The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-09-23 00:00:00

.rl,tlV..,t4t,Vytl,POOL .:I'A.fid-ii.,PJ.I.

TOWN • CO UNCI4. PRO CI!7.DINGS.

An adjourned meeting of the monthly council was held on
Wednesday. last.
The proceedings were commenced by the Mayor reading an
application from the congregation of St. Michael's Church tube,
allowed to erect a tribute of respect to the memory of their late
minister, Mr. Berry, to ,which the council acceded. The Manoii then announced that he had received two poems
from a gentleman, and which were directed to the corporation.
The author stated that he had vent a. copy to the King, and bad.
received an answer, which he enclosed with the poems. What
his object was in presenting these poems, he could not divine,
unless it was to obtain something of a substantial kind. They
were too long to be read, but he would read, them if the council
wished it. (Loud cries of " No, no, no.")
The poems were then ordered to lie on the table.
The MAYOR then announced that he had received a petition
and prospectiis of the Liverpool and 11 amburgh Joint Stock
Qnill and Pen Company, requesting the patronage of the corpo-
ration and their sanction towards the formation of the company.
Ode feature of the prospectus was, that the projectors said it
would give employment to 500 or 1,000 little children, of various
ages from 8 to 14 years. They also stated that the Ostrich
feather and artificial flower business took its origin in France,
and gave employment chiefly to young paupers, and now it was
no uncommon thing for a manufacturer to employ as many as
3,000. Thecapital of the company was to be £20,000, in 2,000
shares of £lO each.

The council declined hearing the prospectus read, as they had
got copies.
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read a memorial from certain
parties complaining of the p,,lrrowness of a thoroughfare from
Temple-court to Dale-street:---Referred to the improvement
committee.

BY-LA WS.
The MA von said the next business to be brought before the
special council related to the by-laws.
The 'lbws-ct,Eux then proceeded to Teed the report of the
committee on
,The committee had met ou this subject
since the last council, and had had all seisting bv-laws under
their revision, and had made several alterations. .But the com-
mittee conceived that much information was required regarding
them before they could consider them as finally settled. They
therefore hoped that a copy of the by-lawS would be laid before
each of the members of the council, for perusal, and also at the
office of the town-clerk, for the perusal of persons interested, in
order that the by-laws might be finally settred by the committee
before they were submitted to an adjourned meeting of the
council, to be held ten days from the present time. The com-
mittee had caused by-laws to be prepared which would have the
effect of extending to the new part of the borough various pro-
visions in the local acts which applyonly to the old borough, for the
suppression of streetnuisances, for the better regulation of slaugh-
ter houses &c. These by-laws,•to the number of upwards of 60,
might now be taken into consideration, but the committee thought
it more expedient that they should first be submitted to the same
test as the other by-laws had been. The subject of electing the
surveyor of buildings might be referred to the improvement
committee.

Mr. Alderman BLAIN moved that this report be adopted,
which was seconded by Mr. THORNHILL.
Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE. thought that a subject of
such importance as the by-laws ought to be printed and made
public.
Mr. Councillor E. SMITH would second that, in order to show
t hat he was not an enemy to , printing in all cases. If it was
not very long he would insert it in his newspaper, if there was
no objection to it.
Mr. Alderman BLAIN had no objection to this addition, that
they be printed.
the MArott then understood this motion to be carried.

ELECTION OF SURVEYOR OF BUILDINGS.
The MAYOR then stated that it had been intended to have re-
ceived the recommendation- of the improvement committee for
the election of a surveyor of building's, but they had thought it
better to submit it to their surveyor to state who was an efficient
person, and probably more than one would be required; they
should be able to bring this subject forward at the next council
meeting.

CHURCH EXPENDITURE.
The MAYOR said the next ,subject which came under their
consideration was the subject of church expenditure, on which
subject a motion and amendment had been given notice of at
the last council meeting.
The TowN-CLERK said he had a sketch of the supplementary
report to the council, which he might as well read to the
council, though, in order, it ought first to go through the hands
of the finance committee. It was to the effect that counsels'
opinion had been taken on the subject of payments to the
organists, sextons, &c., and that opinion was that the corpora.
tion were not under any legal obligation to make any such pay-
ments. In the cases where it appeared that the original presen-
tation, made under the seal of the corporation, granted certain
stipends, the circumstances would require material considera-
tion whether the lecturers were entitled to claim on the corpo-
ration under the endowment or not.
' Mr. Councillor BOLTON now rose to bring forward the mo-
tion of Which he had given notice. He begged to call attention
to the consideration of the expenditure of the corporation
churches. In so doing, he would first advert to what had oc-
curred in pursuance of this object. Soon after the appointment
of the finance committee in January last, a sub-committee was
appointed for examining into the past expenditure. On that
subject they had reported to the council on the Gth of April,
and with permission he would read a part of that report. Mr.
Bolton then read an extract from the report, showing the amount
of various items of expenditure of the different corporation
churches during the preceding years; and which report con-
cluded with-" And your committee recommand that the future
expenditure on this account be 'strictly confined to the legal
charges." (Hear.) This had been adopted by the council.
He did not mean to say that what they agreed to should be like
the laws of the Medes and Persians, never change, but when
any alteration of their decision was to be made, very urgent
reasons should be brought forward to justify such alteration.
Immediately after this it became necessary to ascertain what
expenses were legal, and what were not. The subject since
then had been very much under the care of the town-clerk, and
the result had been a very ample and conclusive report on all
the matters about to be brought under consideration, and for
which they were very much indebted to his legal ability. That
part of the expenditure which related to the payments to the
clergy he considered it was not now necessary to discuss, it being
mixed up with and dependent upon the result of the endowment
question which was now before the Court of Chancery, and
therefore it would be unnecessary to say further than that a full
provision would be made for the payment of the stipends of the
clergy during their lives, to the full amount they had been ac-
customed to receive. (Hear.) He was not opposed to that;
but to the endowment in perpetuity he was now and ever would
be decidedly opposed. (Hear.) For he would maintain that
the funds of the corporation belonged to every sect and party,
and that it was an act of injustice to pay out of that fund any-
thin" for the promotion or advancement of any one denomina-
tion whatever, be they catholics or churchmen, or dissenters.
He maintained this on the ground of principle. He was quite
aware that, placed as they now were, there were acts of parlia-
nient which gave exclusive privileges to various churches, not
only for ministers but for organists, clerks, and various other
matters. Whilst these laws were in force it was his duty, and
the duty of every subject to obey theta cheerfully. It might be
their duty if they were unjust to endeavour to amend them.
The next parts of the report of the expenditure on which might
arise any discussion, were those parts which related to the organ-
ists. • It was provided by law that payments should be made to
some of them, and to the sextons and clerks, and various other
disbursements. With regard to these he would only remark
that these payments ought to be made with a due regard to
economy; they should be fair but not extravagant, and these
expenses should be kept down to a moderate amount. Con-
nected with this part of the expenditure it was painful :o con-
trast the different results which had taken place in the manage-
ment of other churches as compared with those supported by the
corporation. Whilst the corporation churches were sources of
great expenditure, the churches- of Edge-hill,' St. Andrew's, St.
Philip's, and several other churches which supported them-
selves, not only furnished the means of paying their own mi-
nisters, but also furnished to their proprietors a very handsome
remuneration. (Hear.) That brought hitn•to that part of the
expenditure which perhaps might be called the debatable part,
as there was a difference of opinion as to the propriety of con-
tinuing it. According to his knowledge of this item of expen-
diture lie was happy to say that it was exceedingly pure now
to what it had been. With regard to the church of St. Mi-
chael's, the first church he should- bring under their notice.
the only expense he should object to was the expense of
£63 a year paid to the singers; the organist was provided
by law. The next church he should notice was St. Luke's.
Sixty-three pounds was allowed for the same purpose in that
church, and in addition there were £67. Is. paid for bell.
ringers, which expense he held to be Missal and not obligatory.
The next thing was an expense of £93. 15s. in St. Martin's
Church, which was allowed for the choir for one year and a
quarter. It began in 1834, when £63 was allowed, and then
£B3 was allowed per annum, for what reason he could not tell.
The next item brought him to the expenditure of St. George's
Church, in which there was more variety and a larger amount
allowed than to any of the other churches. The first item of
expenditure was £63 for an organist, then £4 for an organ-
blower, £129. 3s. for choristers £4. 4s. fur tuning the organ,
£32 for music, making altogether a total of £232. 75., for which
there was no legal provision. The next matter was perhaps
unimportant : it was a suns of £77. 17s. 6d. for organist, clerk,
and sexton for St. Paul's Church, which charge was not obliga-
tory or warrantable under the municipal act. The next were
various charges on account of St. Thomas's Church. The
expenses per annum were £lO6. 19s. 7d., of which sum only £39
was legal, which made the excess of expenditure over what was
legal £7l. 19s. 7d.. They had heard the report, and they would
determine on what they would do, These were the items to
which he objected, amounting in the four corporation churches
to £6OB. ss. Id. per annum. They would seem to bear hard on
St. George's Church, for whilst in the other churches there was
provision made for many of these expenses, there was none in
that; but when they-considered the wealth and fashion which
adorned that church, and saw the splendid equipages whichsur-
rounded its door, he thought the congregation would not object
to pay out of their oWit-ptickets for what was to administer to
their own gratification, He :was told that it was intended to
contend for the continuance of all these charges on a ground
which he was surprised to hear-that it the music was with-
drawn from the churches, they would soon be empty. Really
the religion of the estab;ishment must be at a very low ebb, if
the withdrawal of the nitiiic would take away the congregations.
If the subject was to be viewed as a mercantile question, let
Them look at it as such. tie had taken the expenditure of the
last five years for St. George's Church, and he found it to be
£7,942. 18s. 2d.: there had been received for seat rents
£3,167. 18s. 7d. For St. Michael's Church, for the same pe-
riod, there. had been expended £4,674. 2s. Ild., and there had
been received £2,712. 2s. 6d.; for St. Martin's there had been
paid £5,010. 14s. 9d., and received £1,254. ss. 4d.;. for St.
Luke's 'there had been paid £3,769. Bs. Od., and received
£1,926. 17s. 7d. For these four churches there had been paid
during the last five years a
.sum of £21,397. 3s. lld., and re-
ceived £9,060. 145., leaving a loss on these four churches of
£12,336. 9s. lid., or on an average £246. 7s. 2d. per annum for
each church, not accounting for the loss of interest. Iu addi-
tion to which might be fairly added £2lO annuity paid to Mr.
Case. That had not very much to do with the subject, but still
it was apart of the sum which was paid out of the corporation
or common properly. From this fund in the preceding seven
years there had been expeuded £39,070 for building St. Mar-
tin's, St. Luke's, and doin,, something at the steeple of St.
George's, which was a total outlay per annum for building
churches of £5,581. 10s. In connexion with this subject, he
believed it might be considered that what was paid to the or-
ganists would be termed a church-rate, and levied accordingly.
The town-clerk had opened a report prepared by the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury and the Bishop of London on this subject,
and in it the question of church rates was very fairly and cre-
ditably treated. That report stated that church-rates ought to
be made in vestry. It slated also that if in a vestry meeting
Butto tilt,
the rate was imposed, there was little difficulty in levying it.
e statedocud further , thato
ratet,shaae
o,sda ofl.athr;it,
therefore,t the
expense
pneont legalse m u to
bt
tbneaaybiz:enclriemfeetdr.ed
imposing a which ..nil.f
churchwardens,sstry refusevvilo h
atvheisex pence, it
the power of
zompetent in any parisbioner be made a. legal :charge by the
sanetion of trite,majorit of the vestry, and when givsn it is not
to object to it. When' this subject,
ly iiiadLbhei7l oAnl dt
omip distehuaNts °IIT, atisle til „Site l
7ft hCv"lsluubjnencst iof 1 w.
acshttlartt•elid
-
rates into two pbinls, one of which he called necessaries, and

the other luktiries. The necessaries he considered to be the
walls of Chtirch-yardi, sexton's salary, which ought to be
provided for out of the public purse ; but anything in the shape
of an organist he considered as a luxury, and the parties en-
joying-it ought to pay for it. He mentioned these thing 4 not
because he was opposed to music in churches, on the contrary,
he thought it a very desirable accompaniment: He had it in
his church, and he very cheerfully paid his proportion towards
supporting: it • but . what he objected to was, that the persons
who derived the benefit of it came there for them to pay for it.
There was only one conditiOn on which he would dispense with
singing from his own place of worship, and that condition
would be to have to go begging for the means of supporting it.
It was also remarkable that all those churches which the corpo-
ration in Liverpool encouraged, should be the only churches
which were not flourishing. It seemed from the authority of
all time, that the Almighty blasted whatever was protected; in
the end it destroyed that interest which it was meant to pro-
mote; it raised all mankind against it on account of its in-
justice. He considered this was a matter of principle and not
of expediency, and the subject ought not to be treated under
the paltry pretext or expediency. In justification of withdraw-
ing this support from the churches, he might also say that the
dispensary, which no one would deny the utility of—it was an
institution in which the poor were relieved, of all sects and all
parties—and the corporation had thought it right to withhold a
subscription towards it, and now how could they with any pro-
priety be asked to contribute to the gratification of the parties
who attended the corporation churches. It would be a disgrace
to the town to be told that they were bound to take away their
support from the dispensaries and give it to the organists.
With regard to the municipal act by which the management of
their affairs was given to them, there was no privilege given to
any sect or party; and iu case there should be a staples of
their funds, there was an express provision. made that it should
be employed in the public benefit of the inhabitants, not for the
advantage of a party or of a sect, but,for the improvement of
the borough at large. With these views, the subject having un-
dergone much inquiry, he thonght the time was now arrived
when they should declare what line of conduct they would put,
sue, and he should therefore propose for the adoption, of the
council the following resolution :—" That the payment of the
funds of the corporation on account of 'charges described in the
report as not obligatory, be discontinued, and that the future
expenditure-be strictly confined to such items as are obligatory
and legal, due regard being observed to economy in the pay-
ments for services performed, and work to be done. The pro-
ceedings in Chantery in the endowment cause being still pend-
ing, renders it unnecessary at present to confider that part of
the report which refers to the stipends of the clergy. This re-
solution to take effect on the let of November next, and a copy
of it to be sent to the churchwardens of the churches concerned;
by the town-clerk." He thought this extension of time neces-
sary ; not to turn the organists and choristers off, as they might
come upon them for compensation.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE HEYWORTH rose in support of
the principle advocated by Mr. Bolton. He hoped they would
be faithful to the charge with which they were entrusted, when
he considered that they were the representatives of the whole
body of the town—of every denomination of Christians, and of
Jews too. What would be the effect on their blinds if a pro-
posal should be made to grant an addition to the stipends of the
ministers of any other sect out of the funds of the C.orporation.
Such a proposition would be at once negatived in that morn,
and very properly. If this were to be grantedSlietlistsolthiltheY
in justice refuse the applications of any other sect,e.,Heasoo-
sidered that no advantage could be derived for religion from it,
but on the contrary. He considered that religion'was
things, to be carried on the principle of free trade. Religion
never existed but by divine appointment, and could not be sup-
ported by compulsory measures. He most cordially agreed in
the principle which Mr. Bolton had advanced.,
Mr. Alderman Bitosyse gave the gentleman who had brought
forward this resolution credit for the manner in which they had'
acted on this occasion. He was sure they would have acted in'
the same manner hail it been to take these items from the
Catholics. He rose to
.propose an amendment somewhat
ferent to that of which he had given notices', These items were
not justifiable by law; but when they looked at the heavy ex-
penditure for these churches they should take into consideration
that a considerable number of pews in these churches were-not
rented but left free for the poor burgesses, which would greatly
diminish the amount of the receipts.- In the amendment he
should propose he should not go the length that it bad been
anticipated he intended to go. He should move "That a Com-
mittee be appointed to take into consideration the subject of
the whole church property of the corporation, and to report
upon the most desirable management of it; due regard being
had to the payments which are obligatory and not obligatory,
and to such as are expedient and not expedient, and all with
reference to the maintenance and increase of the rents of the
seats, as a matter of sound discretion." He was not desirous of
perpetuating charges which were unnecessary, but as Conser-
vators of the Borough property they were placed there to make
the most of it. Probably some gentleman would do him the
honour of seconding his amendment.
Mr. Councillor DUNCAN would cordially second the amend-
ment proposed by Mr. Brown. He considered that they were
entrusted with the care of the churches. To a certain extent
they were protected by act of Parliament, and they were bound
to maintain those acts to their full extent, and they were also
bound to maintain the churches as they now were in all their
efficiency. If it were in his power he would add to the stipends
of the clergy instead of diminishing them, and most willingly,
as he considered they were inadequately paid.
The M AYOR.—The :question of the stipends of the clergy was
not then under consideration.
Mr. Councillor DUNCAN said-he should be veryglad to defer
the whole question till the endowment was settled.
The Towar-CLERK then read over the resolution and amend-
ment.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN said he had a strong objection to
Mr. Brown's amendment, inasmuch as the subject had already
undergone, by one committee, the most minute investigation.
All that could be done, was done to their hands. (Hear.) Mr.
Brown's motion did not propose that such a committee as he
wished to have appointed, would be at all final, so that the mat-
ter would again come before them in the same state, without
any additional information. Upon that ground, therefore, lie
should object to the adoption of the amendment. Had Mr.
Brown proposed that the subject should go back to the Finance
Committee, for their final decision—
Mr. Alderman BROWN.—I have no objection to that..
Mr. Couneillor BLACKBURN.—Had he proposed that, he
should still have objected to that course even; for he did think
that they were getting too much into the habit of giving to com-
mittees the decision of questions which they ought to decide
upon themselves. (question He should strongly object to giving
! the decision of this to the Finance Committee, which
they themselves ought to decide upon. Six or eight weeks ago
it would be remembered that he had had the honour of intro-
ducing a resolution the tendency of which was to prevent any
grants to schools, and the ground of his objection was, that it
would be the safest course to keep completely clear of any such
expenditure as was not immediately for the benefit of ail parties.
That resolution was carried, and be trusted it would form a
permanent principle of action for succeeding ages. If it was
right and proper to adopt that resolution, then surely it was
most decidedly right and proper to keep clear of encouraging
any particular sect by the payment of sums of money fur the
support of any portion of their establishments. If it was not
right to give to the schools agaiust which there was the least
objection, still more strongly was it desirable that they should
keep themselves clear from any direct encouragement of any
denomination of christians by voting sums of money for their
support ; and therefore he called on all those who hail supported
that resolution, in consistency, to support Mr. Bolton's motion;
and he trusted that those gentlemen who had supported that
resolution, would now do equal justice to all parties. He thought
I hey had committed themselves in that resolution to the sanction
,of a general principle, the application of which to the present
case was perfectly clear. There was no opposition to church
establishments ! He disclaimed all such feelings • all they
claimed, was equal justice, and that no favour should' be shown
to any one portion more than another. Dissenters were in the
habit of supporting their own institutions; they received no
support from any one. Let them be consistent, and if they
refused to give to those who were more necessitous and less ob.
jectionable, let them not give those things which were open to
objection, and which might be called luxuries. Whatever dif-
ference there might be on the propriety of singing and music in
places of worship, they were bound to withhold their funds for these objects. When they had gone to their utmost length in j
withholding payments from the episcopalians or that sect esta-
blished by law, yet there still remained permanent charges, se-
cured by act of parliament, of very large sums of money; so that
when they had done their best todo away with this they should
still stand in the predicament of giving a very large and perma-
nent sum for the support of the church. Andhe considered that
this injustice would be greatly aggravated to grant these sums,
when £l6OO a-year was already settled on the churches by act of
parliament. They were su rely not called upon in justice to add to
the amount of this grave injustice, for injustice it was, though it
was authorised by act of parliament, which act it was their duty
to obey. An idea had been thrown out in conversation on this
subject, that they should view these churches as a sort of trad-
ing concern which they were bound to keep up, and that they
should make the best of them, and that by paying for music
they should get more from the letting of the seats than they
would without music. He strongly objected to this view of the
subject. He thought it degrading to the churches themselves,
and that such a view of the subject was particularly offensive.
It seemed to•him to take for granted that the music and singing
were more important than the religious instruction. He thought
they should do great discredit to the ministers of those churches
—that they should pay a very left-handed compliment to the
congregations if they proceeded on the supposition that they
would deprive themselves of music if they should refuse io pay
for it for them. He believed the result would be not to diminish
in the slightest degree those services, but to excite individuals
to come forward and provide themselves with what was now pro-
vided'by the public money. He did not think they had reason
to apprehend any falling off in the seat rents if they should dis-
continue paying for the music, for it would be provided by the
congregations. They had had smi4 proof lately of the good ef-
fect of causing persons to exert themselves; when that council
had determined to open time schools to the whole community, they
did not anticipate that the happy result would be a subscription
of £ll,OOO. (Cheers,) Let them. be prepared to withdiaw
these payments, acting on this principle, and there would not
be the least dedocticui from the efficiency and success of the
worship carried on in those places, and...instead of doing them
a disservice or treating them with disrespect or evincing any-
thing like a hostile spirit towards them, they would be doing
essential service in increasing time discharge of those duties,
which were the tioblest enjoyieent of which their nature was ca-
pable. With these views he supported, with all his heart Mr.
Bolton's resolution. ,
Mr. Councillor EARLE quite agreed in every thing Mr.
Blackburn bad said. , He did not see what more they could
have by referring the report again to the same committee.
They could only report the seine, timings over again. He
thought it snore manly for them to declare their sentiments at
once. He thought Mr. Bolton's arguments were quite- con-
clusive, and he, as a churchman, should supportshis resolution.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Councillor WALMSLEY, as a member of the established
church, begged to say he was quite satisfied that no churchman J would consent to receive any SUM from the Corporation which
was considered illegal. He trusted the time was not far distant,
when churchmen would refuse to receive any part of the funds
which ought to be expended exclusively for the public good.
Mr. Councillor EGerifosi SMITH said Mr. Boltoti called on
them to do merely what the law required them to do. They
could not appropriate any sums which were not from a surplus
of the corporation funds. It had frequently been his misfor-
tune to ask for money, and he had always been answered that
there was no surplus 'fend. It appearedlo him that this grant
would be throwing away the public money for purposes extra-
judicial. It appeared to him, if they were to grant these sums,
they could not refuse grants to other public congregations be-
sides the Church of England. There were 60.0(0 Catholics in
Liverpool, and St. Patrick's Chapel was considerably in debt.
He thought, after making the vote which was contemnplated,
they would be "saddled" with a poor excuse to say to these
people if they asked for some of the publiC money, "we can
give you nothing " It appeared to him that they were called
on to do that which the law required them to do. He quite
agreed with Mr. Blackburn that it the church was thrown an its
own resources it would flourish better than if bolstered up. •
Mr. Alderman BnowN in explanation thought there must,:be
some mistake on the part of those 'gentlemen who had adVocated
the resolution. They' knew that the churches, where there was
good music and comfortable pews, were better attended, and—

. ,
117 r. Councillor But.'oll3
went and cannot be heard."
The MAYOR decided that it was so. He had merely given
Mr. Brown an opportunity ofexplanation.
Mr. Councillor tl. LAWRENCE thought since the unprofitable
state of the corporation churches had been under consideration
there was one thing which should not be overlooked, and that
was the great number of free seats in those churches. He did
not make any allusion to St. George's, where there certainly
had been zreat extravagance. In St. Michael's there were 520
free sittings; iu fit. Luke's 260; and similarly ie. the other
churches. All those who attended those churches were charged
very high rents for their seats, and they should have all that
was expected in an established church for it. He did not think
that any good would come from wasting arguments upon the
council, as he saw the general feeling was against the grant.
As a matter of expediency be did not call it "a mean and paltry
pretext." He thought expediency ought to be looked to on all
occasions. He should certainly support Mr, Brown's amend-
ment, as it was not worth while making another amendment
upon the motion, or he should somewhat have modified the
amendment. He would have proposed that those churches
where the corporation derived the whole of the funds should be
efficiently kept up by. the corporation, and that St. George's
should have an organist. What made these churches generally
so unproductive was the number of free seats they contained.
Mr. Councillor BoLToN said it was the common practice fur
the movers of resolutions to reply where amendments were
made. In his opinion there was little in the way of argument
which required refuting. With regard to the resolution of Mr.
'Brown to support the provision which was made to the four
churches, the objection he had to it was, that the singing of
these churches was a luxury which the congregations themselves
ought to pay for, and therefore be considered that this had
nothing whatever to do with the matter of supporting the places
of worship. He would go to the very utmost in stretching the
law for their accommodation, but this was in effect a gratifica-
tion for the rich; and it happened most unfortunately for the
observation that the church to which the fewest poor went, St.
George's, was the most expensive. Mr. Blackburn had very
justly observed, that the established church had the advantage
of a legal protection, and he would not now iuerease these ad-
vantages. It seemed to hini most singular, that in all those dis-
sensions it was always an affair of pocket between thoSe who
had privileges already, wishing to retain or increase them at
the expense of others. He believed there was nothing further
on which he wished to observe. He should call for the decision
of the council as the question now stood, firmly persuaded that
everything, iu the nature of argument went for his motion.
„, The M 4 Y 9,12, after inquiring if any gentleman wished to make
any further observations, said before they voted he would take
the liberty of 'guying eon word. He did so now as he did nvt
like to interrupt Mr. Blackburn whilst he was speaking. It—
Mr. Councillor BOLTON (interrupting)—" I have replied to
vhat,has been said on this subject, and I-conceive that no one
Berson has any right to say any thing further upon it."
The MAYOR--" I am entitled to make the observations I am
about to make. On previous"—
Mr. Councillor BOLTON (persisting)—" Before I replied you
had the right to, address the council. Really after I have
spoken, to address the council is contrary, to all rule both in
parliament and out of it, as far as I am acquainted."
The Maros__" I have only to observe that I have hitherto
done as I was about to do on the present occasion. I have no
wish to take the slightest advantage; but if it is the opinion .of
the council that I ouglit.not to address them, I shall not. lam
sorry that I have lost the opportunity."
BOLTON again interrupted.
The MAYOR (sitting down)—".l am the last person to give
the council an opportunity of calling me to order. Go to the
vote. (Loud cries from all parts of the room of 'No, no, no;
speak,') No, I shall not; vote. (To the Town-clerk.) Go on."
The div]sion was then taken, ;when .there. appeared, fur the
arriendinent, Messrs. H. Holmes, Mellor, Birch, Woollwright
H. Lawrence, Sanders, Duncan, Brown, and the Mayor.
Against the amentirneut, Messrs. S. Hope, Thornhill, Sheil
Harvey, E. Smith, '['homely, Rawson, L. Heyworth, Walins
iev, Bolton, Rushton, H. H °ruby, itathbone, Preston, J
Cawrence, Aikin, Lassel, T. Holt, Earl, Moreeroft, Blackburn,
Coglan, Alison, J. Cropper, Tayleur, Beaus, Blain, 0. Hey.
worth, Moon, Freme, Barclay, Stuart, Leathoni, T. Smith
Jones, and Benu.
Against the amendment, 36; for the amendment, 9 ; majority.
27,

submit that this is new aigu-

Absent, Messrs. J. Holmes, Horsfall,
,Logan, M'Gregor,
Barton, Bright, Maxwell, Carson, Brockleban k, Reskell; E.
Cropper, Leigh, G. Holt, Jordan, .Bullet', Robinson, Booth,
and J. Hornbv.
The original motion was then put by the members rising
from their seats. The motion was then declared carried.
sLAUGHTER-1-14A2SES.
The MAYOR said the next subject was the report of the sub-
committee of finance on slaughter-houses.
The TOWN Cusex then read the report of the sub-committee
of finance, appointed to take the necessary proceedings for car-
rying the removal of the slaughter-houses into effect with expe-
dition. The report set forth that the committee had received a
letter from Mrs. Dodd, the occupier of a slaughter-house in
Cable-street, under an unexpired lease front which she received
a small income. The report further detailed that an act 26th
• George 3rd, for the improvement of the borough and suprres-
sion of nuisances, after reciting that the slaughtering or killing
of beasts and cattle in the public parts of the town, was found to
he exceedingly noisome and offensive, for remedy thereof the
Common Council were authorised to purchase such lands within
the liberties of the town, as they should think fit for the pur-
pose, and of building slaughter-houses thereon ; and it was
enacted that henceforth no beast should be killed or di eased else-
where in the town, under the penalty of 20s for each offence.
By the Ist George dth (1520,) these provisions are recognised,
and regulation for the existing slaughter-houses provided till the
new erections are completed. It appeared that there were in
the public parts of the old borough 54. slaughter-houses, many
of which were common nuisances, and in the opinion of the
committee, the health and comfort of the the inhabitant had for
years past required their removal to some more convenient si-
tuation. This subject having been taken up by the late coun-
cil, a lease of land near Brownlow-hill was, under their direction,
granted to Mr. J. Clifford Etches, on which new slaughter-houses
were to be erected, conformably with the act of parliament.
Tinder this lease, buildings fur the slaughter of cattle, to a very
considerable extent, had been erected by Mr. Etches, and were
now ready for use. By the terms of the arrangement of the
late council withMr Etches, the lease was granted for 7.5 years,
al a nominal rent and without any fine, upon a surrender of old
terms for lives and years. The late council also entered into a
covenant with Mr. I.tches, that they would carry into effect the
powers vested in them by 26th George 3rd, fur preventing the
slaughter of cattle in any other part of the town but the new
slaughter houses, and into a further covenant for guaranteeing
to him a rent of £6 14s per cent. on the total amount of money
that he might expend, not exceeding £17,500. The whole of
this amount was represented by Mr. Etches to have been ex-
pended, consequently the corporate estate was responsible to
him, under the pledge of the late council, for a guaranteed rent
of £1137 10s.. With the corporate estate'so pledged, the execu-
tive had devolved on the present council without giving them
any power of variation. [The regulations for the government
of the new slaughter-houses were here embodied in the report.]
By the lease, Mr. Etches 'was under covenant not to charge
greater rents than would amount in gross to £1330. The new
slanghter-houses appeared to the sub-committee to have been
erected upon a plan well calculated for preventing the killing
and dressing of the beasts from being any nuisance in the
neighbourhood, being amply provided with sewers, water, &c.
The sub-committee expressed regret that it should hate fallen
upon the council to execute duties under arrangements over
which they have no control, and that the removal must be at-
tended with loss in several cases they lamented also that some
scheme had not been originally adopted which would have given
the trade a general interest in the erections, and afforded cam-
peiAation, in particular cases of hardship, at the expense of the
general undertaking.
Mr. Alderman BROWN begged to move that the proceedings
of the finance committee on this subject be approved, and that
it be then referred back to the sub-committee, for the purpose of
carrying it into execution. The motion was seconded by Mr.
Stuart.

Mr. Coundillor JAMES LAWRENCE should like to know whether
all slaughter-houses were to be removed ?
The MAvott said the committee would be able to answer that
question.
Mr. Councillor EARLE thought that every slaughter-house in
the town, should be declared a nuisance.
Mr. Councillor J. LAWRENCE made the enquiry because he
had lived near some slaughter-houses for 20 years, which were
no nuisances. He thought that the committee, some of whom
were present, could have answered his question.
The Towist-CLERK submitted that the consideration of this
subject required a great deal of deliberation before an answer
could be given by the committee, and it would be better if that
committee were not to commit themselves by giving an incon-
siderate answer.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN understood that this general
abattoir was to supersede all others in the town.
The TOWN-CLERK.—" The report states that all others will
be under the penalty of £2O if continuing, and informed against ;
and it further stated that the fine would be enforced.
Mr. Councillor Btecti then moved that the report be printed,
which was seconded by Mr. Holmes.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN thought it should be advertised
in the newspapers.
Mr. Alderman LEATHOM objected, on the ground of expense;
there were 13 papers in the town, and the expense would be
be very great. _

Mr.-Councillor H. LA WRENCH thought it should be handed
to the gentlemen of the Press to make what use they thought
proper.
:the Report was then handed to the reporters, and it will be
seen above that we have inserted it.

DISCUSSIONS OF THE COUNCIL.
Some discussion then occurred on the 'notice of a motion by
-Mr. RATHBONR that no new business should be. discussed after
three o'clock at the council meetings. It was decided that it
should not be in the power of any member to Stop any discus-
sion going on when three o'clock arrived,:but that after that
hour no new business should be entered into.
WATCH RATE, COUNTY RATE, LIGHTING RATE, AND
SCAYENGERING RATE.
The Town-clerk read the report of the watch committee to the
following effect. That the next month being the annual period
for laying the watch rate in this borough, such rate will now
have to be raised in like manner as a county rate, and accord-
ingly to be levied by the overseers of the parish of 'Liverpool,
and of the townships comprised in the new,part of the borough,
under the assessments of the council, the warrant of the Mayor,
and the warrants ;hereupon of a corporate officer to be appointed
to act as a high constable. For the procuration of evidence on
which to ground the assessment, the committee submitted that
a committee should be appointed, with ftill power to call for all
requisite returns from the several overseers, &c. and that the
Mayor should be the chairman of such committee, with power
to grant all necessary precepts, &c. and to affix to them the
corporate seal, required by law. The committee finding much
complication and' consequent misunderstanding as to the seve-
ral rates, county, watch, lighting, and scavengering rates, sub-
mitted the following explanation.
The county rate upon the parish of Liverpool, had been up-
wards of £1.1,U00 per annum, upon the average of the last seven
years. It was levied for all county purposes, as, gaol, the
&c. Until the municipal act, it was a charge
parish,
ach
leai
sr and, punishment of prisoners, courts of justice,
and was collected by the overseers upon the
assessment, besides which, the parish contributed to
relieved. The whole of this rate upon Liverpool,
tpucn6alearrooionenuciteethilrn:aea: costs of the borough prosecutions, from which it was_
the municipal act to be borne by the corporation, eittvhaesr ninowpaly-
ments directly for the prosecution, maintenance, and punish.
meat of offenders, and the expense of gaols and coroners
charges, or in payment of the balances to the county treasurer,
for general county purposes. The corporation had also in re-
spect of the new parts of the borough, to bear their proportionate
obligation to the county rate.
The watch rate by the municipal act,
was limited to the.
average yearly sum expended for the nightly watch in Liver.
pool for the last seven years. That average amount was
rthaete ne,v under
parts the
of moliteni borough.cilac t,
£8,634 14s. lid., and the rate for it was4d. in the pound. This
swoa s a r
as extendedregiaur
de
liked themanner
parish
to
of Liverpool, this new rate was nothing more than the old watch
rate, laid since 21st Geo. 2d, by the late commissioners of watch,
scavengers, and lamps, and both the old and new parts of the
borough had for their contribution on the scale of the old
nightly watch, .gibe , benefit o,f a watch by day and by night, at i
the expense of the corporate estate.
The lighting rate was the old rate continued upon the potash

. .
of .Livorpool, as it was levied by the late commissioners, and
extended, in like manner, to the new parts. The rate is 4d. in
the pound.

scavengers' rate was the old rate continued. There was
no authority to extend this rate to the new parts of the boroUgh,
which, fur the present, remain in this.respect udder the general
highway act.
On the question being put by the Mayor, the aboie report
was adopted.
The TOWN-CLERK read a report from the committee on the
Boiough Court and Court of Requests, which set forth, that a
letter had been received from Mr. Timothy Parkinson, sergeant-
at-mace, dated 17th September. 1836, Which requested that the
subject of his bail should be taken into further consider-
ation, as he deemed it too large, and begged that it might be re-
duced, arid, in case this could not be complied with, he begged
to be informed what amount of compensation he might expect
in case of dismissal. To this the Town-clerk had written in re-
ply, that no alteration could be made in the amount of bail
required. but Mr. Parkinsson was requested to attend the com-
mittee on the following day—and further, that the latter could
not state what sum Mr. Parkinson might get if he claimed
compensation. When the comniittee met on the following day,
a letter wus received from Mr. Parkinson, stating that he could
not procure the large amount of bail required, and that his
difficulty had been increased by the lamented death of Mr.
Foster, to whin he should have applied, and who had offered to
be his security fur his former situation, but that he was ready
and willing to give the security which the oh corporation had
taken (£1,500.) Under these circumstances, the committee
recommended, as a less amount of security could not be taken,
that they should proceed to the appointment of a sergeant.
Mr. 11. LAWRENCE suggested that the report be referred
back to the committee, to see if some other arrangement could
not yet be come to.
The TOWN-CLERK said they had offered to take from Mr.
Parkinson four sureties of £5OO each, but this had been refused.
Mr. LAWRENCE said that was just what he was about to
recommend.

Mr. \VALMSLEY said any further arrangement with the ser-
geant-at-mace was impossible. The report was then adopted
on the motion of Mr. Rathbone, seconded by Mr.. H. Law-
rence.

The TowN CLERIC announced that a petition had been pre-
sented to the Treasury from Mr. Parlour, on the subject of his
claim for Compensation. This had been forwarded by the
Treasnry to the Mayor, to the purpose that he may. ask the
Council why they refuse compensation to Mr. Parlour. The
subject was referred to the committee on compensations, that
they may report to the Council.
The MAYOR said in reference to what had fallen from Mr.
Blackburn on the subject of referring to committees, and which
he had formerly attempted to reply to, he begged to say that it
had but seldom happened that they had granted full powers to
any committee. They always had a due regard for their own
dignity by directing that reports should be made back to them-
selves.
o crock ouncil then adjourned to Friday, the 30th inst. at-eleven
'

THE BOTANIC GARDEN EXHIBITION.

The second public exhibition of flowers and fruits at the Bo-
tanic Garden, and the last of the season, was held on Wednesday
last, The weather, as on the previous exhibitiou, was extremely
favourable, being a tine, clear, bright September day, bracing
with its freshness. As on the previous occasiou, tents were
erected along the top of the garden besides the greenhouses,
forming a long promenade; down the centre ran a broad table,
on which were placed the various flowers and fruits exhibited.
A table at the upper end of the marquee was devoted to flowers,
another below to fruits, and one on the extreme left to vegeta-
bles. burnediatels in front of this down the garden the foun-
tain played, exhibiting some very pretty devices : one in which
an apple was poised on the top of a jet of water had a very
pleasing effect. To the right of this a tent for refreshments was
erected, tastefully hung round with ivy, and to the left Stubbs'
military band was stationed enlivening the scene with many
beautiful airs. The garden since the last exhibition has
taai-
proved considerably in appearance, the shrubs looking bolder
and the beds more thickly planted, taking away much from the
naked appearance before presented. The unfinished part at
the bottom of the garden is also now completed, and added
much to the general appearance. Where betbre was ruin and
chaos there is now a pool of water, in the centre having au arti-
liicial rock which is converted into a fountain throwing up jets
of water, which falls around it, and surrounding the pool is a
mount of artificial rock. This forms an ornamental finish to
that end of the garden, which before looked barren and unfi-
nished. The company was not so numerous as on the former
occasion, which gave rather an air of flatness to the exhibi-
tion. Though numerous groups were parading about, yet the
garden did not present any thing like the crowded and ani-
mated appearance which it did on the opening. The flower
show also bore no comparison to the last; many of the plants
before exhibited were again shown, and though there were sever
ral rare specimens,
.yet generally the plants looked mean. This
may be attributed in a great measure to the time of the year.
The greenhouses, as before, were kept closed for fear of injury
to the plants. Of the fruit which was exhibited, however, we
cannot speak too highly; it was beautiful beyond description;
we never saw any superior to it; almost every kind of fruit
was • there in high perfection. The pines, grapes, melons,
plums, apples, pears, &c. &c. were spread out in rich and luxu-
rious profusion. To give an outline of the exhibition—we ob-
served at the top of the flower table the same group of the
cactaa trtbe as were before exhibited, from the hothouse of C.
Tayleur, Esq., one of which, a very rare plant, tha Serius Senilis,
having the appearauce of an old man's grey wig, won the prize.
Below this was a very fine plant of the plantain tribe, the pro-
perty of the garden, the Strelitzea ()rata. On the table were
several baskets of flowers, plants, and bouquets of great beauty.
A prize plant, the . property of Thomas Littledale, Esq., pre-
sented also a striking appearance on the table, the Yucca Phila-
mentosa ; it is a very tall plant, bearing a bold white flower.
An excellent specimen of the fern tribe, the Stay's Horn Fern,
the property of Wm. •Sznith, Esq., obtained that prize. A new
species of Tropceolum exhibited, from Valparaiso, South Ameri-
ca, is also deserving of notice, and obtained an extra prize ;
the property of Mr. 1 omlins. The Balsams were very indifferent.
The finest plant in the exhibition was an Eugenia Aqua, of the
Myrtle tribe. It is a magnificent plant, and the first that has
produced fruit in England; it bore three apples,- of a fig shape,
and of a deep and fine crimson colour. It is an East Indian
plant, and the property of the garden. Below this were one or
two fine specimens of Geraniums, the property of Thomas Little-
dale, Esq. At the bottom of the table was a splendid plant, the
Asclepias Solicifolia, bearing a very singular dower resembling
small green bladders. Near the bottom of the table was a very
fine plant, the Antura Arborea, bearing a very white large bell-
shaped flower, the propertyofMrs.Cropper. Near this were two
or three very beautiful specimens of Coxcombs, the property of N.
Walker, Esq., the president. At the bottom was a fungus plant
of the mushroom tribe, a very rare specimen, the property of
Charles Horsfall, Esq., called the Petra • Funguria, the stone
fungus, or mushroom stone, from the western coast of Africa.
A gigantic specimen of the Crilll4l4 Amabile, the property of
Charles Horsfall, Esq., ended this table. On the next table a
basket of dahlia bouquets, the property of Mrs. Preston, was
very ornamental. Below this the display of dahlias was very
splendid, their variegated appearance having a pretty effect.
Amongst the fruit was a beautiful globe pine, raised by but water,
the property of Mrs. Crossley, which obtained the first prize. A
very beautiful basket of fruit, containing figs, pears, grapes,
magnum bonum plums, and peaches, the property of Thomas
Littledale, Esq., obtained the £5 prize given by the president.
A basket of fruit, the property of Mr. Walker, also attracted a
good deal of attention. A basket of fruit, containing some very
tine grapes and some very beautiful pears, the property of Mrs.
Cropper, obtained an extra prize. A basket of black grapes,
the property of Mrs. Cropper, was also very fine. There was
also a bunch of green grapes, weighing nearly 51bs., which was
very beautiful. Below this was a collection of apples and pears
from the nursery of Mr. Whalley, of the South Crescent, which
attracted much attention, there being almost every description
of apple, and of the finest specimens. Below this the vegetables
were arranged, and were very fine, especially the celery.
The company began to disperse about four o'clock, as the af-
ternoon drew in cold. Subjoined we give a list of the prizes
awarded :
The best six Calceolarias—Messrs. Whalley.
Pan of Carnations, consisting of seven blooms, viz.:—
Perfection, Memnon, Rowtord, Bellerophon, Lady
Hood, Prince George, and Princess Victoria—Mr.
W, Thomson; of Everton. •
• Six Coxcombs—J. N. Walker, Esq.
Ferns—W. Smith, Esq., of Fulwood.
Grapes, (Lombardy,)—Mrs. Cropper.
Second prize of Grapes (Muscat)—Mrs. Preston.
The best Pan of Panseys—Charles Ilorsfall, Esq.
Melon (Egyptian Green Flesh)—C. Tayleur, Esq.
Orchidere plant—W. Smith, Esq.
Six Pelargoniums—T. Littledale, Esq.
Pine—Mrs. Crossley.
Succulent Plant—C. Tayleur, Esq.
Six Stove or Greenhouse Plants—Mrs. Cropper.
Ditto (Second Prize)—Messrs. Whalley.
Single Stove or Greenhouse Plant—C, Horsfall, Esq.
Ditto (Second Prize)—Mrs. Cropper.
Shrubbery Plant—Messrs. Whalley.
Herbaceous Plant—T. Littledale, Esq,
Pan of Six Dahlias—Mr. T. Fletcher.
Ditto (Second Prize)—Mr. T. Walker.
Three Heads of Celery—Mr. T. Walker.
- Basket of Vegtahles, consisting of celery, parsnips,
onions, carrots, French beans, turnips, cauliflowers,
red beet, parsley, vegetable marrow, savoys, cucum-
bers, and cabbage—Mr. T. Walker.
Second best basket of Vegetables, cauliflowers, onions, celery,
cabbage, parsnips, French beans, lettuce, peas, currot,, o
parsley—W. Smith, Esq.
Best basket of cut flowers—J. N. Walker, Esq.
Second ditto—H. W. Preston, Esq.
Best basket of plants—T. Littledale, Esq.
Second ditto—J. N. Walker, Esq.
The President's gift of £5
Littledale, 89., for the following f' 1 ,
cherries, nectarine; figs, strawberries, pears, currants, tipples,
was award_euid
.t
so
:t_hegr
rapes,(le n
letrienif)ll:s.
and plumbs.
or Mushroom Stone—C,
Exalts PRIZES.—Petra
nifla,iiiin, eEasrciil.l,
TClostpktim:tlouwierni pl. Bowers—Mrs. Preston.
ruit, grapes, figs, apples, currants,
apricots, melons, and lemons—W. Smith.
q.
Bali'sa. of Fruit, pines, melons, grapes, nee.
tarines, pears, and apples—Charles 'Tay.
o
leur,
Esq.
Basket
f Fruit, grape; pears, and apples—
_
Mrs. Cropper.

Ministers are, it is
is said, anxious to induce his Majesty to
consent to an immediate dissolution of Parliament. The re-
action which taking place in public opinion, and the reports
which have reached them from all quarters, of the state of the
Conservative registry all over the country for the ensuing year,
appalled them.
has They would fain take advantage of the
agitation they have contrived to excite on the subject of peer-
age reform, and make that supply the watch-word with which
Parliamentary reform supplied them on a former occasion. The
great Conservative meetings in Lancashire, Kent, Bucks,
Essex, and Suirolk, and the result of nearly all the recent elec-
tions have struck them with consternation and dismay: Let
the dissolution take place when it may, they will gain uo influ-
ence by the change. If they await the result of next year's
registration they will cut a still more sorry figure.—Surrey
Standard.

According to Mr. O'Connell, the Whigs have now no hope
but in throwing themselves into the arms of the Radicals; an
act of desperation which we shituld not be at all suprised to see
them adopt. In fact, by moderate men of all parties, hot even
excluding their own, the poor Whigs are universally scouted
and disclaimed; and they appear, therefore, to have no alter-
native left but to give up the contest altogether, or form the
alliance which their dictator points out to them. He, it. is true,
sweetens the draught and gilds the pill, by telling them it will
" popularize " their Administration. Bit what a precious
species of popularity must that he which discards the Sense and
property of a country, for an alliance with Popery in Ireland
and horsy sedition at home. As a forlorn hope the Whigs may
attempt it; but furlorn Hopes generally end in the Sacrifice of
those Who resort to them: