The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-11-05 00:00:00

SPECIAL VESTRY-THE NEW POOR LAW IN
LIVERPOOL.

Yesterday a special meeting of the ley-payers of the parish
of Liverpool, in vestry assembled, was held in St. Nicholas's
Church, in pursuance of a highly respectable requisition to
the churchwardens, " to take into consiLleration the propri-
ety of applying to parliament during the next session for a
local act for the administration of the poor laws within this
parish, with the view of establishing such a system of com-
bined economy and efficiency as prevailed before the new
poor law was introduced." The meeting was numerously
attended.

Mr. ISAAC HUTCHINSON, one of the churchwardens, was
called to the chair, in the absence of the Rectors ; and he
called upon
Mr. M. D. LOWNDES, the vestry clerk, to read the requi-
sition to the churchwardens. It was signed by about 130 of
the most respectable individuals and firms in the town.

Mr. JAMES ASPINALL said it was with great pleasure he
rose to move the first resolution ; and he did so because he
was quite sure that it would meet the wishes of the greatest
part of the community. The parishioners had met in that
church before on this subject, and they then came to an una-
nimous opinion that it would be highly improper to introduce
the new poor law into Liverpool. But notwithstanding the
unanimous opinion of the town expressed on that occasion,
we were afflicted by it ; and he was'quite sure that any one
who knew the proceedings which had taken place from day
to day since we had been placed under it must be aware that
it had proved even worse than was then contemplated.
(Hear, hear.) He did not speak from individual knowledge,
but if the meeting would look at it, they would find there
were eighteen of the guardians who had signed the requisi-
tion. (Hear.) Another guardian was out of town who
would have signed it had he been here ; and there was a
twentieth guardian who, although he had not signed it, was
decidedly opposed to the new poor-law. Besides their au-
thority he had the unqualified authority of Mr. Rushton,
the stipendiary magistrate, who, in his magisterial capacity,
had from day to day viewed the working of the system, to
state to the meeting that it was totally impossible the new
poor-law could be carried out in Liverpool with any advan-
tage to the town. (Hear, hear.) There were several rea-
sons why it would not work well, and the most important
reason of all was, that almost every day circumstances oc-
curred in which the guardians did not know whether they
were acting legally or not—so completely were they under
the power of the commissioners and their assistant, Mr.
Mott. Mr. Mott just said to the guardians "you may do
this," or "you may do that;" and he (Mr. Aspinall) could
show the meeting how defective the present system was in
minor points. As to the accounts, all Mr. Mott had to do
was to go down to the auditor, and say to him, " you may
pass this account" whether it was legal or not. (Hear.)
He did not know whether the meeting was aware that re-
cently a vessel sailed from this port with emigrants, of whom
there were 167 on board. She was proceeding on her voy-
age when she was dismasted, and was obliged to put back.
Now, if the guardians had acted legally, they must have
been obliged to send every one of those 167 emigrants back
to their own parishes, at an expense of more than £3OO.
(Hear.) But what did they do ? Why, they acted illegally,
and so prevented the parish from being burdened with that
heavy charge. Instead of passing them off, the guardians
resolved, though it was illegal, to relieve them till they could
go to sea again. (Hear.) He did not know how much this
course cost, but if the other had been adopted it would have
put the parish to the expense of £3OO. He would ask the
chairman what was the expense?
The CHAIRMAN replied that it amounted to about £2O.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ASPINALL resumed.—Thus the guardians, by what,
under the existing state of things was illegal, saved the parish
nearly £3OO, and what did Mr. Mott ? He said—" This is cer-
tainly illegal, but I will order the auditor to pass the account."
(Hear, hear) So, upon the ipse dixit of Mr. Mott, the
guardians were relieved from all responsibility, so completely
were they in his power. (Hear, hear.) Again, he would
ask any gentleman in the meeting, if there was ever a more
respectable requisition in Liverpool than that which had just
been read ? (Several voices—" No, no.") Again, what did
Mr. Mott do ? He went down to the auditor and instructed
him that the paltry sum of 6s. 6d., for printing the requisi-
tion should not be passed, but it must be paid for by the
churchwardens and overseers themselves ! (Hear.) Was
not this sort of proceeding tyrannical ? (Hear.) Was it
not paltry ? Was it not disgraceful that the whole town of
Liverpool should be run roughshod over by such a system as
this ? (Hear, hear, hear.) It was not to be borne in a land
of liberty that this system should supersede the excellent one
which the town had before. (Hear.) But there was another
cogent reason why we should have a local act, namely, the
oppression of the new poor law. (Hear, hear.) It was the
most arbitrary and oppressive law ever passed within
the memory of man. (Hear, hear, hear.) It separated
the husband from his wife, and the child from
its mother,—(hear,)—apparently without any reason at all
but just to satisfy the commissioners, who, he supposed,
having the law passed, did not care how it acted. Indeed,
they acted illegally every day of their lives, and so long as
the law served their purpose they did not at all mind how it
operated. (Hear, hear.) He would say, however, that in
some districts the new poor-law had worked well, but in this
parish it certainly had not. Let the meeting just look at the
number of Irish flocking into and passing: through this town
every day. He bad himself frequently taken the trouble of
passing them from day to day, and although there were many
gross impositions attempted, still he had witnessed scenes
among this class that he could hardly have believed had he
not seen them himself. He would relate an instance of the
system carried on with regard to the Irish. A poor woman,
a widow, with nine children, was lately relieved at Leeds by
food. She was then put on board a waggon, without a half-
penny in her pocket, along with her nine children, and put
down at the door of the overseer of the next adjoining parish.
She was passed in like manner from parish to parish till she
arrived in Liverpool, herself and children starving, and she
was left in Fenwick-street. Now if the guardians had not
administered out-door relief to these poor creatures what
would have become of them ? They must have starved, if
not perished, in the streets. (Hear, hear.) It could be
borne out by proof that every word he had stated was true.
Under these circumstances he was glad to be able to
congratulate the town that men of all parties, and
of all religions, were joining together to put down this
obnoxious system ; and he was quite sure they were only
asking for what was only due to the just claims of the town,
in asking for a local act. (Hear, bear.) That local act
would be as nearly as possible the same as that which had
hitherto worked so beautifully in this parish. (Hear, hear.)
Perhaps there might be a few alterations of no moment, but
substantially it would be the same. He had had a good deal
of conversation with many gentlemen upon this subject, and
their opinions coincided with his own, that the nearer they
could get to the old local act the better. (Hear, hear,) With
these remarks he begged to move the resolution. Mr. As-
pinall then read the resolution, which will be found in our
advertising columns.
Mr. WILLIAM RUSHTON cordially coincided with Mr.
Aspinall in the remarks he had made, as to the necessity for
a local act in this parish. He was no orator, and all he
could say was, that the new poor law could not be carried
out here. He begged to second the motion. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. Churchwarden BIRKETT, before the resolution was
put, thought it due to the chairman and to himself to make
a statement in contradiction to one which had been indus-
triously circulated about the town. It had been reported
that they, both one and the other, had been parties to getting
up the requisition calling this meeting. For himself he could
say, and he could speak as confidently for the chairman, that
they had not directly or indirectly asked a single person to
put their name to a requisition. (Hear.) In fact, he (Mr.
Birkett) had never even seen it till it was presented to him.
(Hear.)

Mr. 'EPHRA IM KNAPPER concurred in all that had fallen
from his friend Mr. Aspinall, upon the operation of the new
poor law. (Hear.) He was not aware why, after a lapse of
more than five years, the new poor law should have been in-
troduced into Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) He supposed,
however, it was owing to the rule which required the estab-
lishment of uniformity. He had always been perfectly con-
vinced that Sturges Bourne's act, under which this parish
had been governed for so many years, had worked well—
(hear) although he deprecated the plurality of votes
whether he was right or wrong in that he did now say—he
was always satisfied with one. He was of opinion that the
affairs of every township and parish ought to be administered
by their own inhabitants ; why the management of them
should be centered in London he really could not conceive
—(hear, hear)—for it was totally impossible for commission-
ers in London, to know the peculiar necessities and circum-
stances of each community. The authorities in each parish
or township had always an interest in doing the best they
could for the poor—in connecting economy and kindness
with their management. (Cheers,) He had ever perceived
further, that the new poor law had been expensive in its
operations, and that it had evil tendencies which he would
endeavour to describe. The difficulties in the way of affilia-
tion were such that, in his opinion, suicide, infanticide, and
murder had been the result. He admitted that false swear-
ing had been found in cases of affiliation under the old system,
but he contended it had not been practised to a degree which
justified so many difficulties as the present system threw in
the way. His friend Mr. Aspinall had adverted to the sepa-
ration of man and wife, and of the mother from her children :
this was a diabolical part of the system. (Hear.) The test
was put where it ought not to be. (Hear.) Relief out of
doors, he had always contended, ought to be given; so that
the friends of the poor might have an opportunity of doing
something for them, or they for themselves. Temporary
relief, under all circumstances, would be found less expen-
sive than maintaining a whole family in the workhouse.
(Hear, hear.) The head of a family might be visited with
temporary sickness, or he might receive a hurt : was it not
better to relieve the family without taking them into the
house ? for when the head of a family once got there, inde-
pendence of spirit ceased, and he never cared how often he
might be there afterwards. (Hear, hear.) The system too
was productive of unnecessary expense. (Hear.) All sala-
ries, and payments for buildings, except such as were inci-
dental and unavoidable, ought to be avoided as much as pos-
sible ; the rates collected for the relief of the poor ought to
be distributed as far as possible in the relief of the poor
(hear, hear, hear); but these principles could not be pro-
perly carried out under the new poor-law. He therefore
deprecated the system of centralising the management of
parish affairs in commissioners in London, for it was impos-
sible for them to administer in a proper way the affairs of
the poor. Every locality ought to have its own manage-
ment; and no person was so fit to manage the poor in any
township or parish as the persons most conversant with the
locality. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. ASPINALL would make one observation with regard
to the additional expense which must be occasioned to this
parish by filling up such documents as those he held in his
hand. He had there an order from the Poor Law Commis-
sioners to fill up a " list of the persons assessed to the relief
of the poor in the parish of Liverpool, from whom the over-
seers have obtained payment without compulsory measures,
and whom they consider fit objects to be excused." (Hear.)
There were almost 28,000 names and residences which would
have to be filled up every quarter if this order were obeyed.
(Hear.) Here was another--" A list of persons and their
residences, who have been summoned during the quarter for
non-payment of poor-rates. He dared say this would
require the writing of another 28,000 names. (Hear.) Here
were others—" A list of persons from whom through error,
and without any fault of the overseers, the poor-rates cannot
be recovered ;" and " A list of persons who have been
removed to their parishes under justices'. orders." (Hear,
hear.) It was totally impossible to till up these returns for
the parish of Liverpool. It would take 20 clerks to make
them out properly. (Hear.) He begged to ask Mr. Hart
whether this duty would not employ 20 clerks ?
Mr. RUSIITON.—And what is to become of the rate-books
all the time? (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. B I RKETT.—And who is to collect the money ? (Hear.)
Mr. ASPINALL.----it is impossible to do it. (Hear, hear.)
Ask Mr. Hart if I do not speak within compass when I say
it would take twenty clerks to do this work.
Mr. II ART.—It would take considerably above twenty
clerks. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. BIRKETT said his experience, as one of the overseers,
went to corroborate all that Mr. Aspinall had stated ; but he
could, if necessary, go a great deal further. It was well
known to the chairman and to the rest of the overseers, that
if they had acted as they might have done with strict legality,
the parish would have been brought to a dead stop long be-
fore this, and the poor might have been perishing in the
streets. (Hear, hear.) There was not a single day in which
they were not acting illegally in acting as men and as Chris-
tians. (Hear, hear.) He was certain that if the same sys-
tem was to be pursued at the next annual election of overseers,
no respectable man woulil be found in the town to serve the
office. At present there were two boards attending to the
poor, which boards, instead of acting one with the other,
acted quite the contrary. Relief was given one-half by the
guardians, and the other half by the overseers. The over-
seers, he ventured to say, could not have a more troublesome
I office. Numerous parties went before Mr. Rushton for

relief, who sent them to the assistant-overseer ; the as-
sistant-overseer, not knowing what to do, sent to the
honorary-overseer; who not knowing what to do, sent
to him (Mr. Birkett.) He did not know what to do ; he
went to Mr. Lowndes. Mr. Lowndes said—" You cannot
leave the poor to perish in the streets; you must relieve
them." There was scarcely a day in which they were not
at Mr. Lowndes's office. The overseers, indeed, were ofttn
so perplexed that, to use a common expression, they scarcely
knew whether they stood upon their head or their heels.
They had asked the guardians and the poor-law commission-
ers to give their orders in writing, but they would not do
anything of the sort. (Hear.) The overseers could not get
a survey of the parish, or make a survey of the new property,
in order that it might pay equally, to the poor-rate, without
going before the commissioners. Upon a late occasion they
wanted to make a complete system, by putting all the different
boards under one and the same management, but they were
shown that if this were done it would be impossible to col-
lect the government rates, which amounted to £30,000 a
year. (Hear.) Again, with regard to the church rate, how
was that to be collected ? It was now collected, and there
was no hubbub about it. Finding they could not get over
this they would give none of their orders in writing. (Hear.)
The new poor-law certainly was going on, but how long it
would go on was impossible to say. It was a good deal
more cumbersome and more expensive than the old system,
and it would be still more so if all the returns were made
which the commissioners ordered to be made, but they were
morally impossible. There were very few clerks now, and
only six collectors. Four months were taken up with the
registration lists, which the overseers could not help, but
without much additional force it would be impossible to col-
lect the rates and do the duties of the office. Mr. Mott
thought he could bring a combined system into the parish,
but how he could effect it he (Mr. Birkett) could not say.
Mr. Birkett concluded by strongly recommending the pa-
rishioners to apply for a local act.

Mr. THOMAS FORD said that having had some experience
upon the select vestry, as well as upon the board of guar-
dians, he had had opportunities of witnessing the effects of the
new poor law as compared with those of the old system. He
attended the meeting held in that church some time ago to
protest against the introduction of the new poor law here, and
at that period he remained a silent spectator. He was not
then aware that the evils of it upon tkis parish would have
been so great as he had now found them to be. He was not
one of those who gave an opinion without having first ascer-
tained the reasons for entering upon it ; and in watching the
progress and operation of the new poor law in this parish, as
compared with the old system, he was at a loss to find any
improvement in any branch of the public affairs. Upon that
account he should say that this parish had been unjustly
meddled with. If there had been no improvement, why
trouble us with a change ? (Hear, hear, hear.) But that
was not all. It was, as the requisition, a system of mere
caprice. Additional officers were appointed in the relieving
department; greater additional powers were given to the re-
lieving officers than they were entrusted with under the old
system. Whether the change would be found beneficial he very
much doubted. (Cheers.) If he might venture to give an
opinion, he should say that it was no benefit to place in other
hands that which was formerly vested in the select vestry,
who saw the poor relieved themselves, instead of trusting it
'to others. (Hear.) He could bear out what Mr. Birkett
had said, that if this system was to be persevered in, the
poor law guardians were to be subjected to the will, the ca-
price, and the surveillance of the commissioners at Somerset
House. If independent men chosen of out of the bulk of a
population of 200,000 persons to serve the office of guardians
were to be under the constant surveillance of these men,
would any be found to act ? He thought not; besides, as
had been justly stated, they did not know what was law, and
what was not. (Hear.) Under the old system we knew what
the law was, but now the law was what came from Somerset
House. (Hear.) How could men here tell what they con-
sidered law there? Give them a letter and the guardians
could adhere to it ; but to the mind of man they could not,
because they did not know their own mind, and the guardians
were obliged to consult them before they could do anything.
(Hear.) In conclusion, he protested against the system of
being governed by men who had no connection with us either
in interest or feeling. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then put by the Chairman, and carried
unanimously.

Mr. JAM-ES INGRAM moved a vote of thanks to the Chair-
man.

Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE seconded the motion, and
t was adopted.

The CHAIRMAN, in acknowledging the compliment, said
:he parishioners had only done themselves justice in calling
`or a local bill.

The meeting then separated, having occupied little more
.han half an hour.

KIRKDALE QUARTER SESSIONS,

The Michaelmas Quarter Sessions for the trial of prisoners
confined in the county House of Correction, commenced
yesterday, before the Rev. Jonathan Brooks and a pretty
full bench of magistrates. The calendar was more than
usually numerous, (as noticed by the chairman,) for the
period of the year, but the offences were not of more than
the usual magnitude. There were eleven prisoners for mis-
demeanours and assaults.

The following gentlemen were sworn to constitute the
Grand Jury :

Joseph Perrin, glass manufacturer, Warrington,
Peter Anderton, Esq., Upholland,
Moses Atherton, gentleman, ditto,
Thomas Rigby, gentleman, ditto,
Robert Marsh, delf-master, ditto,
W. Watkin, shoemaker, Whiston,
Joseph Thompson file-cutter, Widnes,
John Gee, corder, ditto,
James Allen, maltster, Ormakirk,
Henry Bromley, painter, ditto,
John Fanehurst, flower dealer, ditto,
Stanley Gill Smith, yeoman, ditto,
Robert Daglish, yeoman, Pemberton,
William Brockhurst, currier, Prescot,
William Allcard, civil engineer, Warrington,
Edward Brown, glass mannfacturer, ditto,
Peter Davies, draper, ditto,
Joseph Smith, brewer, Prescot,
George Ashburner, schoolmaster, Ormsk
Thomas Banendale, draper, ditto,
Anthony Tyrer Ducker, stationer, Prescot.
The Rev. CHAIRMAN then addressed the Grand Jury
nearly as follows : _ _

Gentlemen of the Grand Jury :—I am sorry that I am not
able to congratulate you that your labours will be light on
the present occasion, as there are no fewer than ninety-two
prisoners within the walls of the gaol, besides those to be
tried for misdemeanours. This is a much heavier calendar
than usual, and I observe that there has also been an increase
in the number of offenders generally throughout the king-
dom. I have no means of knowing the precise cause of this
state of things. Generally, at the beginning of the winter the
calendars are lighter, and what is the cause I am unable to
state, but it is a state of things which all have to lament.
Looking, however, over the calendar, I am glad to say that
the offences charged are of the ordinary kind, and such as
you will not, I think, find any difficulty in dealing with.
Should it in any instance be otherwise, we will give you our
assistance in coming to a proper decision. This is the proper
time to notice any acts of parliament affecting the administra-
tion of justice, and to make remarks upon them, if they
contained anything affecting the duties of the Grand Jury ;
but I am not aware that there are any such, and you will,
therefore, retire, and consider the bills that will be laid be-
fore you.

The magistrates then retired to transact the usual private
business, and the Sessions-court did not resume until the
afternoon,—but no trials of importance took place through-
out the day.

COURT OF COMMON PLEAS .-WEDNESDAY,
EDNESDAY.

DRANCKER AND ANOTHER V. MOLYNEUX

Mr. Sergeant Channell mov&ifo7a;uletoshow cause why
the verdict which had passed for the plaintiff in this case
should not be set aside and a nonsuit entered. The action,
which had been tried twice before, was again tried before
Lord Denman, at the last Liverpool assizes, and the main
question in the cause was the validity of the title of the plain-
tiffs, as assignees of Messrs. Humberston and Frodsham, who
became bankrupts on the 12th of June, 1837, the point being,
whether there was a sufficient proof of a petitioning-creditor's
debt. The fiat was issued on the petition of one Thomas
Roberts ; and on the trial before Lord Denman the plaintiffs
put in an order of the Court of Review, dated May 25, 1839,
by which the joint debt of two other persons, merchants and
co-partners, was substituted for the debt of the original
petitioning creditor, Roberts. It appeared, on cross-exami-
nation, that this order had been amended only ten days before
the third trial took place, and three objections were made on
the part of the defendant to this amended order—first, that
it did not appear from the order that the petitioning creditors
were creditors who had proved their debts before the applica-
tion in the Court; secondly, that the order must be taken to
speak from the time of the amendment made, and not from
its original date; and thirdly, that supposing a court of law
could not inquire into the order, and the time and circum-
stances under which it was made, that the order itself was
not sufficient on the face of it. Lord Denman said he should
not stop the case, although he thought there was great weight
in the objections, and the learned serjeant now reiterated
them, citing " 111tiskett tY, Drummond," 10 B. and C., 153 ;
" Christie v. Unwin," 11 Ad. and Ell., 373; and "Ayrton v.
Davis," 3 Moore and Scott, 183.
The Court granted the rule.

ANIMAL MAGNETISM.—The lecture of Mons. Lafontaine,
on animal magnetism, delivered in tne Portico C o

room, on Wednesday night, was very amu ce of
acting; but as to the principles laid down by the lecture:. it may
be said that what were new were not true. and that what were
true were not new. The audience, after having seen the lee_
turer fail in four attempts to produce his pretended effects
upon as many gentlemen, came to an unanimous resol u
that the whole was a piece of humbug.
HIGHWAY ROBBERY.—Three suspicious looking young
men, in rather tattered attire, were yesterday brought before
Mr. Rushton, at the police-court, on a charge of robbing an
old man on the highway of upwards of £4. The complainant,
who was clad in the humblest attire of the pisantry of the
sister isle, when they return from their autumnal labours,
and who did not appear to be worth sixpence, said, in true
Irish brogue, that a gang of eight men, amongst whom were
the prisoners, had come up to him three or four miles on the
other side of Prescot, when he was on his way to this port,
and after promising him a job of work in the neighbourhood,
attacked him and robbed him of his money—which he de-
scribed. As the case was not within Mr. Rushton's juris-
diction, the prisoners were sent to a county magistrate's
office, and will probably be committed for trial at the pending
Kirkdale sessions.

ASSAULT ON A SERVANT GIRL, BY A RESPECTABLE
FEMALE.-At the Police-court yesterday Mrs. Gill, wife of
a boot-maker in Crown-street, appeared to answer a sum-
mons for an assault on a servant girl named Rosamond
Fairhurst. The complainant said, she had been ten years in
the employ of Mr. Hughes, who lived next door to the
defendant. There was a common and narrow passage between
the two houses behind, where she had long been accustomed
to shake the carpets. While she was occupied in shaking a
kitchen carpet there three days ago, the defendant came out,
called her a dirty slut, and afterwards came out and threw
the contents of two buckets upon her, the last of which—
chamber slops—(of a most unsavoury odour. as we under-
stood her)—completely drenched her through! Mrs. Brown,
who had been twenty-five years in Mr. Hughes' service,
corroborated the facts, stating that the girl was completely
drenched through, and her shoes filled by the last bucketful.
She (witness) merely said to defendant that she was asto-
nished she should do such a thing ; for if she had shown
that that was not a proper place in which to shake the car-
pets, as they had long been accustomed to do, and considered
they had a right, they would take them elsewere.—The
defendant said, she had often cautioned the girl not to shake
them there, but she persisted. She had, she said, only
thrown a small quantity of slops, which she happened to
have in her hand at the time, on the lower part of the com-
plainant's dress. Mr. Hughes said that the complainant
was wet through.—Mr. Rushton fined the defendant 20s.
and costs for the assault, and advised her in future to treat
young people of her own sex in a more becoming manner.

YANKEE POLICE REPORTING.—JuIius Cwsar, the
younger, a dirty looking negro loafer, was charged with bat-
tering the face of a decent looking white man. The com-
plainant in this case said, he was a votary of Apollo, anylice
a travelling fiddler, and that Julius Caesar, with a party of
negroes, wanted him to play " Jem along Josey ", which
proposal offended the dignity of the scraper of catgut, and he
replied disdainfully, " We takes no insults nor plays no
tunes to no niggers," and then a row was enacted, in which
the fiddler got his eyes put out of tune. Julius Caesar was
acquitted.—New York Herald.