The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-06-05 00:00:00

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for it most assuredly formed part of the value of the goods,
and he expected to be repaid again. He happened to deal
in an article, his share of which paid to the government
£130,000 a-year ; but what would they say if he went to the
Excise or the Customs, and asked them to make a place for
him there ? It was exactly the same way with the rate-payers
here. He admitted that the question was open on the ground
of expediency and of investigation, whether the rate-payers,
as mercantile men, were not the best qualified to sit on the
Dock Committee ; but he did maintain that the rate-payers
were to be found in the council-room--that the mercantile
intelligence was there, and must ever be there ; and those
who apprehended it would not exist in that room might be
on the look-out for other casualties or they might be expect-
ing a millenium or something else; but there was no (pie
-
don according to all probability (the basis of all human
legislation,) that the council would contain withinitself a ma-
jority of great merchants and great rate-payers, and would
be possessed of all the requisite knowledge, and all the requi-
site interest, to manage the docks in the best practical man-
ner, while they themselves were under the check of a re-
sponsibility greater than that of any other body that was
ever known for such a purpose. He would refer any gen-
tleman to what was the responsibility of the Dock Com-
mittee-and dock trustees. Was there not a battery of
about seven or eight newspapers ; was it not for ever
pointed at them, with their lighted matches ready, to pour
into them for the slightest error or neglect ! And the
machinery, also' was so complete, that if the periodical
press neglected them, there was the council before which
they must come, and they, being within the room them-
selves, were held personally responsible in a manner that
the rate-payers never could be. He had heard it observed
that the fact of their being there caused them to be a little
complimented. Gentlemen said, " Oh, if everything goes ou
as now, I have no fault to find with the committee ; they are
men of honour and mercantile intelligence, and matters are
safe in their hands." He would ask, if it were so now, why
should it ever be otherwise ? Or, if it were otherwise with
those that went from the council, might it not be the same
with those that went from the rate-payers? If there was
Scylla on one side, there was Charybdis on the other. Were
he not anxious to redeem his pledge of being concise, which
was extremely difficult on an occasion when the mind was so
full of arguments on every side as his was, he could go into
a minute description of what was the general character of the
rate-payers: In elections for the House of Commons, there
was a moral inculcated everywhere, that the man who goes
to vote was bound to give it according to his conscience. But
he was not left to that only; the legislature came in, and in-
flicted a penalty on every man who gave his vote for gain or
improper purposes. But the rate-payer was under no such
restraint. He considered his vote as his own ; he would do
as he liked with it ; he felt an obligation in the world, and,
therefore, he would more easily contemplate a view of job-
bing or of advantage to himself or relations, or getting men
into it (the Dock Committee,) than a man who was respon-
sible for his good conduct, and whose conscience was alive
with regard to his vote. Now, to shOw the -character of this
kind of a constituency : there was one moment, when there
was some movement, that everything was carried by impulse;
at another, there was perfect apathy. (Hear.) When there
was not an affair of general interest, no man felt it touch
himself directly ; and the consequence was, that the very few
active and interested men who were always on the watch to
pervert all public institutions to their own benefit, would
continue to put into the Dock Committee those who would
suit their own purpose. There was no question that if the
Dock Committee, at this moment, were elected out of the
rate-payers, the council would have seen such a spirit of op-
position to dock warehouses as would positively have foiled
the bill ; or if the warehouse-owners erected them, they
would pounce on them, and make them a source of emolument
to themselves or their friends. As an exemplification of what
this species of what he called desultory constituency was, he
would refer to the parish—to the vestry—to the very recent in-
telligence which they had in London, by which he conceived
that the town was scandalised. It was perfectly obvious that
the vestry was packed with anti-warehousemen. They had sent
up a petition in their vestry character. He believed the late
chairman of the Warehouse and Land Association had also
been made a churchwarden ; and there was also in London,
at that moment, a deputation, with the parish-clerk at their
head, at a vast expense of the public money—nay, pretend-
ing to be looking out after the parish interests, when in reality
it was the warehouse interest under the parish flag, and in
disguise. The interests of the parish were never refused.
They (the council) were asked for no conference on the sub-
ject ; they supposed they had provided for them in every
respect ; and if there was anything left out, if it was neces-
sary they (the vestry) should take any care, they had only to
look after the bill to interpose their clauses. But what did
they do ? They went up and opposed the bill with, as he
had already said, a packed vestry, and a churchwarden of
the warehouse-owners, and lately the president of that body.
He mentioned this to show that where there was an unsettled
constituency to elect persons to fulfil offices that did not di-
rectly come into contact with the interests of the community,
that neglect and apathy were always sure to ensue, and that
what was everybody's business was always found to be no-
body's business, except the few interested men who were
always prowling about such elections, in order to turn them
to their own advantage. He conceived that where a govern-
ment had worked well, and no case had yet been made out
against them, nothing could be more injudicious, or more at
variance with the legislative spirit of this country, than to
interfere with them. If they had submitted to have the Dock
Committee altered in any way, and at variance with that
feeling and principle in this country which was for letting
what did well alone—if they bad given their consent to it, it
had been, as he had already observed, in order to gratify a
theoretical idea, to procure quiet and contentment for the
future, and to obtain the great advantage of the bill now be-
fore parliament. It had been observed that they (the coun-
cil) ought to relinquish equality because they had the veto.
Now, with regard to political influence, with regard to pa-
tronage, they (perhaps the deputation) firmly believed that
that was the root of all the objections on the part of several
members of parliament. That veto did nothing at all ; for
the Dock Committee very properly preserved within itself
the nomination of all its own stipendiary servants. There-
fore, that part of it that consisted in patronage never came
before the council to receive a negative. They had had,
among other clap-trap cries which members of parliament
had raised, that of monopoly and competition. He had
merely mentioned this subject, because nothing was more
necessary than to undeceive them on that point. The
landed gentry of this country were obliged to form their opi-
nions on general principles, and therefore they were likely to
make the greatest particular errors ; for, without making
themselves acquainted with the exceptions, which were very
often stronger than the rule, they pushed on, as they thought,
to produce a good result from a general principle, and they
really produced the very reverse ; so that they produced, out
of a desire to destroy a monopoly, another and a most intense
monopoly ; and when they wished to promote competition,
they actually annihilated it. Now, the present dock govern-
ment, he maintained, was the best specimen of the unpaid,
voluntary system of government ever yet presented.; and the
system in itself was so complete, so self-executing, that no
door was left open for corruption, or even for malversation
of any kind. Not a single shilling could be raised for dock
rates which had any other outlet, in the way of improvements,
except for the docks themselves, or for the reduction of dock
rates. It was like a ring ; it could never get out of the circle
in any other way whatever; therefore, so far from being a
monopoly, it was the very reverse. There were no exactions;
there was no motive for exactions ; and the public were the
recipients of the advantage in the long run. Nothing went
collaterally into the pocket of anybody. Above all, there
was that security, with regard to integrity, which could be
derived from the most intense competition ; for what could
competition do more than give you the whole advantage of
the matter in question ? Under the offers which they made
there (in the proposals), he could not anticipate the least
harm to the Liverpool public. They would be in possession
of the central part of the town ; they would be the great re-
gulator of the rates—the keepers down of exaction, and, as
it were, the great model by which every other establishment
must regulate itself. They would, too, have the dock ware-
houses, and there he admitted there could be no rivalship.
They had observed, too, at the end of the proposals, that " if
the committee were to support further concessions," &c.
(See above.) Unquestionably, if they did not get their bill,
it would become the duty of the trustees to oppose others
getting advantages which they had not, and an advantage that
would not provide anything for the security of the bondhol-
ders, which it was the bounden duty of the trustees to take
especial care of. He had observed that the concessions which
the deputation had been under the necessity of making, had
resulted from necessity, and that they had gone to the very
verge when they went to equality in the Dock Committee.
Beyond that, they certainly could not go without compro-
mising or throwing away the best interests of the community.
He never could anticipate anything from the ascendancy of
the ratepayers in the Dock Committee less than the ultimate
seizing hold of, for their private benefit, the great advantages
of the docks and warehouses, which ought to go to the pub-
lic, to promote the welfare of the whole community of Liver-
pool. He did believe that the whole advantage would depend
on the Dock Committee having the management of the ware-
houses in their handi. Now, he could not conceive how any
member of that council, after voting for giving the majority
to the rate-payers. could look their constituents in the face.
To do anything which would diminish the power and influ-
ence of that council, was positively to disfranchise the con-
stituency of Liverpool, because that would be to take away
in detail the great materials for municipal good government,
and lessening the inducement for men of the highest orders
to enter into the council. He moved that the proposals and
determinations of the Dock Committee, with respect to the
bill now before parliament, be confirmed.
Mr. CURRIE seconded the motion. He said that the
Finance Committee had given their serious and undivided at-
tention to the important subjects involved in the proposals ;
and, though they had declined coining to any resolution on
them, they had made up their minds that, under the circum-
stances, the course proposed was the best that could be
adopted. The Dock Committee knew, from past experience,
that whenever the time arrived that the dock trustees went
before parliament, there were persons prepared to follow
them, as they had a right to do, to obtain privileges which
they did not then possess. With regard to the claim of the
two docks to the south of the town, it was felt to be most in-
vidious for a public body to oppose gentlemen who were
coming forward to make the most of their property; and,
although a large sum of money had been lent, under the
sanction. of acts of parliament, to the dock trustees, and al-
though it was wrong to do anything inconsistent with the
most perfect security of the bondholders, yet, if it could be
shown that measures could be taken by which the security of
the bondholders could be maintained, he could see no im-
impropriety in the concessions proposed. If that security
could not be given, it was their duty not to proceed with the
bill. But he was sure that. the claimants of exemption were
all willing to give the most perfect security to the present
bondholders, and he could not have consented to the propo-
sals until that perfect security had been given. With respect
to the alteration of the constitution of the Dock Committee,
it appeared to him that, theoretically speaking, the rate-
payers were not the parties who had of themselves a positive
right to be members of the committee, inasmuch as a great
part of the rate-payers were not principals, but merely agents,
and that the money they disbursed with one hand they re-
eiaavi_tied with
lea ythet
hother.
people T I
in
ny
relationstoo d i n
toa the different
goverment, position
witht
o
conceded. n
dli or equality
was held
alltnlre.
et
respect to the payment of taxes. He thought, however, that
a eu
that, 1a t ,Tihne rr
ae atseorp
payers
fairnessra ha
d
manifestlycould be a de-
manded
interest to reduce the rates of charge to a lower degree
than would be to the benefit of the permanent inhabitants of
the town, or to the interest of the bondholders, and while
they had a sufficient number to prevent mismanagement,'
they ought
Aldermanoughttobe EsatisAfineLde.
Mr.
thoug t
Ih
Navtais thatif hadhe
deelviveerrhedeaornd
a weak speech from Mr. Evans,
the present occasion. He wondered would have been
theses id ift the bill ll
wouldhad beenhapp
happen
introduced o
Everybody,ce vv
o ther
e et
eerll
indeed, ]tad pre-
dicted ait yt
te thaty
dieted them ; for it was an eau matter th
f"
would have to concede these privileges to the u
and an alteration in the constitution of
the sotltrosir.n s,
and he,
could not help wondering what would have been the
conduct
of the council if the truth of those predictions could have
been made apparent to them. Ile very much questioned
whether the gentlemen who had the bill on hand would not
have said, " Oh, we could not listen to such concessions, it
is true—quite impossible. Nevertheless, they had now
found it quite impossible to get their bill without. Mr.
Evans, in his extremely.elaborate speech, had made out a
case against himself ; for he had made out the rate-payers to
be jobbers, described them as being under no restraint, as
having peculiar views of their own, as not possessing the
high-mindedness of the council ; and yet lie was going to in-
crease their number in the Dock Committee ! As to talking
about a political interest, why, there was a political interest,
and he was not ashamed to avow it. Was.any man more
anxious than he (Mr. Evans) to have on the council good,
right, staunch radicals ? And why ? For the patronage, the
power that it would give them, of course ; and it was in vain
to talk that it did not give them power and a certain degree