The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-11-23 00:00:00

THE CORPORATION SCHOOLS

The MAYOR called upon Mr. Isaac Holmes for the motion
of which he had given notice.
Mr. Councillor Isaac HOLMES said, at the last meeting of
Council a statement was made as to the number of children
who attended the schools belonging to the Corporation. In
consequence of that statement, be asked the Councillor for
Pitt-street Ward what number of those children were mem-
bers of the Church of England? Soon after, the Councillor
for Lime-street Ward said the great majority of the Protes-
tant children attended the church, and belonged to the
church.—(" No, no." Mr. Blackburn signified that he had
not said so.)—ln consequence of this, Mr. James, the minis-
ter of Kirkdale, called upon him (Mr. Holmes), and said it
was extremely strange that such a statement should have
been made, as Dr. Buck had declared there were not twenty
of the children went to church. He (Mr. Holmes) after-
wards accompanied Mr. James to the North School, where,
on asking the question, he was informed that there were '268
Protestant boys and 94 girls, exclusive of the infant scholars.
He asked what number of them attended the church ? The
reply was 31 boys and 29 girls; in all 63. He (Mr. Holmes)
said, " What becomes of the remainder?" The reply was,
" I cannot tell." He (Mr. Holmes) then asked, " Do all
who attend the church belong to parents who themselves attend
the Church of England." The answer, " I really cannot tell."
The tact was they might be anythingarian; or nothing-
arians ; they knew nothing about it. He said to Mr. James,
and they all knew what sort of a minister he was.—(clear,
and laughter.) He believed he (Mr. James) was above his
praise—a man whose character was such as would set laugh•
ter and jeers at defiance.—(Renewed cries of "hear" and
laughter.) He said to Mr. James, what an excellent oppor-
tunity there was of sending to the parents of these children,
and seeing that each or the little ones attended some plcce of
worship. He wrote a note from the school-room to Mr.
Blackburn, to inquire if he might be favoured with the names
of the protestant children. He thought, in fact, he had a
right to look at the books and find it out himself, but this
was not permitted. He believed that the books had hitherto
been regularly opened, not only to.the members of the coun-
cil, but Lo every clergyman. He received, in reply to his
note, an answer from Mr. Blackburn to say that the Educa-
tion Committee met on the following day. In due time he
received another note, which said that the management of the
school had been delegated to them (the Education Commit-
tee) by the council, and to the council alone were they re-
sponsible, they should therefore decline compliance with his
request. This was as much as if he had asked the Education
Committee to be accountable to him! Mr. James and him-
self went next day when the religious instruction was going
on. He then learned that Dr. Buck only occasionally at-
tended, and that Mr. Stokes had deserted the schools alto-
gether. He asked the roaster if he might be allowed to look
at the books. Ile was told that they used to show the books,
but could not now because of the new resolution of the Edu-
cation
Committee. He was now obliged to come and make
a motion in the council to obtain this information, because he
could not get it elsewhere. No children ought to be taken
into those schools, he maintained, without a pledge from the
parents that they would attend a place of worship.—(Cries of
"pshaw" from several liberal members.) Mr. James was
asked, while at the schools, to attend, and he was told that
they would be glad of his assistance. He (Mr. Holmes)
asked him if he would. He said—" No, I can't. See, here
is the Roman catechism on the table! I cannot in consci-
ence attend, however wishful I might be to instruct the pro-
testant children." It was the first time he (Mr. Holmes) had
seen a catholic catechism, and on reflection he (Mr. Holmes)
approved of the scruples of Mr. James, and fully agreed With

Mr. Councillor COOPEIt seconded the motion. He thought
the books ought to be open to all. The Education Com-
mittee consisted of thirteen gentlemen, who were all of one
political opinion (" Of course," from Mr. Earle); and he
therefore begged to move that Mr. Isaac Holmes b placed
on the Education Committee,

Mr. Councillor HoLlutss.—i beg to decline it. (Laughter.)
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN thought it would not be ne-
cessary for him to take up much of
_the time of the council
to induce them to reject th,e proposition of Mr. Holmes.—
Mr. Blackburn then proceeded (in a speech remarkable
chiefly for its length, and the time which it occupied) to
contend that it was a principle laid down in the municipal

bill, that committees should make their reports from time to
time to the council, which reports, when so made, should be
open to confirmation or rejection. This was laid down in
the 70th clause of the municipal bill. It therefore followed
hat the council reposed confidence in these committees for
he management of the business entrusted to them, and for
reporting from time to time such of their proceedings as were
brought to perfection. But, in the very nature of things,
transactions which were inchoate, or in the course of being
perfected, could not be laid open to inspection without being
injurious to the interests taken cognisance of by the com-
mittee. This applied more particularly to the Finance and
Improvement Committees, the disclosure of the proceedings
of which, before they were ripe, might be deeply injurious.
If they applied the same principle to the Education Corn-
, mittee, the proceedings of. that committee ought not to be
pre-disclosed, and their proceedings be subjected to the exa-
mination of any member of the council who thought fit to
take the trouble. They must, on the admission of that prin-
ciple, by fair reason apply it to all the committees. On that
ground he trusted that the council would reject the motion
proposed by the member for Scotland Ward; and on that
view of the case he should not move an amendment, but
meet it with a direct negative. What he contended fur was,
that the council should show their confidence in the Educa-
tion Couainitiee, by withholding such permission, and leave
it to the discretion of that committee to lay open their books
or to refuse it, as in their discretion they should think fit.
He was not at all afraid to enter into the discusiion of the
question as to the propriety of this particular course. He
thought the council were bound to leave the committee dis-
cretion to act as they pleased in this matter; but he would
meet the councillor for Scotland Ward on his own grounds,
and would point out the reasons why the Education Corn-
mittee had, in the exercise of sound discretion, refused coin- '
pliance with his request. The councillor for Scotland Ward
had called on Tuesday week at the school, and saw in the
first instance the head toaster and stated to him that he
wished to see the books in which were inserted the names
of the children, as he called it, of the Protestant Church—
es though dissenters were not Protestants, the common error
into which ignorant and vulgar minds fell—that he might
have an opportunity of examining the children belonging to
the Protestant Church. The head master very wisely ob-
jected to allow him that information without the sanction of
the committee. He afterwards applied to the juniormaster,
after the first master had refused, but he also refused—(hear.)
Mr. Blackburn they pi oceeded to contend that the member
for Scotland Ward, as he supposed, a recent convert to the
Church of England, and disapproved of these schools, and
considered that a minister of the Church of England could
not conscientiously attend there and give instruction; enter-
taining these views, if he were enabled to go amongst the
parents of • the children, the effects of his visits were to pre-
judice their minds, and induce them to draw away the chil-
dren from the schools. And was it not discretion to refuse
to give such information to an individual obviously hostile to
the object they had in view : were they to give facilities to a
hostile individual? The schools were open to all—Dissent-
ers, Roman Catholics, or Churchmen; they were welcome
to receive the best instruction they could give them. The
children went there desiring, instrucoon, departed without any
rigtd exam??? alien as 15 Keir religious princzples. They had
no concealment in the schools. If a man came with a hos-
tile intention and a desire to do them injury, where was the
man that would give that individual that opportunity ? Could
there be anything like secresy in the schools when they were
open to the public. The doors bad never been closed against
any body. The councillor for Scotland Ward had said it
was inconsistent for the members of the established church
to take part in the instruction given at the schools; but there
were some of a different opinion. "Many clergymen in
various parts of the kingdom were strongly attached to the
mode of education pursued, and it was winning its way. In
Ireland it was diffusing the blessings of education among the
people; and the great number of Catholics among the popu-
lation of Liverpool, rendered it right that it should be intro-
duced here, if it were not right to apply the system to other
parts of the country, which he contended that it was. They
were taunted with having no instruction communicated by
clergymen. Whose fault was that? (Hear.) Had they
not been refused that assistance? Had they not humbled
themselves to obtain the assistance of the clergy from the
first, but they had refused assistance. The schools were open
to any clergymen who went there in a spirit of friendliness
and kindness. The dissenting ministers had not gone there
lest it should throw an appearance of sectarianism over the
schools. But the religious instruction of the children was
not neglected; they were taught their different creeds by in-
dividuals capable of teaching them. He was bound to ac-
knowledge they had not been so successful as they could
have wished in getting children to attend the church; but
they had done what they could, and the number was on the
increase, and 40 or 50 did attend the church. After "hold-
ing on" about 20 minutes longer de omnibus rebus, et multis
alas, Mr. Blackburn concluded with meeting Mr. Holmes's
motion with a direct negative.
Mr. Councillor RATIIBONE begged to second what Mr.
Blackburn had said, and in doing so would not trouble the
council with many observations. When these gentlemen had
entered the school, they were asked to put down their names
in the visitors' book, which was the rule before any examina-
tion—they had objected to do so. "Now," said Mr. Rath-
bone, "One word with respect to this truly respectable man,
Mr. James. And let it not be thought that because he has
done myself the honour, and Mr. Blackburn the honour, to
denounce us in his pulpit by name; I do not think—though
he may know his creed very well—that to 'denounce men he
does not know by sight even, is a proper feeling; and he who
thinks that the pulpit is the lit place for such topics, must be
wanting in the spirit of Christinaiity, whatever he knows of
his creed. The man who is so Ignorant of the discipline of
his church, as to say he will not give the communion to any
one who votes for a liberal town-councillor, is not an orna-
ment of any church; nor can he do that in a Christian
spirit. The man who, when the poor population are starving,
will refuse to join a dissenting minister (so far as opinions
go, and whose only difference of opinion was, perhaps, as to
church discipline)—will refuse to co-operate with that minis-
ter in distributing food to the starving and naked; I care not
what be his name, but I know his nature is not Christian;
and I am justified in so speaking of such a man."—They
had wished most particularly the clergymen to attend the
schools, and had begged of them to do so, and take the
religious education of the children, but they had refused.
The church was called, by law, established, and the clergy
were bound to go there; they were paid by the dissenters
and others, and they were bound to give the education re-
quired of them. If lie understood anything about the law,
being paid by the state they were; bound to gig e the instruction
asked, whenever they were required so to do; and they could
legally have made them give it. He would appeal to the
law in that room if such was not the case. He would not say
inure-on the question, for it was now felt to be a-humbug, and
brought forward for political purposes.
Mr. Alderman SniEt, must allude to one point in the
statement of the member for Scotland Ward. It was a brief
remark, and which he thought marked the unfitness of both
himself and the gentleman who accompanied him to be ad-
mitted into the schools. Every member of the council must
be aware that the use of the term " Roman Catholic," must
be offensive to Roman Catholics. The term could only be
made use of as one of offence; and for gentlemen to go into
a school where there were a large number of Roman Catho-
lic children, and a large number of dissenters, and many of
the Established Church, and make use of such an expres-
sion, amongst the scholars was calculated to excite disunion
in the minds of the children. The manner in which the gen-
tleman (Mr. Holmes) had made use of the expression con- ,
vinced hint also that he found fault with his (Mr. Shiel's)
religion. Why did he find faults with it ? He (Mr. Shiel)
could not say. He supposed it was because it taught a sys-
tem of morality diametrically opposite to that which he (Mr.
Holmes) practised. (Laughter.) He had been attached to
it (the Roman Catholic religion) all his life, and should be
attached to it as long as he lived. (Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.).
Mr. Councillor HARVEY said he would refer the council-
lor for Scotland Ward to a book which he thought might be
read with some profit. He (Mr. Harvey) had had it in his
hand that morning. It was a book published by one Isaac
Holmes several years ago, and there was in it some ex-
tremely liberal views respecting religion, and the toleration
shown in America. He hoped the votes given would have
the effect of saving the councillor of Scotland Ward from
himself, and do him much good.
Mr. Coipcillor Isaac Holmes, in reply, certainly felt
paiticularly7 obliged to Mr. Harvey for reminding him of his
liberal opinions. He entertained the same opinions still.
With respect to Mr. Alderman Shiel, who seemed to have
taken g,ieat offence at his expression " Roman Catholic,"
lie had not intended any offence. The Church of Engltnil
called herself Catholic, and he did not know why the Church
of Rome should arrogate to herself the title of Catholic. Mr.
Alderman Shiel asked why he differed from that church ? It
had cost hint no less than 15 or 16 votes of Roman Catho-
lics from stating his objections to that church. (Loud
laughter.) And he would tell them his objections, and what
he had said. He said, there was a certain commandment
that taught—" thou shalt not make to thyself any graven
image—(cries of "Oh")—and further, if you have made it
—" thou shalt not bow down to it. (Loudcries of " Question,
question." If he went to their Roman Catholic places of
worship, he saw many bow down to it. It might be that he
was an apostate to the dissenters.

Mr. Alderman SHIM, (interrupting.►)—l believe this is
very disorderly. I did not ask him any opinion of the creed
I belong to. lie would no more dare to talk in this way if
he could be replied to—

The Mayon (iising)—l have no hesitation in saying that
the statement von have made is entirely disorderly.
Mr. Councillor ISAAC HOLMES bowed to the chairman ;
but certainly very harsh terms had been applied to him by
the gentleman who had spoken.
The MAYOR said it was stated in a very strong resolution
that all religious discussions should be avoided in the council.
It would be extremely inconvenient to introduce theological
discussions into that room, and hoped the members of the
council would abstain from it.

➢lr. Councillor ISAAC HoLsms should certainly not have
made the remark, but he had been termed "an apostate ;"
and what could be more insulting. There were many gen-
tlemen who had been dissenters, who now attended the
church, because she was more Christian and pure in her
doctrines, and were they they therefore to he termed apos-
tate dissenters? When that gentleman (Mr. Blackburn)
had made that remark, he had not been checked. He de-
nied that they had declined to put down their names at the
school. The assertion had been made that a majority of the
Protestant children belonged to the Church of England, he
went to ascertain the fact, and found 63 out of 268 belonged
to that church, and how that was twisted' into a majority he
could not imagine. He had been refused permission to in-
spect the books of the schools for the purposes of enquiry, and
now sought that
,permission.
The motion was put to the vote. There appeared for the
motion—

Councillors—lsaac Holmes, W. Shand, T. Case, J. Bar-
ton, G. Wright, J. Cooper, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence, and
J. N. Wood.

For-the amendment—
Councillors—J. Holmes, W. Thornhill, W. Preston, B.
Frankland, J. Mellor, H. Holmes, T. 1301 ton, E. Filcher,
J. Walinsley, J. Priestley, J. Wool!right, W. Rathbone, W.
Lassell, T. Harvey, V. Higgins. 'l'. Blackburn, 'l'. More.
croft, J. Mason, E. Segar, F. Jordan, J. Platt, W. M. Dun.
can, W. W. Currie, and the Mayor.
Aldermen—R. Sheil, 'l'. Booth, J. Hornby, T. Leathom
G. Holt. C. H. Jones, R. Benn, W. Earle, jun., E. Evans,
'l'. B. Barclay, T. Bailey, 'l'. Holt, W. P. Fretne, and
E. Harvey.
Absent,—Councillors J. Heyworth, D. Hodgson, R.
Houghton, Thos. Sands, R. Bright, J. Bibby, C. Lawrence,
J. Lawrence. T. Brocklebank, J. Carson, R. Gladstone, T.
Coglan, J. S. Leigh, J. Cropper, jun., G Ramsden; Alder.
men R. Roskell, and J. Moon.
__

For the motion 9—against it 38—majority 29.
The Council adjourned, at half-past two, to the first Wed
nesday in next month, as a quarterly meeting.

The Queen of Portugal has given birth to a prince. The
infant will take the title of Duke of Oporto.
A GENTLEMAN.—GentiIity is neither in birth, manner,
nor fashion, but in the mind. A high sense of honour, a de-
termination never to take a mean advantage of another, an
adherence to truth, delicacy, and politeness towards those
with whom you may have dealings, are the essential and dis-
tinguishing characteristics of a gentleman.
The Gloucester and Birmingham Railway, says the Chel-
tenham Chronicle, continues to make the most satisfactory
progress.• The workmen are now engaged in laying down
the permanent way, which is constructed on new and im-
proved principles, from which it is anticipated that the line,
at the same time that it possesses all the firmness and solidity
of the Great Western Railwly will be free from all its de-
fects. The works at both theCheltenham and Tewkesbury
depots have commenced . and some considerable progress
has been made at the latter. The line will be open the length
of Tewkesbury during the ensuing spring, and in the course
of the summer as far as Droitwich ; and it is understood that
the whole will be entirely finished in about two years from
this period, and within the time specified in the contract.

THE POST-OFFICE.

TO THE EDITOR OP THE LIVERPOOL STAND.tRD.

SIR,-1 think it incumbent on individuals, when they suffer
from neglect on the part of public functionaries, to make a
public exposure of it, as well for the sake of the community
at large as for their own—particularly in a department where
strict regularity is indispensable. Having been a sufferer
myself, of late, through neglect on the part of the post-office
in the conveyance of letters, and having also heard of re-
peated complaints upon the subject, I am induced to begfor
a corner in your paper. It is not necessary, in order toim-
plicate the system, to name the office where the delay arose:
it would, indeed, be a hopeless task if it were so; but per-
haps the instance should be mentioned. The letter in
_ques-
tion was addressed to a person within three miles of War-
rington, and posted on a Monday evening; and it did not
reach him until the Wednesday evening following, even with
the advantage of a railroad conveyance almost the whole
way : there is a daily twopenny post from Warrington jo the
spot alluded to. The consequence was, besides the inconve-
nience, a pecuniary loss to myself, which, though small,
might have been serious. I need not ask where that loss
ought in justice to have been felt.
I trust, Sir, that you will deem this statement of sufficient
importance to occupy a place in your columns, and you will
oblige Yours faithfully,
Liverpool, Nov. 20th, 1838. H. W.

LIVERPOOL MECHANICS' INSTITUTION.

LECTURES ON ASTRONOMY.

On Saturday evening Mr. John Wallis delivered bis last
lecture upon this sublime science.
The spots upon the sun's disc prove to us that the sun is a
globular body, and point out to us the direction and time of
its rotation. It revolves upon its axis once in 25% days.
The spots upon the sun are of a transient nature, and seem
to be occasioned by openings in the nebulous matter by which
the sun is surrounded. No part of his disc is of equal lustre,
and sometimes we discern long streaks of light more intense
than the average surface. The surface of the sun thus ap-
pears to be in a course of chemical action. These ridges of
strong light have been termed facula3 by Herschell; but,
whenever we see them, we shall soon see a darkness in their
place. As there are incessant changes going on upon the
surface of the sun, it is probable that when this species of de-
composition, whatever it may be, arrives at the proper pitch,
there is a chasm formed in the matter, and that we then look
upon the dark solid material of the sun. These spots, how-
ever, though Peifectly black in their central parts, have
always a penumbral edge. We know of no light so intense
as the light of the sun. The oxyhydrogen light, and all
others, appear quite inconsiderable in luminosity when com-
pared with the sun. The light transmitted from the sun may
or may not be mixed invariably with heat. The rays
of the sun, we do not find, with the aid of a most deli Cate
thermometer, to produce any effect upon the earth's tempera-
ture. It is possible that light and heat, whatever their cause,
may be merely light and heat on the surface of our planet,
and that the same causes may produce other changes in the
media through which they are passing: Therefore, astrono-
my, whilst it gives us the most conclusive knowledge, leads
us into regions of speculation as interminable as the matter
into which we look. There are millions of orbs visible to
our telescopes, and we cannot imagine that they are of less
importance and magnitude than our own sun, else they would
not be visible. But there are many stars immensely larger
than the sun. We cannot magnify stars, and that is-a strik-
ing point. We can magnify Jupiter and Vemis until they
are many times larger than the sun • but we cannot enlarge
a fixed star by the most powerful telescope. There are many
analogies between the sun and the stellar bodies. There are
many appearances about stars which would lead us tobelieve
that they rotate upon their axis; thus many of them alter
periodically in their lustre, sometimes shining with greater
or less brilliancy: and it is supposed that this is owing to the
face which is presented to us. Two or three fixed stars hais
been observed to make their appearance in the Ifeavens.
One of these was noticed by Kepler to increase in magnitude
until it shone in the day time more powerfully than Jupiter.
Mr. John Wallis then reviewed the different astronomical
theories in opposition to the new astronomical theory, and
ably refuted them all, illustrating his arguments by Means of
numerous diagrams. In conclusion, he said, I have now, to
the best of my ability, brought before you such portions of
our beautiful science as I deemed capable of being rendered
clear to you. Of course I can have brought before yon no
'thing new, and it has only been your continued attentiOn,
which has led me to use my best efforts to its illustration.
We are only on the threshold of discovery. I leave taken"
you in a circle whose diameter is four hundred' millions Of'
miles, and I have shown you, by the new parallax of stars,
that this is but a stripe of insignificant magnitude compared
with space. We cannot doubt that all the planets of the
solar system are peopled; think then how vast must be the
number of those intelligent beings who inhabit the iiaterininX-
ble universe. It has appeared to some that my Sande of
treating the subject, and considering the universe is 'a vast
machine, is somewhat atheistical. But I think the reverse,
as the machines which man has been able to pioduce Kate
led to these rapid discoveries which are now making in sci-
ence. While 1 say, therefore, that astronomy. is perhaps
more intelleytual than any other science, as it is taught by
reasoning, and so becomes an excellent mode of leading the
mind to a series of facts productive of beneficial results, I do
not arrogate to my science anything snore than is juft. I
am aware that a grain of sand, when investigated thoroughly,.
leads to a train of thought in which we are lost in wonder and
amazement ; but whether we look at nature in its two ex-
tremes, whether with a microscope we view the smallest ob-
jects in creation, or with a telescope, the vast System of
beauty and truth which is exposed around to our gaze, we
are as much bewildered and confounded at the minuteness of
the one as we shrink into comparative nothingness at the
comprehensive view which is opposed to us in the other. But
we arrive at this conclusion, that if no clock which we know
of can keep time with the arrangementsof the universe—and
that any mechanic who should construct such a clock would
be worthy of our highest admiration—that the Almighty;whb
has launched these orbs into these realms of space, the limits
of which we can never ascertain, has manifested to us, in the
perfection and the gniind scale of his work, his power and
beneficence. It is, therefore, not the man who carefully
exercises his reason—it is not the philosopher who Comes to
the conclusion that there is no God—it is, to use the expres-
sion of a book the truth of which is our mainstay, " It is the
fool who says there is no God." An atheist is a man who
does not reason from causes. Now this is the structure of the
human mind, that it is impossible to impress upon a child
that his very toy constructed itself accidentally. Surely-
then a science which has been pursued for thonsands of
years, and in which the most stupendous discoveries have
lately been made, so as to prove that the heavenly system is
placed under the dominion of certain laws, by which its har-
monies are brought about in the desirable manner in which
it was the will of the Omnipotent Creator it should be, must
possess attractions of no ordinary nature. We are, thei‘
fore, led on to the height and depth of astronomy, which-
perfectly overwhelm us, but they never ought to confound us:
We, therefore, come to this conclusion, that although We ark'
trace mechanical dependence amongst matter, we are Mi.:
bled, by the modus operandi of our effects, to prove, logicallY,
that we can trace these phenomena to mechanical princiPle's,
there must be a last step, from which we must pass to the
Creator of the World. It is a fair conclusion, that this last
almighty cause of all causes, is God, a being whose exist-
ence—the greatest of all mysteries—is itself, and it alone, the
solution of all others. I cannot leave this theatre without
acknowledging the great encouragement, and more than
flattering attention, which I have received from my nu.'
merous audience since the commencement of these lectures.
Mr. B. R. Haydon delivers his second lecture to-morrow
evening. A report of the first, which was attended by a
crowded audience, will appear in our next.