The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-05-04 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-THURSDAY

Mr. Walter was introduced by Sir F. Burdett and Mr
Fielden, and took the oaths and his seat for Nottingham. Thu
honourable member was loudly and enthusiastically cheered
as he approached the table.
Mr. R. HODGSON moved that the British Plate Glass
Company's bill, which had been referred to the Hampshire
list, be referred back to the committee of selection, with an
instruction to the committee that it be referred to the Surrey
list, instead of the Hampshire fist.
Mr. ESTCOURT opposed the motion.
A. discussion ensued, in which Mr. Hinde, Sir R. Inglis,
Mr. R. Palmer, and other members took part ; after which
the house divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority
The motion was consequently lost.
A number of petitions on various subjects were presented
At five o'clock the house was exceedingly crowded with
members on both sides.
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS (IRELAND) BILL.

Lord MORPETH moved the order of the day for going into
committee on the Parliamentary Voters (Ireland) bill.
In answer to a question from Mr. G. PALMER,

Lord J. RUSSELL said he should postpone the further con-
sideration of the Poor-law bill from Monday until Monday
se'nnight. (Hear.)

THE BUDGET

In answer to questions by Col. SIBTRORP,

Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would make his financial statement
to-morrow, and on Monday he should bring forward the
civil contingencies.
The house then went into committee on the Parliamen-
tary Voters (Ireland) bill, Mr. Bernal in the chair.
The CHAIRMAN said the question before the house was
that clause 2 stand part of the bill.
Lord MORPETH said, although the subject had been so
frequently discussed, yet he felt called upon to state his
views of the proposed mode of altering the registration, par-
ticularly as such a threatened and combined opposition was
offered to it. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord then proceeded
to describe, in a technical manner, his opinion of the bear-
ings of the measure. He wished to see the Irish franchise
fixed on some definite and solid basis. Since the passing of
the Irish Reform Act there had been 42 election petitions
against the return of members for places in that country ;
but he believed in no instance had there been any allegation
of personation of voters, of fraud, or of perjury; but the
complaint, in almost every case, was, that individuals bad
been improperly placed on the registry. The noble lord then
defended the course which the government had taken in
changing the franchise from £5 to £8 ; it was not a depar-
ture from the priuciple of the bill, and alterations in impor-
tant measures had frequently been made by former adminis-
trations, many instances of which, if necessary, he might
quote. They had at first thought that a£s franchise would
have been the best •, in deference to the wishes of many they
had increased it to £B, although he (Lord Morpeth) knew
that by so doing they should disfranchise a great number of
the present £lO voters. He (Lord Morpeth) certainly had
heard with some regret, that the right hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Tamworth had thrown himself into the impetuous
course marked out for him by his noble associates. (A.
laugh.) -If a triumph was, however, now obtained, it was
impossible to tell how long the victory might last. (Loud
and great cheering from the ministerial benches.)
Lord STANLEY said he took no part in the debate on this
clause more than observing that he should oppose it. And
be should not have done so had it not been for the misrepre-
sentations and sneers of the noble lord. (Hear.) He dis-
regarded those sneers (great cheering), and he would say the
whole conduct of the government in conducting the bill had
been one entire system of recklessness. (Hear, hear, and
great cheering.) The noble lord had misrepresented both
the principle which the house had affirmed and the objections
taken on his (Lord Stanley's) side of the house to the bill of
the noble lord. The noble lord stated that the house by the
second reading of the bill affirmed the principle of defining
the franchise according to the test of the poor-law valuation.
The house, in affirming the principle of the bill, affirmed
that they would permit the government to submit to them,
and discuss in detail a measure which it was supposed that
they had, as was the duty of the government before submit-
ting, maturely considered in its details, collected the facts
and were prepared to stand by the provisions they had re-
commended. (Loud cheers.) On his (Lord Stanley's) side
of the house they took no objection to the government find-
ing a better and more satisfactory basis for the franchise than
the oaths of the parties interested on either side. On the
contrary, in the discussion that had taken place they had de-
clared that it was more the duty of the honourable member
for Mallow than it was of the honourable member for
Monaghan, whose consistency had been so unfairly im-
pugned by the noble lord last night.—(Reiterated cheering.)
It seemed to them most desirable that a real stringent and
efficient test should be applied to the oath of the party
himself, value of property other than oath of the party him-
self, or evidence upon oath, and, moreover they affirmed that
the best and most efficient test, for the amount of the value
was founded on the principle of rating, which imposed a tax
at the same time that it affirmed a franchise. (Hear, hear.)
But the noble lord had found it convenient to omit that which
was the principle of the bill from the details. (Cheers.)
They were willing to take valuation for the purpose of rating as
the test of value in the property, but they were not willing to
take the value of the property apart from the charges and in-
cumbrances on it as the amount of the qualification—(loud
cheers)—and that was the principle of the noble lord's bill—
that value to a certain amount, tested by rating, should
be the standard, and they. were disposed to agree with him
in that principle. But, in addition, that it should be
a test not of the value of the property, but of the
qualification of voting. They contended that, although it
was the best test of the franchise, yet it must be estimated
over and above the amount of the charges and incumbrances
thereon. The noble lord assumed that that was the point of
difference between them. That was the point of difference
between them upon principle. That was the point which was
broadly and plainly stated to the House on Monday night,
and that was the point on which the House of Commons de-
cided in favour of a beneficial interest against the no bene-
ficial interest contended for by the Noble Lord, and that was
the point for which they again stood up in opposition to her
Majesty's Government. He stated, moreover, and he would
repeat it frankly, that in the Poor-law valuation he could
place no confidence. The very evidence the Noble Lord had
produced coming forward in succession as it did paper by
paper, week after week, and month after month, but before
the house subsequent to the Bill—(opposition cheers)—that
evidence had gone on no fixed, or stable, or uniform princi-
ple. In one thing only had it been uniform—in disregarding
the provisions of the Act of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
But how far the Act had been disregarded how much the
valuators were below the rate—whether it was 5 per cent., or
30, 40, or 50 per cent. beneath the real value, could not be
learned. That was the account which their own Commission-
ers had given them of their own evidence ; and yet it was
on that evidence that the noble lord asked the House to
form, not a prima facie case, but a conclusive proof of the
real and actual value of the premises, while the Commis-
sioners told them that it formed no conclusive or proximate
evidence, but that it varied in the proportions of its defi-
ciency and errors in every union and in every different part
of Ireland. He would say again that in the present state he
should decline, on the evidence they had now to assume it,
as the basis, even as the first element to be laid down,,viz.,
of the value of the property, exclusive of the amount of the
burden charged on that property. He did not mean to say
that rating might not be soicorrect that it might be made so
perfect, and ultimately approximate so nearly to the real
value, and become so uniform, that .they would be fairly
entitled and enabled to assume it, not as a test of the
value of the property on which the party claimed his
vote. But in the present state of things he could not take
it as any test either of the franchise or the value.
The noble lord then spoke of the manner in which the
evidence on this measure had been furnished, and the effect
of it upon the constituency.
After some further discussion the house divided, when the
numbers were—
For the clause
Against the clause

Majority against Ministers

After the divi;ion; Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he com-
plained not that the clause had been rejected, but that the
grounds of the rejection had not been made intelligible to
the government or to the country. With regard to the
future, he thought that parliament was bound to look at
least that Ireland should not be deprived of the benefits in-
tended to be secured to her by the act of 1829. The charge
of vacillation, adduced against the government, reminded
him of the scene in the " Rivals," where Falkland condemns
the inconsistency of Julia, for being about to change her
declared purpose ; and then, finding that she never has had
any such intention, rates her for her pride and obstinacy in
adhering to her resolve. When he remembered the sacri-
fices made by the whigs for the catholic question, he thought
that the Irish ought not to be told that there was no party
in the state which took an anxious interest in their welfare.
He was satisfied that no future bill would be useful which
should not be based on a definition of the franchise; but he
thought it could answer no wise or conciliatory purpose to
keep up the discuision of the present measure. He moved
that the chairtnan do now quit the chair.
Sir R. PEEL concurred in the opinion that it would answer
no good purpose to go on with this bill. The government
had very little ground for complaining of its opponents, who
had taken a straightforward ad manly course. They had
stated throughout that they objected to the new leasehold
franchise proposed in this bill. And in answer to the ques-
tion, what they (the conservatives) desired to see done, they
had declared that it was not for them, but only for the mi-
nisters themselves, to originate a measure on such a subject.

He paid no regard to lotirArLtionti totonde4 to rain (Ronan
among his own friends, In whose racks the most perfect
union prevailed—(prodigious cheering)—and he would not
retort them on Lord Morpeth, so much did he feel for the
painful situation of that noble lord, deserted as he was by his
own partisans. But he must condemn the changes made by
government without reason, and merely in the hope of con-
ciliating two or three votes, though, in fact, they had gained
by all their sacrifices only one single votc—the vote of Mr.
Slaney, of Shrewsbury. If the conservatives had proposed
the change from 4:5 to £B, how loudly would they have been

abused as enemies of Ireland !
Lord HOWICK repudiated the idea that he was indifferent
to the welfare of the people of Ireland, and intimated that
when he was'a member of the cabinet he was prepared to go
further than even his noble friend (Lord J. Russell) thought
prudent at the time.

After a few words from Mr. SLAN EY

Mr. BERNAL put the question that he should leave the
chair which being agreed to, the bill was of course lost.

The other ordersofithe day were then disposed of, and the

house adjourned

HOUSE OF LORDS.-FRIDAY

The report on the drainage bill was agreed to, and the bill
was ordered to be read a third•time on Tuesday (this day).
The South Australian bill passed through a committee,
and their lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRIDAY

The Chairman of the Committee on the King's County
Election reported that Mr. Armstrong had been duly elected
as member for that county.

Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that, on the first order day
after the 31st of May, he would move that the house should
resolve itself into a committee of the whole house to consider
the laws relating to the trade in corn. Immense cheering
from the ministerial benches, with counter-cheering from
the opposition, followed this announcement.
The house having resolved itself into a committee of ways
and means,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought forward
his financial statement for the year. He, in the first in-
stance, drew the attention of the house to the expectations
he had formed last year of the expenditure and income of the
country. The expenditure he had estimated at £49,499,000
—the income at £48,641,000, leaving an estimated deficiency
of £858,000 which he had proposed to meet by a vote of cre-
dit. The actual results, however, proved to be that the ex-
penditure amounted to £49,285,000, and the income to
£47,443,000, leaving a deficiency larger than he had esti-
mated by the sum of nearly £1,000,000. By comparing the
estimated with the actual income there appeared to be a defi-
ciency of £1,198,000. This deficiency arose, not from any
unfavourable result of the additional taxation which had been
imposed, but from a falling off in the revenue, which, under
any circumstances, would have taken place. The produce of
the 5 per cent. duty on customs and excise had been calcu-
lated from the returns of the year 1839, which year gave a
great increase on the year before; aud, as that increase did
not continue, the additional duties were on many articles un-
productive. The articles upon which there had been an in-
crease, both in quantity and duties, were butter, cheese,
coffee, olive oil, pepper, silks (raw and thrown), timber, and
cotton wool. The articles upon which there had been a de-
crease in quantity but an increase in duty were raisins, tallow,
tobacco, tea, and American deals ; and the articles upon
which there had been a decrease, both in quantity and duty,
were currants, molasses, spirits, sugar, wine, wool, and
European deals. The falling off in the duty on spirits in Ire-
land amounted to £354,000, which was no proof, he felt plea-
sure in stating, of the decreased resources of the country, for
it was entirely owing to the increased habits of temperance in
the people of that country. On the other band the payments
into the Irish exchequer showed an increase in the amount
of duties on tea and coffee. There had been also in Ireland
an increase in the auction duty, and an increase in the duties
on bricks, glass, ground glass, soap, soft soap, malt, vinegar,
and in the post-horse duty. The stamps and taxes exhibited
an increase beyond the estimate of £60,000. With respect
to the decrease in the Post-office, it was not the result of a
decrease in the number of letters, but was entirely owing to
the increased expenditure which it was found necessary to
incur in that department. The right hon. gentleman then
proceeded to give the following statement of his expectations
of the revenue, and of the expenditure for the ensuing year :

ESTIMATED EXPENDITURE
Interest of the national debt.,

Other charges on the Consolidated Fund

£29,420,000
2,400,000
6,587,000
6,805,000
2,075,000
2,935,000
108,000

The army

The navy
The ordnance
Miscellaneous
Canada

China
With respect to China, there were some charges in the ac-
count sent in by the East India Company which would be to
be paid by the company itself, and he would therefore put
that item down at only £400,000, and this deduction would
give a total amount of expenditure of £50,731,776. In esti-
mating the coming revenue, he had endeavoured to take a
very sober view of the subject. The customs last year, which
was rather an unfavourable one, produced £21,700,000. He
estimated them to produce the ensuing year £22,000,000.
The excise produced last year £13,673,000. He estimated
the result this year to be £14,000,000. Stamps produced
last year £7,183,000. He took them at £7,000,000 for this
year. The assessed taxes produced last year £3,989,432, but
as the increased 10 per cent. had not come into operation for
a considerable period of the year, he thought himself justi-
fied in estimating them to produce £4,300,000. The Post-
office he estimated to produce £450,000, the crown lands
£lBO,OOO, and miscellaneous £250,000, making a total of
£48,310,000. This gave a deficiency 'of income to meet the
expenditure of no less than £2,421,000. From this defici-
ency he should deduct the charge for China of £400,000, and
the navy debt of £391,000, as .not being permanent annual
charges on the revenue, and for which it would not be ad-
visable to make permanent provision. This would leave the
deficiency to be provided for £1,800,000. Under the cir-
cumstances he had stated, he deemed it necessary to in-
crease the revenue of the country to £50,000,000, which
would leave £3,700,000 to be provided. In order to raise
this amount it would be necessary either to fall back on
some of the taxes they had repealed, such as the house tax,
or the tax on coals ; or they must bring in those parties who
had hitherto been exempted from taxation by imposing a
legacy duty upon real property, or they must take away those
exemptions by which certain classes were now benefited,
such as the exemption of horses used for agricultural pur-
poses. If they adopted none of these, they must tax those
new articles gas and stearc, or lastly, they must resort to a
tax which had now become popular—an extensive property
tax. If they resorted to taxation at all, they must adopt one
or other of these courses, and it was their duty to turn to
those which would throw no additional burdens on the
people. In order to increase the revenue he proposed to al-
ter the duties on timber and sugar. Colonial timber now
paid a duty of 10s. a load, while Baltic timber paid 555., be-
ing a protecting duty of 450 per cent. He proposed to adopt
a suggestion formerly proposed by Lord Althorp, of raising
the duty on colonial timber to 205., and reducing the duty on
Baltic timber to 50s. By this alteration the consumer would
be greatly benefited, and the revenue would be increased
probably to the extent of £750,000 ; but he would be con-
tent to take it at £600,000. With respect to sugar, which,
if not an absolute necessary, at all events might be esteemed
the poor man's cheapest luxury, he proposed to leave to co-
lonial produce a protecting duty of only 50 per cent. The
present duty on foreign sugar was 63, and on colonial 24,
and he proposed to reduce the former to 36. This he be-
lieved would produce a revenue of £900,000; but he would
take it at £700,000. which, with the produce from timber,
would give a result upon which they might rely, to the
amount of £1,300,000, leaving still a deficiency of £400,000.
This £lOO,OOO he did not propose to make any provision for
at present, because of the motion respecting the corn laws,
of which his noble friend had given notice, and which if car-
ried would amply supply the deficiency. On the other hand,
if the proposition of his noble friend should not he agreed to,
he must make provision for the £400,000 by direct taxation.
Mr. GOULBURN would not give any opinion upon the
plans proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for sup-
plying the deficiency in the revenue, but would reserve his
sentiments until each measure should come before the house
for discussion. The hon. gentleman reviewed the conduct
of the government since the year 1835, showing that they
have been every year adding to the expenditure of the country,
while its income had been constantly diminishing, until they
at length crowned its embarrassments, by the delusive insti-
tution of the penny postage.
Mr. HOME regretted that not one word had been said that
could lead him to hope that that there was to be any reduc-
tion in the heavy expenditure which had led to this great
defieiency. He had always warned the government of fife
result of keeping up the enormous expenditure of the coun-
try, and he had a right to taunt them when the difficulties-he
predicted arose, a right which gentlemen on the other side
of the house did not possess, for they had been always urging
the government to increased expenditure. The hon. member
then contended at considerable length for the necessity of an
alteration of the corn laws, and defended the penny postage,
though no system could work well when not governed by a
man of business instead of by a peer, who, from his habits
and station in society, must be unfit for such a situation as
that of postmaster-general.

Several hon. members on the ministerial side expressed
their concurrence in the views of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer respecting the duties on corn ; after which
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON expressed his astonishment, not
that the noble lord (J. Russell) after the strong expression
he had used on a former occasion upon the subject of the
corn laws should have now proposed the subject for discus.
sion, but that he should have postponed the subject for five
weeks to come instead of at once enabling the house to
re-assure the agricultural interests by a single vote upon the
subject.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to a question from Lord Sandon,
said that the proposition he intended to bring forward upon
the subject of the corn laws would embody the principle of a
moderate fixed duty, and the question would be brought for-
ward by the government as one upon which the cabinet was
united.

Sir R. PEEL was surprised that the noble lord should have
postponed his motion on the subject of the corn laws for five
weeks, more particularly as he had connected the subjeCt
with the financial circumstances of the country. The right
hon. baronet defended his side of the house for the course
they had pursued in supporting the foreign policy of the go-
vernment, although it necessarily led to very considerable
expense, _

Lord J. RUSSELL said that, owing to the important mea-
sures before the house, he did not see any possibility of bring-
ing the question of the corn-laws before the house sooner
than the period he had named.

Mr. WAKLEY hoped that the proposed alteration in pro-
tective duties would not be confined to the corn laws alone
but would be extended to every branch of manufacture and
commerce.

Lord Howxcx advocated the proposal of a fixed duty, end
would give his support to the government when the question
came on for discnssion.

After a few observations from Mr. M. PHILLIPS and Mr
A. CHAPMAN,

that,
ha
aMd t
sr Mr.
fdLhAhe ue
couldo y
couldo' t
bE
eRa
nyEs
he
aet hisvwfie oeohcoduaat
would thdhteiar
most
upontshe
oti
these
tees principleswillingly
fiilpaltri
hnineg heartclyihp house,
and
nsas
dewceoohdnri tecdrethiahlaadelhrlei
cordially
had been endeavouring all his life to promote, would be taken
p
scuigipmpbiony emrgtgietnhntetolmo;ffiebnceecO'ause those principles were essentially na-
tional, and had been advocated before him by deputations
from all classes of manufacturers and mercantile men from
all parts of England, and of all political persuasions.
Mr. HERRIES said that the deficiency appeared to he about
£2,400,000, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed
to provide for £1,700,000 only, leaving a deficiency of
£700,000. This alarmed him, for he feared it migtuistuebrchebtilhles
in-
tention
intention to meet it by enlarging the sinking fund through
the medium of the Savings Bank Act. This was a dangerous
e heg should
andmo,sthieinachoonasitditmutoiositiaelerstateipe,lyanodppifotsheeirte. anywaxicht
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that such a
power was one which no minister ought to pOisess, but so
through long ashteh
edid
mediumpossesso
tfh et
hpower, i
Savings
s Banksfunding A
exchequer
not hesitate, if necessary, to exercise it.
Mr. VILLIERS expressed his gratification that the question
of the corn laws was at last taken out of his hands by the go.
vernment, and pledged himself to give them every support
upon the question, when it was brought forward.
intMerre.atAolfdLeromadanonTwneroemaPostozvcoounratehrde that
lietod
the
erete shipping
mhovalof
the
restrictive duties on timber and sugar.
After some further discuision, the motion of the Chancellor
of the Exshequer, which was one of mere form, was agreed
to, and the house resumed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned.

Wheat Qrs. 237 2292 4237 6765
Barley Qrs. 49 20 69
Malt Qrs. 31 1656 1687
Oats
Rye Qrs.
Beans Qrs. 75
Pease .
Shelled Barley
Indian Corn .
Rapeseed Qrs.
Oatmeal .. .. Loads 3932 229
Flow Sacks 825 820
Ditto Brls. 200

29g6 I

- ,
Into Runcorn, Ireland and Coastwise :—Wheat,
qrs. ; Oats, qrs.; Oatmeal, ids. ; Flour, sacks. qrs. ; Beans,

EXPORTS.—Foreign. Oats, 394 qrs. ; Pease, 12 qrs. ; Oatmeal,
loada ; Flour, 1231 brls.—lreland. Wheat, 7.56 qrs. ; Barley,
qrs."; Rye, qrs. ; Beans, 14 qrs. ; Indian Corn, qrs. ; Oat-
meal, 19 loads.—Coastwise. Wheat, 1776 qrs. ; Barley, 178 qrs. ;
Oats, 108 qrs. ; Malt, 422 qrs.; Pease, 6 qrs,; Oatmeal, a 6 loads;
Plour, 66 sacks 334 barrels.

Average prices of Grain, for the week ending May 3, 1841.
Wheat.. ti3s. Bd. I Barley 325. 4d. Oats.. 238. Id. Rye.. 355. Sd
Beans.. 3gs. 3d. I Pease.. 373. 10d.

Aggregate average of the six weeks

Wheat 635. 11d. Barley 325. gCI. ) Oats,

Id. 1 Rye.. 355. 61

ad. 1 Pease.. 38s. Ild

Duty on Foreign Grain, tke. this week.
Wheat 235.8 d. 1 Barley 13s. 10d. 1 Oats .. . 12s. 3d. 1 Rye.. 16s. gd
Beans 1 Is. od. 1 Pease.. 125. 6d. 1 Ind. Coral2s.lud. Flouri4s.2id

Liverpool Averages, week ending April 27, 1841.
I
Wheat. I Barley. Oats. I Beans. Pease.
Qrs 1386 895
Prices 6os. 9d. Os. od. 21s. 10d. Os. Od. Os. od

LIVERPOOL COTTON MARKET, 3, P.M.
A moderate inquiry for Cotton to-day, and the sales are
estimated at 1,000 to 1,200 bales, at yesterday's prices.