The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-07-10 00:00:00

VESTRY MEETING.

..-yviteito:_lt:4,ypo,eAsecitiegd3h4i4l.644T of the
h.r parishioners was'he.at;Ste Niehoias'sLharthettirake into
Lconaidaratianthe proposals of„l'hornae,Jatne#MaiLfEsil-2as
mediatort,for.the.aettlement of the endowment question. Mr.
Churclewarden Ibsen Was called CO the Chair.
Mr..LOWN DES: the, vestry-clerk, then stated, that immti-
diately-after the last vestry, he had Waited.Ori the town-clerk,
to cOminunicate to him, tee views,: us he•understood•them, of
.the Select.Yeatry,„ nariteiy, the; Martiu'e
~Ctnalch should
be, if possible, withdrawn frmli the operation of the act; that
St. Paul's and St. John's should, be placed on a different
footing from that contemplated in ; St_Paul's not to
he affected either in its ministers or stipends by the contem-
plated act of parliament; and the parish to be at liberty to
appoint a curate to St. John's, paying him LIOO a-year. Mr.
Radcliffe was to communicate that to the Endowment Com-
mittee, and tell him the result. He had received the follow-
ing communication from the Town-clerk in answer,t—
-" Town-hall, 9th July, 1838.
" My dear sir.—After giving the fullest consideration to
your communications on the subject of the church endow-
ment question, I communicated them to our committee, and
I am now instructed to reply.
•` In the first place, I must thank you for your suggestions.
" The object of the. Council is, by concession, to effect
peace in the community; but the, only pecuniary considera-
tion before them is, the acceleration of the fruits of a judg-
ment which has met with the general approbation of West-
minster-bal'. The Council are not invested with a trust or
trust funds.for the church endowment; their concession must
therefore he limited.
" With regard to St. George's, after the proposal of an
endowment to the sole minister of £2OO per annum, in addi-
tion to the £5O, it is not likely that any reduction, as sug-
gested, would be approved by the legislature, if the commit-
tee were so disposed.
" As to any addition, on the part of the parish, of St.
Paul's or St. John's, which you have mentioned as enter-
tained by some of the parishioners, the committee consider
that perfect neutrality is the proper course for the council;
but if .any. such addition should be proposed by the vestry,
upon the plan of a curacy, to each or eitberof those churches,
the committee would consent to the nomination of the curate
being in the minister.
" With regard to St. Martin's, I must state that the pro-
posals of Mr.. Hall having been adopted by the trustees, and
made by their solicitor, their proposals to abe Council by his
agreement in writing on their behalf, the coMmittee conceive
that they had a right,to suppose that all proper communica-
tions consequent upon them would have been made on behalf
of the trustees to the several clergymen concerned, more espe-
cially as the trustees comprised the Lord Bishop of the dio-
cese. In the consideration of the proposals as to St. Martin's,
it was taken that the assistant minister s halfof the fees would,
with the £2O. per annum front the Council; furnish to the first
minister at least a sufficient indemnity for the £7O. per an-
num, for a curate, proposed to be thrown upon him if he be-
came the sole minister. But,riew it appears to the commit-
tee, that the entire-fees amount to about £25. and certainly
not to £3O.
." The conclusion of the committee, therefore, now is, that
no alteration ought to be made in the present first minister's
stipend; and considering the extent of district, as well as the
smallness of the fees, that no alteration in that stipend can
properly be Made, as to the sole minister hereafter, but that
the £3OO per annum in perpetuity should be continued. Then
for a curate the committee are willing to add £BO per annum
-to the £2O previouily proposed by them for this church,
making £lOO to be paid by the Corporation to the curate;
and they propose that the nomination of the curate should
be in the minister. With regard to the assistant minister's
half of the fees, the committee would have no objection to
their going hereafter to the sole minister.
" The amendments of the committee in respect to St. Mar-
tin's will appear in the copy of the proposal as to the church
in red ink, which I enclose you.
"I trust that these further concessions will ensure the as-
sent of the vestry; and that I shall be enabled to return the
draft of the bill by the mail of to-day, every hour being, of im-
portance to its passing in the present session.
"The determinations of our committee, you are aware, are
subject to the confirmation of the Council; but the commit-
tee have no doubt that their proceedings will be confirmed by
the Council on Wednesday; and they recommend to the
vestry to proceed on this assurance.—l am, &c. (Signed)
"RICHD. RADCLIFFE.
" M.D. Lowndes, Esq Vestry-cierk."

Mr. ELLIS said he certainly was disappointed, so far that
he did nut expect the concession then made, though it was
merely a trifling one. Since lie had last been there he had
considered the proposal throughout, and he must confess to
them that he did not like it all. It savoured too strongly of
the shop—using a very vulgar term. .He believed under the
old corporation of Li verpool the protestant churches flourished
and the town along with them. It appeared that the corpo-
ration had been negligent in early days to endow these
churches in a proper manner, and therefore it was thrown on
the liberality of the present council to do-so. He was sorry
that the expectations regarding the present council had been
• proved to be correct. The old corporation in the eleventh
hour began to find that something ought to be done to keep
up the church establishinent, otherwise it would be pulled to
pieces. He thought. the present arrangereent showed that
something of tills kind Would conic to pass unless they stood
firm in the foreizretind.- (Hear.). It appeared that the old
corporation had laid opt £105,000. at .1 per cent., which pro-
duced £4200. for the income of the church,' to be distributed
among the clergy.
.nis was a' very sufficient endowment;
but it was to be taken from them for law charges for ehav-
ing had laws. It appeared thatseg the offer made by the
council for the re-obtaining of this large sum was to pay the
Rectors for life the sums paid to them by the old council,but
utile!) Were not allowed by law to he paid by the new. The
arrangement might continue fur some 10, 20, or 30 years and
then would drop away. They'had :tints let the enemy gain
ground till they were willing to take the paltry sum of £650.
to the Rectors for life. If anything would stir bp the sleep-
ing churchmen, it would be this paltry proposal of the enemy.
If there was one drop of the blood of their ance`Strits in them
it would take fire atsuch a proposal—(hear)—and they would
scorn it. There was also in future after the decease of one of
the Rectors, to be but one Rector. Ile tbought'this mea-
sure ought not to have been .determined on at the suggestion
of any one 'man. The stiperds of the four parish Curates
sere to be continued as heretofore i. 411- Bad the appoint-
ment of those Curates ?

The VESTII'If-d,6l2l(.—The rectors.
Mr. ELLis in continuation,.—Then there arese a very-seri-
ous point. Who..was to. be their. future rector? The parish-
ioners were two-thirds churchmen; they were going to
give the council the paying of their curates. Who was to
be their future rector Sotnelqdcsycophant or other.
The VESTRY-CLERK.--Will you allow me to say, to save
you further trouble on that head,..that the nomination will
not be by the council. The advowson will be sold, 'and the
nomination. will. he wititthe-Bishop., . .
Mr. E continued.-r-lt came to the same tbiri,. They
sold the chuich, • and- they were going to .pass a law to pay.
any rector to whom. they'sold the church. Some Mr. Buck
who had found • his way into the favour of the council by
adopting their views- on ,the school question. They would
saddle upon themselves eternal trouble. If they gave the
power of their public schools, and church into the hands of
the enemy, what could they expect ? Let them train up a
child in the way lie should go, and when it was old it would
not depart from it. He cautioned the parishioners against
granting any concession. They were giving the -rod into
the enemy's hand. (" Not yet.") The clatirchmen were
asleep, until the locks were cut off from their head in which
their strength lay; and then it was awake oh Sampson when
they were binding them to the door posts of the Town-hall
They were selling their church to increase the corporate fund
to serve each other—to set up fire works on Queen's corona-
tions. ("Question.") He was to the question. He was on
money matters. lie was on the corporate question. It was on the
general business; he appealed to the chairman. To pay for
steam boats to go up and down the river at the coronation.
To pay for guns to fire on the pier head, by which a man had
lost his life, and for which an annuity was to be paid to his
widow fm life. (" No," No.") In the hurry of public busi-
ness, perhaps, they had forgot the annuity. They amused the
starving people on the Pierhead with firing, guns, but—
(" Question," question.")

Mr. PARKIM said, the corporation had nothing whatever
to do with the firing of the guns.

Mr. ELLIS continued. i 47 cr £4O or £50,000, the Corpora.
tion would get by the sale of the churches, they merely offer-
ed them -£405 as interest. They then came to the palish, and
minted to saddle ot, their shoulders a part of the expenses.—
By doing this there would • be some heavy law charges come
upon them.

*The VESTRY-CI unx.—No, I beg your pardon; the Bo-
rough fund pays all.
Mr. ELLis continued. Ah, well; it came to the same
thing. -(A laugh.) The -burden fell on their shoulders in
falling on the man they had to carry. Ile thought the clergy
would have no objection to trust to the parishioners of Liver-
pool. Ile would move an amendment. (• "There has been
no motion.") Well, then, he would make a motion, °' That
the parish authorities now place a sufficient sum of money in
a bank at the disposal of the trustees of the Endowment Com-
mittee to defend the suit," if that could be legally done. It
would amount to very little. • A penny in the pound amount-
ed to a very large stun.
The VESTRY CLEIIK.—You recollect this is a meeting
called for a special purpose. It is not for a general purpose.
It is either for granting the proposal or negativing it. Ido
not think this: is a negation. In the first place, what sum
could you give to the endowment trustees to indemnify them?
ELLIS.—A thousand or fifteen hundred pounds, I sup.
pose, would be sufficient.
A P ISH !um:rt.—More lifiely £20,000 will be wanted.
The CHAIRMAN thought Mr. Ellis had better move his mo-
tion as an amendment to a motion.

Mr. PA num said, he should be sorry to be thought dicta-
torial by the chairman, but he hoped that he would not allow
any individual t 9 address the meeting more than once. (Hear.)
Although but a §hort period of time had elapsed tiineo they had
met together to consider the subject, he felt confident that
time had been sufficient with most of the parishioners to
convince them of the necessity of bringing this question to a
close. -He was perfectly satisfied that then was the time, and
then alone, for the question to be settled. Much had been
said about the corporation. but he was of opinion that the
municipal reform bill was the ground of all the evil of which
they complained. Ilia that being the law of the land, he
thought that it would be the best-way to bring the matter to
a conclusion to submit to a certain extent. Many of the
members of the corporation being inimical to the church,
that body hal not acted so 'much out of the way as they
Might have expected. They had taken a • sort of middle
course, in which, he thought, they ought to agree. He
(Mr. Parker) had had the honour of acting with many
'of that body during the preparations for the corona-
tion, "and', he' was proud to bear his testimony to the
manner in which they had come-forward to support the mo-
narchy, and also the church. (Hear.) He trusted that the
parishioners would that day determine to come to a settle-
ment. They had present the advocate for the Trustees, Mr.
Lloyd: they were not wanting in an advocate for the coun-
cil, and they had their legal adviser, Mr. Lowndes, whose
opinion they ought to agree in. He thought Mr. Lowndes'
opinion on this question should have its proper weight with
the parishioners, and he trusted that such would be the case.
(Hear.)

Mr. Churchwarden GLADSTONE rose to make the proposed
motion as amended. He wool I merely remark that. several
exiilanations had taken place, and that both sides had agreed
on several arrangements, which he trusted would prove salu-
tary to the parishioners. He then moved a resolution to the
effect, that the arrangeMent proposed by Thomas James
Hall, Esq., 'with the modifications suggested, relating to St.
Paul's and St. John's chinches, should be adopted.
Mr. WA LTHEw seconded the Motion.
The Rev. Mr. GLADWIN.—May I put a question to Mr.
Gladstone? •
. The CHAMlAN.—Certninly.

Mr. GLADWIN.—In those articles of agreement, that ate
how before the parishioners to approve or reject, the church
of St. Martin's is still included; I want to know, sir, whether
they do sanction or do not • sanction those articles of agree-
ment, formerly drawn up, relating to St. Martin's Church.
The VESTRY Cr,KßK—They are modified by the letter of
the town-clerk..

Mr. GLADWIN said, under these circumstances he now
claimed to address the chair. As he before had protested,
he then protested, in the name and on the,behalf of the poor.
of St. Martin's district, against either the trustees of, the
endowment question, or the town council, or any other per-
son, interfering with the rights of the poor of that populous
district. (Hear.) He wished to set himself right with the
parishioners, that he did not stand there, and had not spoken
one word, on selfish grounds. As he had mentioned on Fri-
day to .the town-clerk, he was not there as an individual.
The provision, as made, would be most gratifying to himself
individually; but he denied his own right, well as that of
others,.to interfere in this .question at all. He must say that
those making the arrangement had admitted they were
wrong. It had been admitted to him that they. had no right
to interfere, and that interference was continued. Before,
they had said they were in error; that could not be their

excuse now. -TheThing had been laid clearly before them,and since they could not get the whole loaf, they were con-
tent to lake halit 4 spelnyt was intended to fake £121) from
him; now, thltklres: Too nt they were wrong, and that their
intentions were in jeopardy, inasmuch as-the bilt was now
before parliament, ;arid if_no decision was come to that day
they would not gain h
-Lex poilit, they were satisfied to take
only,A:loo,•and:they would leav'eltithonitroThe nomination of
the other minister, and he thanked theta fOr reposing that
confidence in. him.. But he. costkluslot, see tilts what ground
thee visa justify.takiug 11.40,a4rfaure than any sum what-
ever; for an act of parliament had perpetuated those sums to
two ministers. and why was St. Martin's to be made the
scape goat to this arrangement ? If they took away half a
Minister's stipend, they took away half his resources to supply
the wants of the poor of his district, he would therefore still
stand out against it, because he had no right to sign away
these rights of the people. If they wanted to make an ami-
cable adjustment, he would suggest a way to do it. As had
already been adverted to, they were
..guing to sell the advow-
sons, which were church property, and to which they had no
right, and if they wanted to adjust the thin—
si let them give the
amount
of the sale of the advowsons to the endowment fund
• .
in dispute. He had the. sanction of an act of parliament
St. c confirmin those privileges to Martin's,
and if it was
necessary to break down an act wily not break down the mu-
nicipal reform bill instead of Sr. Martin's act?
Let them
• v " this matter is go to the legislature and sa_ but a trifle, will
o anolv it? Eve you give us the power t ,
u that was not
necessary; sou they
• • ld go to the privy
.council for it. St.
Martin's had nothing whatever to do with the question at
issue, and he could nut see on what grounds of justice it was
interfered with. With regard to the other churches, he was
very clad that there could be an amicable settlement; but
he trusted that St. Martin's would also receive justice at the
hands of the parishioners. did most solemnly and
earnestly protest a
against any interference with the
obtain interests
of that church, and if he not justice at their hands
he should feel it his duty to go to the Commons and Lords,
and try if there was yetlaw and equity in the land. (Cheers.)
He concluded with moving that St. Martin's be left out of
the arrangement,as having no business at all with it.
The VESTRY-CLERK said the. motion was not within the
scope of the meeting. Na part of the resolution affected
St. Martin's.
Mr. GLADwiN.—But still the arrangements of agreernent
very materially affect St. Martin's?
VESTRY-CLERK.—They do.
Mr. GLADIVIN.—Then how am I. to 'obtain justice ? I
will move an amendment then, that'St;Rlartin's be left out
of the cLuestion.
The N'ESTRY-CLERK.—St. Martin's was not a parish church.
It was the property of the corporetion, and if the corpora-
tion wished to remodify its conStitution, it was a question
between its ministers and the corporation. The parish were
met to consider their own interests.
Mr. GLADWIN.—Then I must put a question to you, Mr.
Lloyd. Is St. Martin's to be affected by this arrangement ?
Mr. LLovn said, being called on, be could only say, that
at the commencement of this negociation, the trustees bad
nothing at all to do with St. Martin's Church ; but when it
was proposed to Mr. Hall to state on what ground the ar-
rangement was to be made, lie brought in St. Martin's; St.
Luke's and St. Michael's having been sold, they had' now
the sale of the present presentation. Mr. Hall could look
at the question, not to the endowment deed only, but as to
a general settlement of the question.;. He had been
roisle d
as to the amount of fees; having Lech led-to believe that the
fees amounted to £l2O a year, and that, therefore, as the se
cord minister got a moiety, his proposal would be no injusice
Mr. Hall said they would put it on this footing : the first
minister should have all the fees, and they would pay the
curate £lOO a-year. If St. Martin's turned round on its act
of parliament, the corporation miOht turn round and sae
Let St. David's go to its act, and let Mr. Davies take hi;
£9O a-year." And if it was injustice to St. Martin's to take
away a part of the stipend, it was a greater injustice to aug-
ment that of Mr. Davies. But, as a whole arrangement it
would be an amicable[ one for the town at large; in which
the trustees said, Though we have nothing to do with St.
Martin's, we gladly agree." Mr Gladwin would have an
opportunity of petitioning the legislature, which would be
his remedy, to say, " Will you, or will you not, alter our act
of parliament?" (Hear.)
Mr. GI.AnwIN was very glad to have that opportunity of
bearing his testimony to the conduct of Mr. Hall, Which be
cal
belito time chureved most
ch sincerely had been dictated by nothing inimi
Mr. Et.t.ts rose to move his amendment amidst cries of
" Spoke." It being understood that it was by arrangement
that he was tondo so he proceeded. He briefly moved as an
amendment, that the parish do not pay the £750 named in
the bill as fixed for the four curates at all ; that the allow-
ance contemplated in the bill for the four parish curates be
not paid, but that their allowance should be left as before to
the annual vote of the parish."
There being no seconder to the amendment, it fell to the
ground.
After some further irrelevant conversation, the motion was
put and carried unanimously.
On the motion of Mr. BOLTONi a vote of thanks was moved
to the chair, and the meeting separated at one o'clock.