The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1847-06-29 00:00:00

ATTEMPT TO EXCLUDE THE PRESS.

Mr. THOMPSON asked the Chairman if that was a finan-
cial statement which he was then making ?
The CHAIRMAN was going to make such observations
as would be required in illustration of the statements
which it would be his duty to make.
Mr. ThomPsoN.--But if you are going into a'financial
statement I beg you to observe that the reporters are tak-
ing notes.
The CHAIRMAN stated that his object was to go into
the whole matter as regarded the Commissioners, and the
passing of the new bills which were then before Parlia-
ment, and in doing so, he must more or less touch upon
the financial affairs of the board.

Mr. THOMPSON asked if it was not then the. duty of the
Chairman to see the resolutions of the board carried out,
and referred him to a resolution passed about a fortnight
ago, by which reporters were prohibited from being pre-
sent when financial matters were under discussion.

The CHAIRMAN in reply stated, that if the statement
which he had to make had reference only to, financial
matters, he would not feel himself justified in entering
upon it in the presence of the reporters ; but as, it was a
matter which concerned the public, and in which- a great
public interest'was involved, he was willing that the whole
of the facts should go before the public. Besides,. he did
not think that the resolution referred to bore directly on
such a statement as he had to make. .

Mr. LAIRD read the resolution in question, and directed
the Chairman's attention to the fact, that he was the
seconder of the resolution himself, and contended that, in
the presence of reporters, they could not go on with the
present business, without a breach of that resolution.
After a few words from the Chairman and Mr. Fox,
Mr. BENTHAM 'said, that if the resolution went to ex-
clude reporters when any allusion was made to financial
affairs, the resolution was a great fallacy, for he defied
them to hold any meeting without having some dis-
cussion on financial matters. He understood the reso-
lution would apply to. such time as they would be en-
gaged in the consideration of matters which were purely
financial ; but that it was intended to exclude reporters
when any or every statement involving some of the
financial affairs of the township were mooted he never
believed.

Considerable discussion then ensued, in which almost
every member present took a part, as to whether the re-
porters for the press should be allowed to remain while
Mr. Mallaby was making his statement to the board ; and
several motions for their exclusion having been put to
the board and lost,
Mr. MALLABY proceeded to say that he was sorry thiti
any nervous apprehension had been entertained, and that
his statement should havegiven rise to so much discussion
—discussion which had done no good, but merely prolong
their sitting. However, he hoped that they were not yet
tired ; but that they would give some attention to what
he was about to say. He was merely adverting to a re-
mark made at a former meeting, as to what was the
acknowledged state in which they were. A committee
had been recently appointed for the purpose of watching
the progress of the two-bills now in Parliament, as well•
as to ascertain wbeth"r or not measures could be adopted
to redeem them om the unfortunate
they were then situated.
Mr. Wm. LAIRD.—That resolution touched upon no-
thing but the two bills.
Mr. MALLABY.—It is exceedingly odd that Mr. Laird
would continually betray that kind of foolish apprehension
of financial affairs. He may no doubt feel that allusions
to this topic may be calculated to do others, who are not
commissioners, harm ; but. he (Mr. Mallaby) did not want
to do or say anything calculated to damage any party—
whether they were commissioners or not. He only wished
to open the eyes of the commissioners, in order that they
might arrive, after calm .consideration of the question, at
a just conclusion as to-the best means which they could
adopt for their own and•the township's welfare. An.d.in
adverting to anything that might seem to have the appear-
ance of casting a reflection on other parties, he would
endeavour to do so in language as mild as he could. They
were aware of the position in, which they then were. They
were aware that it was necessary they should accomplish
something with the Crown and the bondholders, so that
they could obtain money to• enable them to go on with
their works ; and they were also aware that a resolution
had been come to which directed that application should
be made to one of the larger debtors of the trust, in the
hope that by compliance with that demand they would be
put in a position to sustain the works, and carry them on
till more co-operative relief could be obtained. They
were also aware, he supposed, that that application.totally
failed, and that that large debtor to the trust did not
respond to the call made upon him. As to what the mo-
tives and intentions were which guided this act he did not
pretend to say, but the effect was to place the Com-
missioners in a very, serious embarrassment. Re (Mr.
Mallaby) went to London, in company with Mr.. Potter,
and they were met there by Mr. Brownrigg ; and there
they also made certain applications to some of the large
bond holders of the trust, in the hope that in protection
of their interest, and for the redemption of the township,
they would have made further advances for the promotion
of the works. These gentlemen, however, refused that
application, although it was made in all frankness and
as
fairness. The effect of this refusal they were aware
be severely felt on.the 30th of the present month, y
all knew from the position of their affair*. the effect
of their non-compliance with the demands to be made on
them on the 30th of June. When in London he had, in
company with Messrs. Potter and Brownrigg, a very long
discussion with some of the officers of the crown, explain-
ing to them the state of their affairs, and the advantages
which they thought would result from the plans which
they proposed; and at the end of the conference with the
officers of the crown, they told them (the. commissioners)
that they should have the concurrence of the crown in
raising 1:50,000, and promised that if they failed else-
where, they would raise it for them.. Having ascer-
tained that, he made a communication to the effect to the
committee, to enable them .to obtain that which was
necessary, to go on with the works,. and to prevent a
stoppage.. But in a couple of days it turned out un-
fortunately, notwithstanding the interposition of the
crown officers, -the main source -from which the funds
were anticipated, that they had not the means of supply,
ing the amount required. Therefore, the crown was in
this position ; that willing to da all they could for us—
and what they promised they could only have done by
raising it on their property in Birkenhead, which they
were prepared to do—but owing to circumstances, they
were unable to effect this. They (the commissioners)
offered all the assurances in their power that the funds
would be applied for no other purposes whatever than the
carrying out of the outward float and works—which in
fact should be considered the great object of the works ;
and that during the whole time of their construction every
facility should be given, and all information conceded, to
the officers of the crown, relative to their progress, and
how the fund was applied. That fund would have
been cheerfully given by the crown if the doors
of the Exchequer fond commissioners had been
open. Then came the question that all advance of
money from the crown must come from the security for
that money which either they or the crown could offer.
From these observations they would see the vital import-
ance of the right of the Crown being kept inviolate ; and,
of course, it would be the interest of the Commissioners
and the bond-holders that the Crown should be confirmed
in their title. They .were aware that the first bill, that
which related to the new docks, had a clause in it after it
came from the Commons, in which the title was vested in
the Crown, of not only the property which had been
granted to the Commissioners, but the property which it
was necessary to have granted to them in order to legalize
the works to be made under the new bill; and it was in-

tended iiY Megovernment-to transfer that title to the
Dock Commissioners. So they might at once see that
unless the Crown had, a title they had none. Without the
title of the Crown be sustained the works which they had
been making without the authority of the first act of Par-
liament would be virtually useless, as any right which
they might receive, without it came from the Crown,
under the present circumstances would be receiving a
right to nothing. In the House of Lords, however, that
bill was met by an opposition from several parties for the
purpose of denying the right of both the Crown and the
Commissioners to the land on which these works have
been erected, the effect of which would be to annul all
that they had done. The Dock Warehouse Company,
the Corporation of Liverpool, and Mr. Price were all that
appeared and cooperated in endeavouring to oppose the
Birkenhead Commissioners establishing that which was to
place the title to the whole of the ground in the crown:
The result of this opposition will be. that if they succeed

the commissioners will not have one tittle of right to the
very dock they are now proposing by act of parliament to
establish. Under these circumstances, it was quite obvi-
ous that to them it was of the utmost importance, as well
as to the crown, that the question touching the title of all
this property should be as speedily as possible determined ;
for it was quite clear that until that question should be de-
termined,—and as Mr. Potter, who acted in conjunction
with himself, said—it was necessary for the sake of
the Commissioners, the bond holders, aird the public, if
even they had the power to do so, not to lay out one
farthing on these works until the question had been de-
termined. His own conviction was, that the bills
which they, together with the crown. sought to esta-
blish would be successful, and the opposition to the
bill would turn out to be mere moonshine. After
some further observations, Mr. Mallaby said, that
on Saturday last he told Mr. Potter that the proper
method to meet this unreasonable opposition would be to
withdraw both the bills until after the question of title
had been settled. The first bill was the one, the passing
of which he was anxious about, as to the second he did
not lay much stress upon it, as he did not believe that it
would be of any avail. He was glad however, to see that
the Crown had consented to strike out the clause which
applied £23,600 to the walling in of the south side of
Wallasey Pool, and this sum the Crown proposed to allow I
the Commissioners if they could not get some of the
materials from the source from which it was anticipated
to be got. He was so anxious to have the first bill passed,
that he proposed to the opposing parties that be would
take all the discussion on the motionior the second bill.
If that had been conceded by them, the pressing necessity
which now was forcing itself upon them would not have oc-
curred—nor would they be compelled just at present to
close the docks. He did not know of any resource
which they had now left except one ; and that was
to endeavour to get the bill passed by a pledge given
by the Commissioners to the Crown that the works
would not be used, and, for the protection of the
bond holders, that no new works will be gone on
with until the title of the Commissioners shall be satis-
factorily determined on. He thought that such a course
might induce the officers of the crown to exert themselves
in getting the question settled, and it might induce those
parties now in opposition to awaken to a sense of their
condition, and toa sense of their interest, and thereby.
induce them to co-operate with the Commissioners in
their endeavour to settle the question. By this course
they would be in a position, without going into Parlia-
,rnent again, of having their works confirmed as soon
as they could get the title for them settled. He
thought they should induce the crown, if possible, to get
the bill passed with these qualifications in it, that the
works shall not be advanced until the title of the Com-
missioners was fully established. As a matter of pru-
dence they should adopt the course which he had just
suggested. His reason for suggesting this course was—
of course he was obliged tO state it in order, to show what
advantage would accrue from it—if it should happen that
in the crown the right of title would not eventually be
placed,. they would be in a- position to act independent
of them; and, should any other person be entitled to
the grant, they might be able to induce them to go with
them ; so that, in any event, whether the crown would be
vested with the title or not, they could get their works
confirmed. He contended that, if they were obliged to
pay for the area of the site of the works, and the area of
the amount of frontage which would be required, it would
be the most insane act which ccnld be committed by any
body of men to go on with works which could only be
regarded—in that event—as a mad speculation. But if
they could get the act passed under the pledge stated'; it
would be the salvation of the works. The proposal,
therefore, which he would submit would be to enter into
a resolution, making the proposal to the crown to which
he had alluded, and which should be put from that board
in the shape of a formal resolution After some further
observations, Mr. Mallaby concluded by propo?ing•the
following resolution :—" That her Majesty's Commissioners
of Woods and Forests be applied to for the assent of the
crown to the new dock bills, upon the distinct pledge that
this Trust will not expend further sums of money on their
works, or use tishr docks or works until the title of the
Commissioners be ascertained ; and they will proceed to '
recover the money due to them from all debtors, and take
immediate steps to ascertain and settle the title of all
claimants."

Mr. PaimAnDtasked if they were obliged to give up
all the works immediately?
The CHAIRMAN:—Yes : you have no property in them :
they are not your docks until the title is vested in you. I
should have mentioned that there is a clause in the new
bill by which you are prevented from the level
more than 13 feet: I do not, however, advise you to
make any application at present to the Crown for its re-
moval, as that is more a matter for the Commissioners
than the Crown.

Mr. PIM asked the Chairman if the question of title
would be settled in,Parliament, or by arvaction at law ?
The CHAIRMAN.—Of course it must.be by an action
at law.
Considerable discussion here arose as to whether it
would be judicious to give such a pledge( to the Crown as
that proposed by Mr. Mallaby, without the Government
having first asked for such a pledge.
Mr. Thompson, Mr. Laird, and Mr.- Bryans, took a
lively part in this debate, the former gentleman having
proposed an amendment to the original motion, which
was negatived on a division.

Mr. C. BENTHMa seconded the resolution of the chair-
man ; after which,

Mr. WM. LAIRD,;-rose to reply. He said he thought
the discussion regarding the admissibility of ropowtors
during the consideration of financial matters as being pro-
ductive of much good. The committee to which the
cuatrinc“. ufrilutuccu, 11c ,vuzu.
chairman, for no purpose but that of watching the pro-
gress of the two hills through parliament ; and in con-
junction with the affairs of this committee, he thought it
exceedingly uncourteous that Mr. Potter should absent
himself from that meeting ; and equally so for the
committee to neglect reporting -progress to the board.
It appeared that two of the large bond-holders in London
had been seen, and they had refused to -advance any more
money on the works,.-and after that the committee saw
the officers of the crown, who, according to their state-
ment, were most anxious to assist the commissioners with
the loan of £50,000, but they were unable to do
so. Now, it appeared to him to be- rather strange
that the officers of the crown should. not have known
this at first, and, *not have held out the hope that
they would give assistance when they- had it not in their
power to do so. As to a pledge, he did not think that
any stronger pledge could be given to the crown than the
desire evinced by the old Commissioners to carry out the
works as fast as-.possible. He did not believe that the
Corporation of Liverpool could lay claim, to any part of
the property in. question. He thought that Mr. Price
was the only person who could make any claim if the
Crown was not fully entitled to be put in possession of
the title. He thought the Commissioners should go on
with the Works, because he conceived they would have
no difficulty in. getting their claim established. He knew
that such parties as occupied the frontage of the works
would not put forward any claims, as Mr. Potter had him-
self offered long ago to waive all claim, to Mr. Lloyd, the
solicitor to the Commissioners. He did not think that
Lord Morpeth would put himself in such an invidious
position as to allow the docks which he had taken so
much pains with to fail for want of title. He thought it
was wrong in the Chairman to assume that the frontagers
of Wallasey Pool were against the Commissionera-
in their efforts. The fact was- that they were desirous
of seeing some trade brought to their own banks
..
and so soon as that was effected; hey might rely on_. haNing
their co-operation. It was a great absurdity for the chair-.
man to insinuate that the Birkenhead Dock Commis-
sioners' and the Dock Warehouse Company's interests
were notidentical. He was opposed to the pledge pro-
posed by the chairman; far .what had the crown to do,
with them ? They were there as trustees of the land-
holders' money, and he would ask what had the land-
holders to do with the crown ? They had every right to
spend, their money to the best advantage for the land-.
holders ; but he could not conceive why they were to con-
sult the crown, as to the method that they should adopt
in doing so. If they approved of the resolution of the
chairman, it would be calculated to destroy every interest
in Birkenhead. Mr. Laird concluded by moving an
amendment to the effect that no-such pledge as that pro-
posed be given to the crown without the consent and con-
currence of Mr. Goldsmid, Mr. Bailey, and Mr. Upton,
the principal bondholders.
The amendment was lost, however, on a division, and
the original motion was carried by a large majority.

DANGEROUS. STATE OF THE DOCKS•
Mr. WATSON then, called the attention of the board to
the dangerous state of the fronts of the docks, and sug-
gested that chains should be placed round them for the
protection of pedestrians.
The matter was referred, after which, the board ad-
journed.

THE FAIR. AT BIRKENHEAD.—We are very glad to
perceive that- the coming fair is likely, to be one of the
best that has yet taken place. We have it upon very good
authority, that the attendance of farmers will be large,
and we should judge that they could not take their goods
to a better market. We should recommend to the Ches-
ter and Birkenhead Railway Company, the despatch of a
cheap train on Saturday, (the day, on which the fair takes
place), as we are sure that such a measure would be
a great convenience to the multitude of Cheshire farmers
who will visit Birkenhead, and they would be amply re-
imbursed for this liberal and accommodating spirit. We
shall present to our readers in our next an account of the•
fair, and the prices of the different produce.
MANSLAUGHTER.—An inquisition was yesterday held
before Mr. Curry, on view of the body of William Wal-
lace Hall, aged 41. Ou the night of the 12th instant,
deceased and some other men were drinking in Mr. Nor-
vall's vaults, in Lime-street, when a dispute arose be-
tween him and one named William Fouchard, when the
latter struck him a blow with his fist, which knocked him
down on the floor, where he lay until he was picked up
by the police. The blow took effect under the chin.
Fouchard went away, but was pursued and soon afterwards
apprehended by one of the detective police. Fouchard
was heard to advise the deceased to go home, otherwise it
would cost him five shillings if a policeman got hold of
him. The same witness said that deceased then struck
Fouchard, who returned the blow. Deceased fell and
struck his head against the floor. He was taken to the
Infirmary, and came out on Tuesday evening last. When
he got home, he immediately took to his bed, complaining
of his head. A medical man was called in on Thursday,
but he died early on the morning of the following day.—
Mr. Garthside described the injuries to the head, which
were the cause of death and the result of external vio-
lence. Fouchard admitted to one of the witnesses, that
he. had struck a blow at deceased. The coroner summed
up and explained the law, and the jury returned a verdict
of " Manslaughter against William Fouchard."—The
witnesses were bound over to appear against the accused,
for the apprehension of whom the coroner issued his
warrant;

Jnne t9,1841‘

LATEST INTELLIGENCE.
(BY EXPRESS.)

LONDON CORN MARKET.-YESTERDAY.

Abundant arrivals of foreign grain, and a favourable change
in the weather, completely paralNsed the trade to-day. Many
of the vessels so long detained by adverse winds from the
Mediterranean have come to hand, bringing a great quantity'
of inferior wheat suitable only for the continental markets.
The majority of holders do not press sales, and, although we
must note the following decline, there were several who would
not yield to a like reduction, looking for an adequate demand
so soon as prices are more settled. English wheat Hs., foreign
ss. to 65., barrel flour 45., sack flour 55., Indian corn, barley,
and beans 3s. to 45., malt, peas, and oats 25., and at this de-
cline only a limited business transacted.