The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-03-05 00:00:00

ABSTRACTJON 01
OF
reCLEST4
iigNIJES OF ,7,ollleki WALI

!TTCAL RE

A public meeting was held on Tuesday evening i•n the
Welsh Charity School, Russell-street, for the purpose of
into consideration the propriety of petitioning the
the Ecelesiaitical. Commissioners, and the two
Parliament, against the intended union of the
of St. Asaph and Bangor, and the abstraction of the

houses cc
dioces

ecclesiastical revenues or wort►► vv aces. tne meeting was
numerously attended. There were present the Rev. Robert
Davies, incumbent of St. David's Church, the Rev. Henry
Jones, vicar of Northop, the Rev. Hugh Jones, incumbent
ILA I

of Bagillt, the Rev. David James, incumbent of St. Mary's.
Kirkdale, the Rev. Thomas Pughe, curate of Tremerchion,
and the Rev. Thomas S. Bowstead ; also, Messrs. J. B.
Clough, Thomas Barber, Richard Griffith, Ellis Jones,
Robert Bevan, Thomas Roberts, Dr. Hughes, Owen Wil-
liams, David Evans, Robert Wynne, John Price, John
;ichards, John Jones, W. C. Davies, Edward Roberts, S.
&c. &C.
- nristvn•ra_ cprnnderl by Mr..

On the motion o

iied to the chah;

The CHAIRMAN rose and said—However flattering it must
be to my feelings, and I confess it is not a little so, to have
been called upon to take the chair on this very important oc-
casion, I assure you I comply with the call under great re-
luctance, and only in respectful obedience to your wishes, for
I fear you have sadly over estimated my ability to do justice
to your choice, as I am but too conscious of being deficient
in tact, talent, and experience for a proper discharge of the
duties lam undertaking. Nevertheless, as it has been.your
good pleasure to place me in this position, I will not shrink
from the duties it involves, though I shall have to draw
largely on your indulgence and support in my endeavours to
perform them. It now becomes part of my duty to lay be-
fore you as briefly as possible the business of the evening.
The public announcements under which we are assembled
will have informed you generally of the objects we have in
view ; which are, I may be allowed to say, of vital import-
ance to the religious and moral welfare of our fellow-coun-
trymen in North Wales. They are in some degree of a two-
fold character, involving the question of a petition to the
Queen, to her Majesty's Ecclesiastical Commissiontrs, and
to both houses of Parliament—first, for the repeal of an act
already passed, and secondly, for the prevention of one about
to be brought forward shortly. The act already passed has
decreed, as you are probably aware, the union of the two di-
oceses of St. Asaph and Bangor at no distant period, depen-
dent on the lives of the two venerable prelates who now adorn
those sees ; so that on their demise, there shall be one bishop
only for North Wales, thereby abolishing one of the most
sacred, ancient, and venerated institutions in the princi-
pality ; while the act about to be passed contemplates the
abstraction of all the surplus revenues of the church in those
dioceses, arising from the effects of the previous act and
other sources in Wales, for the endowment of some English
bishopric, and for other purposes under the controul of the
ecclesiastical commissioners, without any regard to the ex-
igencies of the church itself throughout Wales, which have so
long bear matter of such notoriety. 'These, gentlemen, will
form the subjects for your discussion this evening. They are
fraught with considerations of the highest interest to our
country and our clergymen; but as it is not within my pro-
vince, occupying the chair, to expatiate on their merits, I
must leave that to other and abler hands, and hare only to
express a hope that those gentlemen who intend to address
the meeting will be good enough to confine their observations
as closely as possible to the two points I have alluded to, as
being those only we are called upon to discuss this evening.
Mr. RICHARD GRIFFITH, after expressing his hearty con-
currence in the objects of the meeting, moved the following
resolution :—" That this meeting, holding it to be the great
and fundamental principle of a Christian legislature to in-
crease and not diminish the advantages of spiritual instruc-
tion; respectfully remonstrate against the union of the bishop-
rics of St. Asaph and Bangor, which, by placing the whole
district of North Wales under the superintendence of one
prelate, would have the effect of removing the clergy gene-
rally to a greater distance from their diocesan, thereby ob-
structing that personal intercourse so desirable between the
bishop and his clergy, and depriving many local charities of
that support which is at present afforded them." (Applause.)
The Rev. ROBERT DAVIES rose with great pleasure to
second the resolution. It was one, he said, of immense im-
portance, and one also to which he could not by any possibi-
lity conceive that any one really anxious for the advancement
of Christianity could possibly find an objection. The reso-
lution seemed to divide itself into three particular portions.
The first was, " That this meeting holds it to be the great
and fundamental principle of a Christian legislature to in-
crease and not diminish the advantages of spiritual instruc-
tion." Could there be a doubt as to the correctness of this
position? Could it be for a moment questioned? Why,
then, was the thing ever mooted to unite the dioceses of
Bangor and St. Asaph ? What was the necessity for it ?
That appeared to be the first question. The diocese of
Chester had been divided :, a portion of that immense dis-
trict had been, or was about to be, given to Ripon ; another
portion was to be erected into a separate see at Manchester,
while the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor were to be united.
Why had this taken place ? In consequence of the increase
of population. The manufacturing districts of Lancashire
and Yorkshire had so amazingly increased in population as
to require additional churches, and consequently additional
pastors, and also increased the labours of the diocesan who
had to preside over those various churches. He approved,
and had no doubt that all there present would readily ac-
knowledge their obligations to the legislature for what they
had done in this instance : it had been indeed consistent
with the principle laid down in the resolution, inasmuch as
they had, in the diocese of Chester, increased and not dimi-
nished the advantages of spiritual instruction. (Hear.) He
hoped the meeting would bear this in mind with respect to
the case in Wales. Why had the legislature divided tha
diocese of Chester ?' Because the increase of population and
the increase in the number of churches called for it. On the
other hand, why had they united the dioceses of Bangor and
St. Asaph [lad the population of Wales decreased ? Had
the number of churches in Wales decreased ? Was it not
rather notorious that year after year the bishops of both
those dioceses were called upon to consecrate new churches ?
and was there not at this very moment a very great increase
of spiritual pastors, and of established churches, within the
principality ? (Applause.) That being the case, how could
it be made out that it was essential to increase the lat
of the pr

tg bishop by uniting the two dioceses, both in-
ey were in population, and in the number of
(Hear, hear.) The thing was preposterous : it
strewed the fallacy upon which the legislature had proceeded.
If the principle he had pointed out as a portion of the reso-
lution was the true principle, the government, in passing that
law whereby the two dioceses were to be united in one when-
ever a vacancy took place, had, he plainly asserted, departed
from it. It was a principle that might be maintained in the
face of the whole world. (Applause.) This was a matter
deserving of serious consideration. They had met to peti",
tion the legislature to repeal that act. Could it be supposed
that a legislature composed and elected of all the communi-
ties in the land, where we expected to see a generality of
principle, of talent, and of everything that could really con-
duce to the advantage and benefit of the country, would re-
fuse to consider a petition emanating from persons really
anxious for the spiritual and eternal welfare of the commu-
nity ? Could they look on with unconcern to the represent-
ations that meeting would make upon the necessity of repeal-
ing that act? (Hear, hear, and cries of " No.") It was
that, then, they petitioned for : they were petitioning for the
repeal of an act already law. And what were their hopes of
success ? Their hopes rested upon the justice of their cause.
(Hear, and applause.) It might be desirable, perhaps, to
mention a circumstance which sheaved the force of justice.
It was at one time intended to unite the diocese of Sodor
and Man with the diocese of Carlisle. The Bishop of
Sodor and Man, however, saw the wrong that would be
done, though not intended, to the diocese of Sodor and Man,
by coupling it with a diocese divided from it by so many
waters. He therefore left no stone unturned to prevent the
union ; he got up petition after petition, to the throne and
the parliament, against it, and he succeeded. (Hear, hear.)
He proved the necessity of maintaining the integrity of both,
and particularly of that sweet island being kept under the
superintendence of one spiritual pastor. (Cheers.) The
principle, then, which that meeting should advocate, should
be not the diminution of bishops but the increase of them.
(Hear.) Look at the example of other religious communi-
ties. They increased their superintendence as their congre-
gations increased. The Wesleyan body increased the num-
ber of their circuits if the congregations-became greater than
the president of the district could superintend, and another
president was appointed. Why then should one of the
Church of England be shut out from the same advantage ?
If our churches increased, and the labours of our bishops in-
creased, in consequence why not separate their dioceses ra-
ther than unite tly,ert ? (Hear, hear.) This principle was in
operation every where : he could prove that it was in opera-
tion in every religious community, and indeed in every com-
Munity in the land. (Hear.) Every man, whatever was
his position in society, as his labour increased required in-
creased help; and therefore, if the church was to go on with;
out more " heavy blows and great discouragements," her
members must contend for the number of her bishops to be
increased rather than diminished. (Cheers.) Here, then,
was the question—why was there a solicitude to diminish
rather than incresse the number of bishops? The only reply
he had heard to this question was a jealousy of increasing the
number of spiritual peers. But that effect was not wanted :
there was no necessity for that jealousy. Already ten
bishoprics had been blotted out in Ireland, and there had
been no decrease in the number of spiritual peers ; and if
they were re-elected to-morrow there would be no more spi-
ritual peers than there were at present. Let coadjutor or
sub-bishops be appointed if necessary, if there was no alter-
native but to increase their number ; but do not throw addi-
tional responsibility upon hands which could not by any
means superintend it. The next point in the resolution was,
that the meeting respectfully remonstrated against the union
of the bishoprics of St. Asaph and Bangor, because it placed
the whole district of North Wales under the superintendence
of one prelate. (Hear.) Look at the importance of North
Wales ; look at the position of the dioceses of Bangor and
St. Asaph I look at the mountainous nature of the country,
and the difficulty of access from one place to another, and
then say whether. North Wales did not present a strong case
for an increase rather than a diminution in the number of
bishops. (Hear, hear.) Besides the clergy would be placed,
as the resolution expressed, generally at a greater distance
from their diocesan, and thus the intended union would ob-
struct that pastoral intercourse which ought always to sub-
sist between a bishop and his clergy. He knew well, too,
that those individuals who lived in the vicinity of Bangor
were not now alive to the permanent injury that would be
done to them when the cqntemplated union took place ; and
that if the diocese of St. Asaph were subverted, the same
would be felt all through the whole vale of Clwyd. The only
other subject connected with the resolution was the tendency
which the intended union would; have to deprive the local
charities of a considerable portion of their funds. A bishop,
wherever he resided, had an income to expend, and it must
be spent in the neighbourhood of his residence. The schools
and hospitals in the vicinity must be supported, and fre-
quently they derived much of that support from the bishop.
Only imagine, then, the loss to public charities which must
arise from such a person, with an income of £4,500 per an-
num, being completely carried away. At present the bishop
must necessarily spend some part of his income in Wales,
and the meeting would be led from that circumstance to feel
the injury done to the principality by the abstraction of the
revenues of one bishopric. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he
hoped that such an united feeling, and such an united ex-
pression of that feeling, would be sent from Liverpool to Par-
liament, as would satisfy them that it was their duty, as the
representatives of the land, to repeal the law uniting the two
dioceses which'they had inadvertently passed. (Hear, hear.)
The reverend gentleman then repeated the substance of his
speech in:the Welsh language, for the benefit of those who
could not understand him in English.
The Rev. T. S. BOWSTEAD rose to second the resolution.
Although lie had no connection with the principality, he had
carefully studied its history ; he had also travelled on foot
from one end•of it to the other, and was, therefore, perfectly
acquainted with its localities. On these accounts he felt it
deep interest in its welfare and prosperity. (Cheers.) He
also felt a deep interest in it upon the general principle on
which our own church was founded—namely, that its doc-
trines should be preached in the language which the people
understood. (Hear.) So long as the Welsh language was
a vernacular language, that language ought to be understood
both by bishops and clergy. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) If
they had not already been instructed in it, they ought tq learn
the language ; and the clergy ought to preach in it from
house to house. (Loud cheers.) If the population of the
country had increased, were we, therefore, to diminish the
number of bishops? (Hear, hear, and cries of "no, no.")
The physical boundaries of the country were the same as they
had ever been •, nothing but an inundation could diminish
those limits—but even to the sea it had been said, "Thus
far thou shalt go, and no further." If the population of
Wales had absolutely increased, instead of diminished, where
was the x eason for reducing the number of bishops ? (Cheers)

the clergy