The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-05-18 00:00:00

n2F.:3,5.4✓.

cent., anal in those places wher.t land was cheapest land ,cas
worth from-thirty to thirty-three years' purchaSe, and in some
instances he knew it to be woith forty years' purchase. , All the
difference, therefore, would go into the' pockets of the state for
secular purposes, such as county charges, &c. It was for this
reason that the learned Member for Dublin was principally
pleased with the resolutions. Why did not the government dissi-
pate the doubt which now enveloped the question, by leaving th
discussion on these resolutions open to fair and free debate?
What right had the government to chain hon. members to the
principle of appropriation, established in the resolution of 1835?
Every hon. member was entitled to come free and unshackled to
the consideration Of the subject, without being tied doWn to the
principle of appropriation, to which so, large a portion of the
-house strenuously objected. He should be wrong in entering
at large into the question of whether there would or would not be
a surplus. It Was perfectly well known that there was a large
body in this house, as well as of those attached to the church of
England out of doors, that would never yield to the question of
appropriation. It was perfectly well known that the tithe ques-
tion could not be settled while they hung upon it the resolutions
of 1835 as a necessof ingredient.- He therefore arraigned them
as the parties who were seeking to prevent this question from
being settled—who 'themselves preserved in the country the
apple of discord, by reason of refusing to withdraw the resolu-
tions which kept up the discord. (Hear.) Let therri introduce
any resolution or bill, which should contain the assertion of such
principles as they though fit. Let them be discussed then—but
let them not he said, as free agents, to enter into the discussion
of any bill Whilst they were clogged with these objectionable
resolutions.
Mr. LA SCE ILES followed, on the same side. Mr. Redington
delivered a wild and unmeaning harrangue, in 'favour of the
appropriation clause, or rather of voluntary principle. Mr.
Townrey expressed his determination to support government.
Mr. Young spoke in favour of Sir Thomas Acland's motion.
Mr. l3enett renewed his oath of allegiance to the whigs—but
but protesseil himself unable to understand Lord John RUssell's
resolutions.

Lord SANnoN did not rise for the purpose, in any degree of
impugning the motives of the hon. gentleman who had just sat
down, and he fully and entirely believed that the opinion .t
which he had arrived was as honest and as conscientious as it

was possible for any man to exercise. He rose for the purpose
of vindicating himself and his hon. friend, the member for North
Devon, who sat beside him, from the charge of bringing for-
ward this motion merely as a trial of party strength, involving
no practical consequences. If he realty felt that the resolution
which it was now sought to rescind was as obsolete and effete as
the .h in. lentleman opposte considered it, or as effete as the
act ittkii-tichard 11., whiclesas quoted by another t 5,44., gentle-
man last night, he should certainly never have thought fit to
interpose an obstacle to the noble lord's resolutions the motion
of his hon. friend, " But," continued the noble lord, " this
question obsolete ! obsolete! why, the resolutions are only three
years old altogether. (Loud cheers.) These were the constant
boast of the gentlemen who brought them forward, and this is
the first year in which the principle which they embody is not
avowed. It is said that the proceeding did not take place in
the same parliament; the objection is purely technical—(cheers)
—the party which brought forward the appropriation clause is
the same, and there is the same ministry, and the motion to re-
scind it is opposed by gentlemen who have re-asserted their
abomination almost of the Church of Ireland as an institution.
(Cheers from the opposition.) his surprising, then, that we
should view with jealousy the continuance of these resolutions
on the journals ? Obsolete, sir ! Idle! Why, we find the hon.
gentleman opposite looking into the resolutions now proposed
by the noble lord, and exerting all the energies of his practises
mind in trying to ascertain, if he could, whether the principle of
appropriation was involved in them or not; and are we to he
taunted—are the clergy of Ireland to be aspersed, because they
thought that they saw the principle of appropriat ion contained in
them ? ( Hear.) I believe that that principle is not here in sub-
stance, but in shadow. What, I ask, was the object with which
the sixth of these resolutions was preserved ? I believe it was
to delude the people of Ireland, and to enable their friends
and leaders to tell them that the principle of appropriation
was still preserved, although it was not distinctly marked. out
in the government measure. What other object can you point
out in your sixth resolution ? It says, "'That it is the opinion
of this committee, that the rent-charges for ecclesiastical tithe
should be appropriated by law to certain local charges now
defrayed out of the consolidated fund and to education, the
surplus to form part of the consolidated fund." I see by
this resolution that von have still a lingering desire to per-
suade the people of Ireland that there will be a surplus, and
that it shall be devoted to other than ecclesiastical purposes.
How else is it that you calve to talk of a surplus, and of local
charges, unless you wish to make it appear that like the prin.
'ciple of appropriation is retained, though the substance is gone,
and it is found, after a curious examination, not to be in ex-
istence!. (Continued cheering.) The hon. 'gentleman who
entered upon that examination asserts the principle of appro-
priation to be obsolete, but I suspect that there are many mem-
bers on his side of the house who would not find it quite conve-
nient to avow to their constituents in Ireland that the principle
of appiopriation is out of date. We are met by the taunt that
this motion is idle, and that, as the hon. gentleman said, we are
raising cock robin for the purpose of killing him again. (a
laugh.) But, sir, it is no light or trifling matter to shake a
great part of the property of Ireland to its foundations. (Cheers.)
It is ne light matter for the ministers of the crown to have en-
gaged the House of Commons to assert that the surplus of the
property of the church should be devoted to objects not con-
nected with ecclesiastical institutions, and that no settlement of
the tithe question can be considered final or satisfactory which
does not embody that principle. It is no light matter for mi-
nisters to •have told an excited population this; • and in my
opinion the only way of restoring the value of the property
placed in such imminent hazard, is by having these appropria-
tion resolutions rescinded and disavowed." (Heat, and loud
cheers.) The noble lord proceeded to obserie, that those who
represented the church were now called • upon to make a great
sacrifice, to make a trial of the state as a paymaster, and to
sever their interests from the land with which the clergy had
hitherto been connected. They were also called upon to enter
into a proposition for extending municipal corporations to Ire-
land, which many conceived would seriously endanger the in-
terests of the Irish church, and ought they not to see that the
Church was placed in a position of safety, and secured from furs
-lbws <.ssani,,r-7 --Its, to the ch....* -
tablisronent of Ireland, it was ttteir (the oppositioics) desire to
erase from the-statute-hook that fatal resolution, the pernicious
consequences of which had been denounced at the moment to
honourable gentlemen on the other side, as fettering future
legislation, and interposing insuperable obstacles to the final
settlement of this question. (Hear, hear.) Did they not now
feel the force of that practical inconvenience, which was at the
present moment, one of its worst visible consequences—that not
only in argument, but in fact, the most serious obstacles on,
peded the definitive arrangement of this great question ? It bad
not been his (Lord Sandon's) intention to enter into this quess •
tion at large; but he had been stimulated by the remarks of his
hon. friend who last addressed the house into an effort to re-
establish himself, and those with whom he acted, in this matter,
in the good opinion of the house; and to prove not only that
this was not a mere party questien, but that the resolution which
it was their object to induce the house to rescind was neither an
idle nor an obsolete resolution; that it was not at this moment
withoutits practical effect; and that, if they abstained from
rescinding it, it was in vain for them to expect that security fur
the Irish church .establishment without which it was impossible
for them to proceed to the consideration of introducing any
change into the system of municipal 'government in Ireland.
(Hear, hear.) Entertaining; these views, he had no difficulty
in supporting the motion of his hon. friend.
Mr. Want, rehearsed these principles in regard to church
property, which have long been associated with his name. He
declared that church property possessed none of the attributes
of property —that the Roman Catholic ought to be the established
religion of Ireland; and, (borrowing the phrase from Mr. Car-
lyles History of the 'French Revolution) he styled the established
church of Ireland "a political lie."
Lord TEIGNMOUTH grappled with Mr. Ward's statements;
and showed, that viewed even on temporal grounds, the esta-
blished church of Ireland had been a blessing to tout country.
Mr. Baccew followed Lord Teigninouth in a speech, to which
the house, ( valuing it at its real worth) paid not the'slightest at-
tention.

Mr. SUIA iv, after entei ing into an investigation of the princi-
ples of the Irish tithe-composition scheme, called the attention
of the house to the extraordinary position of the Queen's govern-
ment, in regard to the established church of Ireland. That
church had been designated by the Irish Secretary, "a badge
of conquest over the Irish people!" Now, Mr. Shaw begged
to ask, whether, in that functionary, such language was not
highly unbecoming?
Mr. O'CoNNEt.i., in the usual strain. The able summary in
the Times says of the sribch of this learned gentleman, " We
had the misgovernment of seven centuries: the Scotch, on the
mountain side, compelling, with their broad swords, the esta-
blishment of the religion of the majority; the Irish corporation
bill ; and the general topics of justice to Ireland. The Mer-
chants' Hall had convinced him that so far as professions of re-
form went. whigs and tories were both acting the same part,
and it should not he forgotten that some of the tories who were
then sitting opposite hint had been at least in profession whigs.
(Ministerial cheers ) The difference between the two parties
was, that the tories professed reform to a certain point. lip to
that point the whigs were prepared to grant reform, but the to-
ries were not. (Oh, oh.) The quest ion to be decided that night
was, "shall Ireland be governed by a faction for its own interests
and against the interests of its people?" (Derision flom the
opposition benches.) "I thank you," said Mr. O'Connell, "for
that shriek ; (the same noise trim the same quarter continued)
—many a shout tat insolent domination—(continued uproar)
despicable and contemptible .as it is,—(uproar continued) have
I heard against toy countm (Uproar continued, during which
Mr. O'Connell, vs ith *lifted, fist and great violence of manner,
Uttered several sentences which were inaudible in the gallery.)
The_SPEAKER was at last obliged to interfere and call the
house to order.

Mr. O'CoNNELL continued.—Let them shout. It is a sense-
less yell. (Confusion worse confounded.) It is the spirit of the
party that has placed you there. (Uproar.) Ireland will hear
your shrieks. (Continued uproar.) Yes; you may want us
again. ( Roars of laughter.) What would Waterloo have been
if we had not been there? (Ministerial cheers, and opposition
laughter.) I ask not that question for your renowned com-
mander-in-chief, who is himself an Irishman, hut for the hardy
soldiery of Ireland who fought lhe battle for him. ("Question."
and laughter from the opposition.) I say again, that is the
question. (Hear.) The question.is, shall the people of Ireland
be amalgamated with the people of England ? Refuse to receive
us into that amalgamation, and abide the consequences. (Cries
of "hear, hear," from the opposition benches.) Sneer at tire
as you like—(laughter from the same quarter)—hut recollect
that I speak the voice of millions— (renewed laughter)—who
will hea: again of the base insult offered to me this even-
ing. '( Loud cheers from the Irish members, accompanied by
an observation from , Mr. Grattau, which was not heard in
the gallery, but which created a titter from the opposition.)
Why should not the son of Grattan say—t hear the cheers and
laughter (frowned the remainder of the sentence.) The English
people, too. are auditors of your taunt. You tell us you can
command a majority. I say to you, in reply, carry your bribery
a little farther, and you will really have a majority. (Question,
question.) More extensive brittert than you practised at the
last election never yet was practised in this world, and the high-
est amongst you shrink from its investigation. (Loud cries of
"Question.") Do the hon. gentlemen opposite wish to know
what-the question is ? It is how shall Ireland be governed, fur
it is impossible to think that such a paltry motion as that which
the honourable member for Devon proposed and the Iron. mem-
ber for Warwickshire seconded is .the real question. That, I
admit, is nominally the question. Is it so really ? The resolu-
tion yon want to rescind is this, and recollect that it is not only
the people of En. land and Ireland, but the people of • the whole
civilized world that are attending to the question which you have
this evening raised. From the camp of Don Carlos to the throne
of Nicholas, the whole world is listening to your debates and
will overwhelm you with contempt y hen they hear the mighty
reasons which are urged to prevent you from consolidating- two
great nations into one, and from forming them into one united
empire. Ai to the good intentions of Sir T. Acland, be totally
dented them. At all events, there was a proverb alluding to a
very hot place, said to be payed with good intentions. Sir E.
Wilm,'t's course pleased him u.n hotter. " 1-leaven preserve
us," piously ejticulated the learned member, " from these Eng-
lish baronets !" The property of the church, added he, was
given oroinally for masses and other uses which yon call super-;
stitions. 'The doctrine you thought bad, 1,0 the sonnet ,
Your protestants gentry have great compassion tor West Indian
slaves--none for their fish countrymen. I wish they ,Y ere ne-
gross, then they wou'd have an advocate., To reSeind the np ;