The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-07-29 00:00:00

kinperiat Parliament.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAY.
CHURCH OF IRELAND BILL.
On the motion of Viscount MELBOURNE, the house resolved
itself into a committee on the above bill.
The noble Viscount stated, that his Majesty had signified his
assent to those parts of' the bill by which any interest apper-
taMing to him might be affected.
The preamble was postponed, and the first and second
clauses were agreed to without observation.
On the third clause, which provides " that all lands subject
to the payment of tithe compositions shall be charged with an
annual sum by way of rent-charge, equal to seven-tenths of
such compositions, to be payable by the party having the first
estate of inheritance in such lands," being read—
Lord LYNDHURST rose to move, as an amendment, that
" seven-tenths" be struck out, for the purpose of substituting
" three-fourths." It was only fair, with reference to the land-
lords and to the incumbents of parishes in Ireland, that some
reduction should, under existing circumstances, be made, but
not to the extent proposed by the bill. As the landlords took
on themselves the liability, in the first instance, they ought to
receive some benefit for that liability, and a distinct under-
standing should be come to on the subject. Considering that
liability, it had been proposed formerly that 25 per cent., or
one-fourth of their incomes, should be given up by the incum-
bents; so that they had consented, and the landlords, on the
other side, also expressed their assent to the arrangement. The
bill framed by Sir H. Hardinge, and the bill which was intro-
duced into that house in the last session of parliament, both re-
cognized 25 per cent. as the amount of reduction, and he could
see no reason whatever for extenrling it from 25 to 30 per cent.
Lord HATHERTON opposed the amendment...,
The Earl of RteoN said, that everything he had heard in the
course of the present discussion but tended more and more to
confirm him in his resolution to adopt the amendment of his
noble and learned friend behind him. •
Lord WH ARNCLIFFE wished to know whether the noble lord
would promise that this should be a final measure? (Hear.)
If any reliance was to be placed upon the discussions which
had occurred in another place, this could not be looked upon as
a final measure. (Hear.) Indeed, his Majesty's ministers had
been told that it was not, and never could be considered to be,
a final measure, but only as an instalment, and a step towards
something more.

Lord ALVANLEY said no one would rejoice more than him-
self if this were a final measure; hut he would ask the noble
viscount what probability there was of such a result? He
thought it impossible, as long as the noble viscount continued
to retain his present opinions. He had not heard one sound
reason given why he should consent to reduce the income of
the clergy 35 per cent., or 30 per cent.; .but it that proposition
were agreed to, the bill would be thrown out upon the appro-
priation clause, which, it was true, had been carried in the
other house by a great majority, but nut by one which gave
satisfaction to the protestant poptilation of this country. ( Hear.)
Their lordships then divided; the numbers were for the
amendment—
Content.
Not-content 46
Majority. —7B
The remaining clauses, up to clause 10 inclusive, were agreed
to with some verbal amendments.

On clause 11, relating to compositions for tithes, being
proposed,

Lord LYNDHURST entered into a history of the tithe compo-
sition act introduced by Mr. Goulburn and Lord Stanley. He
called upon their lordships to reject these clauses—namely,
from clause 11 up to clause 24 inclusive. It had been said that
some of the compositions under Lord Stanley's act had been
hastily made, so that concealment and fraud had been prac-
tised ; if so, such cases ought to be revised, not by three bar-
risters, but by a proper tribunal. (hear.) The noble lord
concluded by moving that the 11th clause, and other clauses
consequent upon it, be omitted.
Lord MELBOURNE said he would not oppose the amend-
ments, if Lord Lyndhurst pressed it.
The clauses as amended were then agreed to.
Clauses from 24 to 41 inclusive were then severally agreed to.
On clause 42 being proposed.
Lord LYNDHURST asked whether the 21 per cent. for collec-
tion was to be allowed on £lOO or on £57. 10s.?
And upon Lord H ATHERTON'S replying on the latter sum,
Lord LYNDHURST observed, that, as there would be no sense
in providing that 21 per cent. should be paid on a som that was
not collected, he should move that the 22 per cent. he left in the
clause, but that it be subject to correction or alteration upon
the report.
The clause as amended was then agreed to.
Clauses from 43 to 49 inclusive were agreed to without dis-
cussion.

Upon clause 50 (the appropriation clause) being proposed,

Lord LYNDHURST said they had now arrived at a clause
which related to an entirely new subject. The 49 clauses
they had gone through related to the subject of a commutation
of tithe—a measure admitted on all hands to be most desirable
—admitted in the strongest terms by his noble and learned
friend to be a measure that would prove beneficial to Ireland—
a measure called for with the view of restoring tranquillity to
that country, and providing for the security of the empire.
Their lordships would, therefore, naturally ask why that which
was a perfect and entire measure—a measure assented to unani-
mously by every member of that house, assented to, he believed
almost unanimously, by the members of the other house of par-
liament—why a provision so beneficial as described was not
passed. He ( Lord Lyndhurst) exhorted that noble and learned
lord and he exhorted ministers to consent to pass that part of
the bill. What was the reason that a measure so beneficial as
this was described to be by all parties was not passed ? It was
because ministers, because the government, had thought proper
to ingraft upon this beneficial measure—a measure of a very
different character, with which it had no natural or necessary
connexion. (Hear, hear.) They were reproached year after
year with the rejection of this measure; but they did not reject
this measure. (Hear.) They adopted it in the last sitting of
parliament. They were then willing to consent to its being
passed, but it was because they would not consent to this other
measure, which was one of a widely different nature, that it did
not pass on that occasion. What was the cause of all this?
Why it originated in that fatal resolution that had been passed
by the other house of parliament. He would not speak disre-
spectfully of any measure that had passed the House of Commons,
but he might say, with respect to the persons who had originally
framed and formed that measure, who had originally assembled
for the purpose of recommending it to parliament, that their
object was to overturn the then existing administration for the
purpose of placing themselves in their position, and he believed
that object had not been denied. If, then, that had beer. their
object, the least that could be said of it was, that it was not a
very laudable object. (Hear, hear.) But when he considered
that they must have shown at the time they formed that plan
the consequence that would result from it, the fearful conse-
quences which it was likely to produce, and which it bad al-
ready produced, the effect of which had been to fetter the other
house of parliament, which under no change of circumstances
were they to do—when he considered that by that measure they
were forming a subject of discord between the two houses of
parliament, and preventing the first part of the bill, admitted
to be necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland, from being passed
into a law—when he considered all these things, he confessed
he could find no terms of reprobation too strong by which to
mark his feeling of those who had been guilty of this conduct.
(Hear, hear.) He did hope, he did confidently expect, that
the noble viscount departing from the manner in which he pro-
posed this measure the other night, that he would abandon that
resolution. He did hope and confidently expect that the conse-
quences which were resulting from it would be put a stop to, and
that those which should necessarily follow from it hereafter, if
it were adopted, would be prevented by the good sense, pa-
triotism, and manliness of his character, in abandoning the
tie by which he was held, in bursting the bonds by which he
was fettered, and in getting rid of this measure which had
produced the consequences he had related. (Hear, hear.)
The noble viscount had told them on a former night, with great
emphasis, that this measure was his own, and that he had suf-
fered no dictation, no influence, no control to direct his conduct.
He (Lord Lyndhurst) was glad to hear that statement made
by the noble viscount. He never forone moment supposed that
the noble viscount would suffer any direct dictation from any
individual or from any body of men, but they all knew that ther-e
was an individual who had been described by his (Lord Lynd-
hurst's) noble friend, as a favourite in the country—these were
the noble lord's words—at that time placed in such a situation
as to be able either to uphold or destroy the government of the
country. They knew that by his fiat ministers would stand or
fall. ( Hear.) Let it be recollected that persons might exer-
cise influence, and might exert control, without the party sub-
ject to that influence or control being aware of it, from the
manner in which it was done. Our great dramatic poet says—
" That when the lion fawns upon the lamb,
The lamb cloth never cease to follow him."
(Hear, and laughter.)
There was another personal argument which he should address
to the noble viscount, and which he also hoped would have some
weight with him. The noble viscount sometimes condescended
to give advice to noble lords at his (Lord Lyndhurst's) side of
the house. He sometimes read them lectures as to the prudence
nun propriety of the course they were Mowing- Now, it was
not very long since the noble viscount, pursuing that strain,
directed their attention to the decrease of their nunibers in the
other house of parliament as the touchstone by which they
should be guided, and the test by which they might measure the
prudence and the propriety of the course they were following.
That was the argument which had been made use of by the no-
ble viscount. True it was that that argument had been ad-
dressed to them in a moment of temporary elevation and ex-
citement, when the party barometer stood very high, when it
was, in fact, uto 86, when it had attained the point of move-
ruent heat. (Hear, hear.) It had since, however, sunk down,
to twenty-six, which, according to his (Lord Lyndhurst's) re-
collection, was sometimes below the freezing point—(hear, and
laughter)—and if the principle were correct as applicable to
eighty-six, it could be no less correct when applied to the num-
ber of twenty-six. ( Hear, hear.) Now, the noble viscount
must recollect, that when this resolution was first proposed in
the other house of parliament by a person in the opposition,
wwiatshcaalLtiheedby
influence and power of government against him, it
since elapsed. a majority of 39 or 37. A year and a half had
The noble viscount had been during the whole
of that time in possession of office, and all the power, control,
and influence that belonged to it; vet the majority on this
question had been reduced to 26. (Hear, hear.) If, then, they
were to take advice and counsel from the declining numbers on
their part in the House of Commons, he would take the liberty
of presenting to the noble viscount this position of things as a
reason why he should consider well whether it was fair and pro-
per for him to adhere to his former course. But there was
another observation to which a noble lord.near him had directed
his attention, an observation which was a matter of most ma-
terial consideration—namely, that in taking the numbers of the
other house of parliament as a guide to the course of conduct
they ought to pursue, they were not to consider the numbers
only of the majority and minority, but of what they were re-
spectively composed. (Hear, hear.) The other house of par-
liament had unfolded the means of analyzing that majority, and
had shown of what it was composed. When he informed their
lordships that the majority of protestants in that house, includ-
ing his 'Majesty's government, were opposed to this measure, he
thought that such a circumstance should weigh strongly with
the noble viscount. (Hear.) When he informed them that the
majority of the English. representatives, including catholics and
protestants, were against that measure, and lastly, when he
mentioned, that upon withdrawing from the division the names
of his 'Majesty's ministers, there appeared a clear majority
against the noble viscount, he thought that these circumstances
would also have some weight with him. When the noble
viscount considered how that majority was composed, and of
what materials it consisted, and when be recollected the state-
ment which he himself had made in that house—namely, that
the whole church was against him—that the universities were
against him—that he had against him the landed interest of the
country—that he had against him the gentry of the country,
and that the great majority of the .peerage was against him—
when he recollected all this, was he (Lord Lyndhurst) not to
infer that the noble viscount would pause before he ventured to .
perseverei(tiitenatinrtiih
er:e:s .inthe course he had hitherto pursued? He now
came to the consideration of the measure before their lord-
ships'He considered it a distinct measure. • I Hear,
1 •) It was in itself distinct, and ought not to be en-
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wh thedead.
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