The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-08-07 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—THunsDAY

The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
4fdtc the presentation
tprieirtri report
on h
dsn of several
privatepetitions,eralbiils n
aondthdeepoorsdietrbiollf
the y
being read.
Mr. P. THOMPSON said its object was, that deposits on
public works, instead of being placed in the hands of the
clerk of the house, should he committed to an officer created
by act of parliament.
The report on the Militia "Ballot Suspension Bill was re-
ceived.

The Slave Trade (Sicily) Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Slave Trade (Tuscany) Bill was also read a third
time and passed.
The Transfer of Funds (War-office) was read a third time
and passed. - •
The Affirmation of Oaths Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed.

The Militia Pay Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed. _

The Stamp Dies Bill and the Valuation (Ireland) Bill were
also read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
The Forms of Pleading Bill was read a third time and
passed. •
The Joint-Stock Banks Bill was read a third time and
passed.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the order of the day for the
consideration-of the lords' amendments in the Irish Corpo-
rations Bill. In doing so, be would first state the course he
intended to pursue. He had not to go over the ground which
he was obliged to do in 18.36, as the house of lords had con-
curred in adopting the principal of municipal corporations.
They had admitted the principle, but the lords had made many
most important amendments to the bill. When he said that
the principle of the bill had been adopted by the other house,
there his satisfaction stopped—(hear)--for he could not
think the bill in its present shape could be satisfactory to
Ireland. ( Hear.) The house of lords had expunged no less
than 26 classes, and added 92 new clauses to the measure,
and that great alteration was'made in a debate which did not
occupy more than six hours. He should propose that that.
house require a conference with the lords, to ask for the rea-
sons which induced their lordships to make such important
alterations in the bill, and also to request that these altera-
tions might be further considered and discussed. The noble
lord then said it became his duty to call the attention of the
house to the alterations made by the other house. The first
was the alteration in the 4th clause, which affected the right
of freemen voting in the election of members of parliament.
.He considered the alteration made in this clause of a very
suspicious character. It was conferring a right on individu-
als to vote who were not entitled to the elective franchise.
Sir 11. PEEL:, No, no.
Lord Jou ia itussaaa : 'rhe right honourable baronet says,
No, that was not the intention or meaning; he (LortrJohn
Rossell,)therefore, trusted the right honourablelaronet would
not object to the insertion of certain words, to make the clause
plain:—(Hear.) -It appeared to him,in the numerous amend-
ments which had been made by thelords, that there existed
a studied design to keep corporate rights and privileges in the
hands of their present possessors.—( Hear.) Now, theobject
of introducing a corporate reform was to take these trusts out
of the hands of those who had proved themselves unworthy of
their trust.—(pear, bear.) 'lle had equally strong objections
to the amendments -made for the regulation of charity trus-
tees. By the 88th clause, there was a very singular power re-
served to trustees for lighting and paving the town. Amend-
ments had also been made for the regulation of trust property,
1 hick never could be effective. In the year 1836, the house
of lordS, in an address to the crown, expressed their willing-
ness to correct abuses in corporations in Ireland; and the
remedy that house proposed was to abolish them altogether
In the 180th clause, an amendment had been made, which.
cut at the very principle of the bill. It conferred on town-
clerks, bailiffs, chamberlains, and other corporate officers, the
right of retaining their respective offices, the same as if this
act had not been passed. It was, in his opinion, cotnfirming,
the right of officers in now existing boroughs, whose corpora-
tions were to be abolished by the tll], the right of demanding
their emoluments. He thought this altogether altered the
principle of the bill. He thought the house of lords wished
' to preserve the powers of the old corporations, and limit the
powers of the new--(Hear, hear.) That, he thought, was
hharrow-minded view which their lordships had taken of
übject.—(Hear.) He wished to give to Ireland-corpo-
rations in such a liberal sense that the inhabitants would take
au interest in the local management of their affairs. He
wished, above all, things not to create political bodies, or give
political power to any tarty. There are many other altera-
tions which had been made in the bill, but to which he (lid
not think it would be necessary to raise any strong objection.
The amendment which limited the granting of corporations
to the twelve largest towns, and leaving it optional on other
towns to accept a charter of incorporation, was in his
opinion, objectionable; but not so much so as to call for any
particular remark, as it might before conveniently discussed
hereafter. Most important alterations had been made iv the
elective franchise. Ten pounds rent. had been inserted as a
qualification instead of £5. The lords had also made it ne-
cessary that the party claiming a vote should have occupied
the premises for twelve months, instead of six months, as was
agreed to by the house of commons after a long debate. These
were important alterations, and would require the most seri-
ous consideration. He should propose to disagree to all the
provisions which conferred privileges and powers not en-
joyed under the English Corporation Act.—(Hear, hear.)
He should propose, therefore, when they Caine to those
clauses, that the Commons disagree with them. With re-
spect to the giving of corporations to a certain number of
towns, and leaving it optional to others, he should not pro-
pose to disagree with. (Hear.) He thought also words
might be introduced into various clauses which would render
the machinery of the bill less cumbersome. With respect
to the municipal boundaries and the division of wards, he
should also propose a clause. The clause relating to chari-
ties he should move that it be restored to the bill in the same
state as when the measure left the House of Commons.
With respect to the franchise, he considered that he had
high authorities for saying that it ought to be lower in Ire-
land than in England. The noble lord then said, that he
must detain the house at some length on the subject of the
value of property in Ireland. He considered the test of
rating a bad criterion for ascertaining the value of property.
If he did not insist upon retaining the original qualification
of the House of Commons, yet he did not think it would be
wise to adopt that of the House of Lords. (Hear.) Wishing
to find some better-test of franchise, he should propose that
a person rated at £8 per year should be declared entitled to
the exercise of the elective franchise. If persons were rated
at £B, it was only fair to suppose that they were of the annual
value of £lO and upwards. He could not see the justice of
making the franchise higher in Ireland than en England and
Scotland. (Hear.) He made this proposition to increase
the franchise, under the hope that the question of municipal
reform in Ireland, which had been debated so long and fre-
quently.in parliament for atiumber of years, might be brought
to a satisfactory and amicable arrangement. (Hear.) He

trusted of succeeding in convincing the House of Lords that
the amendments they had made required further considera-
tion. (Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said, the noble lord, too, had indulged in
needless, unjustifiable, and, he thought, very unwise sarcasms
(cheers) upon the authors of these amendments. ( Hear.)
The noble Lord began his speech by a sarcasm upon their
lordships for having changed their opinions respecting Irish
corporations. When he recollected the discussions which
had taken place upon the question of the Irish church, and
reflected upon the. course, the wise course he would say,
which the noble lord had taken, in receding from the opi-
nions he had maintained upon that question—the noble lord
was, he conceived, the last quarter from which he ought to
have expected to hear sarcasms directed against those who,
far the sake of peace, were ready to sacrifice their feelings.
(Cheers.) The right hon. baronet proceeded to defend the
amendments of the Lords, who, he contended, so far from
having devised crafty measures for sinister purposes, had
followed the analogies of already approved enactments—
enactments sonic of them the offspring of the noble lord
hiinself, whose avowed jealousy, however, now prevented his
'recognising even his own bantlings.
The question that the house'do consider the Lords' amend-
ments was then put and agreed to.
An amendment was proposed by Mr. BALL, and agreed to
without a division, to the effect that persons seeking to be
placed upon the roll as freemen, should establish their claim
before a person appointed by the lord lieutenant for that
purpose.
Lord JOHN Russeee proposed an amendment for em-
, Powerine, the Lord Lieutenant to make alterations in the
limits orboroughs.
Sir R. PEEL objected, as the clauses were framed on the
recommendation of the government commissioners. Atter
sbme discussion the house divided—For the amendment, 111;
Against it, 103; Majority, 8.
On the 13th clause
Lord J. RUSSELL proposed an amendment for estimating
the franchise by the rated value, with the addition of one-

fourth, as explained in his speech. •
Sir IL PEEL opposed the amendment, and a discussion of
some length ensued. The house divided, when the numbers
were—For the Lords' amendment, 154; Against it, 169;
Majority against the amendment, 15.
The words proposed to be substituted by Lord J. RUSSELL
were then ordered to be inserted in the la.

On the question that the words " or other local cases" be
omitted,
The house divided, when there appeared—For rejecting the
words inserted by the Lords, 162 ;—Against their rejection
144; Majority, 18.
On the question that the house do agree to the amendment
of the lords, whereby that proviso was struck out which
directed that all tax-collectors should open accounts with the
Bank of Ireland, in order to admit of electors paying their
taxes there at any time within the prescribed period which
might prove convenient.
The house divided—Ayes, 157; Noes, 137 ; Majority in
favour of rejecting the Lords' amendment, '2O.
The Lord's amendments; up to clause 49, were agreed to
with some verbal alterations.

Several amendments to the clause referring to compensa-
tion of officers, town clerks, &c., were agreed to.
• • On the motion of Lord J. ItussEt.r., the further considera-
tion of the Lord's amendments was postponed until the fol-
lowing day.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at a quarter past one.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-FRIDAY
'NISH TITHES BILL.

After the presentation of a few petitions, Lord 'Aim,
BOURNE moved that the Tithe (Ireland) Bill should be com-
mitted. His lordship's speech was short and unimportant.
He was answered by Lord BitouGuAm, who objected to the

measure, in a very long and elaborate speech. It seemed,"
said his lordship, "as if they had been obliged to throw the
appropriation principle overboard to lighten the bill, in order
to effect its passage through the house. It was like some
animal; when pressed by the hunters in the chase, emascu-
lated itself—(laughter)—for the purpose of effecting its
escape, and threw in the face of its pursuers that in which
its whole vigour consisted, for the purpose of stopping them;
and thus being allowed to escape. So the pursuers opposite
—(laughter)—in this Niece of the bill—when they would be
satisfied with nothing short of the emasculation df the bill—
when nothing could satisfy them except that the appropria-
tion principle should be ruinously and ruthlessly cut out,
compelled the noble Viscount to have recourse to that opera-
tion—(great laughter)—he meant on his measures—(conti-
nued laughter)—and it was now reduced to so woeful a
plight, and presented to his contemplation so wretched a
figure, that he would infinitely rather that the measure had
expired altogether; for he would rather that it should have
died by their lordship's natural hands than by the less natu-
ral hands of its parents. Their lordships had been perfectly
consistent throughout the whole business; but the consist-
ency of those Who had deprived the measure of its whole vi-
gour was that which he had scarcely expected."
Lord FITZGErtik LD, in a well-digested and perspicuous
speech, explained the real character of the kill; he did not
oppose it generally, but recommended its adoption with the
exclusion of the clauses relating to the opening of composi-
ions already made under the faith of an act of parliament;

n lieu of which clauses he afterwards moved the insertion o

"the clauses which had been on two fonner occasions pro-
posed in place of the clauses to which he had referred as
having before been expunged by their lordships." .
After further speeches froin•Lords WICKLOW, 1M A N SPIEL!),
the Bishop of DERRY, Lord LANSDOWNE, and Lord MEL-
uotiNE, the house went into committed, when Lord FITZ-
GERALD moved and carried the omission of clauses 13 to 25
inclusive. The majority was very considerable, being 77
to :38.
Lord FITZGERALD then moved the substitution of a clause
"allowing the period of six weeks for the appeal." On, the
suggestion of Lord MELBOURNE. the period fur allowing the
appeal was extended to the Ist of October. The clause was
then inserted.

Lord FITZGERALD next moved the insertion of a second
clause, empowering parties complaining of tithe cotnmuta-
tion to apply to the Lord Lieutenant in Council for the ap-
pointment of one or two persons to revise it. The clause
slightly amended at the suggestion of the Marquis of DOWN-
SHIRE, was agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the bill, with the preamble and
title, have been agreed to, the House resumed, and the report
Was ordered to be received to-morrow, it being understood

that the amendments should be discussed on the third
reading.
• Several bills on the table were advanced a stay, and their
lordships adjourned at half-past eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRIDAY

On the order of the day being read for the Committee on
he Pensions
. . .

Sir R. PEEL brought under the notice of the house the
meritorious conduct of the commissioners of police, to which
ample testimony was rendered from Lord John Russell, and
every part of the house.
Mr Humu then moved'that the bill be taken into con-
sideration that day three months.
After some expression of surprise from Mr. Rice, and a
long speech from Mr. Harvey, the House went into Com-
mittee on the bill.

On the first clause granting £135,000 for the annual pay-
ment of pensions.
Mr. HuME asked whether the pensions granted during the
reign of the Queen would be binding on the present Sovereign
only.
Mr. RICE said, that the civil list of her Majesty had been
wholly apart and distinct from the list of pensions. That was
the recommendation of the Civil List Committee, and that
was the principle on which the late committee had proceeded.
In respect of pensions granted by her Majesty, he could tell
the Hon. Member, that in case of a certain melancholy event,
to which he would not more particularly allude, they would
again come under consideration, But those pensions to which
the present bill referred had no connexion with the life of her
Majesty in any possible respect
The several clauses of the hill were agreed to, the house
resumed, and the report was 'ordered to be brought up on
Monday.