The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-01-12 00:00:00

Thig had all along been told out of doors. Although he
might not have precise information with regard to their
movements, yet he had also learned that owing to a commu-
nication from a noble lord, and also owing to differences
among themselves, (cries of " No, no !") they had expected
they should have brought before the council a measure of a
more decided and a bolder character, and that they looked
to another gentleman in the council to do it. But that
gentleman had had more moderation, more good sense,
and had the public weal more at. heart, than to bring
forward the niotl'on. The present was the best they
could procure, after all ; but the intention of it was
not the less noxious. Their hopes were altogether rested
upon the report of a committee—that that committee would
pull the bill to pieces, that they would impose restrictions
here and lay injunctions there, and that they would so alter it
as to compel the Dock Committee to renounce,it altogether.
That was the object. He had reason to know from indivi-
dual reports, that some of the warehouse owners would hear
of nothing else but the protection of the warehouses under
any circumstances whatever—(no, no)—but there were
others who wished to lay hold of the dock quays themselves,
and to convert to their own private advantage the warehouses
upon them. Everybody recollected that there had been in
the latter part of the year, a new election of members of the
Dock Committee. In London and elsewhere it had been
held out that the ratepayers were averse to the erection of
warehouses ; but what was the result of th
that gentlemen were nom
the warehouse me&
triumphant maiorit

lection

the measure to deal with now
payers ; and with regard to the ..labiiants, be would an-
swer for it that ninety out of every hundred were for, it-
least out of all who understood the question, and the o
only wanted to be informed about it.. It was upon the rate-
payers that the greatest stress had been laid in London, but
the world had been undeceived on that point ; and who, he
asked, had they to deal with now ? A remnant of the ware-
house owners and warehouse keepers and no others. Would
they be botind by the report of the committee? No, not if it
were against them. They hoped the bill would be over-
thrown by the council; if it were not they would hear
the like language to that which they had heard before
in that council and out of doors—" I will let nobody cut my
throat, and I will subscribe my mite to overthrow this bill. '
The other day a gentleman, one of the most active, noisy,
and influential upon the subject, mentioned to him openly
and candidly—" the fact is, I cannot afford to let the public
have dock warehouses, so there is the principle we are con-
tending for—it is that of self interest." Now, with regard
to the claim that self-interest had to put out the commercial
prospects of Liverpool, he (Mr. Evans) had never heard a
case made out. It would never answer with any one. It
would not with Sir Robert Peel., He was told that the hope
of the warehouse owners was now upon Lord' Lyndhurst, who
had honoured one or two of them before now with a
breakfast, and that 'therefore they hoped to try ano-
ther experiment with his lordship. He (Mr. Evans) had
not the slightest apprehension about Lord Lyndhurst upon
a point of this sort. But if the warehouse owners had
any case let it be made out, and he had not the slightest
objection to go into it. He should be glad to know what
they wanted. Himself and 'other gentlemen in the Dock
Committee, in their individual capacity, had made many at-
tempts to suggest what they should propose—and what they
wanted as the price for which they would withdraw their oppo-
stion. He had never met anything from them but evasion ;
not one of them had answered him in any other way than

ho had the promoters of
tainly not

ith the rate

exactly as he had described, continually reverting to their
own interest as the only reason for their opposition.
what was the proposed committee to do that the Dock Con
mittee could not do ? Had the present suggestion been mad,
there? Had any overtures been made to the Dock Con►-
mittee either in their general or sub-committee charities?

Nothiniofihesoit7 Was not the Dock Committee likely to
be more impartial and fair upon this subject than the coun-
cillors ? Were they not appointed for the purpose ? They
. .

Committee

talked as if there was an issue between the Do
and the warehouse owners—as if the Dock Committee were
interested in it—as it was a dispute between one set of railway
proprietors and another. The Dock Committee were open to
suggestions and overtures ; and he thought they were a great
deal better qualified to entertain them under all the circum-
stances, having more knowledge of the subject than could be
expected elsewhere, than any committee that could be formed
out of the council. He conceived that the question would
not have been entertained for one moment, if it were not for
the sympathy which wealthy men had for each other. When
he heard them saying that there were warehouses sufficient
in Liverpool without erecting more, he replied that there were
roads enough to London before the Grand Junction Railway
was made. If warehouses upon the dock quays happened to
pinch upon the interests of warehouse owners, ,as the railway
had upon the existing turnpike trusts, that was no reason for
thro wing away improvements. Warehouse owners were liable,
like other people, to the vicissitudes of human life, of wordly
affairs, and to changes or value of all kinds of property
arising from improvements. Mr. Evans then referred to the
timber trade as having been loud in opposition to the mea-
sure, contending that there was no ground for their proceed-
ings, inasmuch as they had greater accommodation than any
other trade, and more than was given them in most parts in
the empire. They were enabled to discharge their vessels
quicker here than anywhere upon the face of the globe ; and
be believed, if the subject were investigated, it would be
found that they were lower rated, in proportion to the quay
and water space they occupied, than any other trade. What
they had been holding out, and which, as usual, had been
grabbled at by the interested party, was that it would not be
fair to involve the timber trade, who slid not want warehouses,
in the risk of building them, as they might end in raising the
dock rates upon them. Now what had been their conduct ?

They willingly gave their consent to make an open' dock,
which would require double dock rates to make it answer
if it were made without warehouses. See the incons.

stency

of that. Mr. Evans then went on to contend that the ware.-
houses would pay, that so far from adding insecurity to the
docks, they would afford security, and that they would be
the means of bringing an increased income, which would
enable the dock committee at a future period to reduce the
rates. He then urged that as the bill was now in course, any
alterations could best be made before the parliamentary com-
mittee, and that indeed would be the easiest plan of effecting
them, as it would prevent the necessity of a discussion, which
could only tend to embarrass the council. He next entered
upon the question whether the proposed warehouses would
not be converted into a monopoly, and be the instrument
of great political influence, both of which positions he denied ;
and the idea of building the warehouses, and letting them off,
he ridiculed as lortposterObs. Hetoncluded by referring to
a speech of Mr. G. H. Lawrerice, at the 'West Derby ward
dinner, and on that speech appealing to Mr. Lawrence to
support his views.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE said he was not aware that the
opinions he then expressed would enable him.
Mr. EVANS replied, there was " a chiel amang them
taking notes, and 'faith he'd prent 'em." Before he sat
down he wished to make another remark. The public had
long been amused with talk about the reduction of the dock
rates. When we listened to that kind of talk we were apt
to forget that improvements such as the building of sheds
and the deepening of docks were better than reduced rates,
inasmuch as they facilitated the entrance, the discharge, and
the departure of ships. There was in the expenditure of the
income upon improvements a virtual reduction of rates.
The MAYoR here announced that the Town Clerk was
now prepared to state the legal bearing of the motion.
Several members said it was not necessary; and therefore
the Town Clerk resumed his seat.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE said that Mr. Evans had com-
menced by deprecating any further discussion of the subject,
yet he had himself gone step by step till there was scarcely
any portion of the question upon which he had not touched.
Mr. EVANS observed that he had done so because he could
not see what case had been made out for the motion.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE was glad that the worthy alder-
man had adopted the course which he had. The council
most probably recollected the way in which the Dock Com-
mittee had forced this subject before them in October last,
fearful, no doubt, of the election which was about to ensue.
There was then an express understanding that the council
should have the power of discussing it again about this
period. He should enter upon the subject generally, as it
was one in which he was much interested, as well as a mem.
ber of the council, as a merchant, and as one of those who
possessed the unhappy property now to be attached by the
Dock Committee. He looked forward to the appointment of
this committee, in the hope that its efforts might have a
good effect, in making such suggestions as would render the
bill not perhaps palatable to all parties, but such as the town
generally might approve. He had never risen in his place in
that room without expressing his anxious wish that this
question should be fairly and amicably settled in Liverpool ;
and he hoped that upon a careful and dispassionate
view of the whole case, that might be done through
the means of this committee. When it was first brought
before the Council, he was one of those who acqui-
esced with, and voted for, the recommendation of the
Finance Committee, that bonded sheds should be erected, in
place of the warehouses required by the Dock Committee.
At that time he thought the Dock Committee would have
acted wisely if they had acceded to the proposal then made,
because, in the end, they might have gained every thing they
required, the Finance Committee having recommended that
the foundations of the sheds should be of that strength and
solidity that, if required, warehouses might hereafter be rear-
ed upon them. The Dock Committee refused to accept this
recommendation, and the bill was abandoned. Next year
the same bill 'was presented to the Council, and then the
party to which he belonged changed their policy, and instead
of adhering to the former proposal of bonded sheds, they
supported the scheme of leasing the land to joint stock com-
panies. He was a supporter of that ; hut he now thought it
would be wrung to separate the warehouses from the dock
management, and that either would be equally prejudicial to
private interests. He supported that scheme, he said, and
he regretted it, for it was to that that all the present difficul-
ties were attributable. They were beaten on this point, and
the bill went before parliament. Then came on a struggle
in parliament, where so much money had been spent. From
the committee of the house neither party returned victorious.

A great mass of evidence was taken, and he believed the opi-
nion of the committee was in favour of building warehouses
upon certain conditions, and opposed to separate manage-
ment • but the bill did not pass in consequence of the late-
ness of the session, though he believed, if there had been
time, it would not havep passed without some assurance or
guarantee that parties, who were only indirectly interested
in the success of the scheme, should not be damaged by its
failure. He alluded to the timber trade. Then came on the
election of members of the Dock Committee by the rate-
payers. On that occasion the merchants, the parties most
competent to form an opinion on the subject, declared their
willingness to accede to the Corporation scheme. They were
in favour of building warehouses, preferring them to bonded
sheds ; they were opposed to leasing the land to joint stock
companies, and were willing to run the risk of building the
warehouses upon the security of their own dock rates. That
he considered was the decision of the rate-payers, by the
election of Mr. Horsfall and the defeat of Mr. Potter. It
was a result which be did not expect ; but he felt it his duty,
as a councillor, to use the very best means in his power for
carrying the resolutions of the Council into effect, at the
least possible expense and detriment to the warehouse inte-
rest. To this end he had laboured, and though he had been
supported by one whose fairntss and disinterestedness could
not be called in question, he was bound to say that, like
many other mediators, he had met with few friends, and
many opponents. He was not, however, discouraged on that
account, nor should he be deterred from expressing what he
felt upon this occasion. He declared that he adhered strictly
to what he 'conceived to be the watchword of those with
whom he acted on this occasion, when he said that the public
funds ought not upon slight grounds to be brought into com-
petition with private interests. But he made this distinction.
He thought he had a right to draw a line between the past
aid the future, and say that it would be unjust or inexpe-
dient to raise warehouses within the margin of Prince's
Dock, in direct competition with the immense mass of
property erected in the vicinity, which was more than
amply sufficient for the accommodation of that dock.
He contended that they, the dock trustees, had a right,
if they choose. to determine that in any future dock they
might have occasion to build, they should be enabled to
secure to themselves the adoption of such advantages and
Such improvements as they might see in Londqn or else-
where. In these times, when rival docks were springing up,
tradeit behoved them 'to offer every inducement to the growing
paniea Were port. The Harrington and Herculaneum com-
least they to have warehouses upon their dock quays, or at
estate e)ught for them ; and it was hard that this dock
and thebelonging
r rather to the empire than to individuals, should
exist. (Hear.) His advantages if they could be shown to
that they should is proposal to the council, then, was this ;
build warehouses upon the quay of Salt-
house Dock
quay would hold, alone—thatand
they should build as many as the
use of the dock. Hecitisdmany as would be sufficient for the
not oppose the building of transit
sheds, which many People thought a good thing, upon the