The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-06-15 00:00:00

ELECTION PETITIONS.

Sir R. PEEL brought in a bill for amending the laws relating
to the trial of election petitions. He was anxious to bring it
forward for discussion atatuearly hour, when there was a pros-
pect of a larger attendance; but he was in the hands of the
noble lord. The bill was one so far of general interest-as' that
it could not be considered in the light of one brought in by a
private member ,of the house.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had stated to the house, that there were
several bills brought in, not only by the government, but by
private members of the house, which should be considered.
Having already arranged the orders of the day should take
precdence of notices, he was deprived of the power of acceding
- to the proposition now raade'by the right honourable baronet.
Sir ItonEitT PEEL then gave notice, that he should move the
second reading of tne bill on Wednesday week.
MUNICIPAL ConVonATIoNS (IRELAND).-
Lord Johu RUSSELL, iu rising to move the further progresS
of this hill, would say, by way of preface to the motion, that
the house in general would feel it more convenient that the
bill having been gone through committee pro anti with-
out having- been' regularly discussed, that it should be re-
committed, rather than that the discussion should be taken.
upon the bringing up of the report. He therefore moved that
the bill be re-committed.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. O'CONNELL rose- and said : 1 request the indulgence of,
the house, while I attempt to give reasons why this bill should
nut be re-cuinulitted at present. My object in delay is, that I
may have au opportunity of maturing such materials as have
conic into my pussessiou lately; sit that I may be enabled to
shew the hiuise that the proposed plan ought not to be adopted,
esi,ecially with regard to the city of Dublin. I mean to call the
-attention of the house to the particular situation in which the
franchise in that city is placed, and to shew the impossibility
of giving a good municipal franchise to the electors of that
city, unless the house was in possession of more facts than it at
present had knowledge of. When a prospect was held out of
conceding' to the Irish people municipal institutions—when it
was discovered in Ireland that the opposition party in this house
had given up their intentions of destroying municipal corpora-
tions, it was received with unmiugled satisfaction; and the
lurking suspicion which dwelt upon my mind, that it would all
turn out a delusion, did not find place in the breasts of my
countrymen. In order to understand the sentiment that thus
prevails, the house-ought distinctly to know what it is the peo-
ple of Ireland require in this respect. They know Scotland has
got a corporate reform bill upon the parliamentary franchise.
They know that England has got a municipal reform bill under
another franchise. In England and Scotland the parliamentary
franchise is different. In England it depends oh the rating of
the party to the poor. Each requires residence. The residence
is required •to be longer in England than in Scotland. The
English Pour-law Bill is coupled with the necessity of triennial
residence, and, payment of rates, previous to the registry. It is
desired to get either the Scotch plan or the English plan, and
it is possible to realise it in every thing but in the payment of
poor-rates, which, of course, cannot be expected in Ireland;
and, therefore, calling for the English plan would be an absur-
dity on the face of it, there having been no poor-rates there.
The goverument proposed a six-1110mile' resideirce prior to the
registry, a payment of the triennial poor-rates. That was
thought too short a period by the right bon. baronet, and he
substituted one year's residence, iu place of half a year. That
was his proposal. I am ready to accede to his proposal—of
course, I am speaking.of the substitute for the by-gone payment
of poor-rates. His proposal was to substitute an actual resi-
dence of twelve month. I adopt his substitute; and, adopting
his substitute in every other respect, I call on the house to give
to the people of Ireland either the English or the Scotch bill.
In the circumstances in whiett eland now is,,l would infinitely
prefer the Scotch sllslein. leis more simple, and it affords
materials which we have in Ireland. If the house would give
us the bill, with the Scotch municipal franchise, I will accept it
cheerfully and gratefully. • But if the house refuse us the bill,
which I. should prefer,'and give us the English Bill, identify us
with English institutions in this respect, I will adopt it at once,
although reluctantly, on account of its complications. But
will receive it as a matter of conciliation and justice to Ireland.
I want tither the one bill or the other.
Mr. El u SIE seconded the motion.

N9-111rernbcr 1.1,r cot.. vol.-IMP, IS after th. ootaor
bad pUt tee question and amendment, much laughter was ex-
cited on the opposition side of the .house, when Lord J. RUS-
SELL eventually rose to address it. The noble lord said he was
.nut aware how his rising on such a questiou could occasion any
laughter in the house. if it was toe opinion of the house that
the bill should be postponed for a short period, he would have
no objection to concede to the wishes of the house. (Hear,
bear.)
Sir B. PEEL conceived the noble lord had charge of the bill.
If he (Sir B. Peel) had made such a proposition at so advanced
a period of the session, it might naturally be inferred that be
wished to postpone the consideration of the bill for another
session. (Loud cheers.) If the noble lord made his election
to postpone the bill, standing there as the representative of the
government, the house could not interfere.
,( Hear, bear.) He
(Sir 11. Peel) certainly would not recommend its postpone-
ment. He would leave it to the noble lord to determine
whether he would potiaine the committee or not.
Lord Jontsi RUSSELL thought it would be much better for the
house to go into committee to-night. Considering the number
of inetut.iers present, be thought, whatever was determined in
committee, that an opportunity should be afforded to the hon.
and learned member of stating the facts to which he had ad-
verted, relative to the city of Dublin. He thought that the
facts showed a difference between the city of Dublin and other
towns in Ireland and this country, and he thought the bill
ought not to pass through the house without the case of Dublin
being considered. But the house might now go into committee,
and take the general question of the franchise.
The question was then put on the amendment, and negatived

thout a divi.ion ; and the house went jute committee

Tile house having gone into committee, the clauses, up to
five inclusive, were postponed; and the sixth was taken into
consideration. This, it will be recollected, fixes the qualifica-
tion for a municipal elector; and when the bill was lately be-
fore the house, £5 per annum was inserted as the amount of
rent required to he paid fur the purpose of the payer becoming
entitled to a vote.

Sir R. PEEL. rose and said—Sir, the hon. and learned gen-
tleman, the member for Dublin, has stated, that the speech de-
livered by ate in this house some days ago, expressive of a hope
that the three.questions respeCting Ireland, which had remained
so long unsettled, might beo brought to a satisfactory issue, had
been received in that country with unanimous satisfaction and
applause, but that I had subsequently spoken in a manner to
disappolut the
,hope which that speech had created. Now, I
aui sure it will be in the recollection of all who heard me on
the occasion to which the hon. and learned member alludes,
that. I distinctly stated, on that occasion, that I was willing to
withdraw my opposition to the Municipal Corporation Bill upon
grounds which I then fully explained. (Cheers.) Those
grounds were, that the municipal franchise in Ireland should be
a ER) franchise of a clear value to that amount, and that the
test of that value should be the.test of rating. Upon that point
there could be no mistake. (Cheers.) I, therefore, again ap-
peal to the liberal feeling and considerate judgment of the
house, if this proposal might not to be adopted, as moderate,
reasonable,. and just. (Cheers.) Let not this question be
looked upon as a party question, or as one in which it is
intended by me to offer any insult to Ireland. (Cheers.)
only call upon the house to hear my arguments with attention,
and consider them with deliberation. I adhere to the proposi-
tion I wade 011 the former night, because I have been convinced,
by subsequent deliberation, that it is a just and reasonableone.
But it has beeu objected to we, that I am going to raise the
poor man's franchise its Ireland. No! I am going to make a
new franchise altogether,— nut going to raise the amount of any
qualification, unless it had'heretefore been previously unfairly
taken at far less than it was sworn to be. (Hear, hear.) Then,
assuredly, I am going to raise it to the amount to which it pro-
fesses to be, and which it ought to be. (Hear, hear.) I utterly
'discraThrisatirdesrre- to combine to Monlipoliie for any party the
influence in corporate affairs. I also decidedly disclaim any
desire to establish a virtual £l-1 franchise. I believe that we
shall find, that what I have.proposed will be fully sufficient in
the way of precaution,—occultation for 12 months, residence for
6 months, and qualification by the poor-rata about to be esta-
blished; there being no other equable test that can he rendered.
available in Ireland, I have attempted to show that the £lO
franchise is neither unreasouable in itself nor unnecessary, nor
unsupported by precedent in England and Scotland; and that
in these eleven towns it will not give the Protestants or the pro-
fessors of any religious faith an undue preponderance. The
measure. such as it is, is one of mutual concession and corn-.
promise; for I was called on to make sacrifices as well as you,
and feel in so doing I have done thy duty. If you accept it—
(Cries of "Never")—it may pass into a raw that may lay the
foundations ,of peace and gum! will in Ireland, and eusure'for
the towns that good local government which is so much to be
desired for the welfare of all parties, and which it new rests
with you to -attain. (Cheers, and cries of "Never" from
Messrs. O'Connell, Shed, &c.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL very much regretted that the right hon.
baronet had, after the consideration he had bestowed on this
subject thought proper to persevere his proposition. The
right hon. baronet was correct in stating, that those outhe mi
niiterial side of the house did notagretr to his former proposition
At, adopt the £lt) rate for England, but the objection was not
that the rate was various in different parishes. He ( Lord John
Russell) had said that if it were adopted great numbers of per-
sons would'be disfranchised, to whom the government honestly
intended to bestow the franchise. As to the Scotch bill, whe-
ther the franchise adopted under it was the best that could have
been chosen or not, he was net then prepared to argue, but if
the question were put to hint whether this bill should, with 're,
Bard to the'franchise, be made like the Scotch bill, or whether
even the Scsoch franchise should he extended, 'he must candidly
confess that he should rather be inclined to agree to the latter
,
proposition, (Cheers.) With reen rd to the English municipal
act, they might to ii in vain for any £lO franchise. acceinpaaied
with a rate ; and he must he allowed to say, that, as far as any
precedent or former sanction was concerned: the present pre-
position of the right bon. gentleman involved a qualification
higher than that of the vote for an English member of parlia
ment, or for English or Scotch municipal ceuncillors. (Heiti.)
,The right heti. gentleman had said that he had knowu many
instances of the £lO franchise for members of parliament having
been ahuSed. He (Lord J. Russell) would not
,argue that point
on the present occasion. ( Hear.) He was ready to admit that
rating should be taken as a test of the qualification fur the fran-
chise under this-bill,--(cheers)—Lut nut a LlTratitle. (Hear )

He should haye been content, so anxious was he to come to an
amicable adjustment of this nuestiou—(hear)— either with some
diminution of the proposed £lO franchise, or some modification
of the £5 frauchise;—(hear)—but merely to rise and make a
proposition with the certainty of having it rejected by the hon.
gentlemen at the other side of the bolise would he idle on his
part—(cheers from the ministerial side)—and he must therefOre
content himself with simply oppoiing thy £lO franchise of the
hon. gentleman. (Cheering.)
Sir E. StiGDEN was understood to argue, that a person claim-
ing to 'vote for municipal Coducillors in 'lteland should not
merely occupy, as the test of his qualification, a house rated un-
der the poor law at £lO a-year, but that he shOuld for such
house pay a clear rent of £lO after the deduction of all other
charges, &c. connected with it.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL contended. that the effect of the
proposition of his right bon. friend would be to raise tl?e fran-
chise higher in Ireland than in Scotland and iu 'England. The
right him. gentleman opposite had contended for a test of value,
and that such test should be the assessment. Now, as in the
assessment 'allowance necessarily would be Made for a deduc-
tion for outgoiugs, taxes, repairs, insurances, and- similar
charges, it would necessarily follow, that the than who paid ten
pounds a-year rent would nut be rated at more than eight
pounds; so that, if -tieing rated at ten pounds were to be made
the test of value, one'-half of those who would be otherwise en-
titled to vote would be disfranchised. 'ln the Irish po6r law bill
a dedio•tion was made for all outgoings for repairs and in-
surances; and though £lO ii.-year was the Parliamentary fran-
chise, if the proposed test was adopted, it would not be the
municipal franchise.
Sir W. FOLLETT said, they were'all agreed as to the want of
some test of qualification. -(Hear.) But then it was urged
from the other side, that to take the assessment of the pours'
rate as a test would have the. effect of raising the value of the
franchise above £10; but that they had no objection to any
mode which would be free from this disadvantage.
Mr. SHEIL declared that he, like Sir Robert Peel, desired
"uniformity" in the matter of the municipal franchise; but he
looked to a " nobler uniformity" than that contemplated by the
right hon. baroner—he looked to uniformity, not between various
towns in Ireland, but to uniformity between Ireland and
England.. The whole conduct of the conservatives indicated a
desire to depress the Roman Catholics of Ireland.
Sir-R. PEEL begged to repeat that hp only desired a bone
fide £lO franchise. He did nut desire to increase the franchise,
If it could be proved_ that the proposed test of rating would
really raise the proposed qualification of £lo above £lO, there
'iwas no fair modification of the test to which he would not
consent.

Mr. O'CoNNELL declared that Sir Robert Peel had insulted
Ireland, hr accusing Irishmen of proneness to perjury; an im-
putation which Sir Robert, with much earnestness repelled.
The committee then divided, when there appeared—For the
clause, 286; against it, 266; majority, 20.
On the motion of Lord JOHN Rus,taa., the house. then re-
sumed.
Report to be received on Friday.