The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-01-12 00:00:00

Mr. Councillor EARLE begged leave to second that motion.
Mr. Rathbone had made some observations-as to the necessity
of deciding in their nomination speedily. He understood that
the gentlemen who were prepared with lists had been convened
together by note, and those who were not prepared he believed
had not had the opportunity of attending that meeting.
Mr. Sharpies- would make an abservation if in order. . •
'The MAYOR.—Mr. Sharpies would have the opportunity of
reply.
Mr. Councillor L. HEY WORTH considered the amendment of
very great iniportance ;Ile did not see why the motion should
not be carried, and •the amendment applied after. He would
support both the motion and the amendment.
Mr Councillor JOHN Hoames.—The amendment did not
seem to hint to apply to the motion:
The TOWN-CLERK again read the motion.
The MAYOR agreed with Mr. Holmes. He thought the mo-
tion would,be as to the number. Iu Mr. Sharpies's motion a
number was mentioned. It appeared to hint that as there could
be but one opinion as to the recommendation for magistrates,
that the motion of Mr. Sharpies should be adopted, and then,
as to the numbers, afterwards ; the amendment would come ex-
'trendy well as to the appointment. He would recommend the
amendment to be withdrawn, and brought forward afterwards
as a distinct motion
Mr. Councillor BROCKLEBANK concurred in the observations
that had been made relative to the importance of the nomina-
tion. He thought the number of sixteen, one for every ward
would be a more proper number. As to Mr, Duncan's obser-
vation with regard to the residences, he did not think it was of
such importance to influence their choice, as that they should
choose fit and tit oper persons: Ile thought no-man should be
so anxiou s to have-justice at his door, when there was a public
office for the purpole of justice. lie begged to move "that
sixteen be the number of magistrates appointed."
Mr. Councillor Snreta—lt appeared to him that in sending
-Up a recommendation for twenty-four magistrates, they thereby
anticipated the greatest number that could in common proba-
bility be expected at any time to be required for the borough.
They, therefore, in the first instance, rag the risk of not nam-
ing the best possible persons for the office, because in selecting
twenty-four names, every gentleman would find, some difficulty
iu making out so large a number of fit and proper net-
sons at once. But the great object . was the deploring,
themselves of the power of recommending at a future peried
other gentlemen in whom they might discover higher quali-
fications. So persons infinitely better fitted than many
they would now be obliged to recommend, in consequence of
having decided on so large a number, would be excluded. He
would beg them to look seriously. at•what they were about; the
country were looking on them. They were about to decide On
a question touching the protection of those who were in most
need of it, and they should. weigh that responsibility iu
their minds. He thought it his duty to urge this, as he was, per-
haps, the representative of many persons of that class of society
who most needed such protection'. He should never shrink
fulfilling his duty; he should never be afraid of comings,
info that council and objec:ine to any man" however much he'
Wight respect him in private life if he did not think. he possess .
sed all the qualifications to superintend their interests. (Hear.)
Mr. Councillor itsrusiosta• had not spoken of his indepen--
dence and anxiety to protect the poor. He had quietly given
his consideration for the last week in. preparing a list, and
he thought that actions spoke louder. than words.
Mr.. Councillor BLACKBURN.—They should bear in mind
that the individuals appointed would mostly be advanced in
life,' and that many individuals now appointed might cease,
after a short time, from age, to act as magistrates ; deaths
would also occur. He did not, there-fore, think that they
should be precluded for any great length of time from appoint-
ing future magistrates, because vacancies would occur. He
thought they should have no difficulty in finding twenty-four
individuals posessing the requisite qualifications; and thought
that that should be the number eledted.
Mr. Councillor JORDAN concurred with " every thing" that
had been said.
The May-oe then proceeded to put the amendment to the
vote, and afterwards the motion. The numbers were :—for the
amendment, 13; against it, 42. The Mayor then declared the .
motion carried.
The Mayott.—The next thing which called their attention
was the ntode of nominal leg the gentlemen whom in their opi-
eion were qttalitied for the situation of magistrates. He begged
'leave tosay, as a member of the council, that he had seen
,no fist,
and did not know the names of the gentlemen to be proposed.
He fhonght he ought not to be called on to vote at once for
gentlemen whom he was now called on to hear nominated for
the first time. 'He spoke as a member of the council. He
thought they would do well to receive the names that all parties
thought desirable to be recommended and to make a list of those
names, and hereafter come prepared to select the proper num-
ber from them. For it was to be expected in a meeting of that
kind that although a het be proposed, yet other gentlemen
might feel themselves entitled, as they undoubtedly were, to
nominate whom they thought eligible. His own opinion was.
that they had a right, each individual, to have the opportunity
of opposing and weighing the qualifications of each individual
who was to be recommended to so important—so awful a trust.
Perhaps Mr. Sharpies would suggest the mode in which they
should proceed:
Mr.-Councillor STIARPLES had heard the mayor's observa-
tions and those of others who differed from him (Mr. Sharpies.)
No one was more impressed with the importance of selecting
magistrates than he was, and for thatvery reason he had moved
an adjournment of the question on Wednesday last to that day;
and he did think it was wrong for them to say that they were
unprepared; it was rather trilling with the council that they
were not prepared. He did not know when they were to come
prepared if they were to adjourn in that way limn day to day.
He thought it rather trifling to put it off because some gentle-
man had not given that attention to it which others hail. He
shoUld therefore consider it his duty to persevere in the original
motion,•" that they should now proceed to time election of twe nty-
four gentlemen to be recommended to his majesty's secretary of
state for the home department, as magistrates tor this borough."
The MaYoa.--eßefore they proceeded he would make one re-
mark. The council should never find 4iim, as tilling that chair,
trifling in any way with that council. The question was, that it
was decided they should pray for a commission of the peace;
they, with great propriety, moved an adjournment'of it to this
day. They came now prepared, and he should be very glad to
hear them, with a list-of such names as they thought qualified;
when they had given those names in he •did think he was en-
titled to a little consideration of the names now for the. first time
to be suomitted to that council. S Hear.)
Mr. Councillor A!IPI4:S begged to state that in
.110 w the
worst" trifling" he did not use ft at ail offensively. It was diffi-
cult in a new member to use words quite right.
Mr. Councillor EAt: LE said that twenty or thirty gentlemen
had been together, convened by note, and had determined on a
'list beforehand, and they now came to the council to cram that
list down their throats whether they would or nut. (Confusion
and cries of Order, order," "Chair.")
Mr. Alderman Bnowa was not aware that the magistrates
were to be nominated that day. He should like to see a list of
all the name's that every gentlemen had, and that they might be
discussed.
Mr. Councillor RaennoNE ventured to rise to order, and to
make, through the Mayor, some suggestions to Mr. Earle. He
was sure he felt most kindly towards Mr. Earle, but he did
think los reinalks had much' better have been spared in that
council if they were to go on. He was sure every gentleman
in that room would give Mr. Earle credit for " peifect" inten-
tions. Let Mr. Earle give other gentlemen the same credit.
The meeting to which Mr. Earle had referred he believed he
(Mr. B.) was invited to himself; it was no secret. He gloried
in that meetinz ; he thought it was only evidence of their soli-
citude for the public good, and nothing of party spirit could be
objected to that meeting. They met that they night take up
less of the time of the- council in debating. And, therefore, he
had made out a list, and he thought he was most meritorious in
so doing. He thought be had given them good reasons another
time why they should proceed with as much speed as possible.
He trusted they should not have these remarks "cramming
down," he was sure they were not intended by Mr. Earle.
Mr. Councillor EARLE.—I beg your pardon Mr. Rathbone,
but they were fully intended.
Mr. Councillor RATH RON E.—Then I must say if they are in-
tended they are very offensive.
The Maroit.—ln the remark that. Mr. Earle made. so long
as he kept from anything personal, I had no right to interfere;
and I understood him to say, that " they ought not," asihe Said
rather strongly, " to have the lists crammed down their throats."
No personal remark was made, and, therefore, no on need
apply it personally.
Mr. Couneillor 'EAR LE.—I suppose I may rise in reply?
The Ma'am—Certainly.
Mr. Councillor EA R LE.—lf, when I made muse of that expres-
sion, the cap fitted extremely tight, I cannot help it : I shall
not take the trouble to retract it. (Mr. Earle continued
standing, and there was a long pause; at length he sat down
amidst cries of "Hear, hear.")
Mr. Councillor H. LAWRENCE did not conceive that any gen-
tle men were entitled to such excessive merit, but that there might
be many gentlemen who might produce twenty-four names fully
as desirable as those to be produced on that occasion.- He did
not think that any gentlemen, however impartial they imight
think themselves, when they came there pledged to supeost,any
twenty-four names written down on a piece or paper without
heariug the other side, were very impartial. •
Mr. Councillor LanTuott had not had an opportunity of at-
tending the meeting alluded to, though he had received a wake.
He had never thought of making a list till he came into that
room.. But he had since found that the number of 'twenty-four
gentlemen was agreed on, who were to be proposed exclusively
to that council. He did not think that was the correct way of
putting the members to the council, because the number who.
would thus vote would appoint the magistrates, and exclude the
opinions of the rest of the council. He did think there might
be many gentlemen on the other political side of the question
whose intelligence would qualify them to act as magistrates for
the borough, and that an opportunity should be
.granted them
.of being brought forward, and that they .not dictate the
whole twenty-four gentlemen. He thmght, too,:that before
isentlemen were nominated it would be desirable to ascertain
whether they would accept the office, if given-to them :it might
save them useless trouble.
Mr. Councillor fleewoeTn.—Each list was considered, anti
not adopted without due reflection. -He was satisfied in his own
mind that they were gentlemen perfectly eligible. Those gen-
tlemen who had not had an opportunity of canvassing those
names might each of them bring a list, if they thou ht proper.
If they were not prepared with twenty-four names, it was their
own fault. Ile should have been most happy in receiving the
assistance any other gentlemen of the council in suggesting
names, and,if they had been debarred that privilege, it was not
their own-fault; and under these circumstances•he should give
his vote to the motion.
The Mayon.—Mr. Lawrence Heyworth would recollect that
it was only within the last quarter of an hour that the number
had been decided on, so that it was impossible to have come with
a list, not knowing how many would he required. He was of
opinion that further time should be given. He would not agree
as a councillor to recommend individuals whose names he then
heard for the first time.
Mm. Councillor COGT,AN begged to state, that, when he at-
tended the meeting alluded to, he did not consider himself bound
to vote for the gentlemen whose names he heard, and he had
made out a list distinct from the other individuals; and he
would be bound there was a diversity in the lists of every gentle-
man present.
Mr. Councillor lIORNBY.—It was in the power of any
gentleman, when the names were proposed seriatim, to move au
amendment.
Mr. Councillor 11. LAWRENCE.—According to Mr. Sharpies'
proposition. the greatest number of names for any„ entleman, in
the lists handed in, was to determine the election.
The Towis-CsEnk was decidedly of opinion
,that such au
election would be • illegal, and would be held to be void;
and not on any rule of law, butt on the good sense Of.the ques-
tion. if the members were proposed separately, a very different
result might be obtained from the whole being, proposed toge-
ther; for many individuals would submit to vote for one person
in order to secure what they thought a worthy appointment, who
would not thus vote for him if he were classed one of a party.
Besides that court was a deliberative court, and such a court
was entitled not only to the nomination, but to the deliberation
of every individual of the court in coining to a conclusion.
Mr. Councillor Coo LAN wished to have the opportunity of
explaining that the gentlemen who had attended that meeting,
of which he was one, had not pledged themselves to any list;
and there was no individual pledged so tar as he knew. lie
for one, and several others, bad abstained from pledging them-

selves, He had names on his list which were very likely not
on the lists of others,
Mr. Alderman_ FREME thought it would be a perfect nullity In
them to "call" the reporters there to record the consummation
of their acts if they were not to lay before the Oublic the delibe-
rations on their acts also ; and this being so important an aCt he
thought they ought not so to du. They had no right to hear in that
councii-room any decisions that had been made out of it. They
were there met clearly to deliberate and act fur the public, and
he thought on so important an occasion they should take great
time for deliberation, and show the public that they had not
interest.
Mr. unadvisedly, but for the public
• Mr. Councillor ArKlN.—The town-clerk had stated' that such
a mode would not be legal on an election ; but as this was
merely a recommendation he presumed it was for themselves
to judge as to the best mode of proceeding in it. He trusted
they should duly examine every name presented to them, and
out of all the names select twenty-four men, the wisest, the fittest,
and best qualified to fill the office. He could see..no possible rea-
son, in making that choice, why a momentary delay would be in-
jurious—the delay of a couple of days could not do any possible
harm, and might do much good. He would move as an amend-
ment " that we postpone the choice for two or three days
longer."
The MaYOR would not interfere with Mr. Sharples's motion;
but thought the council should have a little time before the
names were given in.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN did not know that he had been
guilty of an unpardonable sin to the council in snaking a list.
The Mavort.—Such a remark was uncalled for.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN.—At the same time he was only,
desirous of availing himself of the advice of others in that meet-
ing, and considered it was strictly within their province to as-
semble so together. But he thought, as a matter of courtesy,
they ought to give way to the opinions of others. He thought
it would be the best course to propose names, and come at some
future day to decide on that list. (Hear.)
Mr. Councillor SMITH was one who did not wish to "cram"
anything "down the throats" of any one present, as he Would
not have anything cremated down his throat. His list was per-
fectly independent of other lists.
'line Mavon.—Before they proceeded to the lists they would
.allow him to say that he hoped the council would recollect, in
the observations he made, he neither implied nor conveyed any
censtne on the gentlemen who met, to arrange for the pro-
ceedings of that day; on the coutrarys he thought such meet-
ings might facilitate the business of the council'. He thought,
however, after the names had been heard that they should not
be called on immediately to vole.
Mr. Councillor LI EY WORTH concurred in the observations of
the mayor.
Mr. Councillor JORDAN was totally unprovided with lists, and
thought they should have time to deliberate.
The Marrin.--lt had beets suggested that it-would perhaps
meet the wishes of all parties if the members should send seated
lists to the,mayor, to be opened-at • the next council meeting,
and determine the choice of councillors by the greatest neniber
of votes. He would take the sense of the council in any way
they pleased. -• . -
Mr. Councillor Botsrost thought that would be a very incon-
venient mode of proceeding. Ile thought Riese should be a
discussion an 'every name as proposed. lie was pledged to no
list ; he should vote as he thought fit on each name, as he
thought it etligible or not when proposed.
Mr. Councillor Sn Aire L Ks had listened with great attention.
to'what had passed. Seeing there was a wish on the part of
gentlemen not now to come to a decision, and nut wishing to
press the thing unfairly he was quite willing to adjourn it.
(Hear.) He should move that an early day. be fixed -for its
further discussion. Ile decidedly objected to the plan the
mayor had proposed, to send in sealed lists. Ile thought they
should, all attend there and have their lists prepared and have a
discussion on each name.
The Mayon begged Mr. Sharples pardon; it was not a pro-
position of his. Would he be kind enough to let them proceed
by mentioning the first name on their list.
• Mr. Councillor SIiARPLES.—" I.- move that we adjourn until
Monday."
The MAYOR.—DO you not mean that the names should he
named now. (Cries of " so, no," from most of the liberal
! councillors.)
• Mr. Councillor SH ARP 1.%5.—1 move that the meeting be ad-
journed until Monday, at eleven o'clock, for the purprise of going
to a division, and that we come prepared.
'The Mayoe.—They would observe that the same objection
might be made by the council on Monday. that the 'council was
called on to come prepared as a body to vote on names which
were then heard in council for the first time. (Hear.) Ile
thought that the names were to be given in then, and betwixt
then and the day of choice there would be time to make up their
minds by inquiries and.refiection as to the persons most eligible.
If they adjourned without mentioning names, they should have
done nothing that day whatever.
Mr. Councillor BoisroN would move that there should be no
discussion about lists, and that on Monday the discussion should
begin and end on the proposition of each name. That there
should be. no discussion but on each name, unless a person
i moved an amendment to a name.
Mr'. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE seconded the motion.
Mr. Councillor S ti A it es r:s.—l L' any- gentleman wished to know
the names, and would inquil e privately of any gentlemen in that
room, they would be glatt to furnish them.
After some further discussion, it was agreed that all the lists
should be given in to the town-clerk, under the inclosure of
each gentleman, and that every member of the council should
furnish each member of the council with a list of the whole;
and that the discussion of the question should be adjourned till
Tuesday nest I this day) at eleven o'clock, when each member
of the council should come prepared with a list of twenty-four
eligible gentlemen to fill the office of justice of the peace.
The Ma Yell thought it right to telt them that the late town-
clerk had. been seen, and was ready to issue a precept for the
Stllllllloo ingof a jury for the sessions, not for the '2lth instant,
but fir the ustut4 time. Mr. Foster rather wished to come in
and signify that ass,,ent, with the proviso that his continuing to
do so was not to prejudice tidy claim that he might have fur
compensation. • sss,
The TOWN-CLIUt a saidlhat in his interview with. Mr. Foster
he had said that he (Mr. Luster) wits willing to act according
to the directions of the council, in issuing a precept as clerk of
the-peace; but he would wish to attend the council to state that
he did so on the understanding that his present position should
not be changed by the proceedings they should direct him to
take. The bailiff, Mr. Lace, was prepared to act on that pre-
cept.
The Msvoe.—There could be no objection to their quite
agreeing to Mr. Foster's proposal. .-
Nlr. Councillor B s aims au aN wished- to know w if the-town-clerk
could not act in that case'
ChesTowst-csank said his office was as town-clerk; Mr.
Foster had filled the double capacity uuder.the old corporation
of town-clerk and clerk of the, peace.
Mr. Councillor DuscaN would wish to know in that case
why Mr- Foster wished this acknowledgement on their part to
be made ?
The 'TOWN-CLERK.—Previous to the municipal act, the gene-
ral appointment had been as town-clerk, but the lown-clerk
then acted as clerk of the peace: under the present act, it was
the impression of Mr. Rushton and other legal gentle:nen that
the offices.were perfectly distinct. Mr. Foster, however, was of
opiniou that he was only clerk of the peace because that office
was incidental to the town-clerkship. Ile, therefore, thought
the council should give directions to Mr. Foster that his present
position should not be prejudiced by his acting as clerk of the

peMr..ace Councillor LAWRENCE explained Mr. Foster's position
and concurred with the town-clerk.
The MAyou then inquired if it was the wish of the counci,
that Mr. Foster should attend, which beine. signified, the town.
clerk was desired to wait on Mr. Foster to say the council
requested his attendance on the subject of the sessions.
Mr. Councillor .JOHN lIOLMEs meantime read the report of
the finance committee accepting the resignation of Mr. White-
man and Mr. Barrow.
Mr. Foster now entered and was requested to take a chair.
The M Avon then said:—You are aware, Mr. Foster, from
the town-clerk, that you are here, partly in pursuance your
own wish; to receive an assurance from the council that your
acting as -clerk of the peace shall not be prejudicial to your
present situation.
Mr. FOSTER.—That is one object for which I was desirous of
attending this council.
The Ni"Avou.—And you are willing to issue 'youfprecept ?
Mr. FOSTER.—I am desirous of stating to the council not only
what I have done but what lam willing to do. I was rather
anxious to make this statement personally,': because I hope
that the council will do me the justice to believe that, whatever
circumstances have occurred, I am not the man to wish, under
any circumstances, to conceal or to hesitate in explaining any part
of my public conduct ; and I was ready, and am ready now, to
answer any question the council may think it fit to put to use in'
regard to any part of my conduct in the discharge of my duty.
And it is on that account that I felt anxious to tell this council,
that instead of communicating. with gentlemen acting under me,
the council need never hesitate to send tir ..me to explain
any part of my conduct. I allude to that in 14, rticular, because
it seems to me as if it were supposed 1 had the wish that the
sessions should not be held in the usual manner. I beg
leave to disclaim 'any such wish, I beg also to disclaim any
such intention. The period had scarcely arrived when any
step was to be taken on the subject of the
sessions 'when I
was displaced. Had the council determined otherwise—had
I not been displaced—it was •my intention to have stated
that I should, under a doubtful construction of one or two of
the clauses in this bill, have at once proceeded to do what
was necessary for then .administration of justice, and 1 am
ready to do it now ;—I *ever hesitated to do it. ( Hear, hear.)
With respect to the gentlemen who have given a written
opinion I do not coincide in that opinion. But I wish to state
that I. am ready and willing at all times to do what lies in my
power for the administration of justice, and not to stand in th'e
way of such object. In doing that I only _trust that I shall
receive front this council a distinct assurance that my position
is not altered in any respect by it—that ( still am to have. those
rights to: which I am entitled, whiled am most- willing to give
every information in my, power. (Applause.) • •
The Nlsv,on.—l had it already in my power to give that as-
surance to you, before you entered the room, in order that no
delay may lake place in issuing the precept as soon as possible.
There has no expression fallen from any gentleman in this
council in the slightest degree conveying all intention to inter-
fere with your right to compensation.
Mr. FosrEa.—l an) perfectly satisfied with that explanation.
I am perfectly ready to do what I can for the administration of
justice in any way ; and I beg to repeat, that whatever may be
theopinion
of any gentlemen in this room, I am ready
now, and shall be ready at any time to give any information on
any subject connected with my public duty.
Mr. Councillor IiATHRONE.—Rather than his servants should
be asked, with the permission of the council if it was their wish
ho would put the questions which were intended to be put to
Mr. Ellis and Mr. Shuttleworth. The council were aware what
those questions were.
Toe MAYOR asked if it was the pleasure of the council that
Mr. Itathbone. through him should put those questions to Mr.
Foster.
Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE thought this question was left to
the committee.
The MAYOR thought so too. It was quite clear that this bu-
siness was referred to a committee, and he was quite satisfied
that Mr. Foster would satisfy the committee immediately on
being required.
Mr. Councillor JORDAN thought it not fair to ask any more
questions of Mr. Foster.
Mr. Councillor SHAriet,Es thought it would be a satisfaction
to Mr. Foster to have that opportunity of answering them.
Mr. Councillor RAt9noNE.-1 sun perfectly satisfied that
these questions should be asked f,y the
ested commi
hatttMee.
Foster be at
Mr. Councillor JORDAN then sugg tr.
liberty to retire.
'rhe MAYOR, as Mr. Foster was retiring. requested that the
precept should be issued immediately so as to• have the sessions
on the 18th.
Mr. FOSTER.—Certainly.
Mr. Foster then withdrew. •
Mr. Councillor SnARPLES wished it to be understood, as there
seemed to be several opinions about it, whether they should !
vote by list or not. Ile wished that they should vote by list,
and that they who had the majority of names should -tie elected.
The Ma vou.—With respect to voting by
was certainly that they were to adopt the usual mode as in the
case of alderman.
After some be
gh conversation lists his opinion
Mr. RAT.DUONE beged to move "that a watch committee be
now appoiuted, to consist of tixteen member*: of %%liar three-