The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS..tThuusnAy,

The adjourned debate on the Education Question was re-
sumed by Sir W. Clay, and after Sir. J. Pakington, Mr.
Hume, Sir J. Graham, and one or two other members
had addressed the house,
Lord J. RUSSELL declared himself relieved by the turn
which the debate had taken from any apprehensions which
he had once entertained of the objections which might be
urged against his scheme. He found that Mr. T. Dun -
combe, who was the organ of the Congregationalists and
Baptists on this occasion, had not ventured to propound
their principle, that the state had no right to educate the
people, and that the glory or disgrace of advocating that
doctrine was reserved for Mr. Bright, and for Mr. Bright
alone. It was, therefore, too much to ask the house to
agree to this committee of inquiry ; for, considering the
terms in which the motion was couched ; it could mean
nothing else but a censure on the ministry for their de-
sire to give education to the great body of the people.
He recounted the services which the Whigs, as a party,
had rendered to the dissenters—asked what Mr. Bright
had ever done for the dissenters to outweigh the sense of
those services ? and asserted that, with those services fresh
in the recollection of the country, it was perfectly mon-
strous to impute to the government a desire to interfere
with their religious feelings and convictions. He then
entered into a detailed statement of the reasons which
had led to what wos called the exclusion of the Roman
Catholics from the benefit of these Minutes. He denied,
first of all. that the Government had done anything to
lead the Wesleyans into the belief that no aid would ever
be given to the Roman Catholic schools ; and next, that
they had thrown the Catholics overboard for the mere
purpose of conciliating the Wesleyans. He showed that
Sir J. Graham, who now blamed the government for ex-
cluding the Roman Catholics, had absolutely voted for
their exclusion in 1839, and had afterwards excluded them
himself during the six years he remained in office. The
Committee of Privy Council had declared, both to the
Wesleyans and the Roman Catholics, that it would here-
after propose a grant for Roman Catholic schools. The
question then arose, whether the government ought to
propose it now, and to endanger the success of their whole
scheme by throwing into it such an additional cause of
discord ? He was that if the Government had
revived the nronosition of 1839, or if in December last it

had proposed a grant for Roman Catholic

would have been unable to carry its present schem

lustration on that point would have no difficulty in find-
ing it in the occurrences of last week. He hoped that
when these grants had been agreed to for some years, and
when the result of them was known, government would
be able to bring. in a bill on this subject ; but the variety

of opinions expressed in tins declare convinces nun iaia►,
they bad been right in not legislating upon it at present.
He concluded by recommending the Minutes to the fa-

vourable consideration of the h-Ouse.
After a few observations from Colonel SIBTHORPE, u-
nressive of his want of confidence in Lord J. RUSSELL

and his scheme,

Sir R. PEEL admitted that in 1839 he had fully shared
in the objections which were urged against the plan of
imposing on the country a new scheme of education by
fb,

te the monstrous evils of

delay by insisting upon them on the present occasion
He reminded the house of Sir James Graham's failure it

his measure of 1843, for the education of factory children,
which he proposed to accomplish, not by a resolution of
that house, but by legislative enactment ; and said that as
thousands were born every week, for whose education,
moral, religious, and intellectual, no provision was made,
he was ready to accede at once to any proposition which,
without violating religious feeling. would remedy these
great and crying evils. If he could believe that the non-

b
at once admit that whatever might be the right of the
State to interfere in education, it had better not exercise
it. But the evidence was conclusive that the voluntary
nrinrinle had failed. and therefore it was necessary for the

of our existing schools, but also of our schoolmasters,
and praised her Majesty's Ministers for their intention to
provide better schools and to elevate the condition of the
schoolmaster. He deeply regretted that these minutes
had met the disapprobation of the Nonconformists. He
did not believe that their objections to them were founded
in justice. These minutes adopted the voluntary princi-
ple. No state interference superseded it ; for they could
They were also
Tefore he had no

)eration

uaseu un a principle ui equanty,
hesitation in giving them his support against the opposi-
tion of Mr. Duncombe. Alluding to the Roman Catho-
lics, he expressed his opinion that no system of general
education, even in England. would be complete from
which they were excluded. The house was now about to
admit to a participation in this vote a class of Dissenters,
the Wesleyans, which had hitherto been excludedfrona it.
It was therefore widening the sphere of the national
bounty, and in the same proportion making the exclusion
from it more marked. The time was, therefore, come
when justice and good policy required from the govern-
ment a mature consideration of the position of its Ro-
man Catholic subjects. The government could not in
justice exClude them from this grant. He considered the
speech of Lord John Russell as holding out a hope that
this question would be more speedily settled than was ex-
, meted. and he (Sir R. Peel) therefore would not risk the

ment to propose at once a scheme for the education of
the Roman Catholics. If there was a probability of an
early election, it was important that there should be no
mistake on the intentions of the government on this sub-
ject, for then the country would not be taken by surprise
upon it. _ _ _

PLumprum said that the difficulty which the go-

vernment found in the settlement of this question arose,
not from the people of England being unjust people, but
from their being a religious and Protestant people. The
leaders of both parties in that house had told them plainly
where they were going ! and he, therefore, had hoped that
at the next election the people would take care to elect re-
presentatives of their own Christian and Protestant feel-
ingM.
r. NEWDEGATE declared his intention of voting for
these minutes, and asked Lord John Russell whether in
case he should hereafter issue any other minute recom-
mending a plan of popular education, he would pursue the
same course which he had upon this occasion, and submit
it to Parliament for approbation.
Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the affirmative.

The house then divided, when the numbers were—For
Mr. Duncombe's motion, 47 ; against it, 372
.; majority
against it, 325.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-FRIDAY

The royal assent was given by commission to various
bills.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, in answer to the Earl of
Wicklow, replied, that in consequence of information he
had received from Ireland he had been induced to make
alterations in the Incumbered Estates Bill, the second
reading of which he should move on Tuesday.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reference to the re-
cent execution of a female at Bury St. Edmunds, which
had been brought under his notice, and that of the house,
on a former evening by the Marquis of Westmeath, ob-
served, that having caused inquiries to be made as to the
revolting circumstances alleged to have taken place on
that occasion, he, on the authority of a letter he had re-
ceived from the clergyman who attended the unfortunate
woman in her last moments, positively denied that any
circumstances such as those which had appeared in the
public prints had occurred. The rev. gentleman stated
that some individuals had endeavoured to obtain admit-
tance to the gaol, and were refused, to which refusal might
be attributed the false statement which had been pub-
lished, and which was in direct contravention of the facts.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH expressed himself satis-
fied with the explanation given.
Lords STANLEY and MONTEAGLE having, in explana-
tory speeches as to their contents, presented several im-
portant petitions from distillers in the United Kingdom
against the Customs Duties Bill, the Earl of CLARENDON,
in a speech detailing the course which the government
had pursued with reference to the measure, moved that it
be read a•second time, Lord CAMPBELL and Earl GREY
supporting the motion.
The Duke of MONTROSE moved that the bill be refer-
red to a select committee ; the speakers in favour of that
proposition being Lords EGLINTON, STANLEY, and
MONTEAGLE.

At the termination of the debate the house divided, the
second reading being carried by a majority of 9; the nu►n-
bers being 57 to 48.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRIDAY

• The question of the second reading of the Bathwick
Church Bill was carried on a division by a majority of 52.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to Sir De Lacy Evans,
replied, that the British Government had expressed a very
strong opinion against the course pursued by that of
Portugal with respect to the prisoners taken by. Marshal
Saldanha, which he hoped would have the effect of pro-
curing a mitigation of their sentence, but as yet no intel-
ligence had been received that the order so justly com-
plained of had been recalled. The noble lord also, in
reference to the business of the House, stated that if the
education debate should close that night, he should pro-
pose that the report be received on Monday ; after which
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would submit a vote to
enable the Loan Commissioners to advance some large
sums of money for certain railways in Ireland. Sir G.
Grey would then propose the consideration of the Prisons
Bill, on which question it was to be presumed the debate
on transportation would arise. Monday, the 3rd of May,
he had consented to give up in favour of the third reading
of the Factory Bill, and on Monday, the 10th, he pro-
posed to go on with the Railway Bill.
Sir W. MOLESWOILICH postponed his motion relative to
the existing exclusion of Roman Catholics from partici-
pation in the grant for education until the bringing up

the report.
The adjourned debate on the education question was
resumed by Sir WILLIAM CLAY, who moved an amend-
ment to the effect that the opportunity of participating in
all instruction, other than religious, should be afforded to
children whose parents may object to the religious doc-
trines taught in schools receiving pecuniary assistance
from the state. A protracted discussion ensued, the
proposition being opposed by the Government, at the
termination of which the House divided, 74 hon members
voting in favour of Sir. Wm. Clay's motion, and 210
against it.

-The house then resolved 1:Ato committee, and the grant
of £lOO,OOO for the purposes of education ttai agreed to,
and the report was ordered to be brought up on Monday.