The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-02-04 00:00:00

Iniptrial pariiaintnt.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—THURSDAY,
The House of 'Lords did not sit to-day.

ROUSE OF COMMONS.—THURSDAY.
A ilolber of petitions were presented against any further
grant to Maynooth College, in favour of securities for pre-
serving unimpaired the Protestant religion, as by law esta-
blished, for church extension, and on other subjects.
Mr. DAaBY and Sir E. SUGDEN postponed their motions
respecting the Messrs. Hansard and the sheriffs.

ADJOURNED DEBATE.—WANT OP CONFIDENCE IN
MINISTERS.,
Lord POWERSCOURT said the speeches last night must
have convinced her Majesty's government of the truth of
the old adage, " that it was comparatively easy for a man to
defend himself against his enemies, but that it required
supernatural aid to guard him against his friends." (Hear,
hear, and laughter from the oppositions) Of all the speeches
which had been delivertsi spun this -debate, none were more
calculated to injure the governmeut than the •two prihcipal
speeches on their side of the house—the speeches of ' the
noble lord (Howick) and of the right hon. gentleman. the
new secretary at war (Mr. Macaulay). if the noble lord
were in his place, he (Lord P.) would congratulate him upon
the open and manly manner in which he had avowed his
reasons for resigning his post in the government—reasons,
not fronfany personal motive, or from disappointed ambition,
but on strong public grounds—(hear, hear)—and he might
congratulate gentlemen opposite on the support of the noble
lord, coupled, as it had been, with a speech which must
inevitably injhre them most deeply. With regard to the
other speech to which he alluded, he must say that it was a
new thing, and, in his opinion, a most unpopular thing, for
a member of the cabinet to come down to. that house, and
boldly and openly declare that he upheld and admired that
system of agitation to which the country owed all the evils
it was now labouring under. (Cheers.) He thought it was
a new thing, and altogether an unprecedented thing, for a
cabinet minister to conic down to the house and speak in
terms of disparagement of the high and honourable office
of a privy councillor, in terms which expressed that that high
and honourable office visas merely an empty name, and a nominal
title of distinction. Itappeared to him to be a new and anotna-
lousthing for a cabinet minister to risein his place in parliament
ostensibly for the purpose of answeriog a number of serious
charges brought against the administration of which he was a
member, by. the. risilit hon.. baronet the member for Pem-
broke, and instead of alluding in the most distant manner—
(renewed cheering)—sto any one of these charges, to fly off and -
talk about the rethrrnation—about s6the nondescript animal,
half roundhead, half cavalier—about the times of Milton and
Raleigh, and fifty other things, which had no morel() do
with the matter in hand than if he had talked of the sudden
death of King Rufus, and entertained the house with d pane-
gyric upon his heroic deeds. (Cries of Hear.") He (Lord
Powerscourt) thought the speech evidently well digested—
(cheers from the opposition)—concluded in a very odd and
peculiar manner. If he saw any resemblance to any hero, it
.was the ancient Roman, who, as long as he found hostile
weapons against him, defended himself with great bravery,
but when he found a mortal blow had been inflicted by a
friend, breathed out those memorable wads, " et to Brute !"
He believed he spoke the sentiments of the great consti-
tuency that he represented when he stated that the present
state of the country required a strong government—a govern-
ment which would unite mon of education, and the best
wishes of both houses of parliament—a government com-
posed of men, who, by their talent, character, and influence
would be enabled to carry on the affairs of the Government
with success. At the commencement of the debate he
thought no individual on the other side of the house would
have had the hardihood to assert that the present Govern-
. ment was entitled to that designation. He was satisfied that
a weaker or a more inefficient government never presided
over the destinies of a great nation than the present. It could
not be denied that the voluntary principle was the principle
on which the Government meant to act, but they did not
think the time had yet arrived when they could declare the
extreme limits to which they meant to carry their views.
He knew there were yet some of their supporters who de-
clared an adhesion to the protestant establishments of the
country, but that adhesion was given in such a manner, so
sleepy were they in their support, that they were more calcu-
lated to paralyse their energies than to advance the sacred
cause, which they declared their anxiety to struggle for; with
regard to the -Church, he could not help adverting to the
policy which the Government had pursued ; he thought every
effort they made to what they called submission was no-
thing more or less thali a surrender of those sacred rights
to the enemies of the church. He knew full well that the
large and thinking portion of the people outside that house
would not suffer a continuance of such a government; there
was also a numerous and highly respectable party in that
house, who were perfectly free from any kind of bigotry
and prejudice, these, backed by the stronger body outside
of these walls, would form a phalanx so powerful that it
would be impossible for the ministers to retain their place.
(Hear.) He was ready to admit that they cheerfully ab-
stained from all outward expressions of dislike to the church,
but they also abstained from all expressions in its favour,
and did not hesitate to give the party to which he had alluded
all the increased weight. of their expressive silence, because
if they expressed openly their adhesion to that church, they
would run the risk of offending that party by which they were
supported, and if they would insert the word protestant. into
any of their state documents they would offend the ears of
that numerous body who, if they were sincere disciples of
the religion which they professed, must ardently desire the
abolition of protestantism. (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.)
The voice of public opinion called for men to assume the
reins of government, who would notbe ashamed to announce
their principles of religion, who would truckle not to any
party, but who would manfully assert in a straight forward
manner the principles of their policy—a party who would not
stand upon the breadth of court favour alone—not upon party
claims alone—but would rest their claims upon the public
coatidence on their sound opinions and principles. This was
the policy which they had pursued with regard to the church
which they were afraid to attack, but he considered their
conduct in state affairs were even more culpable. Under the'
names of forbearance and generosity they had displayed a
despicable and culpable weakness. He would not allude,.
except in passing, to the speech of the noble lord at Liver-
pool, or to that of the Attorney-General at Edinburgh, which
had been so ably commented upon last night. He should
say, however, that it was unworthy and undignified on the
part of the ministers of the crown to go in imitation of an
hat. gentleman opposite, on an agitating tour through the
counti-y. There was one part of the speech of the noble lord
which he would allude to—that was, his boast of.a paltry
economy in the secret service money. He wondered whether
the noble lord, when he made that boast contemhlated his
coming to the house a hi; .c extravagant demand with which
he came down a fes. hsslsts ago? lie wondered whether it
ever struck him, When he boasted of that paltry economy,
that a judicious expenditure of that money might have sated
the lives of many of those who fell at Newport, by obtain-
ing for him a timely notice of the danger which was intended.
Mr. Fox Ma ehE defended the speech of Mr. Macauley,
and said, the opinions of the public as to the conduct of the
ministry had to be decided out of doors, and to that quarter
he was ready to defer. The noble lord could not produce
one single measure which the government had ever, intro-
duced which tended to injure the church ; but they could
produce many measures passed by that house through her
majesty's present government on the subject of the church,
every one of which tended to confirm and strengthen the
principles on which it was founded in the hearts of the people
Mr. LIDDELL attacked the ministers on their finances.

Captain PECHELL defended them on their exercise of
naval patronage, and assailed a speech lately delivered by the
Rev. Mr. Anderson, at Brighton.
Mr. LASCELLES refuted the charge of disunion which had
been preferred against the tories, and rebuked Mr. Macauley
for having chosen such a crisis as the present for the utter-
ance °Len eulogy on agitation.
Mr. HANDLEY, though professing himself friendly to the
existing corn law, yet commended the ministers for leaving
the question an open one.
Sir A. DALRYMPLE vindicated the speech of Mr. Anderson.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT successfully ridiculed the childish
notion that the tories desire to repeal. the Roman Catholic
relief bill ; and exposed the inconsistency of Mr. Handley,
who was mot only supporting a government very generally
opposed to his own opinions on the corn laws, but had ea-
gerly canvassed for the new solicitor-general, one of the
most inveterate enemies of that code. Any hope of disunion
among the conservatives would meet, he said, with signal
disappointment. They were a compact phalanx, looking
with the utmost confidence to their leader ; to whom, indeed,
Lord Howick also must shortly accede, unless he should
continue to think that the government, though too discredi-
table for him to belong to, was not too discreditable for him
to support.
Mr. WARD explained the reasons why, after having so
often expressed opinions unfavourable to the ministry, he
was now about to aid them with his vote. The expectation
of a more radical Policy, which was the motive with the con-
servatives to oppose the government, was with him the mo-
tive to support it. Last year he would have voted against
ministers ; but ministers and himself had found " a middle
point" on which they could agree. The point was progres-
sive reform—not such as Lord Howick advocated, which was
merely nominal, but a real reform. Me principle of open
questions had been conceded by Lord John Russell, and an
open question had really become a necessary step in every
great change. The masses would not be conciliated, and ra-
dicalism was at length placed in a favourable position. The
most eloquent advocate of the ballot had been brought into
the cabinet; and these were sufficient inducements to the
radicals to give their confidence to the ministers.
Lord STANLEY then rose, and spoke for upwards of are
hour and a half with great vigour and effect. It had been
asked, he said, why this motion had not been made in some
former year. It was because the leading members of the
party had felt that it did not become them to displace a mi-
nistry,'unless they had a prospect of becoming able to con-
duct a government themselves. But it was now become
known from the people, and even from one of the late mi-
nisters, (Lord Howick), that the most respectable sup-
porters of the present cabinet were rapidly falling off from
them, and that the eyes of the country were opening. But,
whether the present battle should be won or lost—and he knew
that this division would be against him—the result would not
produce the slightest variation in the course of the great con-
servative body. Fail as often as they might, they would still
watch and controul the government, still keep the fixed line of
their duty as a great united party, still defend the ministers
when in the right
against their mischievous allies, and still
defeat those ministerial measures which would he detrimental
to the country. The •
w ugs might continue to possess the
places of the government, but its authority would be wielded
by the tories. Parties would now stand unmasked before the
people, who would know what were the connexions, and
what the expectations, by which the government were kept in
power. They were supported now by men who sa "We
don.t approve them, but we use them . because push
them onward for our own purposes:, The most 1:e can
important
questions now likely to arise were those relating to tities l
of bread, the mode of exercising the elective'franchisen,pandy
the extent to which that franchise should be distributed. On
subjects of such importance the principles of the government
should be known to members before they pledged themselves
to its support. Yet, who could understand the sentiments of
these ministers on the corn-laws ? Each had a separate
opinion—the gentleman who had last acceded to the cabinet
i
being a known stickler for that free trade n corn which the
head of the administration had characterised as the maddest
of all conceivable speculations. Of the. ballot the same new-
comer was a vehement advocate; while the leader of the
House of Commons declared it to be dangerous and uncon-
stitutional. If it were asked as to extension of franchise,
what was to be the limit, the answer "was " progressive re-
form ;" which seemed to mean all that every body fancied.
Lord Howick, however, had objected to progressive reform
so construed. That noble lord was not a man to be startled
at a tolerably large measure of reform ;. but the new doctrine
was too much even for him, and he refused to go further.
It was impossible to imagine' a government less deserving of
confidence than one where all shades of opinion were admit-
ted, but no man was found who held tip his hand and said,
" Thus far will I go, and no further."
At the conclusion of Lord Stanley's powerful address, the
debate was again adjourned, to be resumed the next evening.
The house adjourned at a quarter-past twelve o'clock.

IIOUSE OF LORDS.---FRIDAY.
Lord BROLIOHi.:.i ask'ed the Lord Chancellor if he were
prepared to make, such an alteration in the objectionable
clause of Prince Albert's
ent unpleasant discussions. Naturalization Bill as would pre-
The Lord CHANCELLOR replied, that he,:pliould Propose
that the clause be a tered so as to give her 'Majesty the power
to allow the Prince to take precedence
heir apparent to the throne. . .
Lord fixouou bald, "but io.cop-4ue...0n1y during the
life of her Majesty?"

The Lord CHANCELLOR replied—" I am nol prepared to
go farther."

- It having been agreed that the discussion on the measure
should be taken in committee, the bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next.
Lord NORMANBY stated, in answer to a question from the
Bishop. of Exeter, that Mr. Pare, the superintendent-
registrar of births, &c., at Birmingham, had acted as vice-
president of a Socialist society from May 1838, to May, 1839,
but that since June last he had ceased to have any connexion
with the society. Lord Nornianby, at the same time, at-
tempted a vindication of Mr. Pare, and of the doctrines of
the Socialists, which, though founded on the unexceptionable
testimony of Mr. Pare himself, was unmercifully exposed by
the Bishop of Exeter. .

Lord LONDONDERRY asked if the Ministers had any in-
formation.respecting the
.military occupation of Minorca by
France, or of the establishment there of naval and military
:hospitals?

Lord MELBOURNE, who was scarcely audible in the gal-
lery, could give no information on the subject, except that he
understood they were possessed of some small island off
Minorca, which was principally. used as a depbt for coals.
Lord RIPON wished to' know how long they had had oc-
cupation of that island?
. -
Lord CLARENDON said that some of the papers were con-
fidential, but, as they had passed through his hands, he
could assure his noble friend that they were perfectly
satisfactory. So far as he (the Earl of Clarendon) was con
cerned, he should be very glad that they should be produced.
Lord LYNDHURST.—That will be the better course, and
then we can judge for ourselves whether they. are satisfac-
tory or not. •

Lord COLCHESTER gave notice, that on Monday be will
move that all the papers connected with the subject be laid
upon the table.

Lord LONDONDIVIRY gave notice, that on Thesday Se'n-
night he will move for copies of any communications that
may have passed between her Majesty's Government and the
Spanish Government relative to the convention of Bergara.
The House adjourned' till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRIDAY.

The House of Commons was almost exclusively occupied
with the adjourned debate on Sir John Y. Buller's motion.
It was begun by
. _ _ _

Lord MORPETH, who misstated most materially, though
no doubt very ingeniously, the argument of his opponents,
as if their great oliection, or, as be called it, their main
staple of attack against the government were, that it is sup-
ported by adherents who go further than the members of the
cabinet ; whereas the real complaint is, that though the mem-
bers of the cabinet have now shown themselves prepared to
go to lengths which the respectable part of their adherents
have always reprobated, those adherents do nevertheless,
most inconsistently, continue to support them. He then
attempted a vindication or-the principle of open questions,
and complimented the opposition on the talents they had
displayed for obstruction.. He entered into various consider-
ations connected with Irish affairs ; and we can give no
clearer specimen of the nature of his views on these subjects
than by recording that, after a large tribute to the abilities
and influence of Mr. O'Connell, the noble lord was actually
bold enough to say that those powers had, on the whole,
been exerted in flavour of order ! He admitted that the
country required a strong government ; but when the oppo-
sition called on the ministry to make way for themselves, he
must ask what means had that party fur forming a govern-
ment likely to be strong ! It was a party of which the mem-
bers differs from each other on a variety of most important
points—on the Roman Catholic bill, on Irish education, even
on corn laws. Since the first notice of this motion there
had been an appeal to several constituencies; and they had
all returned a verdict in favour of the government. Lord
Morpeth seemed to forget that, except in one case, the con-
stituencies which had given this verdict were all selected by
ministers themselves as being the most likely to return whig
members. On the other hand, at Beverley, where the vacancy
was made by the conservatives, a conservative was elected :
and in the instance of Denbighshire (the only case of vacancy
which, happening by death, was independent of arrangement
on either side) the freeholders supported a conservative with
so strong a hand, that his opponent did not venture to abide
the poll. Lord Morpeth concluded with a few set sentences,
in which he told the tories to go on as they had begun, and
rekindle the tires of former bigotry, while the whigs would
rely on the returning sense of the people. (Is not that word
" returning" strangely pregnant with the confession of con-
fidence departed ?)
Mr. Serjeant. JACKSON answered this speech with great
vigour. He explained the causes to which the present com-
parative tranquillity was owing." He inveighed with just in-
dignation against the pusillanimous conduct of ministers to-
wards the member for Dublin, who would be guilty of high
treason should he take a single step towards the pi actical ex.;
ecution of any one of his own seditious doctrines. The
learned Sergeant denied that the Roman Catholics, of whose
physical force the agitator was accustomed to talk so largely,
were available to any such extent for the purposes of insur-
rection : for, to his own knowledge, a large proportion of the
Roman Catholic body were as sound and loyal as any class of
people in the world, and firmly determined to preserve the
connexion of the two countries.

Mr. C. Woon said that he left office on the same grounds
which had been stated on Wednesday night by Lord Howick.
He explained that one of the eight officers, supposed by Sir
James Graham to have been promoted in consequence of
their having stood contested elections at the last dissolution,
had been, in fact, promoted several months before the
contest. Mr Wood vindicated some other of the naval appoint-
ments to which Sir James Graham had objected, and Sir C.
ADAM followed to the same effect.
Mr. MACLEAN, from the Conservative side of the house,
spoke at length against the foreign policy of ministers ; and
then

• Mr. O'CONNELL rose, and delivered his usual quarterly
speech upon Irish affairs. Beginning with himself, he stated
that the office of Chief Baron in Ireland had indeed been
offered to him. but that was when, for a while, he had laid
repeal aside. He had refused the offer, in the fear that he
might, be tempted to deviate from the impartiality which a
judge ought ever to observe. A party now sought to take
the places of the ministers; and what were the principles of
that party ? Much had been heard of disturbances through-
out England and Wales, but that party had suggested no
remedy for them. What would they do I Would they re-
lease Thorogood, and relieve the dissenters from church-
rates? Did they think to prosper by holding out the immut-
ability of the corn laws ? Did they offer any hope of de-
parture from their doctrine of finality in matters of reform !
The operatives. were loudly reminding the legislature that
this doctrine had already produced the most disastrous dis-
affection. He then proceeded to the subject of Ireland, which
under a Tory government could be ruled, he said, only by
force ; and gave his usual passage about " centuries of op-
pression," with this variation, that he this night took credit
for only., six instead of seven. He boasted of her present
tranquility, kid of her temperance societies. He complained
of the attcki'whiah had been made on the Roman Catholic
religion and clergy, in newspapers, in sermons, and in
speeches, particularly by Mr. Bradshaw. It was against
such rneri'as- this that he had said he would bring 500,000
fighting men into the field. He finished with repeal, justice
to Ireland, and a general flourish about his ancestors and
himself.

Mr. Bumastinw said a few words from under the gallery,
Which were not audible at the distance of 20 feet from him.
Sir R. PEEL said, he felt that no gentleman in the house,
however tired he might be of this protracted discussion, and
however anxious to bring the debate to a conclusion, would
not admit that, considering the nature of the motion, and
considering the position in which he stood, he was almost
entitled to claim the indulgence of the house. (Hear, hear.)
He was confident, moreover, if he must detail his opinions
on many of the facts, and if be must vindicate himself from
some accusations, he was confident that, considering the pros
minent place he had been made to occupy throughout this
discussion, he should not be charged with silly vanity or need-
less egotism. (Hear, hear.) Two demands had been made
on the opposite side in the course of the discussion. One of
them, which was made with perfect justice, was, that those
who withdrew their confidence from the present Government
should specify the grounds of their refusal. The other de-
mand was, that those who, from their position, might be re-
garded as the probable successors of the present Government
in the event of its dissolution, should state on what grounds
of public policy- they proposed to conduct the affairs of the
country. (Hear, hear.) The absolute justice of the first de-
mand he admitted ; he felt that it was incumbent upon him
to specify the grounds on which he withheld his confidence
from the present Government. The other demand, that he
should explain.or detail his own views of public policy, he
did not consider equally obligatory on him, but it was a de-
mand which he felt to be reasonable and politic to accede to.
He knew too well the little,value to he placed on professions ;
he had seen too much of magnificent promises out of office,
and of meagre performances in office (hear, hear;) he had
too much experience of solemn engagements entered into for
the purpose of turning out a Government violated when that
object was attained. He had little desire to benefit limself
by this practice; he had little desire to employ conciliatory
' speeches in order to gain the good-will of the other side of the
house ; but he did rejoice at an opportunity of fully and freely
explaining himself. He proceeded in the first instance to a
compliance with the first demand—namely, to specify the
ground upon which, with perfect cordiality, he gave his vote
in favour of the motion of his hon. friend, and recorded his
denial of confidence in the present Government. He with-
held his confidence from theta on every ground upon which
confidence was to be given (hear, hear); he withheld his con-
fidence from them from the results of their public policy ; he
withheld his confidence from them on their own confession
of their incapacity (hear, hear) •, he withheld his confidence -
from them on the testimony. of their most valued friends; be
withheld his confidence from them on account of the consti-
tutional grounds and public principles which they had been
forced to :avow in order to maintain their station. He
would consider first the results of their government, and he
should compare them, not with any remote period, not with
the results of Conservative policy—he should compare them
with the results of a period with which the present Ministers
must be familiar, from the recollection of events in which they
had a share, and from respect towards one by whose counsels
they professed to be led. In 1834 the men under whom they
had carried through -the Reform Bill retired from office,
and Lord Grey gave, on his retiring from office, an account
of the condition in which he left the Government. Let
them compare the testimony of Lord Grey in 1834 with the
results of their policy and with the state in which he (Sir
R. Peel) found the country on the day upon which he was
about to record his denial of confidence in the Government.
Lord Grey said, on the Dth of Ju4, 1834, " With respect to
the internal state of the cOuntry"—now mark the contrast in
every particular—" with respect to the internal state of the
country, let it be borne in mind that we now leave it in im-
proved circumstances tiade in a sound and healthy condi-
tion, the inanufaCitireis generally employed, public credit
improved, the revenue greatly increasing, and all interests in
a better condition; with one single exception—agriculture ;
and even the depression of that in.erest less affects the
tenantry than the landlords, who will be. called on for a re-
duction of rents, to which they must submit. Political and
tradeS' unions have disappeared, and without the application
of any extraordinary powers on the part of government. We
have exerted the ordinary powers of the law with a firm
hand, and the result has been successful." (Hear, hear.)
Such was the testimony borne by Lord Grey, and such the
results of the adthinistration of the government of that noble
lord, in which his noble friend the member for North Lan-
cashire, and his right hon. friend the member for Pem-
broke, had.taken a part. Since then the present government
had had Unlimited Control, except for a period of three or
four months, over the affairs of this country. He called
upon them to render an account of their stewardship, and
to tell him whose fault it was that this country now presented
such a contrast as it did to that of 1831. (Hear, hear.) They
told him that since then, they had effected great public mea-
sures, that reform had been' progressive, that no obstruction
had been sufficient to control the steady march of their pro-
gressive improvements. How came it then that trade in 1840
should be in an unsound and unhealth • condition; that public
credit, instead of being ha proved, should have deteriorated, and
that for months our
took credit for that imprOve.
discount? Agriculture had's
public securitie • should have been at a
indeed improved. Perhaps they
to their manly and consistenT
But how happened it if Lordhe attributed.
improvement, and considered that it was
Greyciaurse it was to_
extin-
guishing political unions, and by
prfolcieaCedodmescrucceeded.in
diam administration of the
laws had suppressed the spirit of
4r:der—how happened it,
if his efforts had been attended w
the present Government had complete sucess, and if
tthoey todhth y
did, in a course of useful reform to an exteanst
former Government had gone, and which could which
haveno
was "throughout the
been anticipated—ansWer him the question, to what was it
owing that this country was now convulsed with political dis-
srubrotrndgintahteioir headsn
reading, and
roerdbeelrlintnh that tdh
insuspiritrrection of
ea
land? (Cheers.) To what (said the right hon, b •
onet)
siiitce the period to which I have referred . have the
principles
which you profess respecting the constitution of the Govern-
ment tended to lead ? The noble lord the member for Nor-