The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1840-01-17 00:00:00

power at present ; for the maximum rate of the bill under
diciission was 6d in the pound ; but the act expressly said it •
was not to exceedfid thereforei-if they levied a rate by vir-
tue of that bill, it might only be the sixteenth part of a
penny, and that would' be sufficient to satisfy all the provi-
sions of that act. If the parish of Liverpool were not to ;
derive any benefits in being eased from taxation, in the name
of goodness, 'of what .advantage had been the municipal
reform ? He considered that the parish of Liverpool had a
right to demand the rescinding, of the measure. At the
vestry meeting which- took place, when the resolutions were
passed to empower the churchwardenato apply for the repeal
of the act in question, there were .certain gentlemen, who,
althongh they did not expressly state that they were autho-
rised:by the dominant party in that council, to say that the
council did not intend to carry the act into effect, yet by'
their language they implied that they were so authorised.
Mr. Holmes concluded with the following motion :—" That
this council concur with the parish of Liverpool, that it is
proper'to apply to parliament for the rescinding- of the act,
thislsibppflarieaatsioreag.tstrdhasllbe easily borough—and that the expense of such
yt
parish."
COOPEk said it was
the'
eorgnene
ebryalt h i .this
opinionco ancil and the Mr.
parish."
out
of doors
that the churchwardens. ad the support of the public in their
endeavours to get the act alluded to rescinded, so far as a
re-
garded Liverpool. It was quite wrong in the council to say
to the community generally, as they were saying, " We are
going to levy sixpence in the pound, and we will tax you
whether you. are agreeable or not." Ile, for one, should de-
cidedly oppose the vesting in the council of any such power;
and lie thought that those individuals who were favourable
to the clause would hesitate in approving of the proposed ap-
plication to Parliament, if they had sat with him and seen
the number of appeals against the payment of the parish
rate. Out of thirty-six thousand persons rated, fourteen
thousand only.had- paid, leaving twenty-two thousand who
had declared themselves paupers and unable to pay. He se-
conded the resolution. . -
Mr. CURRIE remarked that the sentiments of Mr. Cooper
were not to be considered as those of the council, but of Mr.
Cooper himself. The council had never said that they would
tax the public, whether the, public were agreeable or not.
On the contrary, the notice of the Town-clerk was an act of
'forbearanee ; for it Wass never intended to avail themselves- of
the powers conferred by the bill, except in cases when it
would be prudential to de so, and until that time should ar-
rive, the Town-clerk and the council were willing that the
act should lie in abeyance. Why, then, was it attempted to
impress upon the public that the council were disposed to
annoy and oppress them ? He should be sorry that anything
was either said or done to cause a difference between the
corporation, and the parish, for which there was not the
slightest reason. The-very object of the proposed bill was to
obtain what the parish desired, namely, to relieve the coun-
cil from the obligation of levying the rate. •
Mr. WOCLRIGHT said that the select vestry wished to im-
press upon the - public; that 'the :Council, were desirous of
taking from them all that, they could get. Such was not the
case, as was proved by the fact that the council had the
power to levy the £B,OOO which they. themselves paid., The
old corporation had never paid a farthing towards the public
expenses. He could not help feeling, all the time that Mr.
Cooper was speaking. that his observations were addressed,
not to the Mayor, but to the gentlemen who sat opposite to
the Mayor (the reporters.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE:---It is nothing but -an electioneer-
ing trick. ,
Mr. JOHN SMITH observed, that the impression on his
mind had been that the proposed bill was to place the town
in exactly the same position as it had been before the passing
of the recent act. He could assure the council that there
would be a great deal of jealousy if the council obtained the
power intended to be applied for; for the public did not
know how, when obtained, that power would he exercised.
Mr. Alderman Evans admired the modesty of the proposal
made by some gentlemen. .The council were asked to de-
Prive.themselves of the discretionary power, and to pay the
eipense of making a confession of their imbecility. He should
like to contrast the capability of the council to decide on the
subject• of the public interests with thatof the select vestry.
They (the council) were the real representatives of the peo-
ple ; but what were the vestry ? He wished they were under
that organisation which would give to their proceedings that
order and regularity, and that responsibility, which the pub-
lic had a right to claim. The power had got into the hands
of four or five men, many of whom were actuated by a desire
to gain notoriety. Look at their acts ; and if he might judge
of their capability from that, he should allude to their absurd
efforts to put the poor rates on the dock estate. After acts
of that sort, he did not consider that the select vestry could
be said to represent the people ; they were not supposed to
do so in a general way. The fact of lodging the proposed
discretionary poiver in the hands of the council did not at all
.suppose that the power would be abused. The council was
the proper depository of all power. He did not think that
too much power could be given to it, because it was responsi-
ble in every way ; and if the public had anything to complain
of, there was the proper place to seek
.for redress... Brit for
the select vestry to come forward and-ask the representatives
of- the people to denude themselves of any power was not
onlys-le would avow,thesword--impertinence to the council,
but an insult to the Constituencies that sent them there.
Mr. Alderman?SllClL should be sorry
.to• see any of the
public monerexpended in a contest between the corporation
'and the parish.* He should at once vote for the power of
levying to be insthe• select vestry, if they,could by any fair
means be styled the, representatives of the town. As he was
well known to entertain strong views in favour of giving.to
all an equal-participation in the right of protecting themselves
from taxation, and as the present system of electing the select,
vestry was diametrically opposed to those views, he could not"
consent to• place in theshands of the vestry any power .of
which he could deprive them. The system was founded on
the principle that the rich' alone could have a right of levying
taxes. The rich man:might have twenty-four votes, whilst
the poorrman could have but one. For that reason, and. that
alone, he should certainly support the propriety of giving to
the corporation the proposed,power, because they were elected
on a more general principle.
Mr. G. H. LAWansNcis believed that if ever there was a
well-regulated-parish it was that of Liverpool. He thought
it very. hard that, when speaking on this subject, persons
should be taunted with speaking to the press, and foe'elec-
tioneering -purpOS'es; rather thaii from a wish to promote what!
•they conceivedAy he., the, ,gonst,of the tolvh. He thought.,
however, that Alm ~council ilddld not abandon the prin'ti6l6-
ihititi4nseleilirifiithee• did he think thatsthis
.111-usac valt9Asnista)usissiasslo,as by placing ,the power in the
hands of thecouWfor,at ought to recollected, thatit*
ri they had ii.etifis eKcsilieY hitd the power•of levying a bo-
i-ough4atesswlatabsviaalds he supposed, put the matter on the
saws fßotims,,,,-,lytisis these views, he should adhere to the.
town-crerfeS
Bourox was opposed tativing any power to the pa-
rish. Ile staisl thatit,eught also,. to be borne in mind that
although 1...85100n1Y was leviidStlienetual expenditure of the
police, &c: .44-6 cthouaht it,letter that, they
should retain the 'discretionary power of levying a watch-rate,
than, in case of necessity; resort to a borbugh-rate.
- 11 issasy LawituNOS: disclaimed, any etalcurrenee,
the ppinion that. there was an inclination on the part of the.
Connell -to throw burdens upoh the public. He; however,
Couhl‘getino disadvantage in acceding to the proposal of the
Parish. It had been said that the council were the repre-
sentatives of the public, and so they were to a certain extent ;
:but; SiSlesslid not wish to be personal, he should- not.enter
into thatsuhject.
Mr. ,Alderman -EaLE.---Say what you like ; yen can do
st
no ha-tins'-
Mt•AH. LAWRENCE.—Un.der the present municipal act
many persons had no vote at all, though he did not on that
account say that the system of representation was unfair, as
was said in many quarters. He hoped that the corporation
and the parish would not proceed to extremities, for it would
be foolish to waste their money. in litigation. (Cheers and
laughter.).
Mr. Bump- thought that the proposal now made was not
calculated to allay the anxiety which prevailed, and suggested
that a select committee should be appeinted to take the re-
port of the Town-clerk into consideration.
The TOWN-CLERK, in reference to what had been said by
Mr. Woolright, 'stated that there. was now thrown on the
borough fund the sum of £BOOO, to the exoneration of the
parishioners of Liverpool. Until the act of last session,
however, the council had no power to levy that 0000 unless
there was no surplus. The Town-clerk then proceeded to
show what would be the result to the parish if the whole six-
pence in the pound should ever happen to be levied. Six-
pence in the pound, on the rental of Liverpool, would yield
£20,125, which, as the council had heard from Mr. Bolton, •
was less than the actual amount of the watch expenses. s:lf
the amount of the old watch-rate, £Bs27—the additional sum
for better cleansing, £7OO, and the amount to which the.
parish had been relieved from county-rates, £11,500, were
added together, they would produce a total of £20,727; and
if from that were deducted the sum saved to the corporate.
funds by exoneration from the parochial rates, there would
remain £17,227, which, being deducted from the whole sum
yielded by tare levy of sixpence in the pound, would leave a
balance of £2898, which the parish would have to pay. But
so long as the council did not exercise the power of levying,
the parish would remain a gainer by upwards of £BOOO.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES, in reply, said that if he had not fully
made up his mind upon the measure of applying for a com-
plete repeal of the bill then under discussion, what had then
transpired in the council would have caused him to advocate
it. He was happy to find that Mr.• Woolright completely
accorded with him in opinion that there was no surplus fund.
He (Mr. Holmes) contended that there never had been a
surplus fund since the new corporation came into power.
At present this corporation expended from. eight to ten
thousand, pounds per annum more than the old one. (Mr.
Rathbone and Mr. Bolton—" No, no.") He was ready to
prove his assertion from thepnblished docursients; and would
enter upon the subject the first opportunity. It had been
stated that the council had power to levy a borough-rate,* if
the funds were not sufficient. Then why object to • the re-
scinding of thishill ? The select-vestry had been abused in
no measured terms. It was said that they were no repre-
sentatives—that they were merely chosen by four orsfive
individuals; but what was the case of this council? One-
third of the:whole council were merely chosen by two or
three individuals—(Mr. Mellor here rose to call Mr. Holmes
to order. but 'the Mayor decided that he was in order)--and
one-half of those gentlemen were actually the rejected of the
people.
The vote was then taken. The motion of Mr. Holmes
was lost by 39 to 13.
For the motion there were—Councillors D. Hodgson, I.
Holmes,' R. Houghton, W. Preston, J. Barton, J. Cooper,
J. Lawrence, T. Robinson, H. Lawrence, J. N. Wood, It.
Gladstone, R. Johes, jun., and J. Smith. •
Against it—Councillors J. Holmes,--W. Thornhill, H. R.
Sandbach, G. Quayle, T. Case, H. Holmes, J. Mellor, E.
Filcher, T. Bolton, J. WoOlright,'R. Bright, W. Rathbone,
H. Hornby, R. V. Yates, C. Bushel', T. Morecroft, G. H.
Lawrence, T. Coglan, J. S. Leigh, J. Platt, W. M'Kee, F.
Jordan, W. M. Duncan, W. W. Currie, D. Mather; Alder-
men R. Shell, T. Booth, J. Hornby, T. Leathom, G. Holt,
R. Benn, W. Earle, J. Moon, E. Evans, T. B. Barclay, T.
Bulley, T. Holt, E. Harvey ; and the Mayor.
Absent—Councillors B. Frankland, G. Wright, T. Sands,
J. Priestly, W. Lassell, J. Carson, 'l'. Blackburn, R. Rigby,
E. Segar ; Aldermen R. Roskell, C. H. Jones, and W. P.
Freme.
The MAYOR then observed that it would be necessary that
some reply should be made to the select vestry.
Mr. CASE thought that the matter did not seem to be
properly understood by the select vestry, and be suggested
that, in order to effect a complete understanding, and to save
the expense of litigation, a committee should be appointed
to confer with the vestry.
Mr. CURRIE said that as it would be necessary to follow
the matter up, he should move the following resolution :
" That this council, animated by an anxious desire to pro-
mote the utmost harmony and good understanding with the
members of the select vestry, regret that they,cannot concur
with the wish of ;that body that they should relinquish the
power in questiMS; but, with a proper regard to the arrival
-of a period when it .may be necessary to avail themselves of
that power, they utterly -disclaim any present intentionof
doing so, and sincerely hope that such a contingency will
never Occur."
',Akin BOLTON seconded the motion.
Mr. Alderman EVANS could not conceive the use of it,
because the council had already decided the question, and
'left no discretion whatever. He did not want to contend for
the right to be ,arrogant in the matter; but he considered
that the council ought to maintain its own position and its
oss•n slishitys..and he-.did say that this motion was a conces-
sion not consistent,svith the dignity of the council, and alto-
gether uncalled for, and would be absolutely useless in its
effects. It was undertaking to say what they would do in
future.
Mr. Ittiiilos:t did not take the same view of the motion
as Mr.:Evans:did: He thought that it was merely a cour-
teous reply to the, select vestry, and called for by the wish of
the council, as expressed by his good friend Mr. Lawrence,;
-that they should not throw away the public money in law
charges. It was a mere act of courtesy, which, as a public

body, the select vestry were entitled to ; and although that
body should forget what was due to themselves, the council
ought not to forget what was due to their own character.
The TowN-CLERK said it had struck him, on hearing the
resolution of Mr. Currie, that, if it were placed in juxtaposi-
tion with that of the select vestry, it might appear as if the
council were giving up the position which they had taken.
He had, therefore, framed the following :—" Resolved—That
while this council is animated by an anxious desire upon all
occasions to promote the utmost harmony and good under-
standing with the members of the select vestry, they regret
that they cannot concur in the wish of that body that they
should relinquish the power in question ; but with a proper
regard to the possibility of the period arriving when it may
be necessary to avail themselves of the power, they utterly
disclaim any present intention of doing so, and sincerely
hope, as they fully expect, that such contingency will never
occur."
Mr. CURRIE consented to withdraw his motion, and to
move that which had been drawn out by the town-clerk.
Mr. BOLTON seconded it.
Mr. COOPER said that he could not but look upon the
whole proceeding as an attempt to take money out of the
pockets of the parishioners without an act of parliament. If
the council wanted the power of levying a rate, why did they
not go for a borough-rate, by which means the public would
not be called upon to pay without knowing what they had to
pay for.
Mr. BustiELL much regretted that it should go forth to the
public that the interests of the parish were not duly consi-
dered in that room. He considered himself as one of the
representatives of the parish at large, and could not under-
stand how the interests of the corporation and the parish
could be disunited. As one of the representatives of the pa-
rishioners, he should always feel great distrust in acting con-
trary to the opinion of their legal adviser; for although he
entered that chamber prepared to apt on his own opinion,
the opinion of their legal adviser would always ' have great
weight with him ; it ought indeed to be departed from with
great care and caution. Mr. B. concluded with a few obser-
vations on the remarks mad
e by Mr. Alderman Sheil, to
which that gentleman briefly replied.
The motion was then agreed to without opposition, and the
council separated.