The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-07-08 00:00:00

LEASES.

Resolved, that it be recommended to the Council to grant a
new lease for the Catholic Schools, and that the fine be remit-
ted to £2O,
A number of applications-for the renewal of leases were read.
Mr. Cr. BLACKBURN rose to oppose the grant of a lease with-
out the usual fine to the Catholic Schools. He did not do so on
the ground of its being a catholic school. His decided conviction
was that, the only course by which they could avoid dissention
was to show no favour to any denomination of christians, or to
any schools whatever, but to deal with all perfectly equally
and demand the full value of the renewal of their leases from
all. Had it been for any other denomination he should have
taken exactly the same course. (Hear.)- He concluded with
moving that the grant be suspended for one month.
Mr. Councillor LAW itENcE. HEy WORTH said they were com-
pelled by law to give support to the established church which
was one denomination of christians. Mr. Blackburn's obser-
vations were rendered nugatory by that. Were they not com-
pelled to give support to an established church Mr. Black-
burn's observatiou3 would be correct, but as they were com-
pelled to give that support it was perfectly right to give support
to any other denomination of chrtstians.
The MAYOR would observe that this was the remission of a
part of the fine for, a school lease and not the support of a
church. _ _

Mr. Councillor S. HOPE was glad to hear such sentiments
as he had heard Coming from a member of the established
church. He had, however, much pleasure in seconding the
motion of Mr. Blackburn ; he only regretted that it was not
his own denomination he was voting against.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN wished to know why the interest
of the endowment for the chUrch had been ordered to be paid
by the treasurer now the church endowment was settled ?
The MAYOR said that, the last week, the decision of the Mas-
ter of the Rolls was not known. They were advised to pay the
usual half year's salary, with the understanding that it should
be refunded if the endowment should be confirmed. To delay
having paid them would have been to acknowledge the endow-
ment

Mr. Counsellor BOLTON wished it to be understood that the
rev. gentlemen had said, they were no parties to the endowment,
they held to the corporation for their salaries.
The finance committee reported, with the above exception,
and the leases were then confirmed.

WATCH COMMITTEE.

The report recommended an addition of £3O per annum to
the salary of Mr. Batcheldor for his increased duties, owing to
the extension of the borough, and expressed satisfaction with
his arrangements. It also advised the formation of a sick club
for the police force. Confirmed.

TOWN HALL COMMITTEL

Resolved, that the consideration of a proposal to build the
Mayor an open landau be postponed.
Resolved, that a case of champagne be ordered for the use of
the Mayor's table. Confirmed.

IMPROVEMENT COMMITTEE.

Resolved, that a communication be made to the dock com-
mittee, recommending the erection of water troughs beside the
(locks, for the use of cattle.—Confirmed.

MARKET COMMITTEE.

Resolved, that the surveyor be authorised to ,examine the
roof of St. John's Market and report thereon as to what it was
necessary to repair.
Several matters of minor importance were ordered.—Con-
firmed.

EDUCATION COMMITTEE.

At a meeting of the committee, on the 15th of June,—Resolv-
ed, on the motion of Mr. Walmsley, that the corporation schools
shall be opened each morning at nine o'clock by singing a
hymn:
Resolved, that there be holidays on Thursday and Saturday
afternoons, and that the holidays on Saturday mornings be
abolished.
Resolved, that the Irish system of religious education be
adopted and have a fair trial.
Resolved, that the first master have £5O a-year salary and
one penny per week for each of the.boys. That the second
master have £3O a.year salary and a halfpenny a-week from
each of the boys. That the first mistress hare.£3o a.year and.
M. a-week from each of the girls, and that the second mistress
have £2O a-year and a halfpenny a-week from each of the girls.
Mr. Councillor CaooPEtt., though 'a tnember of the committee,
Gould not allow this report to pass without proposing au amend-
ment. He objected to the introduction of the Irish selections
from the scriptures, and he did so not so much on account of the
selections themselves but because they were accompanied by
notes which Were calculated to confirm error. He should
move " that the proceedings of the education committee be
confirmed, with the exception of that part which refers to the
religious iustructioa of the-children,' and that the proposition to
introduce the Irish selections from the scriptures be referred to
the reconsideration of the committee, with a recommendation
that the Bible be substituted."
Mr. Councillor RUSHTON seconded the motion.
Mr. Couneillor Still:L.—Be kind enough to mention the
version of the Bible.
Councillor Dr. CARSON denied that there was any exclusion
of the Bible from these schools. The object of the committee
had been to introduce a system of education which .should be ac-
ceptable to all classes of the community. So far as he could
understand, there was nothing in the Irish system of religious
\education to which a christian could object. He never before
heard that there was anything objectionable in it. If they went
one step further they enteredyito a scene of contention, and he
found that the remedy which had been proposed was the best
that could be conceived, and he did. not think that any reason-
able person could object to it. It was, that a reading of the
scriptures .should be proposed to suit the different classes of the
ellmmunity. It-was the wish of the committee to accomplish
all the good that could be done to the people generally, without
any distinction of classes. He for one had been for disposing
of the schools and appropriating the money to the establish-
ment of ward schools. He thought they would then have avoid-
ed a great deal-of thii 'Clamour, and they might have established
a system o 1 education which would have raised the character of
the town of Liverpool.

Mr. Councillor HORSFALL, as the question had been raised,
felt it right to state that he felt some difficulty in regard to this
system of Irish education. The selections, the council were
aware, were in part from the authorised version of the scriptures,
a part from the Dailey Bible, and a part from a translation,
Which was not named, consequently, gentlemen who had not•
paid much attention to these selections could scarcely be com-
petent to give an opinion whether it was such a selection as
Ought to supercede the Bible. They ought to know well what
those selections were before they allowed them to supercede the
authorised version of the scriptures which they did know.
'Chese selections were placed in the schools to supercede the
Bible. (" No, no," from Mr. Shiel and others.) Gentlemen
said no. The Bible used in the schools was closed while the
'schools were open and not permitted to be opened till the
schools were closed, and then it was permitted for parties to
come and give instruction in it. The compilers of these selec-
tions said they were offered, not as a substitute for the sacred
volume itself, but as an introduction to it, and they had been
Compiled in the hope of sending out a more profitable version
of the word of God. An introduction to these selections said
" this number of scriptural lessons for schools has been corn-
Piled on the principles which have been already published on
the Old Testament, and contains the whole gospel of St. Luke."
Again," Nothing is more remote from the intention of the
Compilers of these lessons than to offer them as a substitute of
the whole Bible or to supercede the authorised version of the
established church." (Hear.) He apprehended that these
books were placed in the schools to supercede the Bible, so far
kg the schools here went. (" No," from Mr. Spiel, and cries
rbt." Order.") It appeared that their school committee were
carrying the point further than it was intended by the gentle-
Nen who compiled the selections, and he should be very glad if
the council would refer back that, report to the committee, with
a recommendation that they should introduce the Bible as a
Book of instruction into the schools; it was at present in express
terms excluded till after school hours; then the school was open,
kg any other room might be, for ministers of every denomination
14 f.te and instruct the children. He might also be permitted
to say that it had been his wish that the schools should be corn-
urenced, as they *used to: be, by a short prayer and trirrun ; that
Point was conceded to the Roman catholics, a difficulty arising
from the regulations of their church that they could not join
any other sect in prayer. He thought, as the compilers of
these, selections said they were not intended to supercede the
4lible, there could be no reason why it should be excluded during
the school hours. He must say the committee had done what
they thought best, but he could not agree with them, and on that
aCropper's
he made these observations. He should support Mr.
'roPper's motion.
('
Mr. Councillor Rail-180NR said he should request their can-
.
consideration to what he was `about to state. He was sorry
11 1. at that discussion had been introduced into that room—he was
51Prlar that it had been introduced out of doors. He did not
_"lnk it necessary to notice the vulgar scurrility of the Standard,
X!i-ther did he think it necessary to notice the stupid bigotry of
i',e Courier, proceeding, as he had reason to know it did from
Pen of a peace-maker by profession, who had resorted to
'Ol calumnies for the base objects of sectarian zeal and sup-
porting faction, and it was then time to come a little to facts.
rh,ir . •
object was to cast every species of odium on those who took
1. Management of the corporation schools. He would tell that
,gentleman that the statements he had made in the pulpit which
!_tte
.had desecrated were false—that his statements were false;
the
he hoped the reporters would put that down. That what
'i,: Rev. Hugh M€Neile had stated, through, the Liverpool
knew what
false, was unchristian ; he would not say that he
what he had stated was false, he left that between God
and his conscience. The sermon of his ip the Courier was a
most wicked violation of truth and fairness. He would now tell
111eni what had been done in these schools under the direction
Of, the clergy. They had the bible read, and very properly, to
the older classes. They had five selections of th bible read,
4tul they had five catechisms to commit to memory, and it might
?'aLs, well have been in Latin for thenokneoxwplleadngaetitoh,n ochf iltdhreenscrhiapd_
those cathechisms. They had
England
they had none of the beautiful parts of the church of
,ogland service, and the collects were excluded by those der-
10rolen who were now making such a noise about these selleif-
"s There was no explanation given of the liturgy.
e °linger classes were taught, or at least were heard,tler reade-
'ilk lessons, on the crucifixion and the agony in the garden
.Would ask any christian in that room whether these were
7;lo.iects on which young children ought to learn their lessons.
se., knew a lady who was no ways fastidious who WilS absolutely
0"1 on examining the children, the chapter on the agony
th;"lthY• He wished to know what respect they could have for
t4stsubject when they were to cry over it and thumb it as a
tit (Hear.) It was said they wanted to exclude the bible;
shat
wanted to do no such thing ; he had denied it before in
st4t r"111: and the Rev. Hugh APl•leile might have read those
'esches, and have known that it was false, and it was false ;
would speak up. The selections were read before, as they

_

were read now, as an introduction to the bible, and to induce
the children to read• the bible when they came to an age to un-
derstand it. He was sure that the bible would be more read,
and the children would be better churchmen under the present
system than they were before. They now had the selections
read to those-who could not read, and passages were committed
to memory which were calculated to be of benefit in after life,
which was not formerly done by those keepers of the tabernacle
when the schools bad been'under their charge. He had feltthat,
when they were taking the schools from the hands of the clergy,
they ought to do it with as much delicacy as they could.
He would appeal to any member of the committee whether he
had not fought for the clergy as if he were a son of the church,
or whether he had brought forward any of his own sectarian
views there. Let not the Rev. Hugh say it was be-
cause he did not value his own light of the gospel, and think it as
true as he did his. Without the consistency of the catholic, in
professingopenly infallibility he, the (Rey. [I. M.) still professed
it more than any catholic. And this was what was called exclud-
ing the bible; would they, for the name of the thing, when there
were thousands depending on it both for their temporal and
eternal good, refuse the present selections? He was not willing
to use the slang terms under which the Rev. Hugh IVPNeile
concealed his ignorance of the first principles of religion and
charity, which was a foundation beyond• his hope. He would
quote the scriptures to him, "Although yon may prophesy in
my name, although you may do many wonderous works, yet if
you have not charity you are none 9f mine, and I shall say, de-
part from me, workers of iniquity, for I know you not." He
had passed sleepless nights in feeling the deep responsibility
which had devolved on him as chairman of this committee—in
feeling that on the right decision of the committee depended
both the temporal and eternal interests of thousands; and he
had given it the most conscientious help he could, and had
thrown everything that was sectarian, and everything that was
patty -away; and, under the Almighty, he believed that this
system would do more for the religious education of the poor
than was ever done before. After that he would read to them
what it was that the Rev. Hugh M‘l•Teile had stated of the mem-
bers of the committee, and he would ask any man who was not
in the habit of listening to the vulgarities of that gentleman, if
it would not much more properly proceed from punch and
judy ; whether it was the language of a christian minister, of au
honest man, or of a man who knew what the courtesies of life
were. [The speaker then read several long extracts from a ser-
mon of Mr. M`Neile, reported in the Courier, commenting on
them as he proceeded, and designating them as ungentlemanly,
and the language as unfit to proceed from a christian minister.]
We give the extracts :
" But it may be urged, this is a small matter. Why ascribe
so much importance to two schools in the town of Liverpool?
We answer. This is the syren voice of the enemy of all righte-
ousness. It has ever been his practice (as we have seen) to do
mischief b little and little. To avoid alarm and reaction, he
is satisfied to take instalments of evil. Each step is short, and
smooth, and gentle; but this, instead of being any indication of
harmlessness ; is of the nature of a' snare. It was while men
slept, that tares were sown in the field, and the sower of evil is
loth that men should be awakened. But be not deceived. This
is no local matter. It begins in Liverpool it is true. ,It must
have a local commencement. But it cannot end where it be-
gins. It is a feeler of the national pulse. Is England indeed
so stupified in a sleep of infidel indifference to revealed truth,
that she will tamely submit to this pro-popery system ? It will
be pleaded as a precedent. •The time is well choosen. The op-
portunity is shrewdly seized. Why ? Because at this time
there exist a number of town-councils' in England, composed
during a violent reaction of men's minds last winter, who it is
to he -feared, are reedy and willing to follow this precedent ;
and if the enemies of God's truth could compass this rejection
of the Bible from the schools in the corporate towns, it would
bee grand achievement, and go far towards the accomplishment
of their final purposes with regard to this kingdom. Your town
is honoured so far as to be the spot at which they are attempting
to inoculate England with the popish virus of this wicked sys-
tem. People of Liverpool, will you bear it! That is the ques-
tion we intend to ask you next week. We shall set the matter
fairly before you. We lave no authority to interpose in the
management of schools at belong to the corporation :we sub-
mit to the powers that he in all things lawful : but we cannot
submit to send Protestant children to schools where the Protes-
tant Bible is not sent. If the corporation has so much money
and so much liberality, let them set up popish schools. I say
not that it would be well done, it can never be well to teach
men what is opposed to the word of God. But if they talk of
justice to numbers, let them be just to both sides. 'lto plead
tenderness of conscience ou one part, as a pretext for forcing
conscience on the other, this, under the sheep's clothing of liber-
ality is to be most illiberal, most bigotted, most exclusive, and
unjust
"Beware of compromise. It is quite possible that the council
may, on Wednesday back out of the resolutions of the Educa-
tion Committee. It is possible that they may see that the in-
stalment which they have unwarily demanded is too much for a
fist step. If they reject the recommendation of their commit-
tee altogether, and leave the schools as heretofore, let us give
God thanks for his overruling mercy. But/bewareof compromises.
It is more likely that they will put their heads together to de-
vise some more moderate scheme to begin with, some plausible
admission which may have the effect of siisiding the friends of
Scriptural education. And, not hitting upon this all at once, it
is quite possible that they may come to no decision on Wednes-
day, but take another month to concoct their scheme, and put us
off our guard,"
If any gentleman in that room, after what he had read, did not
feel disgusted he would say he did not value much their chris-
tianity. He hoped the council would show their disgust of that
language by concurring with the recommendation of the edu-
cation committee, which would at once put an end to this dis-
graceful proceeding.
Mr. Councillor CROPPER wished to explain. He thought
there was something personal in the last allusion. •
Mr. Councillor RarnBONE hoped he would not be permitted
to explain; he (Mr. R.) had frequently been refused.
Mr. Councillor HoitsFau., hoped he had given no offence to
Mr. Rathbone by his expressions.
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE must say that Mr. Horsfall had
acted towards him with courtesy.

Mr. Councillor CROPPER said he had had no communication
whatever with Mr. M'Neile on this question; neither was he
certain that he should bring it forward when he entered the
room. _

Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN said this was a subject of great
importance, and he wished to offer a few observations on it. It
was, perhaps, not known that this system was originally intro::
duced into Ireland principally by Mr. Secretary, now Lord
Stanley, and was defended by Mr. Stanley, who explained fully
the objects and plans of its institutions which wereto do away
with the great divisions existing in Ireland ; and it was a plan
looked on by the ministry as highly desirable to be adopted,
that if possible by it the children of protestant and catholic pa-
rents might be brought together, and that the feuds which ex-
isted in that unhappy country might be put an end to. This
system had originated in a benevolent intention. The plan
proposed, so far as the religious part was concerned, was, as
protestants would not read the Douay version of the bible, and
catholics would not read the authorised version, to strike out
some plari by which those difficulties might be obviated. In
order to accomplish this object a board was instituted consisting,
of several denominations of christians. , The Roman Catholic
and the Protestant archbishop of Dublin, and the Rev. H. Car-
lisle were on that board, the latter a man of decided orthodoxy,
who was now so convinced of the value of this system of educa-
tion that he had relinquished his pastoral charge, and consigned
the whole of his time to the promotion of the present systm ;
and government were so convinced of the value of his services
that they offered him „VW° a year to devote himself to it; but
he with a feeling which did him honour refused to receive any
salary but what was an equivalent to his former income, namely,
£3:10 a-year. (Cheers.) This system came from the recom-
mendation of those three gentlemen well qualified to recom-
mend it. They were three men of prominent characters before
the public. The plan they had adopted with regard to scrip-
tural education was to effect a new translation of certain por-
tions of scripture to be introduced into these schools with the
sanction of the whole board. The books already published
were three in number ; he held one in his hand. They were
neither translations nor copies of the authorised version, nor of
the Douay version. The great object had been to effect a true
and faithful translation ; and he had vet to learn that any solid
ground of objection could be raised either against the transla-
tion or against the notes appended. Mr. Walmsley informed
him that these commissioners had never yet had any division
on any subject before them. Mr. Cropper had objected not so
much on account of the translations as on account of certain
notes appended to them. He thought it would have been only
fair if he had stated what were the notes to which he particu-
larly objected. It was on that hung the whole controversy. If
there were objectionable notes it was much to be regretted, and
they had better be pointed out He would refer to one or two
of the principal objections. tape first was, he thought with re-
gard to the note contained selections made front the bible
in the first book, which was from the old testament, comprising
the first history. And he would say that there were remarks in
those selections by the way, and there was a reference from
time to time to different parts of the sacred scriptures, and to
passages in the book of Psalms on the creation. They had also
the comments of different writer's on the subject, and a better
plan of teaching the scriptures could not be well devised ; he
considered it a most admirable plan. He thought that very cir-
cumstance of reference to parts of the scriptures completely re-
moved the idea of these lessons being brought out as a substi-
tute for the scriptures. They had nu intention of casting the
slightest imputation on the scriptures. But to return to the note
lie had mentioned it was here. In the text it was, " it shall crush
thy bead, and thou shalt lie in wait for his heel."* The note was,
" divers of the fathers say, ipsa —she, the woman, shall crush ;
others, ipsum—it shall crush. The sense is the same, for it is
by the seed of the woman, that is, Jesus." It was said that this
was ca'culated to favour the Roman catholic worship of the
Virgin Mary. It merely stated the fact, "that divers of the fa-
thers have it ipstiza, others ipsa." Then followed the explana-
tion, that " the, sense is the same, for it is by her seed, Jesus
Christ, that she crushes the serpent's head." (Hear.) Another
passage was, "the first man is of the earth earthy, the second
man is of the Lord of Heaven ;" that was the authorised version.
In this book the translation was this, "the first man is of the
earth earthy, the second man is of the heaven heavenly." It
was followed by a note in explanation of it. It had been con-
tended by various parties that this alteration had been made in
order to conciliate the socinian part of the board, and that they
had taken out the passage, " the,,Lord of Heaven," and trans-
lated it " of heaven heavenly" in order to conciliate that party ;
and it was given as a sample of the spirit of the board, of what
they were willing to give up. What was the fact with regard to
the passage ? He was no Gieck scholar himself, hut he had
inquired of gentlemen who were competent to give the informa-
tion on the subject, and that passage was a disputed passage,
not as to the translation, but as to the bearing in the ancient
version. They were aware that there were a great number of
ancient versions which were referred to by learned men ' • and it
so turned out that the versions which were considered as the
best authorities gave the passage as, "of heaven heavenly ;"
and the opinion was, that the phrase, "Lord of Heaven," had
been mistranslated. This was the opinion of Dr. Adam Clarke,
and of Greesebach, and of a very celebrated German critic; and
no one would suspect Dr. Adam Clarke of socinianism. They
had given the passage as it ought to be translated, yet this was
pat forwards as one of the grounds of attack • and he entreated
the council to reflect that if such grounds as these were brought
forward by people who had gone over these translations, as Peter
Pindar says, " Mousing for faults," they.could not have a better
testimony of the correctness of these translations. There was
much said on the introduction of this book. It was said it con-
tained the whole gospel of St. Luke, and yet its opponents say
there are eight verses omitted. This was true. There were
eight verses omitted of the first chapter, and, instead of those
verses, a short condensation of them was given. He would
grant that this was a matter of opinion about the propriety of
this omission,. but he thought that any gentleman who would
take the trouble to read those eight verses would see the reason
of their omission. They contained the annunciation, as it is
called, to the Virgin Mary that she should become the mother
of Jesus Christ—and the sense was faithfully given in the para-
graph. This was a great fault with Mr. M'Neile, and he lifted
up his hands and eyes in astonishment. He had one or two
remarks to make on this. There could be no suspicion in any
man's mind that their being left out had anything to do with
protestant and catholic; it was a question that did not touch
on that in the smallesedegree. (Hear.) There occurred in
the course of the same passages what persons might think it

The text is, "it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise
his heel."