The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-11-16 00:00:00

The lint 011

said the nun

decided

The AiATOit said that this was not a time to discuss the
principles upon which the education committee should. Pro'
teed. (Cries of " Vote !")
Mr. HODGSON said if the mayor decided that he was
out
of order, he should sit down ; otherwise he should not occu•
py three minutes with his explanations.
The MAYOR.—We are not now to enter upon that sub•
ject.

Mr. A. SMITH thought that as Mr. Hodgson had been at.
tacked, and he wished only to speak in explanation, he ought
to be heard. (Hear.)
Mr. HODGSON said Mr. Sandbach had been allowed to
speak in explanation, and he thought the same privilege
ought to be extended to him. These, then, were his senti-
ments—" Resolved that the education committee is hereby
instructed that only children of the Church of England be
required to learn the church catechism"—
The MAYOR was very sorry to interrupt Mr. Hodgson,
but the council had before decided that they ought not now
enter upon the mode upon which education in the schools
should be conducted. Mr. Hodgson, however, might give
any general explanation with regard to Mr. Bolton's motion.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—If you had allowed Mr. Hodg-
son to have his own way he would have shown you speedily
how disqualified he is to be on the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGSON.--I merely wish to say—
Several members.—(Chair, chair.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Go on ; go on.
The MAYOR thought Mr. Hodgson was notauthorixed to
enter upon the subject of education.
Mr. HonosoN said he merely asked to clear his character.
The MAYOR said that in doing so he was not entitled to
enter upon the general questioh, as it had been decided that
that should not be now discussed.
Mr. Alderman HARVEY said Mr. Hodgson might move
the resolution which he had read as an instruction to the
committee.
Mr. BOLTON.---11l the langauge of the lawyers, that is my
case.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Exactly so ; that is my case, too.
Mr. MELLOR thought there was a disposition on the part
of the council to use Mr. Hodgson unfairly. Mr. Bolton
had stated his reasons for thinking Mr. Hodgson au unquali-
fied man to be upon the Education Committee; and in com-
mon fairness Mr. Hodgson ought to have an opportunity of
sheaving the council that he was qualified to be a member of
the committee.
Several members.—No, no.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Yes, yes !
The MAYOR repeated his reasons for stopping Mr. Hodgson
—that it was unnecessary to enter upon the general question.
Mr HODGSON said he was not going to make a speech
upon his view of the case.
Mr. BRIGHT Conte4d that Mr. Hodgson was about to
give his individual views. "
Mr. HODGSON thought it only jnst to Le Cqvna to reply
to the unfair attacks upon his character. He would r?gp 'f:46
up more than a few minutes.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh dear, let him do it.
Mr. HODGSON.—ShaII I read it again
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, by all means : read it

-Mr. HODGSON proceeded. " Resolved,"—he was not
proposing this as a motion, but merely reading it to show
his sentiments upon the question—" Resolved, that the Edu-
cation Committee is hereby instructed that only children of
the Church of England be required to learn the Church Cate,
chism, but that the authorised version of the Bible, to the
exclusion of every other version, and of the Irish Extracts,
be freely used in the schools, and that the schools commence
and close with prayer morning and evening." These .wete
his sentiments. If he were disqualified for entertaining
such sentiments, then he was disqualified. (Cries of "vote ".)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I wonder how any gentleman
can possibly act in the spirit of conciliation after such a de-
claration as that ?

The MAYOR.—I can allow no personal observations at all
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. BAR6LAY had heard with great regret the observa-
tions just made by Mr. Hodgsou, because he thought they
struck at the root of everything. Mr. Hodgson must be
aware that

The Mayon having observed that what Mr. liodgsou had
said was only in explanation, and need not allow further dis-
cussion npon it, said he would take the opinion of the council
whether Mr. Fates pr, Mr. Hodgson should be elected.
The council then divided; when theFe
For Mr. Hodgson .. • • i:18
For Mr. Yates
Majority for ),Ir. Hodgson ..
The following is the voting on this question :
For Mr. Hodgson.—Councillors, ,Shaw, Hinlgson, !pox
Holmes, Houghton, Sandbach, Copeland, Edwards, Barton,
Blundell, Sands, Rae, Aspinall, Toulmin, Lawrence, Robin,
son, Cooper, J. N. Wood, Birkett, Gladstone, Bushell,
Procter, Lloyd, Rigby, Kilshaw, Jones, Parker, G. H.
Lawrence, Trotman, A. Smith, junior, Harbord ; Alder-
men, Houghton, Nicol, Turner, Chilton, Bramley-Moore,
Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor-38.
For Mr. Yates.--Councillors Thornhill, Preston, H.
Holmes, Mellor, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aiken, Bright, Priest-
ley, Yates, J. Smith, Jordan, Platt, Mather—Aldermen
Holt, Bulley, Freme, Harvey, Evans, Barclay, and Earle
—22.

Absent.—Councillors Shand, IL Lawrence, Slater, and
Alderman Griffith.

Mr. NIELLon then proposed that Mr. Alderma❑ Barclay
be appointed a member of the Education Committee.
Mr. SANDS moved as an amendment that Mr. Rau be ap.
pointed.
Mr. ROBINSON seconded the motion.
Mr. Rae was elected without a division.

On the inoilon of Mr. ROBINSON, seconded by Mr.
TOULMIN, Mr. Sands was the next elected on the commit-
tee. _

Mr. jIRKLTT moved, and Mr. Totamtx seconded Mr.
Harbord as a it 40 proper person to serve ott the commit-
tee.

---Mr. Alderman EARLE propose g aingutlrnent Mr.
John Buck Lloyd in opposition to Ir. Harbqr4."
Mr. JORDAN seconded the amendment.
Mr. LLoyD, as his naTe had been proposed, begged tg
say that he would not shrink from any, duty that might be
rHarbord's name having been
) must express his desire that no
pi p oosseedd
,uhpeo nolh ,r. Lbi
ouyt d r.
friendop of his would vote for him in opposition to one who bad
taken so much interest in the education question. He would
just observe, as to the formation of the committee, that if
gentlemen had not interrupted it in the beginning, they
would have found that there would have been a fair propor-
tion of those denominations who differ upon religious sub-
jects—whieh was perfectly right and just towards 'every cons-

tools to attepq

o, and if thelaiier.nuiiber were appointed, those who did
it duty, would find a great deal to do.
ber was the first point to be

Mr. SANDS seconded the motion.
Mr. BOLTON moved, as an amendment, that the committee
be constituted of 15, on the ground that as there were two
schools to be attended to. 13 would be insufficient.

Mr. PLATT tecoaded the amendment on the same grounds.
Mr. PRIESTLY had attended the committee for some years,
and must say, that at times, it had been found very hard to
get a committee together. Fifteen was as few as there wel
could be, considering that they were divided into two sub-
committees.

Mr. SANDS had no objection to 15 being the number, but
it bad been thought more convenient to have only 13. Mr.
Evans and Mr. Aiken thought 8 were sufficient.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—I have never given an opinion
upon the subject.
Mr. SANDS said a few words of explanation, which we were
unable to hear.
Mr. BOLTON then proposed, and Mr. BUSHELL seconded,
a motion that Mr. Sandbach be appointed on the committee.
Mr. SANDBACH said he was anxious to have an opportu-
nity of saying a few words on this subject on account of the
undue importance attached to what had fallen from him upon
a former occasion, and the inferences drawn from it. It had
been inferred from what he said that there existed among the
conservative members of the council a difference of opinion
as to the principles upon which the schools were to be con-
ducted. He confessed that the idea flashed across his 'mind
at that time, that there was an intention of proposing some
measures so exclusive or so extreme that he could not ap-
prove of it, and he should feel hound to oppose it. He was
now, however, better informed, and he was happy to say
there was no intention of proposing any such measure, or any
measure in which he did not frankly and cordially concur,
and which he would not support by every means in his power.
He trusted that when the council heard what was intended
to be done, they would all see they had been entirely mis-
taken in supposing that any such extreme measures were in
contemplation. The two points which, as he understood,
were intended to be insisted upon, were points of principle—
The MAYOR was sorry to interrupt Mr. Sandbach, but he
had before said that the council could not now go into that
subject.
Mr. SANDBACH bowed to the decision of the chair, and
would not further trespass upon those points. At the
same time he must be allowed to say, that he did not re-
gret the course he had pursued, nor had he any apology to
offer to the council for having taken the ground he had
upon a former occasion. He admitted the propriety
or toe combination of parties, for the sake of asserting and
maintaining great principles ; but he distinctly repudiated
the doctrine _that individual opinion was not to be expressed.
He shou/d not submit to be so under the iron control of party
as not to be at liberty to express an independent opinion ;
but at the same time he claimed that liberty for himself he
acknowledged the obligation, and trusted, upon this occasion
especially, that every gentleman of the council wouid care-
fully avoid any expression that could give needless offence,
especially to the Roman Catholic part of the people. (Heal-,
hear.) He confessed it was with him, and he knew it was
with many others also,—he thought lie might say, with the
town at large—an object of intense anxiety that the Roman
Catholic part of the population, in common with the rest,
should send their children, and give to them scriptural educa-
tion that was there offerel to them without—. He did
not wish to get into the subject ; he wished simply to say
that he hoped every person would avoid every expression that
might give needless offence to the Roman Catholics, or tend
to prevent them from sending their children to the schools,
which he most earnestly desired they should do.
Mr. Sandbach's name was then carried, as were the names
of Mr. Edmund Molyneux, Mr. Alexander Smith, jun., Mr.
Chilton, Mr. R. S. Crook, Mr. Priestley, and Mr. R. Glad-
stone.

Mr. BRIGHT said, as it was professed by the gentlemen on
the opposite side that they meant to deal fairly and impar-
tially with the schools, he hoped they would carry out the
principle, and allow the committee to be constituted of 15
members. This would allow 7 of one party and 8 of the
other.

Mr. SANDS was surprised that such a remark or suggestion
shonld have been made. If the gentleman opposite would
go back to the proceedings of two years ago, he would find
that the members of the committee then proposed were all of
one side. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY said that was hardly a fair ob-
servation upon the part of Mr. Sands. They were very
anxious on that occasion that some from the other side should
come into the committee, but they would not. (Hear.)
Mr. SANDS was much obliged to Mr. Barclay for putting
him right whenever he was wrong ; but he could tell him that
Mr. Blackburne, in a speech two years ago, stated .that
The MAYOR called Mr. Sands to order. This subject
would not bear excitement ; and bye gone transactions need
not be referred to.

Mr. SANDS would avoid going into a discussion of that
subject, in obedience to the chair. He would go on with
moving the committee, and leave the committee itself to see
the working of the schools.
Mr. Bulley and Mr. Platt were then elected members of
the committee.

Mr. Alderman BARCLA.Y said be should be very glad to
have Mr. Yates upon the committee. (Cries of " No, no.'')
Mr. G. H. Lawrence and Mr. Alderman Houghton were
then appointed members.

Mr. Hodgson 's name being next proposed,
Mr. BOLTON said he must oppose the nomination of Mr.
Hodgson. He was so strongly prejudiced against, and so
uncharitable towards, those who differed from him in religi-
ous opinions, and particularly towards the Roman Catholics,
that in his (Mr. Bolton's) opinion—and he expressed it
boldly—he was a very unfit man to be put upon the educa-
tion committee.

Mr. Alderman EARLE begged to second Mr. Bolton, if be
proposed some other gentleman • he did not care who it was.
Mr. BOLTON proposed that dr. R. V. Yates be appointed
in place of Mr. Hodgson.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I second it.
Mr. HODGSON said if the amendment had been proposed
without comment he should not have said one word; but
when a personal attack was made upon him he must be al-
lowed to state very briefly what were his sentiments on this
subject.