed their sentiments against it.
Most of the Conservatives here left the council ; after
which

The MAYOR returned thanks. He entered office with an
intention of faithfully and imparti Ally discharging its duties.
He admitted that he made use inadvertently of an expression
which ought not to have fallen from him ; but, when he
withdrew it, the matter ought to have ended. (Hear, hear.)
After replying to a few of the accusations brought against
him, he concluded by saying that he had ever endeavoured to
act upon the maxim of doing to others as he would be
done by.
The council separated at two o'clock.