The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-05-18 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONTS.—TuisbAY.

The gallery was not open till a quarter ;11erfOU-r- o'clock, in
"c-ic,quence of the ballots having been fixed for Bolton-le-
Nef.‘irs and Bury St. Edmund; but neither were proceeded
with.

Mr. M rt,Rs, the chairman of the Waterford committee, re-
p.irted that H. W. Barron, Esq., was duly elected, and that
neither the petition nor the opposition thereto was frivolous or
vexatious.

EASTERN CI3UNTTES RAILWAY

M r.'ltocitn inos;ed the second readingot the eastern counties
railway bill.
Captain PacHELt„ Mr. R. PALMER, and other members,
presented petitions against the bill•
A desultory discussion ensued, after which
Mr. O'Cosmkti. moved as an amendment that the bill be
read R second time that day fortnight.
The amendment was agreed to Without a division.
A ,(rent number of petitions, on various subjects, were pre-
sented.

BIRNIIINGKAM AN'D IMISTCM RAILWAY.

Mr. lie N DLtiY moved the second reading of the Birmingham,
Bristol, and Thames junction railway bill.
Captain Woon opposed the bill.
Afters short explanation from Mr. lisrtinxy,
Captain Wool, withdrew his opposition, and the bill was read a
second time, and ordered to be committed.
The report on the Londonderry bridge hill was brought up
and agreed to.

SAviNGs' BANKS

. Mr. IlinuN gave notice that on the 22d of May he should sub-
mit a motion to the house on the subject of savings' banks.
M r. E. "rENNENT gave notice that on an early day he should
call the attention of the house to the necessity of a direct mail
conveyance between Duhlin and Belfast.
-Several rout hills were read a third time and passed.
The notice 4 of motion which stood for this evening were post-
poned until future days.
A short discussion ensued as to the new mode of lighting the
himse. No decision was come tn.
A DJOCIVIED DEBATE.-A PPROPIIIATION Ct.ACSF.

The'order of the day for resuming the adjourned debateupon
the Irish tithes bill having been read,
Mr. Lrisroar said he would, as briefly as he could, state the
noinions which induced him to vote against the details and
against the principle of the resolutions, and to support the ino-
tremor the hon. baronet, the inerfiber for North DeVoti. It was
's great !satisfaction to him to know that his opinions co'ssacided
l-ais those art. 0.-eat mass of the protestant population of Ire-
and s and•that there were-rers or the mein tier,.. or rriO -establigne'd
church in that country who did not perceive the injury which
those resolutions, if carried into effect, must inflict on protes-
tantion. (Hear,- from the opposition.) The clergy them-
%elves ought to beconsulted on a question of this kind, and they
were all unanimous in opposition to the measure. There was
therefore no ground•for the assertion which was so boldly made
on the other side, that the bill was a boon to the clergy. They,
on the contrary, considered it a measure striking at the roots of
private property, and tending to the ruin of the chnrch. The
noble , lord,optrilsite had-very truly stated, that this measure
shpnlit: he looked upon with a view to its effects upon the peace
oft Ireland. (Hear, hear.) But he thought that the more fair
. course for the noble lord would be, to give the opponents of the
areasare, on his (the opposition) side of the house, the oppor-
tunity of explaining fully the principles which would induce
them to vote for the motion of the hon. baronet, and against the
resolutions. If the disenssion were fairly, fully, and plainly
taken, the resolutions of 1835 must be removed from the books,
because they forced on the house in advance the principle of
appropriation, which every one sitting upon that side of the
house most strenuously opposed.. He thought it important that
the house, and especially the English members on both sides of
the house, should know "the exact state is which the property of
the church of Ireland was at present placed, what were its gene-
ral receipts, what was the state of the payments of the tithes of
that country owing to the working of the various acts of parlia-
ment which had been introduced, that they might appreciate
the suggestion that in offering what was called a boon, by the
present resolution, anything of service was done to the clergy,
or anything effected, save a spoliation of their incomes. By
the operation of Lord Stanley's Act, which was passed in 1832,
two modes" were suggested, by which the payment of tithe
Mat taken from the occupier. ( Hear, hear, hear.) The first
was by the landlords who hail the imwer to undertake the pay-
ment of tithes, to enter into a contract which made them liable
to the clergyman for the entire tithes of their estates, giving
them for the trouble of collection and the risk of loss, a bonus of
Iles per cent. In the province of Ulster six-sevenths at least of
the ithes of that province were paid by the undertaking land-
lords.- The clergy in that province had not to encounter the
hostility of the tenants, for they were dealing with those who
throughout all Ireland were paying the tithes—he meant the
landlords.' The clergy of Ulster were thus paid five-sixths, or
six sevenths, of their income, without the slightest difficulty or
loss. They had just as much title, as easily enforced; arid as
staCceaSfully aetedupors, as any landlord had to his rent. There-
' fore, as to that -course; he would ask what bonus was given to
them by deducting at once an additional 15 per cent., without
the slightest necessity for it, or the slightest return being made
for it. They dist not come into collision with the occupier; they
'hada fixed stettled title—settled ha law, for which both remedies
at law and in equity hadheen given them; and he would venture
to say, that there was no instance in the province of Ulster, in
Nvhicit•the landlord had forced the clergy to sue him at law for
that which was not tithes, hut rent charges; with respect to the
other clauses, stheother provisions of Lord Stanley's art, in every
eivouof a tenancy from year to year, subsequent to August, 18.33
in every case of a lease mods-sit-ice that period, the landlord was,
by that,very act, of having his lend discharged, charged with the
tithe, without deduction. Every tease made since 1832, and
every existing tenant from. year to year, is not liable to the pay-
mental, tithes, but the landlord is liable I'm, it. Now, his object
was-to alum that in the southern and western parts of Ireland
I bogs most disaffected towards the payment of tithes were now
willingSto pay them, Ile would also say with respect to the
eccuviers, that the great proportion of them paid their tithes.
Now' be would undertake to say; that when the returns which
he should move for were laid upon the table, it would be shown,
opoh an average, that the clergy-received 50 per cent. of
then- tithes without" deduction: 'Was •it any boon to take
anything from fifty per cent., which was really paid?
Do they produce peace, and any absence of litigation ?
Do (hey produce regularity of collection with respect to this
fifty per cent.? Regularity and punctuality they already had
without litigation, and with the assistance of his lay brethren of
the protestant faith, who were in fact the real payers of the
tithe, the landlord was the real payer of the tithe both in
England and in Ireland ;• the clergyman was in peaceable re-
.ceipt'of 50 per cent. The fifty per cent. paid without the
trouble of collection, and without its being the source of litiga-
tionf was it a boon to gw'e him at a loss of thirty per cent.?
The,fifty per cent. was now secured to him—as secure to him as
the well-paid rents of any gentleman in the house. It was upon
these grounds that he impugned the first resolution—it was an
sincalled-for reduction of the intanneof a clergyman, upon which
he depended, and might reduce him to- beggary and ruin. So
far he had endeavoured to show the house that by,this first re-
solution they were acting most unjustly. It was very well to
talk of taking off fifteen per cent. from the incomes of the
clergy, but it would by and by reach one hundred per cent.,
(hoar, hear,) and that merely for the sake of satisfying a cer-
tain party, and if the clergy refused they would then be called
A grasping and grinding set, who preferred money to the safety
-of the -realm. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) With respect to
the incomes of the successors ot' the present clergy, he begged
'the attention of the house while h© stated his total dissent from
the version of the noble lord who closed the-debate last night
• 'moan the effect of these 'resolutions. Notwithstanding the
government had avoided any very distinct enunciation of an in-
tention to appropriate to secular purposes any income of the
"present clergy, be must be allowed to say that he would demon-
- strate that with respect to their successors, those resolutions, if
passed, hound the house and the country to appropriate for
every year four-fifths of the income of the church. (Hear,
hear.) . The house would please to observe that, by the second
of these resolutions, so much of the rent charge as was now paid '
in lieu of tithes should be purchaseafde by the government, at
sixteen years' purchase, at the rate of seventy per cent. The
clergy were no longer to receive tithes, or the, existing rent-
charge ; but, instead of either, they were to receive an an-
nuity from the consolidated fund, which, be contended, would
not, according to those resolutions, produce more than 31 per
Jo
hn
s (Hear, hear.) The noble lord opposite (Lord
s I - cried " Hear, hes r," hut he (Mr. Litton) would assert
pOti.
I oe, We ore info; le of the clergy was cersidered, the
riittslif) 'Wso s • sil pr :•c‘ ,-..e •,;* the rent-charge• would be 'to
it 10. P , i . AV: t
,ytree .-int. talti ,•,,, r ....eat., but to 515 per cent. (Hear,
Nat
WO o.*
On' 00 .• -- . .ik m,ble 1 - wan to saY that the sixteen Vears' •
IL '''' ,'' . - invr,tpd not in the funds' Emit in
ssso 'sat i5r.....) agrt '' - ' '. •
.1741.• '- ' Jvn, , ~!I.—• No, no not inland.")
, ~4 ' - • ' 1. • , . '
.7, ~,...
,„ -
~i,,-•-• . ~ , ,w,t, A„ y,,,,, lo ,71,1,;which would give the
- .e.e....,...A.,-. --,:‘ .. Y 4'Sq4 ll,ti ....mt, in many parts of Ireland,
1r
;61 ~,42.,"1. v! • 4 l'falgaissi:woula o, ' ield reose than PI per
WI 4% 1::•-; 1- • •,. • • , • . _