The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-06-14 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD, TUESDAY, JUNE 14, 1553.

when I called upon them, that they could not settle my
account then, but it would be settled in a short time ;
Mr. Buckmaster did not give him any hope of the money
being paid at any particular time. Thos. Williams ordered
something at his house.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE : What was the nature of the
order you received from Thomas Williams ?
Mr. RonwELL objected to this question.

The Committee decided that CVilliams's agency was
established, and that the examination might proceed.
Mr. Bridge continued : he supplied the parties with ale
and spirits, and some of the persons who partook he him-
self knew to be voters : Williams told me to go to the ex-
tent of .£5 on the polling day : it is a rough neighbour-
hood, and he was obliged to give refreshments to the
other side to save his house : about 20 or 30 persons came
with the canvassers. .

Sylvester Mathewson, who keeps the Railway Hotel,
Great Howard-street, said a committee sat at his house ;
Mr. Williams ordered some rooms from him before the
election ; he had not yet been paid, although he had sent
in his bill to Mr. Williams; the bill amounted to £6O;
he charged £2 2s. for the rooms per week ; the charge
was for eight weeks, £l6 165., and the rest was for re-
freshments supplied to canvassers, cabmen, some of the
committee, pole-carriers, on the day of the nomination
and election ; he applied several times for payment to
Mr. Williams ; he supplied any person, without distinc-
-lion of party, without pay ; he had applied to Mr. Buck-
master, in North John-street, Mr. Nicholson, and Mr.
Bold,—the last-mentioned of whom said he had no doubt
witness would be paid in time.
Jas. Clegg, keeperof thePontack, in Christian-street, had
one of his rooms ordered by Mr. Oliver Hatch three
months previous to the election. The canvassers met in
this room. Mr. Birchen, a furniture-broker, was one of
them. The canvassers brought their friends there. Had
seen Mr. Hatch writing in a book. On the morning of
the election refreshments were provided for the canvas-
sers. Drink was supplied during the day to Mackenzie
and Turner's voters—a great many of them paying for it.
Received no orders on the day of the election from'
any one but the canvasser. His bill, amounting to
about .E-10, was sent in to Mr. Hatch, and was paid
after the election. Does not remember seeing any voter
in the room on the polling day. Saw persons with the
canvassers, but did not know any of them. He did not
see Joseph Grooby at his house previous to the election.
He received no orders to give drink to any one. £25 out
of the £4O was for the use of the room.

Thomas Wilson, before examined, voted from the Pon-
tack, where he went more than once before the election,
at the solicitation of Mr. Birchall, and got his glass, like
the others.

This closed the proceedings of to-day.

SATURDAY, JUNE 11.

The first witness called was Oliver Hatch, who deposed .
I am a merchant. I acted as secretary in St. Anne's
Ward. I began so to act about twelve years ago. I
acted as secretary at the last election. I was a member
of the car committee at the last election. There were
about three members who attended—Mr. Lowe, Mr.
Cooper, and myself. We met at the Constitutional-office,
in John-street. There was a regular business room, which
is a large one, there, and an anti-room. That was the
central office. Those were the only rooms there that I
know of. I believe another room was rented to me, but
I knew nothing about it. I know Mr. Buckmaster. He
did not attend the meetings of the car committee. I did
not communicate to him what the committee did. I
don't know what other members may have done. Our
business was to arrange for the cars, to carry up the
voters to the poll on the polling-day. I cannot say when
I first went to the central office on the subject of the elec-
tion business. I was there most days. I can't say I
communicated with any one when I went to the office. I
did not go on any particular business. I took in my re-
turns of the canvass, and communicated with whoever I
saw there. I do not recollect that I communicated conti-
nually with Mr. Buckmaster concerning the state of my
canvass in St. Anne's Ward. 1 left my returns with him.
I cannot say why I gave the returns to him rather than to
any one else. I communicated with whoever I saw. The
rooms were up stairs. I went into that room to see the
voting-cards. I did not get the voting cards there. They
were sent through the post-office. I was present at the
meeting of the Ist April. I was on the nomination com-
mittee, the procession committee, which was a separate
committee from the car committee. The members of the
committee were Mr. Crowther, the chairman, Mr. J. B.
Cooper, Mr. Wadham, and some others. We engaged
the bands for the procession. I saw the estimates for the
expense of the bands. That was when the parties were
called in. I did not see the estimates before. There
were no papers sent in at all. The parties were called in
individually, and asked what they would supply bands
for. I am not aware that any one took a note of the
amounts mentioned. I was in the chair. There was no
agreement signed. There were agreements for the hire
of the cars for the conveyance of the voters in St. Anne's
Ward. The central committee had the return of these
arrangemeets for providing the cars sent into them. The
number of cars required they obtained from me, from my
canvass. I managed the canvass. I never called the
attention of the committee to the inconvenience of having
a placard outside to the effect that there was a committee,
where there was in fact none. I don't remember there
were placards all over the town stating who were the
chairman. vice-chairman, and secretary for each ward.
Mr. T. Parker, Mr. Holden, and Mr. Birchen were can-
vassers ; so was Mr. Clegg ; also Mr. Hohb. They
took districts as canvassers. Mr. Nicholson may have
come in at the meetings of the canvassers, but I am
not aware that he had a district. The canvassers met,
almost every evening, at eight o'clock. I made arrange-
ments with -Nir. Clegg for the use of his house. I
got £4O from Mr. Bold to pay Clegg. I received from
Clegg a written account. I paid it. I kept it for some
time myself until last November, when I' destroyed it,
having paid him another account. I knew the petition
against the return had been presented ; but I' never had
the remotest idea that, with 1,400 majority, there was
any probability of that petition being prosecuted. I gave
Mr. Bold a receipt for the £4O. The municipal election
takes place on the Ist of November;, and I generally get
in the bills as soon as possible afterwards and discharge
them. I keep the bills from one election to another. I
always keep the last bill. I told Mr. Clegg I should want
his rooms as usual. There was no particular agreement
for the hire of his rooms. If I had them for a few days
only I should give him £5 ; but, if 1 had them for
thirteen weeks, I should pay £25. There were two rooms,
one smaller than the other. I got writing-paper from the
central office ; also, the canvass-books and burgess-roll.
I paid the whole of the- expenses ; not only Mr. Clegg's
£4O, but the whole. There was some car-hire that I
paid for, but I did not pay for the cars employed by the
car committee of the ward. I also paid for the refresh-
ments to the canvassers on the day of election. I paid
the travelling expenses of several persons, and for sta-
tionery. I paid persons for carrying flags on the nomina-
tion-day. There were sixty or seventy persons engaged to
carry flags. I took down the names of the persons who
carried flags when the flags were delivered to them. I can-
not tell who made the arrangement for the distribution of
the flags. The persons who carried flags came for them
at night. One man could not carry one flag. Some of them
required six or eight men to carry them. There were not
sixty or seventy flags of that description. I destroyed the
list of the flag-bearers at the time I destroyed Clegg's ac-
count. I destroyed it because I felt sure that, after the
lapse of so long a time, no further claim would be made for
the five shillings. I paid them five shillings a-day out of
the money I got from Mr. Bold. There were no painted'
staves with orange ribbons attached to them in our ward.
I would not have allowed such things. Nothing of the
sort was arranged in other parts of the town. The chair-
man set his face against it. I believe an intimation was
made by some Orangemen that they wished to carry their
colour. There were a great many paper flags carried in
our ward by boys and other persons, but no payment was
made to them. I received £2O from Mr. Bold on the day
of the nomination. I saw him at his own office. He gave
it me in sovereigns. After that I received £lO from him.
I was at the Pontack the greater part of the following day.
Canvassers were there superintending the transmission of
voters in cars to the poll. Mr. Birchall and Mr.. Manzer
were amongst them. I saw no eating and drinking going
on at the Pontack during the day. When 1 went down
stairs there were a great number of persons about the bar
and other places. There was no drinking at all in the
room where I was, and I did not see any drinking going
on in other parts of the house when the canvassers were
present. I did not order the refreshments which were
charged in Clegg's bill. Clegg provided them. The bill
was divided thus : £25 for hire of the room, and £l5 for
refreshments. The canvassers consumed the £l5 worth
of refreshments, I considered the charge extremely mo-
derate. I consumed some myself. Some of the can-
vassers grumbled because they had not enough to eat and
drink, but I cannot say who they were. Mr. Birchall,
Mr. Holden, Mr. Manger, and Mr.. Nicholson consumed
refreshments. I did not ask Mr. Clegg to provide the
refreshments. He did so of himself. I considered that
Clegg would provide refreshments for all persons who
acted as canvassers and in bringing voters up. I heard
no order given at all for beer to be carried out by the can-
vassers.
Cross-examined by Mr. M. SMITH : I gave no autho-
rity whatever to Mr. Clegg to supply refreshments to
voters ; nor did I mean, in paying this bill, to sanction
refreshments to voters. There were many persons en-
gaged as canvassers whom I do not recollect. If they
had gone home to their houses for refreshments much
time would have been lost. I received £BO and £2O from
Mr. Bold, but he gave me no orders to provide refresh-
ments for any one. 1 was manager of this ward at the
election. The canvassers did nothing else than canvass.
I was my own secretary and committee. I was on the
car committee, and on the nomination committee. The
bandmasters were introduced one by one. 1 was in the
room when Grooby was called in. I believe I myself
mentioned him to the committee. He came to me some
time before the election, and asked me it I would employ
him and the band, and I said I would recommend him to
the committee. When he came to me, I never asked him
about his vote. As he had always voted for one party at
the municipal election, I felt sure he would vote for one
candidate on that occasion. I recommended the com-
mittee to employ him. The estimate for Joliffe and
Stubbs' bands were £l5 each. Grooby's was £l2; but
the committee decided on paying him £l5, as it might
create dissatisfaction and unpleasantness if Grooby came
to discover that the others were paid £l5. Mr. Trontbeck
stated that ; and when Grooby came he was told that he
should have £l5, the same as the others.
To Mr. WILLIAMS : I don't remember that Stubbs or
Joliffe was told that Grooby offered the services of his
band for £l2.
To Mr. M. SMITH : Mr. Bremner did not tell Grooby
that, if ho would vote forMackerizie and Turner, ho should
have £l5 (that was £1 a man) for his band, instead of the
£l2, which was the amount of his estimate.
To Mr. WILLIAMS : Grooby supplied two bands, I be-
lieve. I don't know how many bands were engaged.
To Mr. BALL: I was present when Grooby was called,
and I think he said he had two bands.
To the CHAIRMAN : Mr. Bremner did not say that
Grooby's estimate was £l2 for fifteen men ; but, if he
would give his vote, he should have £1 a man.
To Mr. M. SMITH : Nothing whatever of the sort was
said ; and if Grooby has stated that there was, he tells
what is false. Grooby was not asked if his band could
play " Croppies lie down" and " Boyne Water." The
chairmiin would not allow anything of the sort. The
same resolution was come to by the committee as to party
tunes that they had arrived at with regard to Ortlne flags;

They determined not to allow,any party tunes to be played,
and their reason was that a number of Orangemen had
applied for permission to join the procession. The can-
vass lasted about thirteen weeks in my ward. Somebody
told me that my name was on the central committee, but
I never acted on that committee, or gave authority to any
one to place my name upon it.
Re-examined by Mr. MACAULAY : Of the three band-
masters I employed two ; estimated the charge at £l5,
and the third at £l2. I sent word to Grooby to attend
the committee. Grooby was a voter in St. Anne's Ward.
I don't remember seeing him at the central office after-
wards, waiting there whilst I was present. I might. I
cannot say whether I did or did not. I don't remember
that I came out, and, shaking my head, told him that we
could not give him employment. I believe, after he
applied to me, I told him to meet me at the central office.
I recommended him to the committee, and put his name
down for the band. I put his name down, in order that
when the bands were engaged his should be one of them.
I remember Groo by coming to me at my office, and ask-
ing me to have his band employed, and I said I would
bear it in mind. Gribben, another band-master, was not
employed, because it was known to the committee that he
belonged to the opposite party. He was not in the room
five minutes, and he was told that he was not wanted.
Grooby was the only man that I took any interest in.
Grooby offered his band first for £l2 ; then the others
came in and offered theirs for £l5 each. I said nothing
to the other two. Nobody asked Grooby if he could play
" Croppies, lie down ;" nor was that question put to
Joliffe and Stubbs.

To the CHAIRMAN : When Groohy came to me first, he
said he wanted employment generally. That was before the
band was mentioned. I told him I would bear it in mind.
To ➢lr. WILLIAMS : I was told that some of the can-
vassers could not get refreshments at Clegg's, and that
they were obliged to go to the other side of the street to
procure them.

To Mr. BALL : Several of the canvassers were indepen-
dent persons, and were not paid. There were others,
however, who were paid.
To Mr. FRESHFIELD : Many persons volunteered to
canvass, and the number increased as the election. ap-
proached. Many additional ones volunteered on the day
of polling. Grooby at first wanted employment generally.
It was afterwards he mentioned the subject of his bank

To Mr. BALL : Mr. Birchall acted as a canvasser. He
was a vounteer, and unpaid. I am not aware, it never
came to my knowledge, that he invited persons to take
refreshments.

To the CHAIRMAN : There were 754 electors in nly
ward, and there voted for Turner 321, Mackenzie SOS,
Cardwell 258, Ewart 240.

Thomas Wilson re-called, and examined by Mr. PAGET
I stated yesterday, when under examination, that I was at
the Pontack on the day of the nomination and the day of
the poll.
Mr. PAGET : Had you any refreshments there ?
Mr. JAMES objected to the question being put, and the
witness was ordered to withdraw.
Mr. JAMES said that when the witness was under exa-
mination yesterday, the committee held that the question
could not be put; and he contended that nothing had
since been elicited to justify it being put now.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE argued that at the Pontack
there was a room used for the conduct of the election on
behalf of the sitting members; that Mr. Oliver Hatch,
vtbo was there as secretary to that committee-room, was
in constant communication with the central committee-
room, and that all that was done there was recognized by
the central committee. Further, according to the evi-
dence of the landlord, (Clegg,) it appeared that the can-
vassers had ordered drink and refreshments to he given to
persons whom he believed to be voters in that very room.
He held, therefore, that counsel for the sitting members
had a perfect right to go into this part of the question.
Mr. JAMES : Why, it was decided yesterday by the
committee, and, indeed, acquiesced in by the learned ser-
geant, that, until he proved some more agency than he
had done, his learned friend could not ask the witness a
question about what he had to eat and drink.
The CHAIRMAN: What passed in the mind of the com-
mittee, when they held that the question could not be put,-
was that the learned counsel for the petitioners was going
on the ground of the presumed agency of Birchall._

Mr. JAMES It was almost COnceded by the learned
sergeant, yesterday, that they could not establish Birchall's
agency. And what had occurred since to establish it'
It simply appeared from the evidence given to-day that
Birchall was a canvasser, of whom there were a great
many, but no proof whatever that Birchall had received
any authority to order refreshments to persons. It was
for the petitioners, then, to establish to the satisfaction or
the committee prima facie evidence of agency. If Birchall
were an agent, so also was every one of the sixty, eighty,-
or one hundred other canvassers who were engaged for the
sitting members, and in that case the acts of any of them-
might unseat those gentlemen.- He submitted that there
was no evidence before the committee of Birchall's agency;:
nay, he would go further and say, nor any evidence what-
ever that the witness Wilson had anything to eat or drink
by order of any person who was satisfactorily established
to be an agent.
The room was then cleared, and the public excluded,
whilst the committee deliberated upon this point for
three-quarters of an hour.
On being re-admitted,

The CHAIRMAN stated that it was the opinion of the
committee that Oliver Hatch was such an agent for con-
ducting the election in St. Anne's Ward as to make evi-
dence admissible with regard to refreshments supplied on
the nomination and the polling days to voters-introduced
by canvassers recognised by Hatch.
The witness was then re-called and examined by Mr.
PAGES' : I went to the Pontack because I was sent there
to get some allowance. I saw Mr. fireball on the polling
morning before I went to the Pont:leis. I saw him by the
bar when I went to the Pontack. lam not aware that I
bad any conversation with him then. I don't think he
was by when 1 got the drink. I got my breakfast at
the Pontack. It was before I polled that I saw him. I
got my breakfast before I polled. I saw him by the bar
before I got my breakfast. I saw him at the bar. Mr.
Birchall canvassed me. I told him I had promised my
vote,, anti I told him who I meant to vote for. The reaLon
I went to the Pontack was, that when he canvassed me
he said he would see me at the Pontack.

By Mr. PAGET : I can't say who the persons were who
were in the room I got my breakfast in. There were some
freemen there.

The CHAIRMAN : How do, you know they were free-
men ? You say you did not know them ?

Witness

They said they were freemen

By Mr. PAGET : I polled early in the morning. I can-
not say whether I saw Birchall at the Pontack after I
voted. I went to the poll in a coach. I don't know who
put me into the coach. Wilson went with me and voted
with rae. He cam 3 back with me in the coach. There
was a man to take us up to the pull. I don't know who
he was. He came back with us. _

Mr. PAGET : Did he order anything for you r
Mr. M. SMITH : I object to the examination continued
by Mr. Paget.
Witness : I cannot say how long I remained at the Pon-
tack after I came back from voting. I don't think the
man who took me up to the poll was in the room with me
when I breakfasted. There were other men in the room.
I don't know who they were. The only man who polled
with me who was there was Wilson. I went to the Pon-
tack alone. Mr. Birchall was not with me. When I saw
Mr. Birchall was at the bar, .I don't know whether he saw
me. It was some time before the election that Mr. Bir-
chall first told me to go to the Pontack. He did not tell
me that I was to go and vote from the Pontack. I think
I said I would go up. to the poll from the Pontack. I
don't know what he said when I told him. that. I don't
know whether he assented or dissented. It was in Ha-
nover-street where I told him this. _ _ _

Mr. PAGET : What passed between you and Mr.
Birchall when you told him you would vote from the
Pont ack ?

Mr. M. SMITH objected to the question. The witness
had already stated all he recollected.
The CHAIRMAN :• The witness has already told you he
can't remember. It is a long time ago since it occurred.
Examination resumed : I met Mr. Birchall afterwards,
between his canvassing me and the polling-day, but I had
no conversation with him further that I can recollect.
Mr. PAGET : Why, can't you recollect whether you
saw Mr. Birchall at the Pontack after you breakfasted ?
Mr. M. SMITH again objected to the question.
The CHAIRMAN said the witness had already answered
the question to the best of his recollection.
Mr. PAGET : Did you pay for your breakfast at the
Pontack ?

ill.. M. SMITH : I object to that.
The CHAIRMAN : The witness had better withdraw.

The witness having left the room,
Mr. PAGET submitted that the question was within the
scope of the resolutions of the committee. He has shown
that the witness was canvassed by Birchall. He had
shown that he had conversation with Birchall at the time
the canvassing took place, and that the Pontack was men-
tioned, and he had shown that in consequence of what
was said to him by Birchall, the witness said he would go
to the Pontack. _ _ .

The CHAIRMAN : That is not the effect of the wit-
ness's evidence. What he said was that he told Birchall
that he would go to the Pontack. Thera is no evidence
that Birchall said anything about it.
Mr. PAGET I submit then, sir, that we have it in
evidence that he went to the Pontack in. consequence of
what he said to Birchall when Birchall canvassed him,
and it was after he had been asked for his vote, and had
stated for whom he meant to vote, that he said he would
go there. There is every reason for believing that Birchall
was to see him there. We find that be did go to the
Pontack on the morning of the polling-day, that he saw
Birchall twice, that he went up to vote and came back to
the same place, that he saw Birchall at the bar, that he
had breakfasted there, Birchall being by the bar at the
time.
Mr. M. SMITH : No, he did not say that.
Mr. PAGET : He said he saw Birchall by the bar, and
that he saw him there several times during the day, but
he said he could not say bow late he saw him there. We
have proved that Birchall was active in the canvass ; that
he canvassed the witness; that when he canvassed him
something was said about polling from the Pontack. We
have proved that he went to the Pontack on the morning
of the polling-day ; that Birchen was there ; that the
witness went up from the Pontack to the poll ; that he
got his breakfast there ; and now I ask whether he paid
for that breakfast ? Surely that is a question I have a
right to put.
Mr. PRESHFIELD: I do not see anything in the evi-
dence to fix Birchall with what took place at the Pontack.
The CHAIRMAN : There is nothing to fix Birchall with

any knowledge of the transaction. There is nothing to
show a recognition on his part of what took place at the
Pontack in regard to the voter. The question would
therefore be irregular.
Mr. M. SMITH : I think sir, I am entitled to have this
part of the evidence struck out from the notes.
The CHAIRMAN : I don't know how far that is con-
sistent with the ordinary practice. It seems to me that
the matter will be better explained by leaving the notes as
they are. It will show then that an objection was taken to
the course of evidence, and that it was not permitted to be
continued.
Mr. M. SMITH : My object only is that attention
should be called to the matter. That being done, lam
in the hands of the committee.

The CHAIRMAN : We will let th 3 evidence remain on
the notes. It will explain itself. It is now very near the
hour we fixed for adjourning. 1 think we had better not
go any further to-day.
The committee then adjourned, at ten minutes to three