The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

March 2, 1847.

ESTABLISHMENTS IMPORTANT 1
DISCUSSION.
On Friday night, a public discussion toot .!e a —le
Concert-hall, Lord Nelson-street, relative to the con-
:nexion between the Church and the State ; and the im-
portance of the subject for debate, and its bearing upon
various religious opinions, as well as the fact that the dis-
.putants were considered by their respective supporters to
be able and elequentinen, (and justly so in one instance
at least) imparted to the proceedings, or the anticipation
of them, a more than usual interest. The demand for
tickets (requisite for admission,) was so great, some days
'previously that four times the quantity, had there been
room for a larger auditory, could have been disposed of.
As it was there was not a ticket to be obtained after Wed-
- nesday, the greater portion having been disposed of in a
'few hours after the announcement of the meeting reached
the public ear. The body of the room, the gallery, and
every avaliable place, :even for standing room, were
'crowded to excess.
The disputants were Edward Miall, Esq., of London,
the gifted editor of the Nonconformist, the organ of 'a
large section of dissenting communities ; and the Rev.
Joseph Baylee, a clergyman of the Church of England,
in Birkenhead, an accomplished linguist, and a close
'reasoner on any subject which he has hitherto' taken up,
"ejpeci,illy on controversial topics. The general impres-
sion therefore was that it would be " Greek meeting
‘ireek," and hence the interest excited. The origin of
the discussion may be briefly conveyed. Mr. Miall and
his friends lately held a public meeting here to advocate
the propriety of abolishing the connexion between the
Church and the State. The meeting happened, to be
rather turbulent, and Mr. Miall took occasion to challenge
any clergyman in Liverpool, or the neighbourhood, to
meet him in discussion on the point at issue. Mr. Baylee
accepted the challenge; preliminaries were arranged, and
the discussion commenced as stated.
On the platform were the Revs. Fielding Ould, D.
James, J. R. Connor, W. Maynard, D. S. Wylie, D.
Thom, D. J. Hirsch, W. M. Falloon, D. Anderson, M
Crornp, Roberts, M. Beswick, H. L. Brown, Wm.
Clark, Wolsley, D. R. Stephens, G. H. Hackin, &c.
Chas. Robertson, Esq., acted as chairman for Mr. Miall;
and the Rev. Mr. Pollock for Mr. Baylee, Mr, Lockston,
Independent Minister, was chosen as Moderator by mutual
consent of both parties.
Mr. Pommel( opened the business of the evening. He
lamented that one of the laity had not come forward to
preside, owing, perhaps, to the holding of another meeting
that evening of The Health of Towns' Association. He
could not, therefore do less than stand by his dear friend,
Mr. Baylee. The simple question was—in what way shall
the power of the Gospel of Christ be made most conducive
to the welfare of men, and most conformable to the will
of God. Both the argumentors, he rejoiced to say, had
agreed to adhere to the law and the testimony—each re-
cognising the Scriptures as the baths of Christian Doctrine.
The Rev. Mr. BAYLEE then offered up an appropriate
Prayer.
Mr. Councillor ROBERTSON then introduced Mr. Miall,
who was received with much applause. After the two dis-
putants had shaken hands
Mr. MIALL said, he was impressed with the solemn
nature of the devotional engagement into which he had
entered, and considered it his duty to preserve the cour-
tesy and meekness of a christian. He was prepared to
receive any remark from the other side which a sense of
duty might lead his reverend opponent to make. He
rejoiced that his opponent and himself were substantially
agreed as to what constituted true christianity. He re-
garded it as that manifestation of the mindof God through
the Mediator, by which the great ruler of the universe
seeks to win back to his government those who have re-
volted from it—to make them, instead of rebels, willing
subjects—to bring them into hearty subjection to his moral
and spiritual government—to unite them—to harmonise
their spirits, their will, to himself and to his own, so that
in the highest sense it may be said of Him and them, that
they are one, He believed it was not opposite to the will
of God as laid down in the Scriptures, nor opposed to the
general tendency of the Christian scheme, that religion
tlild be maintained and extended by voluntary efforts.
3 was the first effort he would make—to support the
to churches, to maintain the expenses of Divine worship, and
extend the Christian Kingdom, by missionary enter-
prise. This, he conceived, was due to us, independent
of the state, and in obedience to the voluntary impulse
of the minds of men. Such an effort was perfectly
compatible with the whole genius of Christianity. In
Liverpool, there were many churches of the Estab.
lishment supported by voluntary contributions ; and
he felt assured that the effort made by the Church of
England to extend religion over the world was supported
by voluntary contributions. The Scriptures enjoined upon
• them to go forth in the exercise of voluntary effort, whe-
ther by personal exertion, or by pecuniary contribution,
and to stretch out to a wanting and a perishing world
those means and ordinances, which would not be sus-
tained but for their intervention. According to the New
Testament, in respect to the extension of religion, all that
Was positive leant to voluntary effort. Jesus Christ sent
out his disciples among their brethren, the Jews, ,to
Preach the Word of God, and laid upon them the com-
mand,r._ " Freely ye have received ; freely give." In fipe,
oa the express precepts the Apostle gave to his converts,
La them that are taught communicate in all good things
to them that teach." From this and other examples, he
came to the conclusion that, so far as the New Testament
direction upon this point was positive—so far it leant very
considerably to the voluntary principle. He would take
the general spirit and scope of the sacred writings, and he
thought the conclusion must be, from analogy, that the
gospel should be voluntarily dispensed. Owing to the
natural corruption of men's hearts, and their alienation
from, and consequent aversion to, the holy principles of
Christianity, was it likely that their prejudices should be
overcome, or that the hardness of their hearts should be
softened by applying to them the rigour of human
law ? It were best to quarter ourselves upon the
resources of depraved men, in order that Christian
opinion might be promoted and maintained. It
would serve no good purpose to trample upon the preju-
dices of human nature. It was opposed to the object in
view to set aside the will of men in erecting our machi-
nery, and then endeavour to direct that machinery so as
to bring the will into entire and cordial consent. They
did all that could be accomplished to reclaim man. It
addressed itself in an emphatic manner to all mariner of
human beings. The whole tenor of Christianity was in-
terfered with, when they relied upon the compulsory sys-
tem. That system did not make its appeal to the sympa-
thies of man, but to the arm of the magistracy—it rested
not upon the intrinsic verity and force of Divine truth,
but upon parliamentary law, and upon those appointed by
the legislature for carrying out the acts of that law. It
was entirely based upon physical—the ultimate rock upon
Which it rested ; it brought into the warfare of moral and
spiritual evils carnal weapons. It opposed itself directly
to the best sympathies of human nature, and stirred up
Were spirit of resistance that men always felt when they
:re sensible of being exposed, to injustice. The compul-
v.P3' system was opposed to Christianity. There were
;:rious opinions on the question of the kind of religious
'l,Btruction that ought to be given by the state to the neo-
re, and who were to decide what that instruction should
,a. If it were the duty of " the powers that be " to se-
!fet the religious instruction that shall be supported by
the general pay of the people, then was it the duty of a
subject in all cases to submit ? If not, they came to this
very curious contradiction, that it was the duty of the civil
Magistrates, in some instances, to command their subjects,
in some cases, when it was not the duty of the subjects to
ohey. How could the magistrate decide as to the various
creeds of various parties ? It would be admitted even by
Church of England men, that great errors might in this re-
LT systemarise. wHiethboeultiedvierdecitti
impossible
to carry out the pre-
aunstyme. He believed it did dis-
honourtiadoivri_duals talked about
to time Creator.
the impossibility of maintaining
but for resort to a compulsory system. dinAnagserPetafetlre' edlig.siuoeng
individuals were doing their own church a
He believed if it were left entirely independent of ustulTE;
connection, cast upon its own resources, the piety, energy,
faith, zeal, love, of its own members, it would flourish
more successfully, vigorously, triumphantly, than it has
ever done since its connection with the state. After some
-remarks in behalf of the courtesy that ought to be ob-
Served in such discussions, so that sound argument might
_lead to truth, he concluded by saying—" For my own
Part, Ido not believe it. I believe a large portion of so-
ciety is sufficiently candid, unbiassed, and unprejudiced
in this matter, to listen to truths urged upon both sides,
weigh, examine, and come to that conclusion which
laey think will be sustilined in the judgment of the Last
may." (His hour having expired, Mr. Miall retired amid
considerable applause.)
The Rev. Mr. Poeeocx briefly introduced the Rev.
'Joseph Baylee as a faithful minister of the gospel.
The Rev.,Mr. BAYLEE expressed his di.sappointment
that his talented opponent had not supported his argu-
rnent by chapter and verse, which he (Mr. B.) had
'4Pected. He and his opponent agreed as to the cha-
racter of true Christianity, but he ' (Mr. B.) varied in
?pinion from the deductions drawn. According to the
Old Testament, God's appointment, in those days, were in
favour of the compulsory principle, as they were now.
Certainly, much might be done by voluntary means, and
they were under an obligation to do so. The Old Testa-
'pent (to which his opponent did not allude) abounded in
'fiats in support of religion as supported by the state, and
there were many passages in the New Testament having
the same tendency. He quoted from the 9th chapter of
'uorinthians, " Even •so bath the Lord ordained," &c. ;
and said, that if one passage made that law, there was an
eternal principle applicable to all men and all times. His
tinkpovnoeionnthradaid,tha t the • leaning of Scripture was to
y Principle, but what passages bore this out ?
that the compulsory principle rested upon
contended:Diviee truth,
Ensipported by Parliamentary law. The
Church of
England, however, rested upon no act of .
Parliament for its. He believed it to be the true
Church ; and he openlys-
itrmofsertblca,tiltinloitat if he lived in
Italy he should consider
in conscience to
Pay to the support of the Roman
,custom was due."t
that
Catholic Church, on the
Christian principle of " rendering tribute where tribute
4,11." due, and. cotom .to who
believed .the word of God was not so uncerwtaoisn
nbou
stnicaitwe i
that, in fact
could- tell what •it proved ; that there;
Tleertainty as that stated by his opponent
lucre was no difficulty in the matter. He would be the
England
man to compel any person to belong to the Church of •
:ngland ; but he would contend that it was the duty Of
'T-4teSnien to provide for the support of a church by state
flactments and pecuniary endowments, He could prove
7 scripture that compulsory payments in support of a
tate church were in accordance with the law of Moses
4°El of Christ. This was consistent with God's holy
,
lnrd• All which he, and those with him, looked for
Wan the state, was what the articles of the Church of
England strictly enjoined. Many thought that we should
he guided by what were called rights of conscience, on .1
which point he believed many errors were' abroad. Let
It be remembered that we should not hereafter be judged
"3: our consciences, but by God's word alone. Crimes
alight be committed—and had been—under the ilea of
conscience ' • but no man had a right to oppose his con-
'tinge to the established law of God. " Unto the pure

4( piaci

all things are pure ; but unto them that are defiled and
unbelieving is nothing pure ; but even their mind and
conscience is defiled." We, of the Church of England,
believed the revealed word of God was to be found con-
jointly in the Old and the New Testament. In reference
to the former, the Apostle Paul referred to it as illus-
trative of the Christian dispensation. In the 9th
chapter of Ist Corinthians he showed the right of the
Christian minister to obtain support for the church.
The mind of the Apostle was continually in unison
with the fact that the Old and New Testaments were
to be identified in principle. The 10th chapter of the
same book instructed us, upon that point,—" Moreover,
brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how
that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed
through the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat;
and did all drink of the same spiritual drink ; for they
drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them ; and that
Rock was Christ." In the 3rd of Ephesians, 6th verse.
this fact was confirmed. He therefore appealed to the
Old Testament, to show that the union between church
and state was in accordance with the Mosaic dispensation.
It was further shown by Job 31st chap., 26th verse, and
by the 14th chapter of Genesis. Where was the nation
that did not unite the church with the state ? True there
was one, but that was not one hundred years old, and how
long it might continue in its present state time alone could
show. Was Abraham a foolish man when he bowed to
King Melchizedek, the prince and priest of the High
God? Was Moses an unwise legislator when he united
the church to the state—was Solomon a foolish king when
he built and endowed the temple of God, and established
a suitable priesthood, or were they deprived of their com-
mon sense ? It was, therefore, abundantly evident that
G6d had expressly revealed the framework of an esta-
blished church as a blessing to the people of every well-
ordered community. The reverend gentleman next re-
ferred to the Scriptures in proof of the principle of en-
dowed establishments of religion, and observed, that
from the Bible it was abundantly evident that, at some
time in the world, God bad provided for the union
of the church and state--that for fifteen hundred years
he approved of the supremacy of the chief magistrate
in his church. (Cheers.) It should be distinctly borne
in mind that the Christian dispensation was not an anti-
type of the temple service as dissenters asserted, but of the
parochial system as exemplified in their synagogue service.
He then referred to a variety of passages from Isaiah,
Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Ezra, and the minor prophets, proving
that many of their predictions referred to the Christian
dispensation, as exemplified in the union of church
and state, and concluded by calling upon Mr. Miall to
prove his position from the Bible, and to give chapter and
verse for his assertions. (He resumed his seat amid tre-
mendous cheers.)
Mr. MIALL on rising to reply was received with loud
applause by his friends. He said be begged to be under-
stood as being no enemy whatever to the reference of all
disputes in theological quarters to chapter and verse,
"more especially if the chapter and verse be relevant to
the question at issue. He did not know that it was an
old complaint—perhaps it was somewhat novel in the ad-
vocates of the compulsory system to find fault with their
opponents for not resting exclusively on the scriptural
arguments developed in chapter and verse." Why, it
seemed to be taken for granted that they looked with con-
tempt on Judaic dispensation. Judaisim was absolutely
necessary, in order to make way for Christianity, but it
would be impossible for man in these days to understand
the mind of Christ in his intervention for the people ; btit
because God saw it absolutely necessary thus to interfere,
in order to develop his will among men, and be himself had
set aside his own institution ; let them not, at all events.
regard themselves as under an obligation to go back to it,
further than to illustrate those truths which were taught
to them under that better covenant which commenced
with better promise. (Cheers.) The first reference which
was made illustrating the church and state principle was
the Book of Job, where it is written that Job declared if
he should have been guilty of offering adulterous worship
to the objects of nature before him, then the magistrate
should punish him. It would not be disputed amongst
them that, under the Judaical dispensation, idolatory was
punished by death. Either let us have Judaism, with all
its powers and privileges, or Christianity, with all its moral
beauty and freedom. Then, allusion was made to Abra-
ham and Melchizedek, as illustrating the nature of church
and'state. He was sorry he could not exactly see how the
gift to Abraham, of a tenth of the spoils obtained in war,
was an argument in favour of, or a fact preshadowing the
compulsory principle. If Melchizedek bad taken the
spoils—if he had said, " because lam a servant of God in
both temporal and spiritual things, I claim a tenth part of
that which belongs to you," then he (Mr. Miall) would
have seen some relevancy in the application of chapter
and verse ; but it did not seem to him that chapter and
verse told favourably for the compulsory principle as one
sanctioned by God. He believed there were modes in
which kings and queens, in their official authority, could
do far more good than by controverting' the powers and
doctrines of the word of God. When God charged Cyrus,
Cyrus, of course, did right to obey. When God did not
charge Queen Victoria, Queen Victoria bad no right to
enforce. Let him see the authority for it is as plainly as
the authority of Cyrus in respect to that one particular
transaction—let him see the authority of Scripture on
which the kings of the present times based their standing,
and then .he would submit with all thankfulness. Mr.
Miall resumed his seat amidst loud applause.
M. BAYLEE replied. He complained that during the
last thirty-five minutes his opponent had not brought for-
ward a single text of Scripture in support of his position.
He would not be diverted from his purpose by proving
whether the Church of England was or was not the
Church of Christ, but he was ready at any time to meet
any Dissenter, and bring that question to the test of
Scripture (hear, hear). He would argue the question
whether English dissent, or separation from the Church
of God, could be justified by Scripture. He believed
that Dissenters read the New Testament almost entirely
to the exclusion of the Old, and he accused his opponent
of haying made several irrelevant allusions. He defended
what he had previously stated about Melchisedec and
Cyrus, and contended that money for the support of the
Mosaical priesthood was to be exacted, even from the hea-
then. The question was not whether the Church of Eng-
land was entitled to tithes and taxes, but whether the
Word of God warranted the union of Church and State.
(applause). The prophetical writings did not foreshadow
such a union, but they actually declared the union was in
existence even in the time of Christ. There was both
negative and positive evidence in the New Testament in
favour of the union. With respect to the negative evi-
dence, there was nothing said against the connexion be-
tween the Church and State. There was one, and only
one passage-adduced against it, namely, " My kingdom is
not of this world ;" but when rightly understood, this
passage was not opposed to his views. The positive evi-
dence began with saying, that the kingdom we had now
was a Jewish kingdom transferred to us—the Jewish
Scriptures and the Jewish spirituality that enabled them
to look forward to the doctrine of the resurrection. He
then referred for the positive to the 19th of Matthew, and
28th verse, the 13th of Romans, the 2nd of Peter, and the
Ist of Revelations. He denied that Christianity had been
successful during the first three centuries, and said there
was not one corruption of faith or doctrine, the buddings
forth of which we did not find introduced at that time.
The Church of the first three centuries contained such
errors and heresies as were not added to any great extent
in subsequent ages. He concluded by alluding to the opi-
nions of Owen, Howe, and Matthew Henry, the last of
whom had stated that that man was not to be listened to
who would tell us that the Church and State should be
dissevered. He summoned the apostles, the prophets,
and the spirits of just men made perfect, to bear witness
that the connexion ought not to be dissevered ; and he
denounced the language of those who charged injustice
and tyranny upon the men who imitated the God of Hea-
vm_e reverend
oAeins.tilsteTtnihteebaufstier asttienc apogvecinaltoulcsekem: an resumed his seat amidst the
ct,tleerDpoaxgced.ogy was sung, and
the discussion adjourned to Monday (yesterday), a report
of
which
will be
found
in
an

MONTHLY RETURN pF IN IMPORTED,
arethe
emaliNn
factsßofEt
ENTERED FOR CONSUMPTION,--
u stEo mi. sN' D
REMAINING
return
The following
of the importations and entries for consumption durin
the month ending February sth, and the quantity remain!
ing in warehouse on that date. Of Grain, we imported
from foreign countries 240,230 quarters, 1 bushel ; from
our colonies, 9,752 quarters ; total Corn and Grain,
249,982 quarters, 1 bushel. Of this quantity, 131,481
quarters, 4 bushels, consisted of Indian Corn. Of Meal
and Flour, we imported from foreign countries 213,647
cwt. 0 qrs. 10 lbs. •, from our colonies, 39,721 cwt. 0 qrs.
24 lbs.: total Meal and Flour, 253,368 cwt. 1 qr. 6 lbs. ;
of which 27,986 cwt. 2 qrs. 3 lbs. were Indian Meal.
The quantities entered for home consumption were, of
foreign countries' Grain, 526,187 qrs., 4 bushels ; from
our colonies, 13,231 qrs., 1 bushel : total, 539,418 qrs.,
5 bushels. Of this quantity, 132,317 qrs., 1 bushel, con-
sisted of. Indian Corn. The quantity of Meal and Flour
entered for consumption was, from foreign countries,
383,797 cwt. 2 qrs. 18 lbs. •, from our colonies, 48,238 cwt.
3 qrs. 25 lbs total, 431,036 cwt. 2 qrs. 15 lbs. ; of which
30,157 cwt. 3 qrs. were of Indian Meal. The quantities
remaining in warehouse on the sth February, were :
Corn and Grain, from foreign countries, 67,946 qrs. ; from
the colonies, 993 qrs., 4 bushels : total, 68,939 qrs., 4
bushels ; of which, only 406 qrs., 6 bushels were Indian
Corn. The quantities of Meal and Flour from foreign
countries were 310,939 cwt. 2 qrs. 23 11)3. ; from the colo-
nies, 7,300 cwt. 3 qrs. 2 lbs. : total, 318,240 cwt. 2 qrs.
7 lbs. ; of which, only 1,090 cwt. 2 qrs. 16 lbs. was
Indian Meal. The entries for consumption, it must be
borne in mind, coming up to the sth February, embrace
only nine days since the Corn Laws were suspended, viz.,
from the 26th January. Since that period, the importa-
tions have been considerable ; but the quantity remaining
in warehouse is probably not increased.
The duties chargeable at the time of the suspension of
the Corn Laws, on the 26th of January were as follows :
Foreign. colonial.
s. d. s. d.
Wheat, per quarter 4 0
Barley and Bere, Rye, 2 0
Pease, and Beans.... • •
Indian Corn and Buck
Wheat • - 1 0
Oats
Indian Corn and Buck 1
Wheat Meal, per cwt. 1 04}
Wheat Meal and
Flour
Oatmeal and G t
roa s .... 011 13-121
Barley Meal
Rye Meal and Flour -7
Pea and Bean Meal 0 9 l5-17

JATURDAY EVENING Cox-m.7%—On Saturday evening
last, Mr. Field gave an exceedingly interesting entertain-
ment, illustrative of British bravery, at the Concert-hall,
Lord :Nelson-street. The audience though not unusually
large, was most enthusiastic, receiving the entertainment,
which is replete with anecdote and song, in the most
favourable manner.