The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-11-16 00:00:00

terday for the purposeofproceeding with the aupoil tu:ent
of the remaining committees. The MAYOR presided.

The adjour

usull bu-

ADDRESS TO THE QUEEN
Mr. SANDS said, before they proceeded with tl
siness there was one subject which ought, and he was sure
would, by the unanimous consent of the council, have prece-
dence. over every other. That subject was one of very great
importance, one involving not only the interests of this town
and of the British empire, but one in which he must venture
to say the whole world was interested. It was a subject
upon which, as Englishmen, they felt very deep interest, and
on which all could unite. Here there were no jarring

strings; here they felt themselves upon common ground,
desirous only to express their loyal attachment to the throne
and the constitution, and he would say their humble gratf-
tude to Almighty God, for having preserved her Majesty
upon the occasion to which he adverted. He was quite sure
that they would all be most ready and most happy to offer to
her Majesty their hearty congratulations upon the birth of a
Prince and heir apparent to the throne of these realms. He
therefore begged to propose the following resolution:---" That
a dutiful and loyal address be presented to her Majesty, and
also an address to his royal highness Prince Albert, and her
royal highness the Duchess of Kent, upon the joyful occasion
of the birth of a Prince and heir apparent to the throne of
these realms," and that a committee be appointed to prepare
the address.
Mr. JOHN HOLMES seconded the motion. _

On the motion of Mr. BUSHELL, seconded by Mr. Noe-
TER, a committee was appointed to prepare the addresses.
The following. are the gentlemen of the committee :—the
Mayor, Mr. Sands, Mr. John Holmes, Mr. John B. Lloyd,
and Mr. Robertson Gladstone.

It was next resolved, on the motion of Mr. JAMES Law-
RENCE, and seconded by Mr. JOHN SMITH, that a deputa-
tion, consisting of the Mayor, Mr. Sands, and Mr. John
Holmes should proceed with the addresses to London, for
the purpose of presenting them.

APPOINTMENT OF THE EDUCATION COMMITTED

Mr. Alderman EastLz supposed the council would now go
on with the business of the day, the first of which was the
appointment of the Education Committee. Tne gentlemen
who undertook to form the Education Committee when last
the council met, notwithstanding the advantages they bad of
previous consultation and deliberation failed in their attempt,
for they had not even satisfied their own friends, much less
those that were opposed to them on this question. He was
aware that the subject was not without its difficulties. It
was a very important one, and the most important that could
come before them ; and he thought there could be little
doubt of its'being settled in a manner that would satisfy all
reasonable parties if it were referred to the consideration of
men of deliberate judgments and good sound sense. He had
the honour of belonging to the Education Committee for a
considerable time, and he had taken a very lively interest in
the schools. The lower orders in Liverpool, he thought, had
derived immense benefit from them, particularly that portion
of the community which had most need of them. The bro-
therly kindness and the total absence of all discord upon reli-
gious principles from religious motives which had existed
among the schools, was a very pleasing feature, and he attri-
buted it to the system which had been adopted. He must
appeal to many gentlemen who were upon the committee
last year to say whether there was not a great deal too much
good done in the schools to induce them to do anything that
would injure their general utility ; that they would rather be
disposed to adopt measures which a spirit of mutual concilia-
tion would naturally suggest. Those schools, like the agita-
tion of the poor-law and the protestant association, had
been used as a political machine for the purpose of raising
certain parties into power. He did not, however, com-
plain of that, as many people thought all that was
justified in political warfare. It now appeared that the leader
of the tories did not choose to wield these weapons any
longer, as they might become dangerous to the party. In
justification of this assertion he would only appeal to the
Times—and he was sure his friends upon the opposite
benches could not reasonably object to such an authority—
which said, or from its language one might calculate, that
those who harangued at such meetings were little better than
crazy-pated fanatics, hardly fit to be at liberty without a
keeper, and the advocates of measures totally at variance
with common sense. It must always be borne in mind that
these schools, and all the property of the corporation, be-
longed to the public at large, and that they were to be used
for the benefit of the public without any reference whatever
to religious creed. The act of parliament under which the
council met, recognised that principle to the fullest extent.
They were shorn of all their church patronage ; and from
that circumstance he held it was quite clear that the legisla-
ture never, intended the corporate funds to be applied to the
benefit of any particular community. He should propose to
the consideration of the council a certain number of gentle-
men who, he thought, would form a very good committee
of education. He hoped that those gentlemen who might
be named would not offer excuses for not attending or for
not accepting the appointment. He was aware that there
were many who had valid reasons, upon account of their
various occupations to wish to be off the committee, but he
would suggest the expediency of the council allowing those
gentlemen to retire from it and others be substituted, as soon
as the knotty points of the question had been settled to the
satisfaction of all parties. He had purposely omitted some
names upon his list upon account of the particular line of
conduct they had taken. Some of those who were very fre-
quently in the habit of referring to the scriptures, he would
remind them that there was a passage to be found there
which said, " Blame not before thou hast examined the
truth; understand first and then rebuke." (Hear, and cries
of " question,") Now he had heard a great deal of rebuke,
but he had never yet heard that any of the gentlemen who
were loudest in their complaints against the schools, ever
went into those schools, and there understood and examined
the truth. (Hear, hear.) They had, upon various occasions,
broached opinions that rendered them disqualified entirely
from acting upon the committee, even supposing they pos-
sessed in other respects competency for the task—a question
which he by no means admitted. When a wound was in a
healing state, and showed a disposition to close, he thought
it was unsound practice to apply perpetual blisters to it; he
therefore hoped, as this wound seemed to be in a way of
healing, the council would adopt conciliatory and healing
measures. The committee he should propose was—Mr. H.
R. Sandbach, Mr. T. Sands, Mr. 11. Gladstone, Mr. C.
Bushell, Mr. G. H. Lawrence, Mr. A. Smith, jun., Mr.
Alderman Nicol, Mr. J. Bramley Moore, Mr.. R. S. Crook,
Mr. J. H. Turner,—ten all upon one side, and Mr. J. Mel-
lor, Mr. T. Bolton, Mr. J. Aikin, Mr. Alderman Evans,
and Mr. T. B. Barclay.

Mr. HODGSON subinitted that Mr. Earle was proceeding
irregularly. Mr. Sandbach had moved the adjournment of
the council, and therefore he was entitled to the possession
of the chair.

The MAYOR said, as this was an adjourned meeting, Mr
Sandbach was in possession of the chair,

Mr. SANDBACH quite agreed that he was in possession
but he had no wish whatever to interfere with his friend Mr
Alderman Earle.

Mr. BOLTON contended that Mr. Sandbach must go on.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said, he should not have opened
the debate had he not had the opinion of the Town-clerk
that he was competent to do so.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the adjournment was one of the
council, and therefore any member was at liberty to com-
mence. If the adjournment had been one of the debate
only, then the member must take up the subject who had
moved the adjournment.
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—That is exactly so. I knew I
-was right.
Mr. BRIGHT should not have risen on this occasion were
it not that he felt deeply interested in the continuation of the
present system. A strong clamour had been raised against
it at one period, but it had gradually subsided, till latterly
we had scarcely heard anything of it. (Hear.) We ought
to bear in mind, that by several acts of parliament, passed
not very long since, the old spirit of exclusiveism had been
abolished. The Test and Corporation Act had been repealed;
and others had subsequently passed giving to all persons—
without exception, without distinction of creed or opinion—
equal rights and equal privileges. They had the schools
upon their hands when the council was first formed, and the
Question was, how could they best apply the funds of the
Corporation to the continuation of a system of education
adapted to the equal rights of all. (Hear.) It was a diffi-
cult question undoubtedly ; and after great deliberation, a
system had been devised that had won its way by the opinion
of the public, and which, with little exception, became, he
might say, a popular system. It was admirably adapted to
meet the wants and the requirements of all. From what he
had seen of it, he believed that there were at this moment
few who discredited or inclined to doubt the proper use of
the Bible in the schools. That was first of all discovered—
The MAYOR, with all due deference to Mr. Bright, thought
that the immediate subject of discussion was not the manage-
ment of the schools, but the appointment of a committee.
The council at present had nothing to do with the mode of
management adopted.
Mr. BRIGHT was strictly confining himself to the motion
intiociuced by Mr. Earle, but if he was out of order, he
should bow to the decision of the chair.
The MAYOR repeated, that the appointment of the com-
mittee was the subject under consideration. When the in-
structions to the committee were read it would be competent
in Mr. Bright to speak on the points to which he referred.
Mr. BRIGHT said, the object in proposing a list of gentle-
men entertaining moderate opinions was, that the system now
pursued in the schools might have fair and proper considera-
tion. He certainly viewed with considerable jealousy the
list proposed by Mr. Sands at the last meeting. In that list
he found the indication of a certain line of conduct to which
he could not, by any means, agree ; it indicated, from the
previously expressed opinions of the gentlemen upon it, what
would be the course of a committee so constituted. He
therefore felt a strong desire, havinc, been named upon it, to
have the name of some other gentleman substituted, whose
opinions might be more accordant with those of the majority
so proposed. He would not detain the council further than
to say, that he cordially concurred in the motion of Mr. Al-
derman Earle.

Mr. SANDBACH rose, but gave way to
Mr. SANDS, who said he should move an amendment to
the motion proposed by Mr. Earle—
Mr. BOLTON would interrupt Mr. Sands just to suggest
that each name should be put separately, and that any objec-
tion to each so proposed, should also be separately discussed.
(Cries of " No, no.")
The MAYOR said the entire list must be read first.

Mr. Alderman EAILE.—To brie; the matter to a point,
I rise to move that Mr. Sandbach be appointed a member of
the Education Committee.

Mr. BoLTo:sr.—l second the motion.
Mr. PROCTER thought that Mr. Sands's list should be read
as well as Mr. Earle's.

Mr. SANDS said, he was quite in the hands of the council.
He had a list to propose, which he would read if permitted.
The MAYOR said, that as Mr. Alderman Earle had read
his list, Mr. Sands ought to read his ; and that it would be
much better to propose the names seriatim.
Mr. COOPER called for Mr. Sands's list to be read, to en-
able the council to choose the best names.
Mr. SANDS having observed that there were many names
upon his list which were also upon Mr. Earle's, read the
following.—Mr. Molyneux;Mr. A. Smith, junior, Mr. Chil-
ton, Mr. Crook, Mr. Priestley, Mr. Bulley, Mr. Gladstone,
Mr. Platt, Mr. Sandbach, Mi. G. H. Lawrence, Mr. Alder-
man Houghton, Mr. Hodgson, and Mr. Sands. Of these,
seven were churchmen, and the restof various denominations.
There were ten conservatives, and the rest were liberals—
Mr. JORDAN.—Very liberal !
Mr. PLATT observed that 13 names bad been read, whereas
the former committee consisted of 15.
Mr. Alderman EARLE—I thought the former committee
was constituted of 15 memmbers. _ _ _

Mr. SANDS continued, that the list he had read consisted
of seven Churchmen, two Wesleyan methodists—which was
the same thing, and four dissenters. The committee was
originally composed of 15 or 16, but that number was
thought too large.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY.—Have you any objection to
seven of one description, two of another, and four of a third?
(Cries of no, no.)
Mr. BOLTON said, Mr. Alderman Earle had proposed the
first list, which he, (Mr. Bolton,) seconded. He did not,
however, care what names were upon the list, but he did
contend that each name must be proposed and seconded
separately. Let Mr. Earle propose his name, and then Mr.
Sands might move his by the way of amendment.
Mr. SANDS—Very well : I am content.
The MAYOR said, that when Mr. Earle had moved one
name, Mr. Sands might move another as an amendment!
Mr. HODGSON observed that amendments were always put
the first from the chair. Mr. Sands had moved one, and,
therefore, he was in possession of the chair.
The MAYOR said this was perfectly understood.
Mr. Alderman EARLE asked by what authority the com-
mittee was reduced from 15 to 13? He begged leave to state

that 15 Vr
to, and if

'ere not too many. Tt

were two schools to attend
appointed, those who did

their duty, would find a great deal to do
The MAYOR said the number was

decided

Mr. ISAAC HOLMES moved that t

the first point to be

committee do consist

Mr. SANDS seconded the motion.
Mr. BOLTON moved, asan amendment. that the committee
he constituted of 15, on the ground that as there were two
schools to be attended to, 13 would he insufficient.
Mr. PLATT seconded the amendment on the same grounds.
Mr. PRIESTLY had attended the committee for someyears,

get a committee t

-could be, considering

ier:' Fifteen was as few as there wei
that they were divided into two sub-

Mr. SANDS had no objection to 15 being the number, but
it had• been thought more convenient to have only 13. Mr.
Evans and Mr. Aiken thought 8 were sufficient.
Mr. Alderman EvANs.—l have never given an opinion
upon the subject.
Mr. SANDS said a few words of explanation, which we were
unable to hear. _ _

Mr. BOLTON then proposed, and Mr. BusnELL seconded,
a motion that Mr. Sandbach be appointed on the committee.
Mr. SANDOACH said he was anxious to have an opportu-
nity of saying a few words on this subject on account of the
undue importance attached to what had fallen from him upon
a former occasion, and the inferences drawn from it. It had
been inferred from what he said that there existed among the
conservative members of the council a difference of opinion
as to the principles upon which the schools were to be con-
ducted. He confessed that the idea flashed across his mind
at that time, that there was an intention of proposing some
measures so exclusive or so extreme that he could not ap-
prove of it, and he should feel bound to oppose it. He was
now, however, better informed, and he was happy to say
there was no intention of proposing any such measure, or any
measure in which he did not frankly and cordially concur,
• and which be would not support by every means in his power.
He trusted that when the council heard what was intended
to be done, they would all see they had been entirely mis-
taken in supposing that any such extreme measures were in
contemplation. The two points which, as be understood,
were intended to be insisted upon, were points of principle—
The MAYOR was sorry to interrupt Mr. Sandbach, but he
had before said that the council could not now go into that
subject. _ _ _ _

Mr. SANDBACII bowed to the decision of the chair, and
would not further trespass upon those points. At the
same time he must be allowed to say, that he did not re-
gret the course he had pursued, nor had he any apology to
offer to the council for having taken the ground he had
done upon a former occasion. He admitted the propriety
of 11,. combination of parties, for the sake of asserting and
maiataining great principles; but he distinctly repudiated
the doctrine that individual opinion was not to be expressed.
He should nut- submit to be so under the iron control of party
as not to be at liberty to express an independent opinion ;
but at the same time he claimed that liberty for himself he

acknowledged the obligation, ind trusted, upon this occasion
especially, that every gentleman of the council wouid care-
fully avoid any expression that could give needless offence,
especially to the Roman Catholic part of the people. (Hear,
bear.) He confessed it was with him, and he knew it was
with many others also,—he thought he might say, with the
town at large—an object of intense anxiety that the Roman
Catholic part of the population, in common with the rest,
should send their children, and give to them scriptural educa-
tion that was there offerel to them without—. He did
not wish to get into the subject ; 'he wished simply to say
that he hoped every person would avoid every expression that
might give needless offence to the Roman Catholics, or tend
to prevent them from sending their children to the schools,
which he most earnestly desired they should do.
Mr. Sandbach's name was then carried, as were the names
of Mr. Edmund Molyneux, Mr. Alexander Smith, jun., Mr.
Chilton, Mr. R. S. Crook, Mr. Priestley, and Mr. R. Glad-
stone.

Mr. BRIGHT said, as it was professed by the gentlemen on
the opposite side that they meant to deal fairly and impar-
tially with the schools, he hoped they would carry out the
principle, and allow the committee to be constituted of 15
members. This would allow 7 of one party and 8 of the
other.

Mr. SANDS was surprised that such a remark or suggestion
should have been made. If the gentleman opposite would
go back to the proceedings of two years ago, he would find
that the members of the committee then proposed were all of
one side. (Hear, hear, hear.) _ _ _

Mr. Alderman BARCLAY said that was hardly a fair ob-
servation upon the part of Mr. Sands. They were very
anxious on that occasion that some from the other side should
come into the committee, but they would not. (Hear.)
Mr. SANDS was much obliged to Mr. Barclay for putting
him right whenever he was wrong ; but he could tell him that
Mr. Blackburne, in a speech two years ago, stated that-
The MAYOR called Mr. Sands to order. This subject
would not bear excitement ; and bye gone transactions need
not be referred to.

Mr. SANDS would avoid going into a discussion of that
subject, in obedience to the chair. He would go on with
moving the committee, and leave the committee itself to see
the working of the schools.

Mr. Bulrey and Mr. Platt were then elected members of
the committee.

Mr. Alderman BARCLAY said he should be very glad to
have Mr. Yates upon the committee. (Cries of " No, no.”)
Mr. G. H. Lawrence and Mr. Alderman Houghton were
then appointed members.
Mr. Hodgson's name being next proposed,
_ _ _ _

Mr. BOLT-ON said he must-oppose the nomination of Mr.
Hodgson. He was so strongly prejudiced against, and so
uncharitable towards, those who differed from him in religi-
ous opinions, and particularly towards the Roman Catholics.
that in his (Mr. Bolton's) opinion—and he expressed it
boldly—he was a very unfit man to be put upon the educa-
tion committee.

Mr. Alderman EARLE begged to second Mr. Bolton, if he
proposed soine other gentleman ; he did not care who it was.
Mr. BOLTON proposed that Mr. R. V. Yates be appointed
in place of Mr. Hodgson
Mr. Alderman EARLE

—I second it

Mr. HODGSON said if the amendment had been proposed
without comment he should not have said one word; but
when a personal attack was made upon him he must be al-
lowed to state very briefly what were his sentiments on this
subject.
The MAYOR said that this was not a time to discuss the
principles upon. which the education committee should pro-
ceed. (Cries of " Vote I")
Mr. HODGSON said if the mayor decided that he was out
of order, he should sit down ; otherwise he should not Goon-
py three minutes with his explanations.
The MAYOR.—We are not now to enter upon that sub-
ject.

Mr. A. SMITH thought that as Mr. Hodgson had been at-
tacked, and he wished only to speak in explanation, he ought
to be heard. (Hear.)
Mr. HODGSON said Mr. Sandbach had been allowed to
speak in explanation, and he thought the same privilege
ought to he extended to him. These, then, were his senti-
ments—" Resolved that the education committee is hereby
instructed that only children of the Church of England be
required to learn the church catechism"—
The MAvor was very sorry to interrupt Mr. Hodgson,
but the council had before decided that they ought not now
enter upon the mode upon which education in the schools
should be conducted. Mr. Hodgson, however, might give
any general explanation with regard to Mr. Bolton's motion.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—If you had allowed Mr. Hodg-
son to have his own way he would have shown you speedily
how disqualified he is to be on the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGSON.--I merely wish to say—
Several members.—(Chair, chair.)

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Go on ; go on.
The MAYOR thought Mr. Hodgson was not authorized to
enter upon the subject of education.
Mr. II ODGSON said he merely asked to clear his character.

The MAYOR said that in doing so he was not entitled to
enter upon the general question, as it had been decided that
that should not be now discussed.

Mr. Alderman HARVEY said Mr. Hodgson might move
the resolution which he had read as an instruction to the
committee.

Mr. BOLTON.—In the langauge of the lawyers, that is my
case.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Exactly so ; that is my case, too.
Mr. MELLOR thought there was a disposition on the part
of the council to use Mr. Hodgson unfairly. Mr. Bolton
had stated his reasons for thinking Mr. Hodgson an unquali-
fied man to be upon the Education Committee; and in com-
mon fairness Mr. Hodgson ought to have an opportunity of
sheaving the council that he was qualified to be a member of
the committee.
Several members.—No, no.
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—Yes, yes!

The MAYOR repeated his reasons for stopping Mr. Hodgson
—that it was unnecessary to enter upon the general question.
Mr HODGSON said he was not going to make a speech
upon his view of the case.

Mr. BRIGHT contended that Mr. Hodgson was about to
give his individual views.

Mr. HODGSON thought it only just to be allowed to reply
to the unfair attacks upon his character. He would not take
up more than a few minutes.
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—Oh dear, let him do it.
Mr. HODGSON.—ShaII I read it again ?
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, by all means : read it

again.
Mr. HODGSON proceeded. " Resolved,"—he was not
proposing this as a motion, but merely reading it to show
his sentiments upon the question—" Resolved, that the Edu-
cation Committee is hereby instructed that only children of
the Church of England be required to learn the Church Cate-
chism, but that the authorised version of the Bible, to the
exclusion of every other version, and of the Irish Extracts,
be freely used in the schools, and that the schools commence
and close with prayer morning and evening." These were
his sentiments. If he were disqualified for entertaining
such sentiments, then he was disqualified. (Cries of "vote ".)
Mr. Alderman Eari.LE.—l wonder how any gentleman
can possibly .act in the spirit of conciliation after such a de-
claration as that ?
The AI AY OR.—I can allow no personal observations at all.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BARCLAY had heard with great regret the observa-
tions just made by Mr. Hodgson, because he thought they
struck at the root of everything. Mr. Hodgson must be
aware that _ _ _

The MAYOR having observed that what Mr. Hodgson had
said was only in explanation, and need not allow further dis-
cussion upon it, said he would take the opinion of the council
whether Mr. Yates or Mr. Hodgson should be elected
The council then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Hodgson ..
For Mr. Yates
Majority for Mr. Hodgson
The following is the voting on this question :
For Mr. Hodgson.—Councillors, Shaw, Hodgson, Isaac
Holmes, Houghton, Sandbach, Copeland, Edwards, Barton,
Blundell, Sands, Rae, Aspinall, Toulmin, Lawrence, Robin-
son, Cooper, J. N. Wood, Birkett, Gladstone, Bushell,
Procter, Lloyd, Rigby, Kilshaw, Jones, Parker, G. H.
Lawrence, Trotman, A. Smith, junior, Harbord ; Alder-
men, Houghton, Nicol, Turner, Chilton, Bramley-Moore,
Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor-38.
For Mr. Yates.--Councillors Thornhill, Preston, H.
Holmes, Mellor, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aiken, Bright, Priest-
ley, Yates, J. Smith, Jordan, Platt, Mather—Aldermen
Holt, Bulley, Freme, Harvey, Evans, Barclay, and Earle
•-.99

Absent.—Councillors Shand, H. Lawrence,. Slater, and
Alderman Griffith.
Mr. MELLOR then proposed that Mr. Alderman Barclay
be appointed a member of the Education Committee.
Mr. SANDS moved as an amendment that Mr. Rae be ap-
pointed.
On the motion of Mr. ROBINSON, seconded by Mr.
Mr.M Rill): wasiss°eNlecsteecdonwdietd the
hout motion.adivlsn .
i
TOULMIN, Mr. Sands was the next elected on the commit-
tee.
Mr. BIRKETT moved, and Mr. TOULMIN seconded Mr.
Harbord as a fit and proper person to serve on the commit-
tee.
Mr. Alderman
E ARtu
opposition o proposed
me dar .
Harbord.san amendmentMr. Mr.
John
Mr. Buck
n,secondedl.l the amendment.
Lloyd
i
as
his name had been proposed, begged to
JORDANLc L. lo
say that he would not shrink from any duty that might be
imposed upon him, but Mr. Harbord's name having been
proposed, he (Mr. Lloyd) must express his desire that no
friend of his would vote for him in opposition to one who had
taken so much interest in the education question. He would
just observe, as to the formation of the committee, that if
gentlemen had not interrupted it in the beginning, they
would have found that there would have been a fair propor-
tion of those denominations who differ upon religious sub-
jects—which was perfectly right and just towards every c°1112"