The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-04-30 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—WEDNESDAY
Lord J. RUSSELL, in moving the order of the day for the
house resolving itself into committee on the parliamentary
voters (Ireland) bill, explained the course which government
intended to pursue with respect to it. He said it was the
opinion of the ministry that the vote of Monday night could
not be considered as conclusive on a question of such impor-
tance. The second reading of the bill, containing, as it did,
the proposal for a £5 franchise, had been affirmed by no less
than 301 members of that house ; and the amendment, which
had been carried on Monday night, was not moved with the
view of negativing any franchise proposed by the bill, but
was moved by his noble friend (Lord Howick) as a kind of
franchise which he thought good, and which he proposed as
an addition to the franchise proposed by the bill. It would
be perfectly consistent, if the house should adopt the fran-
chise proposed by government. that it should also adopt the
franchise of his noble friend as an addition to it. He should
therefore proceed with the bill, and ask the sense of the
house upon the franchise proposed by his noble friend (Lord
Morpeth).
Lord Howler( said it might be convenient to the house, if
he stated to the house the course he meant to pursue. He
still continued of 'opinion that the county franchise should
be settled upon the principle he had proposed, retaining the
existing franchise of beneficial interests, and opening up a
further franchisei by means of occupation. The house had
affirmed the principle of s property qualification, and he
would say in reference to what had fallen from his noble
friend (Lord J. Russell), that he never would, have dreamed
of proposfng his amendment, except as an addition to some
other franchise. If the house should agree upon some other
franchise, he should then, and in that case only, move his
amendments. The most important of the amendments was,
that which went to alter the occupation franchise, by doing
away with the necessity of a lease. . He would not, however,
interfere with the progress of the measure before the house,
by proposing amendments which, though in his opinion, per-
fectly satisfactory, had, nevertheless, no chance of being ac-
quisced in by the house. At the same time, this amendment
falling to the ground, it was quite impossible for him to sup-
port the clause the government were about to bring under
the consideration of the house. The proposal of a clause
which there was no probalility would pass into a law, would
have the effect of leaving this subject another year without
any attempt to remedy its evils. Neither could he support
the bill of his noble friend (Lord Stanley), believing, as he
did, that nearly all the evils of the Irish system of registra-
tion flowed from the undefined state of the franchise, which
no bill merely dealing with the registration could possibly
remedy or remove.
Sir R. PEEL felt it necessary to explain the course he had
thought it right to take in the debate of Monday, and the
position in which the question now stood. He understood
that her Majesty's government had undertaken to settle the
great question of defining the franchise, and correcting the
abuses of the registration system. Instead, however, of de-
fining the franchise, the government had brought forward a
proposition for totally subverting the franchise, and for sub-
stituting another in its room—a franchise founded upon oc-
cupancy as tested by rating for counties, and a £5 franchise
for boroughs. This he understood the noble lord (Howick)
to object to, an to propose in lieu of it the principle of the
beneficial interest. Under these circumstances they ap-
proached the discussion, and he for one certainly thought
they were discussing the great principle of the bill. Now,
however, the noble lord opposite (Lord John Russell) stated
that, as it was only proposed as an additional franchise, there
would be no inconsistency in admitting it, not as a substitute,
but as a supplemental franchise. The noble lord (Howich)
had stated it to be so in the first instance, and the hon. mem-
ber for Halifax had explained it very clearly, and said they
would never have dreamed of bringing it forward except to
supply a defect in, and to add to another mode of franchise.
Yet the noble lord then opposed most strenuously the
amendment so framed, which he was now willing to adopt.
He thought the noble lord, in bringing forward a bill of such
importance as this, should be able to give to the house an
assurance that there was reasonable ground for supposing
that it would pass in the other House of Parliament. Some
papers had been laid on the table of the house that very day,
which showed how difficult it was with the present informa-
tion to define the proper franchise for Ireland. One of these
reports stated explicitly that there were no means of judging
what number of electors would be created in Ireland by any
given amount of rating, combined with tenure. He thought
they would be guilty of exciting false expectations if they
supported an experiment like this, with the details of which
they had not sufficient means of be coming acquainted.
Lord MORPETH defended the course pursued by the go-
vernment, and said that though government was prepared to
admit the amendment of Lord Howick as an addition to the
franchise, yet they still insisted on the alternative condition
of a rating to the annual value of £B, and upon this £8
rating they were determined to take the sense of the house.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON contended that the noble lord
had entirely mistaken what had fallen from the right hon.
baronet.
Mr. H. GRATTAN commented strongly on what he called
the political ugglery carried on in the house, and taunted
Lord Howick for being satisfied with obtaining a majority
against his friends, and then backing-out of his proposition
in the best way he could.
The house then went into committee, and the first clause
as amended was agreed to.
When the second clause was proposed, Mr. HE ME moved
on amendment, the effect of which would be to render
leases unnecessary to qualify parties to vote, and to substi-
tute a simple occupancy. Some technical difficulty arose,
and in order to effect .his object, he moved that a lease of
one year should be sufficient to qualify an elector.
After some discussion, Lord J. RUSSELL said he would
not deny that a franchise grounded upon occupation might
be beneficial in Ireland, but he was not so far satisfied that
such a franchise would not lead to great evils as to justify
him in adopting it. lie feared the voters under such a
tenure would be too far dependent upon their landlords to
render it prudent to grant it. The noble lord expressed a
hope that the house would not refuse to millions of Roman
Catholics their constitutional rights, who, if they had not in
that house a legitimate channel for the expression of their
grievances, might have recourse to the more dangerous sys-
tem of clubs and secret associations.
Sir R. PEEL said they had now before them the original
proposition of the government, and a division as to whether
one or fourteen years should be adopted would not be mate-
rial, he would rather have the bill exactly as her majesty's
government wished to place it before the house, it being per-
fectly notorious that when the clause came to be proposed he
shonld give his vote against it altogether. If, therefore, the
amendment of the hon. member for Kilkenny was pressed to
a division, he would vote against it, in order that the division
might be fairly taken upon the proposition of the govern-
ment.
After a few observations from Mr. C. WOOD,
Mr. SHELL, in supporting the proposition of the govern-
ment, reminded Lord Howick that he had voted with Lord
Althorp in opposing the Chandos clause of the Reform Bill,
and yet he sought to extend a similar franchise to Ireland.
He also took the opportunity of assuring Mr. Hume that al-
though he was member for Kilkeuny, he knew no more, nay,
knew far less, of the feelings and habits and character of the
people of Ireland than he (Mr. Sheil) did of the people of
Middlesex. Unless they were prepared to give the protec-
tion of the ballot, he called upon them not to confer a fran-
chise which must make the party who received either a slave
or a martyr—which would inevitably drive him to servitude
the most ignominious, or to the most disastrous ruin. He
thought that when the tight hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) found
fault with the government in a speech pregnant with the most
subtle disquisition, he ought at the same time that he was
finding fault with all the details of the bill, to have stated
what it was that he thought government ought to do, or what
he would himself propose to have done were he at the head
of the government.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was unnecessary to divide the
house on the amendment, for the clause was an affirmative
one, and he might at any time after move that a lease for
one year should be sufficient also to entitle a man to vote.
The government would vote against his hon. friend (Mr.
Hume), and so would the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel),
and he had therefore not the smallest hope of carrying his
amendment. He would vote in favour of the government
measure because it would be beneficial to Ireland, and he
trusted the house would also support it, for by so doing they
would conciliate a people easily governed through the medium
of their affections.
On a division, Mr. Hume's amendment was negatived by
a majority of 513 to 47.
Mr. Hume moved that the blank in the clause for the
rating should be filled up with the words " five pounds,"
instead of " eight pounds," as proposed by the government.
Lord MORPETH said the sum of £8 was fixed upon in
order to conciliate as large a number as possible of the
friends of Ireland, and he saw nothing to be ashamed of in
adopting such a course.
Mr. O'CONNELL supported the proposition of Mr.
Hume.
The committee again divided, and the motion of Mr.
Hume was defeated by a majority of 434 to 126.
Mr. BROTHERTON moved that the chairman should report
progress, it being past 12 o'clock ; but the motion was de-
feated by 428 to 98.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the chairman should leave
the chair. The hon. and learned gentleman finding that if
his motion were carried the bill would be lost, wished to
withdraw it, but would not be allowed to do so by the oppo-
sition benches.
Mr. WAKLEY then animadverted severely on the difficulty
in which they had been placed by the vacillating conduct of
the Government, and expressed his surprise that, after the
division of Monday, they should have the courage to face the

house.
Lord J. RUSSELL defended the course pursued by the Go-
vernment in altering the franchise so as to meet the views of
many of the hon. members on his own side of the house, and
commented on the acrimony of the attack made upon them
by the hon. member for Finsbur". If the clause before the
house should be carried, he should certainly proceed with the
bill, but if not carried he saw no use in proceeding with the
remaining clauses.
Mr. JERVIS complained that 'Mr. O'Connell was not al-
lowed to withdraw a motion inadvertently made.
Mr. C. WOOD said he was opposed to
di the clause, but could
be no party to defeating the bill by dividing on such an
amendment as this.
Sir R. PEEL thought it would be more satisfactory to take
the decision upon the merits of the clause itself rather than
by taking advantage of a motion inadvertently made by a
friend of bill. If, however, they waived the advantage
thus given them, it should be on the understanding that to-
morrow (Thursday) they should resume the bill and come to
a decision upon the merits.
The arrangement was agreed to by Lord J. RUSSELL, the
house reeumed, the orders of the day were disposed of, and
the house adjourned.

Days

TIDE TABLE

Height. Sundays, Holydays, Iye

,
I it. st. it. al. F. t•
Friday ..30 16 37 720 11 10
Saturday 1 8 0 838 112 8 Duke Wellington b. 1769.
Sunday.. 2, 9 8 g 35 14 4 3rd Sunday after Easter.
Monday 3 1 956 10 16 15 3 Jamaica discovered 1495.
Tuesday 4110 35 10 53 16 11 Sun rises
2h. 22M.
Wednes. 5111 11 11 2g 17 8 Napoleon died 1821.
Thursday 6111 47 - 17 6 South Sea Co. formed 1710

AN ACCOUNT OF CATTLE IMPORTED
Into LIVERPOOL, from the 20th to the loth inst., inclusive.
FROM IRELAND.
Cows. Sheep. Pigs. Horses. Mules. Calves. Lamb
1529 1829 3780 67 0 420
Prey.. 13367 27796 4293 295 -- 6s 2054

COASTWISE

269 13