The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-03-04 00:00:00

be thought responsible for reports of committees on which lee
was not.
Mr. Couneillor BATH RON E thought the names of this com-
mittee. ought not to be published. They were much obliged to
the-committee furnishing • it,, and they were bound to protect
them froth any odium which Might attach to the furnishing of
such particulars. ,
Mr. Alderman.STUAßT would second 'Mr. Cropper's motion.
Mr. Councillor EDWARD Clicieeim, for.one, felt no objection
to his name being added to that report. Ile thought it highly
important that the facts there stated should be laid before the
public.
Mr. Councillor E attLE had no objection to his name appear-
ing as attached to the report.
After some further conversation,
The MAYOR said there were gentlemen who wished the re-
port to be printed; they could take the sense of the council on
that point; and there were gentlemen who wished the names of
the furnishers of the report to he attached to it, which, from the
nature of its contents, was objected . to; they could next take
the sense of the council on that. He saw no 'reason to depart
from the usual rule.
The report, on the suggestion of a member of the council,
was then first adopted.
The MAYOR.—They would now decide as to its being printed.
Mr. Councillor E. SMITH wished to know what they were to
get by printing that document. He could riot see what was to
be got by affixing a stigma on their town in particular which
was shared by every large town in the kingdom. He thought
there was no greater degree of crime existed in this town than
in any other large town.
Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE expressed his concurrence
in what had fallen from Mr. Smith. He thought the subject a
very proper one to bring before the council. _He was one of the
committee who had adopted that report. He could-not con-
sider himself as adopting it.any further than as believingit to be
true. There was a great objection lb bringing all these things
before the public; it was enough to bring it before the magis-
trates and the council. He concurred in the propriety of
generally attaching the names of a committee to a report,but
not in this particular instance.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE HEYWORTH entirely differed
from Mr. Smith; the facts contained in that report were such as
the enblic'should know. It-was not likely that crime existed
particularky.in,this town, By publishing this report, the public
would be set to look out to see if those, crimes did not exist in
other large-towns:. (Ilear.) It was not by the force of law
that they were to make alterations in the state of crime; it was
by public opinion. (Hear.) Ile was confident that the better
part of the community would immediately express their abhor-
rence of-such a state of things, and that that opinion would have
mo-e effect in putting down those crimes than any law they
could make.
Mr. Councillor JORDAN.—The question asked by Mr. Smith
of Mr. Cropper had not been answered. To oppose such a
mass of crime required a good deal of activity and power on the
-part of. the police, andin eiving that power to the police it was
natural and necessary that the council should have public opi--
nion with them. The town should know the extent of crime
in order to judge of the extent of power necessary.to counteract
it. This state of things had arisen out of extraordinary neglect,
and the present- police would have to act in a manner to sup-
press it, which would probably be in a degree beyond the law.
The MAY on hoped not; as a magistrate, lie would not sup-
port any'police acting contrary to the law.
Mr. Councillor JORDAN thought the law might lean to excess
in that way.
Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE hoped .the law would
never lean to any excess. •
Mr. Councillor Hopa.—Would Mr. Crupper say to what ex,
tent he would have it published? ..
}}The MAYOR understood it was to be printed for the use of the
council.
Mr. Alderman EVANS was of opinion that they were losing
their time. The publishing was going on there, (pointing to
the reporters, amidst general cheers and laughter.)
Mr. Councillor BOLTON would propose that 500 copies be
printed to be distributed.
Mr. Alderman BLAIN thought it desirable that the magis-
trates should know the extent of crime. He-believed if they
could carry public opinion with them they would enforce the
fret extent of the law—they would support the magistrates and
the putteein the execution of their duty.
Mr: e,ohncillor HENRY LAWRENCE would
„move that 100
copies fie printed for the use of the magistrates and the council.
Mr. Councillor COGI:.AN• would second that proposition, as the
lesser or-two evils. Great praise was due to the gentlemen who
lied furnished that report. He believed, after all, that those
who bad had an opportunity of knowing mankind, appalling as
that picture was, it was familiar to,every individual who knew
society at all. It might not be known that there were such a
number of prostitutes, but it was known that houses of ill fame
did exist, arid, unfortunately, prostitutes also. It had been a
question whether these crimes were not necessary evils, He
believed that the object of the gentlemen in drawing up the re-
port was to prevent crime, and he thought that object would be
best accomplished by publishing it to the magistrates and the
council without giving it to the public ; and let the silent ope-
ration of the law work its effect. He made .no doubt but th a
gentlemen connected with the press would, if requested,• yield
to the wishes of that council, and suppress the report if it were
not thought right to publish it. He begged leave to move that
the report be not published at all; it would be shocking the
feelings of the inhabitants of the town, audit would be painfu
to the feelings of the virtuous part of the community, withou
accomplishing any end which might not be gained by the alien
operations of the law.

. Mr. Councillor LA WRENCE would second that proposition.
Mr. Councillor HATHBONE WOUM support the original mo-
tion: He considered that .a very important question of morals
was involved in the decision of that day. He was certain that
no gentleman who was not a member of the committee could
have believed the extent of crime which existed in this town
He was not one of those who thought it cast any reflections on
Liverpoain particular—it nrust.exist in every large town. Ile
thought it important that the full account should be published,
and that every member of his majesty's government should
have a copy of that report. He thought the infoimation Mach
bad been brought forward ought to be communicated to them.
Councillor Dr. CAfiS6N conSidered the document; an excel-
lentstatistical one,• and that it -cught to be published. He
agreed with the last speaker, and thought that no particular
odiuna.could attach to- Liverpool-from that report being dirtrlg
ed, as he believed such crimes were common to all large towns.
Mr. Councillor J. CROPPIiIt, being called ou by. Mr. Smith to
state his object in bringing forward that report, said his object
was that it might not be made a dead letter—that the public
might assist the law in suppressing crime.
The MAyoa then read Mr. Cropper's motion, seconded by
Mr. Stuart, " That it be printed," and . also 'Mr. Coglare's
amendment, seconded by dr. Lawrence, " That it be not
printed."

Air. Councillor CROPPER would alter-his motion to "500 be
printed," which was seconded by Mr. STuAirr.
Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE would alter his amend-
ment to, "10J be printed for the magistrates and the council ;"
which was seconded by Mr. Colan, as " the lesser evil." On
the division there appeared, 23 for the amendment, and 29 for
the motion " that 500 be printed

TOWN DUES' COMMITTEE.
The TOWN-CLERK proceeded to read the report of the town
dues committee, which was ordered to lie on the table to be re-
ferred to.

TOWN-CLERIC'S APPOINTMENT. •-•••
Mr.'RATHBONE said Mr. Earle had given him such a touching
look at the previous meeting-when he prayed for more time to
consider the question of the town-clerk's salary, and therefore if
it was any wish of the council that the Matter should be adjourned
till Friday, he had no objections. His only wish for forwarding
the business was, that the town-clerk might not be called to
London before anything was settled.
The MAYOR begged to
.say that the fault of the council not
!riving the report of the town-clerk's committee on Saturday
last rested with him. The town-clrk being out at the time it
was ordered to be printed, and no one taking minutes it had
escaped his memory till the evening before.
Mr. Councillor EARLE, as he wrs alltded to by Mr. Rath-
bone, would say that he was anxious to see this report in order
to make some inquiries before he entered on the discussion of
the ques ion, and he had not seen it till he entered that room,
and was consequently prevented front making any inquiries.
The Ma Y tt.—M r. Rath bone had put it to the council whether
they would defer the discussion till Friday.
Mr: etinci!lor HENRY LAW R ENCE would move that the re-
quisite notice.had been given, if Mr. Rathboue would withdraw
his Motion.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON said they heard the report read on
Saturday, and it was improper to defer it. There were not any
additional facts.
Mr. Councillor EA RLE.—If it were persevered in he should
move that the discussion of the question he deferred till Friday.
He should not go into the subject; be was not prepared.
Mr. Councillor SHIEL was unprepared, from absence. lie
was also at a loss to account for the detention of these reports ;
for he saw one of them wns only a single page, and might have
been printed in less than three days.

The MAvoa repeated his apology, and the .reason of their
delay.
Mr. Councillor SHILL begged to agologise. He thought it
would be well for the council to arrange amongst themselves
that,'whenever subjects of .great importance were to be brought
forward for discussion, they should not be brought on at a meeting
called at three days' notice. He was a man of business like
many of them, and must attend to his own affairs sometimes.
He might therefore be compelled to be absent. As he wished to
do his duty to his constituents, he did not wish to_be absent on
such occasions; and that, on important questions, longer notice
should be given in order that they might better arrange to be
present.
The MAYOR, in answer.—Motives of extreme urgency were
stated as the cause of their meeting ou Saturday last. Was it
their pleasure that the sttbject should be adjourned until Fri-
day ?
Mr. Alderman BROWN thought they could not delay the ap-
pointment of town-clerk for any length of time; the public
service would be delayed. _ _

The TOWN-CLERK then said, before he retired froth that. room
he wished to be distinctly understood on three points, rewirding
.which he would be as bridf as he could. In the first place, when
he was honoured by. the temporary appointment conferred upon
him, it was clearly understood that his acting fur that time in
the capacity of town-clerk gave him no claim on the council as
to the ultimate . appointment. That was one point which he
wished distinctly to have understood had not been forgotten by
him now the period was about to arrive when that appointment
was to be made. The second point was, that whatever his too
partial friends might be pleased to say of him, he put himself
forward merely as willing to devote such abilities as he possessed
to their service, without comparing those abitities, whatever
they might be, to the talents of any other member of his pro-
fession; but fcunding his tender of services to them more in the
devotion he was disposed-to make of such powers as he possessed
and could exercise in their service. The ,third point he wished
to be understood, was this, if it should so happen that he should
not have the honour of serving the council in the office of, town-
clerk, he wouid wish it to be distinctly understood that, satisfied
as he was that their separation would take place on terms ho-
pourable and satisfactory to both, it would be his duty, having a
deiire to place himself completely at the disposal of the council
as to all business in progress until final arrangements were made.
as to the office he now held; and therefore he should be as ready
to go to London that night, if necessary, on the dock bill, or any
other marter on his hands, if he was not appointed town-clerk,
as he should he ready to go if he were appointed. (Hear.) As
far as regarded himself, it was of little difference in the situation
he should return to, or if he should remain in their service:
both would require all the labour he could give to them. The
choice with him depended on the ambition he felt to serve the
public in an official situation, (Applause.) The town-clerk
then left the room.

Mr. Councillor RATHBONE.—He must on this occasion claim
their indulgence. He most sincerely wished that the duty of
bringing this question forward had devolVed on some more able,
more talented, and more reading man than himself. He felt
that it was a question involving most important pripciples, and-
he felt that the character of the council was that day dependant
very much on the decision they formed. He could not consent
to urge, in the first instance, pounds, shillings, and pence. He
thought, after the statement they had just heard of the enor-
mous amount of crime, and the evils which had resulted from
the negligent adi: ;niF.tration before .after whit they had seen
(he would use th' v,iidest term) of the inefficiency and-neglect
which had existcc, is,sv must proceed on broader grounds. He
could not help feeling that it was the duty of that council to get
the first legal assistance they could=the first not merely in