The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-03-13 00:00:00

ranee that the Protestants of England would stand by them
to the last. (Renewed cheers.) And should that arch de-
magogue, as he had threatened, bring his five hundred thou-
sand fighting men—(immense uproar commenced by Langan
and continued by the whigs.)
The Mayor again appealed to the meeting to keep order.
He did not conceive their case so weak as to oblige them to
put him down by clamour.
Mr. HORSFALL continued—But what was more, it would
convey a word of comfort to the Protestants of Ireland with
the assurance that should the arch demagogue of Ireland
bring his five hundred thousand ribbonmen, as he threatened,
—(hisses and cheers),—the Protestants of England would
stand by them to the last—they would fight with them in the
last battle, and die with them in the last ditch. (Immense
applause mingled with some disapprobation from the whigs.)
Mr. SHEPHERD said they had heard many speeches tcr-day
upon the subject of Irish municipal corporations ; and he
agreed with the mayor that a calm dispassionate discussion
Would best suit this case. (Hear.) There were many opi-
nions upon it. We had heard several to-day ; and as there
probably were many Roman Catholics in that assembly, it
would be pleasing to them and satisfactory to the meeting,
if he read the opinion of a very excellent Roman Catholic
gentleman, a man of large property, in the county of Wex-
ford, on the workings of this bill if passed into a law. He
would afterwards read extracts from a Protestant individual
of high talent, showing his opinions, and the meeting in their
discretion might adopt that which they thought best.
Mr. BOLTON.—Give us the substance of it.
Mr. SHEPHERD.—No, I must go through it entirely.
The MAYOR.—Are the notes long ?
Mr. SHEPHERD.—Not very long sir. These are from a
man who received the thanks of the Catholic Association,
and who is possessed of very large estates.
The MAYOR.—Are your notes long?
Mr. SHEPHERD.—Not very long.
The MAYOR.—Be pleased to take up as little time as you
possibly can, for this is a meeting for public discussion, and
not to read books or extracts.
Mr. SHEPHERD.—We were brought here to adduce evi-
dence for and against the question; and as the impartial
chief magistrate of Liverpool, we believed when we came
here, and we still believe that you would act patiently and
impartially. (Hear, hear.)
The MAYOR.—When you find me acting otherwise than
patiently and impartially, it will then be time enough to call
me to order. (Cheers.)
Mr. SHEPHERD.—Mr. Mayor, I did not call you to order;
far front it. I said you would act impartially ; that you came
there impartially, and that I believe you will act impartially.
(Cheers.)
Mr. ROBINSON.—I must say Mr. Mayor that I thought
Mr. Shepherd rather paid you a compliment than otherwise.
The MAYOR.—I did not take it as such but lam glad to
•
find it is so.
Mr. SHEPHERD then proceeded to read the following
document :

" A Petition from James Edward Devereux, of Carigme-
nan, in the county of Wexford, Esq., against the Ministerial
Irish Municipal Corporation Bill presented to the House by
Lord Lyndhurst.—The prayer of the petition is, that their
lordships would take into their serious consideration the
arguments adduced by the petitioner, and that they would
` reject the Irish Corporation Bill.' As Mr. Devereux is a
staunch Roman Catholic; as he was one of the five delegates
who, on the 3d of January, 1793, presented the petition of
the Catholics of Ireland to Geo. 111. ; and as his whole life
has been devoted to forwarding the real and substantial inte-
rests of his Catholic brethren ;—his statement ought to have
considerable weight with the respectable part of the Catholic
body in Ireland. In thus openly laying his sentiments before
the Legislature, and thereby exposing himself to the full tide
of party malice and obloquy, he can have no sinister object
in view, he can have had but one cause to serve, that of truth
and justice. To prove that he has been long considered
worthy of the esteem and confidence of the Roman. Catholics
of Ireland, the petitioner sets out with stating the fact, that
he had repeatedly received the thanks of the Catholics of the
towns of Wexford and New Ross, and, through their ge-
neral committee, the thanks upon several occasions of the
Catholics of Ireland ; which general committee presented
him with a piece of plate of the value of one hundred guineas.
The petitioner observes, that the bill against which he raises
his voice is only calculated to place the Catholics of Ireland
under the absolute dominion of an unprincipled faction,
composed of the Irish Catholic members of the House of
Commons, who, forming one head and one body, have, as it
were, repudiated all individuality ;' and, therefore, he thinks
that he had a right to ` consider the act of any one member
of that body as the act of the whole.' The bill would, he
contends, in the first place, give all the civil power to the
faction ;' and the civil power having at its disposal
the military power under various circumstances, it
must follow as a necessary result that the faction
would enjoy absolute dominion.' These charges the pe-
titioner states are not new. They were made by him
years before the Irish Corporation Bill was brought forward,
or even thought of; and he alludes to a variety of letters and
pamphlets published by him on the subject in the years 1831,
1832, and 1833. The petitioner attributes the misfortunes of
Ireland, for six hundred years, to the melancholy truth that
it had, during all that period, been governed by faction ; and
he adds, that the people gladly consented to the Legisla-
tive Union, in the hope that under its beneficial influence the
reign of faction would cease, and that Ireland would be
henceforward governed only by the Imperial Parliament.'
That hope, however, was unfortunately disappointed. The
petitioner describes what, in his opinion, would be the pro-
bable effect of these annual municipal elections. The peo-
ple,' he says, ' would be kept in a state of permanent ex-
citement ; for in each town two parties would immediately be
formed—not a Catholic and a Protestant party, (no, thank
God, that is now over,) but two Catholic parties hating one
another most cordially : the one, the party of the pretended
Catholic faction, with its servile tail ; and the other, the party
of independent Catholics of all ranks, which, of course, the
Protestants, abhorring hypocrisy, would join.' The peti-
tioner then refers to the peaceful situation in which many of
the towns in Ireland are at this moment placed, and argues
that if the new corporate system were allowed, that peace
could not long continue; since the father of the bill had dis-
tinctly declared, That these corporations are to be normal
schools (not of peace, but) of agitation.' The petitioner justly
infers from this declaration that the baneful fruits of these
corporation struggles would be political strife and rancour
and hatred I The most respectable citizens would, no
doubt, be at first elected, but that would not long satisfy the
incendiary or pretended Catholic faction formed in those
towns, in consequence of the new democratic system of election,
out of a people who had become from what was most docile,
what was most ungovernable, by the facilities which the new
system afforded to the intrigues of agitators, all the manoeu-
vres of the demagogues would, be aimed at every man in the
town who presumed to think for himself; respectable citi-
zens would soon be wearied out by the attacks of the fac-
tion ; they would renounce all functions, and these functions
would be instantly occupied by scamps of the pretended Ca-
tholic faction. Having thus ousted the worthy out of all
authority, they would then trample upon them at their
leisure. The worthy tradesman, merchant, shopkeeper,
mechanic, or labourer, who would have a will of his
own, would be persecuted without mercy, threatened with
exclusive dealing, with a death's head and cross-bones,
&c., and compelled to yield to the very dregs of soci-
ety, so that thos3 towns would soon become pandeino-
niums under demoniac rulers ; a constant goading opposition
would be created, and it would be sufficient that the virtuous
and worthy citizens of all degrees should pursue one line of
conduct, to excite vexatious persecutions from the other
party.'—Such is the picture drawn by an Irish Roman Ca-
tholic of a very ancient house, by one who for many years
laboured in the Roman Catholic cause, whose opinions are
not the offspring of self-interest or disappointed ambition,
and which, therefore, deserve the serious consideration of
such of his fellow-countrymen as are not irrevocably bound
to O'Connell and his faction.' "

[During the reading of the early portions of this document
Mr. Rathbone contended that it was out of order, and on
the question being put the meeting confirmed him. We
have given the document, however, as we conceive it im-
portant to Mr. Shepherd's argument.]
Mr. SHEPHERD proceeded to state that the -Roman
Catholics of Galway and Clonmel were against the measure.
(No, no.) He stood there as an Irishman; he respected
his Roman Catholic countrymen' but he could not consent
to give the cold shoulder to his Protestant countrymen
because they were Protestants. He was as nearly connected
with Ireland, in family connection and estates, as any one
present, and he had never done any act hostile to the inter-
ests of his country. (Hear.) But he claimed from that
meeting the right to discuss fairly, quietly, and dispassion-
ately, the merits of this all-important case. He agreed with
many in that meeting that Sir Robert Peel had acted very
erroneously upon it. The bill had been before the House of
Commons : 243 voted for the abolition of the corporations,
and a majority of the House of Commons also voted for their
abolition. What then was to be done ? Why either to
abolish or reform them ; and he would say, in the sincerity
of his heart, that he hoped the House of Lords would make
it such a bill as would put an end to all party strife and feuds,
and one that would protect Protestants, whilst giving equal
and honest justice to the Roman catholics. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MURRAY, an operative, made a long speech in favour
of the motion, in the course of which he replied to a few re-
marks of those who opposed it. He was much cheered by
his own party.
The MAYOR then put the motion, and it was carried.
Mr. ROSSON, in moving the next resolution, took occasion
to extol Lord Durham's official report on the Canadas as a
model of wisdom, and descanted on the principle of self
local government therein asserted. He contended that this
question should not be argued on religious or sectarian
grounds, but that it was a question of pure constitutional
liberty. He concluded a conciliatory speech, which was
considerably applauded, by moving the resolution.
Mr. VINCENT HIGGINS seconded the motion.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES next addressed the meeting amidst
some confusion and occasional interruption, against the
motion.

The MAYOR put it, and it was carried.
Mr. BOLTON moved the next resolution, declaring the
right of Ireland to justice. He contended that as England and
Scotland had had the benefit of municipal reform it was most
unjust to deny it to Ireland, and that the arguments of its
opponents, by making it a religious question, were based
upon a false foundation.

Mr. SHELL in seconding the motion, ridiculed the idea of
corporate reform being likely to ruinthe Protestant esta-
blishment. He contended that reform was absolutely ne-
cessary, and declared that in one instance in Liverpool votes
for the mayoralty had openly been bought and sold.
The MAYoR called the speaker to order.
Mr. SLIM said he was speaking of the old corporation ;
not of the men but of the system. He had himself seen the
practice, and he was greatly astonished to find it in a country
that pretended to freedom.
Mr. ROBINSON.—AII I have to say is this—if Mr. Sheil
alludes to me, I declare upon my honour that no man can
say I ever gave a shilling.
Mr. SHELL had merely alluded to the facts, and to the
contest between Mr. Porter and Mr. Robinson, and be
should constantly expose it.
Mr. RowNsoN.—l can say this individually, I had no-
thing to do with it.
Mr. SHIEL.—Now for Mr. Horsfall. Mr. Horsfall was a
man that professed extreme religious opinions, and said the
corporations of Ireland were the root of the Protestant insti-
tutions.
Mr. HORSFALL.—What I said implied they were a great
support.
Mr. SHIEL contended that his version of the expression
was correct. Mr. Horsfall had said, whatever might be the
decision of this meeting, he should not take it as the acknow-
ledged voice of the inhabitants of Liverpool. He (Mr.
Shiel) was glad to hear that declaration; and he should wish
to ask when did Mr. Horsfall ever meet them in Clayton-
,square ? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HORSFALL.—A question has been distinctly put,
which I will distinctly meet. (Cheers.) I will meet Mr.
Sheil there to-morrow, if he wishes. (Renewed cheering.)
Mr. SHEIL.—The question I asked was when did Mr.
Horsfall ever dare to do it. He tells me he is willing to
meet me there.
Mr. HORSFALL.—The proposition has been repeated in
another form. Never since I took any interest in the
tn
dis-
cussions in this town has a meeting been called iu Cl
verYleond
sqnare by the authorities. (Cheers.)
weillornaeny other
myself to attend meetings called by
man
mayoril
ofC Clayton-square,
Liverpool.n-s I" latotheeh(eMerrs..)SM.hreil)Shfills that chair as
g 14n
ort.
HoMrsriall
Square, and therefore he never
th Ea
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stated t hhies
nevermatte rhwedas
egtettetemdgedtooeepyermsoeneatli.n
called by the mayor in
the mayor was not
hpraedsesnpot.ken(Cartiaensyefpliplilicet!thi
ttilonigsaatywshoi.°)
Mmvarri:
sum,. iinHgonaesirseA.LL made some remark which we lost in the
repeated that this discussion was becoming too
pre
and after a few more observations he concluded by
personal,
seconding the motion.