The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

TII} LIVERPOOL STANI)ARD.

THE DISCUSSION.-SECOND EVENING.

Yesterday evening this Discussion was resumed in the
Concert Hall, Lord I\relson-street. From an early hour
in the evening, the house was densely filled by a most
respectable audience, all of whom seemed by their anxiety
to take a lively interest in the issue of the proceedings.
The platform was crowded by clergymen and gentlemen
of various creeds. Mr. Miall was the first to appear upon
the platform, and on entering the room he was warmly
received by his friends. He wasfollowed almost immediately
by the Rev. Mr. Baylee, who was received by the meeting
with the most enthusiastic cheers. When silence was restored
Mr. ROBERTSON, as chairman for Mr. Miall, rose and
stated that they had met together by adjournment that
evening to resume the discussion of the question which
had occupied their attention on Friday evening last. It
would be unnecessary for him to say anything in addition
to what he then said, more than to bring before them in
substance the arrangements of the committee for the re-
gulation of the meeting, which were the same as those
which had been announced on the last night of the dis-
cussion. He could not, however, resume his seat with-
out returning his own thanks, and those of his fellow
chairman for the very gratifying and harmonious spirit in
which the audience had met those arrangements, as their
meeting • had been characterised by good order and the
utmost regularity. The committee expressed their strong-
est desire that the same arrangements would be carried
out on the present evening, and that the meet-
ing- would, as was their bounden duty, listen to the truth
patiently and dispassionately (cheers).
The Rev. Mr. Pommel( then came forward, and on
presenting himself, was most cordially received. He said
that if he said in all sincerity on last Friday evening that
he accepted with reluctance the office which he then held,
he was bound to say that he resumed his duties in that
office to-night under feelings of strong encouragement.
(Cheers.) It was with the utmost pleasure that he was
joined in the office of chairman with a gentleman so
courteous and honourable as his friend Mr. Robertson.
(Cheers.) He was also most gratefully surprised with
the general tone and spirit which had, upon the previous
evening, characterised their proceedings. He said this
with reference to both the speakers. It would not,
however, be for him to say anything of his own
friend Mr. Baylee,(cheers) ;—but he would say of
his opponent, Mr. Miall, that he had set an example to
all who agreed with him in opinion, which was most
creditable to himself, and worthy of being imitated
by all. To the general tone and temper of the meeting
lie had also to bear his willing testimony. True,
some interruptions occurred during their last meeting;
but he was quite sure that such interruptions had not
originated with any Churchman. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.) If he was allowed to make an observation with
regard to the question which was to come 'before thorn,
he would remind them that the question was not the claim
of the Church of England on the one hand and Dissent
on the other to be supported, that was to be discussed this
evening. It had been agreed on both sides that Christian
ministers were to be sapported by some means; and then the
question arose as to whether the state was to be their pay- I
tnaster. The voluntary principle if adopted would, no
doubt, affect the Church of England in these kingdoms ;
would also affect the Church of Scotland on the other side '
of the Tweed, and the Church of Rome in all Roman Ca-
tholic countries alike; and if it were the will of God to
raise another Oliver Cromwell in England, it was a prin-
ciple that might soon affect even the most strenuous of
the non-conformists themselves. (Cheers,) He hoped
they would not allow themselves to be hurried into the
expression of any bad feeling on account of anything that
might fall from the respective advocates on that occasion.
He hoped that good would follow from this associa-
tion, and that they would part from each other
like those smoothe stones which were sometimes thrown
up by the sea on the beach ; and that they would
part from each other, not roughened in temper, but
smoothed in heart and mind by their collision with each
other. (Cheers.) The Rev. Chairman then retired, when
Mr. Robertson again rose, and introduced to the meeting
Mr. MIALL, who was warmly received by his own par-
tizans. . He commenced his address by recapitulating his
impressions of the several arguments that were employed
on the previous evening, and, having done so, he pro-
ceeded to say that he would resume his argument by lay-
ing before them as succinctly as possible, the line.of argu-
ment which he intended to follow that evening. He was
fully aware he might be laying himself open to a kind of
taunt when he said that it was not necessary that they
should be differing on specific passages of Scripture, when
they had not as yet agreed as to the specific kind of inter-
pretation that they would put upon each of those passages.
(Hear, hear, hear.) He deemed it better, on all accounts,
that they should, first of all, ascertain in what respect the
Old Testament and the New were identical, and how far
the Old Testament authority could be brought forward
for the maintenance of Christian truth in these and in
future days. (Lon(' cheers.) If he (Mr. Miall) fell
short in his advocacy of the question before them,
the general body of the Dissenters should not be taxed
with his falling off.; for he spoke only his own opinions
and sentiments. He would not tax the Church of Eng-
land with anything that might fall from his opponent.;
and, therefore, he hoped that any failing on his part would
be attributed rather to a want of merit on his own part
than to a want of proof to sustain theirnpinions by those
with whom he happened to be identified. He would now
proceed to his argument, and would commence by stating
that he believed the Old and the New Testament to be
identical in many things. They 'were the same in
every part. There were, in fact, nothing more than
different ministrations of the same spirit:; that these
two Testaments were but a different embodiment of one
light, just as the grub and the butterfly were identical—
as they embodied the same essentials of life, although
their organisations were entirely different and distinct.
So lie believed-that the old dispensation of Moses and'
the new Christian dispensation of the Redeemer were
essentially the same. But beyond that, he would con-
tend 'that the Old Testament and the new were
not identical as to the terms in which each presents
the divine truths to the mind of man. (Loud cheers.)
The one held up the truth of religion in its rituals, its
ceremonies, its types, and its scenic representations ;
whilst the other held up that faith--the faith of the
Redeemer—in all historical facts, and the most extraor-
dinary and truthful deductions which were to be drawn
from those unmistakeable facts, and sublime truths,
which were not typical, but real. (Hear, hear.) He did
nest admit that the Old Testament furnished any direct
authority as to the mode in which the Gospel of Christ
should be supported by its disciples. After all, the ques-
tion would arise whether the revealed Mind of God, in so
far as they had the power of judging, was set against the
compulsory principle of supporting his Church. This he
would endeavour to prove. He wished to impress upon
their minds that it seemed to him that the compulsory
system was an essential part of that dispensation with
which it was connected, and with which it was found to be
associated. The religion of the Jews was entirely pros-
pective—all its rites were suggestive of something to come.
It looked forward to the day when the Christian dispensa-
tion of the Redeemer should be established in the world.
—Under that dispensation there was no individual religious
freedom. All the power of the magistrate of the state
was exercised to compel the people to adopt an unanimous
system of religious faith. He knew that this point in the
old dispensation, the power of the civil magistrate, who '
was directly appointed by God himself,
..could secure.
This he could secure so far as his action was permitted to ,
intervene between God and the worshipper. This unani-
mity the magistrate was commanded to secure ; and
here, if lie (Mr. Miall) mistook not, lay the whole secret
of the question at issue. God, in his infinite mercy,
they were aware, limited the action of the magisterial
power to .its proper sphere. They knew that they were
enjoined.that not one pin of the tabernacle should be re-
moved—that not a single emblem of the typical ceremo-
nials of the tabernacle should be altered—that all should,
be as he showed it to Moses on the Mount ; and any de-
viation from it the magistrate had the power to punish.
From ehis ,they would perceive that so far, the action
and the power of magistrates went to secure actual and
universal conformity in the observance of the Jewish dis-
pensation—the very thing which his reverend friend de-
nied in that dispensation ; but after all lie thought that
compulsorynloss tf.rroeilnedr a:
x."1,1.'t,0,,. dieu principle rather glory
st:atgh,.tatl,iogrroi
guided
,i,:htniiiitarst}:lll, toleranceidb7easavgbil
)it,)siou,t magistrates
thattdeal
etsbirt,:ayfi
tni..
dotliedere,
nor could there be an (leibee( )11."
very properly
those days Under
adl,l,r)
that contended
s).st
system
m that
the
(old law (cheers).
teisiatatbelissthalbnieisiliteniiirsa:idt.test glrt•r).l If they'n'ere
.Itosnic
n
;I:;dl'atria:
ioe nhsaaltrei o na
did go under the persecuting rule of WEitgate
(cheers). If gentlemen would go so far, they ought not •
to shrink from going the whole length to which their
arguments would lead them. He contended that the
priesthood under the old law were supported by the
free-will offerings of the people, and therefore that
support could not be regarded as being compulsory.
Those offerings were the first fruits of the earth, and the
offerings of goodwill and lose. tin. the Lord, %%thigh were
shared ketween the altar.and the priest. lie maintained
that it could not be shown, throughout the whole of the
gospel, that the magistrates were ever allowed 'by the
.Jewish law, civil or Levitical, to enforce the maintenance
of the Jewish church from the recusant, people of the age.;
for there were in those days recusants as well as in the
present. There were men who refused to pay tithes, .and
who consequently, according to the law, robbed God of
that which was due to his church. But, he would ask,
what was the punishment inflicted in those days ou those
who did ? They knew what it would be under the present
dispensation. (Hear. hear, and,elieers.) They knew that
iu England and Scotland if a man refused to pay his tithe;
the authority of the soldier or sthe policeman would be
brought into operation to bring the exaction from him;
and that the recusant's goods anda•hattels would be Bold
under the penal enactments, which ,the State had created
for the support of the Church. et them examine the
Bible, -and inform themselves how God acted under cir-
cumstances almost similar. They knew that when the
Temple was built, the Lord commanded the people to go
up to the mountain, and bring wood and build the house ;
and some of thok who disobeyed or, xather neglected
this command, as given through the Prophet Haggai, were
thus rebuked;--'• Ye looted for much, (here was 'the
punishment) so itcame to little ; and when you brought it
t upon
home I did blow upon it (not the magistrate.) Why ? saith tit e
Lord of Hosts. Because of my house which is waste, and
ye run every man into his own house. Therefore the
heaven over you is stayed from dew, and tho, earth is
u
ugi/lot n
tht
wuhdi
stayed from her fruit. Amid
mipcaonliedthefoorila,
and d
a
the land, and. upon the mountains,- and upon the corn,
ch7thne4igieronuenwd
wine,
and
brimigeth forth, and upon men, And
upon .coUle, and upon the labour of all th 3 hands." That
was, as his friend was desirous of having the chapter and
verse; taken from the Ist, chapter, 9tb, 10th, and 11th
verses. (hut, hear, and laughter.) In the 3rd of
3faiochi, verses the Bth and 9th, they hid another instance
of the nature of time punishment which the J,ArAI inflicted
for au iufriugement a his laws iu this respect ; toad be-

sides, thesithings proved most c'early that the power of
pusissinent was nor in the hands of the civil magistrate;
but in the Lord himself. The passage was : Will a
man rob God ? Yet ye have robbed me. But say ye
wherein have we robbed thee ? In tithes and offerings.
Ye are cursed with a curse : for ye have robbed me even
this whole nation." To every thoughtful reader of the
word of God, it would occur how they were to account
for this divine threatening and judgment against those
who refused to bring their offerings into the temple of the
Lord, if there had been any intelligent magistracy in
whose hands these things had been entrusted. They
knew that at present the power of the law was all
sufficient to overtake any offender against the church
endowment act. At the present time they needed
no threatening from Heaven. They needed no curses
from the mouth of the Most High to be pronounced
against them ; for they were sufficiently punished for
their recusance, although now they were not robbing
God, but only infringing on the temporal laws of the
state. That, however, they would not be allowed to do
with impunity ; for the state would force their exactions
from them, (Hear, hear.) The whole tendency of this
agreement went to prove these two points :—First, That
the union of church and state in Judea, under the old
dispensation, was exhibited in that very aspect that
good, holy, pious, and religious churchmen most re-
pudiate, as being intolerant, and not under that
aspect to which they would . look up as a model
for the maintenance of Christ's gospel on earth ;
and secondly, that the civil power never was employed to
make the maintenance of the Church of Judea compul-
sory on the people. He would now proceed to points of a
kind, and in doing so he contended that all
more positive. •
expense attending the divine worship of God under the
Jewish dispensation was maintained entirely by the volun-
tary principle. They had some of the most extraordinary
exhibitions of the effects of the voluntary principle under
the Old Testament dispensation. In the 25th Exodus Ist
and 2nd verse, they found it stated that " the Lord spake
unto Moses, saying, speak unto the children of Israel,
that they bring me an offering, and every man that giveth
it willingly with his heart, ye shall take my offering."
And in the 36th chapter of the same in the 2d and 3d vs.
they found it related that Moses called Bezaleel, and
Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whose heart the
Lord had put his wisdom, even every one whose heart
stirred him up to come unto the work to do it. And they
received of Moses all the offering which the children of
Israel had brought for the work of the service of the
Sanctuary, and to make it withal, and they brought yet
unto him free offerings every, morning. (Cheers.) And
again in the building of the Temple they had another
.striking instance of the effects of the voluntary princi-
ple. In the 29th chapter of the First Book .of Chroni-
cles, they_ had an . example of David in this matter.
It was stated there :—" Now I have prepared with
all my might for the house of my God the gold
I for things to be made of gold, and the silver for
things of silver, and the brass for things of brass,
the iron for . things •of iron. and wood • for things of
wood ; onyx, stones, and stones to be set, glistening
'stones and of divers colours, and all manner of
.precious
stones and marble stones in abundance. Moreover, because
have set my•affection to the.house of my God, I have Of
mine own proper good of gold and silver, which I have given
to the house of my God, over and above all I have prepared
for the holy house." And in the reign of King Josiah, as
related in the 24th chapter of the 2d Book of Chronicles,
they had another striking illustration of the power, the
magnitude, and the efficiency of the voluntary principle
when fairly applied to the support of the church
of God. He had, he conceived, offered them strong
evidence to show that the power of the magistrates
was employed under the Mosaic dispensation, in order
to enforce conformity in the mode in which the people
should worship God. That their power was not exercised
for the support or maintenance of the priesthood. And
he conceived that all the passages of the sacred writ-
ings, which had any reference to the matter at issue,
strongly pointed out to them that the voluntary prin-
ciple was the principle then acted upon by the people.
(Hear, hear.) They knew that recusance in the case of
the nonpayment of tithes was not looked after by
the civil power ; and they also knew full well that
the church, under the old dispenSation, was not as-
sisted by the state in order to enforce her sustenance
off the people. And they were also• aware, it, was
clear, that the magisterial power of . the state was then
only exercised.for the purpose of enforcing conformity in
matters of faith. (Cheers.) After some few other obser-
vations in support of the above arguments, Mr. Miall re-
sumed his seat amid much applause.
The Rev. J. BAYLEE then rose, and was received with
loud cheers. He said that he would begin his share of
the proceedings of the evening by observing that he
thought it the primary duty of the pleaders to keep to the
subject before the meeting; and, therefore, when a chal-
lenge was thrown down to him at the last meeting, he
did not think it right then to take it up ;—(applause)—
but although that meeting was assembled for one purpose,
there was no reason why, at a fitting opportunity, he
should not discuss the other queStion.—(Hear, hear.)—
The Anti-State Church Association had sent down a
deputation to Liierpool, and from that deputation the
challenge of the present discussion had emanated. He
had been told by the respected gentleman who was chair-
man for Mr. Miall, that it was the intention of the Asso-
ciation to send deputations to all 'parts of the country; ,
and therefore he thought it right to send to London, for '
he liked to argue from the centre, this challenge, expres-
sive of his willingness to meet any gentleman whom they
might appoint iu that city.—(Loud cheers.)—The Rev.
gentleman then read the following paper, which was most
vociferously cheered at the end of each proposition. At
its conclusion, he handed the paper to Mr. Miall, amid
continued cheers
"The Anti-State Church Association having sent a
deputation to Liverpool to assail one of the leading prin-
ciples of the Church of England, the Rev. Joseph Baylee
hereby declares his readiness to meet, at any convenient
time and place in London, any person or persons deputed
by the said association to discuss the following questions :
1. Are English Dissenters justified by the Word of God
in their separation from the Church of England ?
(Loud cheers.)
" 2: Can any body of English Dissenters prove that their
constitution, government, and discipline is in accordance
with the Word of God ? (Loud applause.)
"3. Is the endowment of the church by the state sanc-
tioned by the Word of God ?
" Has the Church of England a scriptural claim to such
endowment? (Loud applause.)
Birkenhead, March 1, 1847. JOSEPH BAYLEE."
The rev. gentleman proceeded. He had stated on the
last evening what he painfully knew. (Confusion, and
cries of " turn him out.") He was aware that he should
be obliged to state things not congenial to the feelings of
his fellow Christian Dissenters. • (Hear.) But ha was
glad upon that occasion to state, because a charge ;had I
been made against him that he excluded Dissenters from
Heaven, that he believed that the salvation of every man
depended alone upon his holding the faith of Christ. He
therefore utterly repudiated such a sentiment, as having a
tendency towards Tractarian or Romish notions. (Tre-
mendous cheers.) The question, however, that evening,
was not whether Dissenters were Christians, or whether
the Church of England was right, but whether the word
of God supported endowments to the Christian religion.
—(Applause.)—On Friday he maintained that Dissenters
did not study the Old Testament Scriptures. lie reiter-
ated the sentiment that evening, and the truth of it was
painfully manifest in what had fallen from his opponent.
—(Hear and cheers.)—llis opponent had indeed quoted
many passages of Scripture from the Old Testament ;
but what did they refer to ? Why, that it was
right and proper to support religion by voluntary
contributions ? (Hear, hear, amid cheers.) Who denied it ?
He did not dispute that point ; but; on the contrary,
asserted that it was the duty of every man to contribute
of his substance towards the spread of religion, because
all he had belonged to God. (Loud applause.) What
had fallen from Mr. Miall might., therefore, appear all
very plausible ; but he should recollect the words of the
wise man—" He that is first in his own cause seemeth
right, but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him."
(Loud cheers.) Why was it when he (Mr. Baylee) made
the distinction, last Friday evening, between the Temple
and the Synagogue service, that no reference whatever
had been made to the latter that evening ? (Applause.)
Why was it, when they were called Judnizing Christians,
that no reference had been made to his argument, that
sAt loit(e7t;sieS, t
?at thee
(ContinuedCtl
iulprci
eh y
gasi tcebriue
cheers.) But
before
luitnta the time of
t
7wcasontsraibidu,tiofnors:
t
t fipr this
ssTiuyile,pm atprttiv,,,vt.at
gsioe,iNkn.stittr,lha:a.,tm,tshesasrp,dy:ire,p:as,dg:ose:.idutde::vii
,;.ae,,ytts;,—
,h7ei:
teuj'a.k.t}tiaiyh, t:ulYisestaitsleSlly:rnagogue
(Immense cheers.) Aly dissenting fellow Christians, said
have succeeded in drawing your attention back to the
study of the 01t1Testantent, Imn thankful—l tun thank-
ful.•. I can coincide with, I hope I Irtay say, my brother
Christian, that the Old Testament sloes contain prin-
ciples binding on all our consciences. (Loud cheers.)
The Rev. Gentleman proceeded. Ile stated on the last
occasion, that he had' good reason for believing that
;the Old Testament was not studied by Dissenters;
but ietad more reason for believing it then, looking
to the application which his oPponeOt had made of the
quotations he had given .from the prophets. Why, all
he had read about the disapprobation of God against time
people for not contributing to the temple seta ice, referred
to a time when the civil magistrate had not the power to
enforce payment of tithes, and'sheretOre the whole of the
quotation from Haggai and Malachi were totally irrele-
vant-to the question. (Cheers.) There was reiteration
of what he thought he had answered on the fornmer occa-
sion ; but it seemed his answer had not been thought
worthy of attention by his opponent. ((;Neely,) He
should be glwl to have an answer to his repeated demand on
Miall, to produce to him one single passage from the
Bible to prove that the synagogue system bad passed away.
Instead of that, ,he had fallen into the Romish system of
tacking
otnh.e
Ttemplehere us-earlie as a
s vice as theii-typeopfrethsrtt c
enilpilse-
lservice.- but that was in heaven, not on earth, (Cheers.)
It lied been said by his opponent that the temple service
was identical with the present, after the manner of the
grub And the butterfly; 'but they should recollect that the
butterfly did not crawl .on the earth, but flew in the pea-
yens. (Applause and laughter.) All that, however, had
(ttn.ehaornletilp4iflioe'llg;alg;°:glietdol:f:atw.syjits't(it htnal'u'dedibil'rerienstethlliiac)ui.dlota.tatl,st:ciis;Haeurde,:arwr,rillba
eperac;:ipi:Ye'n:a:)tededoftntillh,:ii
on both sides it was admitted that the temple cere-
monies were weak and beggarly elements, which • had •
passed away ; but lie repeated- his call for proof that the •
triasiaildmd;eftenAnhs:trptidctibitlemi:wdstitifpcemyvAs.jairteoiHietm leyirsc;
to?s)p)st-ntifotnghseocogiugnehhaasr.ntic.rcahv iouri•eiet.tyi
churchmen
ii(nnLopita-uiiiddee
ehurch, they did not 'fir their faith on the *pis-dons of any
man, and more especially of a bad Churchman, Church-
men were not Whatelyites--they were Catholic Chris-
tians, (Applause.) "We know no rifle of faith,''
.said

' the reverend gentleman emphatically, " but the Bible !"
(Tremendous cheers.) Then the question was, were they
bound to go the whole length of the Mosaic Law ? No,
they all said. Our Saviour told them that his kingdom
was not of this world—be said that his kingdom was
not to be supported by fighting against the State,—
and he himself set the example of what Christians
ought to do when accused before the Roman governor of
treason, and therefore he (Mr. Baylee) was ready to de-
clare that the passage quoted by Mr. Miall denied the
right to propagate religion by the sword. (Hear, hear.)
It never occurred to a churchman to identify his religion
with tithes, or church-rates, or endowments to the clergy
—his religion was something more—it consisted of the
principles taught by our Lord Jesus Christ. (Cheers.)
His opponent had spoken on the subject of toleration: there
again was manifest ignorance of the Old Testament,
for there was toleration even under the Mosaic law. The
poor heathen who took up his residence in the land of
Judea was not bound to become a Jew, though if he held
land he was obliged to pay tithes ; therefore, he said, no
man ought to be coerced to become a Christian. (Loud
cheers.) • He did not plead for the full adoption of the
Levitical code, whilst he did plead for the full truth of
the principles of that code. (Continued cheers.) All,
therefore, that his opponent had quoted from the prophets
respecting voluntary offerings only referred to the temple,
and that he (Mr. Baylee) gave up. But they were told
that David gave of his own proper goods. (Cheers.) Now
when his opponent quoted on that subject, he should have
answered this question—Where did David get what he
gave from ? Did he acquire the property when a poor
shepherd-boy—was it from the fleeces of his flocks ? or
was it not from the taxes paid to him by his people ?
(Continued applause.) True it was, our blessed Saviour
said—" the kingdom of God is within you." There was
that within the heart of the true Christian which
no act of Parliament could either give or withhold.
Now here was a kingdom which he gladly and
freely assented could not be supported either by money or
compulsion. This was the kingdom which the. ministers
of Christ gladly went forth to establish by the preaching
of the Gospel to every creature, so as to set up that king-
dom in the heart of every man ( hear, hear). His oppo-
nent, however, argued as if that were the only king-
dom of God. Now, he recollected, when at college
- one of the principles of arguing was what was called
suppressio veri, the suppression of the truth, and the
argument on this subject, which would confine the
kingdom of God to the reign of grace in the heart was
very like it. He, however, would ask, had not God an
outward power, an outward framework as well as an in-
ward reign in the heart. The rise of the kingdom of GOd
upon earth was plainly and positively predicted in Daniel,
If c. 44 v., " And in the days of these kings shall the
God of Heaven set up a kingdom which shall .never be
destroyed : and the kingdom shall not be left to other
people, but it shall break in pieces, and consume all these
kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as
thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain
without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the
brass, and clay, the silver, and the gold ; the great God
hath made known to the king what shalll come to pass
hereafter : and the dream is certain, and the interpreta-
tion thereof sure." Here it was said that that which was
once a stone should become a mountain, and subvert all
present kingdoms. Here they had a prediction of the
kingdom on earth that was to overrule all other king-
doms upon earth, and that surely was not the king-
dom of grace in the heart,. (Hear and cheers.) This
kingdom was also referred to by St. Paul, II Timothy,
iv. 1, "I charge thee therefore before God, and
the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick
and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom." And
in Revelations in. 21, our blessed Saviour says, speaking
of his kingdom—" To him that overcometh will I grant
to sit on my throne, as I also overcame, and am sat down
with niy Father in his throne." (Hear, hear!) "My
dissenting fellow christians," said the speaker, " I beg to
remind you that your pleader and your system have fal-
len into Romish errors. (Confusion, drowned in cheers.)
I beg to remind you that the struggle for the separa-
tion of the regal power from the Church was
the great struggle of the Popedom for ages ; that
the struggle of the Popes was to do away with the kingly
office, and to endeavour to set up the monkish system in-
stead. (Loud cheers.) I beg to remind you that the
looking to the Jewish temple and its ceremonies has been
the soul-destroying error of Romanism, and the means
of bringing in the sacrifice of the Mass. (Loud cheers
and bear, hear.) The reverend gentleman then proceeded
to exhibit the contrast between the Abrahamic and the
Mosaic dispensations, and the identity of the former with
the Christian. He referred to the 7th chapter of John and
the 22d verse : " Moses therefore gave yon circumcision,
not because it is of Moses but of the fathers." Now
if they contrasted that with ,the Galatians, 3rd chapter,
they would find that there was not a greater contrast be-
tween the Christian dispensation and the Jewish, than
there was between that and Abrahamic worship. After
quoting the 16th and 17th verses of that chapter, he
observed—here we have the covenant of God in Christ as
the seed of Abraham. We could not say more of the
Gentile dispensation ; and, therefore, if the weak and
beggarly element of tithes belongs to the one, it also
belongs to the other. He therefore argued that the
Christian dispensation was not the destruction of, but an
addition made to the Abrahamic covenant. He next called
attention to the argument of Mr. Miall, in reply to his
passages from Scripture respecting the payment of tithes
and the union of prince and priest, observing that lie had
not argued that they were bound to adopt the system be-
cause they found it in existence then ; but because it was
then approved of by God, it could not now be injustice, as
had been attempted to be proved, though that point
seemed now to be given up, and therefore he hoped
it was a proof that some little progress had been
made in the matter. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.)
He confessed he had looked with some anxiety to see
what would be the arguments brought forward with re-
spect to the prophecies of Ezekiel as to Christian times.
He was anxious to see whether modern dissenters agreed
with those of former times, and as Archbishop Whateley
had been quoted against them, probably he might
be allowed to refer to Dr. Gill, the baptist, and Matthew
Henry, a non-conformist, though if not agreeable he had
no wish to take their opinions as binding on dissenters
generally. However he might ask whether they were not
authorities, and if they were not, he would give them up,
merely remarking that they thought, with Churchmen, that
the Prophecies of Ezekiel refer to Christian times, and he
believed that the time was speedily coming " when the
Lord Jesus should be revealed from heaven taking ven-
geance on them that know not God, and that obey not
the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Hear, hear.)
On two or three occasions on Friday evening, he (Mr.
Baylee) really thought his opponent had forgotton his
side, so applicable did his arguments appear to the sup 7
port of the prinCiple of the unison of church and state.
There was an argument about man's unwillingness
to receive the Gospel truth and his repugnance to it, and
therefore he ( Mr. Baylee) thought it right that a king
entrusted with God's treasures should have pity upon
them and bestow some of his treasures in behalf of
such persons. ( Hear, hear.) Then again if there was
to be Parliamentary compulsion to the extent of
taking not less than about £8,000,000 out of the
taxes of the country for the support, of those perishing of
famine, was it not quite as good a reason to tax men for
the support of the souls of those who were perishing for
lack of knowledge. (Hear, and loud applause.) Ile
thought, as it was not considered wrong to compel un-
willing and pauper landlords to contribute towards the
support of their tenantry, surely it could not be wrong to
! compel them to afford something towards the support of
that which was of infinitely more importance, namely,
their spiritual welfare. (Continued cheering.) As to the
observations about. Cyrus, who had compelled his eathen
subjects to contribute towards the rebuilding of the Tem-
ple, surely God's command was the highest authority
which could he given to show the justice of an act.
("Hear, hear." and renewed applause.) It was however
further argued that. the Jewish dispensation was a childish
one, and that we were the wise men of the world. (Loud
laughter.) The distinction between the two was illustrated
by a child when at school writing large hand, and then
running hand when he left school, and therefore it was said
we should throw aside the Jewish. It however appeared to
him that the large hand and the small were identical,
syllable for syllable,—the same in sound, in sense and
shape ; and the only difference he could perceive was the
clumsiness of the large hand, and the suitability of the
small hand. There was, however, another application of
' the principle which would apply. A child went to
school to learn principles and truths which were not to
be thrown aside when he left, but to govern and regu-
late his actions in after life. (Applause.) As to the
argument about the punishment of idolaters under the
Mosaic law, and the demand whether he would there-
fore argue in favour of persecution, his answer was, he
would not-,—be gave
cause of non-cent-Inanity. It belonged not to the present
system, but was confined to one, nation- and was limited
to the -Mosaic. Dispensation ; but he defied any one to
prove that even under that there was puiii,hinent to
be inflicted for non-attentance upon the synagogue
worship ; and he thought that when Queen Elizabeth in- -
flieted punishment upon those who did not attend
church, she did wrong, and accordance with the prin..
elides of Rome instead of the Gospel. He would not
care to have ten thousand hearers, unless they listened to
'him from conscientious motives. (Loud cheers.) The I
Rev. Gentleman then proceeded to show the identity
of the Old Testament dispensation with that of the
New, and asserted that whatever was the religion
supported •by the state, it was the duty of all
subjects to contribute to it. He quoted the conduct of
our Saviour, who worked a miracle to pay tribute towards
heathen Rome, though that was not compulsory on hiM,
and the words of St. Paul, to pay tribute to whom tribhte
is due. Next he referred to Romans xvi, 23 v., and said
even St. Paul made a companion of the treasurer of .a
Heathen State, and did not object to receive part. of the
protits'he derived from the taxes towards it. There was
however a parallel to Ernst us in the conduct of. Daniel, who
was the treasurer of a heathen prince, collected his taxes
and paid them over, though lie knew a portion would go
to support idolatry ; but when asked to become a member
of the state church, he did not put his hand to his
_pocket
and say, "My religion is there." (Hear and cheers.)
He then proceeded to show the propriety of state endow-
ments from the New Testament. That book was a sup-
plementary one to the Old Testament. It did not bring
in a new religion, but as St.. Paul said, " We say none other
things than those that Moses and the Prophets did say
should cometo pass." After some other arguments from
the same scriptures, proving that the Lord. Jesus Christ
paid tribute to heathen Rome, though lie knew a portion of
the taxes gathered from the provinces would go in
support of the heathen worshi that St. Paul said, re-
ferring toa heathen prince, "Whosoever resisteth the
power, resisteth the ordinance of God ;" that St. Peter
required obedience to Kings; that the temple service
was destroyed and done away with, but that a syua.
gogue—not the sacrificing priests, still'existed, was in
fact continued in our parish priests, for ho was
sae ashamed of the word, He r ,ferred to the charge
nt Ide against bin), of being what the Jow-aal c lied