The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-05-04 00:00:00

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' • - ' - -7Clifirit- v. .T13.k..0770i- i.11:74151ia)- .S.-. - • - •
Dot tell what motives were, arid there foie they had better 'say .
noiiigit)q h
N
1.l he d lie i i etr witus?Wi'ent'ajgilreeil to. , , . - -
„ Mr•ttititreiliFlV iVY:Pulualrltttsaciii-itaitaa. a ,
t LI Or OI TON Said 'llio q,eistioui be understood, was
that the Finance- aa , '
_. ,le ,9ututittee he eoutirmail ..
As an amendment
tt:: tliatAe Ili'llt9tiatf -,!' that they he coutirnied with the excew•
"1"f tiliitliill w'it-ich relates to the erection of a,gallery in St..
Mieltaitriduliurcli " And beiore he entered ona tiiat part id the
husinet `lt'e'it,hil:.(l.r;quest the Town-clerk to read. he report ii
lit'' Su' i-eonitifitte. e.Olthe Fintiuce CrimMittee, matte itt March,
0118:36A1,,,,tiiiiiihrimOterzg.trt Was aina-yeect ti:
Thl,'„rolvtg-ci.biii,x .read the Minutes as desired, by which it
appeased that the Committee had restricted themselves tolsuch i
expend-it-tire as their Were legally hOurid.`to,disburse, by recoil'. -,
lambus"; thiit in- future the 'eipendittire--shOuld, be coutiued to
the strictly legal hes char s• '
.. • • . .
Mr. Councillor Britaroa.—Now sit'', that resolution having
been aPpreved uniniathriala by the council I beg to ask whether
the expenditure hitt a gallery.for St. Mich 'ief's church, which ,
will tie £205, cau be strictlyaenfered into by the council. 1 ask ,
your opinibh as the town-efetl. ;' ' - • ' '
The Tow N-c a Eli K said in considering that question he should
look at it iii two-lwayS. ';`he tirst question would be, was this i
expendilve advisabie wall reference to the pecuniary interests i
of the-Clf-tileilliT 'the peW rents ariiiog• from-that church ?It '
was Out frialairthta come,to- a conviosinta apiin any question of
fact aslo wfielfler give:4'M' this expenditure 'was advisable with
referettee -t e- the peewit:try interests of the corporation. If
the committee should tialveicortigt.o.,thec":onclusion that, with re-
fetenee to its' °Ocillitary -;,inteliests; treating the ciescrip-
lion of
,piratoerty iia. the„liews 'as _they- would treat any other
prodttetrve-property ()lathe corporation; that it was advisable
that this pecuniary expetise Shotild be 'entered into, be appre-
hended according tit the deiiiSiou of the qiiest ion lie made, such
expenditure, was justifiable, on. the part of the council. It
the CrituMiqee had come to an opposite couclusien, then, of
coarse; it would be an efependiture mit justifiable. With regard •
to the next consideration, bow .far this expenditure, ill the dis-
cretiOn of thacouneil-uught to he incurred. with reference to the
public benefit of the inhabitants,' it was 4 question which must
h
be deterinineclv the discretionary power of the timacil. lu
Otis opinion it would be expenditure for the public benefit of the
inhabitants, and timt,Consequently the cutiucil had the power to
deterinine that the expense should be incurred or not.
Me. Councillor Boa-I.ON said the subject he wished to bring
before the corporation. was one of great itnpertance, and before
decided noon, it - would he well to weigh the consequences to
which the decision of the' 'Town-clerk
.might lead. He main-
tained that nutter the municipal act, under the provisions of
which they sat there, every individual in the town was put on
terms of perfect equality—there was no distinction made iu the
lighting of the streets,, and' the watching of their property by
the police—and many-, other objects, all of which were of a
common nature and without reference to sect or party. 'rite
law referred only to the general goorl.,of the borough and its
inhabitants, and he asked* 'whether the expenditure now called
for was for the general good? He lodized around'tbere and he
saw a variety .of
,persons who entertained different beliefsathe
mayor, who attended one place of wtirship, Mr.'Shiel a 'Second,
Air. -Blackburn a third,: 111 r. Sands a fourth, Mr. Holtnee a
fifth—in fact he believed there. were not less than eight deno-
minations of Christians Composing the council; and he 'asked,
could this expenditure he justified for the general good ? No,
he said it was for the particular good of -One of these sects. In
the outlay in ;chest's or [looses or Warehouses they-always looked
far compensation inrentS. But in this iustauce this would not
tie the case, They might be Called upon to repair the church,
but this was not a repair, but the adding of a new gallery, an
enlargement; and if
,they could add a gallery', he did not see
why 'they'should not add-a a iug too; and:other sects, scab equal
justice, might Cinne and ask for;accoininodation for tilt chil-
dren. Had, the differeut denominations of Christians from
chapels "come to that corparitliOn- r" assistance? .Why shituld
the chitich'he 't he only per :sons conning with the beggingbox ?
The established church. had cnst that borough not ',less than
£15,000. a Year,: surely that wi,t, liutkty.enttugh for a particular
sect in religittra? With regard to the church, in question, he
belieVed on an average. its outlay for the last seven years was
£289; and, its income only_ L'slo. the last account its income
was only £305. froin pew rents, anil.V.O. for sale ofgraves, and
he Maintained that this further expenliture asked was Most un
justifiable as an investment which ' could riot be,maintained on
any principle whatever ; for,. in addition to the disbursement,
there would be Iran- corporate pews destroyed, which now .
brotight in an annual rental.' If it were acceded to, be believed
there was to be an-application fro:n St. Thombs's Church for
lining the Pek'Whieh was another StrOke'o'n the wedge, and he
thought it his duty, as far, as, pwsible, to prevent tbeexteusiou
of these pecufiat priYWhoett. - He uoderstriod there were about
300 children, and acaprnmedation was.vsariteii for eitk) or 800.
Mr. Pr, A'eT•saidittierSply-wanted ace,eniatalatien for 300. .
111 r. lloasaltivi. Ts ifan' adilitional;-300?.. • • .
Mr. PLATT.--'ll/4:19.,;;INO:Vnly• _ . •
Mr. BO 1.-rots oligerse :iticre, was acciiinnadation for 300 now.
He had read thiciteitiolillint he extracted from it. hat there
Was now siblitiaria;d4.ol" i'sVV),.tted the fair inference was
that: aceoktaidAWC-Xstlarlatiry, 300 inure. 'lf that were so,
it was niore'ilitilii °the it'all. i'4ge ifunibt-ir, for titers was accom-
modatieo 'fettle illtigh ot • ycid, in §.c. Thoolas's Church ; but
rt
if area; li4iille'fl,l2l(lll4 -fl,Oilalil;aCCO-intisoil ate at at. Michael's,
he 1041Xci itcha.a tile . big tlyaVe sulfiCreut 'at St. .Thomas's ou
easy tgfltrs: ' Nne f,'"drid'initler what `pretext did" they Seek
This ilap4vy wheA!,l.Leyiiii,,,,lit tiAviedlitialeEessary rooloeisewhere ?
Iletlititilth'eitliti'dp)6lollre,li 44 attdirional insult to the other
se* Vii OW Wvli.'"' '"Oti .143rslitif.t_ - teas :.fi i.s. i laought !iefore
ite
the'ajand . ittagurcNi44.7l'l.4 thv kioanee Committee, and in
tisaili44 it.',.S444elic:46y,tityrie Cloireli.tispenditure'Cirrn7
ani&j'ea642id-t . Oiectir trifift f)e referrkifto that cointrottee
'witlf4qB 40ni. ills retison tin, .that
.#4".s. that shortly after
1h e iiiiiiii MB wAiliAlbs TpaWaWC,lia la -I‘f, ',read, gigs at yo nsid c r 7
il)
atilatastlifie°, 10lieeit fiajaPO varuagte r;ifioit hit lite guidance.
or the council ix. ttatu raaaaareflAtaara for A ti, churches. That re-
portiliglam,r. p0)11 fits tln":-gdiole`o`r ale :Church . E xpendit ure
Cortliji ;‘ toClAittlkt"katy• OA fh 0 suggest ant of: the Cha rah,
1..1.01-, tyv.. Nipornitio*.4oo.te(y ~,,,.. him.seu, .at all events
.he Waal iretrit`hrvillAyel it, alto his.objeciWas, t hat that
eonaißtiteYil ariiitt,Chs'!-,' composed of ctia.relmic.p, and that that re-
11*".'sf
liiPl'iitgil-Clot should lie their guide. Flp'Snlnnitted
tha(jh sr 16%ti';lle part or the cwmpittee to erect tireealiery
in ratikit..:ti 0,-at'Va.aianct with tharreport. The tennis used.
41s a.
as fir TtiO'§li idliy;:goes ititi in the report 'were obligatory as
far hisa*Atifaii!* this ..vas not a repairing, it was au e::tett7.
sion, afit'l- d'llilftkrit it ought to 'Lie' resisted. ,
lidt.'Councillor Mottactioalas.iecuatled pie mottou,
Mr. Coutieilldr-Pi.Arkdisclainded4lNkether YvkliktlNy. Bolton,
Called ".a wedge:" The question resolVed itself into this,
should the mean bets of toe council sustain the interests of the
corporathi'it in that clititCh ? Xtiont oet.iildren had been, iu
the hatiituf going there frindasehoel iii Paht-street. Some nears
ago, touch to their credit . (he Messrs. Yatese.stabiished a school
4.
in Staunten-street for 'children' of all denominations. -froth
~
whence scliefars were triton to their respective places of wor7
shipa' and he asked whether accoinutodatieu should hot hepro-
vided for theni wittniat incounneding, the congretzati,n,. some
of whoth had retrieved to other places 'in consequence. of the
'nuisance created by the children. They merely wished to afford,
accOmmodatiOn for the children. without any desire.tointroduce,
the '° wedge," which Was an in teution 't
hat he disclaimed. Ile-;
therefere thought:the expenditure for the gallery was quite ne-
cessaityto sustain the in tere,n. they, had in. that, church. , , •
Air. Codaast' felt' great reluctinee in differing; from some
Ventlenien oh that subject. fie, however, felt with them that
by the municipal law all were. placed -rid the saute footing, and
if any attempt were. made to'el,evato one party at the expense of
another,' he would as 'certiially oppose it as did the 'gentlemen to
whom he alluded. But that vv.as not a question of the elevation
of one class or Christians above a'siOther, it wai.a question to be
considered as affecting property belonging to the corporation.
It was a corporatlivii church which had been erected before the
municipal law, with its "admirable Provisions," became the law
of the laud. • It 'had exclusive privileges, and they had not the
Power to alter them. 'The situate question in his view was,
whether, as a corporation edifice, wanting accommodation fur a
groat mass of the public, they were justified in going to that
expense. If it were a Catholic place of worship, or even an
Unitarian one, or a place
.of worship fer that " much repudiated
class called Quakers" from whom one gentleman (looking at
the Mayor) might thick himself happily released—if it were
from any one of these denominatiens of Christians, he should
sincerely support, such a proposition, if. the children could be
thereby better educated and made better members of society.
It
- appeared, that in the church there was not accommodatioa
flu the childreu, and they annoyed the congregation connected
with it. If the opinion• of the Town-clerk were as he thought
it was, a fair view of it, they were not restricted 'rotti expendi-
ture for such an'object. if it were for the pecuniary advantage
of the corporation, which lie thought' it was—and if it were for
fi.,
the advantage of the public, which he contended it would be.
su that he could see uo impropriety in it, or any :exaltation of
'me " sect" at the expense of another. But he hoperla higher
motive than pounds, shillings, and pence, would influMice thenu
lie certainly thought, as members of the council,. they were
hound to keep. the chinch in, good repair, they could not close
the doors; and so long as the doors were open, they were bohnd
to furnish that accommodatiiin which the public required.
Mr. Councillor Hoi,'r imagined they were not at liberty tit
indulge in motions agaiust the municipal act. He .Couteuded,
that the expenditure was not within the meaning of the nauni-
kjpal act, unless it could be shown to be advantageous to the.
korporation estate, which he did .not'thiuk it would be, and
ttherefore he should vote with Mr. Bolton.
Mr. Cuaiws considered the -chtirch as the property .of the
'el.Phratiou, :and they had heard from Mr. Bolton that its in-
.kurne was not equal to its expenditure.
feigned
iticonvenience which the_ congregation experienced from the
Illattering about of children was so great that that small iticuine
'llight be still further redtieed; and it, was ilso-ught that the
erection of a gallery fur the Children would prevent that de-
crease, and probably increase the .ineuir.e: It was on that
ground alone that the expenditure hail been fecommeteled 'Let
the higher grotiuds spoken of:by Alr..Coglanlie kept to them-,
•aslves: they all felt timid alid hail.themi.:AD the long speeches
they had had the pleasure of , hearin frdm Mr: Baltuu Were.oti
,
..'neral-principlee; abotit - wi-sicli ',here ,vas no dinibta. ,Nalitady
hail' an y doubt ;nut the municip.il act dill nog allow, any dis-
tinttion of sect. It was on alas ground of its beicg likely to be-
tiefitthe' corporate,esta: e• alone that the grant had beeu i cecina-
laiended by the Church ExpenditareCeunnittee. ,
Mr. Councillor HoittillY had never looked at the qUestion
'ether than one of a 'pecuniary nature affecting the col poste
estate,'and not, as Mr. Bolton insisted, the giants: a iatimiue ad-
vl•Mtage to one 'sect over another, - Ile was satisfied that the
receipts from. the church would diminish if the atinoyauce of
the children wilt not reinoved. ' He thought they were soaking
a reighty matter of a paltry affair; the interest Of the sum re-
quired would ainotint to •£5 ss. per annum;. if by the erect ion of
the gallery they could 'only let 4 or 5 additional peas-, that
would increase their-receipts by £2-i or £25 per annum. Since
the council had last tact he' had been told by the clers,vman
e
that' agentletnan had given-up' his pew in' consequenite of the
nuisance of the child, en being' scattered about the chereli as
at Present - The erection of a gallery was a matter tic' Deco-
14iary'interest; and on that ground only he recommended and
ailtiald support it.
Mr.' Councillor Henry LAWRENCK would not add anything
1° what had been- last stated, or 'to the Arquence of Mn.. Co,z-
han•';'-As to' the "wedge" mentioned by Mr. Bohm), he only
elZge'd to tirisure ' him that the application for lining the
Pews of St. Thomas's church had been at once refused- as a
;natter with which they hart nothing to do . .
Mr. Alderman EVANS then said, that on a late occasion he
had voted against such a tnction as that, but he should vote in
c
roll!, of the present ennti;m, and his reasons were thosCurged
Mr. Currie and others who had taken the same views. If they
in„,le the church hold a greater number' than at present, they
headed more likely to get a greater value out of it, and he awe-.
eilded that that would be the case. He wished to know ir the'
Pew rents-had ever been more than they were now?
Mr. Couucillor Pa agar. believed the.pew rents had Leen rather
mote

1.-r. Councillor MELdo it wished to say one word on the ques-
t;'llo It appeared to him, and always hail done whenever this
tinirch •expenditure question wasws brought forward, that Mr.
j""' lahoured.under one, grand error, of not dislinguishing•
fli'':)ween those churches which belonged to corporation, and
ro 6e which did not. It' any application were made to them
church in.which they bad no interest, he should resist
grantin.g. of money as much as Mr. Bvit4,n. But he con-
Vered this as merely a question, between landlord end tenant.
; were the propuittor of the church, and. they were-justified
(u.srien,, _ . ,
‘,, 'ong on it the sum. of money that was demanded.
ik 13()1.49N briefly replied. Be (opposed the resolution of
`ue finance ConaMittee, I.ecause.amougst other reasons,. when