The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-11-02 00:00:00

REMOVAL OP THE HAYNIARKET,

r. Councillor RA msDLN said that he was opposed to that
portion of the report which related to the removal of the hay-
market. He thought that the old Botanic Garden was a very
ineligible site for a south haymarket, and should much prefer
the removal of the present market to one central situation.
1 he farmers interested in the subject had a decided objection
to the proposed plan. Besides, it appeared to !inn that, with
one central market, persons would be enabled to make more
advantageous purchases than they could if the markets were
scattered up and down. He could buy things cheaper in se
John's Market than in any other. He should move, as an
amendment, that there be one central market for the sale of
hay.

!Sir. Councillor PLATT seconded the amendment. Lie also
w•as in favour of nue central market, and was of opinion that
the Botanic Garden was not a proper place fur a ha}•market.

. . .
Mr. Councillor Cumin.: said, that one reason why this sub-
ject had now been brought forward, was to set the public
mind at rest on an important point. Numbers of persons
laboured under the misapprehension that there was to be one
market only, at the north end of the town; and he begged
to say, that many of those who had signed the memoriais,
had stated that they did not know at the time that there was
to be a market at the south, and that, if they had been ac-
quainted with the facts of the case, they would not have signed.
He stated this positively, as a thing which could not be de-
nied. It had been stated that there would be an advantage
in having one central market. He wished to know what in-
convenience had resulted from having St. James's, Scotland-
road, Islington, and Cleveland-square markets? Ile would
ask, if they were to do away with the other markets, under
the determination of centralizing St. John's, if the public
would not rise up in alarm, and oppose them? Such, in fact,
was the increase in the town, that St. John's Market had ac-
tually become too small, and they had been compelled, from
time to time, to dismiss certain branches of trade from this
market, for the purpose of making room for those who vended
that description of produce more proper for a market. There
were other considerations:—the concentration and amount
of all the passengers at the railway station, the numbers of
whom would certainly increase every year; the proposed
erection of courts of justice, and of. St. George's Hall, which
tender-Ed it necessary that there should be an open spaca for

. .
easy approach. If they would look at the map, they would
find that the Botanic Garden was nut all an inconvenient

situation. There was access to it from Wavertrce, Child-
wall, Aigburth, and 'l'oxteth-park, and it stood in the centre
of those roads. Besides, it had the advantage of being land
in the possession of the corporation. Latterly, the situation
had been much deteriorated by the establishment of a num-
ber of coal-yards in the vicinity, and the land would not sell.
It had in fact been on sale a number of years, but had not
bee❑ purchased. He hoped it would be understood that this
measure had now been brought forward to allay the appre-
hensions of those who conceived there was no intention of
appointing a market in the south as well as the north.
Mr. Councillor W. EARLE said Mr. Ramsded had alluded
to the wishes of the farmers. lie did not know what they
had to do with the farmers, who, no doubt, wished to have
one market, that they might lay their heads together for the
purpose of keeping up the price of hay. He thought they
ought to take care of themselves.

Mr. Alderman ENaNs-;;;;-Perfectly of opinion that the
Botanic-garden ought to be the only place appropriated fora
market. There was no kind of analogy between a market
where there were carts and horses, and one where there were
pedestrians only. A load of hay had to be carted all over
the town ; but a washerwoman who had to buy a few articles
went to a neighbouring market; and to her it would be an
immense evil if there were no ❑eighbouring market. The
hay•earts were like ships; must of them, after the hay had
been disposed of, had to go for a return cargo in the shape of
manure. What was their object in having a market at the
north ? They must pay for bay wherever it was to go. He
believed that the city of Dublin, which had 60.000 inhabit-
ants more than Liverpool, had but one hay-market. They
all knew that the lesser the markets, the easier the combina-
tion. Ile was in favour of one market, and thought that the
Botanic-garden was the most suitable place.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON sail that he was at first favourable
to the establishment of only one market, but the return made
to the inquiries of the committee, which showed that fully
three fourths of the produce entered from, and was disposed
of for consumption to persons residing at the north end of
the town, decided his opinions the other way. The Botanic-
garden was too far to tie south-east. With the knowledge
that this town was increasing, and likely to increase, he
thought that it was quite as proper to have two markets for
hay as for anything else; and he knew no better situations,
admitting that two were desirable, than the sites fixed upon.
Councillor Dr. CARSON observed, that they might as Well
say there should he two cotton-markets. 1-1 e thought that
their object should be the accommodation of the public; and
if it were desirable that the market should remain in its
place, why let it remain. The railway stations and St.
George's Hall were merely secondary considerations to the
hay-markets. St. George's Hall was to be a building for the
convenience of a few only, and there were other places on
which it might be erected; but the havmarket was for the
convenience of the pubic generally, and their accommoda-
tion should be attended to in preference to the convenience

of a few. If, however, it was determined that there should
be a market at the north end of the town, he thought there
should be one at the south also; and in that case, perhaps on
better site could be selected than the Botanic garden. But
still there was no better place than the central station near
to the other markets. He thought it would be better to defer

the consideration of so important a matter until another day,
and have a special council for the discussion of the subject.
After some further conversation, Messrs. Ramsden and
Platt consented to withdraw their motion.
Mr. Alderman FRAME then moved that the consideration
of the proceedings of the Finance Committee, with reference
to the formation of a south haymarket, be postponed.
Mr. Councillor DCNCAN seconded the motion.
The council then went to the vote, when there appeared—
For Mr. Frcn.e's amendment—Messrs Harvey, Frankland,
Mellor, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Carson, Morecroft, Higgins,
Coglan, Mason, Ramsden, Duncan, and Frame.

Against the amendment—Messrs. J. Holmes, J. Hey-
worth, Hodgson, Logan, Houghton, Thornhill, Shand, Fiss-
ion, Rawdon, H. Holmes, Walmsley, Bolton, •Wooilright,
Bright, Priestly, H. Hornby, Bibby, C. Lawrence, Wood,
Lassa, Earle, Brockleb,ink, Blackburn, Smith, G. H.
Lawrence,, Jordan, Platt, Carrie„Sheil, Booth, J. Hornbv,
R. Roskell, Leathom, G. Holt, Junes, Benn, Evans, T. loft, -
Moon, Bulley, Barclay, Robinson, and the Mayor.
Absent. Messrs. Barton, Sands, Segar, Leigh, Cropper,
and 0. Hey worth.
Mr. Councillor LassELL inquired whether it was intended
to permit teachers of all religious denominations to have ac-
cess to the persons educated at the proposed new institution
for the deaf and dumb? He said that one of the most im-
portant things which would have to be taught to the deaf
and dumb would be religion ; and before he gave his con-
sent to the grant of the land, he should like to kuow whether
teachers of every persuasion were to have access.
Mr. Councillor W. Connit: said, that on all occasions,
when grants of land had been made, it bad been the practice
to leave to the town-clerk the drawing out of a grant, in
which should be such reservations of right to particular or to
all parties, as the council thought fit to pi opose. He did not
consider, however, that the principal object was to teach reli-
gion in the new institution, but to impart to them that know-
ledge which would enable them to follow a trade. He had
never heard that the present institution was confined to one
party.

Mr. Alderman SIMt thought that the remarks of Mr.
..assell merited consideration. T hey were told that the chit-
Iren of parents of all religions were admitted into the insti-

_ .
tution for the deaf and dumb; so he belonged to a country
where, in like manner, all children were to be admitted into
the schools, but it was on the condition that thay consented
to be taught episcopacy. It was their duty to take care, that
if the dumb or deaf children of parents belonging to a par-
ticular sect Were admitted, that he was not obliged to learn
the tenets of another particular sect. Unless this were pro-
vided for, he should oppose the grant.
The TOWN-CLERK stated that the scheme would have to
be sent to the Finance Committee, and he would have to
report upon it, and no appropriation would be made till that
scheme was admitted. It must come into committee before
there could be any legal appropriation of land.
The proceedings of the Finance Committee were then
confirmed, with the exception of that portion which related
to the saltpetre warehouses.

CORPORATION LEASES.
The report of the committee on the above business having
Jeen read,

Mr. Councillor Cunt:lE said he was happy to inform the
council, that the leasehold property of the corporation was
greatly in demand, no less than £17,000 having been received
for leases since August last.

Proceedings confirmed.
WATCH COMMITTEE.
In the report of the above committee was embodied a reso-
lution of thanks to the head constable for his exertions at the
late fire, and to Joshua Wahnslev, Esq for his great atten-
tion as chairman of the committee during the past year. A
resolution which appeared in the report read to the council,
contained a recommendation that a statement should be pre-
pared, similar to that of the preceding year, of the number
of times which the committee had met, and also of the num-
ber of times which each member had attended the daily board.
The MAYOn stated that there had been some reflections
made upon the conduct of the police at the late fire. Now,
he had been on the spot during the night and part of the
following day, and he must say that, so far from exhibiting
any disposition to save themselves, he had frequently felt it
his duty to check Mr. Whitty and the police under him from
exposing themselves to danger.
.He could speak both of him
and the police in the highest manner.
Mr. Councillor COGLAN said that in the watch report there
was a recommendation that the secretary should be instructed
to prepare a statement of the number of times which each
member had attended. He had a decided objection to any
such a thing being done, and should move that that part of
the report be not confirmed. if his motion was lost, he should
thin follow it up by proposing, that every other committee
should be placed on the same footing; for lie did not see why
the members of the Watch Committee in particular should
be selected as the objects either of eulogy or censure. The
proposition, no doubt, had its origin in the personal vanity
of some one or two members, who wished to stand well with
their constituents, and who, because circumstances had al-
lowed them to attend an extraordinary number of times,'
wished, by placing themselves in juxta-position with others
who had' been less constant in their attention, to obtain
praise for themselves and censure for their co-members; for
tf they were to be placed at the top of the pedestal, others-
must of necessity be low in comparison. Ir,such a plan were
acceded to, it would only be just to allow every one who had
net given his constant attention to his duties as a committee-
man an opportunity of explaining the causes, and then the
consequence must be that the time of the council would be
occupied with long and minute details of private affairs. It
had happened that one gentleman had been precluded front
attending by the death of a relative—another lied been kept.
away by the death of a partner—some might possibly have
business which would oblige them to go out of town—or pos-
sibly some might have been prevented from attending because
they were on another committee, whose deliberations they
preferred attending. If the motion were persevered in, he
should move that all committees be placed in the same rela-
tive position.
Mr. Alderman RoalNsolv, in seconding the motion, re-
marked that there were some gentlemen on the committee
who were out of business or whose business sat so light upon
them, that they had little else to do. He knew one or two
gentlemen to whom it would be the greatest nuisance in the
world if they were deprived of the opportunity of attending
its meetings, and they would experience some difficulty.in
finding another mode of spending the spare hour and half.
Mr. Councillor EARLE thought the subject unworthy of
their attention. He did not care a straw whether they pub-
lished his name or not.

Mr Councillor WA LNISLEY could hare no personal feeling
in the matter, as he was not a member of the daily board. It
was he who had brought forward the motion to publish the
names, in order to enable the council to judge who could best
attend those committees, and not fur the purpose of having
the name of any gentleman held up to the public, and touch
less to make offensive remarks upon. He thought it is duty
to bring it forward, as it had been previously named; for, as
there was a daily board, and borne had not attended so regn
larly as they ought to have done, some inducement should be
held out to them to attend, especially as the public business
would not otherwise be attended to.

Mr. Councillor Cutteix said that the principal question
was, had the arduous duties of the Watch CoMmittee been
properly attended to. He thought that they had, and that
the public were much indebted to the gentlemen who formed
that committee. He did not see any necessity for preparing
a list of the attendance; but as they themselves had had -air
opportunity of knowing who had attended and who had' not,
as well as what were the causes of absence, he e6uld not but
think that the recommendations of those members would he
attended to in the formation of the new committee. And' he
was of opinion that it should remain with themselves to regu-
late their own proceedings. rather than that the council should
take upon it itself. He dared say that no gentleman would
object to his name being read; but he thought that the names
of the committee being known to themselves, and the extent
of their attendance, that the knowledge would be sufficient to
guide them in their choice. _ .
Mr. Alderman ROBINSON said his remembrance was per-
fectly strong as to the reading of the names last year. The
reading of the names was nut called for last year, but had
been commenced by Mr. Waluisley; and Mr. Shand had
expressed a very strong feeling on the 'occasion, and he
thought that he had said that he would nut be on the com-
mittee.

The council then went to the vote- but before doing so,
Messrs. Waltnsley, Houghton, Frandand Mellor Wooll-
right, Carson, Higgins, Jordan ,
, and Freine got op and
left the room.

The following is the result of the division
For Mr. Coglan's amendment —Mesirs..4. Holmes, J.
Hevworth, Logan, Thornhill, Shand, Preiton, RawdOn,
H. Holmes, Bolton, Priestley. 11. liornby,...Bibby, J. Law.
rence, C. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood, Lassell,'Earle, &tickle-
bank, Morecroft, Blackburn, Cogan, Moop, G. IL Law.
rence, Platt, Currie, Ramsden, Booth, .1. Hornbv, Reskell,
Leathom, 'l'. Holt, G. Holt, Jones, Berm, Evans, Moon,
Barclay, and Robinson.
Against the amendment—Messrs. Hodgson, Bright, Harvey,
Duncan, Shell, and the Mayor.
For the amendment, 39; against it, 6—majoritY, 33.
THE NEW CeSTORI-HoUSM. • ,
In the report of the Customhouse committee -it was. set
forth, that directions had been given for flooring the Long.
room with asphalte at 7s 6d per square yard-..
Mr. Councillor LASSELI, said he had been informed that
in warns apartments the material above mentioned did not
harden.

•
Mr. Alderman SHEIf. said that it was 'pitiable to
building like the new Customhouse in slate quo. The,sub-
ject ought to be taken into serious consideration, and means
deviled to force it forward to completion. -It was evident to
him that there must be blame somewhere.
The Mayon explained that the delay rested with her Ma-
jesty's government, and they were ()illy stopping until go-
vernment had made up theirminds. The key of the postoffice
had long since been given up.

Mr. Alderman SHEIL said that a remonstrance ought to
be made. , _

• .
conocillorJonDAN observed that, with respect to the
long room, they were not likely to get a farthing of money
more. They hail been told that they had all early got £150,006,
and ought not to es pect any more. They had written to go-
vernment about ventillating the long room, and could not
obtain an answer ►bout it until the other.day, when Mr. Stan-
ley came down, and said that it should lie done. There was
not a day on which he did not call to see how they were
going on. The rails were all finished, iind very ugly things
they were. (Laughter.)