The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

Jareh 2, 1847.

CHURCH ESTABLISHMENTS : - IMPORTANT

DISCUSSION.

On Friday night, a public discussion took place at the
'Concert-hall, Lord Nelson-street, relative to the con-
nexion between the Church and the State ; and the im-
portance of the subject for debate, and its bearing upon
various religious opinions, as well as the fact that the dis-
lnitants were considered by their respective supporters to
be able and eloquent men, (and justly so in one instance
at least) imparted to the 'proceedings, or the anticipation
of them, a more than usual interest. The demand for
tickets (requisite for admission,) was so great, some days
'Previously that four times the quantity, had there been
Toom'for a larger auditory, could have been disposed of.
As it was there was not a ticket to be obtained after Wed-
nesday, the greater portion having been disposed of in a
few hours after the announcement of the meeting reached
the public ear. The body of the room, the gallery, and
every „available place, even for standing room, were
crowded to excess.
The disputants were Edward Mali, Esq., of London,
the gifted editor of the Nonamformist, the organ of a
large section of dissenting communities ; and the Rev. ,
Joseph Baylee, a clergyman of the Church of England,
nl Birkenhead, an accomplished linguist, and a close
reasoner on any subject which he has hitherto taken up,
especially on controversial topics. The general impres-
se.en therefore was that it would be " Greek meeting
'reek," and hence the interest excited. The origin of
the discussion may be briefly conveyed. Mr. Miall and
his friends lately held a public meeting here to advocate
the propriety of abolishinc, the connexion between the
Church and the State. The meeting happened to be
ratherturbulent, and Mr. Miall took occasion to challenge
any clergyman in Liverpool, or the neighbourhood, to
Meet him in discussion on the point at issue. Mr. Baylee
accepted the challenge ; preliminaries were arranged, and
the discussion commenced as stated.
On the platform were the Revs. Fielding Ould, D.
Thom,
J. R. Connor, W. Maynard, D. S. Wylie, D.
_thorn, D. J. Hirsch, W. M. Falloon, D. Anderson, M
Crump, Roberts, M. Beswick, H. L. Brown,. Wm.
Clark, Wolsley, D. R. Stephens, G. H. Hackm,&c..
ChaS. Robertson, Esq., acted as chairman for Mr..Miall ,
and the Rev. Mr. Pollock for Mr. Baylee, Mr, Lockston,
Independent Minister, was chosen as Moderator by mutual
consent of both parties.
Mr. Lo
mmeic opened the business of the evening. He
lamented that one of the laity had not come forward to
preside, owing, perhaps, to the holding of another meeting
that evening of The Health of Towns' Association. He
could not, therefore do less than stand by his dear friend,
Mr. Ihylee. The simple question was—in what way shall
the the Power of the Gospel of Christ be made most conducive
welfare of men, and most confOrmable to the will
of n
- -od. Both the argumentors, he rejoiced to say, had
agreed to adhere to the law and the testimony—each re-
cognising Scriptures as the basis of Christian Doctrine.
The Rev. Mr. BAYLEE then offered up an appropriate
Prayer.
Mr. Councillor ROBERTSON then introduced Mr. Miall,
who was received with much applause. After the two dis-
Putants had shaken hands
Mr. MIALL said, he was impressed with the solemn
nature of the devotional engagement into which he had
entered, and considered it his duty to preserve the cour-
tesy and meekness of a christian. He was prepared to
receive any remark from the other side which a sense of
duty might lead his reverend opponent to make. He
rejoiced that his opponent and himself were substantially
agreed as to what constituted true christianity. He re-
garded it as that manifestation of the mind of God through
the Mediator, by which the great ruler of the universe
seeks to win back to his government those who have re-
volted from it—to make them, instead of rebels, willing
subjects—to bring them into hearty subjection to his moral
and spiritual government—to unite them—to harmonise
their spirits, their will, to himself and to his own, so that
itt the highest sense it may be said of Him and them, that
cey are one. He believed it was not opposite to the will
e' God as laid down in the Scriptures, nor opposed to the
greral tendency of the Christian scheme, that religion
,rird be maintained and extended by voluntary efforts.
chur"vas the first effort he would make—to support the
ex,es, to maintain the expenses of Divine worship, and
'earl the Christian Kingdom, by missionary enter-
Prise
of tlis, he conceived, was due to us, independent
of tuke state, and in obedience to the voluntary impulse
eo he Minds of men. Such an effort was perfectly
Limpatible with the whole genius of Christianity. In
yerPool, there were many churches of the Estab-
lishment) supported by voluntary contributions ; and
England'
felt assured that the effort made by the Church of
pigland to extend religion over the world was supported
0)' voluntary contributions. The Scriptures enjoined upon
them to go forth in the exercise of voluntary effort, whe-
ther by personal exertion, or by pecuniary contribution,
and to stretch out to a wanting and a perishing world
those means and ordinances, which would not be sus-
ined but for their intervention. According to the New
Testament, in respect to the extension of religion, all that
gas. Positive leant to voluntary effort. Jesus Christ sent
."' his disciples among their brethren, the Jews, to
:each the Word of God, and laid 'upon them the com-
fra44, " Freely ye have received ; freely give." In fine,
Let express precepts the Apostle gave to his converts,
to tnem that are taught communicate in all good things
them that teach." From this and other examples, he
a, the to the conclusion that, so far as the New Testament
-reetion upon this point was positive—so far it leant very
t•nsiderably to the voluntary principle. He would take
general spirit and scope of the sacred writings, and lie
l'`,°aglit the conclusion must be, from analogy, that the
b,„',Del should be voluntarily dispensed. Owing to the
fi.''oural corruption of men's hearts, and their alienation
a?, and
taliconsequnt aversion to, prejudices rinciples of
sristianity, was kely that their should be
overcome, or that the hardness of their hearts should be
softened aby applying to them the rigour of human
taw ? IC were best to quarter ourselves upon the
resources of depraved men, in order that Christian
opinion might be promoted and maintained. It
Would serve no good purpose to trample upon the preju-
dices of human nature. It was opposed to, the object in
view to set aside the will of men in erecting our machi-
!erY, and then endeavour to direct that machinery so as
,1-43 bring the will into entire and cordial consent. They
r,(l all that could be accomplished to reclaim man. It
itself in an emphatic manner to all manner of
humangartered
beings. The whole tenor of Christianity was in-
thrtered with, when they relied upon the compulsory sys-
ie That system did not make its appeal to the sympa-
to,73 of man, but to the arm of the magistracy—it rested
1/41: 11Pon the intrinsic verity atd force of Divine truth,
thlP9n parliamentary law, and upon those appointed by
• legislature for carrying out the acts of that law. It
0,11 lntirely based upon physical—the ultimate rock upon
len it rested • it brought,iuto the warfare of moral and
• '
tt) t], a evils carnal weapons. It opposed itself directly
that'a best sympathies of human nature, and stirred up
sre,ellirit of resistance that men always felt when they
tory .sellsible of being exposed to injustice. The compul-
Yariolpteln was opposed to Christianity. There were.
°Pinions on the question of the kind of religious
Ales a,',-Llon that ought to be given by the state to the neo-
% it who were to decide what that instruction should
lest it were the duty of " the powers that be "to se-
le he religious instruction that shall be supported by
allberal pay of the people, then was it the duty of a
✓ery in all cases to submit ?If not, they came to this
z,lcurious contradiction, that it was the duty of the civil
blrates, in some instances, to command their subjects,
adtbnl e cases, when it was not the duty of the subjects to
J,
04ow.could the magistrate decide as to the various
Cli;‘
of various parties ?It would be admitted even by
°Peet
aarisel Englandmen,that great errors might in this re-
tev.ed it.upposible to carry out the pre-
sellsuttocritwhi%Coereu
ator. muosti c.c. He believed it did dis-
maintainingytiatictatls talked about
the impossibigty of
b▪
ut for resort to a compulsory system.
zetscifevreeNgio",
such
lindividuals were doing their own' church a great injury.
tie believed if it were left entirely independent of state
;°,2lliection' cast upon its own resources, the piety, energy,
n7n, zeal, love, of its own members, it would flourish
e,.elniccessfully, vigorously, triumphantly, than it has
teeM; 'fte since its connection with the state. After some
te sin behalf of the courtesy that ought to be ob-
ItZed in such discussions, so that sound argument might
t Aktt ° truth-, he concluded by saying—, • For my own
Diet' Ido not believe it. I believe a large portion of so-
in hi:s sufficiently candid, unbiassed, and unprejudiced
toMatter, to listen to truths urged upon both sides,
illtietl,gh, examine, and come to that conclusion which
4 ~,u-mk will be sustained in the judgment of the Last
paid (His hour having expired, Mr. Miall retired amid
l'heevahle applause.)
(Sk Baylee a kev. Mr. PoELocit briefly introduced the Rev.
I, s a faithful minister of the gospel.
aat h. Rev.- Mr. BAYLEE expressed his disappointment
~ehl,s. talented opponent had not supported his argu-
,llie,,,?y chapter and verse, which lie (Mr. B.) had
etek7n• He and his opponent agreed as to the cha-
dirli 01 true Christianity, but he (Mr. B.) varied in
rid from the deductions drawn. According to the
ve4:stamerit, God's appointment, in those days, were in
t;:ertaiflf the compulry principle, as the were now.
°ley much might be'done by voluntary means, and
11:eilt fere under an obligation •to do' so. The Old Testa-
t
tLtts which his Opponent did not allude) abounded in
ere support of religion as supported by the state, and
there
‘▪ 1-,ere nanny passages in the New Testament having
„ri„4.119 tendency. He quoted from the 9th chapter of
‘ad ".Even so hath the Lord ordained," Ste. ;
e.,tero„,"-I, that if one passage made that law, there was an
i'pooli-et Principle applicable to all men and all times. His
Voluntary
had said, that the leaning of Scripture was to
LI? Qtleinadzipnciple, but what passages bore this out ?
truth
su that the compulsory principle rested upon
of Engdartld by Parliamentary law. The
9wever, believed it
no act of
111-47111, ent for its rights. He believed it to be the true
taiye,a ; and he openly professed, that if he lived in
tti,4e shonld consider himself bound in conscience to
h - the support of the Roman Catholic. Church, on the
iv4lstiat,
uncertain
Ibwu t
such
axe Principle o rendering tribute -No • .
iere tribute
tvelleveti' and custom, to whom custom was due." He
e•
co tile' word of God
eerti,..", tell what it proved.;
was
nthotatsotluienrcee
lastt ee Iv:EY as that stated by-Ins opponent ; that, in fact,
nali-st_nd. difficulty in the matter. He would he the
gland Compel any person to belong to the Church of
(„),'‘te,,,l•-1; but he would contend that it was the duty of
Oettoeen to. provide for the support of a church by state
sleets' nts and pecuniary endowments. Ile could prove
lPtilre that compulsory payments in support of a
tt of 11,,,reh' were in accordance with the law of -Moses
0441. khrist. This was consistent with God's holy
h4ll 'which he, and those with him, looked for
I:glatide state, was what the articles of the Church of
mPide,st,rictly enjoined. Many thought that we should
tt ei poi py what were called rights of conscience, on
at be believed many errors were abroad. Let
okilnembered that we should not hereafter be judged
111 eon • tirr
t sciences, but by God 'so word alone. • Crimes'
Oeeie_e committed—and had been—under the plea of
; but no man had a right to oppose his con-
'Kl the established law of God, " Unto the pure