The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-12-03 00:00:00

THE WEST INDIA MAIL STATION.

We have recently called the attention of our fellow-towns-
men to the superior claims of our port, as the British station
of the West India mail ships, (14 in number,) over those of
Southampton. We expressed our surprise and reprehension
that those claims, so far from having been urged upon go-
vernment by our late Council (and, we may add, by our mer-
cantile community generally) in a manner commensurate with
the importance of the object to be attained, had been coldly
and imperfectly advanced, if not altogether overlooked ;—we
furnished data derived from the report of the proceedings of
the parliamentary committee in proof of the fact that, from
its central position as regards the home mails of England,
Scotland. and Ireland, and the manufacturing districts in
each, it was decidedly the most eligible point of departure
and arrival of any that had been suggested ;—and we ex-
pressed a hope that the present corporate body would exert
themselves to redeem the past by an energetic representation
to the proper quarter—leaving the nautical point of the ques-
tion for future consideration and remark. To that point we
shall now more particularly addrcss ourselves. And we may
premise that, though the inertness and apparent apathy of
Liverpool on the one hand, and the activity, generalship, and
undue influence (of which more anon) of Southampton on
the other, has induced the government to fix, temporarily, we
trust, upon that port as the exclusive station,—and though,
from obvious causes, months, or it may be years, may elapse
before we can so far justify our position as to effect a change
in the determination of government in our behalf, we by no
means despair of a favourable result, if energetic measures
be adopted by our local authorities, and others immediately
interested to lay the subject fully and fairly before parliament.
All we can hope to do is to hasten that desirable change; for
we feel assured that experience will effect it, even should our
townsmen remain passive spectators of the working of the mails
from the station at present assigned to them. We may add (in
resuming the subject) that it is our highest ambition especialiy
to promote the interests of our own port, and we willingly
allow a like privilege, in the exercise of an honourable com-
petition to our fellow-subjects of Southampton or elsewhere ;
but we urge no undue preference—no exclusive boon apart
from the general interests of the kingdom ; and if we fail,
ere we take leave of the subject, to prove on the broad prin-
ciples of general good, that this is the more eligible port, we
shall be contented to relinquish all the local advantages that
may accrue from its ultimate selection. It may, perhaps, be
said that we are premature in at present agitating the ques-
tion, inasmuch as it cannot be immediately entertained in the
quarter from which the final decision must emanate. Our
reply is that it is never too soon to rectify an error that mili-
tates against general interests ; and that it were well, by
ample and dispassionate discussion, during the calm of the
recess, to ripen the public mind on the subject, so that on
the opening of our national councils, under new and, we
trust, happier auspices than have influenced their delibera-
tions for many years past, they may be prepared to strengthen
the hands of our representaaives, and enable them to urge
with better effect the propriety of a speedy revision and
amendment of the decision at which, in our thinking, they
have unhappily too hastily arrived.
A brief reference to the proceedings of the government on
the question under review may serve to elucidate its bearings,
and justify the views we have adopted. In the first instance,
a committee—Rear-Admiral Sir J. A. Gordon, chairman—
was appointed by the Lords of the Admiralty to inquire into
the comparative advantages afforded by different ports " in
the Channel" for the West India mail service. It appears
that from the first it was contemplated that "the port" (cer-
tainly without due consideration) should be in the British
Channel, and as the committee was entirely composed of
officers of the navy, most of whom had long been stationed
in that quarter, and consequently known in and attached to
that locality, and who knew little of Liverpool, which is
rarely visited by men of war, it is not to lie wondered at that
they s!lould entertain a preference to a port in that quarter.
It appears, however, that while the enquiry was pending, the
Admiralty, in consequence of memorials received from the
respective ports of Bristol, Penzance, and other ports, not
including Liverpool, (which remained inert on the subject,)
directed evidence to be taken of their respective eligibility,
though they were not on the south but the western coast of
the island. Bristol, in particular, presented a very strong
memorial, but the mass of the evidence respecting it as a
mail packet station, is, we consider, with all due deference,
much less favourable than that (brief as it was) afterwards
adduced in behalf of Liverpool,—while, at the same time,
much of the general testimony is clearly in favour of a
" western" port as best suited to despatch. The Admi-
ralty committee, however, which acted from the 3d of
June, 1810, to the 16th of July in the same year, after
visiting most of' the competing ports in the south, and re-,
ceiving deputations and evidence from numerous parties
interested, did not, it appears, recommend any particular
harbour, but handed rn several reports embodying that evi-
dence, the final decision being left to Parliament itself. The
government commissioners had previously, on the part of
the public, entered into a contract with the West India Royal
Mail Company—that is, on the 20th of March of that year—

for the providing of at least 14 good and substantial steam
vessels for the service, also four sailing vessels, of 100 tons
burthen each. The contract specifies, that one of such
steam-vessels, after inspection and approval, shall twice a
month, " from such port in the British Channel as the said
Commissioners shall at any time or times, or from time to
time, signify, in writing, to the contractors," put to sea with
the mails, and proceed to the island of Barbadoes, thence to
Grenada, and thence successively to Santa Cruz, St. Thomas,
Nicola Mole (in St. Domingo,) Santiago (in Cuba,) Port
Royal, (Jamaica), Savannah-la-Mer (same Island,) deliver-
ing the mails _ and receiving others at each, and thence to

frevannah (Cuba,)Savannah:la-Mer' Port Royal (Jamaica),
Santiago de Cuba, Nicola Mole, and Samana (St. Domingo,)
and thence make her way home to such port in the British
Channel as the commissioners may direct. The company
are also required to alter arid vary this route from time to
time. And for the due performance of such service a sum is

to be paid by the government of £240,000 per annum, in
quarterly payments; the contract to commence on the 31st
of December, 1841, and to continue in force for ten years,
and to continue thereafter unless twelve months' notice be
given by either party to the other.

Such'is the substance of the contract [entered into (need
we repeat, precipitately !), between the government and the
company—the home port being distinctly specified to be,
" in the British Channel ", to the absolute exclusion of Li-
verpool, or any other port on the eastern coast of this min-
try,—unless, indeed—of which we do DM- ao.p.fr—a new ar-
rangement can be made under tho.anetion of parliament, and
.nricfactory ""ntractors. Here was the grand error on
the part of the commissioners, and they appear to have been
aware that they bad acted with indiscretion, and injustice, in
haring thus, perhaps unwittingly, narrowed tee field of com-
petition ;—for on the 27th April, of the present year, the
House of Commons appointed a select committee on the
selection of a port of arrival and departure, to whom the re-'
ports of the previous committee were referred—as also the
contract ; who immediately found that no selection of a par-
ticular port in the British Channel had been made by the
commissioners of the Admiralty, or notified to the steam
company, and were, moreover, empowered to receive evi-
dence both from Bristol, Liverpool, and several ports in Ire:

. .
land,—a circumstance clearly admitting the possibility, at
least, of their having formed a too hasty cwitract, and the
probability, if they found a change desirable, of having it an-
nulled in favour of a new arrangement. The parliamentary
_ _ _

committee consisted of Mr. FreShfield, Lord Dalmeny, Lord
Viscount Ingestrie, Captain Peelle!, Captain Duncombe,
Mr. Charles Wood, the Honourable Sir Thomas Cochrane,
Mr. Redington, Mr, Cresswell, Lord Worsley, Mr. Philip

Miles, Mr. Gibson Craig, Mr. De Horsey, Mr. Oswald, and.
Mr. Richard Hodgson,' to none of whom immediately have
we an objection to offer, though we cannot bnt consider it
extraordinary that neither of the members for Glasgow are
included in the list of members, who, it may be added, very
inadequately represent the great interests in West India
affairs of the great commercial and manufacturing interests
of the North of England, of Scotland generally, or of Ireland.
On looking cursorily through the evidence, we find, too, that
nearly the whole of the witnesses—nautical men, engineers,
and others---Lare connected with some one or other of the
ports in the British Channel, and solely interested in the
preference of a port in that part of the coast, while their
knowledge of this port, and its comparative advantages and
capabilities, (ifany they possess,) is either extremely limited,
or, from the exclusive nature of the examinations, remains
unelicited. Admitting, however, as we readily do, that the
establishment of this mail communication will be of immense
advantage to the country, if judiciously carried out—by ap-
proximating, as it were, Great Britain to her valuable de-
pendencies in the West, and consolidating their mutual
interests—it becomes a matter of national importance (par-
ticularly when the large expenditure involved is taken into
account) that that port should be selected which promises that
the greatest convenience and advantage to the mass of the
mercantile and general community mainly interested, as re-
gards the proprietary in those islands—and the comparative
advantages it presents, in safe and easy ingress—and in adap-
tation for the speedy repair of machinery ; and, finally, in
the cheap supply of fuel, the cost of which will, necessarily,

form a prominent item in the working of the line. In all
and every of theserespeets, we have yet to learn that the com-
paratively small town of Southamptom, is at all equal to our
own admirable port.
In the first place (though the subject seems to have been
scarcely touched upon by the committee), there can be, we
think, no doubt but that the mass of West India proprietors
are parties resident in the north of England and in Scotland.
Situated, too, in the immediate proximity of the great manu-
facturing districts with which, as well as with Scotland and
Ireland, it has speedy and daily intercourse by railways, ca-
nals, and other means, and from which the supplies for the
West India markets are mainly derived, it presents claims
within a circuit round it—claims of connexion—of much
greater magnitude than can be substantiated for a similar ea-

rent of country round Southampton, including even the me-
tropolis itself, whose mere convenience in the advantage of
five or six hours only in the postage of letters has apparently
held an undue preponderence in the minds of the commit-
tee. If packages of fine manfactured goods are to be carried
by the West India steamers in addition to their coals in or-
der to meet a market (which, though not mentioned, is, we

think, probable), these would be mainly supplied by the 'ur-

rounding distriCts, and from thesisterWesCern port of Glas-

gow, from. Birmingham, from Yorkshire, or from Stafford-
shire. And as regards passengers (on whom the mail ships
must greatly depend for their profitable working), we will

venture to say that the aggregate number of individuals pro-
ceeding to the Antilles, and to the proximate shores of South
America, exceeds by ten times those proceeding from the
_ _

southern counties of England. If these, however, would
take advantage of the mails, they must by the present ar-
rangement.be subjected to the additional fatigue and heavy

expense of travelling nearly to the land's end. Many of
these will, therefore, as a matter of course, prefer a passage
by the sailing ships of this port and Glasgow, to the infinite
loss of the mail steam company, and the defeat, to a certain
extent, !of the objects of government in forwarding speedy
personal transit.
We now proceed to contrast its adaptations with those of
Liverpool in a nautical point of view.
And first, as regards the shortest distances from each port
respectively to Barbadoes, measured on a great circle, we have

. .., ,
Southampton 3,590 miles.
Liverpool
Being an advantage (if it may be so called) in favour of
Southampton of only 147 miles ; though the distance by mail
.

is upwards of 200 miles between the two ports. The follow-
ing particulars from the Hydrographer to the Admiralty, laid
before the committee, will show the respective distances to
be run from each port, the point of departure on the voyage
from Southampton being taken at the Lizard, and that from
Liverpool at Cape Clear

SOUTHAMPTON to Calshot Castle
Calshot to the Needles
Needles to the Start
Start to the Lizard.
Lizard to Barbadoes
LIVERPOOL to near the Skerries
Skerries to Tuskar
Tuskar to Cape Clear
Cape Clear to Barbadoes
The report of the committee makes a difference of only 47
miles of distance, but this evidently arises from a mistake in
the addition, and we are quite willing to allow the larger sum,
inasmuch as it makes but a trifling per centage of difference
on a voyage which—as not even a steamer can stear a direct

63
3,45-3,590

course in all weathers—may be considered a voyage little
short of 3,800 miles. The respective advantages of ingress
andi egress which the two ports present are now to be con-
sidered ; and here, we think, our port merits the preference.
It appears from the evidence of many of the witnesses that

Southampton is subject to thick fogs, which renders the pas-
sage of the Needles out or in extremely hazardous, and one
of them (Mr. Walker) states that no Cowes pilot can find
the Channel of Southampton Water in foggy weather, though
if found, it contains sufficient depth for the steamers. The
access to Liverpool on the other hand is unequivocally stated
by all the witnesses in behalf of the port to be superior, and
outward-bound vessels may be said to be clear of the land
when they pas Holyhead.

PUBLIC MEETING ON THE BIRTH OF THE
PRINCE OF WALES.

Yesterday, at twelve o'clock, in pursuance of a requisition
to the Mayor (to which he promptly acceded), a public meet-
ing of the inhabitants of this borough was held at the. Ses-
sions-house, " for the purpose of affording the loyal subjects
of her Majesty the Queen, in this town and neighbourhood,
an opportunity of expressin4 by addresses to her Majesty,
his Royal Highness Prince Albert, and her Royal Highness
the Duchess of Kent, their joy and congratulations on the
auspicious event of the birth of au heir to the throne of these
realms."
The Court-room, immediately on the opening of the doors,
was crowded in every part within the rails, by an assemblage
of the most respectable and influential inhabitants of the

town, without regard to polities, and the proceedings were
marked throughout by a feeling f loyalty and respect to the
institutions of the country befitting the occasion. Amongst
those present we noticed Sir Thomas Brancker, J. T. Alston,
Messrs. Alderman J. H. Turner, Thomas Bolton, Thomas
Thornely, M.P., H. Hornby, R. Duncan, Ashley, J.
Sheppard, William Potter, John Formby, Walmsley,
Joseph Hornby, Robertson Gladstone, T. Booth, Sandbach,
Alexander Smith, jtm., J. V. Yates, Bushby, Dr. Ralph,
George Grant, Lewin Mozley, and many others.
The Mayor (J. S. Leigh, Esq)., in taking the chair, opened
the proceedings in an appropriate address. It afforded him
the highest gratification to see such an assemblage of his
townsmen congregated on an occasion so auspicious. The
meeting had originated in many of those whom he saw
around him ; but had he not received the requisition, the
event, on which they had assembled, afforded sufficient and
ample grounds for him to call the meeting to afford an oppor-
tunity to the people of this great town, which formed unim-
portant portion of the empire, to express their feelings of
loyalty and attachment to the throne and the constitution,
under which they had enjoyed so much national prosperity.
They had to congratulate the town, and the people at large on
the birth of an infant prince, who would, in all probability,
sway the destinies of this great country. They had to pro-
pose addresses to her Majesty and to Prince Albert on the
happy event.. They also had to address her Majesty the
Queen Dowager (we understood him to imply), who had shut
pre-eminent lustre around the throne. He trusted that the
proceedings would be marked by those feelings of enthusi-
asm and unanimity which the occasion was so eminently
calculated to draw forth. As there were others present
much more competent than himself to dilate upon the sub-
ject, he should not occupy their time with further remark,
but request the town-clerk to read the requisition.
The TowN-cmtaK complied by reading the requisition,
and the numerous signatures thereto appended.
The Rev. JONATHAN BROOKS, who was received with
strong demonstrations of respect,) said he had great pleasure
in performing the office, which he had been requested to un-
dertake, of moving the first resolution. Had it required the
powers of oratory, or the gift of persuasion to do so, he
should shrink from the task as incompetent to do it justice ;
but when they met for a common purpose, on which, how-
ever much they differed on certain points, all parties unani-
mously conjoined, be felt that all difficulty was removed. The
resolution divided itself into two parts. First—they had to
acknowledge the goodness of Almighty God, in bestowing
upon her Majesty the blessing of a son, and thus fulfilling
the hopes of the nation ; and secondly to express their happy
congratulations to the mother on the event. He felt assured
that every one present would concur in expressing their gra-
titude to that Almighty Being, from whom all such blessings
were derived, and he was equally certain that they would
offer their heartfelt congratulations to her Majesty, who for-
got all the sufferings of a mother, after they had passed, in
her joy that a man was born into the world. For national
blessings., national thankfulness was due; and never had
they ocq. .11 to be more thankful than now, when a sovereign
bortrin ;;,,...country left them to glory in the name of Britons.
They h in truth, the more to be thankful for, when
they cot"' ered the great blessings of the constitution under
which y lived. it had been well said by a Roman
histori. hat a succession of nobles alone would not benefit
a state, and that (as we understood him) a form of govern-
ment constituted on the principle of republicanism, could
not long endure. His prophecy had proved to be right; and
while some empires so regulated had fallen into decay, we
had here a government of king, lords, and commons, which
had lasted for ages. We ought to be thankful for a con-
stitution to which, under God, they were imiebted for all the
advantages they enjoyed. And surely they would be doubly
thankful for an event which would perpetuate its advantages.
They were the more called upon to give expression to their
gratitude and loyalty when they reflected that our present
sovereign was a young, virtuous, and interesting female, who
had already shown that she would act up to the principles and
spirit of that constitution, and in whose health, as well as in
the birth of a prince, they felt deeply interested. He looked
around him in that assembly for an octogenarian, but believed
none were there. He did so with a view to remind them that
this was the eightieth year since so happy an event as that which
had drawn them together had occurred. None of those present
ever before offered their congratulations on the birth of an
heir-apparent, who was a Prince of Wales, and he sincerely
hoped none of them would see a recurrence of such an occa-
sion. Half a century would roll over before their beloved
monarch would attain three-score years and ten—the scrip-
tural age of man. if she lived to that age, none of those
who heard him could witness such an event. The whole

circumstances under which they had met were such as could

not but lead them to unanimity. He felt assured that they
would pass the resolution, with an earnest wish and prayer
that her Majesty might long be spared to rule over them ;
that the Prince might grow up in virtue and in wisdom,
under her maternal guidance; and that when the time came
when she must pay that debt of nature; from which even
monarchs were not exempt, she would hand down to him the
sceptre of the realm, with its purity unsullied, its lustre un-
diminished, and its power undecayed. He could not better
conclude than in the words of the poet—
" Blessing and ever blessed be her rule ;
And, when old Time shall bring her to her end,
Goodness and she fill up one monument !"

(Much cheering.)
Mr. T. BOLTON said he had been requested to second the
resolution, which he had much pleasure in doing. That re-
solution had been so ably supported by the Rev. gentleman
who bad preceded him, that he had but to ern”'- Lw -^*`!"
concurrence, to hone than ---, messing might attend her
fromamaif,„,e), ncr intent son ; and that when she was taken
if,
us we should continue to enjoy that civil and religiiius
liberty with which we were more favoured by our govern-
ment than the people of any other country on the face of the
earth. (Applause.)
The MAYOR again read the motion, (which, with the
others, will be found in our advertising columns,) and being
put it was unanimously carried.

Sir T. BRA NCKER, who complained of a cold, moved the
second resolution, that a dutiful address be presented to her
Majesty, and that the following be adopted:—
" To TIIE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY.

" We your Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, Magis-
trates, Clergy, Gentry, Bankers, Merchants, and other in-
habitants of Liverpool, in public meeting assembled, grate-
fully acknowledging the goodness of Almighty God in be-
stowing upon your Majesty and your Royal Consort the
blessing of a Son, and upon your faithful people an heir to
the throne of these realms, desire most respectfully to offer
to your Majesty our heartfelt congratulations on this most
auspicious event, and to express to your Majesty our joy and
thankfulness upon your Majesty's restoration to health.
" May every blessing attend the infant Prince ; may wis-
dom and virtue, health and strength, be largely bestowed
upon him. Instructed by the watchful solicitude of his
Royal parents, in all that is good and praiseworthy, and be-
fitting his high station, may he be a comfort to your Majesty
and your Royal Consort, and a bright example to this
nation. And, if in the course of events it should please
Divine Providence that the crown of these realms should
devolve upon him, may those national advantages of free-
dom, peace, and prosperity which your Majesty's subjects
enjoy under your mild and benignant sway be continued
under his, and may he long reign beloved as is your Majesty,
by the grateful millions of the British empire.
't That this day may be far distant we fervently pray, and
that your Majesty may long be spared to rule over a loyal,
devoted, and affectionate people."
Mr. CIIARLES TAYLEURE briefly seconded the resolu-
tion, which was put, and unanimously carried.
Mr. HUGH HORNBY, in a few words, moved the next re-
solution, that an address of congratulation as follows be pre-
sented to His Royal Highness Prince Albert :
"To His ROYAL HIGHNESS PRINCE ALBERT.
" We, the undersigned Magistrates, Clergy, Gentry, Bank-
ers, Merchants, and other Inhabitants of Liverpool, in pub-
lic meeting assembled, beg respectfully to approach your
Royal Highness, and to offer to you our sincere congratula-
tions on the birth of a son, the heir to the throne of these
realms. This auspicious event fulfilling as it does the hopes
of her Majesty's subjects, must be to your Royal Highness
a source of unmingled happiness ; and the nation, fondly
anticipating the future, recognises in your Royal Highness
the illustrious progenitor of a race of Sovereigns who in
after ages may sway the sceptre of this mighty empire.
May the royal infant be blessed by every endowment of
wisdom and virtue, be a comfort to her Majesty and your
Royal Highness, and a bright example to the people of these
realms.

" We offer up our fervent prayers for the health and
happiness of your Royal Highness, and that you may long
live beloved and esteemed, as your Royal Highness de-
servedly is, by all classes of her Majesty's faithful and
affectionate subjects."

Mr. HogNBY congratulated those present on the unani-
mous character of the meeting. The event which had called
them together was calculated not only to gratify the feelings of
the Royal Parent of the infant Prince, but to confer a bless-
ing on the nation at large, inasmuch as it would strengthen
and consolidate our institutions. It was peculiarly welcome
at a time when clouds were lowering upon the prosperity of
the country. There were some parties in Europe who re-
garded the dissentions in politics that had recently been ex-
hibited in this country as a prelude to her downfall; but he
thought they were well answered by such demonstrations as
the present of attachment to our Sovereign, and devotion to
the institutions of our common country.
Mr. J. T. ALSTON seconded the resolution, and it was
carried unanimously.

Mr. WM. BROWN said it was highly gratifying to see a
meeting divested of all party feeling, and assembled to con.
gratulate the Queen and other members of the Royal Family

on the birth of Prince of Wales, and begged to move that
an address be presented to the Duchess of Kent, and that

the following be adopted :
" To HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUCTLESS OF KENT

" We, the undersigned Magistrates, Clergy, Gentry,
Bankers, Merchants, and other inhabitants, in public meet-
ing assembled, beg to approach your Royal Highness, and
offer to you our sincere congratulations on the birth of the

Prince, the heir to the throne of these realms Gratifying as
is this event to all classes of Her Majesty's subjects, it must
be to your Royal Highness a source of the purest happiness.
" The parental care bestowed by your Royal Highness
upon our gracious Sovereign in the days of her infancy and
youth, and the benefits thereby conferred upon this nation,
will long be cherished by her grateful subjects ; and we fer-
vently pray that the infant Prince may possess in an equal
measure all those virtuous dispositions so_fondly nurtured,

by your Royal Highness, in our gracious Sovereign, that he
may be a comfort to his royal parents, a distinguished orna-

meat of the royal line, and a blessing to the peopleOfthese

realms

" And we pray that your Royal Highness may long live
beloved and esteemed by all classes of Her Majesty's
subjects."
Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE begged leave most cordially
to second the resolution, which on being put was also unani-

mously carried.
Mr. W. POTTER said that the several resolutions having
been passed with the greatest unanimity, it only remained
for them to fix upon an individual to present them ; and he
trusted he should meet with the general concurrence of that

assembly in proposing that they should be entrusted to their
chief magistrate who presided that day. (Loud and pro-

_
longed applause.)
111 r. LEWIN AIozLEY, in seconding the resolution said,
that the addresses were such as would meet the full approval
of every one who possessed a British heart, and no one could
be more fitly selected to present them than the worthy gen-
tleman who so ably filled the chair, and who was moreover
a native of the town. He seconded the resolution with sin-

cere pleasure.
The MAYOR, after stating good humouredly that he felt
himself placed in a very awkward predicament on the ac-

casion

The motion, which his modesty prevented him from point-
edly putting, was then carried by acclamation.
The MAYOR said that it was impossible for him to express
the gratitude he felt for the compliments paid and the honour
done to him. He had as yet exercised the functions of his
office too short a time to merit them ; but he might say, that
whatever errors of judgment he might hereafter be amena-
ble for, he should ever discharge his duties with the strictest
impartiality to all parties. (Applause.)

A tnotion was then agreed toz=inoved by Mr. G. GRANT,
and seconded by Mr. J. H. TURNER—that the addresses be
signed by the mayor, in behalf of the meeting.
The mayor then left the chair, when the thanks of the
meeting were voted to him.

Repeated and enthusiastic. cheers were then given in suc-
cession for the Queen, Prince Albert, and the Duchess of
Kent. and the meeting dispersed.

MEETING OF THE DOCK COMMITTEE

The committee held their weekly meeting yesterday. There
were present Messrs. Sands, (chairman,) Horsfall, Barclay,
Holt, Holmes, Smith, Molyneux, Evans, Chapman, Bulley,
Tobin, Aikin, Middleton, Moon, Chilton, Ripley, and Nicol.

ALLEGED DELAY IN THE WORKS.

The proceedings of the last meeting having been read, Mr.
EVANS said he would ask Mr. Hartley one or two questions,
in consequence of remarks having been made by a member
of that committee, with regard to the delay in the south
dock; also as to the Queen's Graving Dock; and also with
regard to one or two lines of sheds at the north end. He
wished to know what was the cause of the alleged delay, or
why the works had not been expedited as much as possible.

The SURVEYOR replied, that with regard to Brunswick
Dock there had been no delay whatever. So much depended
upon the state of the tides that the work could not go on
quicker. _

Mr. CHAPMAN observed that the work had been going on
for two or three years and was not completed 'yet.
The SURVEYOR described the present state of the work,
and showed that it was impossible to go'o►► quicker ; but he
spoke in so low a tone that we were unable to hear his words.
Mr. EVANS asked whether since the beginning there had
been any time lost?

The SuavEYoll said that no time had been lost, seeing
that a great variety of alterations had been made.
Mr. CHAPMAN.—The original plan has not been ad-
hered to?

The SURVEYOR.—NO.
Mr. CHAPMAN.—How long has the work been in hand ?
The SURVEYOR.—About two years.
Mr. CHAPMAN.—Suppose the original design to have been
kept to, and the work expedited for the purpose of opening,
what time would it have taken ?

The SURVEYOR.—Perhaps a few months less.
Mr. Evans inquired whether the alterations alluded to
had been made for the sake of amendment ?
The SURVEYOR replied in the affirmative. It was at first
intended to be a dry basin. As to the South Graving Dock
the engines were all ready, and a boiler would be put down
in about a fortnight. As to the sheds, there was nothing at
all to be done. Any body going to the place would certainly
.suppose the work was standing, but that was not the case :
all was ready to go on the moment a cargo of stone arrived,
which he expected in about a fortnight.
Some conversation followed with reference to a delay that
had taken place in the works at the sheds, and which the
Surveyor accounted fur by saying he did not understaad the
order to have passed the general committee. The SECRE-
TARY at the request of Mr. Evans, read the order alluded
to, which was dated the 13th May, and was to the effect that
the sheds at the east and south ends of Waterloo Dock be
proceeded with as early as might be convenient. Mr. EVANS
contended that the words " as early as may be convenient "
justified the surveyor. 'The committee seemed to be of the
same opinion, and after the Surveyor had undertakento make
a report of the number of yards of sheds he had erected since
May last, and also within the last twelve months, the con-
versation dropped.

GENERAL BUSINESS

Messrs. Davenport and Grindrod's_tender to erect two

cranes on the north quay of George's Dock was accepted.
The tender of Mr. Thomas Hague to erect the proposed
transit sheds west of Prince's Dock, being the lowest of
twelve sent in, was accepted.
The Sub-Committee for the department of the Marine
Surveyor reported that during the night of the 16th Novem-
ber, the Bell beacon had been run foul of by the ship Re-
porter (as we understood), and damaged. A letter was or-
dered to be written to the owners of the vessel, holding them
responsible for the damage.
The widow of a man belonging to the Point of Ayr life-
boat, who had been unfortunately drowned whilst going to a
wreck, was presented with £lO.
The duplicate light-ship Meteor was reported to be now
moored in the Sloyne ready for active service.
Applications from Messrs. Robert Clarke and Son, and
Messrs. W. B. Jones and Co., shipbuilders, stating that
their establishments must be abandoned in consequence of
the intended dock improvements, and pointing out other
plots suitable for their purpose which they requested to
have, were referred to the Surveyor.
The CHAIRMAN stated that a memorial from the Man-
chester potatoe merchants, forwarded through Mr. Locke,
had been referred to Mr. Askew, who was making some ar-
rangements for their accommodation.
A letter was ordered to be written to the Liverpool and
Manchester Railway Company, informing them that the rail-
way near Queen's Dock had not yet been removed, and call-
ing upon them to fulfil their engagement.
On the application of the agent of the Dundalk Steam-
packet Company, the end of the shed at the north-east end
of Clarence Basin was ordered to be boarded up.

THE NEW DOCK PLANS.
The CHAIRMAN said that the general business being con-
chided, probably the committee would call in the harbour
masters and dock masters for examination upon the several
dock plans.
Mr. CHAPMAN enquired whether othe'rnautical men would
be allowed to give their opinion ?
The CHAIRMAN said certainly, and not only nautical men,
but it was the pleasure of the committee that some civil en-
gineer should be examined.
Mr. TOBIN thought that question had never come regu-
larly before the committee. He had heard it stated at the

last meeting, that the committee had determined to take the
opinion of an eminent engineer, but it was the very first time
he had heard of any such determination.

The CHAIRMAN said, that perhaps he might have gone a
little too far in saying so ; but he took it for granted that the
committee would not only examine their own buc
go to Lood,u, That he knew was the wish
uc several gentlemen upon
.the committee, Mr. Horsfall
among the number, and therefore he took the liberty of say-
ing so. Whether he said the committee had so determined he
did nst remember.

Mr. AIKEN was glad that Mr. Tobin had mentioned the
subject, because he felt considerable hesitation in saying that
there was a necessity of asking the opinions of engineers.
No fault was-found with Mr. Hartley's plans as regarded the
engineering, or the effect to be produced, or with the
strength and general security of the walls ; but it was urged
that the space of water and quay would not be equal to that
which was suggested out of doors. Upon that subject he
held that the parties to be examined, and parties in-
terested in the town, were quite as able to judge as
the best engineer in the country. In fact the question
became solely one of the facility of working vessels. On this
subject he could not imagine that au engineer unacquainted
with the locality and with the systems of trade could give the
committee any information. If, upon the other hand, they
were likely, by getting the opinions of eminent surveyors to
satisfy those out of doors, it would be well ; but he did not
see why they should do so at all, because, after all, fault was
not found with the engineering plan, or the arrangements for
working ships. He did not see how the opinion of able en-
gineers wouldaffect the question between the associatedbodies
and the committee.

The CHAIRMAN explained what he had said with reference
to consulting engineers of eminence.
Mr. NICOL said he understood the chairman to have said
there was a very great disposition in the committee to consult
them.

The CHAIRMAN.—I did say so, and I think I was war-
ranted.
Mr. new. did not take exactly the same views of this
question as Mr. Aiken. When the discussion of this matter
first commenced, he was aware that the engineering part of
the work had been thoroughly examined before a committee
of the House of Commons, but he did not find that the gene-
ral plan of the dock had been made a subject of enquiry in
any other form. It did not appear that other engineers be-
sides Mr. Hartley had been consulted as to the general plan
and usefulness of the dock itself. But Mr. Aiken said the
committee were as good judges of the matter as any able
engineer. He agreed very much with Mr. Aiken in that,
but the committee themselves were much divided upon it,
and si► many associations having come forward and found
fan l' with the plans framed by Mr. Hartley, it must be sa-
tisfactory to Mr. Hartley and to the committee to have other
opinions.
Mr. HoitsFALL said his view was to obtain the very best
advice that the country afforded. As Mr. Chapman had ob-
served, if there was any error at all, it was in design, and it
was desirable, therefore, to have the best opinions upon the
design itself. It would be quite wrong if they did not take
the best advice they could obtain ; and he would suggest that
at least two engineers of the highest eminence be invited.

Mr. EvANsquite agreed with Mr. Aiken that the commit-
tee were better judges of the actual working of the several
plans than any engineer. He had nothing to apprehend from
the opinions of engineers except the well known feeling that
when you called them in, they were always excessively origi-
nal and anxious to interpolate something of their own that
might leave some mark of the necessity or utility of their
being employed. He had no apprehension of any thing else
than that; but in all likelihood the cdmmittee would call in
men who would not be actuated by that feeling. . _

Mr. TOBIN said it came to this—that by Mr. Gage's plan
they would be, fora long time, reducing theirdock room, whilst
by the present one, that of Mr. Hartley, they might have all
the facilities they required in five or six months he under-
stood.

Mr. CITAPMAN.—In five or six months—the new dock?

Mr. HORSFALL

--No, the Canning Dock

Mr. CHAT MAN said it was closed

Mr. ToniN begged pardon. As the docks were crowded,
if the committee could get those which were now closed com-
pleted, a great deal of time would be saved ; but if they agreed
to Mr. Gage's plans, they must submit to be without an ad-
ditional dock for at least five years.

Mr. CHAPMAN said, the first question was whether they
should confine themselves to the present site. It was quite
impossible for the committee to entertain the extended plans
of Mr. Gage ; and the fault of Mr. Hartley, if there was
any, was one of design. If the work had been solely one of
execution, he did not know any man in the country whom he
would trust sooner than Mr. Hartley ; but the question was
one of design, and in that he thought Mr. Hartley wrong.
The very entrances showed that. Mr. Chapman concluded
by urging upon the committee the necessity of calling in
engineers and men of nautical experience.
Mr. BuLLEY apprehended from what had passed on Mon-
day that the committee were pledged to call in assistance.
Mr. AIKIN said that no engineer or engineers, however emi-
nent, could enter at once into the wants and wishes of the pub-
lic, or into those points which were of the greatest advantage
to the trade of Liverpool. It was impossible for any engineer
coming strange to know how the trade was working, the
changes that hadtaken place, or those which might be expected.
When he .came down it would require a great deal of time,
and it would be a work of considerable difficulty, to impress
upon him the nature of the trade as it had been, and as it
was likely to be. Unless he knew the absolute routine of
trade he could not know the description of accommoda-
tion which was wanted. Mr. Aiken concluded some com-
ments upon Mr. Gage's plans, by observing that in theory`
and on paper they did seem very pretty, yet when their
practical working was really gone into, Mr. Hartley's plans
proved to be decidedly the best.
Mr. Nicol. said there was a good deal of force in what Ajr.
Aiken had said ; but he was of opinion that Mr. Walker, and
other engmeers, who had come down here upon public works,
would not make up their minds to any alteration or change
in Mr. Hartley's plans without obtaining all the evidence
they could upon the working of the docks.
Mr. HOASFALL remarked, that much of what Mr. Aiken
had said must be laid before the engineers. They must be
informed that warehouses were indispensable, and that they
must not lay before the committee any plan that would injure
them.

The CHAIRMAN suggested that it would be better, in the
examination of the witnesses, to have it clearly understood
that the preservation of the warehouses was essential, and
that they must give all their evidence with reference to that.
This suggestion, after a few observations from several
members, was adopted.
The CHAIRMAN having read a list of the Harbour and
Dock Masters in waiting to give their testimony, it was ar-
ranged that they should all be present at once.
Mr. RIPLEY inquired whether the committee were going
to confine themselves to the additional dock only, or the
general plan of Mr. Gage ?
The CHAIRMAN replied, the plan which comprised the
space of the parliamentary site.
Mr. .Tontrz supposed the horse shoe plan was intended for
fishing boats, for long vessels could not go up to the wharf.
Mr. tvANs.—And how can you work them at the ware.
houses ?

The CHAIRMAN said, the principle of the discussion was,
that the warehouses must be preserved.
Mr. AIKEN thought the officers should be examined with
reference to Mr. Gage's large plan, as that had been recom-
mended by a large portion of the associated bodies.
Mr. CHAPMAN said, that was not the question. If the
large plan was practicable, they must go to parliament for a
fresh act and to obtain more money,thereforethat was not the
question. The question was, the site for one or the other of
the plans for which they had an act.
Mr. AIKEN said, that was the very strongest reason that
could be adduced in his favour. The associated boidies had
adopted Mr. Gage's large plan, therefore if they got rid of
that they would be clearing so much of the way.
Mr. HOKSPALL asked the Surveyor how long it would
take to execute Mr. Gage'

Mr. HARTLEY replied that lie had not seen it.
Mr. HORSFALL said of course Mr. Hartley could not an-
swer the question if he had not seen the plan, but it was most
important, because it was said,." can you deprive the ship-
ping interest of accommodation for three, four, or five
years?"

The Harbour and Dock Masters being introduced,

The CHAIRMAN directed Mr. Hartley to look at Mr.
Gage's plan, and give the committee some idea of the time it
would take in its execution.

Mr. RIPLEY added, after the act of parliament had been
obtained, he understood that the Manchester Dock was
under lease for about 20 years.

Mr. AIKEN said the large plan went upon the principle of
doing away with the King's Dock, Salthouse Dock, two
Graving Docks, and the Manchester Dock. Would it not be
sufficient for the committee to say at once that they never
could contemplate a plan which involved the doing away
with of two of the most useful docks in the town?

The CHAIRMAN said it would take 12 or 15 years to get
rid of the Manchester Dock.

Mr. HOLT said the unexpired lease was for 14 years

Mr. TOBIN said the gentlemen who recommended Mr.
Gage's plans seemed to think nothing of expense or time. If
the Manchester dock could be bought only for its weight in
gold, they would not care about the expense.
Mr. ItipLrY remarked that the Manchester Dock be-
longed to the corporation.

. -
Mr. HARTLEY said he had examined the large plan, and it
was impossible far him to say in what time it would be exe-
cuted. At the south end it might be completed at three or
four different periods; and, when one part was completed,
another might be begun. It would, perhaps, take six or
eight years in the whole.

Mr. CHAPMAN repeated that they had no act of parliament
for it. The only thing for discussion now should be the
principle of the, future dock. Mr. Hartley had admitted that
the principle was right by the plan he had suggested some
years ago, but the committee had nothing to do with anything
but the parliamentary site.
Mr. EvANs said the committee had also to consult the
opinions of the mercantile associations. A majority of them
were in favour of Mr. Gage's plan, therefore the committee
were bound to give it some consideration and dispose of it
formally.

Mr. RIPLEY said Mr. Chapman had stated that Mr.
Hartley had admitted the principle and acted upon it ; but
in the new dock Mr. Hartley had entered upon another
principle and the committee had admitted it.
Mr. HARTLEY said he admitted the principle to be the
best for east and west docks.

Mr. RlPLEY.—Precisely so.
Mr. HARTLEY added that when be first came into office,
two docks like the Prince's Dock were about to be con-
structed. He was ordered to report on the plans, which he
did, and they were abandoned, and his own substituted.
Mr. HORSFALL said that was precisely so. The commit-
tee had approved of the plan, and it had been carried out as
far as practicable in the docks to the northward of the Prince's.
Mr. HARTLEY.—Yes, certainly,
The CHAIRMAN said some explanations bad been received
from Mr. Gage, which ought, perhaps to be now read.
The SECRETARY then read the following :
" Liierpool, December 2d, 1841.
"MR. CHAIRMAN AND GENTLEMEN,

" Agreeably with your instructions of the 29th
ultimo, I hearwith beg to hand the plans which I was then
required to deliver this day; they are marked and numbered
as follows, that is to say—the plan marked A contains the
design of Mr. Hartley No. 1, in juxta position with that sub-
mitted by me No. 5. An explanation of the plan and table
of contents will be found at the foot thereof.
"The plan marked B exhibits a disposition of the whole
space between the Duke's Dock and George's Basin, with an
explanation and table of contents.

"The plan marked C is an arrangement of the same space
with two Graving Docks, at the south-east corner next the
Duke's Dock.

" The plan marked D, No. 4, is the design with the Horse
Shoe Basin, containing an explanation and table of contents.
"These are the identical plans which have been exhibited
by me to the different mercantile associations, and which are
referred to in my pamphlet lately published on the dock

question

" It is with great reluctance that I feel myself called upon
at the present juncture most respectfully to advert to the re-
port of Mr. Hartley which was read at the last meeting of
the committee, inasmuch ES the subject matter of that report
necessarily carries with it great weight, from the circumstance
of its being the production of the confidential adviser of the
dock estate, and also from its being the document upon which
the committee appear to have acted last year, in the settle-
ment of the very same question which is now about to receive
their grave reconsideration.
" The predominant feature of the report in question is an
overweening desire, on the part of Mr. Hartley, to establish
a prior claim to the original idea of the principle which I
have publicly advocated, and upon which my plans are con-
structed. He struggles to establish a kind of patent right
to the principle, and then endeavours to cast ridicule upon
its application. A dock capable of containing four tiers of
vessels of nine hundred tons burthen, with a c;ear gangway
in the centre, he 'designates a ' canal' ; the object of this
singular misapplication of terms is manifest, and it is painful
to observe the labyrinth in n'hiGU this gentleman has en-
tangled both h;—....1( and his subject; he has treated it in
such a manneras to require opposite conclusions to be drawn
from the same premises. In that document he has cast a
discreditable imputation upon the writer who has now the
honour of addressing you, he has been expostulated with upon
the subject in your presence, and, although he disclaimed the
intention of any such imputation, he has suffered the errone-
ous paragraph to go before the public.
" I should not have complained in this communication of
any personal misrepresentation from Mr. Hartley, however
offensive or unjust, had it not been mixed up with an official
report which has heretofore received the sanction of the Dock
Committee.
" From the magnitude and importance of the subject upon
which the committee are about to deliberate, and the great
responsibility attached to the office of a confidential adviser
of the dock estate, it was only reasonable to expect a report
founded upon something more than the crudities of a 'hasty
consideration,' yet such is the character of the report given
by Mr. Hartley himself.
" Considering, therefore, that Mr. Hartley was called upon
to sit in judgment on a case which concerned his own pro-
fessional reputation, it is hardly to be expected that he could
pronounce an impartial verdict, if even he had given the
question his mature deliberation ; but when we find a most
momentous subject involving the interest of the whole-mer-
cantile community treated in a slovenly manner, and with
nothing but `hasty considerations,' there is little reason to
expect that such a production should contain those sound ar-
guments which are calculated to assist the superior authori-
ties in their legislative capacity.
" Under such circumstances it would seem almost unneces-
sary to enter upon a confutation of the illogical conclusions
which are drawh from the document in question ; it may,
nevertheless, be proper to combat some of the fallacious
statements therein set forth. Mr. Hartley admits the
principle which I have laid down to be correct, and re.
fers to the similarity of his own plans Submitted years ago—
he states that the Victoria, Trafalgar, and Waterloo Docks
are upon the principle of my plans, whereas the very reverse
is the case. The docks in question are no more upon the
principle which I have designed, than are any of the other
existing ones. The mercantile associations and a numerous
body of gentlemen who have inspected my drawing of Mr.
Hartley's docks, with the vessels represented therein,
can all bear testimony to the correctness of his asser-
tion ; if, however, Mr. Hartley continues to approve
of the principles, why has he designed the present dock
upon one that is diametrically opposite? The cause of
this extraordinary contradiction seems to baffle the boldest
conjecture. Mr. Hartley does not appear to be aware that
a vessel can be dropped into her discharging-berth and
hauled out again in a narrow water-space; yet this is an
operation daily performed in our long graving-docks. If his
intended square dock is filled with ships lying idle, the sup-
posed spare water-space becomes pre-occupied with a cum-
brous mass, presenting a floating barrier to the performance
of Mr. Hartley's favourite evolution of swinging a large
ship in the middle of a dock. At the concluding part of
his report he contradicti his assertion in the former part, and
thus proceeds :--` To the general principle of these four
' plans, namely, that of crowding as much loading and dia..
' charging room into as small a space as possible, without
paying due attention to other considerations, I have
decided objections.'
"To this I would reply, that nothing can be worse• than
crowding laden ships together in the middle of a dock, with-
out paying any attention to the great consideration of afford-
ing them quay accommodation whereon to land their corgoes.
Mr. Hartley forgets that the old docks afford ample water-
space, and that the new act of parliament permits the dock
authorities to remove ships from one dock to another when
requisite. If the intention is, therefore, to make the new
dock with its warehouses an important dock, of what use,
then, will be the square area of water? If warehouses are
to be the only consideration, more quay room and less water-
space should have been provided; hence the advantage of
an extended line of warehouse frontage.
" Mr. Hartley's idea that a vessels side would only touch
in the middle when moored alongside the Horse Shoe Basin
wall, and would thereby subject the ship to injury from an
unequal pressure is an absurd fallacy; this is an assertion
capable of the clearest demonstration. I must not, however,
trespass further upon your valuable time, and am, therefore,
compelled to reserve my extended observations to a more
suitable opportunity.
" I have the honour to be,
" Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,
" Your most obedient Servant,
"MICHAEL ALEXANDER GAGE.
"The Dock Committee."
The CHAIRMAN said, that from this document it was
evident that Mr. Gage contemplated covering the whole site.
After some remarks from Mr. Tobin, Mr. Aiken, Mr.
Chapman, Mr. Evans, and Mr. Ripley, in proof of Mr.
Hartley's having propounded the principle now put forth by
Mr. Gage, 17 years ago,
Mr. Askew, the South Harbour Master, was examined on
Mr. Gage's plan for covering the parliamentary site, it
being understood that the extended plan was to be left out
of consideration as impracticable.
The CHAIRMAN.—Mr. Askew have you seen this plan of
Mr. Gage's ?
Mr. ASKEW.—I have, sir.
The CHAIRMAN.—TeII us what you think of it.
Mr. TOBIN, before the question was answered, would
observe that Mr. Gage laid much stress upon the fact, that
trade had so increased within the last fifteen years, as to re-
quire double the number of docks. From this he contended
that double the number of docks would be required in the
next fifteen years ; but at the same time did he give double
the number of graving docks? So far from that, what did
he do? Upon his last amended plan he put two graving
docks only ; but if he had maintained his own proportions,
he should have put eight. Of the three graving docks that
there were, one had been taken away, and two remained,
whilst Mr. Gage had himself proved that our increased trade
would require six more ! Graving docks were so essentially
necessary that they ought to be in the centre of the docks
themselves.
Mr. ASKEW then said, he was of opinion that the Horse
Shoe plan would never do at all. A large ship could not lie
upon the convex side of the circle. There would be no safety
for her: he was sure that the pressure against her bow and
quarter would do her injury, but a very important question
was, how were they to work her ? He thought the dock
might be worked with warehouses ; but there must be an
opening between the two. The quay would be only 90 feet
wide; a cart turning would occupy a great part of
would •
The CHAIRMAN.—Which of those two plans give
the greatest amount of accommodation to the shipping in-
teresti of the port ?
Mr. ASKEW.—I am decidedly of opinion that Mr. Hart-
ley's would; but I would recommend you, if it can be done,
to widen the basin a little.
Mr. NwoL.—What width is it?
Mr. ASKEW.—it is 245 feet.
The CHAIRMAN.—What we want at present is your
opinion of the plans as they now exist.
Mr. Asxew.—l am decidedly of opinion that Mr. Hart-

ley's plan is superior to Mr. Gage's. Mr. Askew then as.
signed his reasons for several minor alterations in Mr. Hart.
ley's plans. . _

Mr. HODGSON, the North Harbour Master, was next
called. He said he had a decided objection to the horse.
shoe plan, for these reasons : The first was, that a vessel,
150 feet long, could not lie to the quay against the segment of
a circle of ten feet; his next objection was strong indraft,
which would almost be increased at certain times to a hurri.
cane, that would be created by the proposed warehouses upon
the quays; and, thirdly, that vessels could not be worked in
the dock. He would not have any entrance to the river. On
these accounts he thought Mr. Hartley's plans greatly supe.
petior to those of Mr. Gage. Twu entrances, in his opinion,
were sufficient to work three docks.

Mr. JOHN EASTON, the master of Brunswick Dock, was

. ,
next called. He said he had paid attention to the plan pro.
posed by Mr. Gage, and he was unite opposed to it. A
curved wall made it very difficult indeed to•secure the ships,
and they must be damaged by it.

Mr. CH APMAN.—Suppose it was a square basin, like
Brunswick Dock ?
Mr. EASTON said a square basin was much superior. He
had seen the basin on Mr. Hartley's plan, and he preferred
it to Mr. Gage's, but he would prefer a snore southern en-
trance.

Mr. TOBIN suggested that each person who gave his testi.
mony upon these plans should be asked what his nautical ex-
perience had been, in order that the public might be able to
estimate the value of their opinion.
Mr. EASTON. in reply, said he had followed a seafariug
life for upwards of thirty years, and that for ten years he had
been dock master.

Mr. AIKIN said, that there was not a single harbour or
dock master who had not been brought up to the sea or to the
master of a ship.
The CHAIRMAN.—And most of them have been dock
masters a very considerable time.

The CHAIRMAN.—Under all the circumstances do you
think the plan of Mr. Hartley is better than that of Mr.

Gage ?

EASTON.—Decidedly.
Mr. HORSFALL here asked Mr. Askew how long he had
been either dock or harbour master?

Mr. ASKEW said in a very few months it would be 21 years ;
and that he was the only man living in the service of the estate
who commanded a ship in the year 1800.

Mr. TOBIN.—How long have you followed the sea?
Mr. ASKEW.-1 went to sea very soon after the action of
the Ist of June, 1794.

The CHAIRMAN asked Mr. Hodeson a similar question.
Mr. HODGSON said he had been twelve years at sea, nine
years dock-master, and two years harbour-master.

- Mr. Tonm—And you were brought up among shipping
before you went to sea?

Mr. 1-10DGSON.-I have had to do with shipping for thirty-

one years

Mir. John Garniss, master of Queen's Dock, said he had
been for twenty-nine years following the seafaring profession,
and had been dock master eleven years. tic had examined
the plan of Mr. Gage, and was most decidedly opposed to
it on the same grounds as the harbour-masters.

Mr. Hugh M`Bride, master of Clarence and Trafalgar
Docks, said he had been for thirty-one years at sea, and ele-
ven years dock master. His opinion of Mr. Gage's plan
was, most decidedly, that it was inferior when compared with
Mr. Hartley's, and that it would be impracticable.
Mr. Henry Rea, master of Waterloo and Victoria docks,
who had been 27 years at sea, and seven years dock-master.
expressed a very strong objection to the circular basin, and said
that Mr. Hartley's plan was much better than Mr. Gage's.
The warehouses on the quay would make a complete funnel.
Mr. James Cosnahan, master of George's Dock, said he
had been 26 years at sea, and dock-master six years. He had
carefully examined Mr. Gage's plans, andwas must decidedly
of opinion that Mr. Hartley's were the best, for the reasons
stated by the harbour and dock masters:

The dock•mastefs' testimony being now gone through, the
committee resumed the consideration of the question whe-
ther competent engineers should be appointed to examine
the respective plans, and aid the committee with the advan-
tage of their opinion. After some discussion it was resolved,
that the opinion of two such gentlemen should be obtained;
and by a subsequent resolution, it was determined that Mr.
Walker and Mr. Cubitt should be invited to Liverpool for
that purpose.
The committee then separated.