The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-06-08 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRIDAY

The adjourneddebate on the motion of want of confidence
in the present government was resumed by Mr. SMELL, who
said that the motion, as worded by Sir R. Peel, did not con-
demn the measures proposed by the government, and, if car-
ried, would not prevent the right hon. baronet, if successful,
from bringing forward the very. same measures hereafter
should he obtain the reins of government. He then referred
to the forign policy of the ministry, and asked if the house
would transfer it from the hands of Lord Palmerston to those
who, in 1829, had abandoned Turkey to Russia, and who, by
allowing the treaty of Adrianople to be entered into, had laid
the ground-work of all the difficulties which had since pre-
sented themselves in the Levant. He next defended the do-
mestic policy of the government, and contended that Ireland
would present insuperable obstacles to any government formed
under the auspices of Sir It. Peel.

Sir EL CAN:NIN G was of opinion that Lord Palmerston con-
ducted his negotiations in a spirit too exclusively English, the
result of which he feared would he that serious consequences
might be apprehended, at no distant day, to the tranquility
of Europe. If the noble lord had proceeded in a more Eu-
ropean spirit he would have acted more wisely.
Mr. C. B ULLIR treated the motion of Sir R. Peel as a
question altogether of party, and it was in that light only that
the division should be considered. The hon. gentleman as-
serted that the Duke of Wellington had resigned office not
merely because of his defeat of the question of the civil list,
but because of the disturbed state of the country, and the
probability of a defeat on the question of parliamentary re-
form. There was no weakness of that description in the pre-
sent government, and Lord Palmerston had acquired an in-
fluence for Great Britain in foreign councils, such as con-
trasted in a most gratifying manner with the state of things
in the latter portion of the administration of the Duke of
Wellington. The right hon. bart. found fault with ministers
for pursuing a system of conciliation, although, when he was
himself last in power, his whole policy was that of taking up
the measures of his opponents and availing themselves of
their aid in carrying them through the house.
Lord DUNGANNON declared his want of confidence in
ministers, and said that the recent elections were a convincing
proof that the ministry had lost the confidence of the people
as well as of that house. He would say, that not only was
there a want of confidence on the part of the people in the
present ministry, but a general disgust prevailed against them
for their unconstitutional retention of power after the majo-
rities which had decided against their measures. He was
very sure if the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) should find,
when in power, that his measures were not supported by the
house, he would never consent to retain office by chicanery.
Sir H. VERNEY referred to a report that Mr. Walter was
sent down by the conservative members of that house to Not-
tingham, to stand for that borough, on the principle that he
was opposed to the new poor law, although they themselves
supported that law. It was also said that he was supported
by the Carlton Club—(cries of "no "). He hoped it was
not so for the credit of the house; for, if true, a more dis-
creditable proceeding had seldom taken place. The hon.
baronet gave his entire confidence to the government.
Col. SIBTH ORP had so bad an opinion of the present go-
vernment, that he could not give them the smallest portion of
his confidence. Their shuffling conduct was too bad for the
devil himself.

Mr. HAWES opposed the motion of Sir R. PEEL, and
contended that the measures contemplated by government,
would give such a general stimulus to trade as would create a
revenue which would soon cover the existing deficiency.
Lord STANLEY said he thought the ministry might have
proposed a bold and manly counter declaration to the mo-
tion of his right hon. friend, instead of by the public opposi-
tion which it had met, accompanied by a tacit admission of
the truth of his proposition. He had no doubt that the
ministry were not only without the confidence of the house,
but that they had not the confidence of their own support-
ers. This was proved by the fact, that in a number of divi-
sions upon questions of great importance, such as the ballot,
&c, they would have found themselves in an alarming mino-
rity had it not been that the conservatives had stepped in to
their aid against their own ordinary supporters. The right
hon. gentleman, Mr. Macauley, had in his speech boasted
that the ministry were supported by the favour of the crown,
and he had added that this was the best support a ministry
could have—(cheers). This was strange language from a
whig minister—(cheers). It was, in fact, the most danger-
ous doctrine that could be whispered by a minister into the
ear of a sovereign of the house of Hanover—(great cheering).
With respect to the resultof their government, it was to be
remembered that if Jarnaica'rernained tranquil it was because
they were over-ruled and controlled in the measures they
had proposed. While, on the other hand, it was admitted
that the finances of the country were in a deplorable condi-
tion from mismanagement, because in those matters the go-
vernment had acted without check or control of any kind—
(cheers). The noble lord then contended that however glad

tbo country pight bo toict rtd, by 1116a112 of a gourd eh

:ion, of a ininii

y which had, foe too long a period, crippled
the energies of the country, yet they bad a right to demand
the nature of the causes which had led to a dissolution ; and
though that house had no right to question the prerogative
of the crown in dissolving the parliament, yet for having ad-
vised that dissolution, the ministers must be responsible to a
future parliament. It was most unconstitutional to call on
the house to discuss measures of importance under the me-

nace of a dissolution of parliament ; for by so doing, they
trenched upon the independence of hon. members, by expos-
ing them to the temporary prejudices of their constituents,
to protect them from which was the original reason for leng-
thening the duration of parliaments. The noble lord, ad-
verting to the course taken by the noble and hon. members
for Lincolnshire, said that their voting against the corn laws
next week, would be in the eyes of their constituents but a
poor atonement for their vote in favour of ministers upon the
motion of his right hon. friend. 'With respect to. the charge
made against him of inconsistency, he had no hesitation in
saying that he and Sir Robert Peel had communicated 11111-
Nally their opinions to each other on all great political
questions, and that he was prepared to take his share in what-
ever responibility might be cast upon his right hon. friend.
The noble lord here retorted, amidst the cheers of the house,
upon Mr. Handley in the happiest vein, showing, how often
that gentleman had changed his political creed, arid advised
him in future to abstain from personal attacks which might
be apt to draw down retorts, which could not be very plea-
sant, however humble the quarter from which they proceeded.
The noble lord then intimated that the time had arrived when
the iniquities of the present government should be put an end
to, and resumed his seat amidst great cheering.
Lord J. RUSSELL denied that the present ministry had
by their measures crippled the energies of the country. On
the contrary, neither in the colonies, in Canada, nor at home,
had its energies shown any want of strength, while in Ireland
they had won the affections of that generous people to the
crown by the justice of their proceedings. He quite assent-
ed to the proposition, that if the House of Commons, even
without assigning reasons, refused and continued to refuse
its confidence to a ministry, it was bound to resign, with the
one alternative of dissolution. It was much more difficult,
since the passing of the Reform Bill, for a government to
carry on the affairs of legislation, because, since then, fair
allowance should be made, not only for the opinions of in-
dividual members, but also for the influence which the opi-
nions of their constituents might cause in their conduct ;
and this led of necessity, and always would lead hereafter,
under any ministry, not only to the alteration, but to the
abandonment of many measures; for henceforth no govern-
ment could even possess the same extent of the confidence
of the house as was formerly not unusual. The noble lord
then taunted Sir R. Peel with having been a member of an
administration which allowed seats in that house to be bought
and sold as private property, and which allowed 800,000 hu-
man beings to be treated as goods and chattels, and then
imputed to the right hon. baronet, as matter of grave cen-
sure, the not having done all that had since been done by
the present government, such as the Poor-law Bill, the Tithe
Bill, the Municipal Corporation Bill, &c. ; and asserted that
no administration had ever, in the course of ten years, car-
ried more important measures through parliament than that
of which he was a member, and which had been so calumni-
ated in the course of that debate; and all these improve-
ments had been effected without shaking in the slightest
degree the rights of property, or occasioning anything revo-
lutimiary in its character. If the government had resigned
on being defeated on the sugar duties, it would have been
said that they never intended to have really carried the mea-
sures they proposed. In order, therefore, to prove their
sincerity, they resolved to promote the discussion of their-
mcasures, and, before abandoning them, to appeal to the
constituency of the country. The noble lord, in reference
to the corn-laws, said he had no doubt but Sir Robert Peel
contemplated some very important changes in those laws,
should he come into power; for, though he adhered to the
sliding scale, he had not stated how low or how high he
would allow the scale to slide. He was certainly mysterious
in what he said upon the subject ; but still as he (Lord John
Russell) interpreted the oracle, the right hon. baronet would
propose some very important alterations. Even if the pre-
sent government were to resign, parties in the house were so
nicely balanced that the right lion. baronet could not go on
with his administration without an appeal to the people.
And this was a justification of the course pursued by govern-
ment ; because, as a dissolution was, under any circum-
stances, inevitable, the resignation of the ministry, without
appealing to the people, would be a virtual abandonment of
the measures they proposed. The noble lord then intimated
that the present ministry would not make any further delay
in appealing to ths people than was necessary for passing the
financial measures necessary for the public service, and that
parliament should again be called together at the earliest
convenient period. (Cheers.)

Sir R. PEEL, in reply, denied the justice of the imputations
made against him, of not having done that which had sub-
sequently been done by the Ministry, for, in fact, he was the
first to originate alterations in the criminal law—(cheers) ;
and in his short administration of 1833, he had proposed
measures respecting the dissenters which had been considered
as very liberal by hon. members on both sides of the house.
(Cheers.) The noble lord, in enumerating the bills which
had been passed, had forgotten to enumerate the dangers he
had escaped with the assistance of the conservative party in
that house. What would he have done on the ballot, and
what with the new Reform Bill, had it not been for the con.
servatives ? He stood, upon many occasions, almost alone,
as regarded his own supporters • and, but for the conserva-
tives, must have looked on during the storm, while the
anchors were uprooted by which the British Monarchy was
moored. (Great cheering.) The right hon. baronet then
contrasted the flourishing condition in which he left the
revenue of the country, with a surplus of £2,000,000, with
the condition in which they were now placed, exhibiting an
enormous deficiency, and said that after a long absence from
office it was preposterous to expect that he should pledge
himself, should he succeed to power, to any particular remedy
for an evil produced by others, and the causes of which he
had not at present the necessary means of ascertaining. He
next contended that it was unconstitutional for the Govern-
ment to hold office after having lost the confidence of the
house, and therefore it was that he had brought forward his
motion of want of confidence. It was equally unconstitu-
tional, in his opinion, for a Government, after making up its
mind to dissolution, to bring forward exactly such. measures
as would tend to damage the existing House of Commons,
the confidence of which it had lost in the eyes of the con-
stituency of the country. (Cheers.) He admitted that they
must have the Sugar Bill, but to that no opposition was
offered, and they had no right to bring forward an other
measure before resorting to a dissolution. In reference to
the corn laws, the right hon. baronet would not pledge him-
self to maintain the present bill exactly as it now stood ; for
he was constantly receiving letters from the best friends of
agriculture intimating improvments which might be made in
the details of that measure ; but he still was of opinion that
the sliding scale should be adhered to. More than this he
would not say, for every word he uttered he was so closely
pinned down to by hon. gentlemen, that he felt it necessary
to be cautious—(cheers)—more particularly because they
drew larger inferences from what he said than his words were
intended to, or possibly could, convey. (Cheers.) What-
ever might be the event of the discussion, he should take his
leave of it, content with the course he had pursued in the
vindication of the constitutional rights of the House of Com-
mons. (Much cheering.)
The house-then divided, and the motion of Sir R. Peel was
carried by a majority of 312 to 311.

The announcement of the numbers was received with long
continued cheers.
On the question that the house at its rising do adjourn to
Monday,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that on Monday it was the inten-
tion► of the Government to move so much of the miscellane-
ous estimates as could not be omitted without great inconve-
nience to the public service.
Several Hon. MEMBERS—Corn laws ! corn laws !
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would state on Monday what
course he would take.
(immense 'cheeling from the opposition benches.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, " I shall be quite satisfied in
stating on Monday what course I shall pursue ; but the right
hon. gentlemen haVing, in his reply, brought forward a num-
ber of new charges; which had not been heard of before, I
must have time to deliberate as to what course it may be ne-
cessary to take in order to vindicate the conduct of the Go-
vernment."
Sir R. PEEL—I think that the greater part of the speech
of the noble lord was an attack upon myself—(hear, hear).
I certainly should he sorry if it were possible to impute to me
the taking any unfair advantage in bringing forward charges.
I assure the noble lord, if I did so, it was contrary to my
intention ; for, knowing that the noble lord could not reply
to me, I said not one word on the subject of foreign policy,
I said not one word except in connection with charges made
against myself. Ido not deprecate any course which the
noble lord may think it.necessary to pursue; but I should
be sorry, I should be very sorry, if he thought I took the ad-
vantage of a reply to make an attack.
Mr. HINDLEY—I do not care twopence for the ch
which have been made, but I am anxious for a discussi
the corn laws. I hope that on Monday the noble ion
say he is determined to bring on that important questio
Mr. HUME : I cannot understand why the noble lord is
not prepared to say when he will discuss the corn laws.
Ample time has been given. Tuesday being the first open
day, the noble lord ought to fix it for that day.
The house, at its rising, adjourned to Monday.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the house
adjourned at half-past three.