The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-07-03 00:00:00

provision. He began by appealing to the frequent petitions
in favour of his object, as evidence of the great interest felt
for it throughout the country. The petitions were upwards
of 2500, and the signatures to them 213,589. The prayer of
these numerous petitioners was not for a selfish exemption
or a privilege, but for a benefit to their fellow-creatures at a

cost to themselves. For many centuries the churches of
England had hardly been increased in number ; but, on
the other hand, even within the present century alone,
the population had augmented by considerably more than
6,000,000 of souls. It was said of a national religi that
though forced upon none it should be offered to all

'lon, t.
To the

abseilce of churches and church instruction in certain popu-
lous districts he attributed the political disturbances which
had prevailed there. So strongly was this felt among the
parties most nearly concerned, that the petitions from the
small covszty of Monmouth alone exceeded in number" the
petitions from all the four of the metropolitan counties. The
argument by which he expected to be opp6sed was, that the
subject was one with which the state had no concern ; for the
state, it was said had no conscience. But surely, whatever
duty a man was bound to perform in his private character, he
was bound to advance by his public power and influence, even
in times of great difficulty and pressure on the people. This
object (continued the honourable baronet) had been aided by
government—first under Mr. Perceval, and then under Lord
Liverpool. It was said the dissenters were the majority of
the people, and, at all events, ought not to be taxed for a
faith they disapproved. He referred to statistical returns to
prove that they are not the majority; and, being but a mi-
nority, they were bound by what the majority might deter-
mine. It had been said that the Church of England was
already the richest church in the world. But if all the be-
nitices were equalised, they would not average £3OO a-year.
In fact, one-third of all the property once blonging to the
church was now in lay hands. Nor was it justifiable to take
the existing property of a rich living to endow new founda-
tions. It had been done, indeed, with respect to bishoprics,
which were in the gift of the state ; but it could not be done
with respect to advowsons, which were private property.
The voluntary system had been proposed for our adoption.
A sufficient answer was to he found in the spiritual destitution
of America, the only country in which the system had ever
been tried. It was a system, • too, which could do the least
where it was most wanted—namely, where the population
was the poorest and most ignorant. Indeed, the need was
the greatest where the sense of that need was the smallest.
The evil was, perhaps, most grievous, in certain districts of
the metropolis. The dissenters did a good deal, but rather
among the middle than the poorest classes. It had been ad-
mitted, in a report to which Lord Melbourne, Lord J. Russell,
and the Lord Chancellor, as well as several dignitaries of the
church, were parties, that the resources of the church were,
inadequate to redress this evil. The legislature of Prance, a
country much admired by some gentlemen opposite, had set
an example, since 1837, of voting huge sums for the erection
of churches. It was not now to be considered an open ques-
tion, whether this nation should or should not have an esta-
blishment. He believed the established church to be the
true one ' • and for that reason, and by reason too that the
state had recognised and enshrined it as the true one, he now
asked this aid. But even in the lowest view, as a mere mat-
ter of policy, the expenditure he recommended would be an
expedient one. If you would build more churches, you
would have to build fewer gaols. The inmates of the gaols
were in practice found to come mainly from those districts in
which religious instruction was most deficient. But he
wished rather to place the question upon higher ground—to
put it to the great manufacturers and traders who brought
large masses of people together from rural parishes into towns
possessing no means of religious instruction, whether they
did their whole duty by those poor people in merely paying
them their wages, without making any provision for their
Fpiritual welfare. There were various modes in which the
legislature might do its duty on this subject :—by direct
grant—by purchase of impropriations—by increase of the
number of services—by a new arrangement of pews—and by
other means which he would not now stop to enumerate.
Who were the opponents of this motion ?—an unholy alli-
ance between the Roman Catholics and the political dissen-
ters. Refuse this aid, and you consign millions of souls to
heathenism, and to its consequences, vice and immorality,
from which yourselves must be the sufferers. Mere intellec-
tual education would not suffice to keep your youth from
evil courses ; religious instruction must be combined with it.
It was now nine o'clock, and the ministerial benches being
at this time somewhat fuller than those occupied by the
conservatives,

Mr. HUME, who had given notice of an amendment, for-
bore to offer himself to the house, obviously in the hope of
forcing a premature division. But before the galleries were
half cleared,

Mr. GAILY KNIGHT rose to continue the debate. He
bore testimony to the want of spiritual instruction in various
manufacturing districts, particularly those of Nottingham'
and Manchester. It was said that the present was not a con-
venient season for this proposal ; but on so great a subject
no season could be inconvenient. If the legislature waited
for a season of fietancial surplus, they would wait for ever..
There was plenty of money to spend on commercial specida-
tions, and we had '',ranted £20,000,000 to abolish slavery ;
was nothing to be done for the salvation of our poor country-
men at home? He believed that the whole body of dissenters
in England, Roman catholics and Wesleyans included, was
short of 3,000,000, and such a minority ought not to be a
bar against so great a benefit to the rest of the people. He
called the attention of the house to the state of the church
building acts, which he said were complicated, and in some
respects impolitic, and required consolidation.
The gallery having again been cleared for a division,
Mr. V. STUART said that his own friends were not treat-
ing the question fairly; and that if they could give no answer
to the elaborate statements made on the other side, he should
vote with Sir R. Inglis. He had been returned, indeed, by
a Roman catholic constituency, but he was an attached mem-
ber of the church, and if his conduct gave offence he was
ready to resign his seat.
Lord DUNGANNON censured the silence of the government,
whose duty it was to explain themselves upon so important a
subject.
Mr. WARD then rose to carry on the discussion. In the
first place lie disliked the expense. He thought, likewise,
that to the 3,000,000 of English dissenters should be added
the 8,000,000 of Irish catholics, and the 3,000,000 of Scotch
Presbyterians. He objected that the motion would reverse
the appropriation principle, and tax the Irish people to main-
tain a church which they felt to be already " too much."
The mover had complained that the town districts, such as
Glasgow, were disturbed in consequence of the want of re-
ligious instruction ; and then called on the house to tax the
people of Glasgow for the erection of an English church
there, which, when built, they would never enter. His opi
nion of the mover's honesty was somewhat shaken by his not
having ventured to state his own plan, or the amount of
money to be called for. The example of France had been
quoted, but France made proportionate provision for all
creeds. He thought this an ill-judged motion, and likely to
sow strife. But it was also as undefined motion ;it asked
nothing specific. if a small matter, such as .£20,000, were
all that was wanted, it was not worth talking of, but if a
quarter of a million per annum were sought, let members
answer their vote to their constituents.

Mr: iiTiNEsClisclainied all intention to treat the subject
as a matter of enthusiasm ; he would treat it as a matter of
practice and common sense. It was not for the mover to
specify the sum ; that was for her Majesty's ministers. He
admitted the uselessness of building churches that would
stand empty ; but he believed that among the inventions for
the amelioration of society the residence of a Christian mi-
nister was one of the most beneficial. He could not consent
to leave matters in their present condition, between a godless
despair and a brutal fanaticism. He would not say the church
is in danger; but he would say the state is in danger. _

Mr. BliN7Es;rent into a long examination of the statistics
in the report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, for the
purpose of showing that the deficiency of church room was
an evil of only half the extent therein represented. lie re-
peated the usual arguments by which Dissenters oppose
church-rates, and he made light of the petitions in favour of
this motion, which lie characterised as paltry things, got up
in holes and corners. The first fruits and tenths should have
been differently levied and applied, and then there would
have been no such deficiency as was now complained of. If
Sir R. Inglis would modify his proposal into a motion for
inquiring what church extension was necessary, to that, per-
haps, be might agree.
Mr. O'CONNELL objected to the indefinite amount of the
demand. Besides, if population had increased, so had the
wealth of the church. Tithes had become more valuable in
themselves, and :more land had been rendered titheable by
cultivation. Lords and bishops gave money for missionary
societies to teach abroad : why not apply their money in
teaching at home ? Until the Reformation no tax bad ever
been imposed for building churches. If churches were wanted
why did not this rich country subscribe ? The Roman Ca-
tholic heirarchy in Ireland was maintained by subscription ;
yet Ireland was a far poorer country. Call for more money?
What connexion had money with religion ? Would not
genuine zeal be active enough unless stimulated by money?
He hoped we were. coming to a state of things when the
voluntary system would be universal. At all events it was a
manifest injustice for the church to make those who dissented
from her pay taxes for the increase of her establishment. _

Lord TEIGNMOUTH attempted to speak amid much tumult.
He proposed to controvert Mr. Baines's statistical details ;
but the house indicated a great unwillingness to entertain
that sort of discussion at so late a period of the debate. He
therefore abridged this part of the argument, and addressed
himself to the working of the voluntary system, which he
described as having been lamentably unsuccesful.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that after the recent imposition
of taxes, a still further taxation, for the purpose of the
establishment, would excite touch discontent, especially
among those who dissented from its doctrine. The church
stood well at present with the people, and it was not prudent
to run the risk of injuring its popularity. Besides, there
were other means of supplying the want. A considerable
sum might be raised from the improved management of
church leases. A small per centage on the incomes of the
larger benefices had also been proposed. He was not, indeed,
prepared to recommend that resource, but yet he should
prefer it to any imposition of fresh burdens on the people at
large.
byO nthtei-'eprwehselolt le,
he thought the church would not be a
gainer
proposal; nor was the house yet in
possession of the information necessary for enabling it to de-
termine the extent of the deficiency.
At half-past twelve the house divided. The numbers
were, for the motion, 149 ; against it, 168; majority against
it
19.
Lord J. RUSSELL afterwards obtained leave to bring in the
NewTh
eS or
eunt a
iNiNi aing les
ug
so
ivneersusmheanv
nbgi l.
been disposed of, the house
adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—WEDNESDAY
The House of Lords did not meet to-day.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.---WEDNESDAT
There not being 40 members present at four o'clock, the
STRAKER. declared the house to. stand adjourned till tomor-
row. There were 35 members IR attendance.

THE DEPARTURE OF THE CONVICT GOULD.—Yesterday
in the prison
morning "a draft" of convicts, who were found guilty ;:t the
late Old Bailey Sessions, were placed van and
conveyed to Woolwich, Preparatory to their voyage to New
number was the notorious Richard
South Wales. Among the
e
Gould, for a burglary in the house of the late Mr. Temple-
hand of benevolence
man, at Islington. A few weeks ago the
embarked was extended on his behalf, and he as a free man
to the same latitude to which be is now consigned as a
felon,
,
loaded with chains. Brave as he tried to
it
is well
known that the contrast weighs heavily on his mind ' It is
,
understood that, on his arrival at the colony, the " Log-book'
of daily deportment during the voyage will give a discretion-
ary power to the governor to determine whether he shall be
disposed as of an assigned servant in an agricultural district,'.
or as an incorrigible offender, sent to work in darkness and
chains in the mines of Norfolk Island.--Morning Herald of
Tuesday.

DEATII ox Ma. COCKERILL.—We have received from
Liege a very melancholy piece of i
Cockerill," says a letter dated the 2.l4lltieilislitgen"lVlr.
Warsaw, at which city he arrived on the 12th.; " has died at
June
e assembled
by St. Petersburgh. This news was brought toof1; !--
from
Liege by a
courier. A council of advocates was immediately
by the trustees, to consider what was to be don
quence of this event." " Mr. Cockerill." says the Jeo" u nse-
i
of Liege," died on the 19th, at seven in the morning: havingra
been carried off in a few days by a brain fever, at the age of
50 years. During his illness he was visited by Prince
Paskewitsch, who immediately sent to him the chief physician
of the army. Mr. Cockerill has no children. It is not yet
known whether he has left a will. His heirs are 13 in num-
ber."--" Mr. Cockerill," says a biographer, " was born on
the sth of April, 1790, in the little town of Haslingden, in
the county of Lancaster. At the age of 12 his father sent for
him to Verviers, where he had settled a few years after the
birth of his son John, who was one day to acquire a repute-
ion extending beyond the bounds of Europe."