The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-06-05 00:00:00

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imperial Parliament.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAY.
The Annual Indemnity Bill, brought from the Commons,
was read the first time.

TIIE DOCK DILL.

The Bishop of EXETER gave notice, that on the 16th in-
stant he would move for sundry returns on the subject of
emigration to New South Wales.
The Marquis of BREDALBANE, on presenting petitions
against the Earl of Aberdeen's bill regarding the Church of
Scotland, observed that their lordships were doubtless aware
that the General Assembly had declared against the noble
earl's measure ; and, he added, not only were the clergy,
but, he might say, the people of Scotland, against the bill.
The Earl of HADDINGTON observed that, according to all
the information he had been able to collect, he came to con-
clusions the reverse of those stated by the noble marquis, in
so far as concerns the sentiments of the people of Scotland
regarding the bill alluded to.
Lord BROUGHAM said that, from all he could learn, the
people of Scotland did not desire to place themselves in re-
sistance to the law.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved that the house resolve
into committee on the Administration of Justice (two addi-
tional judges) Bill.
The motion led to a long discussion, in which Lords Lynd-
hurst, Brougham, Ahinger, Denman, &c., took part, but, in
conformity with an amendment of Lord Lyndhurst, the bill
was referred to a select committee.
The remaining business having been disposed of, their
lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY.
Mr. T. DUNCOMEE presented a petition from Feargus
O'CONNOR, praying to be removed from York Gaol to the
custody of the Marshal of the Marshalsea, where he could
have the medical advice of those who knew his illness. He
gave notice that he should call attention to the petition on
Tuesday.
Sir H. PARNELL brought in a bill for taking a census of
the population. The bill was read the first time.
Col. Surrnonp inquired of Mr. Handley whether 4 was
his intention to proceed with the Settled Estates and Drainage
Bills during the present session ?
Mr. HANDLEY answered, that he was very anxious that
the bills should be passed during the present session, if pos-
sible ; but, from the obstructions with which he had been
met, he was fearful of succeeding ; however, he fully expected
that on Thursday he should be enabled to proceed with both
bills.
Col. SIBTRORP gave notice that, on the motion for going
into committee on the Drainage of Lands Bill, he would
move, as an amendment, that the bill be committed that day
six months. He would also move the like amendment on
the motion for going into committee on the Settled Estates
Bill. _ _

O'CONNELL gave notice that he should move, by way
of amendment, on the motion of Mr. Serjeant Talfourd, re-
garding Feargus O'Connor, for an inquiry into the state of
prison discipline, and into the difference in the treatment of
persons confined for felonies and misdemeanors.
Mr. W. MILES moved for a return of the number of poor
law unions in England and Wales, which notwithstanding
the orders of the poor law commissioners, had refused to ap-.
point chaplains; the number of inhabitants in each union
and each workhouse ; and the number of deaths that had
taken place in each workhouse.
Mr. HODSON Hiring asked the Under Secretary of State
for the Home Department, whether the report of the com-
missioners on turnpike loans would be soon presented, and
whether it was his intention to propose any measure to Par-
liament during the present session founded on that report ?
Mr. Fox MAULE answered that the report was already in
type, and he hoped it would be presented to the house shortly.
He did not, however, think it would be in his power, at this
period of the session, to carry through any measure founded
upon the recommendations of the report, although, perhaps,
he might introduce a bill on the subject, with the view of
giving the country an opportunity of becoming acquainted
with its provisions. . . .

Mr. Serjeant JACKSON asked when it was likely that the
registration of voters (Ireland) bill would be laid on the
table ?

Lord J. RUSSELL answered that he hoped the bill would
be presented in the course of that day's sitting.
Mr. GLADSTONE asked whether any despatch had been
received from the Governor of British Guiana, on the subject
of the civil list of that colony, and, if so, whether there would
be any objection to present it, and the papers connected with
it ?

Lord J. Itusszu. answered that no despatch bad been re-
ceived at the Colonial-office on the subject from the Gover-
nor of British Guiana.

Mr. EASTHOPE asked whether the Under Secretary for
the Home Department had made inquiries, as promised, into
the case of Nathaniel Cave, and what was the result of such
investigation ?
Mr. F. MAULS answered that, having been authorised by
the Secretary of State, he had written a letter, calling upon
Mr. Mountain to explain his conduct. From that explana-
tion it appeared that Mr. Mountain had done contrary to
law; but it also appeared that the regulations of the house
of correction were most improper, because they placed par-
ties for trial on the same gaol allowance, of merely bread and
water, as parties convicted of crime, and who were suffering
the punishment of imprisonment.
Mr. EASTHOPE expressed the hope that there would be no
objection to lay that correspondence before the house. He
gave notice that he should move for its production.
On the motion of Sir E. KNATCHBULL the Lords' amend-
ments to the tithe commutation act amendment bill were
adopted.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a committee on Mr. Brad-
shaw's petition.
Mr. LABOUCHERE observed, that not being in the house
when the learned member for Dublin moved for a committee
on the claim of Mr. Bradshaw for compensation for loss sus-
tained by the levying of duty upon the manufacture of beet-
root into sugar, he begged now to state that a more unau-
thorised claim he never heard of; for what ground had Mr.
Bradshaw for supposing that the government could allow him
to manufacture the sugar free of duty, When such heavy du-
ties were levied on East India sugar for the protection of our
colonial sugar.
CoIoniaISIBTHORP asked whether it was the intention to
diminish the duty on other than West India sugar?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that lie really could not now an-
swer the question.
Mr. 0 CONNELL observed that the government bad
allowed Mr. Bradshaw to go on for more than a year and a
half, and then suddenly came upon him : decideily there was
a case for inquiry at all events, and he should press his
motion for a committee.
It was negatived by ayes, 71; noes, 90; majority against
the committee, 19.
Sir R. PEEL expressed surprise that the Canada govern-
ment (Union) bill had gone through committee on Friday.
He did not wish to interpose any delay to its passing, but he
thought it would be more satisfactory to Canada, and to
that house, if the bill received every consideration, and he
therefore hoped the noble lord would postpone it till after
the short recess at Whitsuntide, in order that au opportunity
might be afforded for its discussion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that the proper course to discuss
the details of a bill was in committee. It was far from his
wish to carry the bill hastily, but he had fixed it for Friday,
because some members wished to make observations on a
few of the clauses. He had no objection to accede to the
proposition, if it applied to the third reading, and to postpone
the third reading of the bill till after the recess.
Mr. GLADSTONE said, that he certainly considered that
the district clauses were to be further discussed. They were
brought on in the absence of the right hon. baronet, and he
considered that a further opportunity of examining them
ought to be given.
Lord J. RussELL said that the details of a bill were gene-
rally considered in committee, but he thought that any ob-
jections to the clauses might be discussed upon the motion
for the third reading of the bill.
The house then proceeded to the consideration of the
Customs' Duties, &c. bill, and to the consideration of cer-
tain amendments proposed by different members.
The report was ordered to be received on Tuesday.
,The report of the Canada GoVernment bill was' received,

and
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that he proposed to move the third
reading on Friday se'nnight.
The remaining business having been disposed of, the house
adjourned.

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TOWN COUNCIL PkOCE6INdS.

The Town Council met on Wednesday in the Town-hall ;
:he Mayor in the chair.

The proceedings of the Finance and Dock Committees, as
to the proceedings with respect to the Dock Bill, and the
Harrington and Herculaneum Dock Bills, were first read
over by the deputy town-clerk. In the proceedings of both
committees there was a copy of the following seven propo-
sals

The promoters of this bill desire to inform' the chairman
of the committee, Lord Sandon, simply the result and par-
ticulars of the communications between the parties during
the adjournment. The promoters are further desirous of in-
forming his lordship, that, on mature consideration of the
principles and objects of opposition, they propose to recom-
mend to the dock trustees and to the town-council the follow-
ing modifications of the bill :-
I.—Constitution of the Trust.—The trust to be composed
of twelve members of the town-council, selected by the
council, and twelve members elected by the dock rate-payers;
the 24 by ballot to choose a chairman (with a casting vote)
from among themselves, or ten and ten. The veto to remain
in the town-council.

2.—The dock trustees to build and have the management
of the proposed new warehouses.
3.—The private warehouse-owners to be secured by suffi-
cient schedule clauses in the bill for bona fide renting of
goods in the dock warehouses.

4.—That the Mersey river, from the Black Rock to War-
rington and Frodsham Bridges, shall be relieved from the
Liverpool dock charges ; as to Runcorn, and to such ports or
places as shall from time to time be declared legal ports of
discharge by her majesty's president of the board of trade
and the commissioners of customs, the bill, however, insur-
ing to the dock trustees such modified rates as is equitably
chargeable for the conservancy, lights, buoyage, telegraphs,
life-boat establishment, and common cost of the river; and
for the contingent use of the Liverpool docks, in stress of
weather or other occasions; full rates in case of actual use.
5.—A1l parochial-rate questions (after argument) to be de-
termined by the committee.
6.—The question of the opening the exclusive rights of the
dock trustees, involved in the passing or rejection of the
Harrington and Herculaneum bills, to be determined by the
committee; the interest of the bond-creditors to be consi-
dered and secured as parliament may determine.
7.—The price of the land for the proposed new docks to
remain as agreed by the dock trustees and town-council, and
as provided for in the bill.
On mature consideration of all the important local ques-
tions and principles involved in the bill and the opposition,
the promoters feel that the above concessions are bona fide
the utmost they can recommend to those they represZmt in
Liverpool ; to the full as Jar as will be entertained by the
dock trustees and town-council, and the utmost that can be
conceded with a just consideration of the interests of the port
and town.
If the above proposed modifications of the bill do not satisfy
the opponents, it only remains with the promoters to with-
draw the bill (should the committee support further conces-
sions), and to give such opposition as in their power to the
other dock bills referred to the committee. _ _

These proposals had received the sanction of the Dock
Committee at a special meeting held the preceding day, and
were by them recommended to the council for adoption ; and
they had also undergone discussion in the Finance Commit-
tee, but that body contented themselves with resolving that
the proposals should be laid before the council for further
discussion.

A letter dated Juue 2, from Mr: John North, solicitor to
the warehouse owners and to some of the associated bodies
opposing the bill,. was also read, stating that the committee
had met to consider the proposals, but that, as they had been
made without authority to bind the poposers of the bill, it
would serve no useful purpose to take them into considera-
tion until the town-council had decided on them.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES complained that the proposals,
which were of the utmost importance to the whole of the town
of. Liverpool, and a copy of which was in the hands of the
members of the Dock Committee, had not been placed in the
hands of every member of the council: He also thought
that time ought to be given for the consideration of matters
of such vital importance. _ . . .

The MAYOR interrupted Mr. Holmes to state, that he
(Mr. II.) might, if he had chosen, have availed himself of his
privilege and have seen the proposals, by calling at the Town-
hall, as some other members had done, in accordance with
what was stated in the council summons. His worship then
called upon Mr. Evans, as one who was in possession of the
whole details of the measure, to give, the council the neces-
sary information.
Mr. Alderman EVANS rose and said, in the first place, that
the best answer to the observation of Mr. Holmes, was,
that in the newspapers, at that moment, the whole of the pro-
posals were given at length, and surely Mr. 11. had the same
access to them as other persons.
Mr. HoDusoN—ln what paper pray ?
Mr. EVANS—In the Courier of this morning.

r. BOLTON suggested that as the Dock Committee had

Mr. HODGSON-Oh !
Mr. EVANS then proceeded to say that he conceived it
necessary to resist in toto every application for delay. Every-
body, it was said, knew their own business best, and there
were motives in asking for this delay which it was not exactly
expedient to explain. There had already been quite sufficient
delay, and there had been no good ground offered for the
granting of any further delay. He hoped that the nature of
the decision which would be come to by the council that day
would in London produce a very prompt effect; and in all
likelihood, in half the time the subject was decided here,
itwould be decided there. There was no good reason,
and no necessity, to prolong this kind of mental agony,
either for the committee in London or for parties here.
Therefore with regard to Mr. North's application, he de-
cidedly objected to granting the prayer of it. He knew not
whether he was now competent to go on with any notice of
the dock proceedings, or whether or nut the Finance Com-
mittee should take precedence of him. Would the Mayor
have the goodness to decide ?
The MAYOR said that the Finance Committee ought cer-
tainly to take the precedence, but the council would probably
WOW hear Mr. Evans's statement first.

Orpressed an opinioii,juid the Finance Committee had not,
there was a peculiar propriety in the Dock Committee taking
the precedence.
Mr. EvArts proceeded. He said that the proceedings of
the Dock Committee involved matters of greater interest to
the locality than ever was supposed to belong to any measure
which had hitherto been discussed within those walls. He
was confident that the council would be as patient and in-
dulgent as the great importance of those subjects demanded ;
but, notwithstanding, be should endeavour to be as concise
as possible in all he had to say on the subject. The council
was quite sufficiently informed of the merits and origin of the
bill now before parliament; he should therefore not attempt
to encumber the debate with the details of its progress before
it was laid before the parliamentary committee in London.
That committee, as it happened, was called the Lancashire
committee ; and comprised in its members many men most
conspicuous in this country for their wealth, their rank, their
talent, and their business habits. Still there were not many
of that committee so conversant with Liverpool, or-with the
details of trade, as to be able, as readily as gentlemen here
would be, to comprehend all the merits of the case, either what
had been urged in favour, or what had been urged against,
the bill. Notwithstanding that deficiency, and the disadvan-
tage of hearing disjointed evidence, without the summing up
of their able counsel, who did it in a luminous manner, he
believed, he was warranted in saying that they had arrived
mentally at an approval of all the leading objects of the bill.
There were some objections which, without having been spe-
cially made, they had discovered to exist in the breasts of some
few of the members of the committee, which those proposals
were intended either to meet or to remove. The leading points
of objection were the continued infliction upon all parts of the
estuary of the Mersey of the Liverpool dock-rates. There-
fore, one of the leading desiderata of the members of the par-
liamentary committee was to procure exemption for Runcorn

and other places. He would not enter into any investigation
of the merits or justice of that exemption ; it was quite suffi-
cient to say that they had ascertained that the question must
not only be entertained, but that the desire must be acceded
to. Upon a review, however, of all the consequences attend-
ing that, the deputation were perfectly satisfied that they were
giving what they could not retain ; what must of necessity be
taken from us, whenever we went to parliament for any pub-
lic improvement whatever; and, moreover, that there was an
assurance that in the future extension of the commerce of the
port there would be an ample provision for the loss that might
take place from whatever private individuals were likely to
add to the present dock means. The other leading desire in
the committee was, to make an alteration in the constitution

of the Dock Committee. They found there were noble lords
and others possessed with most erroneous ideas on this sub-
ject, and most particularly apprehensive that the docks should
give to the municipal government of Liverpool a great
political influence. To a man living at a distance, and
judging by generalities, it was not very easy to disprove
that by assertions. It was very well known here, how-
ever, that the political influence derived out of the docks was
absolutely nothing. But if that influence existed at all in
practice, it could certainly never be exercised collectively by
the council or the Dock Committee ; and if it existed, like all
other influence, it was in the hands of active and influential
individuals. But if improvement was to be stopped by all these
little considerations, he did not know how they could ever
accomplish anything ; and if, on the other hand, the influence
of the council was to be apprehended, would there not be as
much reason, if the constitution of the Dock Committee were
amended as some proposed, to fear that of the rate-payers?
Upon the very few occasions where party marshalled itself,
there was in most cases a majority on one or the other side;
and he could not conceive why it should be desirable to hand
the influence over to a body much less responsible than the
council, and more likely to abuse it than those who were lia-
ble once every month to be brought formally to account before
their constituents. It had been observed, that this question was
one which was reserved, at the passing of *the Municipal Re-
form Act, for future legislation ; and what was contemplated
by that ? Why, not so much as they were now doing. More
was never contemplated by Mr. Huskisson, or by those then
acting in the business, than mere equality—not even that, for
on all former occasions it was contemplated that the coun-
cil would have a casting vote in the Chairman, whom it had
a right to appoint.
Therefore the argument, that the ques-
tion was open as a reserved point, was more than met ; they
had more than met the views of those persons, which never
exceeded an equality of numbers, with the chairman in
addition appointed by the council. He was perfectly aware
that legislation was not for feeling, but for interest ; but he
did maintain, that where a party feeling was intimately con-
nected with public interest, it ought to have its weight. For
that council, in its character of trustees, to acquiesce in
giving a predominance to the rate-payers, was to do nothing
less than acknowledge past misgovernment—acknowledge
inferiority on their part to the Dock Committee, and at once
to concede all those high qualifications to the rate-payers.
Now, under these circumstances, he was prepared to contend,
that as the good of the community required the ascendancy
of fixed principles, which was alone to be found in municipal
government, he was warranted in adding that the council
inthepoc proposals
k whatevero mmittthaet.
e
could not, without betraying their trust, and positively sub-
o
thkoinsde, whobe-
wuloi sub-
mitting
gp
ltaoc ei tnlviaats invasion,
y listenin
y
on occasions
up,and
of tbi s
Theretwee n thosew-as a
who wide
werediffn difference, re
callede,
on to give
be compelled to
were attempting to acquire. You may be refused an attempted
acquisition without disgrace; but you c annot
give up anything, where no case is made out to warrant it,
without degrading yourselves. Now, to call on the trustees
it
to hand over the virtual command of the docks to a body
might be deemed an indication of
whose very efforts to get
their future intention of opposingthat council, would be, he
conceived, a perfect act of suicide. In arriving at a perfect
equality, he did conceive that they were putting a good deal
to hazard ; but he expected that they should get, in the bill,
more than an equivalent for that. Besides, the principle of
equality might be deemed a consent and agreement, not
dissent or degradation. They must be naturally led to
institute a comparison between the council and what were
called the rate-payers. There were noble lords and others
who were abused with clap-trap words about political assem-
blies and mercantile bodies, and the necessity of a division
between them. Now, that council was, and ever must be,
a great mercantile body. Liverpool never could have a
metropolitan character ; it would always be dependent upon
commerce; and therefore that body must be an assembly,
with moderate exceptions, of merchants and rate-payers.
Therefore they (the council) contained within themselves all
the mercantile knowledge, all the interests of the rate-
payers, with the responsibility superadded of being the repre-
sentatives of the community at large. There had been much
observation about the rights of the rate-payers. There
could be no rights ; they had no more earthly rights than the
people who travel on the roads or canals. The only manner
in which they could be spoken of was, whether they were
not the best machinery that could be employed—whether it
was not expedient to use them? lie himself was a rate.
payer; but did he pay the dues out of his own pocket? No;