The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1841-08-06 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS

The Town Council held theirperiodical meeting on Wed-
nesday. The Major presided.

PUBLIC • PARKS

The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK having read the proceedings,
resolutions, and reports of the Finance Committee, compris-
ing resolutions on the reference to them of the report of the
Parks Committee as regards financial considerations, and
their recommendation of the grant of the reversion of the
land in Colquitt-street, to the Royal Institution ;
Mr. CASE moved their confirmation, and in doing so said,
that the following donations having been omitted on a for-
mer occasion, were now introduced in the proceedings with
the view of their being discharged, because, until they
received the confirmation of the council, they could not be
paid :—The Royal Institution, £lOO ; the North and South
Dispensaries, £105; the Northern Hospital, £100; the
Refuge for the, Destitute, £25; and the-Botanic Garden,
£5O.

Mr. SiNnaAct' said he had not risen for the purpose of
Opposing the motion of Mr. Case, but merely to oppose the
confirmation of that part of the proceedings which referred
to the formation of public parks. He wished, in the first
place, to have that particular part of the proceedings read
again.

The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read it accordingly. It was
as follows :

" They deemed it their duty not to bold out the expecta-
tion of a report favourable to so large an outlay, and the
consequent great charge of interest against any surplus in-
come of the corporation."
Mr. SANDBACII then proceeded tosay, that in compliance
witn the motion given at the last council he would take the
liberty of going into detail upon this subject, and requesting
the attention of the members of council to the grounds upon
which he invited them to refuse their confirmation of the
part of the proceedings in question. He felt that the ques-
tion to be decided was, whether there should be parks or
not, and if the question why there should be parks were
satisfactorily answered in the affirmative, then he contended
that the difficulties about the money would disappear. He
would, therefore, proceed to that part of the subject at once.
(Hear, hear.) The evils which arise from the crowded state
of populous towns were recognised and admitted on all
hands. Liverpool had, unfortunately been held up to parlia-
ment as particularly destitute of the usual means of remedying
them. In the report before parliament it had been held up
as a town most distinguished for having numbers of families
in one room, without the usual means of ventilation,
and so forth. The evils which followed from this state of
society were so extensive in their ramifications, and went
on increasing as the population increased, with such intensity,
that it had become apparent to all that some remedy should
be devised. In other towns steps had been taken. In Li-
verpool steps had also been taken. The health of the town
had recommended various things for this express purpose,
but if they took into consideration the crowded state of the
population, it would be found that the means suggested were
quite insufficient to provide a remedy. Deprived of the ne-
cessary conveniences for securing cleanliness, the people be-
came gradually demoralised. When both sexes were crowded
together in one room, the evils consequent thereupon could
not be relieved by the most effective drainage which could be
supplied, neither could it be relieved by cleansing the town.
or supplying conveniences, or ordinary ventilation. If they
could supply the town ventilation according to Dr. Reid's
plan, some thing might be done towards their amelioration,
but the ordinary means were insufficient to remedy the evils
of living in a crowded state. He would not detain them by
attempting to trace the evils which arose from the impurity
of air consequent on a large body of persons confined in a
small space. It would occur to every one what the natural
remedy'consisted of—namely, a large quantity of air, and a
large open space for the inhabitants to resort to when they
were oppressed with the heat and crowd of their narrow
streets. Nothing less than a large open space could afford
an adequate remedy for the evil. He did not say that the
space at:present proposed for them would be sufficient. On
the contrary he believed much more would be necessary, but
in deference to the spirit of the age, which required every
thing to be cheap, he had been obliged to bring it into what
appeared to be an attainable price. There was only one
gentleman in the council who had stood forward as the cham-
pion against the formation of parks with definite objections.
He meant Mr. Evans-. After stating three objections which
he alleged had been made by that gentleman, Mr. Sandbach
proceeded to say that he thought there would be no difficulty
in finding the necessary money if the council would favour
the object. He submitted that the council should be called
upon to come to a formal vote on the subject. Personally it
was of no difference to him how they decided, but he should
be sorry to see Liverpool left behind, and other towns taking
the lead in great improvements such as that proposed. He
wished the council to understand that the essential value of
the park in his eyes, consisted in the open space, because he
looked upon the ornamental and all the rest of it as mere ac-
cessories necessary to complete the design. Mr. Proctor
had Made a remark calculated to frighten the council from
entertaining the project, for upon the former day he had
asked the members whether they were aware that they were
thereby incurring the expense of £300,000, whereas, the ut-
most amount of it would be about £218,000, calculating the
original outlay and the interest, &c, for a period of seventy-
five years, Mr. Sandbach concluded by proposing the follow-
ing amendment :

That the proceedings of the Finance Committee be con-
firmed, with the exception of that part of their resolution on
financial considerations relative to the report of the Parks
Committee, in which the Finance Committee declare that
they deem it their duty not to hold out the expectation of a
report favourable to so large an outlay, and the consequent
great charge of interest against any surplus income of the
corporation."
Mr. WOOLLRIGHT seconded the amendment.

Mr. HODGSON thought they ought to have the report of
the committee, which they promised to submit at the end of
the month, before the subject was taken farther into con-
sideration. He thought it was incumbent upon the council
to wait until that report had been in the first place submitted.
If unhappily they could not remove the difficulties appre-
hended, he thought the importance of the subject was so great
and the advantages so clear, that they would then be called
upon to see what other means of obtaining the desired object
could be devised. He was not at all prepared to think that
they had been wrought into such a state of difficulty as that
they could not afford to do something towards ornamenting
and improving the habits of the great population of Liver-
pool, the second population in the empire. He confessed
himself a decided advocate for public parks, in consequence
of having seen St. James's-park in Londoh, where all classes
of society mingled together in harmony. Government had
contributed largely towards the erection of a park at the east
end of London. Whether the ministry had an eye, at the
time they made the contribution, to Lord John's return or
not, he was unable to say—(hear, and a laugh)—but he ap-
proved of such places of recreation, and would support the
project in the present instance. He thought that application
might be made to Lord John Russell for £lOO,OOO, in case
their fluids should happen to be exhausted ; but first of all he
wished to have the report of. the Finance Committee, in
order to see whether any and what difficulties attached to the
accomplishment of the purpose.
Mr. COOPER said, that so far as he was concerned he was
also an advocate for the parks, but he agreed with Mr. Hodg-
son that they ought to have the report of the committee on
the subject before they proceeded further. He felt himself
indebted to Alderman Evans for having brought forward his
project regarding playgrounds, and before they agreed to
make so large an outlay as that necessary for making parks,
he thought they ought to be made acquainted with the state
of the corporation funds. At the same time, notwithstand-
ing the price of the land, he thought it would turn out to be
one of the best purchases ever made by the corporation.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES said the question was not whether
they ought to have parks or not, but whether the corporation
had the power of making the purchase. He believed the
fact to be that their bonded debt had increased by £70,000
since the year 1836, and he would venture to say, with re-
gard to their having any surplus income, that it was alto-
gether a matter of delusion. (Hear.) They had never yet
bad a surplus capital, but even if they had the municipal act a
rendered it quite incompetent for them to entertain such
project as the present. They had been told a great deal
about the unhealthiness of the town, but he believed the
assertion was not capable of being properly substantiated. He
believed that the average amount of mortality in the year, in-
cluding the number of sailors and foreigners who died in the
port, did not exceed one in forty. Mr. Holmes concluded
calculation,
by entering into a which showed, that if the cost
of these parks is taken at £50,000, that sum, with the cost
of keepin.7 these parks in order, taken at compoundinterest,
would amount to above two and a half millions in seventy-
five
years ; and if the cost be taken at £lOO,OOO, then, in
seventy-five years the cost, with interest and compound
interest, would be four and a half millions.
M. PLATT asked what would be the corresponding ad-
vantage? .
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES replied that he could see no advan-
tage, except to enable gentlemen's carriages to be driven
along the avenues. He believed there were few towns more
advantageously situated than Liverpool was, and though it
had been said that numbers of persons were crowded together
in single houses, he believed that Liverpool was not singular
in that respect, for in New York from twenty to thirty people
were to be seen crowded in one room, and in Dublin from
sixtrto seventy individuals in one house. But, in arguing
this question, he went entirely upon the ground that, ac-
cording to the municipal act, the subject could not be enter-
tained ; that they possessed no surplus to make the purchase,
and, therefore, that they could not do what was proposed
without obtaining a grant of money from the lords of the
treasury. If, indeed, the government came forward with a
grant, he had no objection to see the corporation take up the
subject warmly, and he thought they possessed the same
right to apply to government for aid in this matter that the
People belonging to the east end of London possessed. For
the present, however, the corporation had many projects of
its own, one of which was the establishment of schools in
every ward ; and, therefore, he was of opinion that they
ought not to entertain the present subject until the Finance
Committee were in a position to say that they had sufficient
funds for the purpose in hand, not otherwise wanted. (Hear.)
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE believed the committee had a sur-
plus income, and that if such an income did not exist the
Finance Committee would not have come forward that day
to vote £lOO to some of the charities of the town. But he
thought it would be wrong to hold out a hope to the public
that they could entertain the subject of parks either now or
soon. It would be some years before it could be enter-
tained. He was not hostile to parks, and he thought they
might join the parish in an application to government to have
the project carried into effect, but it would be holding out a
hope which never could be realised if they were to say that
they could soon carry it into effect themselves.
Mr. AIKIN thought it was only wasting the time of the
council to proceed with the discussion of the subject pre-
vious to the bringing up of the report. When that report
had been laid on the table lie should take the liberty of
going into the general question, in order to answer some of
the statements and unjust insinuations which had been thrown
out.
Mr. YATES asked whether the mention made of the parks
in the proceedings of the Finance Committee might be taken
as the final condemnation of the project ?
Mr. CASE replied.—The committee had no power to con-
demn it. Their province was limited to financial consider-
ations, and those only. The report merely confirmed what
had been stated by himself at the last meeting, that it would
be impossible to' bring forward a correct account of the
finances until the finance year terminated.. In 1839 and
1840, there had been a surplus income of 140,000 ;butout
of the surplus, the interest of the money to be expended on
the Parkis.was to be raised. With regard to thereat
draifhisienughyof.
the money itself, probably there would be no g
they were
but what the committee wished to know was,
to make out the £4,000 interest ; because theyhobwelievveedr
that
they should not have a surplus income sufficient to co
£4,000 a-year.
Mr. YATES proceeded at great length to • support the
amendment. It had been intimated, he said,
on a former
occasion that there would be a difficulty in raising £20,000
for the project from the public, but he had great confidence
in what the public would do. Mr. John Heywood, for in-
stance, had offered £l,OOO, and if nineteen other gentlemen
would only follow his example—(a laugh)—the requisite sum
would soon be obtained. And it would do them good to
contribute thus munificently; for, though they might part
with some of their luxuries to make the sacrifice, they would
receive a large remuneration in that noblest enjoyment of
the heart which arose from doing good. He could not be-
lieve it would be said of Liverpool, that it had refused to give
£20,000 towards the object, particularly when he had seen
what had been done by Mr. Strutt, of Derby, where he had
been delighted to observe an arboretum raised at that gen-
tleman's expense, which reflected as great credit on his taste
as it did on his generosity. With regard to the financial
matters of the corporation, there would be no great difficulty
in carrying the project into effect. The sum required would
be £so,i i t, the interest on which, at four per cent., would
be £2, t i i ; and he thought he could point our a source from

which this £20,000 could be raised by wise economy in the
expense of the Town-hall establishment. He meant, by
curtailing, in some degree, the civ:c banquets they were in the
habit of enjoying there. (Great laughter.) It might create a
smile, but nevertheless he thought it would be very proper to
curtail them. (Renewed laughter.) He thought the mayor's
entertainments useful, for he had himself enjoyed the pl ,a-
sure of seeing people there whom he seldom met elsewhere ;
they were useful also in bringing men of all parties together,
and in tending to allay those religious animosities which were
the bane of the present day. If the money happened not
to be wanted, he would say that it was wise of the corpora-
tion to I,eep the dinners up.
Mr. Antm—ls there anything about the mayor's dinners
in the paper? (Laughter.)

The ffimtort.—NO.
Mr. EARLE.—We shall be here until four o'clock in the
morning about these dinners. (Great laughter.)
The MAYoa.—Perhaps you would condense your observa-
tions, sir.
Mr. YATES proceeded. With regard to the Mayor's car-
riage he had a word to say ; for he had put that down also
as an item in the account. (Roars of laughter.) He asked
whether it would not do his worship more good to walk than
to ride ; and if he knew him aright, he thought the mayor
would rather entertain his private friends out of his private
purse than out of that of the public. (Continued roars of
laughter.) At all events, he (Mr. Yates) thought it would
be wise so to do ; for when matters of this kind came in con-
tact with the enjoyment and improvement of all classes of
society, he thought they ought never to be entertained.
Therefore, that they could pay the £2OOO interest was, he
he conceived, quite clear.
Mr. EARLE.—Aye ! by putting the mayor's coach in
pawn. . (Great laughter.)
Mr. YATES, after descanting at some length upon the im-
portance of Liverpool, and the great increase of the borough
population, proceeded to remark upon the advantages to be
realised by the establishment of public parks. He said there
was no music so sweet as the music of the lark, and no air so
sweet as the air of heaven. In the cellars the light of hea-
ven scarcely struggled, and the pure breath of heaven never
entered the house, and it was necessary to produce induce-
ment to draw the people out of their wretched abodes. He
was proceeding at much further length, in this strain, amidst
considerable noise and laughter, until at last,
The MAYOR said he was sorry to interrupt him, but he
was going into details which were then unnecessary, as the
question would come before the council when the Finance
Committee made their report.
Mr. EARLE said, that in order to save the council from
such inflictions as the one under which they had been just
labouring, it would be a good rule to adopt that no gentleman
who came there to deliver a set speech should be allowed
morethan teri minutes fol• the liurpose. (Hear,' and laugh-
ter.) There were so many who wished to spin a yarn an
hour long, that those who desired to say only a few words
never got the opportunity to do so. (Hear, hear, and con-
tinued laughter.)
Mr. EvaNs said the question as to whether they were to
have a park had been asked. His reply was, they were to
have a park on certain conditions, and they were not to have
it unless those conditions were complied with. The most
material part of all was the whereabouts. If it was to answer
the purposes of a park, he maintained that it ought to be in
the proxiMity of the great masses of the population. The
proposed park would, in his opinion, be altogether inadequate
to the requisite purposes.
The council then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it. 27
The amendment was consequently lost. The following
gentlemen voted in the division :
For the amendment--Messrs. Sandbach, Woollright,
Priestley. Yates, Toulmin, Bushell, Slater, Jordan, Platt,
A. Smith, junior, J. Hornby, and Earle.
Against it—Messrs. J. Holmes, I. Holmes, Case, Cope-
land, H. Holmes, Mellor, Sands, Aikin, Bright; Robinson,
Cooper, Wood, Birkett, Procter, Parker, J. Smith, G. 11.
Lawrence, M`Kee, Mather, Harbord, T. Holt, Freme, Sheil,
Evatis, Moon, C. 11. Jones, and the Mayor.
Mr. StrEIL said, that in order to bring the council to a de-
cision on the question, he begged to propose the following.
amendment :—" That the proceedings of the Finance Commit-
tee be confirmed, with the exception of what refers to the
park ;_ and that, it being the opinion of this council that it is
not advisable to purchase the land pointed out by the Parks
Committee, the Finance Committee need not make any fur-
ther report upon that subject."

. .
Mr. AIKIN seconded tilt amendment.
Mr. EARL opposed it.
The council divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it 22
The amendment was consequently lost. Tue following
gentlemen voted in the division :
For the amendment—Messrs. J. Holmes, I. Holmes,
Case, Copeland, H. Holmes, Mellor, Aikin, Robinson,
Wood, Birkett, Kilshaw, Parker, J. Smith, G. H. Law-
rence, M'Kee, Freme, Sheil, and Evans.
Against it—Messrs. Sandbach, Sands, Woollright, Bright,
Priestley, Yates, Toulmin, Cooper, Bushell, Procter, Slater,
Jordan, Platt, A. Smith. jun., Mather, Harbord, J. Hornby,
T. Holt, Earle, Moon, C. H. Jones, and the Mayor.
Mr. PROCTER was proceeding to propose another amend-
ment, to the effect that application be made to parliament
for a grant, but withdrew it on being informed that it was a
substantive motion. The original resolution was then de-
clared to have been carried.